How will Mystra's death play out as a theme in your Realms? Will you explore the effect of her absence on the common people?
Will you explore the downfall of her clergy? Or will her priests still hold political power, clinging to false beliefs and leading people down the path of the faithless?
We know magic has changed dramatically in 4E. Will it still be as prevalent in your Realms, or will you have a lot fewer "magic users"?
Will you have a major adventure tied to exploring the after-effects of her death?
Do you plan on using Spellscars?
This is in contrast with my homebrew setting where divine and arcane magic are both equally influential while warlocks are a fringe type of magic with not many people knowing very much or understanding it (and as such often have no opinion on it).
Unless contradicted, I plan on having most, if not all of Mystra's human followers dead while followers of the longer lived races have either switched deities or are bitter about her death and refuse to learn any new forms of magic.
These are the FR boards, they are editionless. And since they are public I can state any opinion I desire to state as long as it doesn't violates the CoC.
This thread was intently purposed for those who will use 4E Realms. Continuing to post about how you hate it and won't use it - in this thread - is counter productive and could be considered trolling or baiting, which -IS- against the CoC. Keep doing it, I'll report it. There are other threads where you can talk about negativity as much as you like.
For those planning to use 4E Realms including the Spellplague as presented, where do you see taking "Mystra's Legacy" of magic?
Elminster, the chosen and several organisations will try to uphold her view of resposible use of the Art. Parts of her dogma could prove a way out of the sticky situation of surviving the spellplague as a magic user, like only use magic when it absolutely neccesary.
How will Mystra's death play out as a theme in your Realms? Will you explore the effect of her absence on the common people?
Yeah, Mystra's clergy used to explain magic to the public in a pretty open and honest way. A lot of mystery will reemerge with the common people if they wont be educated anymore.
Will you explore the downfall of her clergy? Or will her priests still hold political power, clinging to false beliefs and leading people down the path of the faithless?
This is an interesting theme. As I see it the clergy would not vainly try to hold to power as they all can clearly feel their diety is not answering their call and see their laws unravel in chaos.
We know magic has changed dramatically in 4E. Will it still be as prevalent in your Realms, or will you have a lot fewer "magic users"?
Old spellbooks will still hold the same terrible powers, only the way to unlock them and translate them will be difficult at best. I see 4e fearun as a sort of renaissance version with lots of magical progress and theories. The spellplague will be cross planar (I found a nice 4e greyhawk thread I might use, linking the spellplague with an elemental war spilling from Oerth into the great wheel). Fearuns mages will be at the forefront of the rediscovery of magic, as it has always been.
Will you have a major adventure tied to exploring the after-effects of her death?
Yeah, I want to experience the biggest divine RSE firsthand. Will make judicious use of 2dn edition wildmagic tables.
Do you plan on using Spellscars?
Definately. I don't mind this concept, I loved the wild psionic talent rules of 2nd edition this seems a bit similar.
Elminster, the chosen and several organisations will try to uphold her view of resposible use of the Art. Parts of her dogma could prove a way out of the sticky situation of surviving the spellplague as a magic user, like only use magic when it absolutely neccesary.
I like this. And it ties into the classic wizard's job of uncovering arcane secrets and applying them for best effect. I could definitely see magic becoming special again, not as commonplace.
Yeah, Mystra's clergy used to explain magic to the public in a pretty open and honest way. A lot of mystery will reemerge with the common people if they wont be educated anymore.
And now, theoretically, those priests will mostly be gone. At least in major cities, they probably won't be a major influence. So arcane magic could become something few people know about (if you might want a lower-magic campaign), and the secrets of magic could be jealously guarded by those who have re-discovered its principles.
This is an interesting theme. As I see it the clergy would not vainly try to hold to power as they all can clearly feel their diety is not answering their call and see their laws unravel in chaos.
Old spellbooks will still hold the same terrible powers, only the way to unlock them and translate them will be difficult at best. I see 4e fearun as a sort of renaissance version with lots of magical progress and theories. The spellplague will be cross planar (I found a nice 4e greyhawk thread I might use, linking the spellplague with an elemental war spilling from Oerth into the great wheel). Fearuns mages will be at the forefront of the rediscovery of magic, as it has always been.
Heh, I like that idea also. I have an idea for a daVinci-type of NPC wizard, someone who spent a great deal of time exploring and re-learning the Art. He was a mage prior to the Spellplague, lived through it, and might even bear a spellscar "wound" from getting too close to the initial energy curtain of blue fire caused by Mystra's death. The 100 years after could have been a kind of "dark age" for magic, and 1479+ could indeed be like a Renaissance period. My daVinci NPC could serve as a master for an aspiring PC wizard, perhaps.
Yeah, I want to experience the biggest divine RSE firsthand. Will make judicious use of 2dn edition wildmagic tables.
Definately. I don't mind this concept, I loved the wild psionic talent rules of 2nd edition this seems a bit similar.
Some of my players are now starting to express an interest in 4E as well, so I've been toying with the idea of having their PCs "hit" by an unusually strong spellstorm that pushes them 100 years into the future, just so they end up in the "new" Realms. It could kill the PCs who want to roll up someone new, or it could provide the means for spell-scarring those who want a spellscar.
I would be interested in pursuing my campaign during the beginning of the spellplague, also using 2nd Ed. Wild magic.
If I convert to 4E, I would opt for the children-children of my current PCs... so they would have a Grand father/mother who would have been a Hero once in a while. Great family treasure (aka weapons or the like) could have been lost and the new kid on the block wants to find it...
But one thing... I will wait before many books are out, so not to change every time the PCs found a new feat or power interesting and he has to change all is previous feat/power to use it...
I like this. And it ties into the classic wizard's job of uncovering arcane secrets and applying them for best effect. I could definitely see magic becoming special again, not as commonplace.
I wonder how they are going to reimagine wizard schools, they wont be focused along the schools of magic anymore. This will be the biggest difference and obstacle for DM's to adapt to. I heard something about 6 different school themes for a wizard. Perhaps Fearun gets a few of its own special wizardry schools, like luskan stormmage brotherhoods or calimshan pasha funded orders.
And now, theoretically, those priests will mostly be gone. At least in major cities, they probably won't be a major influence. So arcane magic could become something few people know about (if you might want a lower-magic campaign), and the secrets of magic could be jealously guarded by those who have re-discovered its principles.
Yeah, personally I would not want a lowmagic fearun. I think a hundred years is not enough to remove the traces of Mystra or her clergy on Fearun. I could see a clergy of cleric mutliclassed to wizards still following Mystra quite easily, especially if I reintroduce servant of the fallen like feats.
Heh, I like that idea also. I have an idea for a daVinci-type of NPC wizard, someone who spent a great deal of time exploring and re-learning the Art. He was a mage prior to the Spellplague, lived through it, and might even bear a spellscar "wound" from getting too close to the initial energy curtain of blue fire caused by Mystra's death. The 100 years after could have been a kind of "dark age" for magic, and 1479+ could indeed be like a Renaissance period. My daVinci NPC could serve as a master for an aspiring PC wizard, perhaps.
I like that angle. Besides, uncovering past mysteries was always a way for future growth of a wizard in fearun.
Some of my players are now starting to express an interest in 4E as well, so I've been toying with the idea of having their PCs "hit" by an unusually strong spellstorm that pushes them 100 years into the future, just so they end up in the "new" Realms. It could kill the PCs who want to roll up someone new, or it could provide the means for spell-scarring those who want a spellscar
I strongly abhor timetravel in my D&D adventures. I hate messing with temporal anomalies. Sorry. To my logic, it feels like a step too much of what magic can do.
I'll probably be keeping Mystra Alive in my game. She will still control the weave. The way magic is used is how it has always been used or soem reason for the change. I don't agree with their reasoning for killing her off at all, so I probably won't use it. maybe one day, but not now.
Nothing wrong with that, Mystra's been known to re-create herself before. You could even keep the whole Spellplague event and say that it's taken her 100 years to pull her energies back together. Or you could avoid Mystra's murder and the Spellplague event altogether for your Realms.
I wonder how they are going to reimagine wizard schools, they wont be focused along the schools of magic anymore. This will be the biggest difference and obstacle for DM's to adapt to. I heard something about 6 different school themes for a wizard. Perhaps Fearun gets a few of its own special wizardry schools, like luskan stormmage brotherhoods or calimshan pasha funded orders.
Yep, I'm curious about this also.
