So, I'm drinking coffee and reading this morning (same as always, a mix of news, lore & whatever else might catch my fancy) and an odd thought crossed my mind that I'd like to share with you.
Corellon, god of the elves, protector and all the jazz... What if he knew what was going to happen?
Think about this for a moment; IMO, he is the most powerful of the interloper deities. His interests have always been for the Tel'Quessir first and foremost. He even went so far as to help them sunder the world so they could have a safe haven.
So, here are some of the facts we know:
- Corellon gave the people high magic, which is only usable by elves/eladrin.
- Corellon helped them on many occasions to do great feats of magic that have caused tremendous collateral damage (most notably the Sundering, magic during the Crown Wars, the descent, etc...).
- After the Sundering, magic throughout the world was less then it used to be.
- After a time, only places protected by Corellon could be used to cast high magic.
Ok, there is more, but I have to get stuff done and see my kids off to school...
So, long story short (I'll add to the list and explain in detail later);
Corellon did what he wanted when it came to protecting his children. After the Sundering, Mystra said no more of that crap, and restricted the flow of high magic to certain places.
Corellon, being good and seeing the reason for it, was ok with it and told the people. However, in cutting off the flow of elven magic, it also (along with the Sundering maybe?) made the Feywild 'out of sync' with Toril.
Corellon was content to live with things as they were, but when he saw what would happen, he knew that it would be better for the Tel'Quessir if she died and magic flowed unrestrained once again.
With the end of the Retreat, the reclaiming of elven lands on Fearun and the greater threats of the surrounding lands, he saw his chance to give back to his children their birthright.
With the death of Mystra, elves got;
- A reconnection to the Feywild.
- Evermeet away from the mortal toils that have plagued it in recent years.
- Unrestricted high magic throughout the world.
- Stronger connection to the magic inside themselves.
- Most were unharmed by the Spellplague (cities with Mythals survived much better off then most other realms).
- More to come....
Anyways, before I shove off here, I'd like to know your thoughts on this.
Now, don't get me wrong, I know Corellon is a good deity and would not condone the death of the GoM.
That said, I can't see were he, or the whole of the Tel'Quessir, really got shafted by what happened.
(A) Corellon Larethian and Mystra were allies, and being a CG deity when she died, that doesn't lend itself to betraying friends.
(B) Elven High Magic was retconed to not have any particular relation to geographic location, such as being on Evermeet, or in the proximity of the Tree of Souls. As such, there wouldn't be an kind of anger towards Mystra in Elven High Magic only being "accessible" in certain places. The most recent story is that it can be used anywhere, by those Elves strong enough to use it (Epic Wizards).
(C) After Mystra's death, the Spellplague caused random chaos. There is no way that Corellon Larethian could have foreseen that her death could cause repercussions among the planes, doing whatever it did to the Plane of Faerie- nothing like that happened the previous times Mystra was killed, so why would Corellon Larethian expect something like that to happen this most recent time?
(D) Though he wouldn't particularly foresee this, or be particularly miffed, what does Corellon Larethian get for having Evermeet removed from the Prime Material Plane? He gets his Chosen killed (presumably, in Queen Amlauril), and a place that he had a hand in creating on Faerûn as a homeland for Elves on Faerûn moved, undermining the work he and other deities/mortals put into creating/protecting the island-nation.
(E) The Plane of Faerie was always "out of sync" with Prime Material Plane. There aren't any actual definitions to define just exactly what "closer", "further", "in sync" and "out of sync", but since Forgotten Realms canon has mentioned the Plane of Faerie (it's first mention in -28,000 DR) it seems to have worked the same way it always has worked. So, again, presuming that he foresaw something, nothing is particularly being gained here- not to the degree that he'd betray an ally over.
-With the death of Mystra, he (and Elves) don't particularly gain anything, nor do they particularly lose anything, demonstrating there'd be little intent for Corellon Larethian to have killed Mystra, plotted to kill Mystra, aided in some way those who actually killed Mystra, or wanted Mystra dead. If anything, he'd have more to lose, being that her death would likely strengthen Shar, a deity who Corellon Larethian opposed, in that her Shadow Weave has been known to corrupt Elves here and there who utilize it.
Edit: Also, though nothing is ever explained, a great slew of members of the Seldarine either totally disappeared, or lost power, and now exist as Exarches. That's another thing that doesn't benefit Corellon Larethian in the situation.
Let's face facts. All elves are evil at heart. Let's not pretend that Corellon wasn't happy about this outcome. :P
, so if any divinations were heard by the Seldarine it must have come from Selune's voice. But might she have forseen Mystra's demise and the resulting chaos and never told? Unlikely.A little collateral damage from casting some uncontrollable epic spells is a minor evil anyways. And did those spells really drain the weave on a global level? I thought the elven expertise with high magic manipulations was such that it preserved the weave and tapped some energy from Correllon and the collective magic in the casting elves to conserve the weaves depletions, unlike epic and ancient 10th, 11th and 12th level magic?
Anyways, the thing with Exarchs... it's a classification. Lesser gods and Demigods are known as Exarchs. Middle powered gods are gods. The rest are greater gods.
Aside from that, I don't recall the Seldarine losing anyone due to the Spellplague. Where is that information?
I know that some were found to be aspects of other gods or primordials, but that had nothing to do with the Spellplague.
He's been jealous of Mystra forever, and has constantly been working behind her back to take-control of Toril (and rid it of all the non-Elven 'vermin').
Corellon HATES anyone who doesn't worship him - thats a canon fact. Just look at the Dark Elves!
He didn't punish the Vyshaantar Elves for obliterrating an entire Elven Kingdom (because they worshipped him), and yet he cursed an entire sub-race (some of whom were completely innocent) to a life 'burrowing into the dirt' and cannibalism (read 1e's DotU).
Corellon is the very definition of a narcissist, and he is also very much an Elven-Supremacist, and Genocidal maniac (Jhaamdath).
Quite possibly the evilest and most insane god in creation, as far as I'm concerned.
