Go, check out the new design & development article on the main page. Interesting to say the least. Astral sea, the abyss is a scar on the plane of elemental tempest? The blood war could be over?
I got one thing about that article and that is the designers
1) Didn't understand the planes
2) Didn't understand Demons
3) Didn't understand Devils
4) Didn't understand the blood war
5) Didn't understand Planescape
6) Didn't understand alot
Now we have
1) Demons who are unthinking creatures dumb beasts.
2) There changes to devils are only in appearence
3) A very much empty cosomolgy that has not the tenth of the richness of the old one.
Yeah, I was like wtf when I saw the article. I attemped to post a link, for some reason my link fu WONT WORK! I guess they will leave no stone untured with 4th edition. I use the wheel in my realms. I wonder what we are going to get with 4th edition. The abyss is now a scar on the plane of elemental tempest. Astral sea I like. The abyss wtf. I think a feeblemind is affecting WotC. Wtf
Ah, your link fu is weak young one. Here you go.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070924
Ah, your link fu is weak young one. Here you go.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070924
Thanks John.
I try to post links they wont work for me!
The link you posted I tried to post, just as you posted it. They wont work, its frustrating. Thanks again John.UNLESS it is spoken of a campaign setting directly, it is about the implied CORE mini-setting.
They understood all very well, they just speak of another world, with others rules and themes and all. WHo may be actually good, just not tied to the old (lot of grognardise here... 'It is NOT how it should be!) worlds and implied stuff.
If this is not said FR, remember, Core.
So calm down. And wait & see as me.
Remember, guys...
UNLESS it is spoken of a campaign setting directly, it is about the implied CORE mini-setting.
They understood all very well, they just speak of another world, with others rules and themes and all. WHo may be actually good, just not tied to the old (lot of grognardise here... 'It is NOT how it should be!) worlds and implied stuff.
If this is not said FR, remember, Core.
So calm down. And wait & see as me.
I hope so, I hope so. Yet have you read any of the Grand History(1385 The Year of Blue Fire) It Could Happen. I really dont use the planes all that much, just something else to relearn. This will truly be WotC D&D.
I hope so, I hope so. Yet have you read any of the Grand History(1385 The Year of Blue Fire) It Could Happen. I really dont use the planes all that much, just something else to relearn. This will truly be WotC D&D.
It will crash divine realms if gods die, that is sure - and understandable.
But from what I get, the planes might be the LESS affectred places - after all, everything go on much on the 'backwater prime'.
Now we have
1) Demons who are unthinking creatures dumb beasts.
2) There changes to devils are only in appearence
3) A very much empty cosomolgy that has not the tenth of the richness of the old one.
You're comparing a short 5,000 word glossy essay to 30 years and thousands of hours of work.
Also, Christ Sims has written the following:
In this short article, I couldn't do much more than make generalities.
Demons are anything but cut-and-dry killers, but they come off that way overall. Of course, as 4e develops, all the fiends will get more treatment.
So, really, this essay isn't even the tip of the iceberg (hopefully).
Did anyone else notice that they are making Tharizdun core? Does this mean they are going to try and work Tharizdun into the Realms? WTF!?!?!
Didn't hear that (won't pay for DDI, for now at least)...
But that could be nice though (in a crossover tale), if well-done.
Maybe he is the origin of Moander... Maybe he is an anti-AO...
Maybe he is the origin of Moander... Maybe he is an anti-AO...
Or maybe he's a Gygaxian Fantastical States of Generikka/Greyhawk/New core meta-setting deity that will not be connected to FR in any way becuase the FR setting will have it's own cosmology.
Or maybe he's a Gygaxian Fantastical States of Generikka/Greyhawk/New core meta-setting deity that will not be connected to FR in any way becuase the FR setting will have it's own cosmology.
L'ami, I was throwing that idea in the air as a sidenote, crossover thing.
I admit not liking Greyhawk much (but most for the rather often fiery hardcore fans than the rest of reasons), but not need to blow up.
