Gorm Gulthyn (dead, killed during the attack on Hammergrim)
Haela Brightaxe (dead, killed during the attack on Hammergrim)
Laduguer (dead, killed by Moradin)
Deep Duerra (dead, killed by Clangeddin)
Helm (dead, killed by Tyr)
Mystra (we all know this one)
Eilistraee (dead, killed by the Crescent Blade)
Vhaerun (dead, killed by Eilistraee)
Kiaransalee (dead, erased by a high magic ritual)
Azuth (dead, killed by Asmodeus for his divinity)
Lathander (transformed into Amaunator)
Talos (revealed to be an aspect of Gruumsh)
Aerdrie Faenya (revealed to be an aspect of Akadi, subsequently defeated by Auril)
Deneir ?
Eldath ?
Anybody else I'm missing? I know there's some, but I figured this'd be a good start.
Gilgeam: Former god of battle, prowess, strength, Unther. Slain by Tiamat.
Girru: Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
Inanna: Former Goddess of War and Love. Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
Ki: Former Spirit/mother-goddess of the Earth. Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
Marduk: Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
Nanna-Sin: Former God of The Moon and protection against Evil. Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
Nergal: Former god of the underworld.[12] Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
Ramman: Former god of duty, order, vigilance, war. Slain by Hoar.
Utu: Former God of the Sun and Justice. Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
Auppenser: Former god of enlightenment, psionics, serenity. Faded from lack of worship.
Bhaal: Former god of assassination, murder, violence. Slain by Cyric and Mask.
Chronos: Former god of time.
Earthmother: Former goddess of life. Slain by Bhaal.
Eshowdow: Former god of Chult. Slain by Shar.
Ibrandul: Former god of Caverns, dungeons, skulks. Slain by Shar.
Iyachtu Xvim: Former god of tyranny, hatred, fear. Destroyed by Bane during his return.
Jazirian: Former god of couatls. Slain by Merrshaulk.
Kalzareinad: Former god of the uncaring, evil, or selfish application of dragon magic. Slain by Kareska.
Karsus: Former god of magic, hubris. Died following the sacrifice of Mystryl.
Kiputytto: Former goddess of sickness. Slain by Talona.
Kukul: Former Maztican god of creation
Leira: Former goddess of deception, illusion. Slain by Cyric and Mask.
Moander: Former god of decay, corruption, rot. Slain by Finder Wyvernspur.
Murdane: Former goddess of reason, pragmatism. Slain during the Dawn Cataclysm.
Myrkul: Former god of corruption, the dead, death, old age. Slain by Mystra.
Mystra: The reincarnated Mystryl and former goddess of magic, spells, and the Weave. Slain by Helm during the Time of Troubles and replaced by the mortal woman Midnight (who now goes by Mystra's name).
Mystryl: Original goddess of magic created by the combined essences of Selûne and Shar. Sacrificed herself to repair the damage caused by Karsus's ascension.
Othea: Former goddess of giants, motherhood. Slain by Lanaxis, one of her children.
Ra: Former Mulhorandi god of the sun. Slain by Gruumsh.
The Seven Lost Gods, all of whom "bowed down before Bane", including:
o Camnod the Unseen
o Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud: Former god of anger
o Haask, the Voice of Hargut
o Maram of the Great Spear
o Tyranthraxus the Flamed One[41]
Tyche: Former goddess of luck. Split into Beshaba and Tymora.
Valigan Thirdborn: Former god of anarchy. Slain by Tyr.
World Serpent: Former god of the sarrukh. Fragmented into the deities of the lizardfolk, naga, and yuan-ti.
Eilistraee (dead, killed by the Crescent Blade)
Eilistraee was not killed by the Crescent Blade. Qilue was. Eilistraee vanished in front of Lolth, who had not even attacked her directly. Even Lolth was surprised. Corellon simply showed up the next moment, implying that he absorbed Eilistraee in some way.
It's entirely possible that she is just in Corellon's custody, and he is hiding her in some way.
Additionally, Kiaransalee's name -not the goddess herself- was erased from collective memory in the Realms. Although this was accomplished through Drow high magic, it did not kill her so much as remove her influence in Realmspace.
Eilistraee was not killed by the Crescent Blade. Qilue was. Eilistraee vanished in front of Lolth, who had not even attacked her directly.
She 'vanished' to go to Toril and inhabited Qilue's body. Eilistraee and Qilue were one and the same when they died. Part of her death was what helped power the High Magic that saved her people (and all Drow without tainted blood)
Even Lolth was surprised. Corellon simply showed up the next moment, implying that he absorbed Eilistraee in some way.
