The long and short of it all. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The long and short of it all.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
strange_creatures
Jan 09, 2009 7:48:34 Hello all.
Ive been reading through a few of the complaint threads about 4thed. Mainly for the "lol's" but many of them refer to the way that WotC has treated the Forgotten realms. I plan to run a campaign in this setting soon and i have read through the players guide to the realms. I personally do not see any problems with this (Aside from the HUGE amount of towns) and would like yo know what horrible atrocities have been committed just in case i have misread or not read them.

Thanks.
-Strange Creatures
#2
Stigger
Jan 09, 2009 8:25:18 Depends on if you know much about the previous versions of the setting. If you do, the massive alterations should be fairly obvious... if you don't, then it hardly matters much, nor should it. Boiled down, in 3e there were a plethora of complaints about this NPC, that deity, etcetera and so forth, though they were hardly a majority around these boards, which were generally treated with exasperated explanations of why their view wasn't really true, at least the way they were presenting them. The 4e Realms seems to have catered to their complaints and objections, which obviously found resonance with the designers, and so many of what "we" perceived to be false impressions were given credibility and traction, until they became a fact in practice, if not really in actuality.

Biggest complaint thus far is generally in the "nuking" (Chris Perkins words there) of several iconic gods and NPCs, the advancement of the timeline over a century, and the notion that Shar has been given license to run rampant over the setting as a GDPC. Add to that list a good amount of well loved authors works being effectively made irrelevant and it only adds fuel to the flames. Essentially it comes down to huge amounts of lore being effectively tossed out the window to appease what are perceived by those around here as folks who didn't really like the Realms in the first place at the expense of the fans who did.

As to what actually happened? Not sure, doubt anyone outside of the designers is, and at this point, I'm not really all that interested. So, if you're into it, cool, if you're not, that's cool too.
#3
faraer
Jan 09, 2009 8:26:40 Wizards stopped publishing the Realms, thus ending Ed Greenwood's twenty-year project of detailing it in print and leaving millions of words of Realmslore and hundreds of stories with no prospect of seeing the light, in favour of a derivative two-book mini-setting, largely shorn of Ed's unique vision and voice, that answers to a mostly different set of commercial and artistic purposes and principles.

As a setting in its own right, it's a flesh golem rather than an as-if-real organic world, and I'm not much interested in it.

But people who like the new setting more than I do should still be able to see the great loss that's occurred.

If you're interested in richly creative, highly detailed fantasy settings, I recommend you look into the original Realms: it'll either be to your taste or it won't. If you don't feel like doing that, all this will make no difference to your enjoyment of a campaign with the new setting.
#4
strange_creatures
Jan 09, 2009 9:40:08 Thanks for the quick replies. :D

My experience in the FR is such: Baulders Gate 1&2 including expansions,Neverwinter nights (Which i know has been Obliterated.) and the first 4 Drizzt books.

So thats the scope at the changes i'm seeing.
#5
lord_karsus
Jan 09, 2009 11:11:47 -This belongs in the Forgotten Realms: General Discussion section. It'll be moved.
#6
markustay63
Jan 09, 2009 15:53:54 "huge amount of towns"?

It's rather obvious from the outset you would not understand our point of view... at all.
#7
Diffan
Jan 23, 2009 9:11:44
It's rather obvious from the outset you would not understand our point of view... at all.

Empathy.

I used to feel that people who hated FR4e should just get over it and if they can't then move on. But i've come to have some real empathy for them. I know what it's like to have something you love dearly and see it basically shred before your eyes. Though I'm not taking about D&D, I used to be a huge fan of football (NFL) and a long-time fan of the Seahawks. When I watch the (IMHO) atrocity that was Super Bowl XL, I could not belive my eyes. Something I've waited for for 22 years was (again IMHO) stolen and there was nothing I could do about it. Needless to say I was consumed with hate-filled rage at the Steelers, the refs, the moronic fans waving the terrible towels in the streets (i do live in Pittsburgh) and depressed to boot.

In time I'd come to the realization that I had two choices. The first was to accept what had happend (they weren't re-doing the game), and more importantly to move beyond that to the next season. To wipe the memory away and soldier on as they say. The second was to call it quits. I took the latter. I don't have regrets and it's given me more time to do things that are, now, more important. Yet the feeling remains when I think about football and now I only root for injuries (yea I know, I'm an a**hole).

But to wrap up this rant, for me FR4e wasn't something overly important to be extreamly mad about and the changes are to my liking. For those who are distraught and greatly up set about the changes, I feel for you. And maybe letting go of FR would help your disposition, or not going on with the current stuff. It helped me. Suffice to say, I've been there and with all honesty, good gaming.

