After the death of selvetarm, and even after the death of the drow death goddess(odd) I was a bit perturbed at what was happening to the pantheon.
Then the masked lady came into being, a concept I really liked.
Am I the only one? Anyone even intend on using her in their campaigns?
Was I the only one that really liked the idea of the Masked Lady?
After the death of selvetarm, and even after the death of the drow death goddess(odd) I was a bit perturbed at what was happening to the pantheon.
Then the masked lady came into being, a concept I really liked.
Am I the only one? Anyone even intend on using her in their campaigns?
No, you aren't "the only one", going by some posts that I've read.
I didn't like the concept, though.
-I liked it. The concept of The Masked Lady makes more sense that an Eilistraee, whose church is primarily composed and accepting of females, and of a Vhaeraun, whose church is primarily composed and accepting of males. Especially when the goal of both churches and deities is to "free" others from the influence of Lolth. Being sexist, to a degree, isn't helping their own cause.
Indeed one of the many things I disliked about Eilistraee's fate. If you want to convince the males you are better than Lolth, it would be a good idea not to ban them from your clergy.
Indeed one of the many things I disliked about Eilistraee's fate. If you want to convince the males you are better than Lolth, it would be a good idea not to ban them from your clergy.
-That's how I've always felt.
I think Ryld Argith really drove that point home. He tried to follow Halisstra in her new life, but it was impossible considering they excluded him from most of it. I liked Ryld . . .
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Ya my 2 favorite characters from the War of the Spider Queen series, Ryld and Phaeraun both died...
-But, that's besides the point. In Elves of Faerûn, I allude to the Masked Lady a few times, but that's it.
I tried to post this yesterday, but the forums were having problems (as in, they weren't there at all). So I saved it to notepad and am posting it now... Any reference to "today" is, in fact, a reference to "yesterday"! :D
-I liked it. The concept of The Masked Lady makes more sense that an Eilistraee, whose church is primarily composed and accepting of females, and of a Vhaeraun, whose church is primarily composed and accepting of males. Especially when the goal of both churches and deities is to "free" others from the influence of Lolth. Being sexist, to a degree, isn't helping their own cause.
I didn't like it because it did a grave disservice to both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
Really what they should have done was had Eilistraee's church open to both genders from the moment she entered Realmslore. I used to defend Eilistraee's gender exclusion, but the longer I thought about it my opinion began to change - and suddenly coalesced today, right now, in fact... It has me wondering what took me so long... Anyway, if Eilistraee was truly the representative for redemption for the entire Drow people, she needed to be open to having both male and female clergy - to show that she truly was different to Lolth. Also, there should have been more of an emphasis on the GOODNESS part of Eilistraee. I hate these whishwashy "I'm good but evil still has a hold on me" (bitter, ruthless, and more disappointingly, spiteful) priestesses we see in some novels and short stories involving Eilistraeean drow... Eilistraee seems melancholy to me, but not bitter, and not spiteful. She's kind and compassionate not ruthless, and teaches her followers to be kind and compassionate to everyone. What is wrong with showing that? Is evil really so cool these days that showing good traits is showing weakness? *sigh*
Vhaeraun, on the other hand, I think should have had a strict gender restriction in his clergy to male only. Why? Because he's not trying to be "better" than Lolth. Vhaeraun is a male backlash against Lolth's matriarchy, without looking for redemption or trying to be good at heart.
I never had any huge objection to the notion of a matriarchal clergy for Eilistraee, ultimately. What bothered me was that there was no mention of any male (non-priest) followers, or the roles they took. At least, I don't recall seeing any direct mention of them prior to the inclusion of the ex-Vhaeraunites. At best, they were mentioned only in passing or by indirect reference in any of the novels/etc that come to mind. The reactions of the priestesses in the Lady Penitent novel to the ex-Vhaeraunites is also more on the lines of women having to now deal with males, period, rather than just as priests/equals. I got the impression more that "there haven't been any males here before" rather than "males are now allowed to be priests/on equal terms". Perhaps that was just me, though.
I didn't like it because it did a grave disservice to both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
-I disagree, as stated, and think this did a great service to both, for reasons noted above.
Really what they should have done was had Eilistraee's church open to both genders from the moment she entered Realmslore. I used to defend Eilistraee's gender exclusion, but the longer I thought about it my opinion began to change - and suddenly coalesced today, right now, in fact... It has me wondering what took me so long...
-Well, I'm glad you finally saw the light.
Vhaeraun, on the other hand, I think should have had a strict gender restriction in his clergy to male only. Why? Because he's not trying to be "better" than Lolth. Vhaeraun is a male backlash against Lolth's matriarchy, without looking for redemption or trying to be good at heart.
-For the most part, the gender restriction was in place. The only female clergy members he had- the Traitor Priestess'- he was more or less using. And, they understood that.
Heya,
I tried to post this yesterday, but the forums were having problems (as in, they weren't there at all). So I saved it to notepad and am posting it now... Any reference to "today" is, in fact, a reference to "yesterday"! :D
I didn't like it because it did a grave disservice to both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
Really what they should have done was had Eilistraee's church open to both genders from the moment she entered Realmslore. I used to defend Eilistraee's gender exclusion, but the longer I thought about it my opinion began to change - and suddenly coalesced today, right now, in fact... It has me wondering what took me so long... Anyway, if Eilistraee was truly the representative for redemption for the entire Drow people, she needed to be open to having both male and female clergy - to show that she truly was different to Lolth. Also, there should have been more of an emphasis on the GOODNESS part of Eilistraee. I hate these whishwashy "I'm good but evil still has a hold on me" (bitter, ruthless, and more disappointingly, spiteful) priestesses we see in some novels and short stories involving Eilistraeean drow... Eilistraee seems melancholy to me, but not bitter, and not spiteful. She's kind and compassionate not ruthless, and teaches her followers to be kind and compassionate to everyone. What is wrong with showing that? Is evil really so cool these days that showing good traits is showing weakness? *sigh*
Vhaeraun, on the other hand, I think should have had a strict gender restriction in his clergy to male only. Why? Because he's not trying to be "better" than Lolth. Vhaeraun is a male backlash against Lolth's matriarchy, without looking for redemption or trying to be good at heart.