He showed up after Lolth saw that they were no longer Drow.
It's entirely possible that she is just in Corellon's custody, and he is hiding her in some way.
Highly doubtful.
Additionally, Kiaransalee's name -not the goddess herself- was erased from collective memory in the Realms. Although this was accomplished through Drow high magic, it did not kill her so much as remove her influence in Realmspace.
This is correct.
She 'vanished' to go to Toril and inhabited Qilue's body. Eilistraee and Qilue were one and the same when they died. Part of her death was what helped power the High Magic that saved her people (and all Drow without tainted blood)
You're mistaking the timing of events. Qilue died first, and Qilue only was influenced by an avatar, not the entirety of Eilistraee. Qilue was also inhabited by the avatar at the same time Eilistraee was playing sava with Lolth. And it's well-established that slaying a goddess (or god) in the Realms requires destruction of more than their avatar.
Highly doubtful.
I guess you can read it how you want, it's your game, but the book was fairly vague about her death and where her energies "went" so to speak. Remember too that Eilistraee's realm did not collapse, as deific realms tend to do when their deities are dead.
Marduk: Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
Actually, Marduk (Dragons of Faerun), was an aspect of Bahamut who battled Tiamat and vanquished her yet was grievously wounded. I don't have the book to check specifics, but Marduk wasn't killed. I believe that Lost Empires (which predated the dragon book...) stated he died during the war but not state that an orc deity killed him.
Earthmother: Former goddess of life. Slain by Bhaal.
I'm not sure of this. I thought the Earthmother was the name given to how Chauntea (I might be wrong on this...) was worshipped on the Moonshae Isles and that another name for Chauntea was also Jannath...
Jazirian: Former god of couatls. Slain by Merrshaulk.
In Maztica, I believe there existed a god named Qotal and that he was an aspect of Jazirian which the couatl who moved there worshipped. I think he made the Sarrukh into couatls. I believe this was in Serpent Kingdoms. So, although Jazirian was defeated in a battle by Merrshaulk, I believe there is doubt to his actual death.
Moander: Former god of decay, corruption, rot. Slain by Finder Wyvernspur.
Moander, IMO, is like having mold in your house. There is no getting rid of him and many books since then have mentioned his return and worshippers. I'm not sure that he has ever actually been killed even if a particular book may have said so.
Inanna: Former Goddess of War and Love. Slain by an unnamed orc deity.
This has always bugged me because, to the best of my knowledge, Inanna and Ishtar are different names for the same deity. They even share many myths and legends as well as characteristics. However, in Lost Empires of Faerun it was mentioned that some time after the orc gate wars Ishtar put her followers in the care of Isis who accepted their worship even though they continued to call her Ishtar. Then Ishtar left Realmspace. So, I have always questioned Inanna actually dying.
I will try to list some more (one more?)
Herne: he was killed by Malar in Evermeet: Isle of Elves
Ulutiu (sp) was killed by Auril, finally, I believe.
Ilneval, the orc god of war is no longer around. Gruumsh has at least one goblin type god in his realm. Perhaps this god killed Ilneval. We have no specific information, but I believe his death to be more likely than not. But, that is just me.
I am sure there are more, I just can't think right now.
Moander, IMO, is like having mold in your house. There is no getting rid of him and many books since then have mentioned his return and worshippers. I'm not sure that he has ever actually been killed even if a particular book may have said so.
True, I'm pretty sure Moander is "only mostly dead" (I forget which sourcebook I read that in, though).
The Untheric pantheon is the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons originally described in 1st edition Deities & Demigods and reiterated in On Hallowed Ground. These aren't exactly the historical Earth pantheons of those names; the differences between them were exaggerated by James Ward and Robert Kuntz (the authors of Deities & Demigods) to make them more plausibly stand out as separate pantheons. On Hallowed Ground took the stance that the Babylonian pantheon was birthed in some way by the Sumerian pantheon; for example, Inanna's aspect as Ishtar grew so distinct that eventually she became a completely separate goddess.
Why the people of Unther ended up worshiping both pantheons simultaneously isn't properly explained; possibly the Imaskari brought slaves from two different eras.
In their D&D/Untheric incarnation, these are the Sumerian and Babylonian gods:
BABYLONIAN PANTHEON
Anu - LN
Anshar - CE
Druaga - LE (not a Babylonian god in real life; actually another name for the Zoroastrian god of evil, Ahriman. But on whatever alternate-Earth Babylon that the Mulani came from, they worship Druaga along with the Babylonian gods.)
