The Spellplague and ancient magic - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The Spellplague and ancient magic

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kurzon
Jan 24, 2009 18:06:17 A common plot theme in fantasy fiction like D&D is hunting for the powerful magic of dead civilizations (Atlantis, Netheril, etc). However, with the Spellplague, magic has been totally reworked; the difference is greater than the 2ed-3ed leap. Wouldn't this mean ancient spelltomes would be obsolete? They'd be listing formulae that no longer work.

If you ask me, the writers should simply have retconned FR lore and pretended that FR magic always worked in the 4ed manner.
#2
lord_karsus
Jan 24, 2009 20:08:40 -There are a lot of things that I, personally, would have liked to see, that the designers didn't do. That said, I'd rather have an explanation than a retcon. Retcons are the worst possible things to happen.

-Concerning items that were created before the Spellplague, we have evidence in novels that take place after the Spellplague, and in the two Forgotten Realms 4e sourcebooks, that many of them still function as normal.
#3
iakhovas
Jan 24, 2009 20:39:59 Magic items from the previous era still work because their magic was stored when crafted (something like a battery). Spellbooks and spell scrolls, however, rely upon the Weave at the moment they are cast so these items would no longer function I'm afraid.
#4
winterstar
Jan 26, 2009 23:53:12 While the objects themselves might not have power, a reseacher with a keen wit might be able to use the basic findings in his own formula. And even if that isn't possible never underestimate the importance of sheer historic lore.

-Bek Tanir
#5
Diffan
Jan 28, 2009 15:27:46
Magic items from the previous era still work because their magic was stored when crafted (something like a battery). Spellbooks and spell scrolls, however, rely upon the Weave at the moment they are cast so these items would no longer function I'm afraid.

If this is the case, then the whole reasoning behind the lich in Rich Baker's Swordmage is pointless. I assumed he was after his spellbook to regain all his lost spells (aka rituals) and put them to good use later on. If they don't work, then what was the point?!
#6
iakhovas
Jan 28, 2009 16:12:39 The Infiernadex is much more than a spellbook, and I suspect we'll all know Aesperus' designs soon enough when the next two novels in the series are released.
If this is the case, then the whole reasoning behind the lich in Rich Baker's Swordmage is pointless. I assumed he was after his spellbook to regain all his lost spells (aka rituals) and put them to good use later on. If they don't work, then what was the point?!

#7
markustay63
Jan 28, 2009 16:25:40 The name itself implies a list of True Names of demonic entities, which to me is worth the bother, even if you need to build new rituals to summon them.

On topic - anything a DM wants to work will still work. You can simply say that the scroll or whatever dates from an earlier time (perhaps the Creator races dabbled in Raw Magic?), or could be attributed to a Mage who didn't bother with the Weave or the Shadow Weave - just because 99.99% of all casters did magic the same way, it doesn't mean that there couldn't have been lone practitioners (Wild mages?) developing 4e-esque magic ahead of its time, and bypassing all the weave/anti-Weave nonsense.
#8
blackmasque
Feb 02, 2009 19:30:36
If this is the case, then the whole reasoning behind the lich in Rich Baker's Swordmage is pointless. I assumed he was after his spellbook to regain all his lost spells (aka rituals) and put them to good use later on. If they don't work, then what was the point?!

Could be another case of the hand not knowingwhat the head is doing or things changing before/after writing/production/editing/etc.
#9
JudgeDookie
Feb 02, 2009 21:42:28
The Infiernadex is much more than a spellbook, and I suspect we'll all know Aesperus' designs soon enough when the next two novels in the series are released.

Wasn't the Infiernadex divine and not arcane?
#10
markustay63
Feb 04, 2009 11:10:29 Well, we know from the rules that divine magic is different from Arcane, and yet from the novels we know that Mystar was able to block a god's magic, and since she ONLY has dominion over Arcane Magic, it must mean that divine magic IS Arcane Magic .

So Gods act as a 'filter' of sorts - raw Arcane energy pours in, and they are able to deliver the 'Divine Energy' - really just 're-flavored' Arcane Energy' - to their priests.

Which I suppose doesn't help to answer this question at all.

On a lighter note - I just realized why they needed to get rid of Maztica!

Mazticans didn't use the Weave (or the Shadoweave) - Pluma Magic had its own, independent source.

That would make Maztican Practitioners of 'the art' more powerful then Faerûnian ones in the post-Spellplague world!

Now THAT would have been one hell of a fun campaign to run - The rise of the Mazticans, or Qotal Strikes back. :D
#11
JudgeDookie
Feb 04, 2009 21:40:52
Which I suppose doesn't help to answer this question at all.