PS. For any Steeler fans out there, no hard feelings.

EDIT: Sorry for de-railing this thread. The "atrocities" have been stated above but if FR was too Lore-heavy for you then 4e is just the right thing. Do keep in mind though earlier FR source books of 3e still have uses in (lore wise) and can be a great boon to your new campaign. Any specific region your interested in?
#8
kerym_ammath
Jan 23, 2009 14:10:19
PS. For any Steeler fans out there, no hard feelings.

Oh don't worry the Steeler Nation will find you, force you to wear Steeler gear, and drink mass quantities of Iron City (this last bit certainly rates up there with water boarding). :D One of my best friends is a Seahawks fan, so I certainly understand your pain, and won't open that can of worms, just remember every story has multiple sides to it.
#9
aardwolf
Jan 24, 2009 3:49:54 The world has changed alot, I wont say for the better or worse, because I honestly love the Forgotten Realms in all their incarnations. Alot of the things I personally loved about the realms changed and some of the things I didnt like changed. They added some thins I really like, and there are some things I am not too fired up about. The geographic changes are hurtful, but it is a good hurt to sometimes feel loss at things...it gives a fresh perspective. I am extremly eager to get my grubby meathooks on some new FR material and see what happens. I have the campaign guide and am anxiously waiting for the local exchange to get the players guide in :D
#10
rauric
Jan 24, 2009 18:09:42 This thread may just be asking for trouble. **ABORT**ABORT**

Just kidding. I am not bothered by much of the new FR but here are some examples of the changes. There were two islands Lantan and Nimbral. Lantan was wiped out by a tsunami and Nimbral just vanished, but it was an island filled with illusionists so who knows if it is gone. There was a nation of mages called Halruua that took a big hit from the Plague and they are all mercs now and the nation is in ruins. Evermeet the island of elves disappeared but I think it is in the Feywild (Fairie).
#11
Aegeri
Jan 24, 2009 18:37:12 I like most of the core changes to the setting myself and find they've just facilitated the way I like to run my games. Mostly because they leave a large amount of detail up to me to fill in and I rather like that. The primary problem you may have with the new setting isn't really anything to do with changes but how much work you want to put into it yourself. You have to write lots of your own new lore, NPCs and similar in 4th edition, because many of the most well known NPCs are dead, the 4E book is generally lore lite compared to 3E books, dragon is really failing to add more material to the realms (IMO) and there will only be two primary sourcebooks (again, compared to the 3E realms which had many). Again, this is something I don't mind but is a huge problem for other people: especially people who don't want or can't dedicate the time to doing that.

If you can get beyond this I think the setting is excellent. I can think of over 20+ different campaigns I would like to run now I've read the book and have collated a lot of material, notes and thoughts on places as I've gone. This is better than any Campaign Setting I've ever owned before short of Planescape (where you can honestly do anything to be frank). Again though, a lot of work has to be put in on my end to make a campaign work because of the very bare bones approach that 4E takes with regard to lore and similar.

My only real issue with the current setting is they should have gone further with some of the Deity deaths. Whacking Shar or having parts of Netheril (which is on floating cities/islands) crash into the ground and set them back a few pegs would have been good. At the moment Shar reminds me of some DMPC and it's not a good reminder. I don't like some of the random destruction, like blowing up Neverwinter and destroying Lantans Rest, but at the same time it doesn't actually matter because there is so much other stuff it doesn't affect anything I want to do. Lantans Rest would have been nice to have an explanation for Warforged characters if someone ever begged and offered their kitten to me to play one (or something similarly extreme). I don't like the world map either, which is a bit muddy and I prefer the 3E style of World Map. Also, I thought the FRPG was only ok. If it wasn't for the Swordmage Class, new feats and mechanical crunch I wouldn't have been terribly happy with it (also owning the FRCG).

