So far we've seen previews about chapters concerning the ''streamline drow'', but after all Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are rebel underdogs, and their followers are just fringes of the drow, of little weight on the whole. So I'd expect to find them mentioned in sections about drow outcasts, or something like that.
Furthermore, this map (which has been taken from the book) doesn't leave much room for uncertainty, it's clearly about a place dedicated to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Actually -judging by ''Hall of Dancers/Masked'' and ''Throne of Lord and Lady''- it looks like some kind of Home Plane for both of them, or something along these lines (and I can't see what else it could refer to). Besides, that place is in the Feywild Underdark and, having it appeared after the Spellplague, can't be for previous eras (and in the past E and V were opposed to each other, it would have been weird of them -and of their followers- to inhabit the same place).
Also, I've already written it elsewhere, but one of the authors of the book said that Eilistraee is coming back with it on a fansite forum, and even mentioned that her return will be related to her roots: Araushnee and Corellon.
Those are pretty encouraging hints to me, so lets wait and see.
But if it was a new temple, then it'd mean that the two of them are back in some fashion, since who would decide to build something like that, if the beings it'd be dedicated to couldn't even interact with their followers...
We don't have the certainty, however we've got the preview of only 2 chapters so far (and they included only a small overview of the chapters), so lets wait for others (or for the book itself to come out, if we're unlucky).
My bet is that they are Archfeys now (to be honest, I'll like them even more, if they come back as such creatures)...
factions...
still does not sound very thrilling.... yet.
Besides, the chapters that have come up till now pretty much cover Menzoberranzan (overview of the city through the eras, various lolthite crap, and factions). The places of interest are the only thing left (assuming that they haven't been covered yet, in chapter 1). The book has been said to also include overviews of some Underdark locations, so we have 1 more chapter for this (or none at all, if they decided to describe the city and the Underdark together in a single chapter), plus the appendix (mainly information for players) and -hopefully- a (seemingly brief) chapter about the drow deities, or about drow outcasts (or this kind of lore could be included in the appendix, even tho this would suck).
Assuming that what I wrote above is correct, this means that the general overview of the whole book will probably be complete in the next week, and I'm still positive that we will get our longed (well, at least for me) preview info about Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's return during the current week, or the next. Or maybe through that puzzle game they're running...
Well, next excerpt will probably come up on Thursday, so... lets wait some more.
PS: These previews are kinda pointless. They are just tables of contents and I'm wondering why they didn't just post the index of the book, instead of doing this...
We'll see in the next week, I guess.
Nothing that hints about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun yet.
That map (with the lore about it, and therefore about the two deities) has to be somewhere in the book, tho. Perhaps the info about them will be in the appendix (or maybe in the ''Dark Dominion'' section of chapter 4, or in the ''Shadow Ways'' section of this one...), which seems to be the only part left (we're at page 100, and according to Amazon the whole book has 128 pages).
Once again, we'll see with the next excerpt...
Hope dies last... I guess.
they said they had to respect the authors..... which is a load of garage, all it has to do is to pick up the phone and ask them if siad contreversial novel or novels if they mind were took out from being canon.
Also, E. and V. could've been brought back without deleting previous lore (i.e. novels, not that I would mind, since the events in those were a waste of potential, and unfitting for the personalities of the two deities), but still adding depth and flavor to the drow. Like making them Archfeys, with few followers, not capable of influencing the Realms as before (so the drow would still be almost completely ''mwahaha! For powah and teh evulz!!11!'', since someone at WotC likes this so much), but still keeping alive the fight for drow's freedom, which is what makes the two of them awesome (beside their flavor, ofc), and what got me interested in the drow (interest that has evaporated when they decided to not publish anything else about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun).
For some reason they simply want to keep simplifying everything, not caring for what many people -potential customers- would like to see (just take a look at how popular the Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord are, even after their removal from canon), or for what could make the setting more interesting.
but every dm and their mother wants their players when they wish to be a drow to be evil, but what if my drow character is self imposed exile and is also a renegade, what makes every dm think to know my character??
and then there was kill on sight deals with some dms...... and some dms still have npcs kill drow on sight pc or not.