Get past the lies and you'll find the pure win that is Corellon and his chosen people.
YOU do the math. :P
Corellon is a switch-hitter.
Hmmmm.... Pointy Ears... those eyes....
I'm thinking some definite fiendish connections there.
I say we petition LK to add Corellon to the list of FR's Demons. :P
Hmmmm... perhaps Corellon had something to do with the restoration of the Imaskari, just to destroy Thoth's power-base?
Will his perfidy never end?
Well, there was Thoth, but he is mysterious absent from the Realms now as well.
Hmmmm... perhaps Corellon had something to do with the restoration of the Imaskari, just to destroy Thoth's power-base?
Will his perfidy never end?
Isis, and technically Set, as well... There's just no end to his bloodlust and madness it seems...
I am not on elf hate either. any change in them in FR is a change for the better IMO though. I am not so big on their status in FR. Alot of the D&D elf hate might have come from all of those racist sun elf portrayals in the novels.
I'm not trying to suggest that he had a hand in her downfall... rather, I think he might have learned of it, decided it was in his peoples best interests to let fate handle it, and moved to make sure that his children got the long end of the stick.
-If he learned of it before it happened, I can see political entanglements staying his hand from taking any kind of action, but I don't see what you are suggesting as his motive- again, even if you want to classify everything that has happened as good for Elvenkind (which I disagree a great deal with, as illustrated in my first post), it's still not the nature of a 'Good', going by the D&D rules, person/entity to do that. He has "backed up" Mystra in the past, and evidence doesn't really suggest any particular reasons why he wouldn't this time.
Anyways, the thing with Exarchs... it's a classification. Lesser gods and Demigods are known as Exarchs. Middle powered gods are gods. The rest are greater gods.
-Angharradh used to be a Greater deity (DD). Now she is a middle powered deity (FRCG). Deep Sashelas used to be an Intermediate deity. Now he is an Exarch. Erevan Ilesere used to be an Intermediate deity, and is now an Exarch. Labelas Enoreth used to be an Intermediate deity, and is now an Exarch. Solonar Thelandira used to be an Intermediate deity, and is now an Exarch. So, that's one Greater deity who was downshifted into an Intermediate Deity (3e)/Deity (4e), and four Intermediate deities who were downshifted into Lesser Deity (3e)/Exarches (4e).
Aside from that, I don't recall the Seldarine losing anyone due to the Spellplague. Where is that information?
I know that some were found to be aspects of other gods or primordials, but that had nothing to do with the Spellplague.
-Rillifane Rallathil (an Intermediate deity, for whatever it's worth, tying that to the above discussion) is MIA.
Corellon HATES anyone who doesn't worship him - thats a canon fact. Just look at the Dark Elves!
-Corellon Larethian had, and has, Dark Elven/Drow worshipers (Demihuman Deities). If he hated the race, like Shevarash does, he would not allow them entrance into his clergy, or grant them their spells.
He didn't punish the Vyshaantar Elves for obliterrating an entire Elven Kingdom (because they worshipped him), and yet he cursed an entire sub-race (some of whom were completely innocent) to a life 'burrowing into the dirt' and cannibalism (read 1e's DotU).
-In -9,200 DR, the Elven Court judged the Vyshaanti to have been the root cause of the Crown Wars, and condemned all Vyshaanti to death for crimes against Elvenkind. Corellon Larethian, along with other members of the Seldarine, were known to have "visited" the Elven Court on occasion, and priests and priestesses of members of the Seldarine- of which Corellon Larethian is an obvious member- stood against the Vyshaan in the Fifth Crown War.
Here are some highlights when the Elves were first reported to have moved into Myth Drannor:
"There are no Elvish infidels in or around Myth Drannor. Never!"
"The Elves, they always depend on a method what I call ... stupid, silly. All I ask is check yourself. Do not in fact repeat their lies."
"The Elvish press is all about lies! All they tell is lies, lies and more lies!"
"Lying is forbidden in the Dalelands. The Council will tolerate nothing but truthfulness as they are men and women of great honor and integrity. Everyone is encouraged to speak freely of the truths evidenced in their eyes and hearts."
Here are some highlights from when the Council finally admitted that the Elves have taken Myth Drannor and are returning in large numbers:
"Our initial assessment is that they will all die."
"No I am not scared, and neither should you be!"
"Be assured. The Dalelands are safe, protected."
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they do not even control themselves!"
"We are not afraid of the Elves. The Gods have condemned them. They are stupid. They are stupid" (dramatic pause) "and they are condemned."
"I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide behind the walls of Myth Drannor. We will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly."
"I can assure you that those villains will recognize, will discover in appropriate time in the future how stupid they are and how they are pretending things which have never taken place."
"I have detailed information about the situation... which completely proves that what they allege are illusions... they lie every day."
Here are some highlights from when the Dalelands came under siege by Myth Drannor:
"Now even the Elvish command is under siege. We are hitting them from the north, east, south and west. We chase them here and they chase us there. But at the end we are the people who are laying siege to them. And it is not them who are besieging us."
"They're coming to surrender."
"Let the Elvish infidels bask in their illusion."
"I triple guarantee you, there are no Elvish soldiers in the Dalelands."
"We have given them a sour taste."
"They are most welcome. We will butcher them."
" We are in control. They are in a state of hysteria. Losers, they think that by killing civilians and trying to distort the feelings of the people they will win. I think they will not win, those bastards."
"Those Elvish cowards have no morals. They have no shame about lying."
"They're not even within 100 miles of the Dalelands. They are not in any place. They hold no place in the world. This is an illusion...they are trying to sell to others an illusion."
"We will kill them all......most of them."
"They are like a snake and we are going to cut it to pieces."
"They do not even have control over themselves! Do not believe them!"
"I will like to clarify a simple fact here: How can you lay siege to all the Dalelands? Who is really under siege now? Battledale cannot be besieged. Daggerdale cannot be besieged. Harrowdale cannot be besieged. Shadowdale cannot be besieged. We cannot be besieged. Nothing can be besieged."
