-Your Forgotten Realms: Forgotten Realms 303
The Realms really are dead if someone like Hocus-Smokus cannot see how they would benefit from the 4E Realms. The whole point of moving the timeline forward 100 years is so that DMs like you can have equal footing with their players. In the 4E Realms the players cannot possibly know more than the DM, unless they are quoting sources from antiquity. You above anyone else should be celebrating the changes.
-'Ware treading the waters of apologetics is all I'll say. Everyone has differing opinions on things.
-And, the part I bolded is just outright incorrect. As always, a player can always know more about the prepublished setting than the DM. The player reads a book the DM hasn't, reads a passage in the Spellguard adventure the DM doesn't, reads a passage in any of the books that the DM didn't...And, of course, that's just using the three initial books, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (August 18th, 2008), the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (September 16th, 2008) and Scepter Tower of Spellgard (September 16th, 2008).
Probably better to have said 'have more access to'... at least until the novels start churning out, then it opens up the exact same problem.
Yup. Then we'll be back here listening to the same ol' crap within a month.
The Realms really are dead if someone like Hocus-Smokus cannot see how they would benefit from the 4E Realms. The whole point of moving the timeline forward 100 years is so that DMs like you can have equal footing with their players. In the 4E Realms the players cannot possibly know more than the DM, unless they are quoting sources from antiquity. You above anyone else should be celebrating the changes.
Not really, although that certainly sounds nice. The whole point of moving the timeline forward is so that future FR authors won't have all that pesky Realms-review to do when they write their novels. In fact, that's really the underlying motivation behind all of the Spellplague.
Not really, although that certainly sounds nice. The whole point of moving the timeline forward is so that future FR authors won't have all that pesky Realms-review to do when they write their novels. In fact, that's really the underlying motivation behind all of the Spellplague.
QFT.
IMO, as far as gaming goes, it's no coincidence that some of the most popular settings for the novels (like Cormyr, Waterdeep, & the Silver Marches) were largely untouched by the Spellplague's effects. They left just enough of the geography & politics intact to keep most of the older fans from feeling alienated by the changes, while still clearing out the likes of the Chosen so that the players can step in as the new heroes of the Realms.
I can live with that as a player, & I bet DMs that want to pit their high-level players against the likes of Szass Tam will enjoy NOT having to come up with an explanation for why Elminster & Co don't just step in, instead.
-'Ware treading the waters of apologetics is all I'll say. Everyone has differing opinions on things.
-And, the part I bolded is just outright incorrect. As always, a player can always know more about the prepublished setting than the DM. The player reads a book the DM hasn't, reads a passage in the Spellguard adventure the DM doesn't, reads a passage in any of the books that the DM didn't...And, of course, that's just using the three initial books, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (August 18th, 2008), the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (September 16th, 2008) and Scepter Tower of Spellgard (September 16th, 2008).
Exactly, the whole point of moving the campaign ahead 100 years is to give them carte blanche on turning the Realms in to what they want with their ridiculous dragonborn, eladrin, "points of light", and all else they deem core now, that would not fit into the Realms as we have come to know and love.
We shouldn't pretend its anything more than that.
One of my friends still runs a version of FR that is based on second addition products. His group has a great time with the world that they have created that was originally based on those old products. Their world veered away from all of the third addition products but it still feels like a genuine Realms game to me.
We shouldn't pretend its anything more than that.
-Well, I didn't say any of that. I am just bringing up the point that saying players cannot know more than DMs is incorrect.
The spellplague I like, the idea of the powerful and mighty of the Realms getting killed by a souped-up magical version of the flu has a lot of ironic appeal to me.
The new continent of Abeir(sp?) being discovered and functioning as the home of the Tieflings and Dragonborn I like. Basically the "Europe" of the Realms (Toril) made contact with the Americas of it and found remnants of lost empires and places for high adventure. Nice backstory stuff if I stick to Toril, and even more content I can use for stories if I choose to.
Complaining about how things change going from 3e to 4e in the Realms is kind of like complaining that in Star Trek TNG are different from TOS. Almost a century had passed between show settings, and a century has passed in the Realms.... things change.
Basically the "Europe" of the Realms (Toril) made contact with the Americas of it and found remnants of lost empires and places for high adventure.
-"Europe" (Faerûn) already discovered "the Americas" (Maztica).
-"Europe" (Faerûn) already discovered "the Americas" (Maztica).
Maztica is SOUTH America... now they found North America. ;) Ok, I kid, I kid....
Or, it's just another previously undiscovered continent that sometime in the 100 years between 3.5e and 4e was discovered. Either way, that's still pretty cool. It's new content and can probably be retrofitted for 3.5e era campaigns by those so inclined.
Or, it's just another previously undiscovered continent that sometime in the 100 years between 3.5e and 4e was discovered.
-'Abeir' is not a previously undiscovered continent. It is a completely new continent. Before the Spellplague, it did not exist on the planet. The Spellplague caused 'Abeir' (Whatever that is...A plane? A demiplane? A continent? A world? What?) to switch with Maztica.
-'Abeir' is not a previously undiscovered continent. It is a completely new continent. Before the Spellplague, it did not exist on the planet. The Spellplague caused 'Abeir' (Whatever that is...A plane? A demiplane? A continent? A world? What?) to switch with Maztica.
Is that literally how it's being explained? If so then I still fail to see how the spellplague (the fallout of the goddess of magic dying) causing a massive dimensional shift that swaps a continent here for one somewhere else is inconceivable. (Of course, if one says it is, I have to comment that maybe "that word does not mean what [they] think it means" ;) ).
The way I heard it on the podcast made it sound like it was a previously undiscovered continent though. In that case the only thing to point out is that just because it wasn't on the maps does not mean it wasn't there or really is "new" in the context of the world (obviously it is new content, but that doesn't automatically mean that *poof* it appeared). After all, North and South America were always there but that didn't stop the Europeans from calling them the "New World" as if God had just plopped it down for them to find... and their maps prior to its discovery showed only a fantastically huge ocean spanning from western europe to eastern asia.
Is that literally how it's being explained?
-Yes. 'Abeir' is, as I continue harping on, some kind of continent/demiplane/plane/planet thingy. Part of it was...transmogrified onto 'Toril', and part of 'Toril' (Maztica) was transmogrified onto 'Abeir'.
If so then I still fail to see how the spellplague (the fallout of the goddess of magic dying) causing a massive dimensional shift that swaps a continent here for one somewhere else is inconceivable. (Of course, if one says it is, I have to comment that maybe "that word does not mean what [they] think it means" ;) ).
-The Spellplague (seemingly) as also being used to explain why the Planes are diverging so greatly from the Planes that we currently have. So, keeping that in mind, it can make sense.
I have a theory that Abeir and its gods and ihabitants existed on Toril before it was Toril, then the new gods came. They used the Weave and godly magic to displace the old gods and their worshippers. Now that the weave is gone they are trying to return to reclaim the place that the current gods stole from them.
-That doesn't work: I answered you about three other times now, in other threads. :P
-That doesn't work: I answered you about three other times now, in other threads. :P
We don't know what is in the 4E book. It may work. We don't know everything yet. Just because something is in a book doesn't mean they cannot work "around" the previous lore.
We don't know what is in the 4E book. It may work. We don't know everything yet. Just because something is in a book doesn't mean they cannot work "around" the previous lore.
-Your theory doesn't work, regardless of what's in the 4e books.
-Mystra, and thus, the Weave, was created before 'Abeir' was cast away from 'Toril'. BRJ has 'confirmed' that that was in -31,000 DR. Mystra and the Weave were created before that. Same thing with Shar and Selûne. These three beings were the first three beings in all of Realmspace. The Weave could not have been the impetus that slingshotted 'Abeir' away because 'Abeir' existed "linked" with 'Toril' while the Weave existed.
-Yes. 'Abeir' is, as I continue harping on, some kind of continent/demiplane/plane/planet thingy. Part of it was...transmogrified onto 'Toril', and part of 'Toril' (Maztica) was transmogrified onto 'Abeir'.
-The Spellplague (seemingly) as also being used to explain why the Planes are diverging so greatly from the Planes that we currently have. So, keeping that in mind, it can make sense.
Hmm, sounds actually pretty cool. Mind you I'd have preferred the "it's always been there and was recently discovered" but I can also find ways to use that explanation for adventures. Weakened dimensional fabric is a great plot device as long as one keeps it overtly subtle - in other words enough to worry people but not quite "rifts" ;)
Hmm, sounds actually pretty cool. Mind you I'd have preferred the "it's always been there and was recently discovered" but I can also find ways to use that explanation for adventures. Weakened dimensional fabric is a great plot device as long as one keeps it overtly subtle - in other words enough to worry people but not quite "rifts" ;)
-Like I said, 'Abeir' could have also been a planet and/or moon, weakening the planar fabric schtick, and making things generally more muddled than they already are.
The weave may have nothing to do with ousting the Old Gods.
-'Abeir' and the 'Elder Deities' alluded to in that Elder Evils book have no confirmed connections.
-I could be of the opinion that my dog is a boy. That doesn't change the fact that, in actuality, she is a girl. And, a good girl, at that! :D
Torils history may be 100% true, but what if the gods existed on Abeir. Hey what if the gods had nothing to do with it and Abeir was swept away by the Weave? Then the gods were born and so were the current races?
Hey what if the gods had nothing to do with it and Abeir was swept away by the Weave? Then the gods were born and so were the current races?
-'Abeir' was slungshot away in -31,000 DR. The Weave existed in -31,000 and had existed for some time. Humans, Sarrukh, Batrachi, Fey, Aeree, and Lammasu all existed before this period.
-We already know why 'Abeir' was sent away, in the most basic sense. A collection of "Lost Deities", who have since gone into a catatonic state, repelled the Aberration invasion.
-Have you read Stardeep?
-'Abeir' was slungshot away in -31,000 DR. The Weave existed in -31,000 and had existed for some time. Humans, Sarrukh, Batrachi, Fey, Aeree, and Lammasu all existed before this period.
-We already know why 'Abeir' was sent away, in the most basic sense. A collection of "Lost Deities", who have since gone into a catatonic state, repelled the Aberration invasion.
-Have you read Stardeep?
No I did not. See ya should have mentioned that. Hmmm, let me think...
In the meantime I will just discuss this with you and Marcus in the Podcast thread on the Fr forums.
No I did not. See ya should have mentioned that. Hmmm, let me think...
-Yes. Do that.
In the meantime I will just discuss this with you and Marcus in the Podcast thread on the Fr forums.
-That one? Alright, I'm there.
Not really, although that certainly sounds nice. The whole point of moving the timeline forward is so that future FR authors won't have all that pesky Realms-review to do when they write their novels. In fact, that's really the underlying motivation behind all of the Spellplague.
I doubt I'll be moving things along 100 years no matter what WoTC does. I like the realms and it will be childs play to keep it the way it is in 4ed, if I decide to play 4ed.
It allows for new growth and directions.
-Being as that the Forgotten Realms are a living setting, it is constantly growing and moving in all sorts of directions.
After you've heard about Elminster for the one millionth time it gets on your nerves.
-Of course, Elminster is still around. ;)
Yeah but he is even more of a plot hook now than ever.
-Well have to see. He is still a Rogue 7 / Cleric 3 (Or whatever it was), the owner of numerous items and artifacts, and a high ranking and founding member of the Harpers.
-Of course. That does not absolve the fact that facts supporting your opinions are either incorrect, non-existant as of now, or otherwise unilluminated.
-I could be of the opinion that my dog is a boy. That doesn't change the fact that, in actuality, she is a girl. And, a good girl, at that! :D
That is up, until the point the definition/identifiers of male and female dogs changes - if it changes!
Which is what he is saying. Either:
a) Lord Krasus will be correct and there will be some glaring lack of logic in the cosmological history of the Realms, creating further criticisms and complaints.
OR
b) History will be rewritten, explained, massaged - whatever you want to call it.
In any case - 4e will be cannon. Convert now or fall forever as some rather attractive balding has said ...
Sam W.
PS The OP, Hocus-Pocus or whatever, is one of the I-hate-4e-watch-me-blather-on individuals that has several posts complaining about various 4e aspects with really very little logical backing, and a whole lot of personal bias. Which is fine - it is a game after all.
That is up, until the point the definition/identifiers of male and female dogs changes - if it changes!
-Which they don't, and a regular basis.
a) Lord Krasus...
-I hate Lord Krasus. That German- I am assuming he's German- has wronged me so many times now. Something he recently did is the last straw!
PS The OP, Hocus-Pocus or whatever, is one of the I-hate-4e-watch-me-blather-on individuals that has several posts complaining about various 4e aspects with really very little logical backing, and a whole lot of personal bias. Which is fine - it is a game after all.
-Oh, okay. I, personally, have never "met" him before, so...
b) History will be rewritten, explained, massaged - whatever you want to call it.
I would find it highly unlikely that WotC would release AGHotR right before the launch of 4e, only to contradict it and rewrite things with the release of the FR campaign guide.
That, to me, makes no sense.
The history of the Realms is not being changed in 4E. Events which were previously unknown will be revealed, but the timeline as depicted in the Grand History is being preserved.
Case closed! :D
-Well, I didn't say any of that. I am just bringing up the point that saying players cannot know more than DMs is incorrect.
I know. I said it
I know. I said it
-I should have said, "I didn't say all of that".
-Well have to see. He is still a Rogue 7 / Cleric 3 (Or whatever it was), the owner of numerous items and artifacts, and a high ranking and founding member of the Harpers.
Ah, do I have to break out Elminster: Making of a Mage on you?
Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric (of Mystra) 3, as he was in order, a) highway bandit, b) city thief, c) adventuring Cleric, then aprentice Wizard in . . . that Elvish place, whose name completely escapes me (even though the Windsong Tower and its Grove of transformed Nethril Scrolls was one of my favorite places), thus making me look the fool. :embarrass
EDIT: Cormanthor! See, I'm not a total twonk!
Ah, do I have to break out Elminster: Making of a Mage on you?
Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric (of Mystra) 3...
-Oh, that's all? I thought it was a bit more than that? Well, no matter. A 6th Level character, with the resources, friends and allies that Elminster has still completely dwarves 1st level adventurers starting out.
-Oh, that's all? I thought it was a bit more than that? Well, no matter. A 6th Level character, with the resources, friends and allies that Elminster has still completely dwarves 1st level adventurers starting out.
His pipe alone could defeat some 1sties (that's assuming it survives the spellplague).
Oh and don't forget, he's an excellent dancer! So lord knows that's been mentioned about him often enough that it must have some bearing.
His pipe alone could defeat some 1sties (that's assuming it survives the spellplague).
-I hear that, in 4e, pipes are the focus to cast mind-altering spells...
-I hear that, in 4e, pipes are the focus to cast mind-altering spells...
I would find it highly unlikely that WotC would release AGHotR right before the launch of 4e, only to contradict it and rewrite things with the release of the FR campaign guide.
That, to me, makes no sense.
If in 1900 I wrote a detailed history of the United States from 1800-1899 that history does not change in the year 2000. Anything that happened today (or in the past) of the Realms is not being invalidated/retconned according to the podcast. The timeline is a century in the future and in that 100 years things changed.
Would it make a difference if WotC spent a decade releasing a series of new products for FR that slowly stepped us all through that 100 years to the same end point? Personally I'd rather they summarize what changed and leave as much of it open as possible so individual GMs can customize what they want without contridicting too much written/established lore for the future realms.
If in 1900 I wrote a detailed history of the United States from 1800-1899 that history does not change in the year 2000. Anything that happened today (or in the past) of the Realms is not being invalidated/retconned according to the podcast. The timeline is a century in the future and in that 100 years things changed.
Would it make a difference if WotC spent a decade releasing a series of new products for FR that slowly stepped us all through that 100 years to the same end point? Personally I'd rather they summarize what changed and leave as much of it open as possible so individual GMs can customize what they want without contridicting too much written/established lore for the future realms.
As I said, case closed.
And I agree with a summary of the 100 year jump, rather than an intricately detailed history.
The content isn't much better. OK, so you don't like the realms now. Don't play it.
I love what they've done... mainly. I like that a lot of the "old guard" is out of the power picture. I like that it's more or less a "reboot". I don't much like the implication that Orcs are somehow worthy of alliance...
But I can fix that the same way I fixed the Realms last time I ran it.
"We're playing my Forgotten Realms. WotC publications covering up to DY XXXX, the moment we begin our adventure, are canon. Anything after that never happened. Consider it our own alternate Realms universe we're playing in. In these Realms, only I get to play God."
That's an alarmist and wildly inaccurate post title.
The content isn't much better. OK, so you don't like the realms now. Don't play it.
I love what they've done... mainly. I like that a lot of the "old guard" is out of the power picture. I like that it's more or less a "reboot". I don't much like the implication that Orcs are somehow worthy of alliance...
But I can fix that the same way I fixed the Realms last time I ran it.
"We're playing my Forgotten Realms. WotC publications covering up to DY XXXX, the moment we begin our adventure, are canon. Anything after that never happened. Consider it our own alternate Realms universe we're playing in. In these Realms, only I get to play God."
A very well put and articulate response there, Ody. A smiley really can say a thousand words, after all. ;)
A very well put and articulate response there, Ody. A smiley really can say a thousand words, after all. ;)
I read that while my superior was screamming at me to go and get something so that was all I could manage at the time
Slacking off at work? I thought I was the only one who did that. :D
I'm pretty sure you don't get to do push-ups when your boss catches you though
Oh, my. Are we a military man, Ody? Or are you sneaking out of gym class to use the school computer lab? ;)
Oh, my. Are we a military man, Ody? Or are you sneaking out of gym class to use the school computer lab? ;)
Yes I'm a "military man" (on a side note slacking off get me in good shape ;))
Eh. I got the opposite problem. My boss lets me slack off with so many smoke breaks that I'm in horrible shape.
I need me a good five star general to make me do some push ups!
:P
-But, I am your ultimate boss...
:P
I'm not even about to ask how you punish him for insubordination.
On another thread Karsus posted Mr. Greenwood's response to some 4e inquiries. He comes out and states that Realms history is a majority view of what happened and could be inaccurate.
Ed says
“a timeline is not an explanation of what happens. It's only a summary. And a summary cannot explain clearly anything. The summary of the Fall of Myth Drannor don't explain the Fall of Myth Drannor. So, to see exactly what happened, we will have to wait until the next FRCS.”
Correct. As I’ve always said, mortals in the Realms can never know the “truth” about divine deeds and intentions, only what’s reported to them. By deities, priests, soothsayers, “possessed” madwits, and in dream-visions - - and ALL of those sources can be mistaken or misinterpreted, or can lie and distort or slant to further their own agendas. Yes, even the gods themselves. So what appears in THE GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS is what “the loudest reports say” happened, not what every being in the Realms personally saw and therefore “knows” (and agrees) happened.
End of what Ed says.
Basically the developers can do whatever floats their boat. Don't take The Grand History as cannon?
I know I'm going out on a limb here, but you could be wrong Karsus. The truth and facts are very fluid depending on what you want to prove. Ask any politician, comic book writer, or RPG developer. :D
I don't want to get into a debate on philosophy here, such a debate is very open ended.
On another note
You actually suffered through all of Stardeep. You are a brave man.
Space
End of what Ed says.
Basically the developers can do whatever floats their boat. Don't take The Grand History as cannon?
And we all know that Ed's word is law with FR.
In another thread, there was talk of rewriting history to explain certain things in 4e FR. Brian James made it clear that nothing in the Grand History would be rewritten.
Nobody is saying that somebody else will come along in a few years and override the devs at some point, but, for now, it will be considered fact.
And we all know that Ed's word is law with FR.
In another thread, there was talk of rewriting history to explain certain things in 4e FR. Brian James made it clear that nothing in the Grand History would be rewritten.
Nobody is saying that somebody else will come along in a few years and override the devs at some point, but, for now, it will be considered fact.
It isn't going to be rewritten, just told as it really happened, instead of from the majority viewpoint. :D
Our own history, as told and taught in our schools, is not accurate. It is from a viewpoint. You need to really study our history to get a factual accounting.
I don't want to derail this thread. I'm trying to make a point. So please don't start a debate here on the history of the U.S.
Having been involved in politics and having sold cars, very similar professions, I would love to see Brian James' post, so I can interpret the post myself. Any chance of that?
Space
It isn't going to be rewritten, just told as it really happened, instead of from the majority viewpoint. :D
Yes. I know. Ed said so.
That rapped, baby!
Our own history, as told and taught in our schools, is not accurate. It is from a viewpoint. You need to really study our history to get a factual accounting.
I don't want to derail this thread. I'm trying to make a point. So please don't start a debate here on the history of the U.S.
You lie!! Everything I hear from my peers is accurate and sound!!!
Slavery never existed! We never put a man on the moon! And Pee-Wee Herman is the damn antichrist--you people just don't know it yet!
Having been involved in politics and having sold cars, very similar professions, I would love to see Brian James' post, so I can interpret the post myself. Any chance of that?
Yeah. It's in one of these other "killed the Realms" type threads from recently. Let me look.
EDIT --Here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1016688&page=2
Took ten minutes to find. Gug.
I guess, overall, I should be more specific and say, if you are going to drop an old product for a newer version, are you going to go back and try and improve the older version for the masses--even if it is not in production anymore--or are you going to focus on making the newer version the best you can, so there is no disappointment? There is a hundred years of history that the devs need to create, tweak and focus on. I see no reason why you would want to go back and even deal with the 3e stuff until you run out of material--100 years worth--or you need to explain some in depth RSE.
You lie!! Everything I hear from my peers is accurate and sound!!!
Slavery never existed! We never put a man on the moon! And Pee-Wee Herman is the damn antichrist--you people just don't know it yet!