I guess the last hope of me buying this book will be at the book store when I can crack open its pages and at taht time, I'll walk out either with it or leave it behind.
yeah but drow always were powahs of da evulz.
Lolthite drow are. Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites (which, to an extent, have a meaningful goal, which is not powah) are not. They add depth to an otherwise flat and one-note race, besides being very interesting characters on their own. I've already talked about this many times on these forums.
As for the DM thingy, well ofc canon and attitued towards drow pcs varies from table to table, but in my previous posts I was talking about the setting itself and its story, not about the game. And from this it seems that WotC is determined to keep walking the simplified, streamline route.
At this point FR drow are identical to GH drow, just more influent with their world spanning plans of conquest.
Ed Greenwood's take on the Drow or Nilfghar in "Dark Warrior Rising" and "Dark Vengance" are really cool. Then again I like Ed's non-realms fiction better than I do his realms fiction. I love Ed's realms fiction.
Pathfinder's Drow are cool also.
That changes if you take in consideration Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites, who have the brain to recognize what their kin is forced into and dare to choose something else, fighting for this kind of freedom. This adds a very interesting conflict to the whole race, turning it into something worthy of attention, instead of a bunch of frustrated puppets.
from the sounds of its exccerpts, it does not sopund to likely that Eilistraee will be back.
This makes me want to dance naked in the moonlight.
are Ed's non dnd dark elves drow or alfar???
I believe they were svartalfar, but I didn't get very far before I decided I can't read this.
from the sounds of its exccerpts, it does not sopund to likely that Eilistraee will be back.
This makes me want to dance naked in the moonlight.
Whatever. Rejoicing because many people won't get something they wish (something that is a neat and meaningful concept that enriches the FR, btw), while you don't even get any real advantage from them not getting it, is just selfish and rather pointless.
it does not sopund to likely that Eilistraee will be back.
This makes me want to dance naked in the moonlight.
Rejoicing because many people won't get something they wish (something that is a neat and meaningful concept that enriches the FR, btw), while you don't even get any real advantage from them not getting it, is just selfish and rather pointless.
Drow irony.
rather pointless and what a trollish comment
youre just mad cause your quote was butchered, haha.
Actually I'd like to see both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back, but somehow on the same front. They are both peculiar and interesting characters on their own, I wouldn't like to see that lost.
Eilistraee is the underdog struggling against overwhelming odds, the rebel who stands up to tyranny. She stands for freedom of expression, of fulfillment, of life itself, and is a shining beacon of hope for the drow, as she offers them the freedom and the happiness that they were unjustly denied, the possibility to live by choices that belong only to them, and that are not imposed by some indoctrinating mechanism. And she does that by being a symbol of all that is good and wondrous in life, a star in a sea of inky darkness, singing to the very souls and hearts of her people. She isn't opposed to Lolth in the sense of trying to destroy her, although she passionately fights for her creatures when they are threatened (and that's why the ML, which basically is ''get Lolth'', defeats her point). That is Vhaeraun's approach. He is a militant whose purpose is to undermine the already precarious balance of drow society, making it crumble under the weight of people who no longer want to be puppets or pawns for the fun of a deity with clear ego issues, and wish to conquer a worthy existence for themselves and their race. One where instead of agonizing due to infighting and being forced in shiny cages underground, the Dark Elves can extend themselves into becoming a race worthy of respect. So Vhaeraun stands for rebellion through violence, through fierce fighting.
The ML mixes these concepts, but in doing so loses flavor from both of them, which is a shame as I see it. I think that having E. and V. teaming up would be a much better idea, as their neat and strong flavors make for an interesting dichotomy, without excluding each other. An idea that -judging by a map from the Menzo book that WotC uploaded- was in the process of being introduced in FR canon, but that -from what I see the previews of the book- seems to have been cut in the editing. Whatever they like, I guess.
rather pointless and what a trollish comment
Didn't you already indicate such (with your previous "Ditto")? Or were you possibly referring to my comment?
meant no offense
man I'm goiing to ahve to go down to hastings then......
is Eilistraee alive in it????
do spoil all things on her....