Yeah, personally I would not want a lowmagic fearun. I think a hundred years is not enough to remove the traces of Mystra or her clergy on Fearun. I could see a clergy of cleric mutliclassed to wizards still following Mystra quite easily, especially if I reintroduce servant of the fallen like feats.
True, low-magic isn't for everyone, and it would be a departure from the original feel of the Realms. I'm probably somewhere in the middle, as I think really high level magic should be really rare. Too many archmages wandering around and it somehow doesn't feel as unique or special.
That said, I'll miss Halruaa because I did like the idea of a nation that had easy access to low-level magic for most of the population, but I think I'll probably have a number of Halruaan wizards survive the Spellplague. Some of them could be the ones who re-learned magic during the "dark age" and they could have re-founded new arcane magic schools in Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, or Silverymoon. Or they might be like the wizard with 1-2 apprentices that live in a tower on the outskirts of town.
I like that angle. Besides, uncovering past mysteries was always a way for future growth of a wizard in fearun.
The academic side of the wizard was always one that appealed to me. Finding musty old tomes and poring over them. As you said before, many old tomes could still be quite valuable for the study of magic, but need to be understood in the right way.
I strongly abhor timetravel in my D&D adventures. I hate messing with temporal anomalies. Sorry. To my logic, it feels like a step too much of what magic can do.
Heh, yeah it's a bit strong as a plot device. It might be better in a lot of ways to just roll up new characters.
The actual divine legacy will be hard to tell, Mystra's allies where many but thier choices and thoughts on the matter are unclear untill we know which dieties remain active. Perhaps a player can try to become the new diety of magic; it is a chosable destiny...
I've checked out manuscript so far, and we didn't explicitly say one way or the other. Since we haven't said it in print yet, I get to express my own opinion: Those souls would have returned to the Fugue plane, where Kelemvor re-assigned them as appropriate. I imagine that a fair number wound up in the domains of Selune or Shar. And some might have remained in the Fugue plane under Kelemvor's protection. Kelemvor's city is not a bad afterlife.
But the physical shrine to mystra, her organisations, spellschools et al could all still be standing holding the practical knowledge of the godess quite current. Perhaps both Sharrans and Selunites will actively compete for these real estates over the years after the spellplague with Shar winning in the most regions if you want a more pagan view of magic and selune a more enlightened one.
Nothing wrong with that, Mystra's been known to re-create herself before. You could even keep the whole Spellplague event and say that it's taken her 100 years to pull her energies back together. Or you could avoid Mystra's murder and the Spellplague event altogether for your Realms.
Or a slight application of Chronomancy and a less than obvious response from Mystra. Someone sends back word that Mystra is attacked, disappears for a century and details about the Spellplague. Mystra can't directly block the attack because to do so would prevent the events that provided a reason to warn her in the first place. She can however modify terms. Cyric attacks, Mystra disappears, her home explodes in a pre-arranged casting and she unravels the Weave in a controlled manner. Directly causing and controlling the Spellplague while hiding from the Realms at large. If large portions of Halruua's population should disappear to never be heard from again. Well, they could be dead or they could be shifted away from most of Toril so that Mystra still has a supply of living faithful feeding her power.
At least, if I wanted to save Mystra and not do a great deal of converting of modifying whatever storyline is set up in 4E. A touch of Chronomancy is the route I'd take. Since she literally can't afford to be recognized before the message is sent back that saved her life, she has a vested interest in not being caught meddling until such time as the DM considers it appropriate and setting up the reconstruction of her church on Toril could be interesting.
Not actually my intent, I have no desire to buy 4E FR products but I thought it the simplest way to mesh Mystra's survival with 4E lore.
EDIT ADD-ON: unravels and recreates the Weave in a controlled manner. Too busy plotting, the Lady decided to remind me of basic Torillian metaphysics.
I can see Selune picking up some of the slack left behind by Mystra. Especially now that she's a Greater God, again. Although not as the new Goddess of Magic, of course. I can definitely see many of her worshippers going on to worship Selune, with some going to Shar (Though how many specifics about Mystra's death are known by her faithful? Do they know of Shar's involvement?).
I see this, as well. Selune and Shar seem to be the prominent "good vs. evil" deity's of 4e FR. And, yes, I imagine that her faithful are all well aware that both Cyric and Shar were involved in her murder. If hundreds of mages in Thay new of it in the moment of her death, then why not her faithful?
Overall, if I could start of a 4e FR campaign, the entire focus would be to bring Mystra back. I mean, how many god(dess)'s have died, only to return? Even if they don't, there is still a legacy band of followers here and there that continue to worship. I believe there would definitely be a following of some sort looking for her return.
That said, with the now disdained view on magic, this following may be seen as a cult, more so than a religion. And, with Eliminster wiggin' out with multiple (powerful) personalities in his head, I think it would be a great hook for her return.
In my campaign, the missing Simbul would be the key. PC's finally find her, reunite her with Eliminster and the rest of The Chosen and facilitate her return to the Realms.
As long as one Chosen lives, then Mystra is still alive. She invested each of her Chosen, and Mr. El in particular, with a fragment of "herself" to hold in case she died or decided to go insane. Mystra, therefore, is not dead yet
She be back. Just like a Wonder Woman rerun. :D
For those planning to use 4E Realms including the Spellplague as presented, where do you see taking "Mystra's Legacy" of magic?
How will Mystra's death play out as a theme in your Realms? Will you explore the effect of her absence on the common people?
Will you explore the downfall of her clergy? Or will her priests still hold political power, clinging to false beliefs and leading people down the path of the faithless?
We know magic has changed dramatically in 4E. Will it still be as prevalent in your Realms, or will you have a lot fewer "magic users"?
Will you have a major adventure tied to exploring the after-effects of her death?
Do you plan on using Spellscars?
I would say that her chosen are the greatest legacy of magic she could leave behind: Elminster will survive but will likely be a broken man after losing Mystra again (just finished the 1st Elminder books so it´s till very fresh) and the fact that somehow absorbed the minds of other powerull beeings and now usually doesn´t dare to call on magic will prevent him somewhat from appearing on the oder side of faerun when someone says (it´s not like Elminster is waiting behind that pillar..) to wave a hand and dissaper again.
Quilue (sp?) may get her treatment already in about a week when Acendancy of the last comes out, but while she may change I don´t see her gone just jet.
Dove has never been on of the greatest movers and shakers but recently had a very nice appearance in realms of war. I don´t think she is one of the chosen some players felt necessary to kill off. I think she may very well surive these hundred years - and I can see her working behind the lines to fight the churches of cyric and shar.
Storm is a character that managed to affect a lot of people in the realms, mainly through the harpers, but sometimes as chosen of Mystra. Her message (at least as far as I understood it) might be confusing "don´t be afraid of magic, use it to better the lives of others, but don´t use it if you can do without" I am pretty shure I got it wrong but she is quite a good fighter, she know her way when it comes to herbs and beeing a midwife isn´t beyound her skills either. If you woult one day take all her magic away - it would not actually destroy of cripple her character all that much, she would still be a fierce and fearless fighter for the good people of the realms.
Laeral currently has her hands full with the aftermath of the Blackstaff novel and will most likely not have an overly active roll in the realms till the death of Mystra. Afterwards she might retreat for even longer...
Alustriel will give up her position of ruler and join her sisters, maybe if they are able to, try to stop or weaken the effects of the spellplague/the destruction of the weave until it ends after 10 years.
The Simbul I see as the strongest mage among them, with a more instinctiv mastery over magic as one of the most affected by mystras death, and after she recovers she might have the strenth to help her lover through a hard time . That said after I read about spellscars I immediately saw the simbul in her telltale robe floating with spellscars appearing all over her body bathed in blue /silver fire.
All in all I would not be surprised if the chosen would be put out of the game for some time maybe going to the demiplane they went to stabilize the weave once (IIRC Best of the Realms the storis of Ed Greenwood).
While I was typing this I came to remember poor Halaster, he died atempting a ritual of tremendous power trying to prevent something (spellplague???) and since he was most likely a follower of Mystra - or at least his soul was claimed by her after death - Mystra must have known that something would happen.
The Zulkir of Divination actually did see what would happen but could not prevent it and Azurth and Savras were also unable to forsee it - most likely chaused by Shars mastery over Secrets.
