I'm a big fan of this whole new deity/primordial divide going on. It works for me, dunno why. I know that a lot of the Realms changes have made people....what's the phrase? Oh yeah. Foam wildly at the mouth and rant like rabies-addled squirrels (can squirrels rant?) about all the things wrong with it.
Now, I've got my fair share of gripes with the changes that WotC has put our beloved Realms through, but whatcha gonna do?
Alright, enough of the blathering, onto the point of the post. I know I loathe having to flip through a ton of different books to try and find the one source I need, so I compiled up a lil list of the primordials who have appeared in published works, along with the page number they appear on for ease of locating.
Primordials, alive and dead
Achazar, the Raging Flame male, fire (slumberous, Tarmalune) FRCS p216-217, DR 372 p48, 53-54
Akadi, the Queen of Air, female, air FRCS p66, 78-79
Alu Kahn Sang, the Wind of Destruction dust DR 347, IP
Alyolvoy, water DU 37
Arambar, Steelsky, male (killed) FRCS p200
Balcoth, the Groaning King male, ash and cinder (killed) MoP p70
Baron Bwimb, male ooze (dead) DR 353 p45
Bazim-Gorag, the Firebringer, male chance, chaos FRCS p78-79
Ben-Hadar, Squallbringer, The Valorous Tempest, Prince of Good male water DR 353 p43-45
Blazing Rorn the Fury, male fire, radiance FRCS p209, 242-245
?Borem of the Boiling Mud? FRCS p79
Bristia Pel, female fire (killed Chilimba and Ehkahk) The Inner Planes, DR 353 p43
Bwimb II, female ooze The Inner Planes, DR 353 p45
Castanamir, the Shattered Khan MoP p72
Chan, the Silent One, Glorious Zephyr, Princess of Good female air DR 353 p43, 46-47
Chilimba, magma The Inner Planes, DR 353 p43
Chourst, slaad lord
Crystalle, King of Minerals male minerals DR 174, DR 347, DR 353 p49, IP
Cryonax, Elemental Prince of Evil male cold
?Dendar, the Night Serpent? FRCS p79
Dur-baagal, killed by Auril DR 367 p61
Ehkahk, the Smoldering Duke male smoke IP, DR 353 p43, 47
Erek-Hus, King of Terror MM, p74
Gazra, the Shifting Emperor male ash DR 353 p50, IP
Grumbar, The Lord of Earth, male earth FRCS p66, 79
Hamnathuun, the Blood Lord, male wind MoP p76, 111
Heur-Ket, male thunder, lightning, storms (bound?) DR 371 p18, 20, 26, 29-31
Istishia, the Lord of Water, male water FRCS p66, 79
Imix, the Fire Lord, Elemental Prince of Evil male fire (alive) DR 347, DR 353, p47, 50, MoP p71
Karshimis, Despot of Shyr ice, cold FRCS p207
?Kezef, the Chaos Hound? FRCS p79
Kossuth, the Lord of Fire, male fire FRCS p66-67, 79
Mual-Tar, the Thunder Serpent thunder, storms, lightning (bound) DR 370 p25-34
Ogremoch, Elemental Prince of Evil, male earth DR 347, DR 353 p49
Olhydra, the Rain Queen, Elemental Princess of Evil, female water MoP p72
Rennbuu, male slaad lord color DR 353 p45
Shangar, the Uncrowned MoP p72
Solkara, the Crushing Wave, female water, cold? (bound) MoP p71
Ssendam, slaad lord
Sun Sing (vacuum) DR 347, IP, FC1
Sunnis, the True Stone, the Lode Mother, Princess of Good, female earth DR 353 p43, 47-49
Tabrach-Ti, Queen of Bronze, female earth? metal? (killed by Achra/Bane) DR 372, p26
Telos, fallen primordial FRCS p276
Ty-h'kadi, Prince of Thunder and Lightning, male storms lightning thunder DR 347, DR 353 p47
Vezzuvu, the Burning Mountain female, earth, fire (bound) MoP p70
Ubtao the Deceiver (dead?)
Unknown, (slumbering) in Eskorn FRCS p204, 207
Unknown 2 (presumed dead) in Gontal DR 366 p51-52
Uzrith, earth DU 37
Yan-C-Bin, Elemental Prince of Evil, male air DR 347, DR 353 p43
Ygorl, slaad lord
Zaaman Ruul, the Flame of Purity, Resilient Ember, Prince of Good, male fire DR 353 p43, 49-50
DR - Dragon
DU - Dungeon
FRCS - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
IP - The Inner Planes
MM - Monster Manual
MoP - Manual of the Planes
Now, Kezef, Dendar and Borem are mentioned as possible primordials, but I don't really jive with that. I just put 'em in for completeness sake.
Anyone got some to add??
Updated 5/28/09
Ubtao has become Ubtao the Deceiver, who betrayed the primordials and sided with the gods.
Got it. Added to the top thread.
I'm just noticing Kossuth seems to have a lot of company...
Also, Primordials can only be of Elemental, Psuedo-Elemental, and Para-Elemental types? Are other 'concepts' covered (considering we had such bizarre things in former lore as 'time Elementals').
I'm just asking, not trying to start something - I like the idea of the Primordials, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around them as presented.
So, unlike Gods, more then one Primordial can be 'of something'?
Primordials are more like living manifestations of the power of elemental nature, whether it's a storm, fire, water, or sheer chaos. Whereas the gods have roles and order, the primordials don't.
Also, Primordials can only be of Elemental, Psuedo-Elemental, and Para-Elemental types? Are other 'concepts' covered (considering we had such bizarre things in former lore as 'time Elementals').
Not sure yet. We haven't gotten a whole ton on primordials that represent more abstract concepts, but they could be out there.
Also, nyluenatha, you should add Telos to the list as a possibility for another primordial. He seems to fit that mold better than that of a deity, until we get some equivalent for beings that fall from the stars.
Also, Primordials can only be of Elemental, Psuedo-Elemental, and Para-Elemental types? Are other 'concepts' covered (considering we had such bizarre things in former lore as 'time Elementals').
As Mourn says, we have little on this topic as of yet. I touched on the existence of a couple somewhere or other in a discussion of the Elemental power source. Dendar embodies nightmares, from what I remember, and Rich Baker unofficially posits the existence of another embodying darkness in the following:
My speculation is that some primordial power of darkness slumbers in/beneath Lorosfyr-- perhaps bound or trapped there in the very creation of the world. Its dreams lend the uncanny stillness of the place the power to slowly madden mortals. But, as I said, that last bit isn't in canon anywhere, it's just my private theory.
It seems unclear at this point what specific angle the devs will take on the primordials, in core and in FR. As the list illustrates, though, they will probably go beyond a strict four-part earth/air/fire/water scheme and bring in a bit of abstraction.
Primordials are more like living manifestations of the power of elemental nature, whether it's a storm, fire, water, or sheer chaos. Whereas the gods have roles and order, the primordials don't.
That's a good way to describe it, I think. Of course, now it brings us to differentiating primordials from not only deities but also from primal spirits.
Thats how I was picturing it, but I wasn't sure.
Also, I think Shar should have been a Primordial - she would have made more sense that way, especially if there is supposedly a primordial of Darkness. I suppose that would have been too much of a retcon (because then Selune would also have to be a Primordial, and neither would be able to have worshippers).
Its just kind of confusing that you can have both a God(ess) of Darkness and a Primordial of Darkness... once again I see the lines being too blurred.
I liked how they wrote-up Erebus in that Dragon article awhile back - he'd make a cool Primordial. Come to think of it, I would rather have him switch with Shar - she seems far more chaotic in nature then he.