Girru - LG
Ishtar - N (she has a realm in Elysium)
Marduk - LN (although the retcon that made him an aspect of Bahamut complicates that; since he's not an aspect of Bahamut on other worlds, they probably made the "switch" within Realmspace)
Nergal - NE (his bride Ereshkigal is also mentioned in various products)
Ramman - N
SUMERIAN PANTHEON
Enlil - NG
Enki - LN (per On Hallowed Ground, he was recently slain by Nergal and Anshar)
Inanna - LE (she dwells in the Nine Hells, a fact confirmed in Fiendish Codex II, making her very different from Ishtar).
Ki - N
Nanna-Sin - CG
Nin-Hursag - N
Utu - CG
Slightly off topic, but I've never seen any info on it... Can anyone tell me about Maglubiyet, god of Goblins? The most info I've been able to find on him is "He's the god of goblins, now serving and living with Gruumsh." Other than that I really know nothing of him, not even his favored weapon or domains/spheres...
Warhammer. Destruction, Evil, Planning, Trickery.
On Moander: Uh, didn't Finder take his stuff? Doesn't that count as him being dead?
Now LEIRA...there is a deity we will never know is dead or not. (Completely different circumstances from Moander, you know.) I am convinced she will make a triumphant return in 4e.
Hey, why am I the only one cheering? I'm telling the truth...I swear!Eilistraee was not killed by the Crescent Blade. Qilue was. Eilistraee vanished in front of Lolth, who had not even attacked her directly. Even Lolth was surprised. Corellon simply showed up the next moment, implying that he absorbed Eilistraee in some way.
It's entirely possible that she is just in Corellon's custody, and he is hiding her in some way.
Additionally, Kiaransalee's name -not the goddess herself- was erased from collective memory in the Realms. Although this was accomplished through Drow high magic, it did not kill her so much as remove her influence in Realmspace.
To be precise ...
Eilistraee ... as has been written in the novel ... was slain by that blow, the priestesses of her knew that instantly (as was the case with the Selvetarmites). She transferred herself from the sava table into the demon-tainted wreck that was Qilué (an hence the author broke canon as no deity can enter the material world, only her avatars do) and when the latter was beheaded, the godslaying sword fulfilled its purpose.
Kiaransalee's name was erased by an High (Dark not Drow) Elven ritual, but (as in: BUT) as described by the text, it only affected drow who were tied to the Underdark radiation at the time. Hence, all half-drow or non.drow followers of Kiaransalee were essentially unaffacted, as should have been those who were not within the Underdark at the time. Furthermore, it did not remove her name from any scrolls or tomes, especially not those of non-drow sages. And furthermore furthermore (
) we do know that Kiaransaleens are actually actively hunting the delude folk of Orcus all over the planes (just check the entry on the Banshee Knights in Demihuman Deities) and when such a group returns to Toril, it would be unaffected and able to bring the faith back in no-time. There were so many holes in that story that it actually beggars belief that the editors / designers let it pass.In any case, I for one do not care what 4E did to the Realms, as they are no longer my Realms. It is essentially much like when Eberron hit the shelves, i.e. in essence another setting.
I'm not sure of this. I thought the Earthmother was the name given to how Chauntea (I might be wrong on this...) was worshipped on the Moonshae Isles and that another name for Chauntea was also Jannath...
In 2e, Earthmother was separate, in 3e, they retconned her in to being Chauntea, but I don't know if they did anything with her in 4e.
In 2e, Earthmother was separate, in 3e, they retconned her in to being Chauntea, but I don't know if they did anything with her in 4e.
She was mentioned in one of the threads on here as possibly being converted into something of an archfey for 4e. This was in...I believe, the Ask the Designers Thread or one of the other similar threads like that.
The list will be edited to add some of the deities mentioned on here.
I believe Bast absorbed Zandilar the Dancer after the tragic Archfey gave birth to Selvatarm.
Is this thread "spoilerfree"? I think I know another one...
Did Shargaas, Yurtrus, Luthic and Baghtru survive the wars in Gruumsh realm?
Shargaas, and Bahgtru are both exarchs of Gruumsh, and Luthic is a goddess and consort of Gruumsh. Who knows about Yurtrus though. The others are mentioned in the FRCS.
I believe Bast absorbed Zandilar the Dancer after the tragic Archfey gave birth to Selvatarm.