Mystras church will suffer immediately after the death of Mystra, not only is their source of power gone (the clergy of Lolth can sing a song about that one ;) ) but after it becomes known what happened, people will claim that the church is responsible for the spellplague the storms of blue fire, mages gone mad and dangeraus, peopgle getting changed to spellwarped monsters...
times will be tough.
If the church does not survive I am quite shure that the chruch of Azuth will take them in and in time might replace Mystra in the eyes of mortals ...but he will never get as powerfull as the her.
Mystras absence will have the greatest effects in magic rich countries like Thay (for further info I suggest reading Unclean, Undead and later Unholy) Calimshan, Halrua (what remains of it that is ), Rashemen (they might see it as kind of a blessing at first, despite the fact that one of their 3 gods is killed), Aglarond(some unpleasant things might come from these stone circles), Luskan, Evermeet, Cormanthor and several others. Most common folk might think its the time of troubles all over again and hope that things will stabilize soon. Others especially people with no love for mages might see this as their chance to rob the old geezers in his towers...
False priests selling false hopes to the people that if only they give enough, Mystra will save their city from the blue storms might happen but I don´t see the real clergy falling like that. Not unless some other fake priests (cyric/shar) have something to do with it.
We will likely be "blessed" with more magical monsters, spelltwisted beings of great power, areas of live spellplaugue, whatever crawls out of Thay, aboleths grasping for dominance of the Underdark.... and whatever the new Netheril might give us.
That said magic might not be rarer after 100 years, but people might see it differently - Mystras clergy worked long and hard to give magic a good immage, but after all this time a father might decide to do something dreadfull if his kid shows signs of sorcery. With the new gameplay elements 4th Edition brings it could just as well go the other way (rituals available to sages without magical power, arcane flavoured abilities for many classes at the higher levels...) but I doubt it.
All in all we will see fewer pure mages and more normal classes with a bit magic as well as warlocks.
Major Aventure.... my group is in the middle of the Cormyr adventure and we will most likely not finish it ever (group not a big fan of 3.5 and other reason) but I have read Shadowdale and Anauroch and while it might be fun to send a group back through time (time gate or spell from the Netheril set) to play the adventure and learn how it happened I don´t think that its all that likely. And to be honest knowing that Mystra will die a little later... kinda ruins the adventures for me. The fact that if Shar had succeded creating a vast dead weave zone in the first adventure she might not have resorted to get her killed sucks too.
I LOVE spellscars, i liked them already after ready about them in the article but after reading Swordmage (on a single day - damn you Rich Baker ;) ) i´m in love with the concept. Ok if you know about Eberrons Dragonmarks they might seem like a cheap knockoff but they are actually something diffent as I understood it. People are afraid of them, fear the bearers might become spelltwisted of gain evil powers ..... I see the witchhunts already (I don´t really have to say that at least one of my new chars will get one asap :D ).
Now I am ashamed to mention this but I am a huge fan of Final Fantasy 7 (and the movie) and while this isn´t about large katana fullblades
I already plan an adventure regarding spellscars:"Lady Larissa stood on empty air above the ruined castle, watching her faithfull rebuilding the the long abandoned ruin below her. Reflecting how much she had endured to come to this point, how long she had searched in the sands of Anauroch for what was HIS, stealing into the Dire Wood for the Blood and all the other little parts she had to collect. A cruel smile came to her lips when she though about the last critical component she needed to beginn the ritual, her hand the crystal vial in her robe and wispered to the wind "blood of a chosen". Thinking about all the power that almost lay within her reach, she felt an all too familiar burning of the spellscar on her back. She pain had stated after she bagan to add tatoos to increase the power of her scar to prepare her for the comming ritual. A lesser person might have colapsed under the pain but for her the pain was a burden she was all to willing to bear to rech her ultimate goal: Divinity.
Below brother Nabudis of the Order of the Blue Flame watched the faithfull in their blessed work of rebuilding the fortress. He was at times a very sprirital person meditation often for days without pause, but now was the time to act. He left his robes behind and went towards the workers. The brother was quite a sight to behold, the front and back of his chest was coverd with a tatoo of mystras holy symbol and all over his body he had sacred texts written on his skin. Now more than 60 winters old his body wasn´t as lean as it used to be but he didn´t allow himself to get distraced, the word of the goddess would be done through him this day. On the side of the building several workers where trying to remove a heavy boulder that blocked entrace to the cellars, seeing him apporaching one of the workers already started an apology for the delay, but Nabudis waved him away and strode purposefull towards the boulder.
Nabudis took out the old battered symbol of Mystra forged more than 100 years ago, gripped it tightly and uttered a prayer to the lady. Nothing seemed to change, but he put back the symbol and stepped towards the stone. He got a tight grip on it and then in one movement lifted the huge weigh above his head, the workes stood openmouthed awed by this display of power. Drops of sweat appeared on his brow running into his eyes his arms began to tremble as he started to walk some steps aways from the entrance. Pain surging through his body only his iron will forced his body to continue walking until he set down the boulder, he could hardly stand anymore but he turned arround to the awed workes and said "Our sacred work is blessed by the goddess, never forget that!" Leaving behind the workers he walked back, it would take a while until the pain would go away, but channeling the power made him certan that nothing could stop the ressurection of the goddess.
Ariados Relias watched the work leaning on a tree on the edge of the forest while cleaning his swords. Lady Larissa had hired him and his company of sellswords, the Stalking Shadows to protect their prevent anyone from interfering with their work and safeguard their transports to the fortress and as far a she knew he did an excellent job.
The truth was was more complicated, he was a warlock pact bound to a vestige often cursed, sometimes revered that changed Faerun about 2 millena ago. And now after all this time he has found a way to return to this world and Larissa will make it all possible. But besides Larissa he has to deal with that damn Nabudis, he may look like a feeble old man but someone or something had given him serious power and he was certan that it wasn´t Mystra.
Promised power greater than he can immagine Araidos now searches for a way to wrestele control of this operation from Larissa and really would not mind to find someone who would to his work for him ......"
Ah almost forgot to for the ritual they need more than just sand, the blood and the specific place they are also abducting people with spellscars to sacrifice them for the ritual. Thats how I want to bring the PCs into the story anways
Well thats about it hope you can ignore all the typos :D What do you think is it an advenure worth playing ?
Or a slight application of Chronomancy and a less than obvious response from Mystra. Someone sends back word that Mystra is attacked, disappears for a century and details about the Spellplague. Mystra can't directly block the attack because to do so would prevent the events that provided a reason to warn her in the first place. She can however modify terms. Cyric attacks, Mystra disappears, her home explodes in a pre-arranged casting and she unravels the Weave in a controlled manner. Directly causing and controlling the Spellplague while hiding from the Realms at large. If large portions of Halruua's population should disappear to never be heard from again. Well, they could be dead or they could be shifted away from most of Toril so that Mystra still has a supply of living faithful feeding her power.
At least, if I wanted to save Mystra and not do a great deal of converting of modifying whatever storyline is set up in 4E. A touch of Chronomancy is the route I'd take. Since she literally can't afford to be recognized before the message is sent back that saved her life, she has a vested interest in not being caught meddling until such time as the DM considers it appropriate and setting up the reconstruction of her church on Toril could be interesting.
Not actually my intent, I have no desire to buy 4E FR products but I thought it the simplest way to mesh Mystra's survival with 4E lore.
EDIT ADD-ON: unravels and recreates the Weave in a controlled manner. Too busy plotting, the Lady decided to remind me of basic Torillian metaphysics.
Sorry to quash your plan but there is only 1 spell to travel through time in Faerun introduced in the Netheril Arcane Age box (free download wiazrds homepage) you can travel back in time but you can´t actually change stuff.
Of course if you can find a Time Gate they work the same IIRC, they wer introduced in an online article some years ago.
And really ruin it if a PC actually does manage it the chances are that shar senses this secret and kills the guy immediately. After all the has the power according to the deity book in that edition.
I can see Selune picking up some of the slack left behind by Mystra. Especially now that she's a Greater God, again. Although not as the new Goddess of Magic, of course. I can definitely see many of her worshippers going on to worship Selune, with some going to Shar (Though how many specifics about Mystra's death are known by her faithful? Do they know of Shar's involvement?).
Well since Mystra(Mystril) was initially created from the magic essence of Shar and Selune I don´t see why both have a clame on it, and on the same side Shar could prevent her sister from claiming it and vice versa.
Szas Tszam could tell about it but I don´t think he understand the message.