As I said, Core stay core, and the Campaigns stay as they are.
- Snippet of information is leaked by an article.
- Posters scream that the sky is falling, WoTC is run by moronic subhumanoids, etc.
- Longer article gives a fuller explanation, including WoTC's reasoning for the change and references to prior edititions.
- A snippet of information is leaked by the new article
- Posters scream...
Honestly, folks. Give it a rest. We know absolutely, positively nothing. Hold your tongue until we have at least some details, honestly.
And once again, the cycle begins...
- Snippet of information is leaked by an article.
- Posters scream that the sky is falling, WoTC is run by moronic subhumanoids, etc.
- Longer article gives a fuller explanation, including WoTC's reasoning for the change and references to prior edititions.
- A snippet of information is leaked by the new article
- Posters scream...
Honestly, folks. Give it a rest. We know absolutely, positively nothing. Hold your tongue until we have at least some details, honestly.
Well, this whole 'Astral Sea' thing seems to be a major change. It may make sense, but the old 2e planes made sense, too. In a way.
I will probably not use the new fluff.
Well, this whole 'Astral Sea' thing seems to be a major change. It may make sense, but the old 2e planes made sense, too. In a way.
And if we called it a plane instead of a sea, how would it be any different from 2e?
To the naysayers, you don't have to use this cosmology. I know it won't effect my setting's reshuffling of the planes one bit. I like the implications of the article, Planescape is a nice setting on its own, but as an Afterlife/framework for reality, it seemed forced, cheesy and cartooney to me.
*Sarcasm on*
"NOOOOOO your wrong! I HAVE to use it. It is written in an official rulebook. I now am obligated to shut off my brain and use whatever the designers put into the book! Why can't they be super smart like me? In my HOMEBREW world Blah Blah Blah....."
*Sarcasm off*
Hopefully one way or the other FR cosmology will be fun to play in, whatever it looks like.
And once again, the cycle begins...
- Snippet of information is leaked by an article.
- Posters scream that the sky is falling, WoTC is run by moronic subhumanoids, etc.
- Longer article gives a fuller explanation, including WoTC's reasoning for the change and references to prior edititions.
- A snippet of information is leaked by the new article
- Posters scream...
Honestly, folks. Give it a rest. We know absolutely, positively nothing. Hold your tongue until we have at least some details, honestly.
Welcome to my sig, population: Irving.
Aside from this cold splash of Truth, the "Astral Sea" thing isn't a big deal. Maybe - just maybe - this term is nothing more than what scholars of this Prime world have taken to calling the astral.
We're months from a finished PHB, let alone DMG, where this would be detailed, so lets all remember to take a deep breath and calmly, rationally, and politely offer our opinions to the game developers.
Also,
Show
Astral Pirates of the Caribbean.
Astral Pirates of the Caribbean.
You're comparing a short 5,000 word glossy essay to 30 years and thousands of hours of work.
So, really, this essay isn't even the tip of the iceberg (hopefully).
I don't like it when outplanar creatures have to be anything (Devils are almost normal looking demons are monstrous brutes)
Also I really don't like lines like," Well in real mythology, blah, blah, blah." I don;t want a game that mirror's real world mythology.
You are right I am comparing a 5,000 word essay to 30 years of work...that is my point after all why throw out those 30 years of work? Build on it.
I don't like it when outplanar creatures have to be anything (Devils are almost normal looking demons are monstrous brutes)
Also I really don't like lines like," Well in real mythology, blah, blah, blah." I don;t want a game that mirror's real world mythology.
You are right I am comparing a 5,000 word essay to 30 years of work...that is my point after all why throw out those 30 years of work? Build on it.
Nothing is being thrown out just yet. Remember that Core is using a new default setting called Points of Light and the new Cosmology is only for that setting so far. And I doubt that WotC will try to force the new Cosmology into the existing settings since Points of Light seems like a dumb down setting for new players to be able to jump right into the game without much difficulty and existing settings will be more of experienced players who want more depth to their games.