BTW - Thanx to the OP for making this list - lists are GOOD. :D
So yes, primordials can be more than elemental lords only. Their concepts should be able to be sustainable without civilisation though. Gods run the more philosiphical or social concepts, while the primordial entities govern stuff as simple as air, earth, water and fire. Keep in mind though that primordials also can represent complex concepts such as erosion, radiation, entropy, darkness, stasis, acceleration and dreams (ok that last one is hard to explain to be sustainable without civilisation but Dendar is the primordial entity of nightmares and dreams).
I'm definitely interested to see which Dawn Titans come to light as the new setting unrolls, but there's a bunch of potential primordials from past editions that could come out to play havoc. I wish I could find my old Manual of the Planes....
So, just to sum it up, it seems like the primordials are basically bada$$ elementals of some sort or another. This makes sense since they're all from the Elemental Chaos (so far), and want to turn the world into their own personal pocket of the above.
Updated the list with the possible primordials mentioned.
I believe they have mentioned the five Elder Elemental Evils somewhere (probably the previews) -
Cryonax - Evil Cold
Imix - Evil Fire
Ogrémoch - Evil Earth
Olhydra - Evil Water
Yan-C-Bin - Evil Air
I remember that they didn't like Yan-C-Bin, so they were getting rid of him (Obviously because a certain person on the team dislikes him, the assumption is that every other person on Earth must not like him either).
Anyhow, 'Elemental Evils' sound about right for primordials.
Not to sound stupid, but what does 'Dr' stand for?
Ah, sorry about that. Dragon Magazine is what that denotes.
I believe they have mentioned the five Elder Elemental Evils somewhere (probably the previews) -
Cryonax - Evil Cold
Imix - Evil Fire
Ogrémoch - Evil Earth
Olhydra - Evil Water
Yan-C-Bin - Evil Air
I remember that they didn't like Yan-C-Bin, so they were getting rid of him (Obviously because a certain person on the team dislikes him, the assumption is that every other person on Earth must not like him either).
Anyhow, 'Elemental Evils' sound about right for primordials.
Poifect. Added to the list. Weren't there good versions of each of those elements as well? I can't remember the source for that, but I'm fairly sure it's out there somewhere.
Their names are: Ben-Hadar (male water), Chan (female air), Sunnis (female earth), and Zaaman Rul (male fire).
Other powerful elemental beings include:
Uzrith (earth), Alyolvoy (Water) - identified as evil archomentals in Dungeon #37.
Gazra (male ash) - The Inner Planes appendix (for Planescape).
Crystalle (king of minerals) - Dragon #174, also mentioned in The Inner Planes, Dragon #347, and elsewhere.
Alu Kahn Sang (dust) - The Inner Planes and Dragon #347.
Ty-h'kadi, Prince of Thunder and Lightning, Lord of Storm Elementals, mentioned only in Dragon #347 and Dragon #353.
Bwimb II (female ooze), described in The Inner Planes.
Chilimba (magma), described in The Inner Planes.
Ehkahk (smoke), described in The Inner Planes.
Sun Sing (vacuum), described in The Inner Planes and mentioned in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss and Dragon #347.
Bristia Pel (female fire, ambushed and killed by Chilimba and Ehkahk during a battle against the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. Rumored to be the mother of Zaaman Rul. Mentioned only in Dragon #353.)
Because the elemental planes have been combined with Limbo in fourth edition, it's possible the slaad lords (Chourst, Rennbuu, Ssendam, and Ygorl) count as primordials as well.
Note that all demon lords are supposedly corrupted primordials in 4e, though I would especially name obyrith lords like the Queen of Chaos, Dagon, Pazuzu, Pale Night, and Obox-Ob.
Other named primordials:
Erek-Hus, King of Terror (Monster Manual, page 74).
Tabrach-Ti, Queen of Bronze (Dragon #372, page 26).
Shar as well.
Ghaunadar and Moander?
As for Jergal, he's a being of law, and primordials are creatures of chaos. Note that primordials are not necessarily more ancient than gods, despite their name. The word refers to their nature, not their age. I would say Jergal is almost certainly not a primordial, having little to do with the elements or primal chaos. Jergal is concerned with the organization of mortal souls, which makes him more of an outer planar being than an inner planar one.
Also, I think Shar should have been a Primordial - she would have made more sense that way, especially if there is supposedly a primordial of Darkness. I suppose that would have been too much of a retcon (because then Selune would also have to be a Primordial, and neither would be able to have worshippers).
Its just kind of confusing that you can have both a God(ess) of Darkness and a Primordial of Darkness... once again I see the lines being too blurred.
Thanks. You put that Shar headache into words very well.
That mess seems like it'll require a new angle of thought in order to resolve. Maybe.....if the universe were a TV screen, where the primordials would prefer a distorted image of channels tuning in and out randomly, Shar just wants the TV off. She's not into destruction for destruction's sake, which necessitates something that has been created to dismantle; she wants the entire cycle itself to end. (As for the deities, they would each want the TV always on their particular channel...and always in HD!)Delving further into the lore side of things...I think it's important to remember that the exact flavor and story developing around 4e core primordials may end up tweaked somewhat (or a lot) when dropped into FR. Having said that, I got a chance to peruse the Elemental Chaos section of MOP today. Some things that jumped out at me in relation to the primordials:
- Primordials likely number in the thousands or tens of thousands. :whatsthis
(Interesting conceptual leap.) - Primordials are indeed described as "primal incarnations of nature." (That's not an exact quote but it's the/an idea presented...and it begs a differentiation from primal spirits.)
- Disorder is certainly the overall tone of the Elemental Chaos, whether it involves evil or not, but creation (in addition to destruction) is notably mentioned as well.
- Primordials can be as complex/intelligent/powerful as deities and can certainly have worshipers, followers, etc. (I really want to see Abeir stuff on this.)
- Some sages theorize that elementals are shards of consciousness of shattered primordials.
- Loosely speaking, Titans : Primordials :: Angels : Deities.
Having lost some of her essence when they created the first GoM, she understood that it was possible to become a Deity in her own right?
She may have been the first Prity ever!
Obviously Shar had a deep connection to Shadow, and Selune had a deep connection to Arcanum - which could be interpreted as 'Elemental Shadow' and 'Elemental Magic' (Raw Magic). These were the primal energies that would have been ripped from them during the War of Light and Darkness (and created Mystra)
Now, I suspect Shar has been stealing back pieces of her Darkness from Mystra for many years, and probably got the last bit back when Mystra morphed into Mystra/Midnight (hence the alignment change for Mystra) during the ToT.
Could be that both Shar and Selune have gotten their elemental natures back now, and Shar worshippers are merely tapping the Shadowfel/Umbral Source and are not really receiving divine magic at all.
The same would go for Selune - I can definately see her priests getting Arcane Magic (think Hecate) instead of divine now. In fact, since both Selune and Mystra were able to Grant Silver Fire (Blue Fire and Moonfire), it makes it even more likely that Selune was a Primordial of Magic itself.
Also, two Primordials 'giving birth' to a deity sounds about right, since Primordials are really D&D versions of Greek Titans.
In 4e, its really just a matter of semantics anyway - priests of Primordials would simply tap sources other then divine - it all boils down to the same thing, with them recieving spells/powers from their focus of worship.
What about the giant deities like Grolantor, Memnor, Thrym, Surtr, et al.? They all live in the Elemental Chaos. Are they also primordials? Or are they deities who moved their realms to the Elemental Chaos after the Spellplage caused the Elemental planes to "fall" into the Abyss? Could Jothunheim have merged with those planes as well?