As long as one Chosen lives, then Mystra is still alive. She invested each of her Chosen, and Mr. El in particular, with a fragment of "herself" to hold in case she died or decided to go insane. Mystra, therefore, is not dead yet
Absolutely true, but someone or something is preventing another god of magic to form, my guess it´s Shar, or AO deciding that 2 times is enough.
Well since Mystra(Mystril) was initially created from the magic essence of Shar and Selune I don´t see why both have a clame on it, and on the same side Shar could prevent her sister from claiming it and vice versa.
Szas Tszam could tell about it but I don´t think he understand the message.
There will be no god(dess) of magic going forward. Wizards, Warlocks, etc. perhaps, but no "magic."
As long as one Chosen lives, then Mystra is still alive. She invested each of her Chosen, and Mr. El in particular, with a fragment of "herself" to hold in case she died or decided to go insane. Mystra, therefore, is not dead yet
I'm interested in seeing how WotC explains what happens to the pieces of Mystra invested in each of the Chosen.
I'm interested in seeing how WotC explains what happens to the pieces of Mystra invested in each of the Chosen.
Eliminster absorbed them. And now we just need to track down the Simbul to bring back Mystra. ;)
I see this, as well. Selune and Shar seem to be the prominent "good vs. evil" deity's of 4e FR.
Perhaps I shouldn't say anything (since I don't plan to actually use the official 4E version of the setting), but I don't think any particular deities should be set up to be overwhelmingly prominent, good or evil. I thought Shar was made out to be too much of an "It Girl of Evil" even back in the 3E version of the setting, before 4E was even announced.
On the other hand, the Selune vs. Shar conflict does have a long history in the setting, and it should never have been overshadowed by the Mystra vs. Shar conflict.
On the other hand, the Selune vs. Shar conflict does have a long history in the setting, and it should never have been overshadowed by the Mystra vs. Shar conflict.
Part of the reason she and the weave were snuffed, I imagine.
There will be no god(dess) of magic going forward. Wizards, Warlocks, etc. perhaps, but no "magic."
IIRC Corellon gets the magic spot in the PHB, but you are correct though selune might get/keep moon magic and shar could keep shadow magic in her protfolio - she already lost her part of the weave.
Eliminster absorbed them. And now we just need to track down the Simbul to bring back Mystra. ;)
Sorry but I dissagree, maybe he absorbed them too- but its not likely sice they wrote that he is afraid that some of them might take controll of him... and to be honest the Simbul is IMO the best canidate to succeed her, maybe as a goddes of kicking ass, with the trow mountains portfolio :D
Perhaps I shouldn't say anything (since I don't plan to actually use the official 4E version of the setting), but I don't think any particular deities should be set up to be overwhelmingly prominent, good or evil. I thought Shar was made out to be too much of an "It Girl of Evil" even back in the 3E version of the setting, before 4E was even announced.
On the other hand, the Selune vs. Shar conflict does have a long history in the setting, and it should never have been overshadowed by the Mystra vs. Shar conflict.
I agree, Shar was a very tastefully done goddess and I really likes the nihilistic aspect. Her picture from F&P has graced my RPG binder for 4 years now :D .
About the conflicts Mystril was created as part of the conflict and Shar always knew how to keep a grudge and since Mystril betrayed her when he (?) sided with his other mother Selune, beating her was a way to hurt her sister. If I understand the dynamic correctly Shar wouldn´t really destroy her sister but rewind the setting to the start: only her and her sister (and and lifeless chauntea).
That said I think the overexposure was the problem suddenly she was responsible for everything, it´s ok if several plans bloom togehther but it was a bit too much.
Sorry but I dissagree, maybe he absorbed them too- but its not likely sice they wrote that he is afraid that some of them might take controll of him.
Which is exactly why I believe he absorbed The Chosen. El' has a splice of a goddess in him--enough that he can control. Now imagine you quadruple, quintuple, sextuple. etc. this splice. You're a jar made for one quart and you suddenly find yourself holding six quarts? You're ready to bust as is.
Now, consider that each extra quart has a personality all its own and, as a piece of Mystra, herself, the essence of magic itself. It's close to being one in the same. So, when he attempts to use magic, he risks losing that of what he has absorbed--it comes to the forefront in an effort to escape free. And, if you need it to bring your goddess back, are you going to risk losing it--or yourself?
... and to be honest the Simbul is IMO the best canidate to succeed her, maybe as a goddes of kicking ass, with the trow mountains portfolio :D
And I agree. Which is probably why she the one who has gone "missing," rather than labeled dead or unknown.
Sorry to quash your plan but there is only 1 spell to travel through time in Faerun introduced in the Netheril Arcane Age box (free download wiazrds homepage) you can travel back in time but you can´t actually change stuff.
Of course if you can find a Time Gate they work the same IIRC, they wer introduced in an online article some years ago.
And really ruin it if a PC actually does manage it the chances are that shar senses this secret and kills the guy immediately. After all the has the power according to the deity book in that edition.
1) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b is introduced with a FR logo at the top and at best warnings about paradox
2) the scheme I introduced involves slight DM tweaking of the base storyline and is deliberately set up so that someone could very easily think they're changing the past only to find out that they created the Spellplague. After all, had Mystra discovered the plot differently then she could have actively fought to stop Cyric instead of concerning herself with Cyric.
3) The time travel limitations in 2E were set by the Goddess of Magic and can be waived at her whim
4) Even if 4E were not attempting to move away from the concepts of omniscient divinities, Mystra has enough rank now to block Shar's remote sensing, any spellbased detections of Shar's are child's play and artifact's have been used in FR fiction that render the wielder completely immune to divine detection or detection by divine agents (namely the armband provided by Oghma to the keeper of the Cyrinishad.)
The slightest application of rule 0 (this is a DM plot, players don't control Mystra) and this works. Compared to the insane amount of author fiat to set up the Spellplague in the first place, supporting my alternate history is easy.
Which is exactly why I believe he absorbed The Chosen. El' has a splice of a goddess in him--enough that he can control. Now imagine you quadruple, quintuple, sextuple. etc. this splice. You're a jar made for one quart and you suddenly find yourself holding six quarts? You're ready to bust as is.
Now, consider that each extra quart has a personality all its own and, as a piece of Mystra, herself, the essence of magic itself. It's close to being one in the same. So, when he attempts to use magic, he risks losing that of what he has absorbed--it comes to the forefront in an effort to escape free. And, if you need it to bring your goddess back, are you going to risk losing it--or yourself?
And I agree. Which is probably why she the one who has gone "missing," rather than labeled dead or unknown.
Ok really not bad, I like it but honestly I don´t think it´s all that likely.
Ok really not bad, I like it but honestly I don´t think it´s all that likely.
Well, to each their own, of course. I just find it funny that all The Chosen, besides El', are are somewhat accounted for and that he is still around--neutralized--because he has absorbed the personalities of "several powerful beings."
Who might they be?
I would see this as a plot hook, for sure. All those people who want Mystra back can have her, as we'll instill the possibility in the campaign setting and let it flow as it is.
Hell, my DM brought back Bane years before it actually happened--simply because that possibility existed. It just makes sense to me. As Rino has stated--and we all know--Mystra spread her essence around to avoid such a death. With El' making it a point to "absorb" certain personalities, it's only likely....
1) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b is introduced with a FR logo at the top and at best warnings about paradox
2) the scheme I introduced involves slight DM tweaking of the base storyline and is deliberately set up so that someone could very easily think they're changing the past only to find out that they created the Spellplague. After all, had Mystra discovered the plot differently then she could have actively fought to stop Cyric instead of concerning herself with Cyric.
3) The time travel limitations in 2E were set by the Goddess of Magic and can be waived at her whim
4) Even if 4E were not attempting to move away from the concepts of omniscient divinities, Mystra has enough rank now to block Shar's remote sensing, any spellbased detections of Shar's are child's play and artifact's have been used in FR fiction that render the wielder completely immune to divine detection or detection by divine agents (namely the armband provided by Oghma to the keeper of the Cyrinishad.)
The slightest application of rule 0 (this is a DM plot, players don't control Mystra) and this works. Compared to the insane amount of author fiat to set up the Spellplague in the first place, supporting my alternate history is easy.
Fair enough the spell is broken as hell especially if you only go back one day, that said it actually does work and with it you can go back in time and change things.
2. If the plan works and Mystra is informed about what hapens, well you might just let her decide that things arent really that bad afterwards. Mystra could become Midnight again leave an Avatar/Simulacrum behind to get killed and blow up the plane.