"They are trapped in Shadowdale. They are trapped near Harrowdale. They are trapped near Daggerdale. They are trapped everywhere."
"They are nowhere near here. They are lost in the forest. They cannot read a compass. They are retarded."
Here are some highlights from the press conference given as the Elvish forces stand outside the building:
"They are not here. They are not in control of anything. I tell you this. It is all a lie. They lie. It is an illusion." (Spoken as if he had Jedi mind powers.) "You do not believe them."
"Our estimates are that none of them will come out alive unless they surrender to us quickly."
"We made them drink poison last night and the Council's soldiers and its great forces gave the Elves a lesson which will not be forgotten by history. Truly."
"We're giving them a real lesson today. Heavy doesn't accurately describe the level of casualties we have inflicted."
"Today I have visited the whole Dalelands, no invaders found. You go and see how we have ousted them from the Dalelands. They are crying outside and waiting to receive swords. They will be killed shortly."
"We have destroyed their shovels - we have driven them back."
Unfortunately, the conference was abruptly ended here according to the transcript as Elvish forces had successfully conquered all of the Dalelands. As the Public Relations Minister was dragged from the room, he declared it was all an illusion.
I, however, must whap you with a rolled-up newspaper. :P
Just acknowledge that Corellon is the best god and all will be well.
It's the old, "Corellon is good... I, however, am not... now I must engage in genocide." (*cough* Jhaamdath *cough*)
:P
See, there is another example of abuse.
It's the old, "Corellon is good... I, however, am not... now I must engage in genocide." (*cough* Jhaamdath *cough*)
:P
you sir, are a good example of a Tyrant.
must be a follower of mum-ra the ever living or his twisted cousin Dung-ra the ever pooping
Anyways, on a side note, Eladrin and Elves are not racist. At least not as a whole. I agree that many novels put Sun elves in a bad light, but, as of now, the only know bigots among elves/eladrin are the Eldreth Veluuthra and the Moon elf in Rich Baker's new novels (although that is more of a general disdain for humans and a absolute hatred for Geran Hulmaster).
I would say the general view of humanity has changed for the eladrin/elves since the return.
Hmm, on another note; Josidiah Starym, was there any information (aside from his disappearing, about what happened to him?
I am (finally) getting a chance to play a PC, and need to know what happened to him (I want my PC to tie into his history in some fashion).
And I wouldn't need to whap any of you if you didn't insist on such terrible horrible blasphemy against our beloved Corellon.
You're all just in denial of Corellon's awesomeness and goodness and perfection. Just drink the metaphorical pretty azure kool-aid and join our side. We have hot elven chicks.
Never. Trust. An. Elf. :P
----
On a more serious note, I am really curious about the geopolitical relations between Cormyr, the Dalelands and Myth Drannor.
Even though in 4E there does not seem to be any contention... I find that highly unrealistic and unlikely. Just imagine how we'd react if suddenly the Native American population in the United States exploded, and they all got together and decided to "claim" unused land in one of the states... and proclaim themselves a sovereign nation. (Or maybe a more apt analogy would be the British sending their military over to establish a colony in an unoccupied part of one of our states. Their reasoning: "Our nation used to control this land.")
That is essentially what the Elves have done. They've returned to their ancestral lands and reclaimed Myth Drannor. There has to be more than a few of them who are like, "Why are all these humans around? This is my father and grandfather's land."
A major problem for many elves is their long lifespan. Imagine leaving your home to visit far away relatives for a month and then returning home to find it occupied. I mean like, literally people living in your house. When you try and find out what is going on, they basically tell you, "Oh, you left. It's ours now."
That is effectively what it is like from the perspective of many elves, I'd imagine.
Then on the human side of things you've got this powerful army literally setting up next door... whose ancestral lands you currently occupy...
There is definite room for conflict here, I think. Although, canonically it seems WotC designers took the cheap and boring way out: Basically, because they consider most of the people (the humans and the elves) to be good aligned that they magically just get along. It's just magic.
...
It says in the FRCG that there is contention between Cormyr, the Dales and Myth Drannor. It mostly comes from the Dales fearing Imperialistic advances from Cormyr, though, not from the elves.
The reaffirmation of the Dales Compact most assuredly helped to ease into having the fey folk back in greater numbers. But even so, I imagine that there is some unrest with the issue still.
Although, with Sembia (and their puppet master) on their borders, it isn't hard to see why that would take a backseat to other concerns.
As to the elves returning and seeing their lands despoiled, a great example of that is a short story by Rich Baker, in The Last Mythal Anthology: Realms of the Elves.
It's called The Bladesinger's Lession... awesome story, btw.
As to elves being put in a bad light by novels, if folks can put other groups/individuals into a bad light because of how they are portrayed by novels, elves are fair game as well. :P ;)
I'd tend towards Meldread's view, that there's got to be a lot of tension in that particular region of Faerun... I could see the Shades offering a certain incentive for peace, given the threat they pose along with Sembia, but once that threat has passed, I'd suspect the area is going to explode quite nicely.
Have the Dales assemble a military force, allow the Sembian military march on and lay siege to Myth Drannor. Let the Dalelanders assist them. With Myth Drannor under siege by the Netherese, Sembians and Dalelanders, they'd have to reach out... and the only nation nearby would be Cormyr.
However, that is easily anticipated. The Dalelands can cut a deal with Cormyr before hand. Ensure that their path to Myth Drannor is "clear" from any resistance. The Shades would think that Cormyr is marching to the defense of Myth Drannor... and yet...
Once it is clear that the scales have shifted one way or another, Cormyr swoops in to assault the Netherese and Sembian forces. They'd be cut off from escape: caught between Myth Drannor and another army.
However, what would be worse is that the Dalelanders would turn on them. Weakened from taking the bulk of the losses against Myth Drannor, they'd quickly fall... and then the Dalelanders and Cormyrian's would finish off the Elves, assuming they're still a threat.