The book is set up for multiple era's of Realmlore.
The Demon Weave sounds interesting.
In the appropriate era...
Indeed- Khelben ARunson
In the appropriate era...
I lold at that.
Fun aside, do you like the book?
Just picked it up. Saw BRJ's name on it, so I know it's a name that I can trust. Looks to be a lore heavy tome. I will know more once I have had a chance to really look thru it...
So how is it really? Lot of new lore in it? Or is it just older stuff rehashed? I still have the old box set, do I need this book? Would it make a nice companion book to the box set?
Just how I roll I guess.
If you lot bugged me about it that much and I had it, I wouldn't say anything beyond a
Just how I roll I guess.
You got it too!!? Does it have maps? I love maps!
That is disappointing news.
Truly. They could've made Eilistraee and Vhaeraun Archfeys (and this seemed to be the initial purpose of the authors, before WotC hit) if they wanted to limit their influence, and have the drow being mainly Lolth's puppets. But they're really popular characters and add much to the FR, I don't understand why they are so stubborn in not bringing them back in canon. It is a shame that their story concluded in such a wasteful way, in the canonical setting that is... As I said many times, not a matter of game here, but rather of the Realms themselves.
However, for some reason someone at WotC doesn't want them in the published FR, even tho they are inspiring and neat characters, and even tho they are widely popular. Who knows, maybe we'll see them back to canon in future eras (of RW, I mean
). Jokes aside, we're just left with the chance that the new FR dev team, with trusted names in it, will do something in regard. But honestly, this is just a ''hope dies last'' kind of situation.In the appropriate era...
I lold at that.
Fun aside, do you like the book?
So far, so good.
Mystra is a vestige, so E & V could be vestiges...
Thing is Mystra was killed in Cormyr during the Times of Troubles, so the vestige that contacted Elminster was probably her, not Ariel Manx AKA Midnight.;)
Silver it has a beautiful poster map that I want to hang in a picture frame.
EDIT: Had to correct some info...
It says that E killed her brother V, then her AVATAR was in her Chosen who was beheaded by Lolth's Lady Penitant. So after thinking about it, one could spin it...
Mystra is a vestige, so E & V could be vestiges...
Thing is Mystra was killed in Cormyr during the Times of Troubles, so the vestige that contacted Elminster was probably her, not Ariel Manx AKA Midnight.;)
Silver it has a beautiful poster map that I want to hang in a picture frame.
If you look at this map, which was supposed to be in the book (it was released as an ''early preview'', but it looks like it and the lore connected were removed), the initial intention will become pretty clear: Eilistraee and Vhaearun were going to be archfeys, and not hostile to each other anymore, so the explanation I proposed (and that has already been proposed before on this forum) in the other post could make sense.
That said -obviously- In one's Realms, or in speculations E. and V. can be all you want, as their fate is left vague: vestiges, deities, archfeys, whatever (in fact, if I was to run a campaign, and if drow and elves were in it, my take on E. and V. would be wildly different from canon -I would take the archfey route, while tweaking many parts of the LP events-). This wouldn't change the concrete side of the fact: in canon (i.e. what I'm buying, the published Realms, not mine) their story would be done, the drow would be one-note caricature GH clones, and the Dark Maiden, the Masked Lord and the struggle for freedom that they represent in their own unique way would simply not be there. No development that could really advance their story would be possible anymore in canon (unless WotC decided to bring them back, ofc), and this kinda sucks.
This is an example of the ''canon limiting multiple era story development'' issue I was talking about in another thread: I don't care if they tell me you can use them in past eras and give me info I already have, this is obvious (as it is obvious that I can use any thing I like in any era as I see fit). Fact is that I won't be reading more stories about them that can actually achieve something. The only thing I can hope for at this point is that the new team bring them back, but I'm not optimistic about it, as it looks like WotC think that the drow must be some ''mwahaha, power... and so on'' trivial minions, not people who can think and make their choices.