I concur with your assessment.
In fact that is the way my campaign operates.In a matriarchal society where the only way to promote oneself is to kill those ahead of you or manipulate those around you, Vhearaun filled the niche for the males who could never advance beyond their gender. Meanwhile, Ellistraee crated the option of matriarchal redemption. A chance for the true rulers of the society and culprits in suppressing the males to rise up and redeem for their past sins.
The merger there in created a single entity of rebellion. The hope of the Dancing Maiden with the subtle patience and eyes-on-the-prize attitude of the Masked Lord. The entity of the Masked Lord/Lady embodied the only (sane) option for non-lolth following Dark Elves (I say sane because who in their right mind worships Ooze?). The knocking off of the other two deities of the Dark Seldarine were necessary steps in showing the true battle of the Drow - To exist in the Underdark forever or to rise above and come to the surface. Kiaransalee (butchered that without my books) and Selvatarm were unnecessary (And even The Ancient One could be considered unnecessary, but I'll let you tell him that.)
I felt that the merger of the two deities "set up" the ending to the LP trilogy. That is, the appearance of their father to show down Lolth. The two children of Corellon were, in effect, two sides of the same coin. The rebellion within, Vhearaun, and the rebellion against, Ellistraee.
In a matriarchal society where the only way to promote oneself is to kill those ahead of you or manipulate those around you, Vhearaun filled the niche for the males who could never advance beyond their gender. Meanwhile, Ellistraee crated the option of matriarchal redemption. A chance for the true rulers of the society and culprits in suppressing the males to rise up and redeem for their past sins.
The merger there in created a single entity of rebellion. The hope of the Dancing Maiden with the subtle patience and eyes-on-the-prize attitude of the Masked Lord. The entity of the Masked Lord/Lady embodied the only (sane) option for non-lolth following Dark Elves (I say sane because who in their right mind worships Ooze?). The knocking off of the other two deities of the Dark Seldarine were necessary steps in showing the true battle of the Drow - To exist in the Underdark forever or to rise above and come to the surface. Kiaransalee (butchered that without my books) and Selvatarm were unnecessary (And even The Ancient One could be considered unnecessary, but I'll let you tell him that.)
I like the "unnecessary" bit! As if deities are there out of necessity to the game ...
Anyway, a few common misconceptions about Lolthite priestess' advancement and the good that would come to the drow under Vhaeraun's guidance. First, priestesses can very well advance without killing their superiors, they just don't do so very often. Vhaeraunians are simply Lolthites with a gender-wise vice versa look upon society. The dogma may promote an equal share of power between males and females, but de facto that argument does not hold whatsoever, neither in lore or novel. IMHO, he was introduced as a tool for male gamers wanting to play cool characters in a female dominated society, causing trouble from within. Male gamers, who could not imagine playing (at the time a must) female priestesses fighting of the evil of the Spider Queen. The utter (in-setting) focus of the Vhaeraunians to bring down Lolthite society was as much as boring as the utter focus of the Eilistraeens to "redeem" the drow. It would have done the drow (in-setting) a world of good if deities like Kiaransalee were / had been about, deities with their own agenda and targets. As it is, we are back to the simplicity of a raw Greyhawk setting with Lolth being essentially the only drow deity and those not wanting her will go on and worship even "stranger" deities such as Ghaunadaur or a fiend-lord. Maybe, in years to come, we will see another set of drow deities emerge.
The merger there in created a single entity of rebellion. The hope of the Dancing Maiden with the subtle patience and eyes-on-the-prize attitude of the Masked Lord.
-Indeed. This is why I say that this was a positive thing: It unified, it strengthened both churches. They compliment each other.
...Kiaransalee (butchered that without my books)...
-Got it right, actually. ;)
Hmmm...the Masked Lady. I liked her better than Eilistraee, but NOT better than Vhaeraun.
I wish Ms. Smeden would have shed a little more light on Vhaeraun's ridiculous plan to enter Eilistraee's realm and slay her. Surely becoming the Masked Lady was a part of his plan the entire time so he could corrupt her internally. Surely!
Any who, I thought the trilogy was good. If we were still in 3rd edition I'm sure there'd be no doubt left that Lolth is now a greater goddess.
I would have liked to see her new 3rd edition stats, as well as the Masked Lady's, Halisstra's, the Crescent Blade, Q'arlynd's, and that drow ninja assassin.
Oh well, I'm just waiting until the 4th ed. FR campaign setting comes out to see what they've done with the drow. Will dark elves be elves, eladrin, or something else? Are drow "allowed" to be good now or do they have to be evil? Is Drizzt now a dark elf or is he still a drow (not sure if in the intro to the Orc King that peaked 100 years in the future mentioned Drizzt being a dark elf or drow)? Will Lolth be this goddess of shadow and darkness like she is in mainstream 4th D&D now? I hope not.
I wish Ms. Smeden would have shed a little more light on Vhaeraun's ridiculous plan to enter Eilistraee's realm and slay her. Surely becoming the Masked Lady was a part of his plan the entire time. Surely!
-He is a scheming, conniving deity.