I guess, overall, I should be more specific and say, if you are going to drop an old product for a newer version, are you going to go back and try and improve the older version for the masses--even if it is not in production anymore--or are you going to focus on making the newer version the best you can, so there is no disappointment? There is a hundred years of history that the devs need to create, tweak and focus on. I see no reason why you would want to go back and even deal with the 3e stuff until you run out of material--100 years worth--or you need to explain some in depth RSE.
First off
Pee Wee rocks, even though he is the antichrist and I'm fairly sure we put a man on the moon. Please don't destroy my childhood dreams. Wait I've been married for ten years, good bye dreams. :D
I agree with your statement. They won't go back. If you plan on sticking with pre-spellplague FR, you will have to create the setting yourself. Don't we already do that?
I hope they don't detail too much. I would like to write some of that myself.
They know that in the end most will switch over, or so history has proven.
I never switched to 3e myself.
I will judge 4e FR when I have the book in my dirty little paws.
Space
First off
Pee Wee rocks, even though he is the antichrist and I'm fairly sure we put a man on the moon. Please don't destroy my childhood dreams. Wait I've been married for ten years, good bye dreams. :D
The antichrist will charm the masses--don't forget that. ;)
The moon landing was staged on a Hollywood set. Duh!
And history can be rewritten, but marriage is final.
First off
I agree with your statement. They won't go back. If you plan on sticking with pre-spellplague FR, you will have to create the setting yourself. Don't we already do that?
Um...you would be very surprised an how many won't do anything outside the "written law." I've already brought up the point about it being a game of imagination and how people can imagine it any way they want. Some people just don't want to do it.
On another thread Karsus posted Mr. Greenwood's response to some 4e inquiries. He comes out and states that Realms history is a majority view of what happened and could be inaccurate.
Ed says
“a timeline is not an explanation of what happens. It's only a summary. And a summary cannot explain clearly anything. The summary of the Fall of Myth Drannor don't explain the Fall of Myth Drannor. So, to see exactly what happened, we will have to wait until the next FRCS.”
Correct. As I’ve always said, mortals in the Realms can never know the “truth” about divine deeds and intentions, only what’s reported to them. By deities, priests, soothsayers, “possessed” madwits, and in dream-visions - - and ALL of those sources can be mistaken or misinterpreted, or can lie and distort or slant to further their own agendas. Yes, even the gods themselves. So what appears in THE GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS is what “the loudest reports say” happened, not what every being in the Realms personally saw and therefore “knows” (and agrees) happened.
End of what Ed says.
I know I'm going out on a limb here, but you could be wrong Karsus. The truth and facts are very fluid depending on what you want to prove. Ask any politician, comic book writer, or RPG developer. :D
-And he is incorrect. 3e materials are presented in the 3rd party omniscient viewpoint, unless specifically otherwise noted. Everything that is stated in a 3e sourcebook, because of this, is what happened, period.
-Ed still espouses, and is a believer in the idea that everything we know about the Realms is from a secondary source- Elminster, Volo, whomever. Third edition eliminated this, and as such, information stated in 3e sourcebooks are not to be taken with a grain of truth. They present the objective truth. No spin, error, or anything else.
-Third Edition materials are not told from the majority viewpoint. They are not told from the minority viewpoint. They are told from no viewpoints. They are the absolute truth.
-I'm not knocking you, or anything, but why is it that so many people have trouble grasping this concept?
I don't want to get into a debate on philosophy here, such a debate is very open ended.
-On what particular matter?
You actually suffered through all of Stardeep. You are a brave man.
-Not finishing a book once it is started is a waste of money.
--Not finishing a book once it is started is a waste of money.
But reading a horrible book is a waste of time
But reading a horrible book is a waste of time
-Only once you clean a gem can you find it's flaws.
-Only once you clean a gem can you find it's flaws.
Oh, then I'll wait for you to read the DragonLance novels...!
Oh, then I'll wait for you to read the DragonLance novels...!
-As I said, I have no interest. I don't care if I miss a gem here or there (or the entire novel line!), as I have no interest in the setting. The Forgotten Realms, or Star Wars, I do.
-As I said, I have no interest. I don't care if I miss a gem here or there (or the entire novel line!), as I have no interest in the setting. The Forgotten Realms, or Star Wars, I do.
I'm a bit impressed that you caught the "gem" in that.
As I said, it has nothing to do with any setting. It is beyond D&D. It is simply a great story--far more than any FR novel you buy will ever give you. I read it. I loved it. And I never had any compunction to deal with the setting--I thought D&D was a
joke when I started reading it. It is simply a great story--one that could have taken place in any setting at a given time. Not only that, but it is a very intelligent story--one which I know you could truly appreciate.
I'm not saying concede. I'm just asking that you consider--once you have some time--picking up the first few and reading them.
Besides. Did not Stigger agree. Is his word not divine? ;)
I'm a bit impressed that you caught the "gem" in that.
-In Stardeep?
-Well, there was a new Elven word...
As I said, it has nothing to do with any setting. It is beyond D&D. It is simply a great story--far more than any FR novel you buy will ever give you. I read it. I loved it. And I never had any compunction to deal with the setting--I thought D&D was a
It is simply a great story--one that could have taken place in any setting at a given time. Not only that, but it is a very intelligent story--one which I know you could truly appreciate.
I'm not saying concede. I'm just asking that you consider--once you have some time--picking up the first few and reading them.
-I don't particularly like sci-fi/fantasy. Asides for the Forgotten Realms, Star Wars, and the occasional 'hit', such as, say, Lord of the Rings, I generally avoid and abhor the genres. Again, asides for those aforementioned series' and singles, I try to keep my reading a bit more...critical in thinking, for a lack of better terms.
Besides. Did not Stigger agree. Is his word not divine? ;)
-Stigger is not divine. He is luminous.
The antichrist will charm the masses--don't forget that. ;)
The moon landing was staged on a Hollywood set. Duh!
And history can be rewritten, but marriage is final.
Um...you would be very surprised an how many won't do anything outside the "written law." I've already brought up the point about it being a game of imagination and how people can imagine it any way they want. Some people just don't want to do it.
There is so much more to the anti-christ than most could understand. Truth be told, the false prophet is far more dangerous than the anti-christ. FP will damn your soul, while the AC just deals with the political realm. However, such a discussion, while illuminating, is immaterial to D&D hehe
It does baffle the mind that we can land people on the moon in the late 60's but somehow can't land anyone on the moon in the early 21st century... One has to wonder what the real scoop is...
History is often rewritten by those in power to forget unflattering aspects of the past. Every power in the world is guilty of this including the U.S. Sifting through propaganda is time consuming and even when you manage to succeed in such an endeavor, chances are some of it slips through anyway. As always when reviewing history you must consider the source. The more a power stands to lose from telling the truth, the more inclined they will be to hide it or spin events to their advantage.
Marriage was once a sacred institution, respected and cherished by all. It saddens me deeply that society tries to blame its problems on one group or another without looking at its foundation and the erosion thereof for the root causes. Once the family institution no longer functions society wide you will have the full range of problems that we face today; school shootings, single parents, entitlement citizenry, and so on.
I don't know if anyone here has noticed but schools are turning out people completely unequipped for life. No real discipline, no real direction; just a get in get out, get paid mentality. People are no longer being taught to think for themselves but rather to take the lead from the elite.
I suppose I could go on but I fear it would mostly fall on deaf ears
However, to tie this into the topic at hand...
4e and 4e Realms seems to cater to the mentally lazy, rather than imaginative people. I say this based on everything I've read, which is most of the material presented thus far. God forbid someone actually taking to the time to do a little research before playing in an area of the Realms.
Anywho, it seems I'm ranting so I'll stop now
Of course Stigger is Divine....
-You limit yourself to being divine? Luminocity trumps divinity.
-You limit yourself to being divine? Luminocity trumps divinity.
So true. There is nothing so limiting than being the God of . . . . Being an Anthropomorphic Personification of a concept is the most limiting thing you can become. Humans are great! They can be anything, do anything, imagine anything. Personifications (gods (little g), angels, demons, etc) are that one concept (Fertility, Heroism, Corruption, etc). They can imagine nothing else. They can be nothing else.
Just look at poor Dream (in Neil Gaiman's Sandman). 75 issues devoted (beautifully, I might add) to the concept that one must evolve or die. In the end, he could only die.
Being enlightened, illuminated or ascended is far, far better! :D It's why I prefer Mage: The Ascenion to Scion (Hero, Demigod, God). Though, Scion is still pretty cool!
Oh, and Lord Karsus, you should know better by now.
Ed Greenwood doesn't pretend to receive info from sources like El. He is El. Ed is a legal fiction allowing El to retire on Earth and pad his nest egg a bit more by selling the Forgotten Realms "fiction." Silly, silly man. :D- I try to keep my reading a bit more...critical in thinking, for a lack of better terms.
I know you're talking about Harlequin romance novels, aren't you?
I know you're talking about Harlequin romance novels, aren't you?
-Yeah, how'd you know? :P
Oh, and Lord Karsus, you should know better by now.
-Yes, yes, I know. I figure it's best not to alarm others, until it seems they can mentally handle all of that.
-Yeah, how'd you know? :P
I figured it had to be the source of your vast power
-Yes, yes, I know. I figure it's best not to alarm others, until it seems they can mentally handle all of that.
And now we know why EL came to earth. He lost his powers in 4e FR and used his knowledge of portals to come to earth. Why not? He lost his abilities with magic, he might as well make money off realms tales.
Going back to the history debate for a minute. I haven't read Stardeep. At what point did the separation of the worlds occur?
Space
Going back to the history debate for a minute. I haven't read Stardeep. At what point did the separation of the worlds occur?
-The exact date is not mentioned in the novel, but Brian has stated elsewhere that it was in -31,000 DR.
!!! Get caught up in
at work for one day and I end up a year behind on all the blathering….-I don't particularly like sci-fi/fantasy. Asides for the Forgotten Realms, Star Wars, and the occasional 'hit', such as, say, Lord of the Rings, I generally avoid and abhor the genres. Again, asides for those aforementioned series' and singles, I try to keep my reading a bit more...critical in thinking, for a lack of better terms.
As do I. It takes pulling teeth for me to try new authors, let alone new genres. I love Sci-Fi, but not dare read any of it. And I don’t read anything outside the Realms unless Margaret Weiss is involved—and even then, only with DL. I spend most my time reading tech papers.
So I do see where you are coming from.
I’m just saying if you dry up and need something....
The Chronicles are what created the genre to begin with—just like the first three Star Wars films did. And they aren’t books you wont finish or waste money on.
There is so much more to the anti…
Anywho, it seems I'm ranting so I'll stop now
Wooby—get your booty back to training those smurfs and stop trying to educate the unejumakatuble massez.
Besides, you know this belongs in the thread, “Forgotten Realms: It’s Affects on American Society”
and I didn't agree that the Dragonlance books were good, I agreed that I didn't care for the setting either.
My apologies, Mr. Road Flare. Your overwhelming brightness must have caused me to misread something.
Yes, but I'm trying to put this in terms the JD will understand, so if he wants to think of me as divine, I have no problem letting him do so. Mortal minds and all that. :P
Well, let me think—un-huh. Un-huh. Now, just le’ me think…er….
Oh, I got it!! It’s called placating ones ego.
So true. There is nothing so limiting than being the God of . . . . Being an Anthropomorphic Personification of a concept is the most limiting thing you can become. Humans are great! They can be anything, do anything, imagine anything. Personifications (gods (little g), angels, demons, etc) are that one concept (Fertility, Heroism, Corruption, etc). They can imagine nothing else. They can be nothing else.
And there are issues with Bejebuz primarily taking the form of the Divine Taco? Silly little luminous people, I guess.
-The exact date is not mentioned in the novel, but Brian has stated elsewhere that it was in -31,000 DR.
The Days of Thunder and time of the Creator race, I guess?
Never read the book and never seen a starting date. Farthest back was like 25,000 years or something.
The Days of Thunder and time of the Creator race, I guess?
-That is correct, sir.
As do I. It takes pulling teeth for me to try new authors, let alone new genres. I love Sci-Fi, but not dare read any of it. And I don’t read anything outside the Realms unless Margaret Weiss is involved—and even then, only with DL. I spend most my time reading tech papers.
So I do see where you are coming from.
I’m just saying if you dry up and need something....
The Chronicles are what created the genre to begin with—just like the first three Star Wars films did. And they aren’t books you wont finish or waste money on.
I'd agree with the Judge. I really enjoyed the first series and the Twins bit (Time of, Test of, War of . . .). Course this is coming from the guy who obsessively reads everything, watches every movie and roleplays. Stories are the monkey on my back. They say there is a medicine for it.
And there are issues with Bejebuz primarily taking the form of the Divine Taco? Silly little luminous people, I guess.
Well Tacos are tasty, but not the best form to speak to the masses.
The Days of Thunder and time of the Creator race, I guess?
I love the creator races, especially the scalykind fellows (can't remember the name) from the Serpent Kingdoms.
Well Tacos are tasty, but not the best form to speak to the masses.
-Mmm...I love tacos. Some people have a 'sweet tooth'. I have a 'taco tooth'. Heh, one of the craziest memories I have is of me, my dad, and a family friend getting to a Mets game late, because we went a little out of our way to make a 'Taco run'.
-Mexican is usually the meal of choice on my birthday, when I get to pick.
I love the creator races, especially the scalykind fellows (can't remember the name) from the Serpent Kingdoms.
-Sarrukh.
-That is correct, sir.
Stardeep?
Never heard of it before. Where do I find this--and what makes it so good?
Stardeep?
Never heard of it before. Where do I find this--and what makes it so good?
No one said it was good :P. Stardeep IIRC is the last novel of the Dungeon series, I liked it but alot of people didn't
Stardeep?
-Again, Stardeep doesn't mention exact dates. Brian has stated that it was indeed -31,000, however.
Where do I find this...
-The bookstore.
...and what makes it so good?
-Nothing, actually. A very bad book.
-Again, Stardeep doesn't mention exact dates. Brian has stated that it was indeed -31,000, however.
That's right
-The bookstore.
-Nothing, actually. A very bad book.
I rest my case :D
-The bookstore.
Smartass.
Smartass.
You set yourself for that one my friend :D
Smartass.
-You asked.
You set yourself for that one my friend :D
Yuh. I'm still learning that LK is up and ready to stick his
in any hole I leave open for him. Just need to keep the corks prepared, I guess. ;)Yuh. I'm still learning that LK is up and ready to stick his
You're not gonna beat him Judge. Man was a god. For about 6 seconds, but a god none the less!
You're not gonna beat him Judge. Man was a god. For about 6 seconds, but a god none the less!
Who said I was taking him on? Besides, you do need to remember that it was those 6 seconds that became his folly. :D
Yuh. I'm still learning that LK is up and ready to stick his
Heh... you love it, and you know it. Just take it like a man. In prison. ;)
Heh... you love it, and you know it. Just take it like a man. In prison. ;)
That is one place I always have a cork, buddy.
That is one place I always have a cork, buddy.
Imagine the fun one could have if the letter "r" were switched out for the letter "c".
It's just amazing how often he just bends over and invites it...
My apologies. It's just been so long since I've had to deal with high school mentalities that I've lost my touch it seems. I'm doing my very best to degenerate back to that level, so I can better converse.
Don't worry, Stigger. Soon enough, we'll be able to relate!
Imagine the fun one could have if the letter "r" were switched out for the letter "c".
I try not to imagine such things.
Actually my comment was just a friendly poke at a fellow gamer who has shown that he can take a joke hehe. Just to clear that up in case someone were to misinterpret it, which happens frequently around here
Don't worry, wooby--we still the dark duo. How the smurfs comin' along?
I try not to imagine such things.
And please try harder. You imagine it at all and it makes me question your taste.
Don't worry, wooby--we still the dark duo. How the smurfs comin' along?
Hmm, well we had a minor setback...
Jokey Smurf blew himself up inadvertently when trying to assemble his vest. Now Brainy Smurf is giving all the others a lecture about safety for which he promptly gets booted. Other than that they will perform as intended for the Empire.
:invasion:
Hmm, well we had a minor setback...
Jokey Smurf blew himself up inadvertently when trying to assemble his vest. Now Brainy Smurf is giving all the others a lecture about safety for which he promptly gets booted. Other than that they will perform as intended for the Empire.
:invasion:
Jokey.
That blue pile of
never did have what it takes. Good job in having Brainy train the idiots. Though, I would watch out for Clumsy Smurf. That
idiot will blow all of those blue dorks up in a heartbeat. And lets not forget Lazy. His ass is sure to fall asleep when the plan goes into action. Good job, my man!! You are doing far better than I am with these
care bears. For some reason they can't get their minds around killing. That twink, Friend Bear, has been telling them all that there is no reason for violence. She thinks all can be made peaceful through negotiations.I may need to lock her up with Harmony Smurf for a while to get her cooperation.
...And please try harder. You imagine it at all and it makes me question your taste.
Hey now... I wasn't the one who originally brought up edible transformer deities, or holes that need "corking", or the value of twinkies with their sugary white filling... it's not my fault!
:D ;) :D
Hey now... I wasn't the one who originally brought up edible transformer deities, or holes that need "corking", or the value of twinkies with their sugary white filling... it's not my fault!
:D ;) :D
Sick heathen!!
This is exactly why Jesus doesn't exist anymore--people like you twist and pervert Him.
Thank Bejebuz we have Him now or all would be lost.
AND HE IS NOT a transformer!
AND THERE WAS NO CORKING SPOKEN OF in concert with Bejebuz!
NOR was there any mention of you and your lust for creamy white filling.
Turn to Bejebuz!! Ask for leniency! He sure as hell ain't gonna give you forgiveness!
Sick heathen!!
This is exactly why Jesus doesn't exist anymore--people like you twist and pervert Him.
Thank Bejebuz we have Him now or all would be lost.
AND HE IS NOT a transformer!
AND THERE WAS NO CORKING SPOKEN OF in concert with Bejebuz!
NOR was there any mention of you and your lust for creamy white filling.
Turn to Bejebuz!! Ask for leniency! He sure as hell ain't gonna give you forgiveness!
Tripartite monotheism is SO confusing. I think I'll stick to Freyja and her fantastic heathen rack.
And the mead-inspired frolicking. 
Tripartite monotheism is SO confusing. I think I'll stick to Freyja and her fantastic heathen rack.
Um...
You just weird.
I've been told that Bejebuz doesn't want you. You're free to go...and frolic..or some such thing.
Um...
You just weird.
Nope, just happy in my heathenry.
I've been told that Bejebuz doesn't want you. You're free to go...and frolic..or some such thing.
That's ok, I rejected him first so it's totally cool.
This thread would make me weep in despair for the future generations... except I don't really care about them, so carry on.
Despair not, for the Ancient Gods have returned - and we are returning to Them.
Tripartite monotheism is SO confusing. I think I'll stick to Freyja and her fantastic heathen rack.
Can't go wrong with a little mead-inspired frolicking!
That's ok, I rejected him first so it's totally cool.
Um...dude...uh...you wanted to eat Him. You were salivating so bad that I had to bring you a roll of paper towels. You don't remember this?
Um...dude...uh...you wanted to eat Him. You were salivating so bad that I had to bring you a roll of paper towels. You don't remember this?
Hm... requesting a bite isn't "salivating so bad that... etc".
Anyway, I think maybe one of us (could be me; otoh, it might be Bejezus) may not exactly understand the humor-thread intended by the other. So, cheerio pip pip and all that!
Back to playing with my delicious goddess I go! :D
Hm... requesting a bite isn't "salivating so bad that... etc".
Anyway, I think maybe one of us (could be me; otoh, it might be Bejezus) may not exactly understand the humor-thread intended by the other. So, cheerio pip pip and all that!
Back to playing with my delicious goddess I go! :D
Oh, its all humor. But you were salivating for a bite.
And that "delicious goddess" you are playing with is BEJEBUZ!!
Salivating now?!
Praise Jebebuz! Get down with Bejebuz!
Oh, its all humor. But you were salivating for a bite.
And that "delicious goddess" you are playing with is BEJEBUZ!!
Salivating now?!
Praise Jebebuz! Get down with Bejebuz!
Er... wow. I'm out. Was fun while it lasted. Sorta.
Er... wow. I'm out. Was fun while it lasted. Sorta.
The Days of Thunder
Um...if Tom Cruise pops up as a 4th Edition NPC, I am definitely not going to be playing. We've already got one kook with Eliminster, we don't need Tom joining in and doing the baboon dance all over the sofa.
Um...if Tom Cruise pops up as a 4th Edition NPC, I am definitely not going to be playing. We've already got one kook with Eliminster, we don't need Tom joining in and doing the baboon dance all over the sofa.
Awww...I wanted killing Xenu to be my Epic-level destiny.
Um...if Tom Cruise pops up as a 4th Edition NPC, I am definitely not going to be playing. We've already got one kook with Eliminster, we don't need Tom joining in and doing the baboon dance all over the sofa.
-He might be in the Monster Manual...
-He might be in the Monster Manual...
Yeah. But what the hell would you classify him as?
Yeah. But what the hell would you classify him as?
Ummm Aberrant Humanoid, or whatever things from the Far Realms get as a designation. He's definitely out there!
Yeah. But what the hell would you classify him as?
-An Aberration. Maybe he is the leader of 'Abeir'?
It is advised that if one sees the Screeming Jumper, to just turn around and run away before sights best forgotten are forever burned into ones memory. Many the adventurer has lost the will to travel the roads of Faerun once they have encountered this most horrible of Humanoid Aberrations.
P.S.: Note to Warlords: Remember, when you run, Bravely Run Away.
-An Aberration. Maybe he is the leader of 'Abeir'?
If so, then I fear the Toril portion of the world is doomed.
The Screeming Jumper (aka Tom Cruise) is known for jumping atop rises of 2' or more off the ground. They then screem in octives not meant for the average Aberration Humanoids voice whilst jumping up and down and windmilling their arms. They are also know to occasionally shout out their love for the first actractive Humanoid of the female persuasion they encounter.