They are the lords of the titans and giants, thus primordials.
They are the lords of the titans and giants, thus primordials.
This wasn't really the impression that I got from the new MoP, or the FRPG. They are indeed lords of titans and giants, but it is written in a way to suggest that instead of primordials, or, as they had been in 3e, deities of their respective giant type, they are instead just really powerful titans.
The Elemental Princes of Good were originally described in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III. They were also named in Defenders of the Faith and described again in Dragon #353.
Their names are: Ben-Hadar (male water), Chan (female air), Sunnis (female earth), and Zaaman Rul (male fire).
Other powerful elemental beings include:
Uzrith (earth), Alyolvoy (Water) - identified as evil archomentals in Dungeon #37.
Gazra (male ash) - The Inner Planes appendix (for Planescape).
Crystalle (king of minerals) - Dragon #174, also mentioned in The Inner Planes, Dragon #347, and elsewhere.
Alu Kahn Sang (dust) - The Inner Planes and Dragon #347.
Ty-h'kadi, Prince of Thunder and Lightning, Lord of Storm Elementals, mentioned only in Dragon #347 and Dragon #353.
Bwimb II (female ooze), described in The Inner Planes.
Chilimba (magma), described in The Inner Planes.
Ehkahk (smoke), described in The Inner Planes.
Sun Sing (vacuum), described in The Inner Planes and mentioned in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss and Dragon #347.
Bristia Pel (female fire, ambushed and killed by Chilimba and Ehkahk during a battle against the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. Rumored to be the mother of Zaaman Rul. Mentioned only in Dragon #353.)
Thanks for all that! I did some old issue delving, but I only have the one copy of Dragon 353. Any chance of getting page number references on any of those other sources? Updated the OP to include all these.
Because the elemental planes have been combined with Limbo in fourth edition, it's possible the slaad lords (Chourst, Rennbuu, Ssendam, and Ygorl) count as primordials as well.
This would certainly make sense, so I'll update the list to include them, since Bazim-Gorag is mentioned in the FRPG as a primordial, a slaad lord, and an ascended batrachi.
Note that all demon lords are supposedly corrupted primordials in 4e, though I would especially name obyrith lords like the Queen of Chaos, Dagon, Pazuzu, Pale Night, and Obox-Ob.
Is this actually the case? Where exactly does it say this? I assumed since (until recently) the Abyss wasn't part of the Elemental Chaos, that the demon lords are in a class of their own.
Other named primordials:
Erek-Hus, King of Terror (Monster Manual, page 74).
Tabrach-Ti, Queen of Bronze (Dragon #372, page 26).
Is the Monster Manual you reference the 4e MM?
Thanks again ripvanwormer! Great additions to the list here.
If the Giantish deities are indeed Primordials, then Annam should be part of the theoretical Elder Primordials (or Elder Gods - whichever you prefer).
If we continue to follow the pattern of Greek Mythology, then these 'Elder Beings' (Cosmic entities?) would be akin to Ouranos, who begat Cronus (and the Titans - our Primordials), who in turn begat the deities.
It seem there is always another, older level of beings who are usurped at some point by newer beings - and the cycle appears to continue as ascended mortals begin to take the place of deities.
And ALL of these beings - and a whole lot more - would fall under the umbrella-category of 'gods'.
Deities are gods, but not all gods are deities. Deities are just the 'rookies' in the cosmic scheme of things... and mortals are their 'farm team'. ;)
I would say Annam is most definately a Primordial, but his 'children' - the Giantish Pantheon - may be gods (that whole 'second generation' thing).
Per the 4th edition campaign guide, all the giant "gods" are titans, including (explicitly) Annam. As such, they're creations of the primordials, but not primordials themselves. See, for example, page 67: "All titans pay homage to the mightiest among them - the mysterious Annam." Other titans mentioned are Skoreaus, Thrym, Surtr, Grolantor, and Memnor.
They might be gods as well as titans, though that obviously wasn't the designers' intent (or they would have been included in the list of gods). Still, it's an awfully strange retcon to make beings who were so obviously gods in previous editions not gods anymore with no explanation, so I'd certainly make them gods.
Thanks for all that! I did some old issue delving, but I only have the one copy of Dragon 353. Any chance of getting page number references on any of those other sources? Updated the OP to include all these.
Uh, sure.
TIP = The Inner Planes. DotF = Defenders of the Faith.
Cryonax: DR347, p. 30. TIP, p. 72. PSMCIII, p. 16.
Imix: DR347, p. 32. TIP, p. 46. PSMCIII, p. 16. DotF, p. 96.
Ogremoch: DR347, p. 35. TIP, p. 37. PSMCIII, p. 16. DotF, p. 96.
Olhydra: DR347, p. 36. TIP, p. 56. PSMCIII, p. 16. DotF, p. 96.
Yan-C-Bin: DR347, p. 39. TIP, p. 26 PSMCIII, p. 16. DotF, p. 96.
Ben-Hadar: TIP, p. 55. PSMCIII, p. 20. DotF, p. 96.
Chan: TIP, p. 25. PSMCIII, p. 20. DotF, p. 96.
Sunnis: TIP, p. 37. PSMCIII, p. 20. DotF, p. 96.
Zaaman Rul: TIP, p. 46. PSMCIII, p. 20. DotF, p. 96.
Chilimba: TIP, p. 78. DR347, p. 39.
Bwimb II: TIP, p. 84. DR347, p. 39.
Ehkahk: TIP, p. 89. DR347, p. 39.
Gazra: TIP, p. 112.
Alu Kahn Sang: TIP, p. 117. DR347, p. 39.
Sun Sing: TIP, p. 124. DR347, p. 39.
Uzrith and Alyolvoy: Dungeon #37, p. 65.
Crystalle: Dragon #174, p. 100. TIP, p. 98. DR347, p. 39.
Ty-h'kadi: DR347, p. 39.
Ssendam, Ygorl, Chourst, Rennbuu: Dragon #221, page 73. Also On Hallowed Ground, page 52.
Is this actually the case? Where exactly does it say this? I assumed since (until recently) the Abyss wasn't part of the Elemental Chaos, that the demon lords are in a class of their own.
They are a class of their own, but they were originally primordials. It says this in a bunch of places, but for starters look at the 4th edition Monster Manual, page 52: "The evil of the Abyss corrupted even some of the mighty primordials—Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus—and reshaped them into the likeness of pure destructive evil."
I think this is a terrible idea, personally, since it eliminates the tanar'ri/obyrith distinction that played such a large role in James Jacobs' 3rd edition Abyss stuff (Fiendish Codex I and the 3rd edition Demonomicon of Iggwilv series), but you really can't expect much considering who designed the 4th edition Monster Manual. Anyway, that's what it says. Personally I'd ignore it and keep using the 2nd and 3rd edition histories for the various demon lords.
You could make the argument that this doesn't apply to the Forgotten Realms, since the Abyss was an outer plane there, as you said, until recently. I have no idea how the designers resolve that sort of thing in their heads. Possibly the Abyss started out as part of the Primordial Chaos, then became an Outer Plane, then became part of the Primordial Chaos again? Or maybe we should just assume 3rd edition canon on the subject holds true unless someone specifically says it doesn't. I like that better. As you were, then.
Is the Monster Manual you reference the 4e MM?
Yes.
They are a class of their own, but they were originally primordials. It says this in a bunch of places, but for starters look at the 4th edition Monster Manual, page 52: "The evil of the Abyss corrupted even some of the mighty primordials—Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus—and reshaped them into the likeness of pure destructive evil."