I tend to agree, Storm - the gender exclusion for Eilistraee always seemed out of place to me. I usually attributed it more to a societal thing, rather than a specific decree of Eilistraee - that is to say, it wasn't that Eilistraee wouldn't accept male worshippers as clerics, but rather that orthodox/conservative female priestesses couldn't bring themselves to accept the notion, and thus never trained any.
That's sort of what Ed said was the case. However, if a male wanted to a cleric of Eilistraee (according to Ed), he would have to spend a significant amount of time in the form of a female.
Maybe, in years to come, we will see another set of drow deities emerge.
If that happened (which it might), I'd probably feel rather annoyed, after all the hype from WotC about too many deities being "burdensome" for people who use the setting.
Drizzt, god of self-loathing
Thank you, I had enough of males turned into female clerics in El: A making of a mage for a lifetime.
I'm just reporting what is, whether the news is favorable or not.;)
Now that I think about it there are some complications on a male training with the priestesses of Eilistraee. I mean all of their rituals involve dancing around in the nude. He'd get distracted.
Maybe, although for what it's worth a male cleric was supposed to be in female form as well during such rituals (again, according to Ed).
-Indeed. This is why I say that this was a positive thing: It unified, it strengthened both churches. They compliment each other.
It only weakened the already badly portrayed church of Eilistraee, and it turned her concept of redemption from CG to CN with strong Evil tendencies.
I hated it.
I think somewhere in the internet there must be erotic fantasy stories written by Mr Greenwood . . .
It only weakened the already badly portrayed church of Eilistraee...
-By making it "complete" in such that all Drow would be attracted to it? That's an awfully interesting notion of strengthening and weakening you have there.
...and it turned her concept of redemption from CG to CN with strong Evil tendencies.
-The first half, I accept, as that's what would happen when a CG Eilistraee and a CE Vhaeraun combine, but the bolded part is pure conjecture on your part with absolutely nothing in the plot to substantiate it.
Let's face it you're not going to survive in a highly evil society like the Drow as a good aligned individual. Especially as a female of any significant power. You're carted off to the Temple of Lolth to perform regular sacrifices of your brothers, sisters, slaves and other such individuals almost as soon as you can walk and talk.
Drow Society is all about killing or being killed. Sorry, you just are not going to see Paladins running around there, and no Drow who grows up in that environment is going to come out without taking some of those cultural beliefs with them.
I liked the concept of Drow Redemption, but I always thought Eilistraee did a poor job of it due to her alignment, because it was an unrealistic aspiration for most Drow.
Drow Society is all about killing or being killed. Sorry, you just are not going to see Paladins running around there, and no Drow who grows up in that environment is going to come out without taking some of those cultural beliefs with them.
-This isn't exactly the point of contention I have with Eilistraee.
-The main goal of her faith is to bring the Drow away from the corruption of Lolth. But, in the old format of her church structure, males (who are more likely to want to leave Lolthite society, due to obvious societal implications), the first thing males see in the church of Eilistraee are dominating* females. Where's the impetus to stay? Sure, you're no longer being beaten and stuff, but you're still a male, and thus, a "second class citizen".
-With the Masked Lady, in which males and females are seen in the same light, there is much more of a reason for those seeking to flee from Lolth to embrace the deity.
*In terms of force of influence and such
Masked?
Rebellion?
This is all just Zinzerena getting a bit of revenge on ol' spider-butt.
The Chaos Harlequin
CN?
Masked?
Rebellion?
This is all just Zinzerena getting a bit of revenge on ol' spider-butt.
The Chaos Harlequin
-In the Forgotten Realms, she got "eaten", but, ah...
That's true as well but a deity has to be something people can relate to culturally. What you outlined has its positives and negatives. While males might be more drawn to the church, all the females who have been ingrained with the "Female > Male" dogma their entire lives are less likely to find it appealing. Likewise, embittered males who want to "put the females in their place" after years of domination likewise would not find it welcoming.
My main contention was Eilistraee's alignment. There really isn't a good way for a CG Drow to blend into Drow Society and remain alive for any period of time. There will come a point when they'll have to do an evil act just to survive, even if they dislike doing the act, which would in turn impact their alignment.
That's why I like what I've heard about the portrayals of the faithful of Eilistraee. It makes sense. However, I think if Eilistraee were CN (as the Masked Lady was) then she could appeal to the broadest range of Drow. Neither good nor evil, she could accept both, encourage rebellion against Lolth, encourage equality between the sexes (even if at times things become a tad heated as a result), and encourage overall redemption of the race. Overall the Masked Lady would have been more focused on intrigue and what not against Lolth - a slow but sure undermining of her power and authority.
It's just a shame to see the new Eilistraee go so soon. There was a lot of potential there, more so than the original. I always felt Vhaeraun overlapped too much with Mask from the Faerunian Pantheon to be honest, which is why I never felt much toward him. I would have preferred Eilistraee to simply have absorbed Mask as well - there need only be one Masked deity running around.
Let's face it you're not going to survive in a highly evil society like the Drow as a good aligned individual.
Some drow have managed to do exactly that.
Drow Society is all about killing or being killed. Sorry, you just are not going to see Paladins running around there, and no Drow who grows up in that environment is going to come out without taking some of those cultural beliefs with them.
Well, Drizzt didn't seem too burdened by the morality (or lack thereof) of his former culture, although I would agree that's pretty dumb.
That's true as well but a deity has to be something people can relate to culturally. What you outlined has its positives and negatives. While males might be more drawn to the church, all the females who have been ingrained with the "Female > Male" dogma their entire lives are less likely to find it appealing. Likewise, embittered males who want to "put the females in their place" after years of domination likewise would not find it welcoming.