It is advised that if one sees the Screeming Jumper, to just turn around and run away before sights best forgotten are forever burned into ones memory. Many the adventurer has lost the will to travel the roads of Faerun once they have encountered this most horrible of Humanoid Aberrations.
P.S.: Note to Warlords: Remember, when you run, Bravely Run Away.
-Now, do these creatures get along with Gibbering Mouthers, provided that they appear in 4e?
If so, then I fear the Toril portion of the world is doomed.
-I think we passed that point a few months ago...
-Now, do these creatures get along with Gibbering Mouthers, provided that they appear in 4e?
Answer:
The Screeming Jumper considers itself to be the King Of The Hill. It rountinely utilizes the abilities of it's "Lesser" cousin the Gibbering Mouther to do the "Common" work. They tend to have an air of superiority, even considering their wild antics when females walk by.
-I think we passed that point a few months ago...
Yeah, but before it was WotC to blame. Now it's all Tom Cruises fault. We go from renaissance to high fantasy and now from paganism to Scientology. That will be the real death of the Realms.
The Screeming Jumper considers itself to be the King Of The Hill. It rountinely utilizes the abilities of it's "Lesser" cousin the Gibbering Mouther to do the "Common" work. They tend to have an air of superiority, even considering their wild antics when females walk by.
No big deal. You just have a PC turn Klinger, lure the Screaming Jumper to distraction, then have the rest of the team ambush it from behind.
You know, sort of like paparazzi, but with axes instead of cameras.
The Screeming Jumper considers itself to be the King Of The Hill. It rountinely utilizes the abilities of it's "Lesser" cousin the Gibbering Mouther to do the "Common" work. They tend to have an air of superiority, even considering their wild antics when females walk by.
-Ah, I see. What are the odds that the Ecology of the Screaming Jumper appears in a future issue of DRAGON Magazine?
They were going to have to change lot of things already, would YOU go through the effort of changing ALL of those npcs etc etc etc over to 4th edition? No. You'd find a way to not use them in your own world.
Well what is the best way to do that.. make sure that they are either dead, or otherwise unusable.
I don't just play in a premade world. I have made two of my own and one of which was more or less 'in limbo' in terms of detail and the other was made in quite a large amount of depth mechanic oriented wise, that last one was my first campaign world which has gone under the knife -every- edition change and has even had it's map changed entirely. It is going to require a major overhaul for 4th edition to make it work right. FR has so much more to work with than what I created even, so I understand completely why they did it and why I am glad they did it. They could not afford to waste so much time converting something so massive over. Especially when some of the material goes back into 2nd edition.
Another issue with Forgotten realms was, quite frankly just about anywhere you would adventure, guess what there is (higher level) a character already doing just that that has a 'famous' name.
They -needed- to change the setting because it was bloated at best already. And if they didn't there would be complaints of it being just a book of errata that you are 'forced to pay for'.
I am pretty sure that had wotc not changed one iota of storyline with forgotten realms there would be countless whining about "omg it's just a copy and paste from the old book + errata changes" or something along those lines.
Yup. there is always a whiner.
They were going to have to change lot of things already, would YOU go through the effort of changing ALL of those npcs etc etc etc over to 4th edition? No. You'd find a way to not use them in your own world.
Change what with the NPC's? Their stats? Why? Just drop the stats. Its part of the reason so many people hate them so much as is--they see someone with higher stats/levels than themselves and they get a inferiority complex and decide its not worth adventuring becuase somebody else is going to handle it.
Well what is the best way to do that.. make sure that they are either dead, or otherwise unusable.
It appears--for the most part--that is what they are doing. So be happy! :D
Another issue with Forgotten realms was, quite frankly just about anywhere you would adventure, guess what there is (higher level) a character already doing just that that has a 'famous' name.
And this character can handle what a team of you can?
They -needed- to change the setting because it was bloated at best already. And if they didn't there would be complaints of it being just a book of errata that you are 'forced to pay for'.
Opinions vary, of course. I liked the bloat--gave it its character.
And, for the record, if you know how and where to look, you really don't have to pay at all for much of this stuff. ;)
Well quite frankly yes he could, because he's got 6 levels or more on you and your pathetic little band along with probably some kind of unique magical item and or artifact.
You should not as a rule have so many npcs out there that they could in theory do what needs doing all on their own. This is what happens when all novels are considered canon material. (which is a stupid philosophy in my opinion especially when you get some real stinkers out there)
When it gets to a point the dm has to decide what is canon and what isn't there is a problem I think with an established world.
Oh I am quite pleased, and I am quite pleased with the newer storyline.
Well quite frankly yes he could, because he's got 6 levels or more on you and your pathetic little band along with probably some kind of unique magical item and or artifact.
You should not as a rule have so many npcs out there that they could in theory do what needs doing all on their own. This is what happens when all novels are considered canon material. (which is a stupid philosophy in my opinion especially when you get some real stinkers out there)
When it gets to a point the dm has to decide what is canon and what isn't there is a problem I think with an established world.
I've been through this conversation before, so no offense, but I just find it ridiculous that the number of high level NPC's in the Realms could and should affect game play in anyway. I mean, if they were there to stop everything and poke their noses into every ones plans, then even the novels wouldn't have any good characters unless they were the Chosen or Drizzt, simply because true adventurers couldn't save the day to begin with.
I think we have all heard: "Where's the cops when you need them?"
Well, they aren't around and its do or die time.
cops do not have access to divination spells *L*
You're right. All the Chosen are sitting around divining your PC's day and night, just in case things get above their heads. I've been blind for so long.
"Ebony and Ivory...."
If a player is being a problem, tell him to go take it up with the Gnome. In his LAIR!:D
Yeah. That Travelocity gnome scares the
out of me, too. I'd definitely listen to my DM, rather than get stuck with his freaky-deaky ass. 
Problem solved.
Another issue with Forgotten realms was, quite frankly just about anywhere you would adventure, guess what there is (higher level) a character already doing just that that has a 'famous' name.
-Like? Specific examples, please.
-Like? Examples?
Nowhereville
Bart the Brainy
Wiz96/Acm52/Epic27; CR 1,736 (due to FR NPC bonus)
etc., etc, etc....
Bart the Brainy kills all adventures by beating the adventurers to the adventure, etc....
Nowhereville
Bart the Brainy
Wiz96/Acm52/Epic27; CR 1,736 (due to FR NPC bonus)
etc., etc, etc....
Bart the Brainy kills all adventures by beating the adventurers to the adventure, etc....
-Yes, yes, I know those. That why I was asking for specific examples. I'll edit that and be more clear.
-Yes, yes, I know those. That why I was asking for specific examples. I'll edit that and be more clear.
Geez...guess I'm just a generalist.
Oh I am quite pleased, and I am quite pleased with the newer storyline.
Well quite frankly yes he could, because he's got 6 levels or more on you and your pathetic little band along with probably some kind of unique magical item and or artifact.
You should not as a rule have so many npcs out there that they could in theory do what needs doing all on their own. This is what happens when all novels are considered canon material. (which is a stupid philosophy in my opinion especially when you get some real stinkers out there)
When it gets to a point the dm has to decide what is canon and what isn't there is a problem I think with an established world.
Meh, not really. The novels are for entertainment and do show a side of the Realms. They do explain why Myth Drannor went from abandoned to reinhabited, for example. But this "The NPC's will do it" attitude just baffles me.
There is a reason these guys are NPCs and not the Pregenerated, You Must Pick From These PCs. They have their own motivations. They do things their way and for their reasons. Those may include not stopping the big demon horde. After all, El might not like it, but if Mystra is fine with being worshiped by demons instead of humans, she'll have El stand aside and let things happen. Now should those demons start messing with how magic is done, Mystra will have El all over that in a heart beat. That's assuming he's not four planes over, following up on some essoteric bit of lore.
Drizzt is going to want to know why you've come to him to solve a problem in Mulhorand. He's busy up north. And so on and so forth for every single guy. Though I'd love to see a party approach Larloch or Zass Tam instead of Elminster! That'd be fun! Though it would be an extremely short campaign. Cause they wouldn't buy your BS for a moment. After the exhaustive, painful and ultimately lethal mind probing and torture to get the "Truth" they'd leave your corpses for their minions to clear and deal with that little problem you had. Or not depending on how truly "Realms shaking" it was. Only the GM will know. ;)
If a player is being a problem, tell him to go take it up with the Gnome. In his LAIR!:D
With his treasure and his minion!
He can hand you his treasure just like it was Halloween! 
Course, poor fellow probably will not like the outcome. 
Geez...guess I'm just a generalist.
Me too. Why specialize and limit how much power you can toss around?
Oh and I think you underestimated the FR NPC bonus to CR. Just sayin'. I hate to be all rules lawyerie on you, but we gotta be accurate here.
Me too. Why specialize and limit how much power you can toss around?
Oh and I think you underestimated the FR NPC bonus to CR. Just sayin'. I hate to be all rules lawyerie on you, but we gotta be accurate here.
This is my character and he gets the stats I want him to!They killed Faerun...and for that, I hate them a little bit.
me too.
me too.
there's the truth
I've been through this conversation before, so no offense, but I just find it ridiculous that the number of high level NPC's in the Realms could and should affect game play in anyway. I mean, if they were there to stop everything and poke their noses into every ones plans, then even the novels wouldn't have any good characters unless they were the Chosen or Drizzt, simply because true adventurers couldn't save the day to begin with.
I think we have all heard: "Where's the cops when you need them?"
Well, they aren't around and its do or die time.
The problem nowadays is that if you take matters into your own hands anymore, the police will come to arrest you for being a vigilante no matter how justified you were in shooting the man robbing your house (at least in CA). Of course, that won't stop me from shooting the man robbing my house though, I'll just make sure he don't get up again to make it worth my while...
In related news, I'm afraid I'm going to have to confiscate your 3.5 rulebooks, and force you to convert to the new edition. Where do you live?
Unfortunately, no. We've got a rule in the DMG that reads thusly: "Evil creatures attacking other evil creatures automatically miss. When evil creatures want to attack other evil creatures, they have to find unaligned or good creatures to serve as their proxies. Dungeon Masters who choose to ignore this rule will be fined $500.00 per infraction, payable to the charity of their choice."
We didn't want to have to do it, but really, we couldn't imagine any other way to encourage the Dungeon Masters to play with the players, rather than playing with themselves.
The problem nowadays is that if you take matters into your own hands anymore, the police will come to arrest you for being a vigilante no matter how justified you were in shooting the man robbing your house (at least in CA). Of course, that won't stop me from shooting the man robbing my house though, I'll just make sure he don't get up again to make it worth my while...
Well, good thing this is another "realm" where that problem does not exist.
-Actually, that is true concerning D&D, now, too:
I am wearing my "Rich Baker must be stopped" t-shirt and stand by the words written there on it.
I am wearing my "Rich Baker must be stopped" t-shirt and stand by the words written there on it.
-I need a shirt like that.
The Realms really are dead if someone like Hocus-Smokus cannot see how they would benefit from the 4E Realms. The whole point of moving the timeline forward 100 years is so that DMs like you can have equal footing with their players. In the 4E Realms the players cannot possibly know more than the DM, unless they are quoting sources from antiquity. You above anyone else should be celebrating the changes.
-In Brian R. James(Iakhovas) I trust!!!:D I am going to put that in my Sig.
18
-I need a shirt like that.
Well, you are in luck, my good friend! I just happen to have many in stock. You can have your very own for just $29.99!!
How can I provide such a deal on these, you may ask?
Why, the answer is simple: gnome labor! Their mass exodus from the Realms has left many of these tiny fellows homeless and impovershed! With no true hope for survival, I give them their one and only chance for redemption--to be used as cheap labor!! You'd be amazed what these little suckers can do when you hang a porkchop just out of their reach. :D
So send me your credit card information, your desired quantity, and the color you want, and I'll be sure to ship you as many as you need!
And don't forget to purchase my newest in D&D fashion, the "Drizzt Happens" hoodie!
-Actually, that is true concerning D&D, now, too:
Some of us like 4E and yes I have been playing dnd a long time and I just wish the realms were dead instead just slapped around a bit.
Some of us like 4E and yes I have been playing dnd a long time and I just wish the realms were dead instead just slapped around a bit.
-Uh...Congratulations.
Hello my Lord.
I own the first FR box, and the first entry in the book detailing the Realms is Abeir-Toril, the planet where the continent of Fearun is. So what is it with this new continent called Abeir, that just appeared on Toril?
The world was always knowed as Abeir-Toril.
Was I drunk for the last 18 years?
-THIS thread should help answer some questions.
Scarily, I can see someone falling for that... hells, if they'll fall for the BBCs spaghetti tree hoax, why not yours...
Now now... English tree spaghetti is delicious.
Scarily, I can see someone falling for that... hells, if they'll fall for the BBCs spaghetti tree hoax, why not yours...
You'll have to explain the "spaghetti tree" thing. I, unfortunately, don't have full access to the BBC.
But my product is not a product of a hoax! Abercrombie & Fitch have already contacted me with offers to buy the line. It's a hit, I tell you! A big damn hit!!
18D
IN ED GREENWOOD & BRIAN R. JAMES I TRUST!:D
18D
Um...uh...dude...you take kissing ass to a whole new level. ;)
You'll have to explain the "spaghetti tree" thing. I, unfortunately, don't have full access to the BBC.
But my product is not a product of a hoax! Abercrombie & Fitch have already contacted me with offers to buy the line. It's a hit, I tell you! A big damn hit!!
Here's what you're looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_tree
It's what we're having for dinner tonight, in fact. 
Um...uh...dude...you take kissing ass to a whole new level. ;)
-:D How is that Kissing a$$? Just stating my opinion. I am going to trust ED & Brian to do the right thing in the 4E Realms. I didnt say in Richard Baker I trust, or Chris Perkins I trust. THEY STILL NEED TO BE STOPPED!!!;) :P :D
Now if The 4E Realms kick a$$ then I may just change my mind about who needs to be stopped.:P
18D
-:D How is that Kissing a$$? Just stating my opinion. I am going to trust ED & Brian to do the right thing in the 4E Realms. I didnt say in Richard Baker I trust, or Chris Perkins I trust. THEY STILL NEED TO BE STOPPED!!!;) :P :D
Now if The 4E Realms kick a$$ then I may just change my mind about who needs to be stopped.:P
18D
At this point, I can care less who you support. Your use of smiley's is overbearing.
You just HAVE to be a Mr. Rogers clone. ;)
At this point, I can care less who you support. Your use of smiley's is overbearing.
You just HAVE to be a Mr. Rogers clone. ;)
-
Just check out LK's sig, you will then understand. :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul :88E: 18D:P
Please tell me you haven't been locked in a cellar for 24 years...
Actually, my man, the only thing I got out of that was that Karsus has a far bigger ego then I ever expected. I never even looked at his Show and Hide crap until now.
Please tell me you haven't been locked in a cellar for 24 years...
-
:OMG! 
That is too funny. No I have been locked in a cellar for 35 going on 36 years. Well except when I joined the Army for 8 years, and life's other trauma's.18D;)
:D
It remains shocking to me to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Ed Greenwood, let alone have had the opportunity to work with him. I'm happy we've earned your trust 18Delta. I can only say that I'm a very huge fan of the Forgotten Realms and I strive to reflect that passion in all of my writing. I cannot wait for all of you to see the new campaign guide and to discuss it with many of you at Gen Con.
-
18D:D
Would a sentence like "Brian R. James are crap compared to Ed Greenwood, not even fit to wash his privy" make you feel better about being mentioned in the same sentence? :P ;)
...I am so very anxious to suckle at the nipple of your knowledge, my Lord.
Why not just move down about 2.5 feet and do what you really want to do?
Here's what you're looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_tree
-That is quite hillarious.
Actually, my man, the only thing I got out of that was that Karsus has a far bigger ego then I ever expected. I never even looked at his Show and Hide crap until now.
-That's actually the shortened version. I had a much longer version, until I chose to add the 'Hands of Karsus' SBLOCK.
Thank you my Lord. You are as wise as you are dark and handsome.
-I am neither dark, nor handsome, but close enough.
Unfortunately, the miserable mortal that I am still has a question, my Lord.
I know, I do not deserve so much attention from you. I am unworthy. Please forgive me.
But I must ask: When was the dreadful retcon curse used my Lord? When was Abeir-Toril turned into a naked Toril? Just on the verge of the 4th cataclysm or was this curse uttered earlier and this humble servant was on another plane (the third layer of Drunkennia probably)?
-The decision was made, we can only assume, during one of the "secret meetings" of the major 4e designers and contributors, that happened, as they've told us, starting in 2005. Subsequent products have slowly illuminated the "mystery" and revealed a bit more and more information.
I am so very anxious to suckle at the nipple of your knowledge, my Lord.
Thank you a million times, my Lord. If it was possible, I would give my sorceress of a girlfriend to my Lord, but the witch has a will of her own.
-Uh...Thank you.
Why not just move down about 2.5 feet and do what you really want to do?
-I'd rather have the girlfriend doing that, because of, well, the obvious.
Here's what you're looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_tree
Thank you for the history lesson.
-That's actually the shortened version. I had a much longer version, until I chose to add the 'Hands of Karsus' SBLOCK.
Thanks for keeping it short. I felt like I opened Jeffery Dahmer's freezer and found his trophy heads.
Thanks for keeping it short. I felt like I opened Jeffery Dahmer's freezer and found his trophy heads.
-I have about nine pages worth of MS Word document worth of compliments, and funny quotes from a couple of people.
-I have about nine pages worth of MS Word document worth of compliments, and funny quotes from a couple of people.
You're far worse than Dahmer could ever hope to aspire to.
Fried ear lobe anyone?
You know what they say... even negative publicity is good publicity.
So glad you approve... maybe we should order up shirts with similar sentiments and distribute them at various cons. :D
So glad you approve... maybe we should order up shirts with similar sentiments and distribute them at various cons. :D
I'm on it. The first line of "Brian James Must Be Popped" wife beaters is in production.
I'm gonna be rich, baby--yeah!
-What the hell does 'popped' mean, in this context? Is Brian a zit? Brian, are you a zit?
"Popped," as to have some sense knocked into him.
Though, some people seem to think he is a bit infectious and annoying, so he could be referenced as a "zit" in some views.
Nothing personal, Brian--its just business. What I put on the shirts I sell is not representative of my views--just my lust for the consumers hard earned cash. ;)
This thread is way harsh.
Its all in good fun!
:PHehehe, if my wife sees that t-shirt she may just buy it!
JudgeDookie, if I'm going to be stopped you need my middle initial R. in there!
Hehehe, if my wife sees that t-shirt she may just buy it!
Dammit, Brian!!! Now I have to put in a consumer recall!!!
Uh-hmmm...now, uh, if you would only be so kind as to PM me with your wifes credit card information, I'll be more than happy to see that she gets one. I'll even throw in a free "Drizzt Rocks!" hoodie for you, as well.
Dammit, Brian!!! Now I have to put in a consumer recall!!!
-That's probably a good idea, seeing as how it seems that shirt is made from spaghetti weevil, which are apparently still on the endangered species list.
-That's probably a good idea, seeing as how it seems that shirt is made from spaghetti weevil, which are apparently still on the endangered species list.
GNOMES!! They are made by impoverished GNOMES!
Stop trying to ruin the value of my prized product.
EDIT:
Just use a magic marker and say each one is signed by the 'artist'... you can double the price that way. :D
Hmmm... ?
Permanent marker, write in the 'R' yourself... then call it signed and double the price. Hard to get decent minions these days... so glad I didn't recruit you as one. :P
Redesigned for the Brian R. James initial ego!
Thanks, Stig. I'm cutting you in for 25%.
As for that minion thing, I think we would have a conflict of interest. Primarily, who saw who as the actual minion. ;)
GNOMES!! They are made by impoverished GNOMES!
-Sure, sure. They knit the strings from the spaghetti weevil, or whatever you do to make shirts. Crochet them? Sew them? Whatever...
-Sure, sure. They knit the strings from the spaghetti weevil, or whatever you do to make shirts. Crochet them? Sew them? Whatever...
Sput! Spit!
You dare disrespect my respectless gnomes?!!
You know not the tiny wrath you are invoking!!
BEWARE of the gnomes!
Sput! Spit!
You dare disrespect my respectless gnomes?!!
You know not the tiny wrath you are invoking!!
BEWARE of the gnomes!
-Whatever. I ask a simple question, and this is the kind of answer I get...
Alright, now add a big 'ol goatee to the dude in the picture and I think we're just about there.
Um, dude. The hunky model in the picture wasn't supposed to represent you. I'm trying to sell my wife beaters here--not how well you would look in one. There will be no goatee added, my man.
-Whatever. I ask a simple question, and this is the kind of answer I get...
Sure, sure. I'll answer your question, whatever it is you want answered. Crochet them? Sew them? Whatever...
;)
Ok, so if I get it right; until 2005 it was still named Abeir-Toril. After 2005, it was just called Toril and some info on Abeir was release now and then, to finally renamed it Abeir-Toril after the release of 4th edition.
-The planet was usually simply referenced as 'Toril', just because 'Toril' is much easier to continually write than 'Abeir-Toril', but it was still officially 'Abeir-Toril'. Come 4e Designing, and 'Abeir-Toril' is retconned to change and become 'Toril', when 'Abeir' is "flung" away by a group of "old deities", circa -31,000 DR, as per AGHotR. Skip to 4e, and 'Abeir' once more joins with 'Toril', making 'Abeir-Toril' once more. It sounds confusing, I know, but once you get it, and the timeline down, it's fairly simple.
That sounds a bit right. It is called retconning. It also SUCKS, unless it was Ed Greenwoods idea, then it ROCKS.
