The Heavens Above Toril - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The Heavens Above Toril

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Rils
Jan 17, 2009 17:14:35 Quick question - I saw the little box on page 85 of the 4e FRCG titled "The Heavens Above Toril," where it mentions the moon and the seven visible planets in the night sky. Beyond the single word descriptions given there (ie "dusky Anadia, green Coliar," etc), do we know anything else about them? Are there any references to these planets outside of this book?

I don't recall anything about it from 2e, but I missed the 3e books so I'm not sure what's in there...

This question is related to a Starlock I'm putting together, so any other info about the FR cosmos would be helpful as well... Thanks!
#2
Mulhull
Jan 17, 2009 17:22:35
Quick question - I saw the little box on page 85 of the 4e FRCG titled "The Heavens Above Toril," where it mentions the moon and the seven visible planets in the night sky. Beyond the single word descriptions given there (ie "dusky Anadia, green Coliar," etc), do we know anything else about them? Are there any references to these planets outside of this book?

I don't recall anything about it from 2e, but I missed the 3e books so I'm not sure what's in there...

This question is related to a Starlock I'm putting together, so any other info about the FR cosmos would be helpful as well... Thanks!

I remember in Spelljammer a planet within Realmspace populated by a bunch of mind flayers.
#3
ranielk
Jan 17, 2009 18:38:14 There were the Tears of Selune, little asteroids in the wake of the moon, which were inhabited. That was mostly as a draw for the Realmsian characters to get into Spelljammer. There was a Spelljamming port and a whole market up on one of the Tears. Other than that, I don't recall anything else.
#4
faraer
Jan 17, 2009 18:44:16 That sentence was paraphrased from the 1993 campaign set, which in turn was based on information in SJR2 Realmspace. Other Realms sky lore is scattered around; FR13 Anauroch describes the night sky as seen by the Bedine, here's a good but not wholly canonical article, and here's a recent Candlekeep.com thread. There are Realms-related Spelljammer articles in Dragon #159 and Polyhedron #125.
#5
keveras
Jan 18, 2009 7:58:01
I remember in Spelljammer a planet within Realmspace populated by a bunch of mind flayers.

Yeah, along with their human slaves. That would be Glyth ;)
#6
gray_richardson
Jan 18, 2009 18:18:08
Beyond the single word descriptions given there (ie "dusky Anadia, green Coliar," etc), do we know anything else about them? Are there any references to these planets outside of this book?

There was a whole 2e supplement entitled Realmspace that detailed Toril's solar system.

You can buy this as a legal download from various places see here: http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/spelljammer/v5748btpy7msq&source=search
#7
iakhovas
Jan 20, 2009 14:34:49 Even if you have a copy of the old Realmspace supplement, I still recommend you check out this link over at spelljammer.org

http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/Realmspace/
#8
lord_karsus
Jan 22, 2009 10:16:28 -Realmspace is one of my favorite sourcebooks.
#9
markustay63
Jan 22, 2009 23:46:20 I tried to find that great Spelljammer fansite, which has a section on Realmspace, and instead I found an illegal server with a copy of said tome.

You better snap it up, because now that I have pointed it out, it will probably be shut-down tomorrow.

I own the tome in hardcopy, and its pretty handy, and I'm just pointing that out so the powers-that-be know I didn't have any need to download that myself.

I'm an honest guy. ;)

Edit: I just noticed Iakhovas already listed the site I was looking for. :embarrass
#10
lord_karsus
Jan 23, 2009 10:47:32 -You really probably shouldn't link to that.
#11
markustay63
Jan 23, 2009 11:33:28 You're right, but I just typed in 'Spelljammer Realmspace" into my search engine and that was like number three or so.

Its not like I created it, and it was extremely easy to find.

And besides, WotC should thank me - now they can send them a notice and tell them to 'cease and desist'...

Those ebil pirates...

Edit: Link Removed.
#12
lord_karsus
Jan 23, 2009 11:42:56 -I know, I know. Just don't want you to get in trouble.
#13
markustay63
Jan 23, 2009 15:15:51 But I live for getting in trouble. :D
#14
BRJN
Feb 20, 2009 23:40:46 There is a vignette in Grand History of the Realms where a dragon leaves the most valuable thing it knows to whoever can decode his riddle. In effect, he claims that at a certain location, a Death Star like magic weapon (my interpretation) was tested, creating the Tears of Selune.

Maybe the odd-shaped planet was also hit.