-Right. And, this is why, in it's "old" format, the church of Eilistraee would never have been able to meet it's ultimate goal of turning all Drow from the strangle-hold of Lolth and "redeeming" the race.
My main contention was Eilistraee's alignment. There really isn't a good way for a CG Drow to blend into Drow Society and remain alive for any period of time. There will come a point when they'll have to do an evil act just to survive, even if they dislike doing the act, which would in turn impact their alignment.
-The reason why I find your argument a minor one is because Eilistraeean Drow kept themselves separate from mainstream Drow society. Purposefully so.
It's just a shame to see the new Eilistraee go so soon. There was a lot of potential there, more so than the original.
-Agreed. Original content, and content related to the merging of the two different churches, as well.
Btw if you consider Ascendancy of the Last, the merging of the churches was working decently. There were traitorous vhaerunites and there were untrusting eilistraeeans as expected but several people from both sides had learned to cooperate.
The character who sacrificed himself to the maze embodied this as the priest who had come only after the merger. He had the subtly and skills of a nightmask with the vision and dreams of a blade-dancer.
Btw if you consider Ascendancy of the Last, the merging of the churches was working decently. There were traitorous vhaerunites and there were untrusting eilistraeeans as expected but several people from both sides had learned to cooperate.
-All within the span of, what? One? Two? Three years, the changes? Something like that.
-It all came and went so fast...
-By making it "complete" in such that all Drow would be attracted to it? That's an awfully interesting notion of strengthening and weakening you have there.
By watering down the Redemption message. Redemption isn't something you do in half measures. Going Neutral weakened the Goodness of Eilistraee, and made her into something less than she was.
-The first half, I accept, as that's what would happen when a CG Eilistraee and a CE Vhaeraun combine, but the bolded part is pure conjecture on your part with absolutely nothing in the plot to substantiate it.
CN is rebellion, yes, but not redemption. Eilistraee didn't just represent rebellion against from Lolth, she represented embracing the metaphorical light that is Good (given her Moon motif, I would have thought that's would be blindingly obvious, excuse the pun). I very much doubt that any ex-Vhaeraunites became good overnight, and I'm fairly sure that a majority resented the merger. The way I saw Eilistraee and (both halves of) her clergy being portrayed towards the end of the second book (I haven't read the third one, and may never do so now), was definitely of CN tending towards Evil... Ends justifying the Means = Neutral at best, Evil at worst. (There was still a vast chasm between the Eilistraee worshippers and the ex-Vhaeraunites - there was no truly merged church, I'm afraid to say.)
And in the end, no matter whether you liked the Masked Lady or not, we got a weak ending with only some Drow being redeemed, and the implication that no matter whether an individual Drow in the future is Good at heart, they're still doomed.
-In the Forgotten Realms, she got "eaten", but, ah...
Nay, in the Core Rule world's of Drow of the Underdark she got eaten! In the Forgotten Realms, she was denied entry (or was slain) by Lolth - as of Demihuman Deities - and the latter assumed her role. So in essence, Zinzerena worshippers are still out and about (though they may unwittingly worship Lolth). Now that we have pointed at that, a WotC designer may grab the red pen and ...
By watering down the Redemption message.
-Which is more reaching for straws. In fact, the whole "redemption" message was strengthened when Eilistraee and Vhaeraun merged into the Masked Lady, because the inherent prejudices within both churches were removed.
Redemption isn't something you do in half measures. Going Neutral weakened the Goodness of Eilistraee, and made her into something less than she was.
-Again, more reaching for straws that doesn't exactly work. In "going neutral", Eilistraee is more able to attract and free those Drow in the clutches of Lolth- which has always been her mission in divinity- via the points raised by both Meldred and myself.
CN is rebellion, yes, but not redemption. Eilistraee didn't just represent rebellion against from Lolth, she represented embracing the metaphorical light that is Good (given her Moon motif, I would have thought that's would be blindingly obvious, excuse the pun).
-And, by embracing the metaphorical light, one escapes the evil of Lolth. Moonlight, like other light, comes in different shades of brightness, but is still light.
I very much doubt that any ex-Vhaeraunites became good overnight, and I'm fairly sure that a majority resented the merger.
-The books show very much a different story.
The way I saw Eilistraee and (both halves of) her clergy being portrayed towards the end of the second book (I haven't read the third one, and may never do so now), was definitely of CN tending towards Evil... Ends justifying the Means = Neutral at best, Evil at worst. (There was still a vast chasm between the Eilistraee worshippers and the ex-Vhaeraunites - there was no truly merged church, I'm afraid to say.)
-I'd recommend you read the book, then, because what you are saying is very far from what actually is going on.
And in the end, no matter whether you liked the Masked Lady or not, we got a weak ending with only some Drow being redeemed, and the implication that no matter whether an individual Drow in the future is Good at heart, they're still doomed.
-I agree that the ending was weak. Quite weak. As I've stated before, however, the entire concept of "redeemed" and/or "corrupted" soul is utter garbage. A soul/spirit goes to the domain of his/her/its patron. If a Drow ("Unredeemed")worships Eilistraee, his/her soul goes to Arvandor upon death. If a Dark Elf ("Redeemed") worships Lolth, his/her soul goes to the Demonweb Pits. That's all there is to it.
In the Forgotten Realms, she was denied entry (or was slain) by Lolth - as of Demihuman Deities - and the latter assumed her role.
-See the emphasis, thus my statement.
-Which is more reaching for straws. In fact, the whole "redemption" message was strengthened when Eilistraee and Vhaeraun merged into the Masked Lady, because the inherent prejudices within both churches were removed.
I'm not gonna argue with the rest of your post but this here got my attention hehe.