I think this is a terrible idea, personally, since it eliminates the tanar'ri/obyrith distinction that played such a large role in James Jacobs' 3rd edition Abyss stuff (Fiendish Codex I and the 3rd edition Demonomicon of Iggwilv series), but you really can't expect much considering who designed the 4th edition Monster Manual. Anyway, that's what it says. Personally I'd ignore it and keep using the 2nd and 3rd edition histories for the various demon lords.
Yeaaaaaaaaah. I'm right there with you. Demon lords as corrupted primordials. Who's ever heard of such poppycock!?
Will update the OP with all the reference stuff as soon as I can, thanks ripvan!
They are a class of their own, but they were originally primordials. It says this in a bunch of places, but for starters look at the 4th edition Monster Manual, page 52: "The evil of the Abyss corrupted even some of the mighty primordials—Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus—and reshaped them into the likeness of pure destructive evil."
I think this is a terrible idea, personally, since it eliminates the tanar'ri/obyrith distinction that played such a large role in James Jacobs' 3rd edition Abyss stuff (Fiendish Codex I and the 3rd edition Demonomicon of Iggwilv series), but you really can't expect much considering who designed the 4th edition Monster Manual. Anyway, that's what it says. Personally I'd ignore it and keep using the 2nd and 3rd edition histories for the various demon lords.
Whether all of the demon lords are corrupted primordials or not (can't actually find the place where it explicitly says all), for one this is definitely not the case since he was once a devil, Graz'zt ;)
Also note that the MM ideas behind Demon Lord origins isn't FR's.
Exactly. This is one bit of the lore of Core D&D that just doesn't seem to fit in with the FR cosmology as it has been, and isn't really something that could be retconned very easily.
You could make the argument that this doesn't apply to the Forgotten Realms, since the Abyss was an outer plane there, as you said, until recently. I have no idea how the designers resolve that sort of thing in their heads. Possibly the Abyss started out as part of the Primordial Chaos, then became an Outer Plane, then became part of the Primordial Chaos again? Or maybe we should just assume 3rd edition canon on the subject holds true unless someone specifically says it doesn't. I like that better. As you were, then.
No worries there. You are correct. The 3rd edition canon/timeline is preserved in 4e. There have been several official statements (need to find some citations) stating that the 3e timeline is still canon (except where specifically stated).
The Abyss was originally an Outer Plane in the FR cosmology. After the Spellplague, when Dweomerheart exploded, Azuth was tossed about the currents of the Astral Sea. He somehow found himself drawn into the Nine Hells. Asmodeus consumed Azuth and thereby ascended to greater godhood. Asmodeus hurled the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos where it now resides.
As for why the Abyss started out as an outer plane in the FR cosmos, I assume that their core origin was "true" for the core worlds of D&D but that neither the Abyss or the Hells had a presence in the original FR cosmos back at the beginning, but were brought into the FR cosmos as interlopers from the core cosmos sometime after Ao created Realmspace. Perhaps they were brought in by Shar as mercenaries in the War of Light & Darkness between Shar & Selûne.
You could make the argument that this doesn't apply to the Forgotten Realms, since the Abyss was an outer plane there, as you said, until recently. I have no idea how the designers resolve that sort of thing in their heads. Possibly the Abyss started out as part of the Primordial Chaos, then became an Outer Plane, then became part of the Primordial Chaos again? Or maybe we should just assume 3rd edition canon on the subject holds true unless someone specifically says it doesn't. I like that better. As you were, then.
The asumption here is that they actually give a f%#&.
Anyhow... you never heard of a 'back door'?
These are 'Cosmic Planes beyond comprehension'. Walk out one way and you're in the middle of the Maelstrom, walk out another and you're on the Great Ring. These 'things' don't occupy physical space in any way we can fathom. If one group of people think their way of getting there is the only way, and another group feels that way about another path to the Abyss, why can't they both be right?
Cosmologies are just very vague illustrated representations of how mortals perceive the planes' relationships to be, and its different for nearly every world.
Even Planers only think they know the Dark of it, but their all barmy anyway. :D
Yeaaaaaaaaah. I'm right there with you. Demon lords as corrupted primordials. Who's ever heard of such poppycock!?
Ignore 4e lore - fortunately theres so little of it, and what there is is completely inconsistent, so its pretty easy to do. ;)
These are 'Cosmic Planes beyond comprehension'.
That's one approach. But where's the fun in that? For me a lot of the fun is trying to comprehend them. ;)
Asmodeus hurled the Abyss, what the hell
That means we have to explain how it could be one way, when we know damn well it was different before.
Ergo, the "everyone is right, and everyone is also wrong" explanation turns out to be the best one.
Of course, I could piggy-back this on Mystra and the Spellplague as I've done with every other inconsistency. We could say the way things are now (circa 1479 DR) is the way the universe was meant to be (this shoe-horns into how I view magic now), and somehow the 'Great Wheel' was some sort of Cosmic-Level Artifact which has become 'unglued' because of the Spellplague Shockwave which rippled through the multiverse.
Perhaps 'The Cage' was really a cage all along - if it was truly built to imprison the LoP, that makes Sigil a VERY potent and intricate artifact. If whoever built it - perhaps those beings that exist beyond and before the Primordials - constructed the entire Great Ring as part of this Uber-artifact (the Outlands?), and the Outer Planes were merely a material component (like I said - thats one AWESOME artifact!)
So the Cerulean Wave washes across the Outer Planes and the Great Ring, creating an effect similar to a super-disjunction, which shatters the artifact (the Great Ring) and everything returns to the way it once was (and was meant to be).
But I HATE blaming EVERYTHING on the Spellplague... even though it IS the perfect all-purpose Deux-ex-machina.
Also, I would say it was Jazirian and Asmodeus (Ahriman) who built it... just to make ALL the lore consistent. ;)
Jazirian would have been it's 'caretaker', and with her death in 3e, that left just Asmodeus, and he couldn't keep the universe from breaking apart all by himself. So, no Caretaker and the Spellplague Shockwave would have worked in unison to create the conditions required for the Universe to "snap back".
(there are the draedens, leshays, the Great Old Ones or whatever)
personally I'm done with wotc's inconsistencies, the Twin Serpents idea never was appealing nor the Cerulian Wave
The Cage and who built it is a mystery, and should remain like that (including the Spire), one possibility is that it was some race from Acheron, looking at its architecture, the bladelings or the extinct hassitors. Also the kamarel, rilmani predecessors, the Imaskari ...
Homebrew: (with some canon sprinkled in)
A group of Muhjari (Zakharan refugees) find an ancient Batrachi temple to Aoskar in the Purple Plains, and unlock its secrets, and the secrets of trans-planer dislocation. This tribe - the Imajari - get a jump-start over the rest of the Muhjari, and thus begins their magical ascendency in the region.
They build a temple-city around the ancient Cathedral, and start calling themselves the Ima-skari - 'Skari' being the plural of 'Skar' in Roushoum, which means 'child of' (so Skari = 'Children of'). Just think about what that means with Aoskar. ;)
Anyhow, something goes REALLY wrong, and the entire city gets sucked into some other dimension (Rip's take on Sigil), and the rest of the Imaskari name Inuprus as their new capital, and begin to research other avenues of Magic (Golemic Arcana becomes a popular field of study for awhile after the trans-dimensional disaster).
"Zzutam is hardly worthy of that title, let alone the worship you give him," Cyric said. "He's a frost elemental, not a true deity." Again, the blank looks from his audience made the Prince of Lies pause. "You're Zzutam's high priest, right, Thrym? Does he grant you any magic for your devotion?"