Totally your option, but perhaps other things were shot by the cannon before it broke / was destroyed / drew too much outside attention / whatever.

You could find a way to introduce your Starlock to that riddle, thereby unlocking your Epic Destiny. ;)
#15
lord_karsus
Feb 21, 2009 0:35:29 -MT, I know, is an adherent of the "Dracolaser" concept.

-Me, personally, I don't like it. Whatever it was, it certainly seems to exist, or rather, existed, regardless.
#16
rauric
Feb 21, 2009 5:56:56 To me that concept does not work too well for FR. EB maybe but not FR.
#17
gray_richardson
Feb 21, 2009 6:33:24 The "draco laser" bit in the Grand History was written by Eric Boyd if I recall. Eric likes to insert red herrings into lore. His pieces are often imparted to the reader in the voice of an unreliable narrator. Especially when Eric's "author" is recounting information of a historical nature, the information is very likely to be false or contain only half-truths or corrupted and/or conflated history. I think the "draco laser" theory is intended to be such dubious history.

In the same way that real-world authors like Plato, who described Atlantis; or Herodotus, who wrote about the Lotophagi; or the conquistadors, who returned from the Americas spreading tales of El Dorado, Cibola and other legendary "cities of gold," Eric Boyd loves to have his Faerûnian "authorities" tell such tall-tales that must be taken with a grain of salt (or a whole salt-lick). And there are a couple of pieces by Eric in the Grand History that struck me as amusing and fanciful fabrications. I can almost see Eric winking with tongue-in-cheek when I read what he puts in the mouths (or pens) of some of his characters.

That said, I think Eric inserts such lore with the intent that there is an outside chance of the info being true or partially true. I think he likes to insert things that other authors or DM's can pick up on and develop or use later if they like.

Specifically with the draco laser tale, the dragon who wrote the information seemed to be writing about information which he could not have had first hand knowledge of. The missive is written with such braggadocio and self-aggrandizement that it seems more like racial propaganda to me. But then again, it sounds like it could be the start of an interesting quest for some lucky adventurer that might lead to something noteworthy--if not exactly as billed by the dragon.
#18
lord_karsus
Feb 21, 2009 12:31:24
Specifically with the draco laser tale, the dragon who wrote the information seemed to be writing about information which he could not have had first hand knowledge of.

-This is not necessarily true.
#19
gray_richardson
Feb 22, 2009 11:51:42 It is necessarily true, in that the word "seems" is meant to convey my subjective opinion of the dragon's credibility. And it is true that the dragon's story does not hold water for me.

To be even more specific the dragon states: "Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons." That would place the time frame circa -24,000 DR. Last I looked, dragons only live naturally to about 1,200 years. Even employing life extension techniques, it would be extremely improbable for the dragon to have survived so long as to have had first-hand knowledge of an event from 236 centuries prior.

Additionally the dragon goes on to say: "My ancestors tried to focus the Weave into a weapon of unparalleled might that could shatter the Drifting Stars into clouds of rubble in the heavens above." This seems to be evidence that the dragon is only imparting received wisdom that was passed down to him by his ancestors or that he read somewhere or thinks that he figured out from clues he found somewhere.

I therefore submit that the dragon's wording of the message implies he was not a witness to the event and does not have first hand knowledge of it. The testimony is therefore hearsay and thus not reliable, even if he believes his statement to be true.

In addition, his account conflicts with the -31,000 DR entry in Grand History which dates the formation of the Sea of Fallen Stars to the Tearfall event that wiped out the Batrachi. This corresponds to the birth of the dragon race, who hatched from eggs that either fell from the sky with Tearfall or that were altered in their nests somehow by the event.