-Please...That's like saying that since George Lucas was the one to put Star Wars together, everything he does is awesome, to borrow from the 4e Design Team. Hardly. Ed, like everyone else, has his share of good ideas and bad ideas, simply by virtue of being a person. No one should be given a free pass, based on reputation.
Tee-he... :evillaugh
And I'm going to ignore the double-entendre there.
And I'm going to ignore the double-entendre there.
Whatever makes you feel best. It's your happiness that counts. Not mine. :D
-Please...That's like saying that since George Lucas was the one to put Star Wars together, everything he does is awesome, to borrow from the 4e Design Team. Hardly. Ed, like everyone else, has his share of good ideas and bad ideas, simply by virtue of being a person. No one should be given a free pass, based on reputation.
I thought that I'd point out that I was mostly kidding. No one deserves a free pass, period. I personally don't care for the change, no matter who it is coming from. In fact, I may even completely ignore it in my 4E game. Especially since they are probably never going to give any info for the Maztica area beyond a paragraph or two in 4E anyway. If they aren't going to flesh out the entire campaign world (or at least the areas MASSIVELY effected), why bother putting it in at all. There was absolutely no reason for most of the changes since they are not going to be telling us anything about them for the most part because they won't put out more books in 4E. It all just seems like a pointless destruction in my opinion.
Sorry for the rant. Needed to get that out I guess.
I thought that I'd point out that I was mostly kidding.
-Oh, okay. Oh, agreed with the rant, too.
-Oh, okay. Oh, agreed with the rant, too.
you should be a politician.......maybe for someone in November;)
you should be a politician.......maybe for someone in November;)
He--I mean, she--is. Lord Karsus is actually Hillary Clinton.
You haven't figured that out yet?
you should be a politician.......maybe for someone in November;)
-You're not the first who has said that. It is a field that appeals to me, but I do not have the necessary connections, nor do I have the will or stomach to make the "hard decisions"- who deserves the money? The poor, starving people here, or the poor, starving people there.
-That said, haven't seen you around for a while. How's your dad?
He--I mean, she--is. Lord Karsus is actually Hillary Clinton.
-Hardly. I'd rather be an even lower lifeform than her.
-Hardly. I'd rather be an even lower lifeform than her.
Too bad.
I would hope for more from you. At least you are intelligent.
Whatever makes you feel best. It's your happiness that counts. Not mine. :D
Glad you're finally coming around and seeing that. :P ;)
Glad you're finally coming around and seeing that. :P ;)
And its those that see through the sarcasm that truly see the light. ;)
-You're not the first who has said that. It is a field that appeals to me, but I do not have the necessary connections, nor do I have the will or stomach to make the "hard decisions"- who deserves the money? The poor, starving people here, or the poor, starving people there.
-That said, haven't seen you around for a while. How's your dad?
He died, last week.
I would go into politics but my wife won't let me.
He died, last week.
Damn. Sorry dude.
He died, last week.
-Eh, I had a sneaking suspicion that might have been why you haven't been on for the past couple of weeks. My condolences.
So........back to realm stuff,
Down with the Tyrant!
Long live 4e Realms!
Down with the Tyrant!
-Down with Bane!
Long live 4e Realms!
-Down with the Bane!
Karsus, since I have your attention.......if you would have to name a cabal of gnomes bent on seizing control of an unstable Spell Plagued Fearun. They would be using an ancient forge they found to mass produce loyal but free thinking army of medium sized constructs as the bulk of their force.
-The War Forgers? :D
-I was being serious, though. The name actually sounds pretty good!
I'll title the campaign , "The Forgers of War"
Ya know, I think Lord Karsus should run a game over on the Play by Post forum.
-Yeah, why's that?
-And, where are the Play-by-Post forums?
-Yeah, why's that?
-And, where are the Play-by-Post forums?
A, you know your stuff it seems.
B, They're in the Gleemax section....it's called Play by Post Haven.
Besides you can just take who ever you want over there for a closed game.
A, you know your stuff it seems.
-That, I do. That said, I don't particularly like Play-By-Post games. It lacks "something", and that "something" is what I like my D&D games to have.
-That, I do. That said, I don't particularly like Play-By-Post games. It lacks "something", and that "something" is what I like my D&D games to have.
Fair enough, pbp isn't for everyone but since I'm the only person that will DM here I'm not been a player in two years.
Fair enough, pbp isn't for everyone but since I'm the only person that will DM here I'm not been a player in two years.
-Well, good luck finding a DM. I believe the Play-By-Post game at www.forgottenrealmsvault.com is still accepting new players. Check it out.
-The "lack" is definitley the not being able to sit, see, speak to, and all of those other physical things you do with players. I know when I DM, I give all of my NPCs different voices (and, my PCs do the same thing), I like to use certain props, like making old-looking maps, and other things like that.
Indeed. Personality is everything with a character, unless you are all hack-n-slash. I shocked the hell out of everyone when I brought in a half-retarded dwarf with a Brooklyn accent one time--and, no, this isn't bull
or a slight. It was my greatest character ever. Indeed. Personality is everything with a character, unless you are all hack-n-slash. I shocked the hell out of everyone when I brought in a half-retarded dwarf with a Brooklyn accent one time--and, no, this isn't bull
-I hate Dwarves. Same thing with Half-Orcs. Never played them, ever, in...like5 years of playing D&D.
-I hate Dwarves. Same thing with Half-Orcs. Never played them, ever, in...like5 years of playing D&D.
You gotta play them all, my man--even humans. I hated humans--what the hell is special about them in D&D?
It's a good way to get a good feel of the races when you have to play one.
My very first time gaming--playing D&D of all things--I was given a gnome character.
By the third session I was removed from play, simply because I didn't act like a gnome and wanted to kill everything with a bloodlust.
How the hell was I supposed to know?--no one explained I had to roleplay race traits.
Either way, afterwords, I gained a better respect for gnomes--despite I the fact that I couldn't go into a blood frenzy anymore.
You gotta play them all, my man--even humans. I hated humans--what the hell is special about them in D&D?
-An extra feat, and extra four(?) skill points at Level 1, and an extra 1 skillpoint for every level after? And the ability to blend in and draw no attention to yourself in most places?
It's a good way to get a good feel of the races when you have to play one.
My very first time gaming--playing D&D of all things--I was given a gnome character.
-Gnomes, I have played, but I have trouble with them. I often- and, in my campaign building, I seem to do this a lot- transfer between the "Tinker" aspect, and the "Little Dwarves" aspect.
I had a gnome PC with a 6 cha. He looked like that guy from the Island of Dr Moreau and he had a long pointy white beard. He was pretty evil, but a fun loving guy. If that fun had to do with undead.;) What a sick little SOB.
-An extra feat, and extra four(?) skill points at Level 1, and an extra 1 skillpoint for every level after? And the ability to blend in and draw no attention to yourself in most places?
Again, my man, this is where there is a definite divide between us--I'm a bit old school. I began playing on the verge of 2e and into it. The best thing for humans at that point was that they could take any class they wanted without penalty. They got nothing else.
That is nuts. Who is to say a g
nome cannot be given to rages?
I had a gnome PC with a 6 cha. He looked like that guy from the Island of Dr Moreau and he had a long pointy white beard. He was pretty evil, but a fun loving guy. If that fun had to do with undead.;) What a sick little SOB.
Oh, I'm with ya. I think the problem was that I kinda came into their campaign and got too into the fun:
DM
ME
Ranger dork
"Ok, you have the goblin prisoner. What do you want to do?"
"I want to break his knee cap."
You want to break his knee cap? Why?"
So he knows that I mean business when I start asking him questions."
Man...I mean, man...you're breaking his knee cap."
He's a ****in' goblin! What the **** else do you expect me to do--give him a ****ing cookie and ask him to be nice?"
Well, you decide what you want to do."
"Decide? I want to break his ****ing knee cap--whats the problem?"
(another gamer--Elf Ranger)
"You can't torture a goblin."
"Why not?"
""You just can't"
"Says who?"
"Says the rules."
"What ****in' rules?" Its a roleplaying game."
"I watch, Ebon" (the gnome I was playing)
"You watch me?
"Yes"
"What? Why?"
"Because I don't like the way you are playing."
"What? The game?"
"Yes. The game. You're not playing a proper warrior and you're not playing a gnome."
(I sputter, spit, do all I can to control my temper)
"I put my axe in the goblin's head." (granted, I was just personally P.O.ed at this point)
(DM and ranger look at each other)
" grabs the hilt of your axe before you can bring it down.
I rip it out of his hands!
("DM" rolls D20)
You can't do it--he pulls it away from you.
I try and get my axe back.
You attack him?
No, I try to get my axe back.
So you try and get your axe back?
Yes!
Roll a D20.
...
...
You wake up with ropes tied around your hands and legs, You can't move.
Try and break free...
Again, my man, this is where there is a definite divide between us--I'm a bit old school. I began playing on the verge of 2e and into it. The best thing for humans at that point was that they could take any class they wanted without penalty. They got nothing else.
-Ah, I forgot that they can also multiclass without penalty. I don't use those rules for multiclassing, so I often forget.
-And, concerning that exchange there...A definite case of DM railroading, but, at the same time...
-Ah, I forgot that they can also multiclass without penalty. I don't use those rules for multiclassing, so I often forget.
-And, concerning that exchange there...A definite case of DM railroading, but, at the same time...
Yes, a 2e hang on.
As for the "railroading," please trust me that it was completely ridiculous.
My buddy brought me into the gaming group--and I always adhered towards him, because he was sort of the patron.
But at this point he had shut up completely, simply because it had become a hint-hint game that had become stagnant, with nobody doing anything to further the adventure.
Therefore, it was scrapped long before I decided a goblin needed to speak up.
-I hate Dwarves. Same thing with Half-Orcs. Never played them, ever, in...like5 years of playing D&D.
Now thats sacrilege, Dwarves are better than any other core book race.
Now thats sacrilege, Dwarves are better than any other core book race.
That doesn't mean you have to play them, though.
Now thats sacrilege, Dwarves are better than any other core book race.
-We already know you're crazy, so no need to keep on reminding us. ;)
-We already know you're crazy, so no need to keep on reminding us. ;)
And I suppose you're going to tell me pansy/emo elves are better?:P
And I suppose you're going to tell me pansy/emo elves are better?:P
-Yes. By far.
Humans are created in the Divine Image of The Gods themselves. Thus they are the pinnacle of creation and Divine in themselves. Humans are the best Race in the Core Book.:P
-Actually, concerning the Forgotten Realms, as least, Humans are one of the races who were not (as far as we know) created by a divine entity. Orcs were created by Gruumsh, Elves by the Seldarine, Dwarves by the Mordinsamman, Gnomes by the Gnomish pantheon, Halflings by Yondella, and so on...
Actually, I believe it mentions somewhere that AO created Humans.
And why would he do that?
He has talked to them, he has acknowledged them. Otherwise there would not have been Cyric, Midnight and Kelemvor as Gods.
Now you are just reaching for retarded technicalities, my man. ;)
The only reason he engaged with them at that time was to exalt them to godhood--where his realm of influence begins and ends.
-The origins of Humans have been purposefully been left alone throughout the history of D&D as not to inflame groups/individuals who support creationism or evolution, by supporting one theory or the other.
True, about evolution-creationism as far as general D&D. Human origin has never been officially stated for D&D settings. When they published the first Deities and Demigods handbook in 1E, which had some "origin/creation" stuff in it, with respect to some pantheons, it was met with... craziness. So they quickly took it off the market and re-drafted the entire book to leave out religious implications as best possible.
But interestingly, at least for the Realms, it was implied long ago (perhaps as far back as Ed's Pages from the Mages, I don't recall exactly) that many -if not all- humans on Faerun got there by traversing portals from here into the Realms; then we on Earth promptly forgot about all those portals and Realms on this side, hence they became "Forgotten Realms". This appears to have been de-emphasized or not mentioned in 2E onward. I always liked that tidbit, as it explained the carbon-copy nature of some of the Realms to old Earth cultures.
Dwarf=
But interestingly, at least for the Realms, it was implied long ago (perhaps as far back as Ed's Pages from the Mages, I don't recall exactly) that many -if not all- humans on Faerun got there by traversing portals from here into the Realms; then we on Earth promptly forgot about all those portals and Realms on this side, hence they became "Forgotten Realms". This appears to have been de-emphasized or not mentioned in 2E onward. I always liked that tidbit, as it explained the carbon-copy nature of some of the Realms to old Earth cultures.
-Certain ethnic groups are indeed interlopers. Shou Humans and Zakharan Humans, for example. The Mulhorandi and the Untheric, also. That said, however, Humans are listed on the "official" list of Creator Races- that is, the first recorded races native to and living on Abeir-Toril. This would mean that they either are native creatures, as the other Creator Races are, or migrated to Realmspace even further back than -35,000. However, texts specifically mention that around this time period, Humans were extremely unadvanced, still using primitive tools, using basic hunter-gatherer techniques, and living in caves. That hints, at least to me, of a naturally evolving genesis for this older group of Humans. Of course, though, it's still sufficiently vague to allow anyone to draw their own conclusions.
All of that still doesn't change the fact that Dwarves eat everybody else's lunch.
-Sure, 'cause they are fat, smelly bastards. Of course they are going to want to eat everyone else's lunch.
-Certain ethnic groups are indeed interlopers. Shou Humans and Zakharan Humans, for example. The Mulhorandi and the Untheric, also. That said, however, Humans are listed on the "official" list of Creator Races- that is, the first recorded races native to and living on Abeir-Toril. This would mean that they either are native creatures, as the other Creator Races are, or migrated to Realmspace even further back than -35,000. However, texts specifically mention that around this time period, Humans were extremely unadvanced, still using primitive tools, using basic hunter-gatherer techniques, and living in caves. That hints, at least to me, of a naturally evolving genesis for this older group of Humans. Of course, though, it's still sufficiently vague to allow anyone to draw their own conclusions.
Wouldn't it be fun if the Sarrukh experiment went back further than early Netheril? Perhaps they imported primitive humans and seeded them throughout Faerun as part of a still-ongoing research study.
Nah, that'd be too Farscape. ;)
Wouldn't it be fun if the Sarrukh experiment went back further than early Netheril? Perhaps they imported primitive humans and seeded them throughout Faerun as part of a still-ongoing research study.
-It's quite possible, if you want it to be, in your own campaign. That said, there isn't canon information that supports that notion, but it is a theory that can't be disproven with what we have thus far.
-Sure, 'cause they are fat, smelly bastards. Of course they are going to want to eat everyone else's lunch.
You forgot alcoholic in most cases.......besides everyone else smells weird to dwarves. Except Lady Alustriels dwarven page whom I cannot recall his name.
You forgot alcoholic in most cases.......besides everyone else smells weird to dwarves.
-Ah, you're right! I did forget 'alcoholics'...
-Sure, have my share.
I imagine this is why he is more Stinker than Stigger.
Fish.
You philistines have no appreciation of real food...
Um...if we were Philistines, we'd be eating fish.
As is, I like to club cows over the head and toss them on a plate. Therefore, I'm a true American.
Um...if we were Philistines, we'd be eating fish.
As is, I like to club cows over the head and toss them on a plate. Therefore, I'm a true American.
A true American would shoot them, not club them, you ignorant foreigner. Particularly true of a supposed Texan... presuming I'm recalling vaguely glanced at text correctly. :P
A true American would shoot them, not club them, you ignorant foreigner. Particularly true of a supposed Texan... presuming I'm recalling vaguely glanced at text correctly. :P
INSULTED!!!
How--I--huh?--you!!
TEXAS!!?!
Where am I located?
Might have been Chicago... in which case you definitely should have shot it Cabrini Green style...
Indeed, Chicago.
And you would be quite surprised how many more people get "clubbed" than "shot" there. You generally can't get busted for attempted murder if if you're just "assaulting" someone with a blunt weapon--no matter how much you'd like to kill them in the process.
You should stop by some time. I'll show you around. ;)
Don't care much for Chicago... far better than New York (or the rest of the East Coast for that matter)
Hey...!
Don't care much for Chicago... far better than New York (or the rest of the East Coast for that matter), but I still don't like it. I'll take California Wine Country over all of them any day... :P
Elf!
Hey...!
I thought you were "Somewhere in Faerun?"
I thought you were "Somewhere in Faerun?"
I am, but who said I can't be in more than one place at once? ;)
I am, but who said I can't be in more than one place at once? ;)
I hate you damn mystical people. Why can't I be here and on the set of Teletubbies at the same time?
-Rino, meet JD. JD, meet Rino.
Why don't I trust that introduction from you? Feel like I've been transferred off to a different high school or something.
Though, indeed, nice to meet you, Rino.
But I have to know if "Rino" is like ree-no or rye-no.
If I have to think of you has a horned beast, then you are going to have to change that avatar.
Greetings, JD, pleasure to meet you.:D
Ditto.
But I have to know if "Rino" is like ree-no or rye-no.
Whatever you feel most comfortable with.:D
Whatever you feel most comfortable with.:D
Fine. Nice to meet you, Bob.
Blame Karsus--he's the one that starts all this crap.
-I will Internet punch you if you don't behave. Krevon taught me how to.
Fine. Nice to meet you, Bob.
That won't work, I'm female.
I will Internet punch you if you don't behave.
Thanks.;)
Thanks.;)
-If he misbehaves, let me know.
-I will Internet punch you if you don't behave. Krevon taught me how to.
If you were going to do that, you would have done it a while back.
And I'd punch back, you Goonie! If you don't lay off, I'm tellin' Big Mamma and she'll squash your ass.
On that note:
That won't work, I'm female.
My sincere apologies, my dear lady.
I so often use Bob, Joe or Bill to simplify the 27 syllable names of people that I tend to disregard gender.
I humbly apologize.
If you were going to do that, you would have done it a while back.
-Well, now there are new rules. I guess.
And I'd punch back, you Goonie!
-Suffice to say, I'm not impressed. ;) :P
Hey...!
he doesn't know what he's talking about, the east coast rules
-Well, now there are new rules. I guess.
Funny--just said that.
-Suffice to say, I'm not impressed. ;) :P
And, due to my statement, neither have I. ;)
Fine. Nice to meet you, Bob.
Blame Karsus--he's the one that starts all this crap.
On behalf of Lord Karsus..........*punch*
On behalf of Lord Karsus..........*punch*
I'm going to pretend that was a very large mosquito that got a hold of me, because I know you didn't just cyber punch me.
-If he misbehaves, let me know.
Will do.;)
My sincere apologies, my dear lady.
I so often use Bob, Joe or Bill to simplify the 27 syllable names of people that I tend to disregard gender.
I humbly apologize.
Apology accepted.;)
As for the name, just call me Rino, or RF, or some shorted variation thereof.
he doesn't know what he's talking about, the east coast rules
Yes.
Regarding the topic ... If I want to play Earthdawn, I'll play Earthdawn. If I want to play FR, I'll play FR. The new FR are looking more FR in name and Earthdawn in setting to me so far.
Don't know anything about Earthdawn, but I agree with your sentiment.
Regarding the topic ... If I want to play Earthdawn, I'll play Earthdawn. If I want to play FR, I'll play FR. The new FR are looking more FR in name and Earthdawn in setting to me so far.
Didn't even know Earthdawn was still around.
Though, from what I remember, the two settings aren't that close.
Apology accepted.;)
As for the name, just call me Rino, or RF, or some shorted variation thereof.
I'll call you Rino. Or maybe Reno911. Using "RF" would remind me too much of Ralph Furley off Threes Company, then we'd be right back with you being manly again. ;)
Regarding the topic ... If I want to play Earthdawn, I'll play Earthdawn. If I want to play FR, I'll play FR. The new FR are looking more FR in name and Earthdawn in setting to me so far.
-What is Earthdawn like?
-What is Earthdawn like?
You familiar with Shadowrun at all? It was essentially Shadowrun set in a D&D like setting--sans cyberware and crap. Only played it a couple times, but it was ok. It was just getting going when I stopped playin'.
You familiar with Shadowrun at all? It was essentially Shadowrun set in a D&D like setting--sans cyberware and crap. Only played it a couple times, but it was ok. It was just getting going when I stopped playin'.
-I know Shadowrun as an SNES video game, but that's all. And, even then, still, vaguely. But, from what I recall, that game does seem to have the cyber motif.
-I know Shadowrun as an SNES video game, but that's all. And, even then, still, vaguely. But, from what I recall, that game does seem to have the cyber motif.
The video games were complete crap--totally destroyed potentials that might have role played with it.
Basically, the overall spiel was that magic ebbs and flows in cycles on earth. Shortly into the 21st century, magic returns. People start giving birth to elves and dwarves, others "mutate" into orcs and trolls. Dragons return, spells start working, etc. It was a very cool game--have about $700 worth of 2nd edition books at home.
Either way, Shadowrun was set in the "6th world." The age of non-magic before that--where we are today--is the "5th world." Earthdawn is the "4th world" spin off of Shadowrun. It was how FASA, who at the time owned it, looked to draw away the D&D crowd. And it actually worked in some cases, because the rules for magic and combat were much more like they are in 3ed, rather than what they were at the time in 2nd.
-What is Earthdawn like?
World was ravaged by demon hordes and all, people fled into large subterran fortresses called "kaers" and came out at the end of this plague. Essentially that is when the setting starts.
Various races out and about - lizardfolk, elves of any colour you like (though no real subrace stuff), stone-skinned "behemots" called obsidians (methinks) and all that. Demons are rare but still at large and quite dangerous. Haven't played it since the very late 1990s though, but it immediately sprang to mind when I heard about Spellplague, strange places and new races.
I'm going to pretend that was a very large mosquito that got a hold of me, because I know you didn't just cyber punch me.
*punch* You just got cyber pwned :P
*punch* You just got cyber pwned :P
That's it, bub!! No more Mr. Nice Dookie Judge Guy!!!