"He makes snow," Thrym rumbled. "He send us chow."
...For Thrym and his clan, Zzutam was the only power in the universe. He'd been the patron of their forefathers; he'd be the protector of their children - once the clan found a female who could tolerate any of them for more than a day.
That the Abyss was used as a moat to split the battlefield of the Bloodwar might have been some pact the freshly divine Asmodeus could have pulled by using enhanced telepathy to actually speak to the Abyss's essense and bargain a redirection of the Abyss's activity towards the elemental planes (causing them to swirl).
As I have said before, the current cosmic model is how the Universe exists in it's natural state, but at some point in time in the distant past, a group of Elder Beings (or one VERY powerful one) created the Great Wheel - it was an artifical construct and an Uber-Artifact left over from an earlier epoch.
The artifact has been shattered and the Primordials released - it seems pretty simple to me. The new alignment (or rather, lack there-of) of the Planes has caused sevral power shifts, and boths sides in the Bloodwar have called a temporary 'Cease Fire' until things have settled down and the new 'cosmic Geography' examined. Since these are immortal being, 'temporary' is subjective, and since they are trying to get a 'head count' after the shake-up in planes that are practically infinite, who knows how long the Bloodwar will be postponed.
In the mean-time, feuds between specific Fiends can still spark smaller battles, and it's just as likely to see various fiends working together to make mortals lives miserable. As for Asmodeus, any 'indigestion problems' he may have had would have gone unnoticed (for the most part) during the chaos of planer-realignment.
As always, I find a way to blame the Spellplague. :D
Also, I think Shar should have been a Primordial - she would have made more sense that way, especially if there is supposedly a primordial of Darkness. I suppose that would have been too much of a retcon (because then Selune would also have to be a Primordial, and neither would be able to have worshippers).
After all the discussions about deities and planes and the multiverse and all, I come to think of it that you might be right (in a Realms point of view only, though).
Well, after 3e made it pretty clear that deities are heavily dependent on mortal worshippers I'm now wondering what exactly Selune and Shar did in the time of the 'happy equilibrium' (as Gray called it), where no mortal servants existed yet, besides waging a cosmic war, of course. Or better, how did they do it without the power they normally gain from mortal worshippers? So either they were pretty weak or mortals didn't matter much to them at that time (perhabs due to an already present divinity, implanted into them by Ao). Or, to get back to your idea MT, they were never really dependent on mortals, for they were never deities (or at least, they weren't deities from the begin on).
Anyway, this might be nothing, since in 4e canon it was already established that both deities and primordials existed well before the first mortals came into being (or even the mortal world, for that matter).
No wars yet :D
It works for me, anyways. That said, Shar has seen then became a goddess as well.
Light v Dark, Good v Bad... god v primordial...
To quote Ash Williams, "Good... bad... I'm the one with the gun."
I think even if Selune and Shar started out as primordials, they became deities when they moved their kips over to the Astral Sea.
The god template gives an entity the ability to channel the divine powersource fueled by worshippers. Primordials are able to channel an elemental powersource.
The god template is powered by worshippers, so in the absence of worshippers a god cannot channel any divine power.
But a primordial with the god template has access to two powersources. In the absence of worshippers, a primordial could still fall back on his elemental powersource. A primordial might not even care about accessing the divine power source. It might simply be a byproduct of acquiring lots of worshippers.
Mortals who loose their god template might revert to mortals, or if they had lived past their natural lifespan, they might just die without divine power to sustain their existence. Gods that were born as gods would almost certainly die if they lost the critical mass of worshippers needed to maintain their god template. But other immortal entities, like primordials, demons, or elementals, might just revert to what they were before.
The god template can also be seen as similar to a title of nobility. An entity with multiple "templates" will probably be seen first as the template from which he derives the most power, similar to the way someone with the titles Duke, Count and Baron, will go by Duke, because Duke trumps the other two.
Thus an ascended human is seen as a god. An ascended demon is viewed primarily as a god. But a Primordial with a god template might still be seen as a Primordial, especially if his god template was low rank (say a DVR of 2 or 6). If you can command some pretty stellar power as a Primordial and to a lesser extent as a god, then you might be seen and see your self as a Primordial first, more than a god.
Godhood may be the natural consequence of acquiring worshippers. If you have enough people praying to you, you might just acquire the god template whether you want to or not. I think Istishia, Grumbar, Akadi and Kossuth are pretty blasé about their godhood. Perhaps they even view it as a nuisance. It is just something they picked up from becoming worshipped by zillions of elementals and mortals alike. They may derive more power from being extremely powerful primordials, even though they have also become pretty powerful gods in their own rights.
I think the presence of the primordial lords as major dieties on Fearun implies that Shar and Selune we're entangled in a diplomatic war to favour their side in the prehistory of Toril. Silvanus, an ally of the newly ascended Selune, took a liking to Chauntea and perhaps helped tame the primordial lords of Fury away from Shar's side.
In the 14th century Realms the Fury gods where much more capricious and seemed to favor destruction more. This period the primordials actions tend to favor Shar's side, thereby pointing suspection to the leader of the fury gods Talos.
Talos should have been a primordial aswell, but instead he turned out to be Gruumsh. Who's trickery idea was that? Ilneval? And what does he get? Ilneval is killed when the rouse is revealed (my own little spin in the absense of Ilneval in 4E FR...). I would have preferred that Talos remained but had betrayed Shar for Silvanus.
I can imagine that Asmodeus would need time to adjust to his newfound status after his struggling divine snack. His ascension must have been a violent event and must have cost him dearly. How could he possible juggle an eternal struggle with his scheming brothers and wage eternal bloodwar while weakened after his fight with Azuth? He needed to buy time and force the bloodwar in a stalemate.
As far as I know, Azuth fell to the nine hells either in a dying state or already dead, so that wouldn't have cost Asmodeus much to go kill him and consume his essence. On his own turf Asmodeus would have made minced meat of Azuth, bearing in mind that Asmodeus killed a God back when he was just a "mere" angel*.
*And yes, I am aware this is contradictory because most designers over the years have completely contradicted themselves and changed things on a regular basis. Why you lot think this is something unique to 4E is beyond me. The new 4E core cosmologies origin sucks horribly, so I don't use it over the more "biblical like" interpretation, which I vastly prefer for his origin.
There will probably never be a 4E FR origin for Asmodeus anyway (mercifully) so I can keep it however I want, which will be consistent with older FR canon and not the 4E Manual of the Planes.
As far as I know, Azuth fell to the nine hells either in a dying state or already dead, so that wouldn't have cost Asmodeus much to go kill him and consume his essence. On his own turf Asmodeus would have made minced meat of Azuth, bearing in mind that Asmodeus killed a God back when he was just a "mere" angel*.
*And yes, I am aware this is contradictory because most designers over the years have completely contradicted themselves and changed things on a regular basis. Why you lot think this is something unique to 4E is beyond me. The new 4E core cosmologies origin sucks horribly, so I don't use it over the more "biblical like" interpretation, which I vastly prefer for his origin.
There will probably never be a 4E FR origin for Asmodeus anyway (mercifully) so I can keep it however I want, which will be consistent with older FR canon and not the 4E Manual of the Planes.
I'm not understanding you here... 4e Core has him as an angle that killed a god and took it's power. What is it that you dislike?
I'm not understanding you here... 4e Core has him as an angle that killed a god and took it's power. What is it that you dislike?
It's possible I got them mixed up actually, as I think I may be incorrectly recalling that in 4E he was some strange serpent thing that fell into the nine hells and became horribly injured. Then uses the devils to gather souls to heal himself or something.