As far as I know, that's the case as well. Although didn't Bast eventually become another goddess? Sharess or something like that?
Is this thread "spoilerfree"? I think I know another one...
Go for it, you can always sub-set it to avoid spoiling those who wish not to be spoiled. But for me, spoil away!
To be honest I thought Mystra's death far more significant then Ellistreas. I think I've grown to accept these decisions as it gives alot of story ideas.
Like this entry from the FRCG: "50,000gp: A strand of Mystra's hair around a gold pin"
Makes me think of the whole Hand of Bane how it could have been used to bring Bane back.
I figure it's more fun to stop complaining, get to playing and kicking evil's a$$.
Slightly off topic, but I've never seen any info on it... Can anyone tell me about Maglubiyet, god of Goblins? The most info I've been able to find on him is "He's the god of goblins, now serving and living with Gruumsh." Other than that I really know nothing of him, not even his favored weapon or domains/spheres...
See this link: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Maglubiyet
Their favored weapon is the axe, like the axe their deity is said to wield.
To be precise ...
Eilistraee ... as has been written in the novel ... was slain by that blow, the priestesses of her knew that instantly (as was the case with the Selvetarmites). She transferred herself from the sava table into the demon-tainted wreck that was Qilué (an hence the author broke canon as no deity can enter the material world, only her avatars do) and when the latter was beheaded, the godslaying sword fulfilled its purpose.
Sorry, you are incorrect. Regardless of what the priestesses believed of Eilistraee, in the coda that follows the events of the mortals, after Qilue and Eilistraee's avatar were killed, we see in the sava game itself what truly happened, starting from the point of Cavatina's death:
- Eilistraee was forced to sacrifice Cavatina. And at this point, we also know that Cavatina's soul was not destroyed, because Cavatina and others appear after death on the plain of souls. Without Wendonai, the crescent blade no longer has the power to destroy souls.
- Unlike the piece for Cavatina, which cracked and split after the real Cavatina was slain, Eilistraee's Mother piece (i.e. the goddess herself) was not "slain." Eilistraee removed her own Mother piece from the sava board by taking it (and herself) out of the game. She then vanishes, but the game is not over: by Lolth's view, Eilistraee's moon had not vanished, it was eclipsed. Lolth sees that Eilistraee is "still there, somewhere," and the sava game is still in play.
- Eilistraee's final move reveals a second Mother piece, hidden (i.e. her avatar, but not her). In losing the second Mother piece (which also, incidentally, was not beheaded on the sava board as Cavatina's piece was), Corellon takes Eilistraee's chair opposite Lolth.
- Eilistraee's realm "wavered" but was not destroyed. Realms, by canon, change slightly as another deity (in this case) takes up the power of another deity. And deities don't necessarily die when they lose their power and portfolio to another being. Corellon is now that realm's keeper, and he kept it as it was.
- Finally, the best evidence we have against the soul-destruction of both Qilue and Eilistraee is the fact that Cavatina's soul survived and made its way to Arvandor. Although Qilue / Eilistraee's avatar were beheaded, the soul-slaying power was no more. Qilue was in no danger of losing her soul to oblivion, and Eilistraee knew this.
Conclusions? That the soul of Qilue and Eilistraee's essence are hidden and under Corellon's protection. Eilistraee's realm wavered as Corellon took Eilistraee's essence into himself. Neither were destroyed, they're in safe keeping. Leliana and the other priestesses were wrong about Eilistraee's death. But they needed to be, so that the "cleansed" dark elves could turn back to Corellon rather than remaining apart from him by worshipping Eilistraee.
Sorry, you are incorrect. Regardless of what the priestesses believed of Eilistraee, in the coda that follows the events of the mortals, after Qilue and Eilistraee's avatar were killed, we see in the sava game itself what truly happened, starting from the point of Cavatina's death:
- Eilistraee was forced to sacrifice Cavatina. And at this point, we also know that Cavatina's soul was not destroyed, because Cavatina and others appear after death on the plain of souls. Without Wendonai, the crescent blade no longer has the power to destroy souls.
- Unlike the piece for Cavatina, which cracked and split after the real Cavatina was slain, Eilistraee's Mother piece (i.e. the goddess herself) was not "slain." Eilistraee removed her own Mother piece from the sava board by taking it (and herself) out of the game. She then vanishes, but the game is not over: by Lolth's view, Eilistraee's moon had not vanished, it was eclipsed. Lolth sees that Eilistraee is "still there, somewhere," and the sava game is still in play.