**Burrito Smack**
How ya like that? Huh!? Want some picante sauce upside your head, too?!?!
I'll take your knee caps out with my gordita if you keep it up!
The Realms really are dead if someone like Hocus-Smokus cannot see how they would benefit from the 4E Realms. The whole point of moving the timeline forward 100 years is so that DMs like you can have equal footing with their players. In the 4E Realms the players cannot possibly know more than the DM, unless they are quoting sources from antiquity. You above anyone else should be celebrating the changes.
Funny. I have exactly the opposite problem. I knew so much more than my players that I couldn't count on established material to deal with their actions effectively.
I don't benefit from the 4e Realms at all, Brian. Everyone in my game will be dead except the people with Tasmia's Heart, Genasi, and Elves, and one minotaur.
You're a great guy, and you're very devoted, and I'm sure that someone paid you to say that, but we just don't feel the LOVE. That's the problem. We feel highjacked instead.
And overcoming that feeling of robbery? I don't think Wizards can do it. This is like changing the formula for Coca Cola. Your company will regret doing it.
Zanan did a good job of giving an overview. The way I explain it is that Shadowrun is high fantasy mixed with cyberpunk, whereas Earthdawn is high fantasy mixed with horror. Those "demons" (called Horrors) tortured everyone not hidden in kaers to death for several thousand years, and tortured the earth when the people ran out. The mana sphere (Weave equivalent) was severely damaged, making casting spells hazardous. And the Horrors are really scary. Way scarier than your average baatezu or tanar'ri.
Well, if people start using blood magic...
-The recent Bloodwalk novel introduced (as far as I know) Blood Magus' officially into the setting.
...and sprouting thorns out their hiney's...
-The new Tieflings have those horns on their foreheads. But, are there more horns, we just don't know about?
-The recent Bloodwalk novel introduced (as far as I know) Blood Magus' officially into the setting.
Was this guy a freak sideshow created for uniqueness or was he practicing something adept to the the norm?
-The new Tieflings have those horns on their foreheads. But, are there more horns, we just don't know about?
No, I literally meant thorns in this case. Certain elves in Earthdawn would perform a ritual that would continually force thorns to grow through their skin. This had the two sided affect of enhancing their use of blood magic and keeping them in terrible pain, preventing the majority of the weaker Horrors from attacking them (their kind fed off emotions and such and very few but the most powerful could deal with pain).
Was this guy a freak sideshow created for uniqueness or was he practicing something adept to the the norm?
Girl, not guy.
There's no way to know how many bloodwalkers are in the Realms, but I wouldn't say they are the "norm".
Girl, not guy.
There's no way to know how many bloodwalkers are in the Realms, but I wouldn't say they are the "norm".
Being a man just ain't good enough for you, huh? ;)
And to think, I was going to rephrase that question just in case you were reading and the character was a female.
Krevon, you even pull that arm back and you get the gordita.
So when did Bloodwalkers come in? Just in this novel, or was there an actual sourcebook with their info?
Being a man just ain't good enough for you, huh? ;)
And to think, I was going to rephrase that question just in case you were reading and the character was a female.
The character in question (the bloodwalker) was female.
So when did Bloodwalkers come in? Just in this novel, or was there an actual sourcebook with their info?
I think the Bloodwalker PrC originally appeared in Tome and Blood, and probably was later updated in another core splatbook (don't know for sure, though). In other words, this PrC first appeared in generic sourcebooks. The author of the novel decided to use the PrC for one of his characters.
I am going to figure out a way to bring all of my players to the future one way or the other since they want to play in that time and want to do it with their old PCs. Coming up with the idea is not tough. Waiting to see if they wish to play in that time will be the tough part. I am pretty certain they are fine with it though.
I though you just said they wanted to do that?
The character in question (the bloodwalker) was female.
Duly noted. Geez, lady!!
I think the Bloodwalker PrC originally appeared in Tome and Blood, and probably was later updated in another core splatbook (don't know for sure, though). In other words, this PrC first appeared in generic sourcebooks. The author of the novel decided to use the PrC for one of his characters.
Give me the authors name. I'm sending Vince and Vinnie to steal his twinkies.
Give me the authors name. I'm sending Vince and Vinnie to steal his twinkies.
James P. Davis.
If we do it I have several ideas for getting them to the future.
James P. Davis.
Thank you , maam. You can consider those twinkies "gone" and will no longer need to fear them.
Was this guy a freak sideshow created for uniqueness or was he practicing something adept to the the norm?
-The character in question was practicing a fairly rare art. That said, though, there are other characters with Blood Magus levels in the Forgotten Realms. I recall recently reading about one in a sourcebook I was doing research in.
No, I literally meant thorns in this case. Certain elves in Earthdawn would perform a ritual that would continually force thorns to grow through their skin. This had the two sided affect of enhancing their use of blood magic and keeping them in terrible pain, preventing the majority of the weaker Horrors from attacking them (their kind fed off emotions and such and very few but the most powerful could deal with pain).
-Oh, I see. Interesting idea...
Duly noted. Geez, lady!!
-Hey, watch it.
-The character in question was practicing a fairly rare art. That said, though, there are other characters with Blood Magus levels in the Forgotten Realms. I recall recently reading about one in a sourcebook I was doing research in.
Well, Rino...no...don't...do...it...911!!
(sigh) Sorry
That Ri-...-no lady said it was a generic supplement, so I must be worried.
-Oh, I see. Interesting idea...
Actually, it was. Besides D&D, Shadowrun--and, I think Earthdawn--seriously got in to detail. They definitely created "lore" for the story. If you get a chance, I highly recommend giving it a shot.
-Hey, watch it.
Um, no. I will cater to the lady, but I will not fawn over her like a precious gem. No offense, Rino. I simply got 10 years on Karsus and see no point in it anymore. ;)
DEIT - Karsus PM
That Ri-...-no lady said it was a generic supplement, so I must be worried.
-Plenty of things that started out as generic D&d things are, more or less, "common" Realms things. Bladesingers, for example. Bladesingers are originally generic.
Actually, it was. Besides D&D, Shadowrun--and, I think Earthdawn--seriously got in to detail. They definitely created "lore" for the story. If you get a chance, I highly recommend giving it a shot.
-I like the concept. I might use something like that in my own campaign. I currently have the BBEG using a geas to control an NPC that used to be neutral towards the party, but, using something like that might be a better way to indicate that the NPC isn't necessarily being evil on his own accord- even though I thought I made it clear based on the BBEG leaving behind a used-up Wand of Geas. Something like that could also work for a slavery arc I have going on in the metaplot. That arc has to do with Elves, so that works even better.
-I like the concept. I might use something like that in my own campaign. I currently have the BBEG using a geas to control an NPC that used to be neutral towards the party, but, using something like that might be a better way to indicate that the NPC isn't necessarily being evil on his own accord- even though I thought I made it clear based on the BBEG leaving behind a used-up Wand of Geas. Something like that could also work for a slavery arc I have going on in the metaplot. That arc has to do with Elves, so that works even better.
Well, as BBEG is a relative term to these and relative boards, I would need a definition before I could reply to that one.
As for your own campaign--hit me up, baby!! D&D and Shadowrun shoved into a blender, stirred into a stew and made ripe by Bejebuz is righteous!! I got the info--just let me know.
Now stand it back--here come the Dookie dance:
Well, as BBEG is a relative term to these and relative boards, I would need a definition before I could reply to that one.
-I recently learned what it meant, as well: "Big Bad Evil Guy". Basically, the current main antagonist of a campaign.
As for your own campaign--hit me up, baby!! D&D and Shadowrun shoved into a blender, stirred into a stew and made ripe by Bejebuz is righteous!! I got the info--just let me know.
-Not much Shadowrun, or Earthdawn, but I like the aforementioned 'horns/thorns'. Modified, of course, a bit to suit my needs.
-I recently learned what it meant, as well: "Big Bad Evil Guy". Basically, the current main antagonist of a campaign.
For the sake of sweet Bejebuz, the next thing you know we'll have everyone throwing acronym's out for My Mothers Mop Mop's Faster Than A Trolls Rag.
MMMMFTATR!!!
Remember that!! MMMMFTATR = POWER!!!
-Not much Shadowrun, or Earthdawn, but I like the aforementioned 'horns/thorns'. Modified, of course, a bit to suit my needs.
EDIT - Oh, and this probably wouldn't work without true role players in your game. That's what this is all about.
EDIT - Oh, and this probably wouldn't work without true role players in your game. That's what this is all about.
-The way I am envisioning it, it's something the PCs see/hear, if ever, but do not actually..."contract". I am envisioning it as something that slavemasters use to control their slaves in a certain magocratic dictatorship. Something like that. Basically, they allow slavemasters to know where their slaves are, communicate with them, and cause them pain when/if necessary. If I recall correctly, the original D&D movie (which I fell asleep while watching, mind you) used something to that effect on the evil villain with the blue lipstick.
My second point to address is that the most glorious part of the Realms is the wealth of knowledge available. Certainly, there needs to be unexplored holes on the map and if the world map was becoming a bit too crowded aren't there other alternatives to bring back some of the wonder factor? The simplest way to address this and target the Realms at new players would have been, "Hey, we're opening up the lands far to the south of the Great Rift." or " new continent A has been discovered..." It doesn't have to be some some cut and paste version of another historical culture lurking on the fringe. Maybe a spread of lands and city states done Realms style. This could provide a kiddie pool setting for new Realms fans, different lands to explore providing new fodder for writers, and back to the old trusty gray boxed set maybe the designers could rope off areas like they did in old Sembia with the disclaimer , "We vow never to touch these areas or discuss them again.....do your worst..." In this framework, die hard Realms fans still have the tried and true mapped lands of the north, the thrill of sending the players to a new Realms flavored unknown subcontinent, and new players have a fresh playground to roam about without getting mauled by the entire FR library.
Sorry I am old and long winded..... but I am curious to hear your opinions.....
If I am correct in these assumptions, which I apologize if I am not (I am certainly out of the loop and apparently suffer from poor taste - I loved Maztica!), my first question is do many campaigns suffer from this over abundance of god like NPC's storming the gates and stealing the PC's thunder?
I doubt it. People like to say it's a big problem, but they rarely ever given any concrete examples. If they do, it's usually of the "I know someone who knows someone" style of anecdotes. Anecdotal evidence (even from personal experience) does not work very well as solid proof of anything, though--in this case, having experienced a case of bad DMing with regards to high level NPCs doesn't mean that it's a serious problem for most gamers and something that needs to be addressed within the setting.
Keep in mind that they (WotC) shrunk the map in the wash when 3e came out, so they're the ones who took away a lot of the mysterious areas in the first place...
Yes, that's right. The 2E map had a lot of "empty" space in it. When 3E came out, WotC thought that was a problem.
Otherwise, could hardly agree more, although quite a few similar sentiments are floating around here someplace.
Indeed.
I have perused the many message boards to discover that the two major reasons for this revision, in my opinion, were that the designers felt that high level uber NPC's dominated play and in addition the massive wealth of Realms related lore was turning into a damning brick of knowledge intimidating new players from foraying into the world.
-Yes, what is happening can be boiled down to those two very things. More or less, of course.
If I am correct in these assumptions, which I apologize if I am not (I am certainly out of the loop and apparently suffer from poor taste - I loved Maztica!), my first question is do many campaigns suffer from this over abundance of god like NPC's storming the gates and stealing the PC's thunder?
-The reasons for many of the changes are not due to fact, but due to perception. This much, the designers have said. Apparently, many of those who do not like the Forgotten Realms are because of the misperception that this is what happens. It is likely that they feel this way due to poor formulative experiences with the setting, such as a bad DM doing this to them.
Shouldn't high level NPC's be regulated to a patron like figure or background props?
-Yup, but, for whatever reason, many DMs do not possess the ability to do this.
Even within higher level frameworks, when the players were coping with world shattering plots, they wouldn't dare call in Storm or Blackstaff. Why share the glory?
-I personally believe that this is a problem seperating metagame knowledge and character knowledge.
My second point to address is that the most glorious part of the Realms is the wealth of knowledge available. Certainly, there needs to be unexplored holes on the map and if the world map was becoming a bit too crowded aren't there other alternatives to bring back some of the wonder factor? The simplest way to address this and target the Realms at new players would have been, "Hey, we're opening up the lands far to the south of the Great Rift." or " new continent A has been discovered..." It doesn't have to be some some cut and paste version of another historical culture lurking on the fringe. Maybe a spread of lands and city states done Realms style. This could provide a kiddie pool setting for new Realms fans, different lands to explore providing new fodder for writers, and back to the old trusty gray boxed set maybe the designers could rope off areas like they did in old Sembia with the disclaimer , "We vow never to touch these areas or discuss them again.....do your worst..." In this framework, die hard Realms fans still have the tried and true mapped lands of the north, the thrill of sending the players to a new Realms flavored unknown subcontinent, and new players have a fresh playground to roam about without getting mauled by the entire FR library.
Sorry I am old and long winded..... but I am curious to hear your opinions.....
-Go figure. Again, the perception that you needed to know everything in order to play was there. Obviously, that's not true, or there would not have been an influx of new players over the past twenty years, who have 'entered' into the Forgotten Realms. But, the perception is/was there, and the designers have said that they are doing things based on perception, and not fact.
Yes those few 10th and 11th lvl spells are too much and now lets really nerf wizard spells by showcaseing 3rd lvl spls as 9th lvl spls. Woot....lame-o change-o! Now we can be as lame as the "wizards" that conan faces!
Not only that lets make solo creatures! Now you can really feel like a pathetic PC while the DM can go muahahahaha I am POWER GAMEING....boom crack loud thunder....blah fooey. Yeah look at me...I am just a lame PC who does not stand a chance against a creature many levels lower then me since it is a SOLO (big god voice). Ewww....waiter there is a WOW in my DnD. I just know someone DMing is gonna use solo creatures...blah.
Yes the Realms are dead.....so I doubt I will buy any new novels set in neo "Forgotten Realms". Since I play mostly wizards I doubt 4e will be to my taste.....though I could be wrong, only time will tell.
Yeah I was hopeing for a vast new floating continent....
-There are various new floating landmasses. They are called Motes. Mountain Motes have mountains on them, Jungle Motes have jungles on them, and so on and so forth.
Instead of nerfing spells we could actually have the old goddess of magic come back and smack around the stupid one that is around now.
-Mystryl is Mystra.
Then she could cut off only 12th lvl spls there by keeping some silly mentally deranged archmagus from destroying neo-netheril.
-Mystra altered the Weave to prevent all True Dweomers from being cast, not just the 12th Level spells, because they all damaged the Weave in a massive manner.
Yes, that's right. The 2E map had a lot of "empty" space in it. When 3E came out, WotC thought that was a problem.
I've got an FR map on my computer that I'm not sure about the edition. It's not done in the usual 2e or 3e style. Is there a way I can figure out which edition it's from? I know 3e took the axe to a lot of spaces, but is there something specific I can look for and see, "Oh, this map doesn't have X, it must therefore be 3e," or whatever?
-There are various new floating landmasses. They are called Motes. Mountain Motes have mountains on them, Jungle Motes have jungles on them, and so on and so forth.
Cool. I like....now about claiming one of the smaller ones and nameing it "Insert name here" Enclave!
-Mystryl is Mystra.
Not really. One had been the goddess of magic while the other is the goddess of magic yet each incarnation does things differently in some ways. Which is why I want the old one to come back with one difference no 12th lvl spells!
-Mystra altered the Weave to prevent all True Dweomers from being cast, not just the 12th Level spells, because they all damaged the Weave in a massive manner.
Well tell her to rework the weave so they don't. I mean she is the goddess of magic! Get er done!
I've got an FR map on my computer that I'm not sure about the edition. It's not done in the usual 2e or 3e style. Is there a way I can figure out which edition it's from? I know 3e took the axe to a lot of spaces, but is there something specific I can look for and see, "Oh, this map doesn't have X, it must therefore be 3e," or whatever?
If you were able to show it to us I'm sure we could tell you.
It's always possible, of course, that it's a fan-made map (that is, if you got it off the internet).-Mystra altered the Weave to prevent all True Dweomers from being cast, not just the 12th Level spells, because they all damaged the Weave in a massive manner.
Shar's propraganda.
Mystra re-worked the Weave to make True Dweomers the only means of casting over 9th level. Or if one looks at True Dweomers as level 10 magic instead of a separate form then she reworked the Weave to make True Dweomers vastly more difficult. Either way, magic over level 9 remained available to wizards (not just Elven High Magi), just not as easy as Netheril had it.
I've got an FR map on my computer that I'm not sure about the edition. It's not done in the usual 2e or 3e style. Is there a way I can figure out which edition it's from? I know 3e took the axe to a lot of spaces, but is there something specific I can look for and see, "Oh, this map doesn't have X, it must therefore be 3e," or whatever?
-Well...Can we have a look? ;)
Cool. I like....now about claiming one of the smaller ones and nameing it "Insert name here" Enclave!
-Go ahead. Have fun.
Not really. One had been the goddess of magic while the other is the goddess of magic yet each incarnation does things differently in some ways. Which is why I want the old one to come back with one difference no 12th lvl spells!
-Yes really. Mystryl is Mystra is Mystra (Midnight).
Well tell her to rework the weave so they don't. I mean she is the goddess of magic! Get er done!
-Uh...I'll let her know.
Shar's propraganda.
Mystra re-worked the Weave to make True Dweomers the only means of casting over 9th level. Or if one looks at True Dweomers as level 10 magic instead of a separate form then she reworked the Weave to make True Dweomers vastly more difficult. Either way, magic over level 9 remained available to wizards (not just Elven High Magi), just not as easy as Netheril had it.
-Let's not try to confuse everyone else. The common story will work well enough.
I'm not sure how. It's an 8.7 mb pdf, which would sort of make it hard to post, even if I wasn't uncertain about rights (if I knew who owned it, I probably wouldn't have this problem), and I don't have a personal website to post it onto. What do you suggest?
If it ain't copyrighted, then you have nothing to worry about.
Check my PM. We'll get it up.
They killed Faerun...and for that, I hate them a little bit.
Yawn.
I read threads like these but I just don't get them.
I'm not sure how. It's an 8.7 mb pdf, which would sort of make it hard to post, even if I wasn't uncertain about rights (if I knew who owned it, I probably wouldn't have this problem), and I don't have a personal website to post it onto. What do you suggest?
-Take a screen shot, perhaps, and then upload it onto Photobucket, or a similar image storing website.
-I have a large PDF map of Faerûn as well, and it is a compilation of the 4 maps released by DRAGON Magazine, citca issues 275-300. Somewhere around then.
But thanks for letting me know.@ everyone else: Thanks for the advice, once I get home I'll see about getting it up.
The 3E map took out Heartsvale if that is any help.
As they should have. Place sucked!!
Erlkazar was effectively deleted as well... Fields of the Dead and the general area seemed much smaller as well, although I'll admit I've never bothered measuring it.
And it was twisted, geography wise. At least the area where it was supposed to be.
Erlkazar was effectively deleted as well... Fields of the Dead and the general area seemed much smaller as well, although I'll admit I've never bothered measuring it.
-It is "back" now, if I recall correctly.
-The reasons for many of the changes are not due to fact, but due to perception. This much, the designers have said. Apparently, many of those who do not like the Forgotten Realms are because of the misperception that this is what happens. It is likely that they feel this way due to poor formulative experiences with the setting, such as a bad DM doing this to them.
I don't like this explanation. Maybe it is because I'm one of those suffering from the 'misperception'. When I ask how the Realms should be played 'correctly', nobody seems to be able to give an answer.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, I believe even some members of the 4ED FR design team said that they feel the same, and that they therefore didn't like playing 3ED Realms. Which makes the whole 'misperception'-theory ridiculous.
As they should have. Place sucked!!
Does not! DOES NOT!
You take that back right now!
Right now darn you!
I HEART Heartsvale!:D
:P
:D
And always has... leaving it off was an error...
While not official, THAT MAP has both the Schend and Ed 'seal of approval', so enjoy.
I don't like this explanation.
-Like it or not, that's the long and the short of it.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, I believe even some members of the 4ED FR design team said that they feel the same, and that they therefore didn't like playing 3ED Realms. Which makes the whole 'misperception'-theory ridiculous.
-When they were asked, the design team stated that there were no Forgotten Realms game currently being played in the office. This did not include what they were doing at home, and, when later asked, Rich Baker confirmed that he does/did play in a game taking place in the Forgotten Realms at home.
Does not! DOES NOT!
You take that back right now!
Right now darn you!
I HEART Heartsvale!:D
:P
:D
Um, no.
Talk to Troy Denning. He's the one that did it to me. Hartsvale was just fine with me until I read those damn books.
No worries. Even though you have bad taste, I still like ya, X. ;)
I don't like this explanation. Maybe it is because I'm one of those suffering from the 'misperception'. When I ask how the Realms should be played 'correctly', nobody seems to be able to give an answer.
That could perhaps be because there is no 'correct' way to play in the Realms... do whatever the hells you want with it, official canon be damned. That is kinda what we're supposed to be doing in the first place, hence the whole initiative towards "using anything from any book in any setting you like" concept in 4e. While I applaud the idea of encouraging that, I don't really see how that wasn't the case with 3e or earlier edition stuff.
I don't like this explanation. Maybe it is because I'm one of those suffering from the 'misperception'. When I ask how the Realms should be played 'correctly', nobody seems to be able to give an answer.
They don't give an answer, or just not an answer that you like?
There is no one correct answer to that question, because what one thinks the Realms should be is so highly personal.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, I believe even some members of the 4ED FR design team said that they feel the same, and that they therefore didn't like playing 3ED Realms. Which makes the whole 'misperception'-theory ridiculous.
