It's your campaign. It's your world.
There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that Gith's rebellion started in Realmspace around that time on the planet Glyth, the 6th planet in Toril's solar system.
Glyth has long been an illithid planet. It was colonized by illithids long ago as part of their vast, star-spanning, multiversal empire.
Don't give too much credence to the estimates that date the rebellion at only 2,000 years ago, it is most certainly incorrect, the number of Vlakiths alone would seem to preclude this date. Although a precise dating is probably impossible due to several factors.
1) you cannot accurately synchronize time between universes. There is no one-to-one correspondence between time in one universe and time in another. Just as they do not share spatial coordinates, neither do they share temporal coordinates. For instance Elminster has a portal that connects to Earth in our current day (presumably 2008) but he also has a portal that connects to Yellowstone national park circa 1894. And the Imaskari stole slaves from earth through portals that connected to different time periods. While it is a convention to think of timelines as aligned between universes, they really aren't. I could discuss this at length, but suffice it to say that dating a war that took place across many universes will lead to contradicting dates due to differences between timescales used.
2) Consider also that the illithids are thought to have colonized their empire from the future into the past. Illithids are said to have come from the end of time, or at least from a point in the far distant future. This suggests the Gith rebellion could have been a time-spanning endeavor that raged backwards through time as well. Perhaps some major battles in the war did break out around 2,000 years ago. Illithids may have even first colonized (or recolonized) certain planets around 2,000 years ago but then colonized backwards in time to other planets. No doubt this introduced many paradoxes as well that can probably never be unraveled.
I think it is pretty safe to date the rebellion with respect to Realmspace at circa -11,000 for the reasons below.
The Gith peoples were originally humans many, many generations ago, but have diverged quite significantly from their human root stock to become a separate, oviparous species.
The original human root stock came from the planet Pharagos. If I recall, there are still humans that live on Pharagos that look like your typical human race and bear little resemblance to their Githyanki cousins.
These humans were bred as slaves by the Illithids and transplanted throughout the multiverse to serve their mindflayer masters on the far flung worlds of the Illithid empire.
Presumably the characteristics of the modern gith peoples were selected for by the Illithids to promote either better servants or better tasting brains.
The planet Glyth in Toril's solar system was one of the illithid colony worlds. I had put forward the theory awhile back that the Gith rebellion may have actually started on Glyth. This theory is based on only a very few clues from lore, and is by no means confirmed anywhere (so far) in sourcebooks.
1) it suggests in the Guide to the Astral Plane that Gith was named after her homeworld. While Gith and Glyth are not exactly alike, they sound enough alike that it is conceivable they were originally the same word that has diverged over the course of 12,000 years through linguistic drift. Or possibly they are the same word with slightly different grammatical declension, for instance the "l" infix might indicate a genitive case, or perhaps might be an animate or female gender marker.
2) Illithid refugees from Glyth first colonized Toril in spelljammer ships that arrived around -11,000 DR, more than 12,000 years ago. It has never been said what the refugees were fleeing, but it was very likely the Gith rebellion.
3) A powerful clue in dating the rebellion lies in the number of Githyanki queens. All named Vlakith, ruling in an unbroken succession from a time shortly after the rebellion dating to the pact with Ephelomon. Considering the number of the current Vlaakith CLVII, and the fact she had ruled for a thousand years (as of approximately 1370 DR give or take a few years) and no other queen has ruled as long as she, you get a formula of 1,000 years + 156x years where "x" equals the average reign of a Vlakith.
Assuming the date of -11,000 is correct, solving for x gives an average reign of approx. 73 years. Though some may have had very short reigns--I expect one or more was assassinated by her heir shortly after taking the throne--others, no doubt, reigned for much longer. Considering that the Githyanki lifespan is something like 200 years (based on Githzerai lifespan given in the Planewalker's Handbook if I recall) an average reign of 73 years is totally within reason.
Since the Astral is timeless and people don't age while living there, a Vlakith can easily live past her mortal span indefinitely, even without resorting to lichdom as the current queen has. In fact, I don't know of a reference to any other Vlakith becoming a lich. We are told explicitly though that no Vlakith has reigned as long as Vlakith CLVII's thousand years. I assume, therefore that most every Vlakith to reign has done so by killing her predecessor. Though I suppose it is possible that some died in combat or due to the machinations of other factions.
One of the easiest ways to kill an older Vlakith would be to gate her to another plane. Her age would catch up with her immediately and she would simply die of "natural causes." Of course I am sure poison, or the well placed stiletto would suffice just as well. 73 years seems like a very reasonable estimate for an average length of reign. That puts the rebellion circa -11,000 DR. To go back only 2,000 years would mean an average reign of only 6.4 years. That seems way to short. Of course, since we are told no Vlakith lived as long as 1,000 years, that gives us an upper limit of 157,000 years as the very furthest back the rebellion could have happened, but that is way too far back to consider.
Anyway, 12,000 + years ago is at least within the ballpark of when the rebellion could have happened, which makes Glyth a very good candidate for the start of the rebellion.
I especially like the theory that the current Vlaakith is the first lich one. Might her oppressive means of keeping control (i.e. soul eating every 17th level+ githyanki's) be a relatively recent practise aswell?