- Eilistraee's final move reveals a second Mother piece, hidden (i.e. her avatar, but not her). In losing the second Mother piece (which also, incidentally, was not beheaded on the sava board as Cavatina's piece was), Corellon takes Eilistraee's chair opposite Lolth.
- Eilistraee's realm "wavered" but was not destroyed. Realms, by canon, change slightly as another deity (in this case) takes up the power of another deity. And deities don't necessarily die when they lose their power and portfolio to another being. Corellon is now that realm's keeper, and he kept it as it was.
- Finally, the best evidence we have against the soul-destruction of both Qilue and Eilistraee is the fact that Cavatina's soul survived and made its way to Arvandor. Although Qilue / Eilistraee's avatar were beheaded, the soul-slaying power was no more. Qilue was in no danger of losing her soul to oblivion, and Eilistraee knew this.
Conclusions? That the soul of Qilue and Eilistraee's essence are hidden and under Corellon's protection. Eilistraee's realm wavered as Corellon took Eilistraee's essence into himself. Neither were destroyed, they're in safe keeping. Leliana and the other priestesses were wrong about Eilistraee's death. But they needed to be, so that the "cleansed" dark elves could turn back to Corellon rather than remaining apart from him by worshipping Eilistraee.
i hope all of that is correct. =]
We all know that deities or powers rarely die for good. If someone doesn't want to accept this, the Servant of the Fallen feat can instantly relieve you of nigh all pain and the next epic campaign can see the re-establishment of her or any dead god's faith.
i hope all of that is correct. =]
Factually, it's exactly what happened in the last few pages of the novel in question. So canon-wise, my conclusion that she still exists would fit. At least for now.
The simpler explanation, with Eilistraee getting destroyed, is also possible. But it isn't "fact" (at least not yet) in terms of canon lore. I'm just pointing out that many people have taken the few facts available so far and have all pretty much jumped to the conclusion that she was destroyed. Including, apparently, Eilistraee's priestesses at the time of the event. But until designers give us a full run-down, my explanation would also fit canon facts and it seems like an interesting "out" for those who might like the alternative.
I think it was nice, and very clever, of Lisa Smedman to leave it a little open to interpretation. That always benefits people in terms of what they might want for their own game.
Therise ... maybe I was imprecise. Eilistraee is dead as a goddess for the Realms.
In terms of canon, she is missing and presumed dead. I'm just pointing out that everyone's certainty of her death has been lacking in terms of evidence.
She might be dead, but until we know otherwise she might have been saved.
Whether she is really really dead is another matter. Whether Corellon takes up her seat does not really matter here. He does take over her realm and hence all the souls. Keep in mind that by the time the redeemed Cavatina (her soul, that is) was taken in by (AFAIK) heralds of Corellon, not Eilistraee.
Those were Corellon's heralds, yes. But that doesn't change anything with respect to what I've pointed out above. As of this moment, her death as you and others described it is far from certain.
We all know that deities or powers rarely die for good. If someone doesn't want to accept this, the Servant of the Fallen feat can instantly relieve you of nigh all pain and the next epic campaign can see the re-establishment of her or any dead god's faith.
I suppose, but that's more of an argument for Running the Realms than discussion of Realms lore.
IMHO anyways.
Who else are we missing? Deneir, Eldath, Lurue, Nobanion, a few others? I'll try and update the list later on a bit more extensively.
The PCs have the opportunity to be all big'n'bad and actually be mythic hereos, whereas in the pre-Spellplague era, there were already oodles of big fish were there to outshine the PCs.
-All you need is a character a single level higher than "yours", or with a class ability that "your" character can use, and you're "outshined". It used to happen, still does, and always will.
It's a totally new Realms with all the old goodies...
Emphasis mine. I couldn't disagree more. If the new Realms really did have "all the old goodies" (that is, stuff about the setting I enjoyed), I'd be far less inclined to completely disregard it.
The PCs have the opportunity to be all big'n'bad and actually be mythic hereos, whereas in the pre-Spellplague era, there were already oodles of big fish were there to outshine the PCs.
Again, I couldn't disagree more with that assessment. However, this particular debate pops up all the time here and I certainly don't feel like arguing the point.
As much as the Spellplague totally turned my world upside down, I'm slowly getting into the idea of it. It's a totally new Realms with all the old goodies, plus a whole slew more. The PCs have the opportunity to be all big'n'bad and actually be mythic hereos, whereas in the pre-Spellplague era, there were already oodles of big fish were there to outshine the PCs.