That origin completely sucks arse.
It's possible I got them mixed up actually, as I think I may be incorrectly recalling that in 4E he was some strange serpent thing that fell into the nine hells and became horribly injured. Then uses the devils to gather souls to heal himself or something.
That origin completely sucks arse.
Ahh, that origin is from Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. 3.x, not 4e.
I'm not understanding you here... 4e Core has him as an angle that killed a god and took it's power. What is it that you dislike?
Accepting it for FR requires we add a god to the history of the Realms important enough that it servants become a major planar race, and kill it off. Not impossible, but a god of the magnitude is going to be a major disturbance on the Realms theology. Oh, you can handwave it "Asmodeus was the servant of a forgotten god," but it's still a giant question mark. Whether this benefits the setting or not is a matter of opinion, of course, but it's a hurdle to be overcome. Maybe your take on Realms mythology demands a dead god of this sort, and the 4e origin myth for Asmodeus is the answer to your prayers. "At last I know what happened to Selune's husband!"
Plus, there have been three to five contradictory origins of Asmodeus over the years. None of them have been confirmed as FR canon, but people have been accepting them for their campaigns to varying degrees.
Ahh, that origin is from Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. 3.x, not 4e.
Aegeri is actually thinking of the origin myth from 2e's Guide to Hell, which was also referenced in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes.
The Fiendish Codex II myth is completely different - it has him as an angel created by the gods of Law to fight demons, who tricked them into giving him lawful evil souls to torment under the pretense that his punishment was the necessary enforcement half of Law.
No dead gods or strange serpent things were involved. It actually fit much better with Realms mythology than the 4e version did, since all your campaign needs is a Blood War and powerful lawful gods willing to interfere with it. Of course, previous editions that had gods not being willing to interfere with the Blood War are another matter.
Aegeri is actually thinking of the origin myth from 2e's Guide to Hell, which was also referenced in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes.
The Fiendish Codex II myth is completely different - it has him as an angel created by the gods of Law to fight demons, who tricked them into giving him lawful evil souls to torment under the pretense that his punishment was the necessary enforcement half of Law.
No dead gods or strange serpent things were involved. It actually fit much better with Realms mythology than the 4e version did, since all your campaign needs is a Blood War and powerful lawful gods willing to interfere with it. Of course, previous editions that had gods not being willing to interfere with the Blood War are another matter.
Damn, you're right... I almost put (mostly) in my post because I wasn't sure about the world serpent bit... but I thought it was in there as well.
Since I use a D&D-erized form of the Judaeo-Christian mythos, blended with all others, I have a 'One, True God' (the Force? :P ), and then everything created 'beneath' him/her/it could be considered an angel... or celestial, or whatever.
'Deities' (in D&D terms) to me is just a single level within the divine hierarchy. Mortals think of Deities as 'true gods', but the reality is they are really arch-angels. Something in-between true gods and angels (or fiends, or anything else that fits into the 'Exarch' catch-all).
The thing about Deities is that they are the highest form of the Divine that interact directly with mortals, which is why on most worlds mortals call them gods. As a precedent for this, I point to Ao during the ToT - Torillians were unaware of it's existance until it made himself known, and then made everyone slowly forget about him over time. Mortals are not supposed to be aware of the 'upper-echelons' of the cosmic order.
Therefore Asmodeus just becomes a 'shard' of the being called Ahriman - a deity-level aspect of a somewhat-defunct higher being (in a manner similar to the world serpent).
Like Lolth, his power has waxed and waned over the countless millenia, but at the end of the day he is simply.... Asmodeus.
Yeah, they created the current order of the planes, but that doesn't have to mean much if all the other greater gods at that time were simply yet uninterested to either assisst or oppose them because they saw no point in thei endeavour.
I'm not understanding you here... 4e Core has him as an angle that killed a god and took it's power. What is it that you dislike?
Well, this new 4e background is also very ambiguous. It's pretty clear that he rebelled and fought a war against his divine master. Yet there is a lot of speculation about who actually killed said divine master. Some sources blame annother deity (Zehir and sometimes Tharizdhun) to have supported Asmodeus' war to be able to do the actual deiceide once Asmodeus' legions opened the way for him.
There's a thread somewhere on the races and monsters board where the evidence for the different theories about this deicide is collected from among the relevant 4e sources
Asmodeus was one of the first angels to join the rebellion and bring his "Legions" with him. The Angels that fought under Asmodeus didn't just care to fight the Gods that were their enemies, but they also began to mass murder the creations of the Gods for their soul power to keep up with the fight (these old angels like Asmodeus were extremely powerful, but they were still not a match for a God by themselves). This infuriated the Gods who fought back with everything they had and eventually both sides ground into a bloody stalemate, while the original leaders of the rebellion grew increasingly disgusted with Asmodeus'.
Unfortunately, Asmodeus was more cunning than the others and realised there was no chance of defeating the Gods by themselves. Even as the blood of millions of mortals fell at their blades, Asmodeus realised there was no way out of the war anymore and that the ancient enemies of the Gods - the daemons of the Abyss and primordials - began to stir. Facing mutual destruction, Asmodeus came to a clever ploy. He would trick the original leader of the rebellion into a massive attack upon Celestia, supported primarily by his own legions and then withdraw his forces at the last moment, leaving "Lucifers" armies grossly exposed to the Gods and the remaining loyalists. This would result in Lucifer falling and being captured, putting a stop to the war.
In return, Asmodeus realising the Gods after the war were not in the same condition to fight the daemons again - many of their own angels turned on them during the rebellion - had to turn his own forces to fighting the daemons. He made an agreement with the Gods that the souls of evil individuals and the damned had to be given to Asmodeus so that they could maintain the power required to fight the encroaching daemons.
From here it's as the "tricked" origin goes, with Asmodeus effectively setting himself up to be the ruler of hell with those favoured generals he took with him. Years of fighting in the blood war turned them into what they are now, with Asmodeus also directly stealing the souls of those mortals his servants could tempt. The only reason the Gods didn't start a second war against him at this trickery was because the damage from the original rebellion was truly horrific and angels are no longer created in the sizeable armies they once were* (EG "My name is Legion: for we are many."). Additionally, Asmodeus was holding the daemons at bay in the blood war buying time to recover from the war.
Eventually of course the Gods fell to their usual things of squabbling amongst themselves and such forth. Although not forgetting Asmodeus' betrayal, they are not in the same position to wage a multiverse spanning battle as they once could. This is particularly true after the spellplagues repercussions felled a great number of the Gods and with many primordials coming back, Asmodeus ending the Blood War (on his terms minding, but the Daemons are starting to align themselves in other ways...) it's not looking very good for the Gods if the primordials want to avenge their initial ass kicking in the dawn war.
After all there are far less Gods now and not all of those Gods would fight on the same side against the primordials either for that matter. Noting that this is a combination of approaches with this particular origin for my games canon. In addition, I like a theme that the Gods are in decline and their ancient enemies like primordials (daemons) are in ascension since their original defeat in the dawn war. This fits in my view especially because of the spellplague and its repercussions on the multiverse in general.
*It's also my explanation for why Gods find the mortal worlds and souls especially so incredibly important, hence their very direct interests in the people on Toril and constant fiddling around there.
This is also just a summary of my more detailed timeline. Asmodeus is rumoured to have killed a God during the rebellion, but this isn't actually true. It's just a myth he fosters to ensure others think he's more of a threat than he actually is and to dissuade the Gods from renegging on their deal to send the souls of the damned to the Nine Hells. Although he does deserve the title now after eating Azuth, it was mythical before under my origin. This is also a combination approach, taking the 4E "God killer" origin and combining it with some other theories to make it somewhat less black and white.