Thus, they would have successfully killed two birds with one stone. With Sembian vulnerable after such a slaughter, the Cormyrian forces could then turn their imperialistic ambitions to Sembia. Which, of course, allows the Dalelands to escape the brunt of the wrath surely coming from the Netherese.
I doubt such an event is plausible, due to the herculean effort to arrange it and ensure it went off without a hitch (one problem and it all falls a part). As well, of course, all sides distrust each other to varying degrees. However, it is amusing to think about.
With the death of Mystra, elves got;
- Most were unharmed by the Spellplague (cities with Mythals survived much better off then most other realms).
I wouldn't list that as a direct benefit of Mystra's death. It's more like a fortunate circumstance--after all, there wouldn't have been a Spellplague to worry about if Mystra didn't die.
Now, don't get me wrong, I know Corellon is a good deity and would not condone the death of the GoM.
That said, I can't see were he, or the whole of the Tel'Quessir, really got shafted by what happened.
I can't see that either. However, if we accept that Corellon is a good deity, and ally of Mystra and would not condone her death, doesn't that mean the answer to the question posed in the title is "no?" It's possible to benefit from an event that you didn't actually want to occur, through sheer circumstance (no devious plotting necessary).
I also agree with the facts LK set out in his first post.
Corellon: "Okay... I'm onboard. I'll deliver 'my people' to a better place..."
Bane: "And I will restore order to the humans, after the chaos..."
Shar:"Then it is agreed? Good... now who shalll we blame it all on?"
Bane:"I vote for Cyric!"
Shar:"He has proven useful to me, but I suppose we do need a scapegoat"
Corellon:"I do not care either way... so long as it isn't one of the seldarine."
Bane:"I'm surprised you didn't suggest Lolth."
Corellon: "No... she and I are on the same page these days. She is removing all the other 'Dark Seldarine', driving all the evil Drow to her again, and all the good ones back to my fold... as it should be."
Shar:"Its a shame you and I are usually at odds, Corellon... you do work in such deliciously subtle ways..."
Corellon: "Now remember, after it all goes down, I'll have to publicaly admonish Shar, and help apprehend the miscreant Cyric."
Bane: "Good idea... I'll go along with that as well... I'd love to have a hand in throwing the little turd in prison."
Shar:"So you will both denounce me? Fine... I wouldn't have it any other way."
Corellon would have no need to talk to such rabble!
Oh ye of little faith.
Corellon would never associate with such vermin, even if he did want Mystra dead, which he didn't. He/she/it is better than that.
And even if he did... Bah, he'd be able to take her down himself.
*evil mirror universe version of N_C with goatee appears* Yeah, see that avatar on this post? What you can't see in the picture because it's cropped is the stick he's pwning Mystra with. And yeah, Lolth's just alive so he could get his annoying kids killed by her and have her take the blame, it's her turn next. :D
And knowing Wotc Corellon will prob just be an aspect of Asmodeus in 5e or Vice Versa.
What would keep Imperial Cormyr from "Restoring Order" in the Dales. Kill 3 birds with one stone.
Because trying to occupy the Dales, which are likely to sprout terrorist rebels isn't wise when you still have to prevent a resurgent Netheril... and when you have to conquer and occupy Sembia while it's still weak.
After they've defeated and crushed the Netherese Empire, and stabilized conquered Sembia? Absolutely.
Besides, Dalelanders make useful allies in that battle... especially when they're in the front. :P
And knowing Wotc Corellon will prob just be an aspect of Asmodeus in 5e or Vice Versa.
Now that's scarey...
I was thinking that same exact thing when I wrote that...
Corellon as Asmodeus... if it weren't for the alignment problem (on the L/C axis - they are both obviosuly evil :P ), I could actually see that. If Asmodeus truly was Ahriman, that would make him an Elder God originally, which would fit for Corellon (seeing as he has a presence in almost every prime world with Elves).
Corellon is Ahriman's 'Elven Aspect', and Asmodeus is his Fiendish one.
Works for me. :D
Another thing I noted when I was writing that; Thoth has a female aspect as well... which made me wonder if Thoth was also just a Mulan aspect of Corellon (the whole androgynous thing).
Another thing about the whole Jhaamdath Holocaust - note that they chose to obliterste a group that would be able to see into Elven minds and know what they REALLY thought of everyone else.
It wasn't about trees... it was about keeping the Elves nasty little secrets to themselves.
I probably could have made Bush look like a genius... well... semi-intelligent, anyway. :P
I have reversed all of this in another thread - the one I created about 'Morbid', which has mutated into a discussion about the cosmos.
In that, I go back to painting Mystra as a control-freak, and the other gods (Corellon especially) being at the forefront of taking her down a notch.
I don't really go back and forth with my ideas - I have always imagined gods being very enigmatic, and none of them are truly good or truly evil - they are just about themselves and their own power-bases. How they appear to mortals is irrelevant, and how one group perceives them might be the exact opposite of how another does.
A deity such as Corellon is ancient, and would be more about maintaining the balance (and thus playing both extremes against the middle).
...
-Muhammad al-Sahhaf was a very entertaining individual.
Hmm, on another note; Josidiah Starym, was there any information (aside from his disappearing, about what happened to him?
I am (finally) getting a chance to play a PC, and need to know what happened to him (I want my PC to tie into his history in some fashion).
-Steve Schend has painted an unofficial picture of him being engulfed after his "suicide" at the Speculum, and taken to a demiplane, where he sits and waits as a Baelnorn of sorts, protecting the Artblade until a worthy ruler comes to claim it, possibly in the same place where the Srinshee has been resting all these years.
...
-Muhammad al-Sahhaf was a very entertaining individual.
Hmm, on another note; Josidiah Starym, was there any information (aside from his disappearing, about what happened to him?
I am (finally) getting a chance to play a PC, and need to know what happened to him (I want my PC to tie into his history in some fashion).
-Steve Schend has painted an unofficial picture of him being engulfed after his "suicide" at the Speculum, and taken to a demiplane, where he sits and waits as a Baelnorn of sorts, protecting the Artblade until a worthy ruler comes to claim it, possibly in the same place where the Srinshee has been resting all these years.