Nothing is being thrown out just yet. Remember that Core is using a new default setting called Points of Light and the new Cosmology is only for that setting so far. And I doubt that WotC will try to force the new Cosmology into the existing settings since Points of Light seems like a dumb down setting for new players to be able to jump right into the game without much difficulty and existing settings will be more of experienced players who want more depth to their games.
Just look at the GHotR before you say they won't force the new cosomolgy on existing settings. It is in the last year...it says something to the effect that the planes will be reordered. mmmm wonder in to what?
We're months from a finished PHB, let alone DMG, where this would be detailed, so lets all remember to take a deep breath and calmly, rationally, and politely offer our opinions to the game developers.
About two and a half months by my guess. I think they'll need the external Playtest by December as it will take about another month to sift through and integrate all the playtest information. That means February is when the final product goes to print and it will take about 3 months to print all the books needed for the initial launch.
About two and a half months by my guess. I think they'll need the external Playtest by December as it will take about another month to sift through and integrate all the playtest information. That means February is when the final product goes to print and it will take about 3 months to print all the books needed for the initial launch.
Aren't they producing those preview books in late December?
Aren't they producing those preview books in late December?
Yep, but my guess is those will not include any of the platest report fixes.
Yep, but my guess is those will not include any of the platest report fixes.
I dunno, that's very dangerous. Releasing a product that show cases your concepts only to radically change them a few months later... Seems like it will only cause more complaining by nay sayers (and normal people) who liked certain things in the Previews but were changed in the final product. I know they can not include all changes made due to the play tests but not including any of them is a very dangerous game.
And if we called it a plane instead of a sea, how would it be any different from 2e?
Yes. In 2e, the Astral was a transitional plane. Now, all the other planes float in it. No Great Wheel, not even a Great Tree anymore.
Yes, the Great Wheel is an abstraction. You can't walk the outlands and just stumble over the edge to find yourself into the Abyss or Mechanus.
And I like the ethical and moral boundaries of the Wheel. I like how belief shapes the whole setting, and that parts of one plane can shift into another when belief in these parts changes.
Planes floating around into a sea prevent that from happen. It sounds very prime-like. Like continents that don't move (much). It sounds static.
I didn't say the Astral was in the middle of the Wheel. That's the Outlands.
...er, no. I just pointed that out. An infinite space - Outlands, Astral, whatever - can't be in the "middle" of anything, becuase that implies boundaries.
And I like the ethical and moral boundaries of the Wheel. I like how belief shapes the whole setting, and that parts of one plane can shift into another when belief in these parts changes. Planes floating around into a sea prevent that from happen.
How? You've got zero information that it will be "prevented from happening". Barely a snippet on information from an article that wasn't even about the planes except in the most marginal of ways. If anything, planes "floating on a sea" ought to be more mobile than planes locked on a wheel. Things move in the sea all the time. It's, you know, fluid.
It sounds very prime-like. Like continents that don't move (much). It sounds static.
"Sounds"? How? Show me where in the text its says that planes don't - or do - move. Assuming that they ever did, seeing as, once again with feeling, they are all infinite spaces.
Look at FR, some people still consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape (like me) and others implement the new Tree cosmology.
Krynn, I still consider it part of Planescape and Takhisis is merely an aspect of Tiamat, but some people have embraced the new Cosmology that came along in the Dragonlance d20 hardcover.
Now Dark Sun was interesting, because in the Dragon Kings hardcover they suggested that it was in its own Alternate Material plane with its own Elemental planes etc, but the Spacefarers Handbook suggested that Dark Sun (athas) was part of the Planescape/Spelljammer cosmology in a closed crystal sphere. And in the 3.5 Dark Sun articles in Dragon they separated in into its own cosmology like FR, Krynn and Eberron.
Speaking of Eberron, I consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape in my current Planescape campaign, but that doesn't mean I couldn't run an Eberron campaign and use its particular cosmology.