These are minor gripes though in what I view as a more interesting setting with a lot more flexibility on the part of the DM (No metaplot, many former high level NPCs dead, splintering of several previously stable regions and less set in stone lore/NPCs in the actual book itself). My three campaigns are going very well, everyone is having fun and for the first time in years I can't wait to finish my campaigns so I can start three entirely new ones. I really want to run a "monster" campaign in The Beastlands or perhaps Najara - I need a Yuan-ti fix to get it out of my system.
#12
rauric
Jan 24, 2009 19:35:31 I too am not 100% thrilled with the Shar love affair. I wish to see her ousted from most of Netheril but Shade. I also want to see a few more floating cities pop up under other Princes rule so they can stick it to their brother and put him and his god in their place. Maybe Mask can do something about that ;) .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 strange_creatures Jan 09, 2009 7:48:34	Hello all. Ive been reading through a few of the complaint threads about 4thed. Mainly for the "lol's" but many of them refer to the way that WotC has treated the Forgotten realms. I plan to run a campaign in this setting soon and i have read through the players guide to the realms. I personally do not see any problems with this (Aside from the HUGE amount of towns) and would like yo know what horrible atrocities have been committed just in case i have misread or not read them. Thanks. -Strange Creatures
#2 Stigger Jan 09, 2009 8:25:18	Depends on if you know much about the previous versions of the setting. If you do, the massive alterations should be fairly obvious... if you don't, then it hardly matters much, nor should it. Boiled down, in 3e there were a plethora of complaints about this NPC, that deity, etcetera and so forth, though they were hardly a majority around these boards, which were generally treated with exasperated explanations of why their view wasn't really true, at least the way they were presenting them. The 4e Realms seems to have catered to their complaints and objections, which obviously found resonance with the designers, and so many of what "we" perceived to be false impressions were given credibility and traction, until they became a fact in practice, if not really in actuality. Biggest complaint thus far is generally in the "nuking" (Chris Perkins words there) of several iconic gods and NPCs, the advancement of the timeline over a century, and the notion that Shar has been given license to run rampant over the setting as a GDPC. Add to that list a good amount of well loved authors works being effectively made irrelevant and it only adds fuel to the flames. Essentially it comes down to huge amounts of lore being effectively tossed out the window to appease what are perceived by those around here as folks who didn't really like the Realms in the first place at the expense of the fans who did. As to what actually happened? Not sure, doubt anyone outside of the designers is, and at this point, I'm not really all that interested. So, if you're into it, cool, if you're not, that's cool too.
#3 faraer Jan 09, 2009 8:26:40	Wizards stopped publishing the Realms, thus ending Ed Greenwood's twenty-year project of detailing it in print and leaving millions of words of Realmslore and hundreds of stories with no prospect of seeing the light, in favour of a derivative two-book mini-setting, largely shorn of Ed's unique vision and voice, that answers to a mostly different set of commercial and artistic purposes and principles. As a setting in its own right, it's a flesh golem rather than an as-if-real organic world, and I'm not much interested in it. But people who like the new setting more than I do should still be able to see the great loss that's occurred. If you're interested in richly creative, highly detailed fantasy settings, I recommend you look into the original Realms: it'll either be to your taste or it won't. If you don't feel like doing that, all this will make no difference to your enjoyment of a campaign with the new setting.
#4 strange_creatures Jan 09, 2009 9:40:08	Thanks for the quick replies. :D My experience in the FR is such: Baulders Gate 1&2 including expansions,Neverwinter nights (Which i know has been Obliterated.) and the first 4 Drizzt books. So thats the scope at the changes i'm seeing.
#5 lord_karsus Jan 09, 2009 11:11:47	-This belongs in the Forgotten Realms: General Discussion section. It'll be moved.
#6 markustay63 Jan 09, 2009 15:53:54	"huge amount of towns"? It's rather obvious from the outset you would not understand our point of view... at all.
#7 Diffan Jan 23, 2009 9:11:44	It's rather obvious from the outset you would not understand our point of view... at all. Empathy. I used to feel that people who hated FR4e should just get over it and if they can't then move on. But i've come to have some real empathy for them. I know what it's like to have something you love dearly and see it basically shred before your eyes. Though I'm not taking about D&D, I used to be a huge fan of football (NFL) and a long-time fan of the Seahawks. When I watch the (IMHO) atrocity that was Super Bowl XL, I could not belive my eyes. Something I've waited for for 22 years was (again IMHO) stolen and there was nothing I could do about it. Needless to say I was consumed with hate-filled rage at the Steelers, the refs, the moronic fans waving the terrible towels in the streets (i do live in Pittsburgh) and depressed to boot. In time I'd come to the realization that I had two choices. The first was to accept what had happend (they weren't re-doing the game), and more importantly to move beyond that to the next season. To wipe the memory away and soldier on as they say. The second was to call it quits. I took the latter. I don't have regrets and it's given me more time to do things that are, now, more important. Yet the feeling remains when I think about football and now I only root for injuries (yea I know, I'm an a**hole). But to wrap up this rant, for me FR4e wasn't something overly important to be extreamly mad about and the changes are to my liking. For those who are distraught and greatly up set about the changes, I feel for you. And maybe letting go of FR would help your disposition, or not going on with the current stuff. It helped me. Suffice to say, I've been there and with all honesty, good gaming. PS. For any Steeler fans out there, no hard feelings. EDIT: Sorry for de-railing this thread. The "atrocities" have been stated above but if FR was too Lore-heavy for you then 4e is just the right thing. Do keep in mind though earlier FR source books of 3e still have uses in (lore wise) and can be a great boon to your new campaign. Any specific region your interested in?
