Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bcano Dec 01, 2010 17:31:38	The ending of R.A. Salvatore's novel Passage to Dawn features a touching scene in which a messenger spirit appears to Drizzt Do'Urden to inform him that his father's spirit is in a better place. All well and good, but it is problematic in face of established Realms lore, which holds that the souls of traitors to their faith (the False) and those without faith (the Faithless) are sent to Myrkl's/Cyric's/Kelemvor's domain for punishment. Zaknafein paid lip service to Lloth, which makes him the very definition of a False soul. Has this ever come up in board discussions?
#2 sfdragon Dec 01, 2010 21:28:59	shakes a big stick. Zak didn't worship Lolth...... I doubt he worshiped any of the drow deities.
#3 18DELTA Dec 02, 2010 2:48:46	Mask or V??;)
#4 Jorunhast Dec 02, 2010 10:04:58	The ending of R.A. Salvatore's novel Passage to Dawn features a touching scene in which a messenger spirit appears to Drizzt Do'Urden to inform him that his father's spirit is in a better place. All well and good, but it is problematic in face of established Realms lore, which holds that the souls of traitors to their faith (the False) and those without faith (the Faithless) are sent to Myrkl's/Cyric's/Kelemvor's domain for punishment. Zaknafein paid lip service to Lloth, which makes him the very definition of a False soul. Has this ever come up in board discussions?  It's unclear from the books if Zaknafein worshipped any deity other than Lolth (if so, it was off-page so far as I know), but he definitely didn't worship Lolth.  He feared Lolth and her drow priestesses, but in the books Zaknafein never openly woshipped Lolth.  His hesitance in killing spiders -might- constitute a form of lip service to Lolth.  But "False" implies betraying a formerly worshipped deity. It -is- possible that he was judged False, however, if he gave lip service to Lolth early in his life and later never took up faith in Eilistraee or Vhaeraun.  If he was judged False, he would've been made one of Myrkul's servants in the City of the Dead and then later re-judged (but still False) and became one of Kelemvor's servants.  Worship of Eilistraee seems unlikely, but it's quite possible he worshipped Vhaeraun.  He might also have worshipped a non-elven deity, though this seems unlikely. But we just don't know. Definitely, we can say that he wasn't with Lolth and he also wasn't in the Wall of the Faithless, because in Passage to Dawn he says to Drizzt that his afterlife is essentially "better than one could imagine." The Wall has always been described in lore as a punishment, and Zak (from what he said) he wasn't being punished. Ultimately, we don't know quite where his spirit resides.  Personally, I tend to think that Zaknafein worshipped Vhaeraun quietly and it was just never stated on-page in any novel.  Being highly ranked and well-educated in a noble house, he would have known about Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. So I'd speculate that Zak's soul went first to Vhaeraun, ended up later with Eilistraee when she killed Vhaeraun and took his portfolios, and eventually found his final rest with Corellon when Eilistraee gave up her divinity and Corellon took over her realm. All of that would be exceptionally difficult to explain in a novel such that it meshed well into Drizzt's story and the reader didn't go "whaa?", so it'll probably never be explained exactly where Zak's soul ended up.  Whether he was a servant in the City of the Dead or ended up with Vhaeraun, either of those could be described as "better than one can imagine" and certainly better than being a male in Lolth's afterlife, so it's really up to the reader to decide.
#5 Mirtek Dec 02, 2010 15:51:35	I think that Salvatore simply disliked how the FR afterlife works and thus ignored it.