I just fail to see the irony in here? Maybe there ain't none? That would be a shocking thought though ...
The Realms a playground for ... mythic game-table heroes? Off into the mainstream role-playing mass market then?
Their favored weapon is the axe, like the axe their deity is said to wield.
So I take it the Faiths & Pantheons chart on pg. 221 has a typo? I did do a double take when I saw "warhammer" but thought maybe there was some goblin lore I didn't know about. The axe certainly fits much better with the listed symbol! :P
Interesting stuff on Eilistraee. I'll have to read extra carefully whenever I get there.
Sort of an opposite of the main question, but is there some important reason Ghaunadaur is NOT dead??????? I mean, why have him stick around instead of x, y, or z?
Emphasis mine. I couldn't disagree more. If the new Realms really did have "all the old goodies" (that is, stuff about the setting I enjoyed), I'd be far less inclined to completely disregard it.
Again, I couldn't disagree more with that assessment. However, this particular debate pops up all the time here and I certainly don't feel like arguing the point.
To each their own eh? The age old debate goes on...
Viva la 4e!
So I take it the Faiths & Pantheons chart on pg. 221 has a typo? I did do a double take when I saw "warhammer" but thought maybe there was some goblin lore I didn't know about. The axe certainly fits much better with the listed symbol! :P
Interesting stuff on Eilistraee. I'll have to read extra carefully whenever I get there.
Sort of an opposite of the main question, but is there some important reason Ghaunadaur is NOT dead??????? I mean, why have him stick around instead of x, y, or z?
IIRC he is now the main deity of ALL aberrations. When Lolth went on a rampage and devoured the drow pantheon, Ghaunadaur went and hid in a pocket realm (or something to that effect) and slowly increased his power, focusing on aberrations.
Also, GOBLINS RULE!
Also, GOBLINS RULE!
My Realms have a goblinoid nation called the Goblin Holds, so I'm not disagreeing with you there...:D
Yeah, in my Realms, Eilistraee is still around, and there won't ever be a Spellplague.
Totally in agreement :D
Still want to take the oppertunity to thank therise.
the lady penitant trilogy was the equivilant of peter griffin from family guy eating a pinecone for his wifes crazy rich father.
it has single handidly kept me from delving in any 4th edition of the realms.
Yeah, in my Realms, Eilistraee is still around, and there won't ever be a Spellplague.
*hugs*
I love you Rino! :P
My Realms have a goblinoid nation called the Goblin Holds, so I'm not disagreeing with you there...:D
I must consult me DM about having a small goblin city in Many-Arrows or someplace similar... we pretty much go by the book for Realms
*hugs*
I love you Rino! :P
Thanks. *hugs back*:D
To each their own eh?
Yes.
Actually, Marduk (Dragons of Faerun), was an aspect of Bahamut who battled Tiamat and vanquished her yet was grievously wounded.
For a elegant solution, I must say that I really like that article from Mr Thomas costa
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0204c&L=realms-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=7613
Her (Tiamat)moves to expand her humanoid clergy,
has prompted Bahamut to adopt the alias of Tiamat's other great foe, Marduk
the Justice Bringer of the Untheric (Babylonian) pantheon. Though Marduk had
long since left Realmspace, many still looked back to the better days when
his presence and justice were felt among the Old Empires. Marduk, however,
had no desire to struggle to reclaim his following on Toril in the wake of
the Godswar there, and instead grudgingly allowed Bahamut to use his name as
an alias on that world to develop a force to defeat Tiamat.
I don't have the book to check specifics, but Marduk wasn't killed. I believe that Lost Empires (which predated the dragon book...) stated he died during the war but not state that an orc deity killed him.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgeam
In -1071 DR, Gilgeam and his pantheon marched to war against the deities of the orc pantheon in a cataclysmic conflict that saw the death of many gods. During the final Battle of the Gods, Tiamat launched a surprise attack against Gilgeam; the ever-vigilant Marduk intervened, sacrificing his life to kill Tiamat and save the God-king. Gilgeam grew increasingly tyrannical after this and the people of Unther never forgot the Nemesis of the Gods
Also, GOBLINS RULE!
It seems lately that goblins and goblinoids in general are being made completely subservient to orcs. The old conflicts that date back to the first edition between orcs and goblins are being swept away. Even the orc and goblinoid afterlife has been shaken up since their gods aren't waging an eternal war against each other. If Ol' Mag has become one of Gruumsh's lieutenants, all of the older material describing them as rivals and opponents is out the window.