You are a bit mistaken. Rich Baker said he likes the Realms and uses the setting on his own time. And if you think the "misperception theory" is "ridiculous"...well, again, you'd be disagreeing with Rich Baker (and the design team as a whole), because we've been told that many of the changes were brought about based on what WotC thought consumer perceptions of the setting were.
Um, no.
Talk to Troy Denning. He's the one that did it to me. Hartsvale was just fine with me until I read those damn books.
No worries. Even though you have bad taste, I still like ya, X. ;)
I guess it is all right, even if I disagree with you. We can agree to disagree (by the way, there is nothing wrong with my tongue. I taste just fine).
I guess I still, kinda, sorta, maybe, possibly still like you too,:P
:D
One wonders how long its going to be before you two get horizontal with all the love in this thread... :P :D
EEeeee--YUCK!
You, my man, are icky icky!
That's it, bub!! No more Mr. Nice Dookie Judge Guy!!!
**Burrito Smack**
How ya like that? Huh!? Want some picante sauce upside your head, too?!?!
I'll take your knee caps out with my gordita if you keep it up!
What is this a passive aggressive wolverine at taco bell.......
btw....*punch*
They don't give an answer, or just not an answer that you like?
You are right. There are answers, just none that I'm comfortable with.
There was a long debate in another thread a while ago (on the 'superhero effect' in FR), and IIRC most of the suggested 'solutions' to why the high level NPCs don't help the PCs were that they are too busy or away.
What is this a passive aggressive wolverine at taco bell.......
btw....*punch*
No. It's the spicy and zesty wrath of Bejebuz!!
**Gordita Smack**
You are right. There are answers, just none that I'm comfortable with.
There was a long debate in another thread a while ago (on the 'superhero effect' in FR), and IIRC most of the suggested 'solutions' to why the high level NPCs don't help the PCs were that they are too busy or away.
Which was the suggested means of dealing with PC's bothering iconics back in the 2e days. Hells, why should they bother to help someone who won't help themselves first? Why are the PCs even running to them in the first place? If you're going to treat it as if those iconics should be solving all the worlds problems every moment of the day, why even bother picking up a sword or spellbook in the first place? We're supposed to be adventurers in the Realms, so get thee gone and be an Adventurer, instead of just waiting for an iconic to handle it...
You've got something better to do perhaps? :P
Eh. Good point. But still, this "problem" pops up all the time. I've argued the same stance you have. All the same, people will not relent on things. Its just inconceivable for them not to have the NPC's ruin their game.
So why bother addressing it?
Can we please not get back into this. As always, it will lead to nowhere.
-That kind of is the topic. Sort of. I mean, the title is very broad, so...
A masochistic tendency on my part. Beyond that, it makes me feel better about myself with smug self-superiority. And I particularly like that part...
Well, I wouldn't want to deprive you of that, now would I?
-That kind of is the topic. Sort of. I mean, the title is very broad, so...
Your eye for technicalities isn't helping here.
A masochistic tendency on my part. Beyond that, it makes me feel better about myself with smug self-superiority. And I particularly like that part...
For the record, I agree with your answer. However, like many others here, I've argued the topic to death before, and I'm not too eager to jump back in at the moment (especially since White Whale said none of the answers he/she got were to his/her satisfaction).
No, of course you wouldn't. I'd have to blow up every source of hot and spicy tastiness you even remotely enjoy in retalitation... and I would hate to have to do that.
You're just peeved that your Brussels sprouts spell won't work on me.
For the record, I agree with your answer. However, like many others here, I've argued the topic to death before, and I'm not too eager to jump back in at the moment (especially since White Whale said none of the answers he/she got were to his/her satisfaction).
See? :D
See what? Nothing to do with anything that concerns me... :P
Too bored today. Really should be doing some projects, but can't quite bring myself to delve into them today... bah.
Nope, it worked just fine, you're just delusional enough not to notice... :P
Dammit. I knew those Cheerios were tasting a bit strange.
See what? Nothing to do with anything that concerns me... :P
Yeah, yeah. You're above it all. We know, we know.
Too bored today. Really should be doing some projects, but can't quite bring myself to delve into them today... bah.
Just consider it part of a long Memorial Day weekend and say screw it.
No. It's the spicy and zesty wrath of Bejebuz!!
**Gordita Smack**
Thats an "illegal" tactic therefore doesn't work.
*punch*
Can we please not get back into this. As always, it will lead to nowhere.
Get back into the fact that iconic NPC's take away the spotlight from the PC's and therefore should be killed off for betterment of Realm players everywhere?
Or the fact that mexican food is the same dish renamed a dozen times.
I believe this latest blow to the Realms is three-fold: the first is I think the writer were lazy and failed to understand critical points of FR. Shoddy writing that went into the cataclysmic changes in the Realms, Dragonborne just portal in seriously, an amateur DM could do better. Then what the in the 9 hells is with the planes rearranging b/c Mystra dies, she has no control over the Abyss, what were they thinking?!?! It’s like someone read part of the Avatar Trilogy and didn’t understand what was going on.
Two: Wizard has pandered to the few players actually able to make it to their events and made critical changes accordingly. I have one of the 4th ed preview books and the authors said they took suggestions from people at Dragoncon and other events. I wish I could have had some input but most of the big events take place on the coasts or very very rarely in the Midwest but not near enough for me and my group to go.
Third and most pathetic, this is just about making money. They are advancing the Realms and changing this b/c they figure no money would be made if the 3.5 source books could still be used. The writers are ignoring Realms lore and shoving core down its throat, by making FR more core its players will have to purchase supplements they would not have otherwise needed. The Forgotten Realms is no longer the same world; it’s not even in the same universe.
Sorry I ranted.
Get back into the fact that iconic NPC's take away the spotlight from the PC's and therefore should be killed off for betterment of Realm players everywhere?
Or the fact that mexican food is the same dish renamed a dozen times.
Fact? On both counts, I say to you... you are wrong. Utterly and completely wrong. Obviously, you've never had good mexican food... which Taco Bell does not constitute. :P ;)
Not to knock 4th ed Reams before I try it, but I am disappointed with everything I have learned about it. I will go to a book store and read through it for a few hours before I make my final decision, but I am dismayed and not expecting to be impressed. The Realms have been raped, end of story, Wizards is changing some of the key concepts separating a classic from the regurgitated crap they’ve come up with in the past few years, sorry I’m not an Eberron fan, it takes several unique and rare elements of the FR and commonplace to the point they are no longer fun (just my opinion).
I believe this latest blow to the Realms is three-fold: the first is I think the writer were lazy and failed to understand critical points of FR. Shoddy writing that went into the cataclysmic changes in the Realms, Dragonborne just portal in seriously, an amateur DM could do better. Then what the in the 9 hells is with the planes rearranging b/c Mystra dies, she has no control over the Abyss, what were they thinking?!?! It’s like someone read part of the Avatar Trilogy and didn’t understand what was going on.
Two: Wizard has pandered to the few players actually able to make it to their events and made critical changes accordingly. I have one of the 4th ed preview books and the authors said they took suggestions from people at Dragoncon and other events. I wish I could have had some input but most of the big events take place on the coasts or very very rarely in the Midwest but not near enough for me and my group to go.
Third and most pathetic, this is just about making money. They are advancing the Realms and changing this b/c they figure no money would be made if the 3.5 source books could still be used. The writers are ignoring Realms lore and shoving core down its throat, by making FR more core its players will have to purchase supplements they would not have otherwise needed. The Forgotten Realms is no longer the same world; it’s not even in the same universe.
Sorry I ranted.
All this is true, fortunately, however, we have enough books from the second edition available for free from Wotc themselves and third edition books still in the stores, to last us with plot hooks forever.
Thats an "illegal" tactic therefore doesn't work.
*punch*
Stop whining, you baby. All’s fair in FR and war.
**Enchilada Slap**
Get back into the fact that iconic NPC's take away the spotlight from the PC's and therefore should be killed off for betterment of Realm players everywhere?
Why I allow myself to even respond to this is beyond me.
Why the hell aren’t you making the PC’s the ones in the spotlight? Nothing personal, but it doesn’t take a lot of tactical intellect to be able to remove—or blend in—any NPC within the game you control.
Or the fact that mexican food is the same dish renamed a dozen times.
That’s just stupid. Haven’t you ever had a breakfast burrito? Case closed.
Third and most pathetic, this is just about making money. They are advancing the Realms and changing this b/c they figure no money would be made if the 3.5 source books could still be used. The writers are ignoring Realms lore and shoving core down its throat, by making FR more core its players will have to purchase supplements they would not have otherwise needed. The Forgotten Realms is no longer the same world; it’s not even in the same universe.
I think this applies to 4th Edition D&D in general and not so specifically Forgotten Realms.
Wouldn't actually surprise me much if they removed them, to 'encourage' us to move to 4e...
Um, haven’t we all been seeing inconsistencies with the 3e to 4e transition? If they can’t avoid making Swiss cheese out of the product from the start, what makes you think they will go back to address past loopholes?
Think they are the CIA or something?
Third and most pathetic, this is just about making money.
Believe me, I feel for you and basically agree with the spirit of your post, but not this part that I quoted. Any for-profit company is going to be primarily concerned with the bottom-line--that is a given. I can't say I see anything wrong with that in and of itself.
Get back into the fact that iconic NPC's take away the spotlight from the PC's and therefore should be killed off for betterment of Realm players everywhere?
If you're going to claim that is a *fact*, you should show proof of it.
Two: Wizard has pandered to the few players actually able to make it to their events and made critical changes accordingly. I have one of the 4th ed preview books and the authors said they took suggestions from people at Dragoncon and other events. I wish I could have had some input but most of the big events take place on the coasts or very very rarely in the Midwest but not near enough for me and my group to go.
-This, I didn't know about. I mean, we all know there was (presumably) market research, but...Can anyone give me more detail about this point?
-This, I didn't know about. I mean, we all know there was (presumably) market research, but...Can anyone give me more detail about this point?
I didn't know about that either. I would hope WotC did more substantial research than a simple culling of opinions from people at a bunch of Cons--a sample of the gaming populace that is almost without doubt not representitive of the majority.
Stop whining, you baby. All’s fair in FR and war.
**Enchilada Slap**
Why I allow myself to even respond to this is beyond me.
Why the hell aren’t you making the PC’s the ones in the spotlight? Nothing personal, but it doesn’t take a lot of tactical intellect to be able to remove—or blend in—any NPC within the game you control.
That tactic works in the old realms not the new one.
I do make my PC's the spot light......but WOTC said it happens and therefore we ALL do it. Jeez didn't you know they have brain scanners to know what we all really want.
Believe me, I feel for you and basically agree with the spirit of your post, but not this part that I quoted. Any for-profit company is going to be primarily concerned with the bottom-line--that is a given. I can't say I see anything wrong with that in and of itself.
I am not there is saying anything wrong with trying to make a profit in the end, but at what price? Is it really worth alienating all their loyal cutomers? It seems to me there is a total lack of respect for the product and the people that have put out money for the product.
I am not saying anything wrong with trying to make a profit, but at what price? Is it really worth alienating all their loyal cutomer? It seems to me there is a total lack of respect for the product and the people that have put out money for the product.
-A company isn't going to follow a model they don't believe isn't going to net them the highest yield. They are going to follow the model that they believe (through market research, internal research, and so on) is going to net them the highest yield. Thus...;)
True words Lord Karsus, but I can't help but doubt the wisdom of shattering a product not broken then repackaging it as same old thing.
I suspect that the Realms has seen a serious drop off of sales in recent years. You don't completely revamp a product if it's selling like gangbusters. You do, however, if sales of that product are down by a large amount. Just look at tv. How many tv shows have reinvented themselves midcourse when their ratings were down and they were on the cusp of cancellation in an effort to stay on the air?
Everything they've done smacks of a need to do something drastic in order to keep the Forgotten Realms going. Whether that gamble pays off, who knows. But something tells me that the Realms as a published setting, had it continued on its previous course, was pretty much done for.
That tactic works in the old realms not the new one.
Never used it in the old, bub. Been waiting for the new Realms to unleash my spicy might.
I do make my PC's the spot light......but WOTC said it happens and therefore we ALL do it. Jeez didn't you know they have brain scanners to know what we all really want.
Actually, they mentioned that there was player concerns with too many powerful NPC's stealing the limelight.
And their brain scanners ended up strapped to donkeys at the county fair when a college prank went overboard. Thus, we get 4th Edition!
I suspect that the Realms has seen a serious drop off of sales in recent years. You don't completely revamp a product if it's selling like gangbusters. You do, however, if sales of that product are down by a large amount. Just look at tv. How many tv shows have reinvented themselves midcourse when their ratings were down and they were on the cusp of cancellation in an effort to stay on the air?
Everything they've done smacks of a need to do something drastic in order to keep the Forgotten Realms going. Whether that gamble pays off, who knows. But something tells me that the Realms as a published setting, had it continued on its previous course, was pretty much done for.
-Every resource availible to us (Amazon, for instance) told a different story, as the Forgotten Realms continually sold more sourcebooks than Eberron, which did not recieve any changes. It is likely, rather than a drop off of sales, that the Forgotten Realms setting was simply not sell as much as WotC wants.
Never used it in the old, bub. Been waiting for the new Realms to unleash my spicy might.
So in the words of Adam Sandler......."Look at me! I'm crazy Gordita Hand Man!!"
Actually, they mentioned that there was player concerns with too many powerful NPC's stealing the limelight.
And their brain scanners ended up strapped to donkeys at the county fair when a college prank went overboard. Thus, we get 4th Edition!
WOTC's reasons for re-vamping the Realms I could care less. I find it interesting, and my players are excited about playing in the realms again. After playing 4ed. preview......I'm excited about the new edition and what it can offer.
Granted the above is my groups opinion on the matter so I doubt it means much to anyone else.
So in the words of Adam Sandler......."Look at me! I'm crazy Gordita Hand Man!!"
Must have missed that one.
WOTC's reasons for re-vamping the Realms I could care less. I find it interesting, and my players are excited about playing in the realms again. After playing 4ed. preview......I'm excited about the new edition and what it can offer.
Interesting. Did the flow of play change all that drastically when you played in the preview?
Interesting. Did the flow of play change all that drastically when you played in the preview?
Mechanics flowed with role play better than I've ever seen. This was just a pick up game at my local store with a horrible DM. The new casting system kept arcane caster relevant through an entire encounter.
I played the dwarven fighter, me and the paladin working together held six enemies at bay while casters and strikers moved into better positions. The rogue was nice moving enemies into my strike range.
Action points work very nicely as implemented. Wizard implements don't resemble anything like harry potter. Hp has to be viewed in a much more abstract manner though.
I view it as every hit is a hit......and your hp is your drive to push past the pain and keep going.
and one last thing.....*punch*
The new casting system kept arcane caster relevant through an entire encounter.
Very sweet.
Wizard implements don't resemble anything like harry potter.
Sweeter.
and one last thing.....
**Tabasco Squirt**
And that's just spicy, you sucker punchin' goonie!
Mechanics flowed with role play better than I've ever seen. This was just a pick up game at my local store with a horrible DM. The new casting system kept arcane caster relevant through an entire encounter.
I played the dwarven fighter, me and the paladin working together held six enemies at bay while casters and strikers moved into better positions. The rogue was nice moving enemies into my strike range.
Action points work very nicely as implemented. Wizard implements don't resemble anything like harry potter. Hp has to be viewed in a much more abstract manner though.
I view it as every hit is a hit......and your hp is your drive to push past the pain and keep going.
and one last thing.....*punch*
Did you have a group cleric? If so, what did they think? Did they enjoy their class, and powers and all? Did you fit it into the Realms yet, or was it more just a regular tryout of the module?
Yes we did have a cleric, the options were wide open with him. You could be a band aid, stand back and use radiant rays, or go up into hand to hand. Well, you could do all of the above and not have to sacrifice anything with the new spell casting system.
I see it being able to fit into the Realms very easily, fitting it's abilities to whatever god it serves yet not losing any effectiveness.
I must say the paladin fits the type better now, being able to do it's job.
**Tabasco Squirt**
And that's just spicy, you sucker punchin' goonie!
I so want to make a mexican porn joke but my ethics prevent it.
Yes we did have a cleric, the options were wide open with him. You could be a band aid, stand back and use radiant rays, or go up into hand to hand. Well, you could do all of the above and not have to sacrifice anything with the new spell casting system.
I see it being able to fit into the Realms very easily, fitting it's abilities to whatever god it serves yet not losing any effectiveness.
I must say the paladin fits the type better now, being able to do it's job.
Interesting, thanks! What's changed about the pally to make him feel more on-type?
Also, with your wizard, did he still "feel" like a wizard? The one thing I worry about there is (from the 4E descriptions so far) that I think wizard spells are pretty fixed (like a 3.5E sorcerer)... is that true for 4E? Did he still have access to a spellbook that would allow him to change spells at each long resting point, or was it more sorcerer-like?
Interesting, thanks! What's changed about the pally to make him feel more on-type?
Also, with your wizard, did he still "feel" like a wizard? The one thing I worry about there is (from the 4E descriptions so far) that I think wizard spells are pretty fixed (like a 3.5E sorcerer)... is that true for 4E? Did he still have access to a spellbook that would allow him to change spells at each long resting point, or was it more sorcerer-like?
The paladins powers match up with the idea of the front line and protection of allies and innocents. His challenge ability works much better than I thought and well with the fighters challenge.
You can choose your daily spells, I'm not sure about encounter spells, at wills are chosen as you level I think.....didn't play it but I do have the books on pre-order.
The wand implement gives you a bonus to hit with spells once an encounter, but you casting is not nerfed without it.
The paladins powers match up with the idea of the front line and protection of allies and innocents. His challenge ability works much better than I thought and well with the fighters challenge.
You can choose your daily spells, I'm not sure about encounter spells, at wills are chosen as you level I think.....didn't play it but I do have the books on pre-order.
The wand implement gives you a bonus to hit with spells once an encounter, but you casting is not nerfed without it.
Hmm! Me like! I hate to say it, but I think I'm warming up to 4E.
Damn those sneaky, crafty designer peeps! Heh! I still think I'll wait on the 4E FRCS until I can put my fingers all over its pages and grope it. But the rule system doesn't sound bad..... starting to sound better, actually.
WOTC's reasons for re-vamping the Realms I could care less. I find it interesting, and my players are excited about playing in the realms again. After playing 4ed. preview......I'm excited about the new edition and what it can offer.
Granted the above is my groups opinion on the matter so I doubt it means much to anyone else.
I am sorry you feel that way about the FR Krevon, but what you are talking about is pure mechanics. I agree I am excited about the new system, but my concerns extend to the Forgotten Realms R.I.P.
Hmm! Me like! I hate to say it, but I think I'm warming up to 4E.
I still think I'll wait on the 4E FRCS until I can put my fingers all over its pages and grope it. But the rule system doesn't sound bad..... starting to sound better, actually.
Yeah, all it take for FRCS is a different attitude......I chose to see the opportunities it opens up for my players and me as a dm. Others have refuted this but three of us have been gaming for 10+ years and were excited about it for the first time in a long time. I hope that others around the world feel the same way too and sparks even more interest.
I am sorry you feel that way about the FR Krevon, but what you are talking about is pure mechanics. I agree I am excited about the new system, but my concerns extend to the Forgotten Realms R.I.P.
It's not just mechanics, I still love the old Realms. My players were over whelmed with the amount of stuff in it. I don't say this to start an argument, or debate........I'm just stating a fact in my group. It was to the point they didn't want to play FR anymore and looking to sci-fi. When they heard about the shake up they want to play in a setting I love to run. So it's worth it to me.
I thought the point of the Realms was to be huge. Its just my opinion: the players should feel the world is large and they don't need to know everything about the world and all its lore. My players really know very little about the region are adventuring and less about the world. They find it fun to explore and exciting when I reveal new thing. It would be far less fun DMing if my player knew everything about the world I do. It would be unrewarding if the players figure out my plot lines b/c they know some obscure fact I used for an adventure.
The Realms still are huge, I'm not getting into the rest of the post. It's been done to death.
I thought the point of the Realms was to be huge. Its just my opinion: the players should feel the world is large and they don't need to know everything about the world and all its lore. My players really know very little about the region are adventuring and less about the world. They find it fun to explore and exciting when I reveal new thing. It would be far less fun DMing if my player knew everything about the world I do. It would be unrewarding if the players figure out my plot lines b/c they know some obscure fact I used for an adventure.
As Krev said, it's been done to death. What you need to take into account is that many people who are PC's do know a lot about the Realms--sometimes more than the DM. That's where people have issues.
The one thing I find a-backward is the nothing is simplified. The History of the Realms is still supposed to be usable, so all thats done is adding a century of crap on top of all the other lore. The slate has not been wiped clean unless it is no longer the same world. The attempt to simplify is in vane DMs need a book to give at least an overview of a region, and as if the marketing mechine won't produce them.
Shush!! You'll spoil everything!
The one thing I find a-backward is the nothing is simplified. The History of the Realms is still supposed to be usable, so all thats done is adding a century of crap on top of all the other lore. The slate has not been wiped clean unless it is no longer the same world. The attempt to simplify is in vane DMs need a book to give at least an overview of a region, and as if the marketing mechine won't produce them.
My view on this is that the change puts the lore in the DM's hands more so than ever. So the dm can draw on whatever lore he or she wants with out it contradicting with anything else. Once again, I'm only expressing my view of it and how I will be approaching.
Wish I could quote the guy who does this but.....
Your mileage may vary
My view on this is that the change puts the lore in the DM's hands more so than ever. So the dm can draw on whatever lore he or she wants with out it contradicting with anything else. Once again, I'm only expressing my view of it and how I will be approaching.
Wish I could quote the guy who does this but.....