#6 bcano Dec 02, 2010 18:01:56	It's unclear from the books if Zaknafein worshipped any deity other than Lolth (if so, it was off-page so far as I know), but he definitely didn't worship Lolth.  He feared Lolth and her drow priestesses, but in the books Zaknafein never openly woshipped Lolth.  His hesitance in killing spiders -might- constitute a form of lip service to Lolth.  But "False" implies betraying a formerly worshipped deity. I largely agree, but I remember the judgement of Gwydion the Quick at the hands of Cyric and Torm in the Prince of Lies.  Gwydion claimed to be a follower of Torm, but was unable to read the words writ upon his guantlets, and thus proved his faith to be mere lip service. I think that Zaknafein probably pad lip service to Lloth to avoid getting placed on the sacrificial altars, but you are absolutely correct that we don't know for a fact whether or not he worshipped another god in secret.  I don't want to assume facts not in evidence, so I figured that Zak was Faithless or False at best. I think that Salvatore simply disliked how the FR afterlife works and thus ignored it. And of course this is by far the most likely scenario than an elaborate "Zak secretly worshipped Corellon/Vhaeraun/Eilistraee.  A theme in a lot of Salvatore's work is the worth of individuals judged by nature and intent, rather than by deeds. The problem with that, as you pointed out, is that it is incompatible with Realms cosmology.  That was the entire point of the entire Time of Troubles/Prince of Lies/Trial of Cyric story arc; mortal souls in Faerun are dispensed in the afterlife based on their relationships with thier chosen dieties, not by their actions.  Don't get me wrong, I prefer Salvatore's theme to GodsNeedPrayerBadly, carrot and stick approach, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize the inconsistency when I see it. Plus, if a mortal soul gets a good home with a willing patron god, it does tend to undermine the entire plot of Mask of the Betrayer.
#7 ceridlocke Dec 02, 2010 20:05:24	He really seemed to enjoy killing priestesses of Lloth, that's a point towards Vhaeraun
#8 sfdragon Dec 02, 2010 21:45:31	He could of worshipped TEmpus........
#9 joe_puff74 Dec 02, 2010 22:02:54	Well Killing priestess of Lolth is not only a point for Vhaeraunians, but also for the Seldarine, Gruumsh, Ghaunadaur, & Elistraee. As the Dark Elf Trilogy was written in 2E, I always believed it as once a person left a particular faith, and proved themselves worthy (such as Drizzt's test of Melikki when he petted the unicorn), that their new god would allow them their place in their new "afterlife". Of course being "DM" of his "world" it really was Salvatore's desicion. But I believed that maybe he worshipped one of the (or all of the) Seladarine, and constantly proved his loyalty/worth by killing Drow Priestesses.  And, thus, "buying" his way into Arvandor (Elf "Heaven", for those who dont know). Maybe a less crude and more fair form of indulgences sold by the Catholic Church during Medieval/Rennaissance times. This is because Elistraee (by 2E standards) was also a matriarchal deity. And Vhaeraun required open exclusion from Lolthite priestesses. For the Drow that can do neither, there is Gruumsh, Ghaunadar, & the Seldarine.
#10 Nai_Calus Dec 03, 2010 15:35:44	To be fair, everyone likes killing priestesses of Lolth. Including other priestesses of Lolth. I'm all for it being Vhaeraun, though, because Vhaeraun is awesome.
#11 joe_puff74 Dec 03, 2010 21:35:03	I can agree with you on that. Maybe he was pardoned by Lolth... I read somewhere that DSrizzt may be an exile, but he is the only drow in highest favor of Lolth, because (during & after the Time of Troubles) he cause so much sh*t with the drow houses that they fel;l apart, killed each other, & themselves. Perhaps it is the same case with Zaknafein, just a bit different since he wasn't an exile. But it would have to be quiet, though. If either of the two had ever found out, they would have pitched themselves off of a bridge (in Zak's case, it would have been a bit sooner.
#12 Nai_Calus Dec 03, 2010 22:56:59	What, the 'Drizzt is Lolth's Chosen' theory? I have to admit that one makes me giggle. Evilly. >D
#13 sfdragon Dec 05, 2010 1:26:24	Zak was pardoned by Lolth when Lolth giggles
#14 bcano Dec 05, 2010 7:08:36	Not even the dieties of chaos can get someone into their realms after death if they're Faithless or False.  For example, when Cyric drove Alton mad and got him to turn against Mystra, he tried to claim to Kelemvor that Alton's madness made him one of Cyric's faithful, but that didn't fly with Kelemvor.