So the only current official 3.5 campaign setting that uses the Great Wheel is Greyhawk.
This new 4th Ed cosmology is for the "Points of Light" implied setting – big deal.
Bye! Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
Honestly, it's about time for something other than the Alignment Pizza to get some consideration. Any consideration.
I for one will be happy to sail aroung the astral and visit the various planes and go on adventures there
Like that song from long ago, come sail away, come sail away, come sail away with me. Only if Quenthal Banrae is the captin, & I can be her little buddy. Now that would be a good time fo sho!
Look at FR, some people still consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape (like me) and others implement the new Tree cosmology.
I use both, it just depends on the observers perspective. I think the real structure of the planes is somewhat abstract and beyond a mere mortal to really understand.
Remember, guys...
UNLESS it is spoken of a campaign setting directly, it is about the implied CORE mini-setting.
They understood all very well, they just speak of another world, with others rules and themes and all. WHo may be actually good, just not tied to the old (lot of grognardise here... 'It is NOT how it should be!) worlds and implied stuff.
If this is not said FR, remember, Core.
So calm down. And wait & see as me.
Agreed and seconded.
...er, no. I just pointed that out. An infinite space - Outlands, Astral, whatever - can't be in the "middle" of anything, becuase that implies boundaries.
You seem to take the Wheel quite literally. It's not, as I said before. It's an abstraction, a model of what the cosmology could look like, constructed for the mortal mind to comprehend.
"Sounds"? How? Show me where in the text its says that planes don't - or do - move. Assuming that they ever did, seeing as, once again with feeling, they are all infinite spaces.
Yes, they are. And it's not a matter of moving or not. It's a matter of how belief affects them. If there is some place in one plane that slowly drifts of into another plane because the inhabitants change their beliefs, then how do you explain that in a Great Sea model?
Said part cannot simply "break off" one plane and then join another, because there is the Astral between them. Usually, the boundaries between the planes grow 'thin' in these areas. Portals come into existence, and you can cross over more easily. If the Astral lies between them (and this time literally), how is that supposed to happen?
I don't understand why you are so (seemingly) angry about what I say. It's not a big deal. The cosmology affects only few FR campaigns. And if I play a Planescape campaign, I play it in the Wheel. You can use the Sea, if you like. Doesn't matter to me.
It's really no big deal; you've always been able to go with any cosmology you like.
Look at FR, some people still consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape (like me) and others implement the new Tree cosmology.
Krynn, I still consider it part of Planescape and Takhisis is merely an aspect of Tiamat, but some people have embraced the new Cosmology that came along in the Dragonlance d20 hardcover.
Now Dark Sun was interesting, because in the Dragon Kings hardcover they suggested that it was in its own Alternate Material plane with its own Elemental planes etc, but the Spacefarers Handbook suggested that Dark Sun (athas) was part of the Planescape/Spelljammer cosmology in a closed crystal sphere. And in the 3.5 Dark Sun articles in Dragon they separated in into its own cosmology like FR, Krynn and Eberron.
Speaking of Eberron, I consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape in my current Planescape campaign, but that doesn't mean I couldn't run an Eberron campaign and use its particular cosmology.
So the only current official 3.5 campaign setting that uses the Great Wheel is Greyhawk.
This new 4th Ed cosmology is for the "Points of Light" implied setting – big deal.
Maybe all og the settings that had there own cosmology in 3E will now be part of a Plansape type Planar enviroment like in 2E. Maybe some mega event will rock the Multiverse and create a FINAL CRISIS....
Oi vey ;) .
Said part cannot simply "break off" one plane and then join another, because there is the Astral between them. Usually, the boundaries between the planes grow 'thin' in these areas. Portals come into existence, and you can cross over more easily. If the Astral lies between them (and this time literally), how is that supposed to happen?