What does redemption have to do with prejudice? The message is the same regardless of whether the clergy transmit the message effectively or not.
It's like with RL religion, there is the message of salvation that is central to all Christianity. However, the actions of some priests and pastors far too often drown that message out in the many scandals throughout the history of the Church. Do the scandals change God? No, they do mar his reputation, making it harder for people to see past the faults of His representative...
Now granted, this is a fantasy setting and mortal and god/goddess relations are more dynamic.
Eilistraee in my campaigns accepts both female and male clerics because if you read carefully her entry in Faiths and Pantheons, there is nothing to restrict her clerics to female only. It may be implied, but there is no statement restricting access. While it may not be normal, it is possible. Besides, I don't see why males HAVE to be clerics in order to be a participant in the ceremonies. The novels, though well written, IMO at least, depict Eilistraee and her clergy as the opposite side of the same coin to Lolth. While this may be true of new converts who are thoroughly conditioned that males are the inferior sex, it takes time to break centuries of teachings.
What does redemption have to do with prejudice? The message is the same regardless of whether the clergy transmit the message effectively or not.
-You answered your own question right there!
-In the Realms, because deities are so "interactive", a deity is not going to allow his/her church to promote ideas/actions that the deity itself does not approve of. The Heretic of the Faith feat opens some cans of worms with this, but let's just ignore that for now.
-Eilistraee is knowingly excluding males from her clergy. The lay worshipers are treated like second-class citizens. "Oh, they're males, so they can't do X, Y, and Z". Why would a male gravitate to this? The church of Vhaeraun empowers males! In theory, if given the choice once freed from Lolth, it is likely that every male would choose Vhaeraun, while every female would choose Eilistraee. This is creating a large fraction in the race, because of these policies. How is this the best way to bring the entire Drow race out of the clutches of Lolth, "into the light"?
Eilistraee in my campaigns accepts both female and male clerics because if you read carefully her entry in Faiths and Pantheons, there is nothing to restrict her clerics to female only.
-To be grammatically correct, in English, like the romance languages, when there is one a single male in a group, the masculine form of the word must be used, to be correct. If the group is composed only of feminine things, then the feminine form can be used. The entry on Eilistraee's church uses only the female pronoun: Maids, Dark Maidens, Ladies, etc. That's some pretty "damning" circumstantial evidence.
Besides, I don't see why males HAVE to be clerics in order to be a participant in the ceremonies. The novels, though well written, IMO at least, depict Eilistraee and her clergy as the opposite side of the same coin to Lolth. While this may be true of new converts who are thoroughly conditioned that males are the inferior sex, it takes time to break centuries of teachings.
-The point I was making with this was: What is the "initiative" a male has for joining the church of Eilistraee as a lay worshiper? The beatings and arbitrary killings have stopped, sure, but you're still though of as a second-class citizen. Wasn't the historic Civil Rights movement spurred on because Blacks felt they were second-class citizens?
-Eilistraee is knowingly excluding males from her clergy.
According to Ed, she didn't actually exclude them. It's just that male clerics had to spend time as females.;)
According to Ed, she didn't actually exclude them. It's just that male clerics had to spend time as females.;)
-It's all the same. One sex is quite clearly being favored over the other, which would create, in turn, no incentives for the "discriminated" sex to participate.
Been a while since I read the book, but I seem to recall it not being by choice. God knows if I had a choice I'd prefer to keep my man parts where they are. Did he even get his original man parts back when he got turned back into a man? ;)
The Simbul insisted on it. ;)
As opposed to someone else's man parts back? :P
I hate secondhand stuff.
Plus several Vhaerunites thought it was a ploy by their god.
Me included :raincloud
Tbh we never found out what it was. I am still not convinced that Vhaerun actually died, but rather I think he decided to join forces with his sister against their mother. He could have entrusted Eilistraee his divine mantle with certain precepts which we will never find out.
-I agree wholeheartedly with this.
After all the novels never actually confirmed it to be otherwise, and I much prefer to disregard as canonic that a deity as intelligent as Vhaerun would mount an attack against another deity of similar power within her home turf with a scheme that obviously was not going well (and he would know the scheme was going badly since one of the clerics involved died beforehand). It is a ludicrous notion that I deny entertaining. Plus Lolth drops several taunting hints, like your brother taught you well and so. Indeed I can even imagine Vhaerun and Eilistraee making certain concessions and sharing a church (which would be even more interesting than the Masked Lady concept).
It's entirely possible that the essences of both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are in "keeping" by Corellon. The author made a really pointed effort to make readers aware of his moon-like necklace at the end of the book, which I see as the perfect "out" for one of them if not both.
It's also quite possible that -either- Eilistraee or Vhaeraun were not killed but one surrendered to the other. What better mask for Vhaeraun to wear than the body of his sister, keeping her alive so that he has direct access through her to Qilue and her followers? Or perhaps Eilistraee won the combat and didn't want to kill him but claimed his portfolio temporarily (turning him into the mask she wore). All sorts of things could've happened, as it was all "off page".
Indeed one of the many things I disliked about Eilistraee's fate. If you want to convince the males you are better than Lolth, it would be a good idea not to ban them from your clergy.
Aye.
Or as I said Vhaerun gave his divine mantle and now wonders Arvandor as a very powerful yet mortal elf. Daddy might even take him back.
-That seems a little out-of-character for him. Why would he do that?
You know, respect for his elders and all.-That's as unlikely as...Leira not lying about he status/existence of Denier's Metatext!
Leira still exists. She's those voices and hallucinations in Cyric's head. How better to carry out the duties of her portfolio? :D
-That said, again, I come into the game long after he ascended, so I don't have the grudge that most people seem to have against Cyric. My feelings towards him did fluctuate while reading the Avatar series: like, dislike, like, pity, dislike, pity...
