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| #1Mr_MiscellanyNov 21, 2011 13:07:54 | I’ve been following a discussion on Candlekeep’s forums where the OP asks how can a kingdom like Many-Arrows exist? The discussion has advanced to where there are two competing sides discussing, in effect, what is the nature of orcs? One side says Manny-Arrows can’t (and shouldn’t) exist, because the orcish deity Gruumsh advocates war and conquest and a King like Obould can’t engage in diplomacy or any kind of peace with neighboring lands and consider himself a true Orc. This side says orcs don’t farm, don’t do diplomacy or engage in peace-time activities and other actions that help to maintain any sort of civilization, and it’s all the 4E Realms fault for screwing things up (again). To me, this reads as: orcs are dumb and don’t take the long view. The other side says Obould can do whatever he wants, because orcs are intelligent, are good miners, can smith their own armor and weapons, can farm (that is, raise cattle) and keep slaves to do menial work for them—and cite game supplement sources to back up their view. Orcs, this side claims, can take the long view and still be in line with Gruumsh’s (and later Obould as Exarch) teachings, by establishing a kindom that can feed itself and so make war when it chooses, as opposed to forming hoards every other generation to go fighting due to starvation, overpopulation and the need to eat. So, are orcs in the Forgotten Realms always and forever feral, savage creatures that only care about what they can steal, eat and slay? Or do they have the capacity (and the desire) to order their activities and form something more than a tribal civilization? Which of these sides do you fall on? Are there other sides? How do you see the Realms (in general) with regard to Orcish Kingdoms? How are orcs depicted in your own Realms campaigns or campaigns you’ve played in?* As for me, I haven’t read the novels that talk about the Kingdom of Many-Arrows, but I really like that Salvatore has decided to tackle this head on. I think some orcs should have kingdoms in the Forgotten Realms (and so should Hobgoblins for pete’s sake!), so Many-Arrows can exist just fine, but other lands and other orcs should remain savage and tribal. *note: I ask multiple questions here because there isn’t one “right way” to view things. I hope any discussion doesn’t veer into “if you don’t think like I do, then you’re wrong” territory. |
| #2Mr_MiscellanyNov 21, 2011 15:06:02 | As an aside: is Many-Arrows truly the first orc kingdom to ever exist in the Realms? I could have swore there was at least some mention of others.... |
| #3LordManshoonNov 21, 2011 15:19:01 |
I personally like the concept of Many-Arrows, or any other such orderly orc kingdom. I haven't really done much with MA in my own game, but it's there, all the same, and has weathered the decades well. To me, it just makes sense that after so many centuries of seeing tribes of their kin ripped apart by more organized fighting forces and communities, there would be some orcs who desired to break away from the old ways and establish themselves as a political power. That's one of my biggest problems with FR, actually (and similar settings) - the idea that peoples' racial reputations cannot change (orcs must be nasty and violent, drow must be sneaky and sadistic, etc.) So, for me, Many-Arrows was a step in the right direction. The argument that MA-style orcs are breaking with Gruumsh doesn't carry much weight with me, for that matter. Gruumsh is a deity, albeit a bloodthirsty and cruel one, and he still needs his followers to thrive. Having seen the extent to which his original doctrine succeeded (i.e. so-so), it would make sense that, given the chaos of the Spellplague, he would be very concerned with ensuring his dominance, which would include having his faithful gain the upper hand in their endeavors. To me, Many-Arrows is the next step in that process - the organization of orcs as a prominent regional power, capable of holding its own territory and exerting its will beyond occasional raids. His warriors will still be able to go to battle, but now the fighting will take place on a grander scale, and they won't be throwing themselves headfirst at their enemies all the time, meaning they can develop as a proper community. Of course, how people want to interpret Gruumsh is up to them; I admit I may be making him out to be more cunning and level-headed than other sources would depict him. The key for me, though, is that different sects of Gruumsh's faith will interpret his will in various ways, thus allowing Many-Arrows to remain confident in their god's favor. I've actually used the Lost Century to develop orcs as being more capable and intelligent than they've appeared in the past. Not at all orcs have made the transition; most are still content to follow the old ways, and not all of the kingdom's neighbors favor the idea of friendly, trustworthy orcs. However, the ratio of MA-style orcs to nomadic/tribal orcs is a lot more balanced in my game than what other materials have suggested. In my game, orcs have even gained acceptance outside MA in some parts; Baldur's Gate, Calimshan, and Waterdeep leap to mind, and a prominent orcish settlement has been established in the Moonsea, Thondr. |