It seems lately that goblins and goblinoids in general are being made completely subservient to orcs. The old conflicts that date back to the first edition between orcs and goblins are being swept away. Even the orc and goblinoid afterlife has been shaken up since their gods aren't waging an eternal war against each other. If Ol' Mag has become one of Gruumsh's lieutenants, all of the older material describing them as rivals and opponents is out the window.
Which really sucks... I got no issues with goblin slaves, since that's how orcs are, but I've always loved how orcs and goblins fought each other... Orcs raid goblin camp, win easily... that night, goblin survivors assasinate orcs, take their stuff, **** on the corpses ( they're CE IIRC) and have lots o' sex to make a new camp, and the cycle begins anew...
Which really sucks... I got no issues with goblin slaves, since that's how orcs are, but I've always loved how orcs and goblins fought each other... Orcs raid goblin camp, win easily... that night, goblin survivors assasinate orcs, take their stuff, **** on the corpses ( they're CE IIRC) and have lots o' sex to make a new camp, and the cycle begins anew...
There was a fundamental difference in them. The orcs were in-your-face while the goblins were more likely to try to get behind you. Orcs are highly militaristic and expansionist and goblins will either swamp you with numbers or try to cut you down when you're not paying attention.
The one thing they both had in common was that they believed, and their gods reinforced, that they alone deserved to rule the world. Gruumsh told his followers that they would win favor taking as they pleased. Ol' Mag drove his followers to take everything they wanted and kill anything that got in their way. When both instill a might is right mentality among their followers, how is it that Ol' Mag became subservient?
There was a fundamental difference in them. The orcs were in-your-face while the goblins were more likely to try to get behind you. Orcs are highly militaristic and expansionist and goblins will either swamp you with numbers or try to cut you down when you're not paying attention.
-Heh, I've always done it the exact opposite way: Goblinoids were always fairly militaristic and "civilized", while Orcs were the chaotic, just-higher-than-baseline-animals.
-Heh, I've always done it the exact opposite way: Goblinoids were always fairly militaristic and "civilized", while Orcs were the chaotic, just-higher-than-baseline-animals.
Goblins are described as opportunistic and stealthy. I've always made them run if they don't outnumber a party by ten to one. Granted they're just leading them into a well-placed ambush, but they still run.
Hobgoblins are probably what you're thinking of. They're really similar to the way orcs are described.
It seems lately that goblins and goblinoids in general are being made completely subservient to orcs. The old conflicts that date back to the first edition between orcs and goblins are being swept away. Even the orc and goblinoid afterlife has been shaken up since their gods aren't waging an eternal war against each other. If Ol' Mag has become one of Gruumsh's lieutenants, all of the older material describing them as rivals and opponents is out the window.
Well then, you should take a look at Chandos Tiberias. He is a (4th edition) half-orc cleric of my creation who heads the remnants of a church known as the Gambit of the Clever Arm. It was originally a heretic church of Ilneval, but now that the Clever Arm is gone (dead?) from the Realms it is sort of like a servant of the fallen church.
Anyway, he at least carries on some old traditions such as the mounting on pikes of the heads of the goblin shaman/clerics. So, the enmity felt by the original lieutenent of Gruumsh for the goblinoids still lives on through him and his family.
There is always exceptions, but it isn't the norm.
Actually, this thread is dedicated to the Decline of the FR Pantheon, not some debates on hobbies and gobbies and whatnot. Cheers folks!
And the pruning of the orc and goblinoid pantheon in the forgotten realms is less important that any of the others? I get it, gobbos and snorters ain't as sexy as the Drow, so losing their gods doesn't matter.
Speciest.
Anyway, he at least carries on some old traditions such as the mounting on pikes of the heads of the goblin shaman/clerics. So, the enmity felt by the original lieutenent of Gruumsh for the goblinoids still lives on through him and his family.
You'd like the goblin character* I have in a friend's campaign. He pretty much only ever prays to the Stalker** and loves nothing more than catching an inattentive orc sentry.
*No one thinks of goblins as a threat. I joined the campaign at 5th level with this one, three rogue and two fighter. The party was in an old tunnel complex infested with orcs and the character's history included a serious dislike for orcs. They learned very quickly that a goblin with a firm grasp of tactics and a couple levels can be horribly lethal, bloody hard to catch and near impossible to hit.
**Remember him? Old god, shoved out of his home by the orcs and goblinoids in the dawn of prehistory. Orcs and goblinoids fear the Stalker and that's the way he likes it.