You're right. I can't happen "naturally". Asmodeous would have to make plans for it to happen. Plans adventurers can discover, and fight against, and break. It would have to be a much more active process, one that demands the PCs get involved - an adventure - rather than a nautral process.
And this is decidedly an improvement.
I don't understand why you are so (seemingly) angry about what I say. It's not a big deal. The cosmology affects only few FR campaigns. And if I play a Planescape campaign, I play it in the Wheel. You can use the Sea, if you like. Doesn't matter to me.
I'm just exasperated by how thoroughly this community clings to nostalgia and old material in the face of creative changes. I already took a big swing at this in the Don Quixote thread in the Criticism forum, and I'm still a little in "rant on" mode. Sorry if I gave offense.
But honestly, folks. Planescape is a decade old. The gaming industry barely resembles istself since then. Maybe we can come up with better ideas in ten years? Especially under a company that actually cares what its consumers think about its products (unlike TSR)?
I'm just exasperated by how thoroughly this community clings to nostalgia and old material in the face of creative changes. I already took a big swing at this in the Don Quixote thread in the Criticism forum, and I'm still a little in "rant on" mode. Sorry if I gave offense.
But honestly, folks. Planescape is a decade old. The gaming industry barely resembles istself since then. Maybe we can come up with better ideas in ten years? Especially under a company that actually cares what its consumers think about its products (unlike TSR)?
There's something else that people are missing in all of this:
Regardless of the fact that the designers tell us that the planes are laid out thusly, doesn't mean that any characters (PC or NPC) know this or subscribe to that theory of arrangement. It's like asking a room full of theoretical physicists how many dimensions there are and if/how they interact. You'll get a different answer from almost every one, and even more if they start tossing ideas around.
Just because we get a top-down view of the planes does not mean that our characters have anything resembling that. The Great Wheel seemed to give that to the folks of Sigil, but as much as I adore Planescape, it never made the transition to 3/3.5, and before you ask, I don't count the Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook as replacements for the setting.
Even beyond that, the nature of planar travel, and the interaction between planes doesn't seem to have changed, excepting the whole Abyss/Maelstrom thing, which is rather weird. I can't see this drastically damaging most games, although the alteration of the inner(elemental) planes does look ready to pose a problem. The Feywild and Shadowfell are just extra planes thrown in, and having survived the para and quasi-elemental planes of late 2e, they don't phase me in the least.
Maybe all og the settings that had there own cosmology in 3E will now be part of a Plansape type Planar enviroment like in 2E. Maybe some mega event will rock the Multiverse and create a FINAL CRISIS....
Oi vey ;) .
Does that mean we get an Anti-Ao?
Will Elminster and Drizzt suddenly become even more uber, just to defeat this impossibly powerful foe, only to get hit with the nerfbat once the writers realize that the heroes are now able to take down every single deity at once with nothing more than a loud fart?
Will Sturm Brightblade suddenly be revived from the dead, hook up with the Knights of Myth Drannor, and wander Faerun like he belongs there, with only Mirt the Moneylender remembering the original continuity?
Because if they did that, I would have to start a petition for Fflar Starbrow to get a Green Lantern power ring :D
You're right. I can't happen "naturally". Asmodeous would have to make plans for it to happen. Plans adventurers can discover, and fight against, and break. It would have to be a much more active process, one that demands the PCs get involved - an adventure - rather than a nautral process.
And this is decidedly an improvement.
But how? Does he slice off a portion of a plane, tie a rope to it and tow it through the Astral Sea to Baator? A "Sea" implicates real, material distance, not just ethical and moral distance. You have to bridge it somehow.
And who says it can't happen through a plot in the Wheel? If a baatezu wants a city in the Outlands to relocate into Hell, he starts to convert the inhabitants and to draw new settlers that in the long run change the outlook of said city.
But honestly, folks. Planescape is a decade old. The gaming industry barely resembles istself since then. Maybe we can come up with better ideas in ten years? Especially under a company that actually cares what its consumers think about its products (unlike TSR)?