Your mileage may vary
Since when has the world and lore been out of the DMs hands. It doesn't sound like good DMing if they were to let the published material completely rule their game. There is no rule saying that a DM must use or recognize a part of the world they chose not to. Part of the fun of the Realms is feeling you have a breathing world, from there it is up to the DM what they choose to include. At least that’s what I thought.
Since when has the world and lore been out of the DMs hands. It doesn't sound like good DMing if they were to let the published material completely rule their game. There is no rule saying that a DM must use or recognize a part of the world they chose not to. Part of the fun of the Realms is feeling you have a breathing world, from there it is up to the DM what they choose to include. At least that’s what I thought.
(sigh)
I'm with ya, but it doesn't change the facts.
(sigh)
I'm with ya, but it doesn't change the facts.
True, but it is nice to vent. My only hope is someone in charge is monitoring these threads and understands not everyone is behind these changes... they'd be blind otherwise. Like I said before I will look at the new Realms, but I don't guarantee anything.
-Every resource availible to us (Amazon, for instance) told a different story, as the Forgotten Realms continually sold more sourcebooks than Eberron, which did not recieve any changes. It is likely, rather than a drop off of sales, that the Forgotten Realms setting was simply not sell as much as WotC wants.
Well, according to Amazon, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is ranked at #29,733. Conversely, the Eberron Campaign Setting is ranked at #17,525. So Eberron outsold the Realms in that particular case, even though the Realms had three years on Eberron. The Player's Guide to Faerun was ranked at #167,650 while the Player's Guide to Eberron is ranked at #39,957, despite having two years on it. Faiths & Pantheons is ranked at #362,885, while Faiths of Eberron is ranked at #213,154, and it had four years of extra sales in addition.
There're likely a couple Realms books which did better. Dragons of Faerun, for instance, is at #139,393, while Dragons of Eberron is at #144,395. It's nearly caught up, however, despite having been released over a year later, and only being out for seven months. Of course, to be fair, as Rich pointed out here, "The difference between being #50,000 on the list and being #90,000 on the list might only be a couple of dozen copies. You're pretty far down the list of titles at that point". Although I wonder what the difference is in number of copies between 40,000 and 167,000? When it comes to the main books though, on Amazon at least, Eberron does outsell the Realms. Which is especially telling, as the FR counterparts oftentimes have a few years headstart on the Eberron equivalents.
And as Rich also said in that link. "I do have sales information to back up my assertion that Realms is not as self-proselytizing as you suggest, but I'm not at liberty to disclose those numbers. Whether my elevator theory is accurate or not, I couldn't say; that's why I described it as a theory." Whatever the case, I think we can both agree that their decision is certainly based on sales, and that WotC doesn't think they're as good as they should be. But IMO, this is the kind of move you make when you want to keep something previously successful alive. Just an opinion, of course.
Just to back FR a bit, a couple of things:
1) It takes a while for stuff like this to hit mainstream with gamers. Bookstores sell what sells. FR is a known commodity, Eberron is just now getting its brass. Therefore, bookstores sell a lot of FR, and not a lot of Eberron. Those who look for Eberron are forced, quite often, to go to Amazon to find what they are looking for and, as a result, buy from there.
2) Many FR gamers are a bit older--starting off with the Realms as far back as the 80's. These people didn't have Amazon back in the day and went to book stores to get their FR material. And, as old habits die hard, still do.
Eberron gamers, while not all young, are generally part of the younger generation--as I have seen, thus far--and, as such, are used to buying things online, as it's nowadays the norm.
The two may contribute to your stats. I don't dispute either way, just want to put out the possibilities.
Whatever the case, I think the 4E treatments of both settings is a big hint as to what the sales figures are for each. Eberron is seeing very little change. I suspect that it's because it's successful. And when you have a success you don't rock the boat. With the Realms, however, we're seeing the kinds of changes that're comparable to tv shows which're told "Make some big changes and bring in new viewers or you're cancelled". Combined with Rich saying that "I do have sales information to back up my assertion that Realms is not as self-proselytizing as you suggest", methinks the case for Realms sales may be even worse then what Amazon suggests. Which is a shame because, despite being more successful, I vastly prefer the Realms to Eberron. I'm actually playing in an Eberron campaign right now (can't find a Realms game!), and I'm making things up as I go along because I don't know jack spit about Eberron. I've got the campaign setting but I've barely read two pages of it, as it just doesn't interest me. I'd rather play the Realms, but nobody actually seems to play it around here anymore.
Since when has the world and lore been out of the DMs hands. It doesn't sound like good DMing if they were to let the published material completely rule their game. There is no rule saying that a DM must use or recognize a part of the world they chose not to. Part of the fun of the Realms is feeling you have a breathing world, from there it is up to the DM what they choose to include. At least that’s what I thought.
Actually thats not my point at all. It's when the players having read the same thing the DM reads and when the DM wants to do something different from other than whats cannon they make a stink about it during the game.
Thats one situation where FR fluff hinders a game. If you've never had it happen to you then wonderful, but for those who have.......this might end up being a possible solution.
Good points. Still, how many gamers go to bookstores as opposed to game stores to get their books? My local book stores, for instance, don't carry a whole lot of D&D books, period. Often times it'll just be one copy of a book and that's it. However, when I do step into a game store, I see plenty of Eberron.
More often than you think.
You're in Miami, my man. It's a big city, with access to virtually any type of store you want. You want something special, you can simply look it up on Yahoo! and be where its being sold within 30 minutes.
Rural gamers, those in smaller cities a good distance away from places like Miami or Chicago, don't have game stores within easy reach. They need to go to Walden Books or Barnes & Noble to get their fix.
And trust me, there is probably a hell of a lot more gamers in those smaller cities per population, then there is in the bigger cities--there simply isn't crap to do otherwise.
Whatever the case, I think the 4E treatments of both settings is a big hint as to what the sales figures are for each. Eberron is seeing very little change. I suspect that it's because it's successful. And when you have a success you don't rock the boat. With the Realms, however, we're seeing the kinds of changes that're comparable to tv shows which're told "Make some big changes and bring in new viewers or you're cancelled". Combined with Rich saying that "I do have sales information to back up my assertion that Realms is not as self-proselytizing as you suggest", methinks the case for Realms sales may be even worse then what Amazon suggests.
Hey. I subject myself to you on the sales info. I've heard rumors, can see where and what you're coming from completely. Just see no point getting in depth on it.
Which is a shame because, despite being more successful, I vastly prefer the Realms to Eberron. I'm actually playing in an Eberron campaign right now (can't find a Realms game!), and I'm making things up as I go along because I don't know jack spit about Eberron. I've got the campaign setting but I've barely read two pages of it, as it just doesn't interest me. I'd rather play the Realms, but nobody actually seems to play it around here anymore.
Now, this is where I scold you. Where the hell do you get of trying to DM something you don't love? Didn't we just have a thread that speaks of bad DM's? Man, if you don't like Eberron, why the hell are you subjecting yourself to it? If you can't love the world you're breathing to your PC's, then they aren't going to love it either--unless they are a bunch of hack and slash idiots who really just want to "play" and not "roleplay."
Get a grip!! You're being used!!
True, but it is nice to vent. My only hope is someone in charge is monitoring these threads and understands not everyone is behind these changes... they'd be blind otherwise. Like I said before I will look at the new Realms, but I don't guarantee anything.
Many of us have gone head to head with the developers on this. Things were cast in stone a long time ago, though. Those that weren't...well, they may have been tweaked to the slightest degree.
Good or bad, my man. Welcome. It is what it is.
Now, this is where I scold you. Where the hell do you get of trying to DM something you don't love? Didn't we just have a thread that speaks of bad DM's? Man, if you don't like Eberron, why the hell are you subjecting yourself to it? If you can't love the world you're breathing to your PC's, then they aren't going to love it either--unless they are a bunch of hack and slash idiots who really just want to "play" and not "roleplay."
Get a grip!! You're being used!!
Err... huh?
I'm playing in it, not DMing it. Ah, I see where you might've gotten that impression, where I said I'm making things up as I go along. Yeah, that's in reference to me being a worshipper of the Silver Flame. I don't actually know anything about the Church of the Silver Flame, beyond a few snippets here and there, so whenever the subject comes up, I BS my way through that aspect of the character.
Incidentally, that's why I'm looking forward to LFR, despite the changes. The RPGA is pretty good, here, and Living Greyhawk games were going on constantly. So with LFR I may actually get to play a Realms game, again.
I used to think that driving all the FR players to Eberron was part of their evil "master plan", and have said as much numerous times. TSR nuked GH, and drove everyone to FR, so it made some sense to me (and it worked back then).
As of the last couple weeks, I no longer think that anyone at WotC had and sort of serendipitous master plan - that there is some 'covert operation' in place to get our money.
Shame... at least at that point, I thought them incredibly clever.
Now... I just think they have made a series of VERY bad mistakes (starting with PR). I don't hate them anymore (or even 4e FR) - now I feel nothing but pity.
This is going to SO come back and bite them in the a.. backside.
BTW, Eberron isn't bad... in fact, its quite good. We just don't like it because it's NOT FR. Admittedly, as much as I like a lot of aspects of it, its not my cup of tea (the flavor), but the setting itself isn't bad at all. If you could just use the maps and background, and dump a lot of the 'Cinema-esque' gameplay, you could have a lot of fun with it.
And they got a Choo-choo... I love Choo-choos...
Ah, I see where you might've gotten that impression, where I said I'm making things up as I go along. Yeah, that's in reference to me being a worshipper of the Silver Flame. I don't actually know anything about the Church of the Silver Flame, beyond a few snippets here and there, so whenever the subject comes up, I BS my way through that aspect of the character.
Yeah, that's where I got it.
DM that reads two pages and them makes
up as he goes along? Just didn't sit right.LOL
As of the last couple weeks, I no longer think that anyone at WotC had and sort of serendipitous master plan - that there is some 'covert operation' in place to get our money.
But I surely imagine that sales were key to the decision.
And they got a Choo-choo... I love Choo-choos...
I don't even want to know.
Yeah, that's where I got it.
DM that reads two pages and them makes
Nah, if I were to run a game, it'd be Forgotten Realms. Or hell, Ravenloft. I love Ravenloft, although I've never run it. I'd never run a campaign setting I know nothing about, though. Playing in one, however, is a whole other matter (Although that's not something I like to do, ideally. Also why I prefer to play in published settings, rather then homebrews. So I can actually get the book and know what the hell's going on with the setting).
Nah, if I were to run a game, it'd be Forgotten Realms. Or hell, Ravenloft. I love Ravenloft, although I've never run it. I'd never run a campaign setting I know nothing about, though. Playing in one, however, is a whole other matter (Although that's not something I like to do, ideally. Also why I prefer to play in published settings, rather then homebrews. So I can actually get the book and know what the hell's going on with the setting).
Agree totally--except with the Ravenloft bit. I like playing there, but I always hated being stuck there. I would prefer more of a campaign where you had to portal back and forth between the two worlds to get things accomplished.
But I surely imagine that sales were key to the decision.
Of course making money was first and foremost in their minds, but I used to see more 'nefarious' reasons behind everything. Now I realize I was giving them a lot more credit then I should have.
I don't even want to know.
My early love for Model-Railroading lead me to minatures - the same local store sold 'toy soldiers' as sold the buildings and accessories for my trainsets.
The store also carried a funny little game called D&D...
Trains brought me to D&D, and I still have much love for them. :D
Agree totally--except with the Ravenloft bit. I like playing there, but I always hated being stuck there. I would prefer more of a campaign where you had to portal back and forth between the two worlds to get things accomplished.
I prefer playing characters who're native to Ravenloft, myself. None of that "Weekend in Hell" stuff. As for being able to freely move back and forth, no thank you. That'd destroy part of what makes the setting so great.
Of course making money was first and foremost in their minds, but I used to see more 'nefarious' reasons behind everything. Now I realize I was giving them a lot more credit then I should have.
Well, as long as you are assured that a man can walk on the moon, then all is well. ;)
My early love for Model-Railroading lead me to minatures - the same local store sold 'toy soldiers' as sold the buildings and accessories for my trainsets.
The store also carried a funny little game called D&D...
Trains brought me to D&D, and I still have much love for them. :D
KO, first off, I won't ask how one and one led to the other. I will ask how people get into model trains. That I just simply don't get.
"Look, it goes around the track. Look, its going around again. Wait, see what its doing now...?"
IMHO, NASCAR is more exciting--and that's quite a stretch for me.
And, nothing personal, I really, simply, just don't get it.
Good points. Still, how many gamers go to bookstores as opposed to game stores to get their books? My local book stores, for instance, don't carry a whole lot of D&D books, period. Often times it'll just be one copy of a book and that's it. However, when I do step into a game store, I see plenty of Eberron.
I always buy my stuff from a store and never online, and all of my group does also. We are in the 30 to 40 year old range. We are pretty exclusive to FR for playing DnD, so that definately could skew the Amazon numbers.
With the Realms, however, we're seeing the kinds of changes that're comparable to tv shows which're told "Make some big changes and bring in new viewers or you're cancelled".
That is called "Jumping the shark", which is what they are doing to FR IMO.
That is called "Jumping the shark", which is what they are doing to FR IMO.
If its that bad, I just won't buy 4e realms, and use 3.5 realmslore for 4e.
I prefer playing characters who're native to Ravenloft, myself. None of that "Weekend in Hell" stuff. As for being able to freely move back and forth, no thank you. That'd destroy part of what makes the setting so great.
Looks like we were posting at the same time and I missed this.
I don't know. When you get stuck--let, alone, live in Ravenloft, I feel the things that make it unique get too commonplace.
I was stuck there for six months in a campaign at one time. Each day it was, "Let's prepare for today," rather than " What are we gonna deal with today?"
Perhaps it was just my DM, but dealing with undead and lycanthropes day in and day out loses its flavor.
I always buy my stuff from a store and never online, and all of my group does also. We are in the 30 to 40 year old range. We are pretty exclusive to FR for playing DnD, so that definately could skew the Amazon numbers.
HaHa!!
This is where I get to do the "See, I told you so" bit. :D
Nanan haha!!
And, nothing personal, I really, simply, just don't get it.
Its really not all that different from D&D when your the DM - its all about accurately simulating a world.
Have you ever seen one of those massive layouts with mountains and all that?
I don't do model railroading anymore, but I have over 7000 minis + accessories (buildings, treasure piles, furniture and wizard's labs, etc).
I went from creating one miniature fantasy world to another, thats all.
The train was just the excuse for everything else. ;)
And its okay if you don't 'get it' - I don't understand all the love for 'Giant Robots', so to each his own.
HaHa!!
This is where I get to do the "See, I told you so" bit. :D
Nanan haha!!
:P One guy and his gaming group are hardly representative. It doesn't even mean that Realms books sell more at the store he buys from then Eberron books. It just means that this particular group of guys buys Realms books at stores. We can go back and forth on this all day, and it'll just be repetitive, but I'll say it one more time. Judging by the massive changes being made to the Realms, odds are that sales were down to an uncomfortably low point. I don't think it's a coincidence that they're actively eliminating perceived problems with the setting. If you disagree, sure. It just doesn't make sense to me to make such drastic changes to a setting if it was already successful. That's my reasoning, anyway. *shrug*
I don't know. When you get stuck--let, alone, live in Ravenloft, I feel the things that make it unique get too commonplace.
I was stuck there for six months in a campaign at one time. Each day it was, "Let's prepare for today," rather than " What are we gonna deal with today?"
Perhaps it was just my DM, but dealing with undead and lycanthropes day in and day out loses its flavor.
I'd say it was the DM, as there's more to Ravenloft then just Undead and Lycanthropes. The problem there was probably also the billing. You went in expecting to play one setting, and ended up playing another. I imagine I'd be pretty ******, too, if I went in thinking I'd be playing a Realms campaign, only for our characters to fall into a portal and end up on Krynn. Then spend the next six months real world time trying to get back to Faerun.
I much prefer campaigns where it's "Ok, create Forgotten Realms characters for a Ravenloft campaign", or "Ok, create outlander or native characters for a Ravenloft campaign". Springing something like that on the players generally isn't a good idea, unless it's just a "Weekend in Hell" (as opposed to six months in hell).
(...) I imagine I'd be pretty ******, too, if I went in thinking I'd be playing a Realms campaign, only for our characters to fall into a portal and end up on Krynn. Then spend the next six months real world time trying to get back to Faerun.
Heh, this reminds me of a time when I was DMing a Realms campaign and had my players get sucked into Rolemaster's "ShadowWorld" of Kulthea. I had them roll up "alternate" Rolemaster versions of their characters and we played with those rules while they were there. :D
They had asked me for "a totally new campaign" they'd never done before, heh! When they finally found what they thought was the correct portal back, I had the portal explode with the result of fracturing one of the NPCs into multiple timelines in different worlds. To fix him, they had to travel to everywhere an alternate version of that NPC "landed" and bring them back to "re-integrate" him. :D
Sorry this is offtopic, but where do you guys get the new info for the Realms?
What would you like to know?
What would you like to know?
Exactly what I asked. Just want to browse it.
Exactly what I asked. Just want to browse it.
Well, I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for, as 4th edition Realms hasn't been released yet. But if you look here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drtoc/362
- and then view the "Countdown to the Realms" articles in particular, that may be what you're looking for? Hope that helps.
Its really not all that different from D&D when your the DM - its all about accurately simulating a world.
I’d see where it’s a lot different. But, hey, as you said—“To each his own.” ;)
Have you ever seen one of those massive layouts with mountains and all that?
Yes, actually. Last Thanksgiving, taking the train back from my dad’s house, some guy asked us to come check out the “Train Club” at the station. We went in and took a look.
I couldn’t believe how obsessed these people were with the little “world” they had created.
Granted, I do think it is a bit neat. But that is where it ends. If nothing dynamic can come from it, I simply don’t see it as a “creation” or “simulation.” It simply is.
And its okay if you don't 'get it' - I don't understand all the love for 'Giant Robots', so to each his own.
Indeed. I do get a bit more into Transformers than trains.
Thanks for the input.
:P One guy and his gaming group are hardly representative…
Just pokin’ at ya, my man. I give two
about the whole thing. ;) I'd say it was the DM, as there's more to Ravenloft then just Undead and Lycanthropes. The problem there was probably also the billing. You went in expecting to play one setting, and ended up playing another. I imagine I'd be pretty ******, too, if I went in thinking I'd be playing a Realms campaign, only for our characters to fall into a portal and end up on Krynn. Then spend the next six months real world time trying to get back to Faerun.
I much prefer campaigns where it's "Ok, create Forgotten Realms characters for a Ravenloft campaign", or "Ok, create outlander or native characters for a Ravenloft campaign". Springing something like that on the players generally isn't a good idea, unless it's just a "Weekend in Hell" (as opposed to six months in hell).
Valid. I’ve never got into Ravenloft, simply because of the experience I had while I was playing in it. Which, in all practicality, was a “Weekend in Hell.”
When they finally found what they thought was the correct portal back, I had the portal explode with the result of fracturing one of the NPCs into multiple timelines in different worlds. To fix him, they had to travel to everywhere an alternate version of that NPC "landed" and bring them back to "re-integrate" him. :D
Your lack of evil disappoints me. A PC should have fractured. Then you’d be groovin’.
"Who am I?"
"Where am I really from."
"Where's Fluffy?"
Yeah, baby!!
And as Rich also said in that link. "I do have sales information to back up my assertion that Realms is not as self-proselytizing as you suggest, but I'm not at liberty to disclose those numbers. Whether my elevator theory is accurate or not, I couldn't say; that's why I described it as a theory." Whatever the case, I think we can both agree that their decision is certainly based on sales, and that WotC doesn't think they're as good as they should be. But IMO, this is the kind of move you make when you want to keep something previously successful alive. Just an opinion, of course.
-Bolded for effect, as this is exactly what I said in my statement. A product can be selling a massive amount, but can still not meet the expectations of the maker. This doesn't necessarly the product is being moved slowly, however.
Hmm! Me like! I hate to say it, but I think I'm warming up to 4E.
I like what I'm hearing about the 4E rules, just not the 4E Realms setting.
Good points. Still, how many gamers go to bookstores as opposed to game stores to get their books?
Me.:P
Actually thats not my point at all. It's when the players having read the same thing the DM reads and when the DM wants to do something different from other than whats cannon they make a stink about it during the game.
Thats one situation where FR fluff hinders a game.
Not trying to start (or be involved with) a huge debate here, but what you describe sounds like more a case of players with bad manners hindering a game, not the Realmslore (lore isn't "fluff"--"fluff" is a stupid term IMO).
Not trying to start (or be involved with) a huge debate here, but what you describe sounds like more a case of players with bad manners hindering a game, not the Realmslore (lore isn't "fluff"--"fluff" is a stupid term IMO).
Regardless, it's something that was stated as a problem and it's one that I've encountered. This isn't one of mine, but I've seen game groups disband because the dm wanted to pick a piece of realmslore and run a campaign off it. One or more of the players got upset it didn't follow cannon strictly and left the group.
Who or whats at fault really doesn't matter, the thing is when people stop play in the Realms over things like this, kudos to the devs for having the brass to go after the market.
Regardless, it's something that was stated as a problem and it's one that I've encountered. This isn't one of mine, but I've seen game groups disband because the dm wanted to pick a piece of realmslore and run a campaign off it. One or more of the players got upset it didn't follow cannon strictly and left the group.
You said you gave an example where "fluff hinders the game". I stated that wasn't the real problem, and explained why. I stand by everything I said.
Anyway, was I not polite towards you? You seem to be taking a defensive tone here.
Who or whats at fault really doesn't matter...
I have to strongly disagree with that.
Not trying to start (or be involved with) a huge debate here, but what you describe sounds like more a case of players with bad manners hindering a game, not the Realmslore (lore isn't "fluff"--"fluff" is a stupid term IMO).
I don't particularly like the term "fluff" either, but at this point I think we're stuck with it.