For these reasons, the message written on the dragon's scales strikes me as dubious in the extreme, although an interesting tale to be sure. But that doesn't mean that there isn't something interesting going on with the Hills of the Seven Lost Gods. Certainly an intriguing enough story to motivate a group of adventurers to investigate.
#20
lord_karsus
Feb 22, 2009 13:02:50 -We don't know much about Kisonraathiisar. We can't say for certain anything about what he knows, what he doesn't know, what he's done, what he hasn't done, etc.
#21
gray_richardson
Feb 23, 2009 1:53:23 I didn't hold up anything as "certain" except that the dragon's story was intriguing. I presented everything as my subjective evaluation of the dragon's credibility. There is plenty of information within the dragon's missive to draw reasonable inferences about what the dragon knew or did not know. And what I reasonably infer (your mileage may vary) is that the dragon's story is bogus for the reasons stated very clearly above.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Rils Jan 17, 2009 17:14:35	Quick question - I saw the little box on page 85 of the 4e FRCG titled "The Heavens Above Toril," where it mentions the moon and the seven visible planets in the night sky. Beyond the single word descriptions given there (ie "dusky Anadia, green Coliar," etc), do we know anything else about them? Are there any references to these planets outside of this book? I don't recall anything about it from 2e, but I missed the 3e books so I'm not sure what's in there... This question is related to a Starlock I'm putting together, so any other info about the FR cosmos would be helpful as well... Thanks!
#2 Mulhull Jan 17, 2009 17:22:35	Quick question - I saw the little box on page 85 of the 4e FRCG titled "The Heavens Above Toril," where it mentions the moon and the seven visible planets in the night sky. Beyond the single word descriptions given there (ie "dusky Anadia, green Coliar," etc), do we know anything else about them? Are there any references to these planets outside of this book? I don't recall anything about it from 2e, but I missed the 3e books so I'm not sure what's in there... This question is related to a Starlock I'm putting together, so any other info about the FR cosmos would be helpful as well... Thanks! I remember in Spelljammer a planet within Realmspace populated by a bunch of mind flayers.
#3 ranielk Jan 17, 2009 18:38:14	There were the Tears of Selune, little asteroids in the wake of the moon, which were inhabited. That was mostly as a draw for the Realmsian characters to get into Spelljammer. There was a Spelljamming port and a whole market up on one of the Tears. Other than that, I don't recall anything else.
#4 faraer Jan 17, 2009 18:44:16	That sentence was paraphrased from the 1993 campaign set, which in turn was based on information in SJR2 Realmspace. Other Realms sky lore is scattered around; FR13 Anauroch describes the night sky as seen by the Bedine, here's a good but not wholly canonical article, and here's a recent Candlekeep.com thread. There are Realms-related Spelljammer articles in Dragon #159 and Polyhedron #125.
#5 keveras Jan 18, 2009 7:58:01	I remember in Spelljammer a planet within Realmspace populated by a bunch of mind flayers. Yeah, along with their human slaves. That would be Glyth ;)
#6 gray_richardson Jan 18, 2009 18:18:08	Beyond the single word descriptions given there (ie "dusky Anadia, green Coliar," etc), do we know anything else about them? Are there any references to these planets outside of this book? There was a whole 2e supplement entitled *Realmspace* that detailed Toril's solar system. You can buy this as a legal download from various places see here: http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/spelljammer/v5748btpy7msq&source=search
#7 iakhovas Jan 20, 2009 14:34:49	Even if you have a copy of the old Realmspace supplement, I still recommend you check out this link over at spelljammer.org http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/Realmspace/
#8 lord_karsus Jan 22, 2009 10:16:28	-Realmspace is one of my favorite sourcebooks.
#9 markustay63 Jan 22, 2009 23:46:20	I tried to find that great Spelljammer fansite, which has a section on Realmspace, and instead I found an illegal server with a copy of said tome. You better snap it up, because now that I have pointed it out, it will probably be shut-down tomorrow. I own the tome in hardcopy, and its pretty handy, and I'm just pointing that out so the powers-that-be know I didn't have any need to download that myself. I'm an honest guy. ;) Edit: I just noticed Iakhovas already listed the site I was looking for. :embarrass
#10 lord_karsus Jan 23, 2009 10:47:32	-You really probably shouldn't link to that.
#11 markustay63 Jan 23, 2009 11:33:28	You're right, but I just typed in 'Spelljammer Realmspace" into my search engine and that was like number three or so. Its not like I created it, and it was extremely easy to find. And besides, WotC should thank me - now they can send them a notice and tell them to 'cease and desist'... Those ebil pirates... Edit: Link Removed.
#12 lord_karsus Jan 23, 2009 11:42:56	-I know, I know. Just don't want you to get in trouble.
#13 markustay63 Jan 23, 2009 15:15:51	But I live for getting in trouble. :D