If the ideas are better, I'll use them. If not, I will not. It's as simple as that.
But how? Does he slice off a portion of a plane, tie a rope to it and tow it through the Astral Sea to Baator? A "Sea" implicates real, material distance, not just ethical and moral distance. You have to bridge it somehow.
Through the Big Magical McGuffin Device of Doom, of course. The one the PCs have to wreck.
Maybe he opens a huge, colossal rift underneath it. Maybe he creates a giant demon that eats the border of the land out and cuts it adrift. Maybe he builds the biggest tow truck ever.
Who cares? It's not philosophy. It's a game. If you can make it into a good storyline, I'm dead certain you can come up with a logical justification. If you've got an open mind, the possibilities are endless.
And who says it can't happen through a plot in the Wheel? If a baatezu wants a city in the Outlands to relocate into Hell, he starts to convert the inhabitants and to draw new settlers that in the long run change the outlook of said city.
How is that fun? What do you do to stop that? Kille baatezu? Run around reconverting people, to keep a "natural law" from working? Missionary work as an adventure? What a snoozer. How do you know if you're even succeeding?
If it "just happens", through natural law instead of villanous intervention, the PCs are powerless to stop it. They're not heroes; they're witnesses. That's nowhere near as fun. The PCs were powerless to stop the migration of the Harmonium's concentration camp from Mount Celestia to Arcadia. Powerless<>fun. PCs need to be the focus of the story, always, period, bar none. Standing on the sidelines while history happens is not a part of the equation.
If the ideas are better, I'll use them. If not, I will not. It's as simple as that.
...but if you reject them before even giving them a fair consideration, then you're not even giving them that courtesy.
To rephrase a challenge I've yet to see anyone answer:
Explain to me how the new cosmology is less condusive to writing an adventure for PCs than the Great Wheel. At no time refer to an out-of-print book. Go.
styx and oceanus being the devilish vs divine ideas for water... and they mix in mortal seas, making water the way we know it. Its all part of that eternal struggle...
So once you are upon water, you can use this as a conduit to any other spot with water if you understand that secret.
Yggdrasil the same, sort of.. located on one of those astral isles.. and connected to every last single tree out there, birch to vipertree.. Understand this secret, and learn how to jump between trees.
Both of which can have you stay far away from the astral plane, and still visit those "astral islands"
Through the Big Magical McGuffin Device of Doom, of course. The one the PCs have to wreck.
Maybe he opens a huge, colossal rift underneath it. Maybe he creates a giant demon that eats the border of the land out and cuts it adrift. Maybe he builds the biggest tow truck ever.
Who cares? It's not philosophy. It's a game. If you can make it into a good storyline, I'm dead certain you can come up with a logical justification. If you've got an open mind, the possibilities are endless.
What the Heck? Sure it's philosophy. It's an philosophical model for the workings of the multiverse, albeit in game form. That's the beauty with playing on the planes: you got to think real hard before you act. If you don't, the results could be very bad either for you or for the multiverse. Most of the time it's both.
How is that fun? What do you do to stop that? Kille baatezu? Run around reconverting people, to keep a "natural law" from working? Missionary work as an adventure? What a snoozer. How do you know if you're even succeeding?
Somehow I think you're not interested in intrigue or politics...
If it "just happens", through natural law instead of villanous intervention, the PCs are powerless to stop it. They're not heroes; they're witnesses. That's nowhere near as fun. The PCs were powerless to stop the migration of the Harmonium's concentration camp from Mount Celestia to Arcadia. Powerless<>fun. PCs need to be the focus of the story, always, period, bar none. Standing on the sidelines while history happens is not a part of the equation.
But why were the PCs not being able to stop said migration? Did it matter to them? Did they have a personal interest in stopping it or did they have the mission to?
This kind of stuff happens all the time. It's no big deal. The planes are always in flux on the Wheel. The only constant is Sigil.