After all after the spellplague has ended more people seem to have easier acces to magic, Shar´s no longer interrested in tearing holes in Mystras body,
she doesn´t have to maintain and repair the weave all the time .... Midnight could like it .......ok its pretty much B.S but it could work for some groups while staying with canon - it worked for Myrkul after all :D
3. They were set by Mystril and neither Mystra ever changed them, after they are dead Shar prevetns the rise of a new god of magic so noonone could change it - but nevertheless the new spell exists.
4.I am quite happy with this move myself and if we look at the abilities they gave them in F&P, Kelemvor would have know that his old buddy was killing his old girlfriend, Mystra would have know that people would no longer cast difficult spells in some months and so on so unless all three were playing on a sava board (or lets say they played on a weave shaped monopoly and now cyric´s in prison for 1000 years) .
But actually there is one more log to throw between the stories legs: after her death magic immediately got weaker and more complex spells ceased to work (read Undeath I can recommend it - Tszas is the Hero IMO ) and if you do it after the main spellplauge ended it might be very dangeraus to travel through time considering the damaged weave. That said if you want t allow it as DM and can controll your players - there are no good reasons for it notto work - but if you want to stop a player from screwing up time there are enough ways for you to stop him without using the elven god of time and time elementals
Well, to each their own, of course. I just find it funny that all The Chosen, besides El', are are somewhat accounted for and that he is still around--neutralized--because he has absorbed the personalities of "several powerful beings."
Who might they be?
I would see this as a plot hook, for sure. All those people who want Mystra back can have her, as we'll instill the possibility in the campaign setting and let it flow as it is.
Hell, my DM brought back Bane years before it actually happened--simply because that possibility existed. It just makes sense to me. As Rino has stated--and we all know--Mystra spread her essence around to avoid such a death. With El' making it a point to "absorb" certain personalities, it's only likely....
These were my first thoughts actually too, one of the reason she gave so much of her power to her chosen was as a failsave - the other that divine rank 27 was to much for AO.
But as facts go Shar prevents the rise of a new god of magic so they are stuck with power the might not be able to access, and as far as I know they have said 0 on the chosen they promised it in one of the first countdown to the realms but it never came.
"Legacy" of Mystra?. A child that Elminster is raising that is Mystra's last child. The stories that could be told around that would be interesting indeed. Considering that Elminster can't use his magic know without possibly loosing his mind to other personalities within him, it would be interesting indeed.
Of maybe Elminster doughter´s daughter´s doughters´doughter ? :D
That said if you want t allow it as DM and can controll your players - there are no good reasons for it notto work - but if you want to stop a player from screwing up time there are enough ways for you to stop him without using the elven god of time and time elementals
In the same point there is no reason why it can't work more. The Spellplague pretty much creates chaos where anything and everything can happen.
Thus, 4e. :D
.
But as facts go Shar prevents the rise of a new god of magic so they are stuck with power the might not be able to access, and as far as I know they have said 0 on the chosen they promised it in one of the first countdown to the realms but it never came.
Huh? Sorry. Can't make heads or tails of what you just said.
Shar is preventing a new God/Goddess of Magic from rising.
They have provided no information on the Chosen Of Mystra which was promissed.
Hope that helps The Dookie!
Translation:
Shar is preventing a new God/Goddess of Magic from rising.
They have provided no information on the Chosen Of Mystra which was promissed.
Hope that helps The Dookie!
Thanks, X. What would I do without you...
Now, what they hell did you just say?
Thanks, X. What would I do without you...
Flounder most likely, I would imagine.
Flounder most likely, I would imagine.
As I tend to flounder now with your lack of answering my question?
That's it! I'm killin' xmen455 out of spite!
That said I think the overexposure was the problem suddenly she was responsible for everything, it´s ok if several plans bloom togehther but it was a bit too much.
With regards to Shar, that's exactly how it seemed to me.
As I tend to flounder now with your lack of answering my question?
That's it! I'm killin' xmen455 out of spite!
Thnak-you. That particular personality had been quite an irritation of late. It was just like getting rid of an annoying itch that you just can't quite reach. So once again, I give you my thanks JD!:D
How about this answer then.
He was right on point 1. Partially right on point 2 and partially wrong on point 2 as there has been some moention of the Chosen of Mystra, but they had not been given a specific article all to themselves.
All better now?
Thnak-you. That particular personality had been quite an irritation of late. It was just like getting rid of an annoying itch that you just can't quite reach. So once again, I give you my thanks JD!:D
Welcome. Anything for you, my man. ;)
I've been thinking about smokin' xmen439 for a bit, so just let me know.
How about this answer then.
He was right on point 1. Partially right on point 2 and partially wrong on point 2 as there has been some moention of the Chosen of Mystra, but they had not been given a specific article all to themselves.
All better now?
I'll just take your word on this, as it makes neither of us incorrect, nor right. They are opinions, after all.
Thnak-you. That particular personality had been quite an irritation of late. It was just like getting rid of an annoying itch that you just can't quite reach. So once again, I give you my thanks JD!:D
How about this answer then.
He was right on point 1. Partially right on point 2 and partially wrong on point 2 as there has been some moention of the Chosen of Mystra, but they had not been given a specific article all to themselves.
All better now?
Mind giving the source? I can´t seem to find it.
But actually there is one more log to throw between the stories legs: after her death magic immediately got weaker and more complex spells ceased to work (read Undeath I can recommend it - Tszas is the Hero IMO ) and if you do it after the main spellplauge ended it might be very dangeraus to travel through time considering the damaged weave. That said if you want t allow it as DM and can controll your players - there are no good reasons for it notto work - but if you want to stop a player from screwing up time there are enough ways for you to stop him without using the elven god of time and time elementals
Originally, it had been designed as background data, a way to spare Mystra without altering an excess of 4E info (and involve chronomancy without either completely losing control or screwing over any attempt to alter history). As such, I was more concerned with preventing paradox than I was limiting the effect of player characters on the time stream. I was also able to handwave a variety of limitations by making the entity that warned Mystra a high ranking and excessively well prepared archwizard who had worked out this scenario long in advance as a response to Mystra disappearing for any vast length of time without a successor coming up. Mystra's favor is a useful bypass that would not be quite so readily available to most 4E characters.
I wouldn't exactly mind seeing it as a campaign but I don't have the time, energy or inclination to try and arrange it right now. Eh well, it makes a fun concept for me to tinker with periodically.
It's probably the evil human mages and all the nonhuman mages he "absorbs" (sounds like a freaking paper towel commercial, not some high magic fluff 
) that might rattle his beard a bit though. Imagine all those Netherese Archliches, those Elven High Magi, Dwarven mages, and possibly the dragons with pure mage levels...put all that together and it would hurt Mind giving the source? I can´t seem to find it.
The source on part 2? I don't have it specifically bookmarked. I remember reading from the responses by certain developers that some of the Chosen will still be around, just not as prominently as before. It was just in a general threads and not in the Ask the Authors or in a Preview article or anything like that. Just mentioned in conversation. Sorry I can't be more careful.
-As I have mentioned numerous times before, I cannot see WotC not somehow using the resurrection of Mystra as some kind of novel/adventure plot hook. In the end, she probably won't come back, as the reasons she was eliminated will still exist, but people looking to see her return wouldn't know that until (theoretically) spending the money and buying the product.
maybe in order for her to comeback she must accept the magic rules as they are
maybe in order for her to comeback she must accept the magic rules as they are
-Well, as the munchkins from the Wizard of Oz said, "She is quite assurely dead", or something to that effect. The removal of Mystra, for whatever reason, was deemed a necessary thing for the designers. They cite that her existence threatens the 4e system of casting magic, but I disagree, and believe that, again, the misperception that Mystra is a righteous Superman is really why she was removed. Because of that, I don't think she'll be making a reappearance. If it really was because of that first reason, then perhaps. But, since odds are it isn't...
-Well, as the munchkins from the Wizard of Oz said, "She is quite assurely dead", or something to that effect. The removal of Mystra, for whatever reason, was deemed a necessary thing for the designers. They cite that her existence threatens the 4e system of casting magic, but I disagree, and believe that, again, the misperception that Mystra is a righteous Superman is really why she was removed. Because of that, I don't think she'll be making a reappearance. If it really was because of that first reason, then perhaps. But, since odds are it isn't...