That map isn't in the book...
That's the point. It was released in a packet of early preivews of the Menzo book in that 'Drow puzzle hunt (in June). That map clearly points out to E. and V. being back in canon as archfeys, so the early (and not so much, since in June it was still there) intention was that, but it looks like the editors (WotC) decided to cut this whole angle.
catch is that not everyone can play an evil drow and when someone plays adrow everyone expects them to be evil and a few dms have the kill on sight mentality....
so waht would you do if i showed up with a cn aligned( or in the case of 4e unaligned) female drow swordmage that is a stripper by profession??
Eilistraee and vhaerun do need to be returned to the realms......
About drow roots: as it was said about changes in 4e, things evolve. Drow as a bunch of brainwashed puppets in Lolth's hands, all fundamentally identical to each other, are not interesting villains on the long run (they only result interesting when you read about them for the first times, the surprise effect -IMO-), as this shows that they have no spine to stand up and make their own crucial choices about their life. If someone wanted standardized drow, he/she could very well have them in his/her game. The ''canon is yours to choose from'' thingy isn't only valid in the sense that you can bring in your game concepts that were removed, but also in the sense that you can choose to ignore concepts that are there. But from the PoV of the Realms themselves and of the story, drow which include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun and their struggle against tyranny clearly bring much more characterization and depth than the stereotypical and trivial bad guys who are all focused on conquering the world for some non-existent reason (and even worse: not out of their own volition, but of divine mandate...). And even ignoring this, brother and sister are flavorful, valid and well received characters, so I don't see any reason to not bring them back in canon, given the reason behind their removal.
Fact is that I won't be reading more stories about them that can actually achieve something.
Unless, what the achieve in the story that is set in an earlier era, allows for them to be returned to the setting in a later one...
... of course, that is just me hoping for Mystra's (not Midnight's) and Eilistraee's return...
... *goes back to crossing fingers*
Originally posted by Brian R. James
unfortunately the content with Eilistraee and Vhaerun didn't make the final cut. The best way you can voice your support for the siblings would be to contact Wizards directly. who knows, if enough people show interest there a possibility that it could be released online sometime in the future.
erdana,Arial,Helvetica">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">While I cannot share the text of what I submitted to WotC, Irennan is pretty much spot on in our idea of how to keep consistent with the old lore while returning Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The Masked Lady sacrificed her divinity and returned as an archfey -- actually two archfey. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee lost their names in the sacrifice and now only havw their ancestral titles of the Mask on the Moon and the Dancing Maiden. While the archfey cannot grant spells, PCs would directly interact with the spirits of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They ruled from the Grotto of SIlver and Shadow (the map was included in the map pack), which has fallen into ruin in the centuries that they were gods. So drow servants of the Lord and Lady have two great tasks -- fight the oppression of Lolth while reclaiming a feydark realm from the wilderness and evil fey such as the fomorians. This gives judges two great campaigns - one based entirely in the feydark and dealing with other fey and one in the Underdark continuing the fight against Lolth and her minions.
Their followers would be far fewer than before, making every PC who serves the Lady and the Lord that much more important. Also, servants of Lolth are searching for the hidden Grotto and hunting the Lady and the Lord's followers constantly. Being a servant of the archfey would be a harrowing experience of a rebel, fighting overwhelming odds.
This is a very interesting approach IMO that has the potential for good stories, and it'd make me really happy to see it explored in a DDI article...
But anyway, pass mourning, why has no one mentioned Corellon at all in all this? I mean the whole drow race is really a Lolth versus Corellon thing. Isn't it reasonable to assume that the drow have a choice between those two deities, instead of just Lolth? Corellon sat at the sava board at the end of The Lady Pentinent series. I can only assume this means he will offer a place for the drow to come back to, eradicating only those who will keep serving Lolth (while offering a place of redemption for others).
Unless this has been addressed since that series was published and I am way behind?