It's one of those terms that's made it's way into usual RPG conversations - especially the "fluff" vs. "crunch" debate. Where crunch refers to the rules, the statblocks, and the numbers side of gaming, fluff is lore, environment, description, everything that puts the "role" in roleplaying.Anyway, often it's the case that players rich in their understanding of lore don't -intend- to be rude by starting debates about canon during a game, they just love the canon world so much (or at least, a part of canon they expected to find) that they couldn't resist the urge to ask about it. It is the job of the DM to put the kaibosh on a debate, in order to preserve the flow of the game, but some DMs also might feel challenged and need to defend their decisions. It happens, we're human. But both sides shouldn't let it escalate and spoil the day's game.
Regardless, it's something that was stated as a problem and it's one that I've encountered. This isn't one of mine, but I've seen game groups disband because the dm wanted to pick a piece of realmslore and run a campaign off it. One or more of the players got upset it didn't follow cannon strictly and left the group.
Who or whats at fault really doesn't matter, the thing is when people stop play in the Realms over things like this, kudos to the devs for having the brass to go after the market.
Sorry Krevon, but if the problem you described with certain FR players exists, its because of poor players and a GM who lets them get away with it rather than any inherent problem with the setting or the amount of its "fluff".
RPG's have always had "Rule 0" and FR not just enabled but encouraged GM's to make the setting their own. You're blaming the words written in a paperback or an optional supplement for how the players interpret and act on those words.
That is such a fallacious argument for supporting the 4E changes to FR that I'm always stunned when intelligent people try to use it.
I don't particularly like the term "fluff" either, but at this point I think we're stuck with it.
I know.
Anyway, often it's the case that players rich in their understanding of lore don't -intend- to be rude by starting debates about canon during a game, they just love the canon world so much (or at least, a part of canon they expected to find) that they couldn't resist the urge to ask about it. It is the job of the DM to put the kaibosh on a debate, in order to preserve the flow of the game, but some DMs also might feel challenged and need to defend their decisions. It happens, we're human. But both sides shouldn't let it escalate and spoil the day's game.
I totally agree. I will say that personally, I believe that when you agree to play in someone's game, you also agree that it's the DM's version of the setting, and it's impolite to pipe up and say, "Oh, but such-and-such novel tied up that plot already!" That's just my take on player manners, though. And I think you're right when you say that a lot of these players who are described here as "canon-junkies" probably don't intend to be rude or start trouble.
RPG's have always had "Rule 0" and FR not just enabled but encouraged GM's to make the setting their own.
Yes, that's correct--the FRCS has text that states exactly that in plain English.
Yes, that's correct--the FRCS has text that states exactly that in plain English.
There you go again ... Bringing in facts and common sense to ruin everyone's favorite gripe about FR.
SHAME ON YOU !!!
I totally agree. I will say that personally, I believe that when you agree to play in someone's game, you also agree that it's the DM's version of the setting, and it's impolite to pipe up and say, "Oh, but such-and-such novel tied up that plot already!" That's just my take on player manners, though. And I think you're right when you say that a lot of these players who are described here as "canon-junkies" probably don't intend to be rude or start trouble.
Yep, canon can get in one's veins. It's part of the lure of the Realms. A full group of mature players is always best, but there's a wide distribution of maturity in gamers. Sometimes influenced by age and experience, but also by alcohol and candy (we had a lore enthusiast in a game once who ate -way- too much candy, had a few too many schnapps, and forgot to bring his medication, lol... not a great combination, lol). :D
Sorry Krevon, but if the problem you described with certain FR players exists, its because of poor players and a GM who lets them get away with it rather than any inherent problem with the setting or the amount of its "fluff".
RPG's have always had "Rule 0" and FR not just enabled but encouraged GM's to make the setting their own. You're blaming the words written in a paperback or an optional supplement for how the players interpret and act on those words.
That is such a fallacious argument for supporting the 4E changes to FR that I'm always stunned when intelligent people try to use it.
I hope you're not implying that I'm not intelligent or a poor DM here. I support it because it got three of my close and long time friends interested in the setting again. It has turned my local hobby shop, which got frustrated with trying to run the Realms and swapped to World of Darkness, to turn back to the setting I love.
None of your statements here or anyones over several years has been able to change their minds til now. So to me, your point is moot since the version you are preferring drove players away and the one you don't is bringing them back.
I understand if things are different where you are but please don't trivialize what happens here.
None of your statements here or anyones over several years has been able to change their minds til now. So to me, your point is moot since the version you are preferring drove players away and the one you don't is bringing them back.
I understand if things are different where you are but please don't trivialize what happens here.
-No offense, but these two statements negate themselves. "Your point is moot" is negated by "I understand if things are different where you are".
-That said, as I have stated many times before, words in and of themselves are not to blame. They are just dabs of ink. Just like guns. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
-No offense, but these two statements negate themselves. "Your point is moot" is negated by "I understand if things are different where you are".
-That said, as I have stated many times before, words in and of themselves are not to blame. They are just dabs of ink. Just like guns. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
but its a lot easier to kill people with a gun
-No offense, but these two statements negate themselves. "Your point is moot" is negated by "I understand if things are different where you are".
-That said, as I have stated many times before, words in and of themselves are not to blame. They are just dabs of ink. Just like guns. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
They don't negate themselves....his view doesn't really mean a whole lot to me for the reasons stated. Yet I understand that his group/situation is different.
What I understood his post to be was that my opinion and experience is wrong due to his logic.
but its a lot easier to kill people with a gun
A gun without bullets is just a blunt weapon.:D
but its a lot easier to kill people with a gun
Pour enough ink into their mouth, and a person will die also.
They don't negate themselves....his view doesn't really mean a whole lot to me for the reasons stated. Yet I understand that his group/situation is different.
-I thought you meant in general, and not specifically concerning you. Gotcha.
What I understood his post to be was that my opinion and experience is wrong due to his logic.
-What he was saying was a long-winded version of what I just said, which is the truth: The physical words and the inclusion of them are not to blame for anything. It's what people do with those words that then makes situations sticky.
-What he was saying was a long-winded version of what I just said, which is the truth: The physical words and the inclusion of them are not to blame for anything. It's what people do with those words that then makes situations sticky.
The only way WTOC could address this problem was with their product. I for one don't view it as mutilation but giving me more room to do what I want with it without cheesing off any players I dm for. For me personally this is a good thing, since the next time I run the Realms I'll be keeping my own timeline and filling in with everything my group does.
I just read the "Ancient History" part in the GHotFR....that ain't even close to what I've read before. No wonder people are so screwed up after reading this. Wow (not the game), I'm actually speechless Earth 616, isn't that the comic book universe number for the "real" Earth? Leave the X-men outta this, though Nightcrawler is probably a Teifling now :/
And yes, I always thought novels shouldn't be canon (unless it's LotR) but is it the settings fault to the point where it needs to be thrown out and a new setting made and relablled that the players know "more" than the DM...or the DMs fault for not putting a stop to that crap and "controlling" his players better?
And Karsus, are you playing 4ed? Because NOTHING dwarves 1st lvl critters now, not even AO...or so I hear
And, now that I'm thoroughly confused, I'll slide this in here since I can't remember exactly where I read it but...I wouldn't count on Zass being around in the new game.
Leave the X-men outta this.
I think I will stay in, Thank-you Very Much. :P
On your point of Zass Tam, I believe in a few comments left by the designers that he is still around. So more good Red Wizard Evilness through Tam exists.
Also, I still can't believe people are going back and forth blaming FR material for their problems. I will say it again (like a broken record, I know LK). The material is NOT the problem. The people are. Otherwise you have that very same problem no matter what book you use, no matter what campaign setting you use, no matter if it is 1 product published or 12. It is still the PEOPLE, not the information. The information is just an excuse so people don't have to look around them and blame what is really responsible, themselves and those they play with that WANT to ruin games for others because it makes them feel better about themselves to act like children.
I hope you're not implying that I'm not intelligent or a poor DM here. I support it because it got three of my close and long time friends interested in the setting again. It has turned my local hobby shop, which got frustrated with trying to run the Realms and swapped to World of Darkness, to turn back to the setting I love.
None of your statements here or anyones over several years has been able to change their minds til now. So to me, your point is moot since the version you are preferring drove players away and the one you don't is bringing them back.
I understand if things are different where you are but please don't trivialize what happens here.
Krevon, I was in no way trying to imply that you were not intelligent. All I was trying to say is that the argument that the information written about a setting (FR fluff in this case) is in someway responsible for the poor conduct of certain players is ludicrous. If players left FR in the past it might indeed be due to other gamers who made the setting less enjoyable. But to say that they left because the 3E fluff made them enjoy the game less, just doesn't make any sense.
I can easily understand if you don't like 3E FR but like 4E FR. Personal choice is king after all. And if you've gotten the players down at your FLGS to play FR, then congratulations! But the fluff isn't the reason why they are coming back to FR. They are coming back because they are willing to play under a new premise for their game. This is the same option they had in the past, if they were willing to take it. Its the players choice and decision.
Krevon, I was in no way trying to imply that you were not intelligent. All I was trying to say is that the argument that the information written about a setting (FR fluff in this case) is in someway responsible for the poor conduct of certain players is ludicrous. If players left FR in the past it might indeed be due to other gamers who made the setting less enjoyable. But to say that they left because the 3E fluff made them enjoy the game less, just doesn't make any sense.
I can easily understand if you don't like 3E FR but like 4E FR. Personal choice is king after all. And if you've gotten the players down at your FLGS to play FR, then congratulations! But the fluff isn't the reason why they are coming back to FR. They are coming back because they are willing to play under a new premise for their game. This is the same option they had in the past, if they were willing to take it. Its the players choice and decision.
I like both actually versions thus far, thats kinda why I was saying whatever we debate here really doesn't matter if the new format brings in old and new players.
I like both actually versions thus far, thats kinda why I was saying whatever we debate here really doesn't matter if the new format brings in old and new players.
It does matter if it drives away players, as its doing for me and some of my gaming buddies.
Now whether that matters to the folks at WotC is a different question.
It is still the PEOPLE, not the information. The information is just an excuse so people don't have to look around them and blame what is really responsible, themselves and those they play with that WANT to ruin games for others because it makes them feel better about themselves to act like children.
There you go. Blaming everyone, but yourself again.
Pour enough ink into their mouth, and a person will die also.
true enough, but its easier with something specifically designed to kill
Earth 616, isn't that the comic book universe number for the "real" Earth? Leave the X-men outta this, though Nightcrawler is probably a Teifling now :/
Earth 616 is the universe for the standard Marvel Universe, with Spider-Man, the X-Men, the Hulk, etc. Earth Prime is the "real" Earth (and it existed in the DC Universe, not Marvel. If there's a number for the "real world" in the Marvel Universe, then I don't know it).
Because NOTHING dwarves 1st lvl critters now, not even AO...or so I hear
Don't have a clue as to where to even begin to guess what the point you're trying to make here, is. And, now that I'm thoroughly confused, I'll slide this in here since I can't remember exactly where I read it but...I wouldn't count on Zass being around in the new game.
It's already been said that Szass Tam is still around and running things in Thay.
OOo ouch...my head hurts
It does matter if it drives away players, as its doing for me and some of my gaming buddies.
Now whether that matters to the folks at WotC is a different question.
We now agree! Let there be feasting and great rejoicing! Bring mead and the finest meats and cheeses in all the lands!:PIf you think about it, our own 'history' only begins around 10,000 years ago - before that, its considered 'pre-history' (no written records).
Thanks to the Elves and the Creator Races, FR history is recorded back some 35,000 years! It is a bit... overwealming. ;)
Eberron History actually goes back further, I believe, but isn't anywhere near as 'full' (more like RW, with 'broad strokes, not specifics).
FR's immense volume of lore is both it's blessing and it's curse.
but its a lot easier to kill people with a gun
So? Does that mean the government has the right or obligation to override the U.S. Constitution's 2nd Amendment? This question applies to State and Local governments as well...
There you go. Blaming everyone, but yourself again.
Unfortuneately it is impossible for me to be blamed for this as I don't care if people change the canon to suit their campaign better. I am in for fun. If they want to change things, more power to them. If they want to only go by Canon, then great. As long as I am having fun, then it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
Isn't that what D&D is supposed to be about anyway?
Have fun, and Play safe.
:D
Isn't that what D&D is supposed to be about anyway?
Have fun, and Play safe.
:D
Depends who you are talking to. I completely agree with you, but as we know, opinions very.
But that goes along with another thread, now doesn't it?
None of your statements here or anyones over several years has been able to change their minds til now. So to me, your point is moot since the version you are preferring drove players away and the one you don't is bringing them back.
No one here, including you, has any hard statistics about how many people were driven away and how many people are coming back.
The only way WTOC could address this problem was with their product.
It's not the only way, it's just the way WotC chose.
And from everything I've EVER read about the beginning of time, Chanteau (the third deity in time) was languishing and Selune and Shar (the first two deities in time) were battling over this and the very next deity that came into existance was the deity of magic, even before the deity of war came about. From the GHotFR section (and I'm glad that chap stated it wasn't canon because he missed badly) it shows the magic deity being "made" like 9th or something. Now, I'm might be able to find where I read all this at but I've picked it up here and there over the years...and no telling if all that has been trashed right along with the true Realms so....please don't ask me to find it
And Marvel's "true Earth" dimension is 616 also ;) I looked it up to be completely sure.
So? Does that mean the government has the right or obligation to override the U.S. Constitution's 2nd Amendment? This question applies to State and Local governments as well...
who said they should. Although the Constitution only meant that the people should have the right to bear arms in order to protect themselves from an oppressive government, but thats neither hear nor there
No one here, including you, has any hard statistics about how many people were driven away and how many people are coming back.
I'm not speaking about total numbers, I talking about in my immediate area.
It's not the only way, it's just the way WotC chose.
What else could be done?
I'm not speaking about total numbers, I talking about in my immediate area.
And your immediate area may not represent the majority. Heck, your own account of what's happening in your area might not even be accurate.
What else could be done?
Why are you asking me? I don't work for WotC, I simply stated the truth. The setting could have been taken in numerous directions, and the direction we are getting is just one possible choice.
You are no more "in the know" about it than anyone else here is.
who said they should. Although the Constitution only meant that the people should have the right to bear arms in order to protect themselves from an oppressive government, but thats neither hear nor there
That is my point exactly
Too many people have been brainwashed that the 2nd Amendment is outdated and doesn't mean what it says. I guess the more urban the place you live, the more they will try to condition you that guns are a bad thing and should not be in civilian hands.I didn't know about that either. I would hope WotC did more substantial research than a simple culling of opinions from people at a bunch of Cons--a sample of the gaming populace that is almost without doubt not representitive of the majority.
My read from all of the interviews is that these complaints began with the Wizards designers themselves and that they sought out like opinions to confirm their feelings. In one of the podcasts dealing with the reasons for the changes (might have been Chris Perkins'), they made the startling statement that none of them were currently running an FR game---presumably even with the new and improved Spellplague changes in hand!
In the end, I think the thing that the Realms lacked most when the Spellplague decision was made was an Erik Mona: an insider who is also an afficianado of a setting. I certainly think the hue and cry over the proposed timeline jump in Eberron wasn't any greater than the upset over the realms---yet in one case, the core fans were listened to and, in another they were not. (Maybe James Wyatt served as guardian for Eberron?)
My read from all of the interviews is that these complaints began with the Wizards designers themselves and that they sought out like opinions to confirm their feelings.
That is certainly possible.
That is my point exactly
Indeed, could scarcely agree more.
As to the Realms and its current direction... I'm a bit torn about what I think of it. On one hand I see a lot of business major elements at work, ones that usually resulted in companies I worked for going out of business as they abandoned their niche market in favor of an attempt at being 'the next Big Thing'. On the other, I see the possibility that these changes were made to bring the Realms more into line with what the devs/designers found personally interesting, rather than what the fanbase found interesting. And on yet another hand (spells can be useful for multiple limbs :D), I can also see the possibility that the changes because they sincerely thought it would be an improvement to not only the Realms as a whole, but also good for drawing new folks into it.
A lot of their actions and ideas I can applaud when I think of them in the abstract, particularly the idea of universal utility to feats, classes, PrC's, and all that. I think its a great idea that should have been promoted much more loudly from the start of 3e. However, their alterations to fluff and the philosophy of removing redundancy and such I find appallingly bad decisions, which makes the things I do like very difficult to rectify in my mind. I'm far more interested in fluff, personally, and run a fluff heavy/crunch light campaign, so I see little in the way of reasons to spend a lot of money replacing rules that are 'good enough' for my needs. YMMV of course.
No real world politics here, please.
Oh OK.
Just one more point though. I didn't say the 2nd Amendment was outdated, I just said it doesn't say what you think it says
Multiverses have been hypothesized in cosmology, physics, astronomy, philosophy, theology, and fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. The specific term "multiverse," which was coined by William James, was popularized by science fiction author Michael Moorcock. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes," "quantum universes," "parallel worlds," "alternate realities," "alternative timelines," etc.
Michael Moorcock uses a Conjunction of the Million Spheres which everything has to be learned again old gods are forgotten, new magics are created, and new demigods battle for control. This concept opens many options for RPG PC allowing for as many struggles as before Spell Plague which seems very similar. The history and lore remains and is viable to the Realms for gaming. This is just another struggle for all of our Heros and Villians to deal with.
I am not completely converting to 4E. Our gaming group will take what may be useful and do our own world shaping as the transition goes. That is what we did with every transition since 1978. Thirty years of D&D and we still do it with our own house rules.
"And you in your pride thought you could produce the Kwisatz Haderach!" DUNE
Yeah, man...yeah. Hey, dude, pass that...I'm like there...sphere's, dude. Sphere's.
:D
As to the Multiverse thing... Great way to justify ignoring 4e really.
The following is related to this post, which took place on page 13 of this thread:
I've got an FR map on my computer that I'm not sure about the edition. It's not done in the usual 2e or 3e style. Is there a way I can figure out which edition it's from? I know 3e took the axe to a lot of spaces, but is there something specific I can look for and see, "Oh, this map doesn't have X, it must therefore be 3e," or whatever?
Would have started a new thread, but there was some context here that might be beneficial. And I would have had it up earlier, but I was on vacation for Memorial Day and wasn't checking email, so didn't get it until a few days after he sent it to me.
This is the mapThinblade had in question. It was actually a 12MB monster, but is now down to 2.5MB. Probably easier to save to your PC, so you can view it in an image viewer and such.
Looks 2e to me, but I'm no authority.
Earth 616, isn't that the comic book universe number for the "real" Earth? Leave the X-men outta this, though Nightcrawler is probably a Teifling now :/
-It's a way to help people understand.
And Karsus, are you playing 4ed?
-No.
Because NOTHING dwarves 1st lvl critters now, not even AO...or so I hear
-Okay. I'll take your word for it.
Wait a minute. Their shouldn't be anything controversial in the "Ancient History" part of the Grand History. Nearly everything there is firmly grounded in Realmslore. Which entries are you concerned about exactly?
-Emphasis mine.
What else could be done?
-Anything that encourages players to play for their players, if you get my drift.
-Anything that encourages players to play for their players, if you get my drift.
No I have no clue what you're talking about.
On a lighter note I got a job today.
No I have no clue what you're talking about.
On a lighter note I got a job today.
That is always good to hear. :D
And congratulations on the job Krevon, never a bad thing to have gainful employment.
No I have no clue what you're talking about.
-The question: What can WotC have done to prevent some of the misconceptions that "watchers" have, and prevent some of the "abuses" that many players and DMs do?
-The answer: Anything that encourages DMs to not "direct their own movies", and allow the players the ability to take place in those movies, and rather, to allow the players to determine their own fates and what not. Make more sense now?
-The question: What can WotC have done to prevent some of the misconceptions that "watchers" have, and prevent some of the "abuses" that many players and DMs do?
-The answer: Anything that encourages DMs to not "direct their own movies", and allow the players the ability to take place in those movies, and rather, to allow the players to determine their own fates and what not. Make more sense now?
Sure, putting it context helps tremendously.
And thanks everyone for the congrats.....I'm actually doing what I went to college to do.
Sure, putting it context helps tremendously.
-Yup. That said, because, in my opinion, the Forgotten Realms are a very "epic" setting (as in grandeur, and not the D&D definition), a lot of DMs feel the need to include everything in their "master story"- Elminster, Myth Drannor, and so on and so forth- that things become "corney" for a lack of better words, if you know what I mean. And that, in turn, lowers the..."value" of the game for everyone.
And thanks everyone for the congrats.....I'm actually doing what I went to college to do.
-A plus. Definitley a plus.
-Yup. That said, because, in my opinion, the Forgotten Realms are a very "epic" setting (as in grandeur, and not the D&D definition), a lot of DMs feel the need to include everything in their "master story"- Elminster, Myth Drannor, and so on and so forth- that things become "corney" for a lack of better words, if you know what I mean. And that, in turn, lowers the..."value" of the game for everyone.
Well put
-A plus. Definitley a plus.
Yeah, now I'll just have to adjust my weekly game I run and then it will gold.
And thanks everyone for the congrats.....I'm actually doing what I went to college to do.
I'm late to the party, but congrats.
Thanks, Judge, both for the image conversion and for posting it here. I should have done that myself, but I've been working 16 hour days for the past week. I'll create a new thread asking about it.
No problem. My apologies for posting it here.
Unfortunately, I was looking at the number of replies that spoke of geography in the following posts and not the number of actual posters.
Don't slice me!
No problem. My apologies for posting it here.
Unfortunately, I was looking at the number of replies that spoke of geography in the following posts and not the number of actual posters.
Don't slice me!
*slice*
*slice*
Don't make me start throwing razor sharp tortilla's at you, you ambushing pansy!
You might just lose that new job over, say, a disability...?
Hmmm...?