| #4Mr_MiscellanyNov 21, 2011 15:40:58 | I sometimes wonder if the orcs stayed bloodthirsty so long only because it took millennia for Gruumsh’s raw anger at Correllion to die down long enough for him to start thinking clearly. Sort of on a divine-scale of time, you know? Where all Gruumsh's shamans ever got were divine visions colored by Gruumsh’s seething rage. LordManshoon*, do you see Gruumsh going up against Bane in the future? That is, if Gruumsh’ worshippers organize themselves to go off in an orderly way to make war and conquer other lands, does the tyranny of the orcs impede Bane’s desire for the same? I guess I’m wondering if Gruumsh gets the divine mojo from the spread of the orc’s power through tyranny, or if that goes to Bane instead. *edit: And anyone else reading who'd like to chime in. |
| #5sallaNov 21, 2011 15:44:25 | Short form: Genetics don't decide personality. Orcish culture may be nasty, brutish, and savage, but there's no reason orcs (or goblins, or drow, or kobolds, or ...) can't elevate themselves above that, whether individually or as a nation. They simply have to make that choice. |
| #6StiggerNov 21, 2011 16:44:24 | Depends on how you define and envision it I suppose. I don't see any particular reason why Many-Arrows can't be called a nation or kingdom. Perhaps not in the same sense that Cormyr or Impiltur are, but in the sense that the orcs control the territory and define law, or what passes for it in orcish society, within that region, then yes, it does consitute a nation or kingdom of sorts. So long as the subjects proclaim their ruler a king and accept him as such, then he is, regardless of how other nations may view that claim. I'm not sure I'd call it a civilization in a (modern) human sense of the word, but that's besides the point. As to prior orcish nations, I'd again say it depends on whether you count tribal rule as constituting a nation or not. Personally, I'd say it did qualify, but that could just be me. Ones that have been mentioned though, the only one that comes to mind offhand are the Ondonti, but I'm not really sure that counts considering the circumstances. I'd say the Orog back in the days of 3e definitely constituted one, though I don't recall any formal names being ascribed to them. |
| #7the_ubbergeekNov 21, 2011 20:42:50 | Short form: Genetics don't decide personality. Orcish culture may be nasty, brutish, and savage, but there's no reason orcs (or goblins, or drow, or kobolds, or ...) can't elevate themselves above that, whether individually or as a nation. They simply have to make that choice. And we shall also note that in real history, there is nations who lived rather brutal lifesyle, and survived (more or less). The Khanates of the east, by example. Raiding was a way of life. (A famous greek author and thinker of the antiquity - Platon? - included stuff as Piracy as a LEGITIMATE way for a city-state to thrive. LEGITIMATE.) Orcs may still do similar stuff as well - shepperding, raising animals, etc. To think that Orcs, who can be actually not that stupid always, and whose shamans and priests are not always at helm, can not find way to survive, live even.. meh. In my own setting, I have the Yojins, a fearsome Hobgoblin culture of the east, they are at times more 'noble savages' than 'brutish dumb humanoids'. (BTW, in modern ethnological parlance, 'nations' can also means cultures, ethnicals, like amerindians or québecois, my own people - a nation. State or no state.) |
| #8eriksdbNov 22, 2011 9:51:47 | (Posted on Candlekeep as well!) I am personally intrigued to see orcs evolve beyond their hunter/gatherer/raider society into something more settled, organized, and (ultimately) stronger. If one considers that the end state of such a civilization is to be strong enough to defeat one's neighbors, then this is perfectly in line with the goals of Gruumsh, albeit in a fashion he hasn't explored much in the past. Not to compare FR too closely to our own world, but history teaches us that while a nation can exist on the basis of raiding and fighting alone, it can't ultimately compete with a nation that invests in agriculture, animal-raising, and "working together" the way successful human kingdoms can. The orcs have finally just taken a page from the human playbook, and it's working out for them. Also, Many-Arrows is not necessarily the first orc kingdom to crop up in the Forgotten Realms, though it might well be the most persistent and successful one. It is to the humans' detriment and the orcs' advantage that the so-called "higher races" don't think they can thrive as a real kingdom. On a final note, I find it both not surprising and also very appropriate that RAS is exploring an orc kingdom as a theme. His Drizzt series has always been about racism to one extent or another, and his work with Many-Arrows is an extension of that. Note that I'm not saying conforming to another race's social norms is a good thing, but it's refreshing to see orcs treated as something other than brute savages. Cheers |