It's this lack of certainty that appeals to me. It never got stale, so there were no need to change it.
...but if you reject them before even giving them a fair consideration, then you're not even giving them that courtesy.
Oh, I will read into it. I'm just saying that the possibility that I will like it is rather small.
What the Heck? Sure it's philosophy. It's an philosophical model for the workings of the multiverse, albeit in game form.
No. Sorry. Game. In game section of bookstore, not philosophy section.
The only reason for the "philosophy" to exist is to make the game more fun. If it doesn't do that, then it's not usable.
Somehow I think you're not interested in intrigue or politics...
I like them a great deal. In games that support them properly. D&D is not that game. Take a look at how much of the PHB is devoted to "intrigue or politics", as opposed to combat. Maybe - just barely maybe - you could make the argument that 2e supported that playstyle more. But no matter how you slice it, you're talking about a lot of free-form RP that has little connection to any rules at all, let alone D&D.
This kind of stuff happens all the time. It's no big deal. The planes are always in flux on the Wheel. The only constant is Sigil.
So it's not important? Why should the PCs care at all, then? About anything that happens in the Planescape universe? If it happens all the time and they can't change it, how is this even an adventure?
If Planescape is a setting that neither needs nor particularaly wants heroes, I submit to you that it's not a setting worth playing.
Still waiting for a response to my challenge... show me that Planescape's got something going for it other than nostalgia.
Explain to me how the new cosmology is less condusive to writing an adventure for PCs than the Great Wheel. At no time refer to an out-of-print book. Go.
No. Sorry. Game. In game section of bookstore, not philosophy section.
The only reason for the "philosophy" to exist is to make the game more fun. If it doesn't do that, then it's not usable.
Well, the old Planescape setting does it for me.
I like them a great deal. In games that support them properly. D&D is not that game. Take a look at how much of the PHB is devoted to "intrigue or politics", as opposed to combat. Maybe - just barely maybe - you could make the argument that 2e supported that playstyle more. But no matter how you slice it, you're talking about a lot of free-form RP that has little connection to any rules at all, let alone D&D.
And that is a good thing.
So it's not important? Why should the PCs care at all, then? About anything that happens in the Planescape universe? If it happens all the time and they can't change it, how is this even an adventure?
Who says they cannot change it? They just have to have a motivation to do so.
If Planescape is a setting that neither needs nor particularaly wants heroes, I submit to you that it's not a setting worth playing.
You do generalize a lot, don't you? The fluent state of the planes is just one part of it's appeal. The 'grey' state about what's good and what's evil is another. A third is the myriads of (possible) worlds available with it's myriads of strange creatures.
I don't see that the belief-shaping of the planes can continue in the Astral Sea.
I don't see that the belief-shaping of the planes can continue in the Astral Sea.
Over the ages people create collective beliefs, those beliefs being a common subconsious are represented in the depths of the astral sea. When enough collective belief forms a small island, a representation of those beliefs, rises from the depths of the sea.
Those believers, through their belief created a divine entity who was drawn or even formed on that island... because as we all know, if god did not exist, we would have invented him.
As you can plainly see, the beliefs of mortals can effect the outer planes if you so chose it too.
Over the ages people create collective beliefs, those beliefs being a common subconsious are represented in the depths of the astral sea. When enough collective belief forms a small island, a representation of those beliefs, rises from the depths of the sea.
Those believers, through their belief created a divine entity who was drawn or even formed on that island... because as we all know, if god did not exist, we would have invented him.
As you can plainly see, the beliefs of mortals can effect the outer planes if you so chose it too.
That's creation and would work, I suppose. But I didn't meant that.
18D;)
-I am wondering if the Demonweb Pits will be in the Elemental Chaos or will it be a Dominion in the Astral Sea?:D Wow talk about thread Ressurection!!!:P
18D;)
Yeah, it seems like they are all coming back to life.
I am fairly certain that the Demonweb Pits end up in the Elemental Chaos. Trying to remember where I might have read it.