Leira is a cool power. Cyric is a lame power. In fact Cyric is easily the most lame power in the realms ever. He makes Shiallia look cool.
Haha! That's... true! :D
Something that's been going on for millennium doesn't change overnight, which is what you're saying right there. The prejudices didn't just go away because Vhaeraun was subsumed by Eilistraee... There were Drow males who thought it was all a trick of Vhaeraun's, there were Drow males who didn't want to change their ways, there were Drow females who couldn't get over their prejudices against Drow males, there were Drow females who couldn't get past their hatred of Vhaeraunites, there were probably Drow males and females who turned away from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as a result. What we got to see in the novel was focused on a number of Drow who were closer to the centre of all the drama.
It isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. During the novels, the "merged" churches of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were uneasy allies against Lolth, and had Eilistraee the Masked Lady survived, we would have seen far more friction in the Church, and quite possibly a number of fallings out and a number of heretical cults springing up. This imminent fracturing is weakness, not strength. It's terribly unrealistic to say that everything was smelling of roses, because it wasn't... The only reason we didn't get to see these things happen at all were because of the short duration the Masked Lady lasted after the merger.
-Which is more reaching for straws. In fact, the whole "redemption" message was strengthened when Eilistraee and Vhaeraun merged into the Masked Lady, because the inherent prejudices within both churches were removed.
-Again, more reaching for straws that doesn't exactly work. In "going neutral", Eilistraee is more able to attract and free those Drow in the clutches of Lolth- which has always been her mission in divinity- via the points raised by both Meldred and myself.
-And, by embracing the metaphorical light, one escapes the evil of Lolth. Moonlight, like other light, comes in different shades of brightness, but is still light.
I think we're not going to see eye to eye because to me, Redemption is an inherently Good concept. Loosing the Good aspect of herself means that Eilistraee has become incapable of providing redemption. Had the Masked Lady been CG, then you'd have a point. You can't be redeemed while still embracing evil, so those who embrace Eilistraee must leave evil behind them... Sure, neutral works as a transitory stage in the whole process of redemption, but those trying to embrace Eilistraee while still embracing Evil are kind of missing the point.
Have I stated my position clearly enough so you won't say I'm clutching at straws any more? The whole Redemption angle would have been better served if Eilistraee had accepted male clergy right from the moment she entered Realmslore... This latter addition was unrealistic and would never have worked long term.
-I agree that the ending was weak. Quite weak. As I've stated before, however, the entire concept of "redeemed" and/or "corrupted" soul is utter garbage. A soul/spirit goes to the domain of his/her/its patron. If a Drow ("Unredeemed")worships Eilistraee, his/her soul goes to Arvandor upon death. If a Dark Elf ("Redeemed") worships Lolth, his/her soul goes to the Demonweb Pits. That's all there is to it.
Exactly. Take my above arguments as leaving aside this very pertinent point. Though I still think redemption is about leaving Evil behind to become Good.
It's entirely possible that the essences of both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are in "keeping" by Corellon. The author made a really pointed effort to make readers aware of his moon-like necklace at the end of the book, which I see as the perfect "out" for one of them if not both.
Corellon's symbol has always been a crescent moon.
Heya,
Corellon's symbol has always been a crescent moon.
Right, but it was -very- pointedly brought to the reader's awareness by the author. I thought that was kind of cool, actually, as I like Lisa Smedman generally and it felt like a "hint" that many interpretations were possible for what happened to Eilistraee.
It isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. During the novels, the "merged" churches of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were uneasy allies against Lolth, and had Eilistraee the Masked Lady survived, we would have seen far more friction in the Church, and quite possibly a number of fallings out and a number of heretical cults springing up. This imminent fracturing is weakness, not strength. It's terribly unrealistic to say that everything was smelling of roses, because it wasn't... The only reason we didn't get to see these things happen at all were because of the short duration the Masked Lady lasted after the merger.
-Which, while realistic, is all hypothetical. Again, given the information in the relevant Lady Penitent books, everything was smelling of roses, save a small group of Vhaeraunites who refused to accept the Masked Lady as Eilistraee, and instead, saw her as Vhaeraun. By the end of the third novel, this rogue element had been dealt with and eliminated.
Loosing the Good aspect of herself means that Eilistraee has become incapable of providing redemption.
-And thus, we will not agree.
Have I stated my position clearly enough so you won't say I'm clutching at straws any more?
-No. I like telling you that you are reaching for straws. ;)
The whole Redemption angle would have been better served if Eilistraee had accepted male clergy right from the moment she entered Realmslore...
-Agreed.
Right, but it was -very- pointedly brought to the reader's awareness by the author. I thought that was kind of cool, actually, as I like Lisa Smedman generally and it felt like a "hint" that many interpretations were possible for what happened to Eilistraee.
I also seem to remember reading somewhere a quote from the novel where they make a fuss over the New Moon over Eilistraee's domain...
As we all know, just because the moon is dark, doesn't mean the moon has ceased to exist. Perhaps the moon will grow bright again in the sky. A hint towards Eilistraee's return at some point in the future, perhaps? Regardless, this novel series won't effect my Realms - I have other plans for Eilistraee.
Heya,
I also seem to remember reading somewhere a quote from the novel where they make a fuss over the New Moon over Eilistraee's domain...
As we all know, just because the moon is dark, doesn't mean the moon has ceased to exist. Perhaps the moon will grow bright again in the sky. A hint towards Eilistraee's return at some point in the future, perhaps? Regardless, this novel series won't effect my Realms - I have other plans for Eilistraee.