#8 kerym_ammath Jan 23, 2009 14:10:19	PS. For any Steeler fans out there, no hard feelings. Oh don't worry the Steeler Nation will find you, force you to wear Steeler gear, and drink mass quantities of Iron City (this last bit certainly rates up there with water boarding). :D One of my best friends is a Seahawks fan, so I certainly understand your pain, and won't open that can of worms, just remember every story has multiple sides to it.
#9 aardwolf Jan 24, 2009 3:49:54	The world has changed alot, I wont say for the better or worse, because I honestly love the Forgotten Realms in all their incarnations. Alot of the things I personally loved about the realms changed and some of the things I didnt like changed. They added some thins I really like, and there are some things I am not too fired up about. The geographic changes are hurtful, but it is a good hurt to sometimes feel loss at things...it gives a fresh perspective. I am extremly eager to get my grubby meathooks on some new FR material and see what happens. I have the campaign guide and am anxiously waiting for the local exchange to get the players guide in :D
#10 rauric Jan 24, 2009 18:09:42	This thread may just be asking for trouble. ABORTABORT** Just kidding. I am not bothered by much of the new FR but here are some examples of the changes. There were two islands Lantan and Nimbral. Lantan was wiped out by a tsunami and Nimbral just vanished, but it was an island filled with illusionists so who knows if it is gone. There was a nation of mages called Halruua that took a big hit from the Plague and they are all mercs now and the nation is in ruins. Evermeet the island of elves disappeared but I think it is in the Feywild (Fairie).
#11 Aegeri Jan 24, 2009 18:37:12	I like most of the core changes to the setting myself and find they've just facilitated the way I like to run my games. Mostly because they leave a large amount of detail up to me to fill in and I rather like that. The primary problem you may have with the new setting isn't really anything to do with changes but how much work you want to put into it yourself. You have to write lots of your own new lore, NPCs and similar in 4th edition, because many of the most well known NPCs are dead, the 4E book is generally lore lite compared to 3E books, dragon is really failing to add more material to the realms (IMO) and there will only be two primary sourcebooks (again, compared to the 3E realms which had many). Again, this is something I don't mind but is a huge problem for other people: especially people who don't want or can't dedicate the time to doing that. If you can get beyond this I think the setting is excellent. I can think of over 20+ different campaigns I would like to run now I've read the book and have collated a lot of material, notes and thoughts on places as I've gone. This is better than any Campaign Setting I've ever owned before short of Planescape (where you can honestly do anything to be frank). Again though, a lot of work has to be put in on my end to make a campaign work because of the very bare bones approach that 4E takes with regard to lore and similar. My only real issue with the current setting is they should have gone further with some of the Deity deaths. Whacking Shar or having parts of Netheril (which is on floating cities/islands) crash into the ground and set them back a few pegs would have been good. At the moment Shar reminds me of some DMPC and it's not a good reminder. I don't like some of the random destruction, like blowing up Neverwinter and destroying Lantans Rest, but at the same time it doesn't actually matter because there is so much other stuff it doesn't affect anything I want to do. Lantans Rest would have been nice to have an explanation for Warforged characters if someone ever begged and offered their kitten to me to play one (or something similarly extreme). I don't like the world map either, which is a bit muddy and I prefer the 3E style of World Map. Also, I thought the FRPG was only ok. If it wasn't for the Swordmage Class, new feats and mechanical crunch I wouldn't have been terribly happy with it (also owning the FRCG). These are minor gripes though in what I view as a more interesting setting with a lot more flexibility on the part of the DM (No metaplot, many former high level NPCs dead, splintering of several previously stable regions and less set in stone lore/NPCs in the actual book itself). My three campaigns are going very well, everyone is having fun and for the first time in years I can't wait to finish my campaigns so I can start three entirely new ones. I really want to run a "monster" campaign in The Beastlands or perhaps Najara - I need a Yuan-ti fix to get it out of my system.
#12 rauric Jan 24, 2009 19:35:31	I too am not 100% thrilled with the Shar love affair. I wish to see her ousted from most of Netheril but Shade. I also want to see a few more floating cities pop up under other Princes rule so they can stick it to their brother and put him and his god in their place. Maybe Mask can do something about that ;) .