-Muhammad al-Sahhaf was a very entertaining individual.
Yes, Baghdad Bob was great. :P
I would totally base a NPC off of him.
(The City is on fire.) "There is no fire. It is an illusion!"
"Citizens are urged to not take up arms, the swords are booby trapped."
Now that's scarey...
I was thinking that same exact thing when I wrote that...
Corellon as Asmodeus... if it weren't for the alignment problem (on the L/C axis - they are both obviosuly evil :P ), I could actually see that. If Asmodeus truly was Ahriman, that would make him an Elder God originally, which would fit for Corellon (seeing as he has a presence in almost every prime world with Elves).
Corellon is Ahriman's 'Elven Aspect', and Asmodeus is his Fiendish one.
Works for me. :D
Or better yet MT, We will see Asmodeus devour Corellon as he did Azuth.
I can just picture the family dinner now Asmodeus letting little mephistopheles carve up the rosted Corellon to give all the other little devils a piece while singing carols and having a gosh golly good time.Or better yet MT, We will see Asmodeus devour Corellon as he did Azuth.
That made me think of Hannibal Specter from Silence of the Lambs.
Sfdragon: What's homegrown?
Cormodleus - Evil god of Elven Tyranny and dark (High) Magics.
Perfect for my "Graz'zt Roots" Campaign.
I actually picture the old Tom Petty Video - the ending is a classic. Now take that final scene and combine it with the cover of For Duty & Deity. :D
That made me think of Hannibal Specter from Silence of the Lambs.
Hannibal Lector. ;)
Although yours could be the FR version (it sounds cool enough).
And it renews my hatred of those damnable elves.
'Homegrown', as in "keep it to ourselves", and not allow any of that to become canon.
Cormodleus - Evil god of Elven Tyranny and dark (High) Magics.
Perfect for my "Graz'zt Roots" Campaign.
...
...Nope, I tried to hold my tongue, but I can't...
Show
BADWRONGFUN!
BADWRONGFUN!
C'mon, you gotta admit that it is PLAUSIBLE.
C'mon, you gotta admit that it is PLAUSIBLE.
Ummm, yeah... sure... it's about as plausible as Britney Spears being mentally stable.
That must be some sort of joke that's being pulled on you.
but she's a slave for you....
-According to this random pop-up message I got, not only is she mentally stable, but she also has an IQ of 124.
I found that hard to believe, especially since the same pop-up said Jennifer Aniston had something like 134.
She wasn't smart enough to hold onto Brad Pitt. :P
Edit: However, none of that would cause me to kick either one out of my bed. ;)
One wonders if there's an equivalent sort of cultural phenomenon going on in Faerun at any point though... just to swing it back to the Realms a bit.
...
Nope, I tried to hold my tongue, but I can't...Show
BADWRONGFUN!
and we're getting a few laughs, raised eyebrows and gags... I have done my job.
...but...
Show
Corellon owns!
Corellon owns!
I would kick both out myself... especially Aniston... just ick.
I stand corrected... I'd kick them out of my bed... when I was finished. ;)
I never said I'd keep them around.
Brittney I might invite back, but Jen... I'd definately take a long shower after that...
Never said I was a fan of either, but I'm also not the type to let a warm body go to waste. :P
Hell... I wouldn't kick Oprah out of my bed.
Well... if the vileness, of this blasphemous thread, is being of use to someone...
and we're getting a few laughs, raised eyebrows and gags... I have done my job.Show
Corellon owns!
I found that hard to believe, especially since the same pop-up said Jennifer Aniston had something like 134.
She wasn't smart enough to hold onto Brad Pitt. :P
Edit: However, none of that would cause me to kick either one out of my bed. ;)
I stand corrected... I'd kick them out of my bed... when I was finished. ;)
I never said I'd keep them around.
Brittney I might invite back, but Jen... I'd definately take a long shower after that...
Never said I was a fan of either, but I'm also not the type to let a warm body go to waste. :P
Hell... I wouldn't kick Oprah out of my bed.
Well everywhere Drizzty goes he causes an uproar. Especially when he covers Britney's"One more time" in school girl outfit with Jarlaxle, Entreri, and Wulfgar among the back-up dancers :P
So...I take it that Thibbledorf Pwent and the Gutbuster Brigade are the Roadies? :P
P.S. Bruenor would be the band manager right? ;)
And Cattie-Brie is the manager, Bruenor would be the trustee in Drizzt's conservatorship or Concervatatership. Hell... I wouldn't kick Oprah out of my bed.
Ha. Have you seen Oprah without make-up?
Nooo....Pwent and the Gutbusters are responsible for the mosh pit starting.
What a mosh pit that would be.
Wouldn't Brie be a groupie?
But per LK's request, I honestly don't think Corellon would have anything to do with Mystra's assassination because when it came out that he did(and it always comes out) the backlash against his precious demons...ooops I mean supremistical elves would be to great a cost. Besides he's supposed to revere life isn't he.
Personally I think it's more interesting talking about bit-bit than some boring old deity
;)Ha. Have you seen Oprah without make-up?
As I said, a warm body is a warm body. As long as they are still breathing, I'm game. :D
I might have to chew my own arm off to escape the next morning, but it wouldn't stop me 'in the moment'.
And all of this explanation because I said I'd be wiling to...have relations... with two woman I really don't like..
What does liking anyone have to do with a very basic need? :P
Which is the whole way the Drow culture works - they don't like each other, but they are very... sensual... people, and understand both their physical needs and the need to procreate.
;)
-Corellon Larethian can be summed up with the phrase "sex on a stick".
Finally someone speaks the truth. Preach it, brother! :D
This blasphemous, blasphemous thread however shall prove to be quite useful in the future. No one expects the Elven Inquisition!
But on a serious note, as has been said, Corellon had no reason to off Mystra, and it wouldn't reflect well on him/her/it or his/her/its elven children if he/she/it were responsible.
Besides, Corellon is already unspeakably awesome and has no need to waste his/her/its time dealing with trite, boring human gods.