I am surprised they didn't just stick with that, then... oh Vhaeraun!
But anyway, pass mourning, why has no one mentioned Corellon at all in all this? I mean the whole drow race is really a Lolth versus Corellon thing. Isn't it reasonable to assume that the drow have a choice between those two deities, instead of just Lolth? Corellon sat at the sava board at the end of The Lady Pentinent series. I can only assume this means he will offer a place for the drow to come back to, eradicating only those who will keep serving Lolth (while offering a place of redemption for others).
Unless this has been addressed since that series was published and I am way behind?
Fact is that WotC want the drow to be near entirely pure Lolth-indoctrinated people, as far as I can tell. It doesn't matter whether it is Eilistraee, Vhaeraun or Corellon (which honestly I wouldn't like at all. It was him who doomed a whole race for nothing, doing nothing to mitigate the hatred between elves and drow, to limit the slaughter, after all. Besides, his children would add much more to the drow than he would, the struggle for freedom, an interesting twist of the Seldarine vs Lolth thingy*) to offer choice, they seem to not want it to become part of the canonical Realms (even tho this struggle -and the siblings- are part of the real origin of the realmsian drow, their characterizing mark. Plus they are very popular and a lot of people would be happy to see them back), which is a total waste. Then, I might be wrong, but their actions definitely point to this...
*Furthermore, Corellon hasn't taken part to the fight for the drow (as it is shown by his totally absent efforts in offering the drow freedom. Just consider how his clerics react to drow...), he simply took the handful of ''redeemed'' dark elves as his followers (in fact Lolth says some BS like ''mwahaha drow all are mine'', but then Corellon makes her notice that Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's followers are no longer drow).
SIGNATURES FOR THE FALLEN!Shall we all do a petition to bring back Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Archfey? SIGNATURES FOR THE FALLEN!
I kinda want them to be gods before archfey. But, if there's no chance of them returning to Deity status (without some fan support), I'll vote for archfey too
Eilistraee, though? She can go jump off a cliff.
Nah, I kid. I'm fine with her coming back, too.
I really want this book but I don't want to wait 2 months for my base bookstore to receive it, nor wait two weeks for amazon LOL. Is there an eBook version or other legal computerized version? Or plans to release one? I tried looking on amazon but there doesn't seem to be an ebook version. I guess I might have to do a regular amazon order after all, and swtop being so impatient. :P
Shall we all do a petition to bring back Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Archfey? SIGNATURES FOR THE FALLEN!
Sure thing, you have my vote too (obviously).
I kinda want them to be gods before archfey. But, if there's no chance of them returning to Deity status (without some fan support), I'll vote for archfey too
Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have a lot of fan support. Just look around and you will see that a lot of people want them to be back in canon, and that the vast majority of FR fans would be totally fine with them coming back.
Fact is that WotC simply don't want them as deities, so the authors of this book proposed the archfey solution, to greatly limit their influence, power and number of followers (which would've been, as one of the authors said, much fewer than before) while keeping them and the struggle they stand for alive. I don't know with precision what happened, but according to what I've read initially this proposal was accepted (in fact, they got to write the material, and maps -Grotto of Silver and Shadow- and art -the picture previewed with the excerpt of the 3rd chapter represents a follower of the Dancing Maiden and the Masked Lord cornered by some lolthites- were prepared for the release), but it was removed later (actually, close to the release date, because in June -when the map was released with their puzzle game- the section was still part of the book), despite the authors thoughts that the siblings would add much opportunities for storytelling and depth to the drow, and despite their fight to have that section of the book published (and I'd add, depsite the fact that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are what makes the FR drow unique, big part of the realmsian drow's origin, representing that in the Realms there are drow -beside Drizzt- who dare to stand up and live by and fight for their own choices and freedom, that refuse to live brainwashed by pointless and meaningless dogma, that refuse to be simply puppets in Lolth's hands. And this is something awesome, which totally deserves a place in the incoming ''brave new world'')
Now the reasons behind this are beyond me, but I only know that it was a wasted opportunity to show that complexity and variety are coming back to the Realms, and a waste of meaningful, flavorful and popular characters, of opportunities for cool stories and plot hooks. So yeah, if anyone from WotC's reading this, -please- publish the cut content as a DDI article. It looks like good lore, and it'd be a shame for it to not make it into the FR. For once, to see it publsihed would make me (and many others as well, as far as I can see) happy...