Don't recognize where thats from.
Mixing in the existing FR canon (well one of them) that Asmodeus was able to trick the Gods with my understanding of Lucifers rebellion against God from the Bible (and general interest in the subject). I don't directly call the angel involved Lucifer though...
In FR, he would be called Lûciifer. :D
In FR, he would be called Lûciifer. :D
-You forgot the apostrophe. All good fantasy names need at least one. ;)
Does anyone have any opinions on whether or not Zzutam is a primordial?
I think Zzutam is an ordinary elemental that aspires to achieve divinity through worship. I would guess that he does not have the power that primordials do, and so he seeks to gain power through an alternate path.
I would assume that elementals are not primordials, but maybe there is a fuzzy boundary between the two concepts. Perhaps Primordials are just arch-elementals. I guess the answer lies in whether or not there is "social mobility" between the classifications. Can an elemental gain power and rise to the status of a Primordial? Or do you just have to have been born a Primordial? Is there an analog scale between elemental and primordial, are there degrees of primordialness? Or is "primordial" a binary state--that is, you either are one or you are not.
If you compare them to the Greek Titans, there were the initial 12 or so super-duper titans, then those had kids, some of whom were titans, others of whom were classified as other things, like Olympians, Cyclopes, Hecatoncheires, Gigantes, Nymphs, etc. Titans could spawn 2nd generation Titans, but not all Titan spawn were born as Titans. But once the offspring were not born as titans, there was no longer any going back, further generations would be something else (unless the other parent was a titan; for instance, Atlas was the son of Iapetus, a titan, and Asia, an Oceanid). I suppose that the titan gene is recessive. Of course, that would mean that titans could still crop up every once in awhile in successive generations down the line, but that never happened. I guess Titan blood became diluted by successive generations, and so the essence of titan-ness faded into lesser forms.
I think it is notable that pretty much all the various nymph forms (the Greek equivalent to elementals) were descended from titans. This included naiads, dryads, oreads, oceanids, nereids, limnades, etc. Not sure how much this parallels the D&D Primordials (AKA the Dawn Titans), but perhaps the concept is similar.
So, unless elementals are considered primordials--which I suppose by some points of view elementals might be considered lesser primordials--but assuming elementals do not qualify as "primordial" then I would surmise that Zzutam is not one.
By the way, Ed Greenwood had this to say on the matter:
"Posted - 12 Jul 2006
Hi again. This time Ed tackles Dargoth’s query: “What’s the relationship like between Auril, Thrym, Kostchtchie (Demon Lord of Frost Giants) and Zzutam (The wanabe Elemental god from Prince of Lies) in the FR? Does Kostchtchie exist in the Forgotten realms? Or does Thyrm take his place in the Realms? (ie the same way Ghaunadaur has taken Jubliex place in the realms)?”
Ed replies:
Worship of all the deities you mention takes place in the Realms, because creatures from many planes and worlds have found their way to Toril by various means. However, veneration of Kostchtchie in Faerûn strengthens Thrym, master of frost giants (unless a Faerûnian mortal has the power to summon Kostchtchie, a Demon Lord, and does so, but in doing so has the carelessness or ignorance to bring Kostchtchie to the Realms uncontrolled - - whereupon Kostchtchie would gain power from worship, but also attract the attention and enmity of Thrym and other Faerûnian giant deities, who would move to harm, hamper, and banish him). So between Thrym and Kostchtchie: hatred; they are rivals. (But very little contact.)
As for the relationships between Auril and Thrym: they have very little to do with each other, as Auril concerns herself foremost with frost, cold, snow, and winter, and their effects on humans (and to a lesser extent other races), and Thrym concerns himself with frost giants. They largely ignore each other; Auril doesn’t mess with frost giants and Thrym pays attention only to frost giants.
As for the relationship of either of them with Zzutam: none (at least, no more than any deity pays heed to ambitious mortals). PRINCE OF LIES uses unreliable narrators, remember, and therefore not everything stated or implied in its pages is true.
Frost giants in the Realms, like humans, are both intelligent and spiritual: everyone “believes” in the gods, remember, having to take nothing on faith except the “true nature” of specific deities, and therefore whom they should worship. Frost giants can worship any deity they hear of, but are likely to worship only relevant deities (a drow divinity of fire, for example, would be largely meaningless to them) - - and in the Realms, Thrym is by far the most relevant. Ergo . . .
So saith Ed. Underscoring once again that the Realms is polytheistic, not monotheistic; most intelligent Faerûnian beings don’t worship just one god, and outside of professional clergy and zealots, only a minority of them even have “patron deities” (primary gods they worship before or above all others).
love to all,
THO"
Info?
Don't recognize where thats from.
In FR, he would be called Lûciifer. :D
I am aware that Lucifer in previous editions was an actual devil, but I removed that to a degree because I didn't exactly want to be entirely specific to the account in genesis.
I would assume that elementals are not primordials, but maybe there is a fuzzy boundary between the two concepts. Perhaps Primordials are just arch-elementals.
Well, not all Primordials are arch-elementals, but some arch-elementals might actually be Primordials. I'm particularly looking at the Archomentals of previous editions, here. Imix for example, as he was mentioned in the MotP, classifies just well for an ascended arch-elemental. Ascended to Primordial status. Mual-Tar, on the other hand, doesn't seem he was an arch-elemental or even elemental at a time in the way Imix was/is, thus he probably has always been a Primordial.
I guess the answer lies in whether or not there is "social mobility" between the classifications. Can an elemental gain power and rise to the status of a Primordial? Or do you just have to have been born a Primordial? Is there an analog scale between elemental and primordial, are there degrees of primordialness? Or is "primordial" a binary state--that is, you either are one or you are not.
As with deities, I think that both types exist. The one group consists of creatures that have always been Primordials and the other group's consisting of various ascended elementals/elemental creatures (e.g. slaadi).
And not just the basic four - I'm talking ALL Elemental Concepts (like Darkness, Radiance, Death, Taxes, etc...)
In my mind, primordials ARE the 'Elemental Gods'. I guess I'll never understand 4e lore.
* As in "basic building blocks of the universe" from a magical point-of-view, not a RW scientific one (replacing chemistry with Alchemy, and Physics with Elemental magic).
IMO they are both born as such, and some may have even ascended to primordial status (i.e. the Storm Sovereign epic destiny).
Heh.. heh? Whatcha think? Too comic-bookish?
I think that the Dawn Titans were, and still are, the most powerful of their respective elemental manifestations. I'm definitely swayed towards the idea of them being arch-elementals (to use a 3e term). Also, there's the whole Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar, Akadi being gods and goddesses, then revealed to be Dawn Titans themselves.
I actually came-out with a 'fix' for this, which got 'Greenwood approved' over at Ck.
Basically, its like this - the Weave was not the only way to use magic, but it was the easiest. It was an interface that allowed mortals to handle massive amounts of arcane energy without burrning themselves out.
That's a given...
What most folks didn't realize is that Mystra - being the clever git that she was - also made the Weave 'user friendly' to other extra-planer beings as well, as a very simple and efficient spell-delivery system for them. This is partly based on canon - we know that Mystra could deny a god from giving spells to it's clergy. However, that is really only true in the case of gods who used the Weave's easy interface (and most did, because otherwise they would have to actually pay attention to all their clergy and listen to all those prayers).