DMC: Pfft, Corellon is infinitely more interesting than tired old skanks. Just think of all the amusing scandals you can have with someone who's male, female, both and neither. I mean, come on. He could potentially be sleeping with *anyone*.
This thread has now given me the mental image of Corellon dressed like Britney Spears and singing 'Oops I Did It Again', however, and for that the newspaper must come back out and the thwackings resume.
Which makes LK's comments on her/his/its sex appeal... potentially revealing? Freudian slip maybe? Just who's stick was he referring to there... :evillaugh
He was actually referring to Corellon's 'magic sword', of course. ;)
And nah, Orlando Bloom isn't pretty enough to play Corellon. Get the guy who played Figwit instead. And it's probably for the best that I've never heard of the show you're making a joke with.
Remind anyone of a certain deity pertaining to this thread? 
Nai: The show is originally called the "United States of Tara" and I have a dark sense of humor. ;)
Who is a character that is evil but doesn't realize he's evil but oh so handsome.....
But nobody's even mentioned that twerp Shevarash in this thread yet...
And Corellon doesn't have multiple personalities, just multiple genders. :D
And he/she/it isn't evil. :< Someday all of you blasphemous unbelievers will see the true glory and light of Corellon, and you will repent the evil, vile ways in which you have allowed yourselves to live up until now. Convert now and avoid trouble in the future, and we'll even throw in free lessons in how to speak the glorious elven language so that you may pray to your new god properly instead of in your barking, grating inferior human speech.
He doesn't need to be more feyish, he needs to be revealed for the demonic monster that he is... :P
'You see, yet you do not understand...'
You will come to know the truth soon enough...
Besides ImO or IMI(in my Ignorance) isn't "Nuetral" technically the same thing as unaligned? I mean they both give you the freedom to be indifferent right?
Regardless, Corellon is good, not unaligned.
Besides ImO or IMI(in my Ignorance) isn't "Nuetral" technically the same thing as unaligned? I mean they both give you the freedom to be indifferent right?
-More or less. 'Neutral' implies that the individual in question has a moral code that stresses that they stay balanced, in terms of law and chaos, good and evil, while 'Unaligned' implies that the individual in question does not have a specific moral code.
Coincidence? I think not...
;) :P
And here I thought it was just plain Unaligned these days...
Which to me implies he's chaotic neutral (in the old rules.)
I he/she/it can 'swing both ways' (both figuratively and literally), then he is by definition 'chaotic'
At least, in my book.
The new design has turned 'Ambiguity' into a plus.
Go figure.
It needs to be stickied.
Five stars.
but lets get our best man on it.
calling Maxwell smart.......
Most of the worst ones best suited to genocidal slaughter are elven in origin... that should tell you something right there... :P
I really like the idea of Corellon as the new neutral or Chaotic Neutral god of magic. Not that he is in charge of the weave or anything. He just have more fundamental knowledge of all types of magic (divine, primal, arcane, shadow ext.) and is a major, major player in the current era.
He's not neutral in the Realms, although he is in the "core setting."
He's not neutral in the Realms, although he is in the "core setting."
I gotcha, I just like the idea overall. I think he should have had an alignment shift in FR after the Plague, possibly due to the fact he knew of the coming events and did nothing. Why? Because the Plague caused the Feywild to reach out and effect Faerun. Now many elves have regained the heritage they lost years ago when they settled on Toril. Evermeet is safer than it has ever been, and Myth Drannor is a major player in Faerun again. The Myth Drannor thing was going to happen no matter what but the other Fey stuff is a big boon for elvenkind.
So would it be evil if Corellon let Mystra die even though he might have forseen that her continued existance was going to cause a worse calamity? It is not really good but again that may be a reason for an alignment shift. In this scenario I have Savras seeing the calamity that Mystra would cause and letting Corellon in on the secret. He (Savras) also would have seen that Mystra's death would cause Azuth's death and a former rival would be eliminated. That may be seen as evil, or just a byproduct of "saving the future". ;)
The tyrant of magic. That is undeniable - she claimed total and complete control over magic, relegating all other deities of magic as underlings (including Corellon, Thoth, Isis, etc...) because she had final say over anything concerning magic, even when it involved non-humans.
Now, we know from older lore - Pluma Magic in 2e, Shadow-Weave in 3e - that she certainly DID NOT have total control over all magic, which means that this was just propaganda spread by her church. Most of her clergy may not have know the truth, and believed the BS, but the higher-ups and her Chosen had to have known the truth.
Mystra was only the goddess of Arcane Magic, and used her tyrannical control of the Weave to maintain her stranglehold on Faerûn.
Magisters killed each other for the job.
Thayans and Zhents worshipped her.
She forced Elminster to train Sammaster, despite his reservations.
She told the Simbul not to kill any more Red Wizards, OR ELSE.
She allowed Insane Halaster to continue ruling Undermountain.
She had given Larloch some sort of 'secret purpose'.
Think about all of that - there was NO WAY she was good. She was neutral at best. Everything she did was to further her own portfolio and power-base.
Just like any other god.
Deities don't love their followers - they barely even respect them most of the time. They use them up like power-batteries and thats about the extent of the relationship.
Read Prayers from the Faithful if you want a good eye-opener of how the devout are 'blessed'.
If a god notices you... RUN! Run as far as you can, to another plane if possible....
Secondly, she was neutral when all those things happened. She was officially LN at the time, and recall that the method by which the title of Magister changed hands altered under Midnight's tenure. As to Thayans and Zhents worshipping her... I would tend to doubt that for 95% of them. Lip service, maybe... actual earnest worship is a lot different than acknowledgment while mostly serving one's self or another deity entirely.
Everything else I agree with though for the most part... ;)
bring back Mystryl the true goddess of magic.
Wee Jas was Lawful Neutral, and held the titles -
The Ruby Sorceress, the Dark-Eyed Lady, the Witch Goddess, the Stern Lady, the Taker, the Lady of Book and Bone
Not about good or evil, but rather about total control of Magic. The whole 'death aspect' makes her very creepy as well. Here's her symbol -
And that was Mystra's like-minded best friend, according to Hallowed ground. Can you honestly see a 'goodly' god hangin' out with someone with THAT symbol?