| #9the_ubbergeekNov 22, 2011 14:52:36 | Depend for the part 2; Horse nomads ruled for AGES and 'pwned' sendentary peoples up to *gunpowder* age, and even then, at start, they fared not too badly (the nomads had to recharge and all). If the orcs were horse nomads like Mongols, old Turks or Scythians of old, they may have *ruled* for age. Magic would have been the only factor against it. |
| #10crzyhawkNov 23, 2011 9:00:23 | Discipline is really the key. I don't believe there was a lot of infighting with the Mongols. They tended to take out their aggression on non-Mongols. The orcs on the other hand, often take out their aggression on whatever is closest...which often happens to be another orc. Take for example, the scene in Lord of the Rings, where the two groups of orcs in Cirith Ungol (the tower just past shelob's lair) where the orcs from the Morgul Vale and the orcs from Mordor kill each other off and allow Sam to rescue Frodo. That kind of "blue on blue" activity is what keeps orcs from being a bigger threat to other races/nations. Obould comes along, and unites the tribes, and has the force of personality to keep them from reverting to the old ways long enough for some cultural changes to set in. The discipline to restrain themselves becomes more of a habit, and that discipline allows the nation to survive. |
| #11the_ubbergeekNov 23, 2011 14:39:52 | Discipline is really the key. I don't believe there was a lot of infighting with the Mongols. They tended to take out their aggression on non-Mongols. The orcs on the other hand, often take out their aggression on whatever is closest...which often happens to be another orc. Oh, oh, oh... At the height of the empire, maybe. But before, and went it was broken down... LOTR's Orcs are not D&D's Orcs. And notably,. LOTR can be BRAINY actually... as intelligent as a man. Orcs need discipline, but they are not intelectualy challenged totaly, and not creatures of pure chaos. |
| #12MirtekNov 24, 2011 13:55:34 | Well, until 3e decided to make them chaotic orcs have been lawful in D&D. Even Gruumsh used to be a Lawful deity (after being driven from his former home on the LE plane of Baator he settled on the LE plane of Acheron). So the kingdom of many arrows is simply the orcs returning to their classical ways. |
| #13EinlanzerNov 30, 2011 9:44:57 | Personally, I like it, because I like to imagine Orcs as being a primitive humanoid race on the cusp of civilization. I've never even cared much for the idea that races are innately good or evil, and am glad to see that concept waning a bit even if it's still fairly prevalent. I think it also fits well as part of a move that is long overdue within both the FR and D&D in general of breaking the "everything is black and white" schema of prior editions, and depicting things like morality and cultural attunement in more complex, realistic, and relativistic ways. |
| #14MR._TNov 30, 2011 13:49:26 | I see no reason why orcs can't have thier own kingdom. Furthermore, I like the dynamic. As an aside, even before Orcs had Many Arrows, there was one of the earlier FR novel where one of the main characters was an Orc Paladin of Torm. If I could only remember which one it was? It was a decent read, too. |
| #15creyzi4zb12Dec 01, 2011 0:41:04 | This was a note about orc from forgottenrealms.wikia once (I don't know which source book they got it) erdana,Arial,Helvetica">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:x-small">The orcs are an ancient species, their hatred for the human race is unmatched. Orcs believe that they are eternally at war with mankind. It's true that humans think that orcs are just brainless brutes, which was in fact real, but that age has gone and their intelligence has increased greatly, in fact an orc that went by the name of <":"> (orcish text when written), Oblon Oblivion (orcish language when pronounced), The Green Hammer (The meaning), son of Grevious the leader of an orc mountain tribe named Gorvenus, based in the Akrab Mountains (the mountains iron) which was run by the Mercedez army (known as the army of the labyrinth, it is consisting of men whose god is the minotaur, their armour is bull-like, in respect of the heavenly fusion which unites bull and man to form the ultimate being). The orcs forged their weaponry and some even made armour from their surroundings, the mountain, nearby villages which they raided very often knowing that the soldiers wouldn't get there in time due to the distance between. The orcs were a primitive humanoid/goblinoid race who were driven to the brink of extinction in most parts of the world because of man, there are such seasons involving orc hunting. Oblon Oblivious changed the face of the orc for ever, he spent years taking the ignorance of man but in the meanwhile he accepted it, he was secretly configuring a new line of military for them to ensure that the survival of the orc would last through winter and maybe one day make the human race face certain doom, he developed a military program so sophisticated that even the humans could not figure out how it operated, he had the orcs adopt the human language also, and made certain armour and weapons, he developed new types of orcs and with in 5 days of his finish he united every mountain orc tribe, he put them under special training for every type, he evolved their intelligence to a wider