I'd say that the rebellion happened before Ao created Realmspace, in the times when humans first appeared
but that's in my own universe
''refugees from Glyth'' doesn't mean that they fled from Gith, in fact it's unlikely cause I doubt the great illithid empire would just have a colony on Glyth and not touch Toril for over 20 000 years
could be anything, e.g. a regular githyanki attack on the typical illithid planet, their internal conflicts ...
I'd say that the rebellion happened before Ao created Realmspace, in the times when humans first appeared
I suppose it is possible, Ed Greenwood has said that Faerûnian sages believe that Toril was created about 70,000 years ago. Note that he says "sages believe" which is not to say that they are necessarily correct. If Toril has a divine origin (and spelljamming observations would seem to support that theory) then 70,000 years is as reliable an estimate as any. Although Ed's statement is grey enough that it does not preclude alternate origins, until a better dating is found I rely on the Faerûnian scholars as they tend to be pretty savy about such things.
So if you were to assume an average reign of 442 years (but never greater than 1,000) per Vlakith, then that pushes the rebellion back 70,000 to before Realmspace was created. But it can't go back more than 157,000 because that would mean every Vlakith had reigned as long as the lich queen and we know that can't be true. Of course you could play with time paradoxes to push the date farther into the past or even into the future, but to my view, pushing the rebellion that far back strains against acceptable parameters somewhat. I'm not saying it's not possible, but the -11,000 DR estimate seems the most plausible for me. Reasonable people may differ, I have discussed this a few times on the boards and other people have their own favorite datings for reasons that are similarly well reasoned.
''refugees from Glyth'' doesn't mean that they fled from Gith
I agree with you there, I can't rule out other reasons for fleeing. The Gith rebellion is only my best guess, but the reason could have been disease, natural disaster, rampaging tarrasque, the Thoon schism, rogue elder brains, or other impetus.
in fact it's unlikely cause I doubt the great illithid empire would just have a colony on Glyth and not touch Toril for over 20 000 years
while I agree there could be other reasons, I do not agree that the Gith rebellion is unlikey in fact I think it is the strongest explanation. But it is a good question as to why the illithids did not invade Toril after establishing a base so long ago on Glyth.
The answer may depend on when they first established that colony on Glyth. If it was between -30,000 to -24,000 DR then it may have been because dragons ruled Toril at the time and thus the mind-flayers perhaps found Toril too dangerous to colonize.
If it was after the Reign of Dragons then it may have been because the elven nations had spelljamming technology and were able to repel the illithid invasion. Elven spelljamming technology goes back thousands of years. Who knows, it may have been a war with the illithids that first caused the elves to craft their spelljamming fleets!
However, spelljamming technology goes back to at least the Aearee, over 31,000 years ago as the Aearee are thought to have colonized the planet Coliar (2nd planet in Toril's solar system) during the period that they ruled Toril's skies.
You could also posit a few other theories as to why illithids didn't invade including divine intervention, or a powerful spell along the lines of the Imaskari god barrier, or even just a lack of suitable human populations at that time with which to feed and propagate themselves. Note that humans did not tend to congregate in big populous nations until after -9,000 DR.
All of which is to say that I think there are valid explanations why illithids may have colonized Glyth but not Toril.
:coolcthul
Vlaakith CLVI turns out also to have transformed herself into a lich and she reigned over 500 years. Between the last 2 Vlaakiths, that's at least 1500+ years right there, with 155 more Vlaakiths to account for.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric)
:88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul A little more research led me to discover that Dragon #355 has some info on Vlaakith CLVI (156) immediate predecessor of the current lich-queen. She was killed by the very first devourer.
The devourer in the 3.5 monster manual or the drow name for illithid? I guess the former unless the first devourer was the first uindead lich illithid or somesuch.
Vlaakith CLVI turns out also to have transformed herself into a lich and she reigned over 500 years. Between the last 2 Vlaakiths, that's at least 1500+ years right there, with 155 more Vlaakiths to account for.
I don't follow. Why at least 1500 years again? Did Vlaakith 155 rule as the first lich and for 1000 years?
I don't follow. Why at least 1500 years again? Did Vlaakith 155 rule as the first lich and for 1000 years?
He is saying that Vlaakitth CLVI was a lich for 500 years and Vlaakith CLVII is a lich for 1000 at least. That is where he is getting the 1500 years from.
The Gith essentially are responceable for the saving the multiverse from becoming enslaved to brainsucking squidheads, so Vlaakith and Zerthimon should be appeased some with yearly Fearunian poetry.
-Do one of the 3XX issues of DRAGON/DUNGEON have anything relevant? I recall something about the "Githyanki Invasion" inter-title promotion, discussing Githyanki in DRAGON, and then Githyanki adventures in DUNGEON.
The "Incursion" story-arc ran through the July 2003 issues of DRAGON [#309] and DUNGEON [#100].
I have those issues though I do not recall off hand, any discussion of the Gith history to a great level of detail.
OP, can you give a small blurb about your campaign? I always enjoy campaigns from the past is there any particular event you are building the plot around?