It was all about control, and he who controls the magic controls the world....
Since Weave magic can affect other forms of magic that does not mean that she had control of those other forms of magic. Weave stuff could affect Shadow Weave Magic but Shar controlled Shadow Magic at the end of the day.
People (IMO) started to hate Mystra after the TOT and with her portrayal in the novels. It seemed as if a human had become a god and never gained the Divine wisdom a god should have. She was an adventurer that was pretending to be a god. This is a shame but novels once again screwed the pooch for us gamer (IMO).
Evermeet is safer than it has ever been...
Are you sure about that? The Feywild is supposed to be full of nasty (and in some cases, anti-eladrin) creatures.
canonically, she was BFF with Wee Jas (GH).
Wee Jas was Lawful Neutral, and held the titles -
The Ruby Sorceress, the Dark-Eyed Lady, the Witch Goddess, the Stern Lady, the Taker, the Lady of Book and Bone
Not about good or evil, but rather about total control of Magic. The whole 'death aspect' makes her very creepy as well. Here's her symbol -
And that was Mystra's like-minded best friend, according to Hallowed ground. Can you honestly see a 'goodly' god hangin' out with someone with THAT symbol?
It was all about control, and he who controls the magic controls the world....
Wait a minute. What source calls Wee Jas Mystra's "like-minded best friend?" That's a quite a stretch from what I know the sources do say, which is that they are allies. You don't need to be friends with someone to be their ally.
Also, in any case you are guilty of the association fallacy (associating with Wee Jas doesn't mean you are the same type of being she is).
I'm purposely putting a 'spin' on the lore in order to achieve that desired result. BTW, read that bit in Hallowed Ground again (pg.167) - it specifically says that Wee Jas 'went off the deep-end' because "her one good friend in the cosmos passed on"
Thats sounds like a BFF to me. :P
Which is why Corellon, the good and awesome deity that he is, had to put a stop to such blatantly evil and oppressive governing of magic.
Precisely, Robin!
Just like Mystra, Corellon is neither good nor evil (all gods are neutral 'deep down'). Corellon is about furthering his portfolio, which includes magic and Elves - two things Mystra has conjointly been 'holding back'.
And besides, RW Mythology is full of instances wherein 'good' deities ally with 'evil' ones, either against another god (be it good or evil), or some powerful monster, or even against mortals on occassion.
Be it D&D or RW religions, deities have always been self-serving p***ks. ;)
Bottom line is, Mystra just had to go.
Bottom line is, Mystra just had to go.
You are starting to sound like a Wizards Staff member from around 15 months ago. :P
;)
Instead of leaving the setting mutilated and suffering, I would have just finished the job. ;)
Better a quick death, then a slow and painful one.
No, I'm MUCH worse then them.
Instead of leaving the setting mutilated and suffering, I would have just finished the job. ;)
Better a quick death, then a slow and painful one.
Let's try to avoid the pitfalls and EW's, ok...
Since this thread is merely an intellectual exercise into alternate ways to view Mytsra so as to allow Corellon to help in her downfall), I do not need to be accurate.
-Case. In. Point.
Let's try to avoid the pitfalls and EW's, ok...
Point taken.
I apologize.
Its easy to fall into that trap (sarcasm is considered an art-form here).
On Topic:
Anyway, anyone else want to come-up with lore that 'proves' (I use that word lightly) Mystra was the 'Tyrant of Magic'?
Then, she plotted to steal the shadow weave so she was the only dictator of magic in Fearun.
She cut off mortals from truly powerful magic and they had to do things her way or the highway...
sounds like a Tyrant to me.
;)
Except
Mystra
Wasn't
Goodly
Back
Then!!!!
:P
Mystra instructed Elminster to create the Harpers...
Ergo is she wasn't good, then she was trying to appear so... thus proving my points about her. She was mis-represnting herself, because she supported evil groups and Mages as well as good ones. The Harpers weren't created out of any love for 'goodness' on her part - she merely saw the rising power of certain evil cabals (after the disaster that was Athalantar), and created a counter for it.
She needed to maintain the status-quo... nothing more.
Midnight, being a follower (and not a priest) of Mystra bought-into the propaganda, and thought she was supposed to be a 'good deity'. In time, she would have learned. Of the three, Kelemvor was the only one who seems to have actually understood his purpose.
And no, she wasn't good. Nor was she trying to appear so. That depends on the Harpers being seen as 'goodly' types back then, which I doubt they were, and relies solely on a modern view of them being applied to the past history. I doubt it was anything other than maintaining the status-quo at the least, and at best making magic progress by creating a more positive, sharing attitude among mages, rather than one where knowledge of magic is held back and died with its creator. Is that a goodly thing to do... I'd say no in her case, just a smart thing to do.
As to her tyranny over magic, I see it more like an issue of regulation versus deregulation. Lots of folks scream that deregulation is the way to go, except that more often than not, it screws whatever its being applied to into the ground and people's greed and stupidity overcomes their common sense and creates a nightmare of a situation that could have been avoided had more restraint been shown. Regulation though, tends to have less damaging long term effects unless its done in a hysterical fashion, and in moderation tends to increase growth and productivity by making sure you don't get a monoculture that can't sustain itself, while ensuring that smaller things can grow in the shadow, creating more competition and greater advantages and opportunities for everyone. She still allowed very powerful magic to exist, just not to the excess that it did before, and put things to a level where sustainability and growth had a better chance of happening comparatively, despite being lower in immediate potential that damaged the very resource it was calling upon to make itself work, which is ultimately what those 10th + level spells were doing.
The new Mystra... yeah, she was kind of a moron at times, but was considerably better than Cyric. I'd agree though that Kelemvor made her look pretty bad in comparison, and was much better at being a deity than both Cyric and Mystra put together.