I can see her coming back down the road in a few years. But the capacity in which she will return will be different. She and the weave have officially separated and cannot be rejoined. With the other gods of magical relation out of the way, she could very well take up the mantle of goddess of "magic users" and "arcana" and such. Puts her back in the mix, without giving her power over any others.
Well, to each their own, of course. I just find it funny that all The Chosen, besides El', are are somewhat accounted for and that he is still around--neutralized--because he has absorbed the personalities of "several powerful beings."
Who might they be?
The seven sisters.. which means hell go dance naked once a week with just a sword :P
All the other proxies of mystra, no doubt.
The nameless one is gone already, absorbed by the mythal... and the silver fire fired away. Did mystra create another proxy we know naught of yet?
I can see her coming back down the road in a few years. But the capacity in which she will return will be different. She and the weave have officially separated and cannot be rejoined. With the other gods of magical relation out of the way, she could very well take up the mantle of goddess of "magic users" and "arcana" and such. Puts her back in the mix, without giving her power over any others.
-Eh, like I said, I don't think so. I don't think the Weave was the problem, but was cited as the problem as an excuse, so to speak, to not "admit" why she was being removed (that reason being the discussed misperception of what she does and how she acts).
Whatever the case, minds do change. Hmm. If the RPGA pushes for it, I wonder if WotC will listen? After all, if the fans playing actually say "We want Mystra back", then that might convince WotC that Mystra's presence wasn't as detrimental as previously believed. Eh, who knows?
I agree, at this point, it seems like it will just be a good adventure hook. But if three years of stagnant sales tend to unfold, there is your first 4e RSE.
A RSE which I wholeheartedly endorse. IMO, it'd be pretty cool if it played out as an LFR thing. How sweet would it be if the LFR heads came up with overarching plotline for this, and then each region handled a specific piece of the puzzle?
Very cool indeed.
-Eh, I never liked Mystra much to begin with, so really, it matters little to me, if she does come back or not. I just don't like this "There doesn't have to be a deity of magic! Magic can exist freely!" thing. That just isn't how it works here.
Well, at least at the moment, we are stuck with three options:
1) Mystra dead
2) Mystra returns without magic in her portfolio
3) You go watch Sex and the City reruns and get back in touch with your inner-self
Which one you want?
-Well, as the munchkins from the Wizard of Oz said, "She is quite assurely dead", or something to that effect.
And now munchkins are saying that about Mystra!
Sorry, couldn't resist!:P
All the other proxies of mystra, no doubt.
The nameless one is gone already, absorbed by the mythal... and the silver fire fired away. Did mystra create another proxy we know naught of yet?
Well, if we don't know about it, how could we answer that?;)
And now munchkins are saying that about Mystra!
Sorry, couldn't resist!:P
I'll get you my pretty and your little cat too
1) Mystra dead
-Don't like it, but it is what it is.
2) Mystra returns without magic in her portfolio
-I just can't see this happening.
3) You go watch Sex and the City reruns and get back in touch with your inner-self
-Well, Rino, looks like we are going to have to see this movie next weekend. I apparently need to get in touch with my inner-self...:embarrass
And now munchkins are saying that about Mystra!
Sorry, couldn't resist!:P
(It's true, though!)
option 5) WotC doesn't make enough money off their Nuke FR campaign to cover half the publishing cost of the books and drops the setting
vastly more unlikely than I'd like (at least for option 4, 5 is merely vindictive unless I'm certain someone better will pick up the setting) but I'm allowed to dream and since I'm a touch cranky, my dreams aren't particularly nice
I'll continue hoping for Mystra's return to canon material as Lady of Magic but I'm not betting on it.
I'd say option 5 was far more likely than option 4 myself...
-I don't agree there. It's far more likely thay'd attempt to backtrack and fix any "damage" before they outright drop the entire line.
-Well, as the munchkins from the Wizard of Oz said, "She is quite assurely dead", or something to that effect. The removal of Mystra, for whatever reason, was deemed a necessary thing for the designers. They cite that her existence threatens the 4e system of casting magic, but I disagree, and believe that, again, the misperception that Mystra is a righteous Superman is really why she was removed. Because of that, I don't think she'll be making a reappearance. If it really was because of that first reason, then perhaps. But, since odds are it isn't...
I agree largely with your statement here, although I do think there is truth on both sides of the argument. Let's not forget that WotC's goal for 4th Edition is to make a Points of Light setting. In order to accomplish that in the Realms (in there eyes) there needed to be massive changes. It's hard to convince Mystra allowing such changes to take place as she was easily known as one of the most meddling deities in the entire setting. So I think in WotC's eyes her removal was necessary, though for the reasons you stated.
I don't think anyone could disagree that there is no other deity who has gotten more face time than Mystra and her various surrogates. She was turned into the "it gurl" of all things good and heroic in the Realm's. Whether that was right or wrong is irrelevant to what she became in the eyes of many, and thus - like you said - I believe WotC got rid of her for that reason, and because her existence would have conflicted with their redesign of the setting.
-Eh, I never liked Mystra much to begin with, so really, it matters little to me, if she does come back or not. I just don't like this "There doesn't have to be a deity of magic! Magic can exist freely!" thing. That just isn't how it works here.
I also agree here. I loved (and still love) the concept of the Weave. I just never cared for its caretaker. One of the major things that bothered me about Mystra was the fact that she reminded me of one of those bouncing clowns. You know the ones where you punch them, they fall over, then bounce back up? She's died twice previously and came back. I hate it when PC's get raises / resurrections - I hate it even more when powerful beings such as deities come back just as easily.
If Mystra were to come back a third time it would not only completely undermine everything that happened as a result of her death, it would also be completely ridiculous. It makes such epic acts completely irrelevant and redundant.
That being said, I have a feeling Mystra will be back. In many ways, she is no different than Drizzt. She has tons of fanboiz and fangurlz who will clamor and complain about her death until they bring her back. In fact, I imagine that a sizeable portion of them will attempt to boycott 4E until they bring her back. I think many of them would happily play in the 4E Realm's, ignoring all the horrific acts done to the setting itself, so long as Mystra existed in it. The same may go for many of her Chosen, Drizzt and other such fanboi solicitors.
I think we have to keep in mind that the vast majority of Realm's players likely do not even know of her death as of yet. These aren't the serious enthusiasts such as us, they are more the types that keep up to date with the setting based on their favorite characters rather than the setting itself. Hence, Drizzt and the like could be moved to Grayhawk and be equally satisfying in the eyes of most of his fangurlz and the same is also true for Mystra. In most cases, most of them wouldn't even likely know the difference.
It is that aspect of Mystra that I like, andsome of her laws, too, such as the laws on time travel and mage symbols, but those I see as part of 'responsible use of magic'.
It's what one of my PCs (born after the spellplague) will promote as her teachings (just because the goddess is dead, does not mean her tenets are). She's a lone voice, but maybe she can make people care ;)
Gomez
-I don't agree there. It's far more likely thay'd attempt to backtrack and fix any "damage" before they outright drop the entire line.
i agree. of the 2, thats more likely
I'll get you my pretty and your little cat too
-Well, Rino, looks like we are going to have to see this movie next weekend. I apparently need to get in touch with my inner-self...:embarrass
Not a half-bad idea, if I do say so myself.:D
Well, Rino, looks like we are going to have to see this movie next weekend. I apparently need to get in touch with my inner-self...:embarrass
why would you want to get in touch with your inner-self? And do you think that watching Sex & the City would help with that?
-I don't agree there. It's far more likely thay'd attempt to backtrack and fix any "damage" before they outright drop the entire line.
Depends on if the setting tanked or not. There's a certain 'what have you done for me lately' attitude with a lot of these decisions that makes me think some twit in a suit would sooner drop the setting if it tanked rather than putting in the effort to fix it... I'd prefer the setting was fixed obviously, but I tend to be extraordinarily pessimistic where most business majors are concerned.
Depends on if the setting tanked or not. There's a certain 'what have you done for me lately' attitude with a lot of these decisions that makes me think some twit in a suit would sooner drop the setting if it tanked rather than putting in the effort to fix it... I'd prefer the setting was fixed obviously, but I tend to be extraordinarily pessimistic where most business majors are concerned.
Yeah, but if they determine that the FR books sold better before 4E, they may try a retcon before giving up on it
It's hard to convince Mystra allowing such changes to take place as she was easily known as one of the most meddling deities in the entire setting. So I think in WotC's eyes her removal was necessary, though for the reasons you stated.