selection. And with in 1.7 weeks he destroyed the Mercedez army, it went so fast because the underestimated the orc, they came swarming out of the mountains in massive numbers with a strategic military plan. Orcs organize bands of trained soldiers, bands consist of 10,000 orcs per, bands are places into unite, units consist of about 50 bands, there are so many types of different units over thousands, units are placed with in sectors which contain 100 units, 5 of which are multiplied (5 of the same units). which are there for put into legions or as the orcish terms describe it "Hordes". The have also developed a fusion technique, a fusion of 2 bands which are called "Doom Codes" in doom codes thay just don't have another band match up beside, they equalize it out for a perfect shape consisting of 20,000 strong, at the sign of a hand signal the single band, every orc soldier steps 5 inches from his other companions so that everyone is separated as an individual, then the second band walks into the first band and when they find their place in line, then at another hand signal they lock at the same time and make a solid. But on top of all these bands, units, sectors, and that, there are positions above, there are 2 types of hordes. One hordes is the main army that out, the other hordes consist of completely different units, and are also known as the stronger horde. It seems like forgottenrealms.wikia removed it...For I dunno what reasons...The note only stayed there for like 3-4 months. |
| #16ImruphelDec 03, 2011 2:37:26 | Well, until 3e decided to make them chaotic orcs have been lawful in D&D. Even Gruumsh used to be a Lawful deity (after being driven from his former home on the LE plane of Baator he settled on the LE plane of Acheron). Orcs were originally Chaotic Evil in D&D but became Lawful Evil in the AD&D1E Monster Manual. That may, or may not, have been a mistake. So, yes, officially Lawful Evil in 1E and 2E but Chaotic Evil before and after. |
| #17the_ubbergeekDec 05, 2011 5:07:40 | Well, until 3e decided to make them chaotic orcs have been lawful in D&D. Even Gruumsh used to be a Lawful deity (after being driven from his former home on the LE plane of Baator he settled on the LE plane of Acheron). And this show maybe well that Alignements are somethign very subjective, to say the least. |
| #18eriksdbDec 07, 2011 11:03:49 | It also bears noting that 4e kind of jumbled up the alignment system, cramming Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Chaotic Evil into only two categories: Evil and Chaotic Evil. Not that this necessarily pertains strictly to this discussion, but one should take too much alignment-equivalence logic with a grain of salt. Cheers |
| #19the_ubbergeekDec 07, 2011 20:38:31 | It also bears noting that 4e kind of jumbled up the alignment system, cramming Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Chaotic Evil into only two categories: Evil and Chaotic Evil. Not that this necessarily pertains strictly to this discussion, but one should take too much alignment-equivalence logic with a grain of salt. No, the 4th ed system is a bit odd, but can be defendable. Somes of those alignements are too hard to separate, so the creators of 4th can't be blamed for this. The problem is as alignments itself as a concept. |
| #20sallaDec 07, 2011 20:41:28 | It also bears noting that 4e kind of jumbled up the alignment system, cramming Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Chaotic Evil into only two categories: Evil and Chaotic Evil. Not that this necessarily pertains strictly to this discussion, but one should take too much alignment-equivalence logic with a grain of salt. Or, just chuck alignment out the window en toto, as the designers should have done. |
| #21the_ubbergeekDec 07, 2011 20:59:19 | It also bears noting that 4e kind of jumbled up the alignment system, cramming Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Chaotic Evil into only two categories: Evil and Chaotic Evil. Not that this necessarily pertains strictly to this discussion, but one should take too much alignment-equivalence logic with a grain of salt. I'm not totaly for - in D&D, evil and good exist, like the force of star wars. How to put it? |
| #22eriksdbDec 08, 2011 0:58:44 | I wasn't actually making a statement about the wisdom or defensibility of the alignment system. I only meant to point out that it isn't the same alignment system across the editions. And thus we shouldn't necessarily put too much stock in the question of parallelism (i.e. orcs were X alignment in X edition, so they should be Y alignment in Y edition). Cheers |
| #23the_ubbergeekDec 08, 2011 1:07:55 | I wasn't actually making a statement about the wisdom or defensibility of the alignment system. I only meant to point out that it isn't the same alignment system across the editions. And thus we shouldn't necessarily put too much stock in the question of parallelism (i.e. orcs were X alignment in X edition, so they should be Y alignment in Y edition). The problem is, this is an example of the problems with the vagueness of alignements and subjectivity. Like Drows, Lolth and their society. And it is one thing also that was debated since the early days of D&D. Also, the problem of being so tied to canon, and seeing only ythe canon ("but they where X before!"). |