I have an aversion to Harpers that may be even worse then my aversion to Elves. The only thing I can't stand more then stupidly-portrayed 'bad guys' are self-righteous, "holier then though" types.
Anyhow, I got my information about the formation of the Harpers from The Annotated Elminster, which makes mention of the fact that Elminster was instructed by Mystra to get them started. perhaps he merely got the ball rolling, by giving this 'Lady Steel' you menton a push in the right direction.
Also, the book alludes to them being created for the 'furthering of magic', and NOT as 'do-gooders'. They were supposed to stop Mages who kept others from learning about the art (as what happened in Athalantar).
It was more of a 'Freedom' thing then a 'Good' thing, at least back then. Since most folks equate freedom with good, it's an easy leap to make. Because of the freedom angle, they have set their sites on slave-traders as well, which also puts them squarely on the 'good side'.
However, in Mystra's case at least, freedom has nothing to do with good. freedom leads to creativity and expermentation, which furthers her portfolio. If she happens to look good in the process, all the better.
Regulation vs Deregulation:
Once again, a matter of persepctive. Corellon believes that Elves should have high magic; I'm sure the folks of Jhaamdath and Miyeritar would disagree. The gods have found it useful to use the Weave as an 'automatic delivery system' for divine magic (I ran that by Ed, and he agreed with me). However, they traded that convenience for some of their control... which also furthered Mystra's control of Magic and allowed her to make the false claim that ALL magic was within her providence. Note that Shar (and probably Mask and Leira as well) used the Shadoweave as the conduit for their divine magic. They were smart enough not to allow Mystra total control.
Think of Mystra as an 'enlightened despot' - she wanted complete control over all magic because she thought it would be better for magic as a whole if she were. That is the 'trap' awaiting every tyrant. They may start-out thinking they are trying to do good, and that sacrifices are neccessary, but at what point does the dictator become a tyrant?
By wanting total control of magic, she inadvertantly became the very thing she fought hardest against - she denied beings the freedom to use magic not under her dominion. She became that which she despised - a person who hordes magic all to themselves.
So at the end of the day (or millenia, or whatever), she had to go. Ao gave her a second chance, by replacing her with Midnight, and Midnight tried to make some changes (she ordered the Simbul to leave the Red Wizards be), but it was not enough. By having her Chosen specifically work towards the destruction of the Shadoweave, she was working at odds to her own portfolio, and in the end, Ao must have agreed with Shar. She was guilty of over-stepping her bounds, and was therefore denied the ability to come back as she had before.
Aside from her few allies - who were also destroyed - I doubt very much the other 'goodly' gods shed a tear at her passing. They only locked-up Cyric because they were just looking for the excuse.
As to Mystra and Magic... that is rather what she is, being the godess of magic and all that. As to denying beings the freedom to use magic not under her control... how? If she can't control it, she can't really deny someone using it or not. Magic is her portfolio, not just the Weave, as is spells. I think we pretty much agree that gods have a limited view of the world outside of their portfolios when it comes down to it, so of course she wants to maintain control of her own portfolio, especially considering the likes of Bane, Talos, Shar, and others want to chip away at her control by 'claiming' bits and pieces of magic as being under their dominion. Up until recently, she had taken on all comers and triumphed, for the most part, presumably with Ao's approval.
When it comes down to it, every deity is a enlightened (or not in some cases) despot, and its hardly limited to Mystra in that respect. They have their portfolios, and they guard them jealously, do their best to preserve and preferrably expand them, and cultivate their influence within the world. Its kinda what they are and do... she's no different in that respect than any other deity out there, except she was more successful than most others. Were she really as despotic as you're claiming, she'd have never allowed Corellon to govern High Magic, Garl Glittergold (and Leira for a good long while!) to govern Illusion, Velsharoon to have any influence over Necromancy, or any of the other specialized magic deities out there. If anything, she was one of the more enlightened deities out there...
As to the Shadow Weave, whatever. It was a stupidly sloppy invention from the start that never should have been dumped from Birthright into the Realms. What worked in that (failed I might add) campaign setting wasn't necessarily going to port well over to the Realms... that was part of the beginning of the end for the Realms as far as I'm concerned.
Since this thread is merely an intellectual exercise into alternate ways to view Mytsra so as to allow Corellon to help in her downfall, I do not need to be accurate.
I don't agree, and I didn't get the impression that you were just musing about an alternate Mystra, either. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but I do think accuracy is important here.
I'm purposely putting a 'spin' on the lore in order to achieve that desired result. BTW, read that bit in Hallowed Ground again (pg.167) - it specifically says that Wee Jas 'went off the deep-end' because "her one good friend in the cosmos passed on"
Thats sounds like a BFF to me. :P
And I still have to call "association fallacy."
Stigger is right though. Mystra wasn't really "goodly" back then anyway.
I'm well-aware my take on Mystra is NOT the canon one. Like I said, I'm picking and choosing what facts I want in order to present an argument against her.
I basically ignored her IMG, so I could care less what she was really about, or if she was even killed or not. To be honest, I find the Spellplague itself a LOT more interesting then Mystra ever was. The only time there is any excitement is when Mystryl/Mystra dies. :P
I didn't wish her ill like some people... I just didn't bother with her. What happens in the canon Realms doesn't effect my version one iota, and most certainly not the other way around, either. In fact, I can thank 4e for eliminating the guilt I use to feel when I changed stuff.
Now it's practically mandatory.
Doesn't the Spellplague and Mystra's death give Corellon's elves the possibility for even more enemies? What I mean is that since(from what I read here on thes posts) magic is some much easier to use that almost (or all) everyone can learn spells. So with the elves predjudice against other races (not all but from what I read a good majority of them ) slights can be revenged easier now? If this is so then why would Corellon be apart of that?
What I mean is that since(from what I read here on thes posts) magic is some much easier to use that almost (or all) everyone can learn spells.
I haven't heard that learning and using magic within the setting is easier, necessarily--it just no longer uses the Weave.
The game mechanics behind magic *might* be easier for DMs/players to use (I don't know), but that doesn't reflect on what happens in-setting.