That is unless -assuming that the removed material was published as a DDI article- they specifically stated that it is not canon (which -honestly- would suck on their side: it'd show unwillingness to return flavorful, cool and beloved elements to the Realms, justified by no apparent reason). But even then, the new lore could be easily canonized in future, if authors wanted to write about the Dancing Maiden and the Masked Lord in the new era, using their sacrifice of their divine status and they turning back into archfey as a basis for further development.
...and give Sehanine her separate identity and full name back...
...and Hanali Celanil...
...and... oh... you get the idea.
I can 100% tell you thier coming back, because we've been told that all the Gods are coming back. A more likely reason it cut is that they were going to be brought back as Archfey, which would conflict with bring them back as Gods for 5e. Think about it, look at the timing. You'll be able to have a cleric of the Masked Lady or her seperate parts in 5e, by RAW. I don't know who much direct support you'll have.
Bringing them back as Archfey wouldn't contrast at all with Ao writing names on his/her/its notepad. First, because if their names were written, they could easily be promoted again to deity status; second, because when WotC say ALL gods are back, they mean it like ''Hey, your god can be back if you wish, because Ao might have or might not have written his/her name on the tablets, but in truth none knows if this is true or not'' (basically they're saying: ''you can use all the deities you wish in your game, but there's no warranty that we will support them with stories/lore... in the new era''), so a follower of Eilistraee/Vhaeraun (or more precisely, Dancing Maiden/Masked Lord) could easily receive spells from another deity, staying coherent with the archfey solution. Besides, WotC won't get rid of the Archfey and the likes because they explicitly said no retcon, so no risk here. So, this is an interesting way to have brother and sister back in the new FR, one which -honestly- is way more fitting and flavorful than ''*poof* they're (or worse, might be) back'' (even tho I could live with the latter if it actually brought them back).
That said, the fact that WotC chose to remove such conetent -even tho it is a fitting (and elegant IMO) conclusion of previous lore (the ML didn't sacrifice her life, but her divinity, turning E. and V. into archfey who are still fighting for the drow, which makes way more sense and is way more fitting than E. turning her back to the vast majority of drow because of their presumed ''unwillingness'' to redeem, which is something that makes no sense at all, and was just a tool to get rid of her, not to add flavor to the setting) which enriches and completes the drow- is something that -alas- clearly points against Eilistraee and Vhaeraun being back in action in canon (even tho the possibility is there).
So, if that is impossible as gods, then why not as archfey? If anything they, as were supposed to be in the book (drastically reduced power and influence and extremely low number of followers), would make the drow even more mysterious and exotic and true to their FR characterization, if that was the editors' concern*.
Besides -setting aside for a moment that E. and V. are big part of what characterizes the drow in the FR- Wizards should consider that a lot of people would be happy to see the siblings in action again; and that if they are so steady in wanting the drow as monsters, then for game purpose DMs can easily choose to have it, but Realms-wise fans don't have as much choice, and wasting characters and stories -especially when they are so popular and valid- is just bad. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun totally deserve their own place in the new hopeful era of the Realms. All of these are some of the reasons why I'm asking so much for the cut content to be published, it would be really appreciated.
*To an extent, they would make the dark elves even more villainous. Monsters drow act and live mainly out of divine mandates and dogma that indoctrinated them, not out of their own volition. They are pawns, oppressed: they as a race don't forge their future, but rather depend on their goddess for it. They're not movers and not charismatic villains. Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites, who have in common the struggle for the possibility to live by their choices, would add an alternative, and therefore brainwashing and pleasing Lolth as slaves would not be the only reason for drow as a race to be ''evil'' anymore: some decision on their side would be involved.