Yep, basically Eilistraee just "vanishes" while talking with Lolth. This is after Qilue is killed, and she and Lolth have a bit of discussion. It was a very interesting and unusual way for her to "die", so honestly I think while the official word is one thing - the novel really left that open to interpretation on a lot of levels (and really, open to her future return as well, if the designers wished to do so). I thought Smedman was really clever for doing it in that way.
-Which, while realistic, is all hypothetical. Again, given the information in the relevant Lady Penitent books, everything was smelling of roses, save a small group of Vhaeraunites who refused to accept the Masked Lady as Eilistraee, and instead, saw her as Vhaeraun. By the end of the third novel, this rogue element had been dealt with and eliminated.
*sigh* I don't know why I'd expect anything better.
-No. I like telling you that you are reaching for straws. ;)
Bah! *grabs a handful of straw and starts to tickle Lord Karsus with it*
*sigh* I don't know why I'd expect anything better.
-Hey, the novel said it, not me.
Bah! *grabs a handful of straw and starts to tickle Lord Karsus with it*
-Go with the flow. Go with the flow.
-Personally speaking, the fact that his character conjured up so many different emotions speaks of his..."characterization". That's a good thing. I can't say that Bane, Myrkul and/or Bhaal ever did that.
For once, I'm going to have to go against my namesake and agree with you. Unlike the big 3, Cyric embodied human evil, that is, what humans do to each other that is evil. Tyranny, hatred, lies, murder, intrigue.... he was the big show, so to say. Where as the dead 3 (including myself) were more as boogie men. Bane was the black tyrant, the man you never saw who plotted behind the scenes. Bhaal was the boogie man who would come up behind and end your life in a sadistic, and sometimes artistic, way. Ol M' was the one who you know you'd face one day and so you would pray to the gods above that you could be saved in any number of ways (No one ever wanted to come to my parties
)Cyric, on the other hand, was the evil you encountered every day. From the man down the street who hated for no reason to the tyrant who ruined the life of you and all of your loved ones. He was everything that we deal with today - racism, despotism, civil war, genocide, prejudice and so on and so forth.
Anyway, we had countless of threads back in the day on this topic, but I feel as though they are unaccessible at the moment...
Back to the topic at hand:
I think we're not going to see eye to eye because to me, Redemption is an inherently Good concept. Loosing the Good aspect of herself means that Eilistraee has become incapable of providing redemption. Had the Masked Lady been CG, then you'd have a point. You can't be redeemed while still embracing evil, so those who embrace Eilistraee must leave evil behind them... Sure, neutral works as a transitory stage in the whole process of redemption, but those trying to embrace Eilistraee while still embracing Evil are kind of missing the point.
I completely agree. Redemption IS a good concept. However, I believe that in this series it was not wholly about redemption. Sure, there were the drow who strove for redemption (such as the character who sacrificed himself to Big G') but there were also the drow who denied everything that Lolth was - A curse to the Dark Elves and a warden to the imprisonment beneath the Earth. By combining Lolth's two children, the entity known as the Masked Lady then encompassed the rebellion - both redemption and denial. Corellon will be the one who will deal with the new Dark Elves who are not wholly good. I have a feeling Sheverash and his faith are going south to E' in the coming books as I can't seem them being too happy that their "Marks" are all accepted now (afterall, the Deity himself will not smile until all Drow are dead - does that include dark elves?).
For once, I'm going to have to go against my namesake and agree with you. Unlike the big 3, Cyric embodied human evil, that is, what humans do to each other that is evil. Tyranny, hatred, lies, murder, intrigue.... he was the big show, so to say. Where as the dead 3 (including myself) were more as boogie men. Bane was the black tyrant, the man you never saw who plotted behind the scenes. Bhaal was the boogie man who would come up behind and end your life in a sadistic, and sometimes artistic, way. Ol M' was the one who you know you'd face one day and so you would pray to the gods above that you could be saved in any number of ways (No one ever wanted to come to my parties
Cyric, on the other hand, was the evil you encountered every day. From the man down the street who hated for no reason to the tyrant who ruined the life of you and all of your loved ones. He was everything that we deal with today - racism, despotism, civil war, genocide, prejudice and so on and so forth.
-So poetic. So that's what you did on the days when soul traffic was low...
-So poetic. So that's what you did on the days when soul traffic was low...
You get bored with watching Dendar try to break out, the Faithless moaning in the wall and Jergal writing in his damn book all the time. Could really get to a fella'! Thats why Me and B' went to Cynosure and .... well you know the rest.
-I hear you. Being the great magus that I am, I am often inspired by a certain lady, and write poetry that, by critics' standards, is probably very bad, but yet, I feel, is good.
Why do I think of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?"
Why do I think of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?"
-Being as that I've never read it, I don't know. Let's try to relate the answer to the Masked Lady, though.
Would the idea of Vhaerun and Eilistraee as a joint religion be plausible? That is for a homebrew and beyond canon. I can picture them joining both the realms and their churches until no drow is under the thumb of Lolth and Lolth is banished from Realmspace forever.
-Well, this is what happened with The Masked Lady. Do you mean, as in Eilistraee and Vhaeraun coexisting as separate entities?
The Masked Lady existed as such only for a few years within Realmspace and I for one would not base an adventure or campaign around it.
Would the idea of Vhaerun and Eilistraee as a joint religion be plausible? That is for a homebrew and beyond canon. I can picture them joining both the realms and their churches until no drow is under the thumb of Lolth and Lolth is banished from Realmspace forever.
You can just set it up as a heresy if you'd like. That is perfectly legal within the rules, and there is even a heresy that claims that Selune and Shar are two sides of the same deity.