#14 BRJN Feb 20, 2009 23:40:46	There is a vignette in Grand History of the Realms where a dragon leaves the most valuable thing it knows to whoever can decode his riddle. In effect, he claims that at a certain location, a Death Star like magic weapon (my interpretation) was tested, creating the Tears of Selune. Maybe the odd-shaped planet was also hit. Totally your option, but perhaps other things were shot by the cannon before it broke / was destroyed / drew too much outside attention / whatever. You could find a way to introduce your Starlock to that riddle, thereby unlocking your Epic Destiny. ;)
#15 lord_karsus Feb 21, 2009 0:35:29	-MT, I know, is an adherent of the "Dracolaser" concept. -Me, personally, I don't like it. Whatever it was, it certainly seems to exist, or rather, existed, regardless.
#16 rauric Feb 21, 2009 5:56:56	To me that concept does not work too well for FR. EB maybe but not FR.
#17 gray_richardson Feb 21, 2009 6:33:24	The "draco laser" bit in the Grand History was written by Eric Boyd if I recall. Eric likes to insert red herrings into lore. His pieces are often imparted to the reader in the voice of an unreliable narrator. Especially when Eric's "author" is recounting information of a historical nature, the information is very likely to be false or contain only half-truths or corrupted and/or conflated history. I think the "draco laser" theory is intended to be such dubious history. In the same way that real-world authors like Plato, who described Atlantis; or Herodotus, who wrote about the Lotophagi; or the conquistadors, who returned from the Americas spreading tales of El Dorado, Cibola and other legendary "cities of gold," Eric Boyd loves to have his Faerûnian "authorities" tell such tall-tales that must be taken with a grain of salt (or a whole salt-lick). And there are a couple of pieces by Eric in the Grand History that struck me as amusing and fanciful fabrications. I can almost see Eric winking with tongue-in-cheek when I read what he puts in the mouths (or pens) of some of his characters. That said, I think Eric inserts such lore with the intent that there is an outside chance of the info being true or partially true. I think he likes to insert things that other authors or DM's can pick up on and develop or use later if they like. Specifically with the draco laser tale, the dragon who wrote the information seemed to be writing about information which he could not have had first hand knowledge of. The missive is written with such braggadocio and self-aggrandizement that it seems more like racial propaganda to me. But then again, it sounds like it could be the start of an interesting quest for some lucky adventurer that might lead to something noteworthy--if not exactly as billed by the dragon.
#18 lord_karsus Feb 21, 2009 12:31:24	Specifically with the draco laser tale, the dragon who wrote the information seemed to be writing about information which he could not have had first hand knowledge of. -This is not necessarily true.
#19 gray_richardson Feb 22, 2009 11:51:42	It is necessarily true, in that the word "seems" is meant to convey my subjective opinion of the dragon's credibility. And it is true that the dragon's story does not hold water for me. To be even more specific the dragon states: "Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons." That would place the time frame circa -24,000 DR. Last I looked, dragons only live naturally to about 1,200 years. Even employing life extension techniques, it would be extremely improbable for the dragon to have survived so long as to have had first-hand knowledge of an event from 236 centuries prior. Additionally the dragon goes on to say: "My ancestors tried to focus the Weave into a weapon of unparalleled might that could shatter the Drifting Stars into clouds of rubble in the heavens above." This seems to be evidence that the dragon is only imparting received wisdom that was passed down to him by his ancestors or that he read somewhere or thinks that he figured out from clues he found somewhere. I therefore submit that the dragon's wording of the message implies he was not a witness to the event and does not have first hand knowledge of it. The testimony is therefore hearsay and thus not reliable, even if he believes his statement to be true. In addition, his account conflicts with the -31,000 DR entry in Grand History which dates the formation of the Sea of Fallen Stars to the Tearfall event that wiped out the Batrachi. This corresponds to the birth of the dragon race, who hatched from eggs that either fell from the sky with Tearfall or that were altered in their nests somehow by the event. For these reasons, the message written on the dragon's scales strikes me as dubious in the extreme, although an interesting tale to be sure. But that doesn't mean that there isn't something interesting going on with the Hills of the Seven Lost Gods. Certainly an intriguing enough story to motivate a group of adventurers to investigate.
#20 lord_karsus Feb 22, 2009 13:02:50	-We don't know much about Kisonraathiisar. We can't say for certain anything about what he knows, what he doesn't know, what he's done, what he hasn't done, etc.
#21 gray_richardson Feb 23, 2009 1:53:23	I didn't hold up anything as "certain" except that the dragon's story was intriguing. I presented everything as my subjective evaluation of the dragon's credibility. There is plenty of information within the dragon's missive to draw reasonable inferences about what the dragon knew or did not know. And what I reasonably infer (your mileage may vary) is that the dragon's story is bogus for the reasons stated very clearly above.