Some gods didn't bother to use the Weave - - like Shar and Mask, who used the Shadoweave (other, lesser-known options were available as well). Cyric, being a relatively new power, had no idea other options were available to him, and that is why he was using the Weave's spell-delivery system. In time, he would have discovered other means (like the Shadoweave). The only other option is for gods to pay closer attention to their followers and a give-out spells directly... which most of them are loathe to do (which Ao noticed, and attempted to fix with the ToT).
What does this have to do with primordials and Arch-Elementals? Well, prior to the death of Mystra and the collapse of the waeve, ANY being of sufficient power could use the Weave to deliver spells to followers... so long as they gave Mystra a little something-something on the back-end (in other words, they'd hand her a truckload of energy, and she would distribute it - and her take would be that folks were using the Weave, and making her more powerful through her portfolio). That means the folks like Grumbar and Kossuth were able to deliver spells to their clergy just as deities did, because they were using the Weave to do so. This also means that ArchFiends - like Orcus and Demogorgon - could deliver spells to followers as well.
After the Weave collapsed, this 'easy-to-use' method of granting spells to clergy vanished, and beings like Kossuth were literally out-in-the-cold. This is why they were able to grant spells prior to 4e, and now they can't.
I forget the exact words Ed used, but it was something like "though knowest the workings of the Weave well, Mr. Tay"... or some-such.
Anyhow, since that was Ed-approved, and I haven't seen anyone else try to explain it, I suppose you could consider that the semi-offical version (until someone official actually decides to address it).
I thought Primordials were the cosmic manifestation of the 'Elemental Concepts'*.
And not just the basic four - I'm talking ALL Elemental Concepts (like Darkness, Radiance, Death, Taxes, etc...)
They're manifestations of those elements found in the Primordial Chaos. There are more than just four, but I don't get the idea that abstract concepts like death or taxes have anything to do with that plane (death is more associated with the Shadowfell).
If they're manifestations of all concepts, than all gods would be primordials. That doesn't seem to be the case: there's no primordial of wealth (instead we have a goddess, Waukeen), no primordial of moonlight or darkness (instead we have goddesses, Selune and Shar). I think if they had wanted such entities to be primordials, they would have retconned them to be so, as they did with Kezef, Kossuth, and Akadi.
Gods derive power from worship and are therefore products of thought and mind. They represent abstract concepts, such as Death and Taxes and War. Concepts that require ratiocination.
The primordials arose before sentient life. They do not require worship to exist, they simply are. But as a consequence they have no dominion over those abstract things that require sentient perception and thought to define them.
There is, of course, some overlap. You can have gods of earth and ice and fire, but these gods represent the symbol of and meaning that substance has upon and in the lives of sentient beings--not so much the element itself but how sentient beings conceive of and feel about the element. A god of fire is not just simply made of fire, but represents how fire brings light to see, warmth to the hearth and home, the danger of burning, the use of a fire as a tool and weapon, to cook food, clear forest for farming, and destroy the homes and works of enemies. Humans pray to gods of elements in order to curry favor, gain control of the use of the thing, or propitiate the god in order to avoid the harmful effects of the element. While the line may be somewhat hazy, the god of an element is a very different thing from a primordial that embodies an element.
Likewise, primordials are said to embody chaos, which may at first blush seem like an abstract concept, but which has concrete effects in the world that might more accurately be described by the notion of entropy.
We are talking here about how avalanches move stone, snow or mud from a higher to a lower energy state. Whirlpools move water and those things floating in it from the surface to lower depths. Combustion causes wood to burn, releasing energy and transforming the wood to char, a less ordered state that contains less potential energy. The tides move relentlessly against the shore, eroding cliffs and grinding stones to sand. Chaos, therefore, relates to primordials in the manner of fundamental processes, natural phenomena that have physical effects in the world. "Chaos" is the primordial "verb" whereas "elements" are concrete "nouns".
As for the Selûne/Shar debate, I find myself straddling the fence on that one. They have always been referred to as goddesses. But they would seem to predate sentient life. However, that might not be determinative as the distinction between light and dark seems to be the first perceptual distinction that even basic organisms make, even single-celled organisms are phototaxic (tendency to adjust orientation in response to light). As such, Selûne and Shar could very well be a deific "missing link" bridging the concepts of primordial and deity.
I guess the question would hinge on whether Selûne and Shar embody fundamental concrete "elements" that exist in the absence of perception or thought. Are light and darkness abstract concepts or concrete nouns? Well, they are not tangible, and they do require perception. But they are phenomena that can be measured. Reasonable sages could disagree about the answers.
If it is at all telling, the FRCG states that "Unknown to the primordials, detritus remaining from its creation coalesced around the universe as an ocean of silvery liquid. From this glittering realm of starlight formed beautiful twin beings, polar opposites of each other, one dark and one light. The twin goddesses birthed of the Astral Sea quickly moved to defend the virgin worlds from the destructive primordials." This passage would seem to indicate that Selûne and Shar are not primordials. The Astral Sea is thought to be a manifestation of psychic energy, a product of thought, hope, longing, and the perception of sentient beings, those creatures that have souls. If Selûne and Shar are distilled from the Astral Sea, they should be considered gods by their very nature. And it would seem that they consider themselves firmly in the god camp, having been the first to oppose the primordials.
But while I am inclined to think of them as gods, I am not necessarily opposed to the notion that Selûne and Shar could have originated first as primordials.
I personally see no problem with primordials "ascending" to divinity upon becoming worshiped by sentient beings. I feel strongly that Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar, and Akadi are the lot of them both primordial and god. Primordials first in that they embody the 4 elements and draw their power directly from those elements without the need of worshipers, and would persist regardless of whether everyone stopped believing in them. However, as sentient beings have grown to worship these primordials as gods of the elements they embody, they have come to represent the effect that those elements have upon the lives of sentient beings. They have acquired divinity and can grant spells and have all the attendant powers and privileges that divinity affords the bearer of the office. While somewhat indifferent to their divinity, the elemental gods nonetheless serve the function of gods and provide divine service to their worshipers in the manner expected of them. I would contend that the elemental gods are both primordials and gods.
As for Selûne and Shar, I think the evidence favors divine origin but I suppose the primordial origin theory cannot be ruled out entirely. It may come down to an argument over semantics.
The Elemental Chaos may have existed for some time before the Inner Planes were created from that plane; it's conceivable that the Inner Planes were created at the same time that Toril was cloned from Abeir. Perhaps they only ever connected to Toril, while Abeir retained an Elemental Chaos instead. In that case, I wouldn't necessarily restrict primordials to the six cardinal Inner Planes and their classic Gygaxian quasielemental and paraelemental combinations, but I'd still use the Inner Planes as the main guideline for what you'd find in the Elemental Chaos. Like some of the new 4e elementals, you'll doubtless find primordials that are exotic combinations of disparate elements (fire and dust, radiance and water, air and earth, vacuum and mist) or quasi-elemental exotica like obsidian, pumice, and silt. Because wood is considered an element in Kara-Tur, there are probably also primordials of wood (on the other hand, these might technically be archfey, as Kara-Tur's spirit world is probably identifiable with the feywild).
Bejebuz abusing a turtle. What the hell is wrong with you people?
Now hush little one, let the big folks talk! :D
:P
Of course that could be a side deal with various gods and in Arkadi's case, she's kind of both God and Primordial and a member of the Seldarine.
Actually if they had slain and absorbed part of an actual god in the past it would explain how they could do that and Blazing Rorn can't.
I just realized I was responding to a post made three years ago :D
Its all good, still an interesting topic, these older threads need bumped from time to time, especially with the Great Merger and everything.