And the pruning of the orc and goblinoid pantheon in the forgotten realms is less important that any of the others? I get it, gobbos and snorters ain't as sexy as the Drow, so losing their gods doesn't matter.
Speciest.
Not that you have been debating goblinoid deities et al, have you?
Cease the point and move on.Not that you have been debating goblinoid deities et al, have you?
Well, then what happened to Yurtrus, Illnevel, Bagrivyek, Khurgorbaeyag, Nomog-Gaeya, Bahgtru, Luthic, Shargaas, Gerdreg, Hruggek, Grankhul, Skiggaret and the Stalker? Those are the other gods in the goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear and orc pantheons. What happened to all of them?
I tell you what, Sunshine, you go make a thread for the Drow deities and I'll go make one for the goblinoid and orc ones. Until then, they both belong right here.
Well, then what happened to Yurtrus, Illnevel, Bagrivyek, Khurgorbaeyag, Nomog-Gaeya, Bahgtru, Luthic, Shargaas, Gerdreg, Hruggek, Grankhul, Skiggaret and the Stalker? Those are the other gods in the goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear and orc pantheons. What happened to all of them?
I tell you what, Sunshine, you go make a thread for the Drow deities and I'll go make one for the goblinoid and orc ones. Until then, they both belong right here.
Cannot see your point in being offended ... you were talking all sorts of things above, not the goblionoid deities. That I pointed out, nothing more, nothing less.
Cannot see your point in being offended ... you were talking all sorts of things above, not the goblionoid deities. That I pointed out, nothing more, nothing less.
Goblinpride was talking about the goblin deities and the orc deities. So was I.
The pantheons have always been at war. With the spellplague at least Ilneval (Gruumsh's lieutenant) is gone now and I am not sure how many of the goblinoid pantheons.
We mentioned this.
Now one of the goblinoids resides in Nishrek despite the eternal war that has been waged.
We discussed that.
We then began discussing what this would mean with respect to the continual goblin and orc wars occurring in Faerun.
Because we actually play D&D and this is a D&D forum we made a tangential excursion to a couple characters of our own.
So, if anyone wants to complain about me mentioning a character, they know where they can put it.
So, if anyone wants to complain about me mentioning a character, they know where they can put it.
And I can think of a couple rather interesting options for getting it there. Just ask, I'd be more than happy to help....
And I can think of a couple rather interesting options for getting it there. Just ask, I'd be more than happy to help....
Despite the new astral domain arrangements, I think that would be too much cooperation.
However, on the bright side, such attempts at cooperation are short-lived and usually result in someone (or multiple someones) getting stabbed in the back (usually orcs) by a goblin or perhaps an explosion of carnage which will leave a whole tribe of goblins (not to mention a whole lot of orcs) looking like a pile of entrails. Ah, the beauty of it. It gives me a warm feeling inside.
Anyway, back on topic...
There have always been cultists and such who have followed dead deities. So much so that WotC finally came out with the Servant of the Fallen feat.
So, I am wondering how many spots there are where cults related to these deceased deities would exist. Although their large scale worship was most certainly removed by the spellplague, I believe it reasonable that concentrations of worship may have produced believers who would not giveup.
Where do people believe those places most likely to be?
However, on the bright side, such attempts at cooperation are short-lived and usually result in someone (or multiple someones) getting stabbed in the back (usually orcs) by a goblin or perhaps an explosion of carnage which will leave a whole tribe of goblins (not to mention a whole lot of orcs) looking like a pile of entrails. Ah, the beauty of it. It gives me a warm feeling inside.
That's just gas, mate.
Bagrivyek would allow a degree of cooperation, but that's only among the goblinoids. He would chafe at the idea of sharing anything with the orc deities, much less being subservient to them.
Khurgorbaeyeg, the patron of goblins and one of Ol'Mag's leiutenants is the god of slavery, oppression and morale. He might accept orcs as slaves, but as oppressors? The god himself would find the first chance to off one of the orc gods and slip his chains.
Nomog-Geaya, the patron of hobgoblins, has war and authority as his portfolio. Not exactly one to be cowed into submission by Old One Eye.
And that doesn't even take into account Ol' Mag himself. When rulership is part of your portfolio, I can't imagine that it'd be too easy to force submission. Considering that the war Nine Hells has been going on since both Gruumsh and Ol' Mag moved in, I can't see the two of them suddenly getting along.
I could see them calling a truce to obliterate a member of the Seldarine claiming part of their territory, but joining forces? You'd have a better chance getting a cat to mate with a dog.
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