| #24XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsekDec 08, 2011 17:02:17 | Alignment has nothing to do with this at all. There have always been exceptions to the rule, especially with regards to Forgotten Realms. The stats and alignments they give you are not for all drow, for example, but it is the alignment for your common drow. All drow haven't suddenly become good or lost their rep because of Drizzt. Orcs are still considered a brutal and barbaric race not matter what. Many Arrows is just another exception to the rule. Back during the days of Myth Drannor, there was a Red Dragon who wasn't evil. Now because he was there, it became one of the keys to setting the "Trio Nefarious" free but you get the point. The Forgotten Realms has been doing the exceptions to the norm for years. You can't create a book for every exception for every race out there, that is what a DM is for. Even though elves can and do live anywhere, they are still associated with living in forests. Dwarves are the same with regards to mountains. |
| #25the_ubbergeekDec 08, 2011 21:31:30 | Alignment has nothing to do with this at all. Alignements are a part of this issue; 'They are chaotic evil, so they can NOT have a stable kingdom, blablabla..' |
| #26crzyhawkDec 08, 2011 21:59:47 | Drow are chaotic evil and have a somewhat stable system. Also, just because a people are brutal and barbaric doesn't mean they have to turn their aggression inward. I see no problems with an orc kingdom. Now an orc nation that's all about holding hands with the elves and dwarves dancing around the campfire singing kumbaya...well that I disbelieve in. That said, I don't see Many Arrows in that manner. I see them as imperialistic and aggressive, waiting for the right opportunity to unleash their power. Until that time is right though, they'll bide their time, learn and train. |
| #27the_ubbergeekDec 09, 2011 0:51:14 | Drow are chaotic evil and have a somewhat stable system. The problem is that by example it had been argued in the past that Drows are actually NEUTRAL Evil/Evil, contradicting some Lolth's tenants. And such debates on alignements. On orcs and elves... yeah, but that depend on the world. And in some worlds like Eberron, it may be the ELVES that are the hataz.... |
| #28the_ubbergeekDec 09, 2011 0:57:22 | Drow society survives because the nobles (who are the CE gang) aren't actually the ones with power. They're too busy with their conspiracies and backstabbing and too short-lived to actually accomplish anything. True power is held a couple levels down, by the slaves and stewards. And they tend to just be Evil, if that. Interesting interpretation.... I wouldn't postulate and say so that slaves and lower classes are the real power, but in a way (what is a chief without servants?) and with other power groups like guilds... May I steal this idea for my game, erachima? |
| #29eriksdbDec 09, 2011 10:22:12 | I tend to view alignment as a role-playing aid: a shorthand description of a character or monster's basic outlook on the world, so a player or DM can get a sense of what he/she/it might decide in any given situation. It is not meant to be a straight jacket, and none of the alignments restrict a creature from building something, though it's a worthy statement that a chaotic alignment indicates a tendency to break one's toys. Note that I said "tendency," not "inevitability." There are plenty of evil societies in the Realms, whether lawful, neutral, or chaotic, that continue to function despite their various interpretations of evil. The church of Cyric, for instance, is chaotic evil, but it has yet to destroy itself. Also drow as previously mentioned (see also my comment about drow below). We are not talking about "Chaotic Stupid" here--a chaotic evil person might be just as organized and put-together as a lawful good person, only the outlook and priorities vary wildly. A chaotic evil person sows chaos and dissent and violence, but may be perfectly capable of keeping himself and his underlings in line. Also, it kind of takes the wind out of the "orcs can't build a society because they're all CE" defense when one says that "drow aren't all CE--some are NE, and they're the ones with power" (which is a contradiction of what the lore says). I also think it's pretty clear, when we see the power structure of the drow in novels like the Dark Elf Trilogy and War of the Spider Queen, that the drow are indeed built on a foundation of chaos and evil. Are we going by the books, or not? Why can't the stabilizing forces in orc society not be CE, if races can make exceptions like this? (I don't think we need them to be--I'm very content with a CE society--I'm just advancing the argument for the sake of clarification.) Cheers |
| #30sallaDec 11, 2011 13:35:45 | I would interpret that kind of the opposite way ... the orcs that are forming a stable society are the ones who aren't CE (if I used alignment anymore). Actions determine alignment, not the other way around ... if you aren't acting in a CE manner, then you cease to be CE. A stable, ordered society is pretty much the antithesis of Chaotic ... so they aren't Chaotic. |