IMHO it is very explicitly said that Vhaeraun was killed by Eilistraee and his body was floating about in the Astral, hacked apart and his face a screaming mask of dismay. Lolth checked that up and I guess she is not one easily fooled, being someone who ultimately outmatches Eilistraee's plan time and again - no matter of that ultimate sacrifice in the end ...
-I don't remember this part.
-I don't remember this part.
That's because Vhaeraun's death was entirely off-page, there wasn't a body or anything like that. ;)
So any number of things could've happened, really.
That's because Vhaeraun's death was entirely off-page, there wasn't a body or anything like that. ;)
-Right. Exactly. So how did Zanan come to the conclusion she came to? Like I said, I don't remember a scene like that, with his Astral corpse and all...
-Right. Exactly. So how did Zanan come to the conclusion she came to? Like I said, I don't remember a scene like that, with his Astral corpse and all...
She DID put "IMHO" first ;)
She DID put "IMHO" first ;)
Worlds of hurt can happen when using IMO and "explicitly states" in the same sentence. ;)
She DID put "IMHO" first ;)
-That would do it. Case in point, though, it's not very explicitly said. :P
Would it help if I said I distinctly recall the scene in Storm of the Dead where Lolth sees Vhaeraun's writhing body in the Astral Plane?
*gakk!*
You know... I think you're right... sorry Zanan. **facepalm**
I'll go be embarrassed in silence now for a few minutes.
Relax, it's OK.
Well, I hate it when I gloss over stuff... makes me feel like a dork. :P
:P
*bites tongue*
:P
:P... just to rub it in somewhat. A little, just a little. You know, drow and all.
I did or am in the process of writing a revision for each of the LP books and if you care to look at Storm of the Dead, page three ...
... just to rub it in somewhat. A little, just a little. You know, drow and all.
naughty drowies! :raincloud :surrender
Would it help if I said I distinctly recall the scene in Storm of the Dead where Lolth sees Vhaeraun's writhing body in the Astral Plane?
-Yes. I trust you. I do not trust Zanan. Zanan is Drow.
-But, regardless, as I said, obviously, it was not that explicit, or we wouldn't be having this confusion!
Well, I hate it when I gloss over stuff... makes me feel like a dork. :P
If it's been a while since you read the book, it only makes sense that you'd forget some details. It happens to everyone.
-Yes. I trust you.
I'm so glad.;)
-Yes. I trust you. I do not trust Zanan. Zanan is Drow.
-But, regardless, as I said, obviously, it was not that explicit, or we wouldn't be having this confusion!
Oh, it was explicit ... if only people would accept facts for what they are.
It is not dissimilar to the "concept" of Eilistraeens running about naked all day long and dance about in swords and all. If those boys would have cared to read all that there is to read about the faith in that DD entry alone, much of the phantasising on Eilistraee would never have surfaced in the first place.Oh, it was explicit...
-Obviously not, if half of us were lost! :P
Would the idea of Vhaerun and Eilistraee as a joint religion be plausible? That is for a homebrew and beyond canon. I can picture them joining both the realms and their churches until no drow is under the thumb of Lolth and Lolth is banished from Realmspace forever.
Hmm, I can picture Lolth absorbing the Masked Lady as one of her own aspects in order to gain followers amongst the surface drow. Playing on both sides and deceiving them into thinking they serve different entities for their ideals when in reality its all just a game, seems like something Lolth would do to me.:D
-Obviously not, if half of us were lost! :P
Well, half of you were simply too ignorant to accept the facts and quickly forget them! :evillaugh
Well, half of you were simply too ignorant to accept the facts and quickly forget them! :evillaugh
-While, while not necessarily true, doesn't change the fact! :P :P
-While, while not necessarily true, doesn't change the fact! :P :P
You do refer to the fact that half of the posters were lost? Yes, that is sadly true.
You do refer to the fact that half of the posters were lost? Yes, that is sadly true.
Let's be realistic. Everyone, at some point, will mis-remember something that was on a single page in one book. It's not like it has been cross-referenced in any other resource, or even discussed widely on various forums. Even at Candlekeep, I found two posters in one thread that discussed this issue. That's all, nothing more really.
Besides, it's only natural to be skeptical about statements made by drow who were apparently not fit to be redeemed by the holy lady's noble sacrifice. Naughty drow get no cookies. :P ;) :P
Let's be realistic. Everyone, at some point, will mis-remember something that was on a single page in one book. It's not like it has been cross-referenced in any other resource, or even discussed widely on various forums. Even at Candlekeep, I found two posters in one thread that discussed this issue. That's all, nothing more really.
Besides, it's only natural to be skeptical about statements made by drow who were apparently not fit to be redeemed by the holy lady's noble sacrifice. :P ;) :P
I grant you the last paragraph of your reply. There was and is nothing to redeem in me. :evillaugh ... and I can't see any reason why there should be. Next up will be the orcs, mistreated and maligned and most likely spell-created ex-humans that they are (or maybe not, but I guess you get the point).
As for the first bit ... we debated this at length (as in: LENGTH) on here when Storm of the Dead was hitting the shelves. Though I grant you that my field of interest will assure that information on my dark kin is more ready and accessible in me than people like you and Karsus with other fields of interests ... or in his case big large toads and slugs on his stony head. :evillaugh Those can indeed fog or disturb the memory somewhat.
In any case, if there is something someone wants to know about the drow, just ask me. I do not need any demon-thing or the like to twist their history to my liking ... ahem ... tell you the truth and nothing but the truth.
Lies can be the most terrible weapon out there if used in place of the truth. :evillaugh
Just doing some community service by clarifying that statement for the masses.;)
Screw the masses, let them burn for all I care... ;)
As far as I know, we're already in a living hell.