-As has been stated, with the change concerning the "laws" of magic, and the elminination of what we know as the Weave and the Shadow Weave, a story could be...weaved (pun intended) in which the Weave and the Shadow Weave are both eliminated, and the new rules of magic are instituted, and Mystra's role is minimalized, but she retains her "life".
I also agree here. I loved (and still love) the concept of the Weave. I just never cared for its caretaker.
-Agreed. As I have said in the past, Mystra is to Ed Greenwood as Shar is to WotC.
why would you want to get in touch with your inner-self? And do you think that watching Sex & the City would help with that?
-That's apparently what I have to do. That's what JD said.
-That's apparently what I have to do. That's what JD said.
The man goes by the name of "Dookie"
Yeah, but if they determine that the FR books sold better before 4E, they may try a retcon before giving up on it
Maybe. I would hope they would, but I wouldn't really expect it to be honest... in every professional dealing I've ever had with a business major, its been painful watching them make some of the most idiotic decisions I've ever had the horror of watching in the name of capturing a larger share of the market and 'being the next pottery barn' or whatever... I'm sure they're (business majors) not all morons, at least I hope so, but WotC isn't giving me much hope on the ones they've got running the business end of things.
Maybe. I would hope they would, but I wouldn't really expect it to be honest... in every professional dealing I've ever had with a business major, its been painful watching them make some of the most idiotic decisions I've ever had the horror of watching in the name of capturing a larger share of the market and 'being the next pottery barn' or whatever... I'm sure they're (business majors) not all morons, at least I hope so, but WotC isn't giving me much hope on the ones they've got running the business end of things.
I do understand your pessimism
Yes, they could have just stated that Mystra attempted to absorb the Shadow Weave, things screwed up and went a bit haywire for awhile... and in the end Mystra had to make major modifications to the Weave to allow it to function. Her attempt to absorb the Shadow Weave could have led to the Spellplague, etc. The new forms of magic could all be viewed as a more strict way of viewing "spell schools". The Weave serves as an interface to draw from the power sources.
It could have been worked out. It wasn't difficult and the hooks already existed in the lore.
However, I think Mystra was beginning to be viewed as a troublesome goddess who meddled far too much in the world and had too much attention placed upon her - to the detriment of other aspects of the setting and deities. I think there is some truth to that.
Also, we cannot overlook just how much the setting revolved around Mystra. The only reason Shar got so much face time was that she was the main enemy of Mystra, the only other deity in the lore that could really be argued to be her equal in terms of power, influence and ability. Had Mystra not gotten so much face time it is doubtful Shar would have gotten as much as she had - if any at all - and other 'big bads' would have made more of an appearance. (I would have placed my money on Bane.)
A major problem I have with WotC is that they seem to lack the ability to multitask. When one deity makes an appearance it feels like all the other deities are essentially doing nothing. The world can go through a horrific RSE due to the actions of one or two deities and there are certain deities out there - such as Talos - which never get any face time. They never seem to have any interaction with the world that is comparable to whatever deity seems to be popular at the moment.
Half the stuff that takes place involving the deities simply wouldn't happen because other deities, of all levels of power, would immediately jump in to intervene. I always view the gods in a sort of cold war. If they take too active of a role then their enemies are sure to jump in immediately to counter them. They'll just be overwhelmed. So they are forced to work through surrogates (mortals) to do their battles.
Well, if we don't know about it, how could we answer that?;)
Well that was a bit of a rhetorical question, exactly because it cannot be known.. yet. But knowing the WHY she has them, reason follows she must create another proxy.
Well that was a bit of a rhetorical question, exactly because it cannot be known.. yet. But knowing the WHY she has them, reason follows she must create another proxy.
She might have done that, but if so, no such proxy has yet shown up in the official lore.
A major problem I have with WotC is that they seem to lack the ability to multitask. When one deity makes an appearance it feels like all the other deities are essentially doing nothing. The world can go through a horrific RSE due to the actions of one or two deities and there are certain deities out there - such as Talos - which never get any face time. They never seem to have any interaction with the world that is comparable to whatever deity seems to be popular at the moment.
Yeah, like Bane. He comes back and he does... nothing? Seriously, barely a peep. What the-?!?
The man goes by the name of "Dookie"
And what, may I ask, is wrong with Dookie?
I'll have you know, I was named after my great-great-grandfather, Dookielius III, the finest soldier to ever fight in World War 1 and 1/2! Hmph...
Yeah, like Bane. He comes back and he does... nothing? Seriously, barely a peep. What the-?!?
I think Bane was to come in and go toe-to-toe with Cyric--probably with an all out church war--but by the time they started rolling it all out, they saw 4e on the horizon and let the plot fizzle, rather than spend time developing it.
And what, may I ask, is wrong with Dookie?
I suppose its better than pookie
I suppose its better than pookie
My mothers name....
However, I think Mystra was beginning to be viewed as a troublesome goddess who meddled far too much in the world and had too much attention placed upon her - to the detriment of other aspects of the setting and deities. I think there is some truth to that.
Also, we cannot overlook just how much the setting revolved around Mystra. The only reason Shar got so much face time was that she was the main enemy of Mystra, the only other deity in the lore that could really be argued to be her equal in terms of power, influence and ability. Had Mystra not gotten so much face time it is doubtful Shar would have gotten as much as she had - if any at all - and other 'big bads' would have made more of an appearance. (I would have placed my money on Bane.)
-To say that she was made to have too much influence over things that she has no reason to have influence over, I agree. As I have discussed with other people, there is no reason to have Mystra involved in the casting of Divine Spells. There is no reason to have Mystr involved in any way with Psionics. The fact that people rumble over the concept that, in their minds, life should cease to be sustained shows how she has been weaved (again, pun intended) too deeply into the fabric of the setting, by Ed Greenwood, and TSR, while the Forgotten Realms were in their stewardship.
-The complaints I am citing concerning Mystra, however, are not the commonly heard ones. The ones I am citing are in the relative minority, concerning complaints concerning Mystra. The majority of complaints concerning Mystra are the run of the mill, "She is LG, meddlesome, an so one and so forth, with her superhero Chosen who act like the Justice League". Those complaints have no realistic merit, as they are based on incorrect information to begin with. The ones I am citing, however, not so much.
And what, may I ask, is wrong with Dookie?
I'll have you know, I was named after my great-great-grandfather, Dookielius III, the finest soldier to ever fight in World War 1 and 1/2! Hmph...
-Any relation to Count Dooku?
-Any relation to Count Dooku?
Yeah. It's a dark side of our family we don't like to discuss.
Count Dookie?
My family no longer Counts anymore. We simply Judge.
We just want to distance ourselves from such things.
Excellent. My entry is waiting for you in my bathroom, so get to judging.
I don't deal in backwater county fairs. Sorry, my man. I'll be sure to get in touch with Boss Hogg, so he and Roscoe can get to work.
I. Don't. Judge. Dookie!
It's like being named Peter or Dick. You just have to deal.
Count Dookie?
sounds like a cereal
-To say that she was made to have too much influence over things that she has no reason to have influence over, I agree. As I have discussed with other people, there is no reason to have Mystra involved in the casting of Divine Spells. There is no reason to have Mystr involved in any way with Psionics. The fact that people rumble over the concept that, in their minds, life should cease to be sustained shows how she has been weaved (again, pun intended) too deeply into the fabric of the setting, by Ed Greenwood, and TSR, while the Forgotten Realms were in their stewardship.
While I am admittedly pro-Mystra to an extreme that might even constitute fanboy for the purposes of my reation to WotC's behaviour. There are regions where I don't want her influence. Psionics is at the very top of the list. I like 3.X psionics. I don't particularly mind her influence over Divine Magic but I also won't fight as hard as I could to protect it. My only interest in tying the setting's fate to the Weave is as an argument against the Spellplague. Otherwise, the evidence is contradictory at best and speaks against it at worst. Since, even if I could make the case that lasting destruction to the Weave would destroy Toril, WotC would invoke retcon, I see no point in trying that tactic.
sounds like a cereal
I shudder to think what the ingredients might be.
While I am admittedly pro-Mystra to an extreme that might even constitute fanboy for the purposes of my reation to WotC's behaviour. There are regions where I don't want her influence.
-It's good to see that.