Yeah.

Thanks, you boob.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kurzon Jan 24, 2009 18:06:17	A common plot theme in fantasy fiction like D&D is hunting for the powerful magic of dead civilizations (Atlantis, Netheril, etc). However, with the Spellplague, magic has been totally reworked; the difference is greater than the 2ed-3ed leap. Wouldn't this mean ancient spelltomes would be obsolete? They'd be listing formulae that no longer work. If you ask me, the writers should simply have retconned FR lore and pretended that FR magic always worked in the 4ed manner.
#2 lord_karsus Jan 24, 2009 20:08:40	-There are a lot of things that I, personally, would have liked to see, that the designers didn't do. That said, I'd rather have an explanation than a retcon. Retcons are the worst possible things to happen. -Concerning items that were created before the Spellplague, we have evidence in novels that take place after the Spellplague, and in the two Forgotten Realms 4e sourcebooks, that many of them still function as normal.
#3 iakhovas Jan 24, 2009 20:39:59	Magic items from the previous era still work because their magic was stored when crafted (something like a battery). Spellbooks and spell scrolls, however, rely upon the Weave at the moment they are cast so these items would no longer function I'm afraid.
#4 winterstar Jan 26, 2009 23:53:12	While the objects themselves might not have power, a reseacher with a keen wit might be able to use the basic findings in his own formula. And even if that isn't possible never underestimate the importance of sheer historic lore. -Bek Tanir
#5 Diffan Jan 28, 2009 15:27:46	Magic items from the previous era still work because their magic was stored when crafted (something like a battery). Spellbooks and spell scrolls, however, rely upon the Weave at the moment they are cast so these items would no longer function I'm afraid. If this is the case, then the whole reasoning behind the lich in Rich Baker's Swordmage is pointless. I assumed he was after his spellbook to regain all his lost spells (aka rituals) and put them to good use later on. If they don't work, then what was the point?!
#6 iakhovas Jan 28, 2009 16:12:39	The Infiernadex is much more than a spellbook, and I suspect we'll all know Aesperus' designs soon enough when the next two novels in the series are released. If this is the case, then the whole reasoning behind the lich in Rich Baker's Swordmage is pointless. I assumed he was after his spellbook to regain all his lost spells (aka rituals) and put them to good use later on. If they don't work, then what was the point?!
#7 markustay63 Jan 28, 2009 16:25:40	The name itself implies a list of True Names of demonic entities, which to me is worth the bother, even if you need to build new rituals to summon them. On topic - anything a DM wants to work will still work. You can simply say that the scroll or whatever dates from an earlier time (perhaps the Creator races dabbled in Raw Magic?), or could be attributed to a Mage who didn't bother with the Weave or the Shadow Weave - just because 99.99% of all casters did magic the same way, it doesn't mean that there couldn't have been lone practitioners (Wild mages?) developing 4e-esque magic ahead of its time, and bypassing all the weave/anti-Weave nonsense.
#8 blackmasque Feb 02, 2009 19:30:36	If this is the case, then the whole reasoning behind the lich in Rich Baker's Swordmage is pointless. I assumed he was after his spellbook to regain all his lost spells (aka rituals) and put them to good use later on. If they don't work, then what was the point?! Could be another case of the hand not knowingwhat the head is doing or things changing before/after writing/production/editing/etc.
#9 JudgeDookie Feb 02, 2009 21:42:28	The Infiernadex is much more than a spellbook, and I suspect we'll all know Aesperus' designs soon enough when the next two novels in the series are released. Wasn't the Infiernadex divine and not arcane?
#10 markustay63 Feb 04, 2009 11:10:29	Well, we know from the rules that divine magic is different from Arcane, and yet from the novels we know that Mystar was able to block a god's magic, and since she ONLY has dominion over Arcane Magic, it must mean that divine magic IS Arcane Magic . So Gods act as a 'filter' of sorts - raw Arcane energy pours in, and they are able to deliver the 'Divine Energy' - really just 're-flavored' Arcane Energy' - to their priests. Which I suppose doesn't help to answer this question at all. On a lighter note - I just realized why they needed to get rid of Maztica! Mazticans didn't use the Weave (or the Shadoweave) - Pluma Magic had its own, independent source. That would make Maztican Practitioners of 'the art' more powerful then Faerûnian ones in the post-Spellplague world! Now THAT would have been one hell of a fun campaign to run - The rise of the Mazticans, or Qotal Strikes back. :D
#11 JudgeDookie Feb 04, 2009 21:40:52	Which I suppose doesn't help to answer this question at all. Yeah. Thanks, you boob.