I love Mystra, but just like I don't think Shar should have been pushed to the forefront in terms of villainy, I don't think Mystra or her Chosen needed to be focused on excessively, either. Also, there was always more of an emphasis on Mystra's Chosen (a small number of individuals) over her actual clergy, which we rarely got to see.
-With such a large setting, no one should be stressed. There are so many individuals, problems, places, and so on to choose from...
Somewhat ontopic, but I always thought (well, not always) that it would've been neat if the head of her church was a Mystic Theurge.
-You'd think that. If I recall correctly, Mystra's church wasn't very centralized, if at all, so there would be multiple leaders of Mystra's faith.
-It's good to see that.
Not a new opinion in my case, which has occasionally been funny. It's hard not to love being accused of prejudice against the Lady for wanting psionics to remain independent. Admittedly, I didn't interact with that poster much, it'd have been more funny in one or two other cases.
I love Mystra, but just like I don't think Shar should have been pushed to the forefront in terms of villainy, I don't think Mystra or her Chosen needed to be focused on excessively, either. Also, there was always more of an emphasis on Mystra's Chosen (a small number of individuals) over her actual clergy, which we rarely got to see.
Her clergy would have been nice. I also wanted to see a story about a magister that was in good standing or one of the Weavespinners among other plotlines.
-With such a large setting, no one should be stressed. There are so many individuals, problems, places, and so on to choose from...
Completely agree there.
-You'd think that. If I recall correctly, Mystra's church wasn't very centralized, if at all, so there would be multiple leaders of Mystra's faith.
But wasn't there a giant Mystran Church in Waterdeep, with 3.5?
But wasn't there a giant Mystran Church in Waterdeep, with 3.5?
-Off-hand, don't know. That such a place exists, however, doesn't nullify my statement (if they are indeed uncentralized. As I said, that's how I remember it, but...). Across the world are numerous large and grand synogogues. That doesn't make Judiasm in any way centralized, however. There are a whole number of large and nice churches here in the U.S. That doesn't make these off-shoot protestant denominations centralized in any way.
But wasn't there a giant Mystran Church in Waterdeep, with 3.5?
Yes, there was.
I'm pretty sure it's not the center of Mystra's faith across Faerun (I'm not sure that there is one), but it's likely the center of her faith in Waterdeep and the immediate area beyond.Re: the Weavespinners--yes, more lore on them would have been nice. They are another nice example of those who serve Mystra without being "Chosen" (who are again, a relatively tiny group of individuals who don't always even work as a group).
I also agree that no single god, organization, or individual should be pushed to forefront of this setting.
I also agree that no single god, organization, or individual should be pushed to forefront of this setting.
Well, Bejebuz is free for a while....
On the whole centralized thing, I can't say yes or no. But I do remember reading something at some point, where the head priest of Mystra at one church had to relay and coordinate something with the all the head priests at the other churches.
I keep thinking it was during Prince of Lies. Though, the memory is faint....
-I was just checking Faiths and Avatars for something completely different, so while I had it in my hands, I gave Mystra's write-up a glance over. From what I extrapolated, her church is fairly uncentralized, with individual churches having their own ranking system, individual titles, and so on. In a world-wide centralized hierarchy, these would be the same from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, like how an ordinary Catholic priest in New Zealand has the same position, duties and prestige as an ordinary Catholic priest in Canada.
Agree and disagree. Read the same bit you did and would see it more like Christian denomination. Not quite decentralized, but not quite structured.
Read the same bit you did and would see it more like Christian denomination.
-Which would make it uncentralized. Majority of Christianity is.
-But, the most telling factor is that it makes no mention of a "capital"/"flagship"/"High" temple.
Weavespinner?
They appear in Secrets of the Magister along with a couple other types of lesser servant to Mystra. Basically Weavespinners in exchange for performing various tasks often presented through dream visions or other means Mystra found convenient were granted specific useful perks including a form of magical ID that Mystra prevented anyone from counterfeiting and 6 freebie spells per day. The freebie spells (which were not known as such) were open spell slots where a Weavespinner could cast a known but not prepared spell of an any level they could access. The spell used was determined at time of casting and slot use was divided up 2 offense, 2 defense, 2 utility. Relatively certain Weavespinners had other cool perks but those were most memorable and I'm not in the mood to hunt down the reference right now for the rest.
-Off-hand, don't know. That such a place exists, however, doesn't nullify my statement (if they are indeed uncentralized. As I said, that's how I remember it, but...). Across the world are numerous large and grand synogogues. That doesn't make Judiasm in any way centralized, however. There are a whole number of large and nice churches here in the U.S. That doesn't make these off-shoot protestant denominations centralized in any way.
Ah, I think I understand what you mean. Centralized in the sense of a Roman Catholic Church (with a Pope) that normalizes dogma and doctrine for all of the tiny local churches under them.
Mystra did have several great churches, but it's true that none looked to a "head of church" or "main church". The closest thing she would've had was Adon, but that didn't last very long and he wasn't someone who acted as an organizing principle for the faith.
Along these lines, seems to me that Bane's faith would be considered centralized. Lathander's would be centralized (except, I suppose for the Risen Sun heretics?). Oghma's faith -was- centralized but currently faces a division of sorts. Mielikki's faith would be completely uncentralized.
Ah, I think I understand what you mean. Centralized in the sense of a Roman Catholic Church (with a Pope) that normalizes dogma and doctrine for all of the tiny local churches under them.
Mystra did have several great churches, but it's true that none looked to a "head of church" or "main church". The closest thing she would've had was Adon, but that didn't last very long and he wasn't someone who acted as an organizing principle for the faith.
Along these lines, seems to me that Bane's faith would be considered centralized. Lathander's would be centralized (except, I suppose for the Risen Sun heretics?). Oghma's faith -was- centralized but currently faces a division of sorts. Mielikki's faith would be completely uncentralized.
-Right. Faiths and Avatars would be the source to see what deities have centralized churches, and what deities don't.
-But, the most telling factor is that it makes no mention of a "capital"/"flagship"/"High" temple.
Well, in a spiritual sense, it does. But I got ya. ;)
Well, in a spiritual sense, it does. But I got ya. ;)
-Well, and in a technical, physical sense sense. There could be a Wizard 20 / Cleric (Mystra) 20 / Mystic Theurge 10, who is unsurpassed in terms of power, but he still wouldn't be the leader of Mystra's church, as there is no one leader.
-Well, and in a technical, physical sense sense. There could be a Wizard 20 / Cleric (Mystra) 20 / Mystic Theurge 10, who is unsurpassed in terms of power, but he still wouldn't be the leader of Mystra's church, as there is no one leader.
Which is why I made the distinction and didn't dispute the grounds you had already laid out in a technical, physical sense.
Wasn't Adon the head of her church while he lived?
Ah, that's his name.
I think they viewed him as the head, but, nonetheless, there was no hierarchy beneath him to consider the church structured enough for it to be centralized.
Wasn't Adon the head of her church while he lived?
-Of where ever he was "stationed", sure. You think her Halruuan church, which was already established and such and such wanted to hear anything of him?
-Of where ever he was "stationed", sure. You think her Halruuan church, which was already established and such and such wanted to hear anything of him?
Its a bit different with Adon though.
-Well, and in a technical, physical sense sense. There could be a Wizard 20 / Cleric (Mystra) 20 / Mystic Theurge 10,
She's 4'7", just shy of 3000, anti-social, ill-tempered, lacks an adequate appreciation for any sarcasm but her own and is currently running errands on another world due to her utter inability to get along with Azuth.
She'd also singlehandedly destroy most of Mystra's clerical servants out of sheer pique if she controlled one church let alone all of them.
She's 4'7", just shy of 3000, anti-social, ill-tempered, lacks an adequate appreciation for any sarcasm but her own and is currently running errands on another world due to her utter inability to get along with Azuth.
-3000 years old, or 3000 pounds?
I like ****** and grumpy planeswalkers... What's the name of this 50th level servant of Mystra?
I like ****** and grumpy planeswalkers...
-Even though she is either 3000 years old, or 3000 pounds.
"Rememeber Lisa, she has a butt the size of a Galleon!"
"Umpf!"
Presuming she's a true Mystran, it certainly would be a motivational tool that just happened to have the benefit of suiting a fit of pique as well... isn't that rather the point afterall?
True. She and I both have various less polite methods of encouraging creativity in Art than some of what people commonly hear of. She adopted the "curse the moron" approach as a side item some time back so she could vent at the same time.