1) I run a campaign in the North specifical in the Region of Silverymoon...and I can't account for his actions. He is overshadowing the PC constantly.
2) I think his levels are too high for what they should be. I don't even want to think what his levels will be after a 100 years of fighting in the chaos of the Spell Plague.
3) I think it is very unrealistic that he has not attracted the attention of Eilisraee worshippers or vice versa...he really doesn't feel like part of the Realms.
4) I think it will be nicer to give that area back to gamers and maybe other authors...I mean the north could be recalled Drizzt's land.
5) I think his story is done...I am tired of the conflict between him and evil drow. He should die so we can tell other stories about them.
I'll give anybody a
if they can recognize what this?no
Why not it is the same reasons they are killing Mystra...and most of the 7 sisters?
-Then again, in order to make the 'new' Realms fully compatable for all of those people who are worried about their characters being overshadowed, ever NPC over Level 1 needs to be removed. After all, a Level 2 character can do things a Level 1 character can not.
However, Drizzt is basically the FR version of Wolverine: the meal ticket for the entire franchise. They won't ever kill him off (and keep him dead) unless people stop playing the Realms, and then only to make a buck or 2.
WTF John has 4E has reduced you to this? I am truly sorry. WotC is going to do what, they are going to do. Shakes head and walks away.;)I am calling for the death of Drizzt Do'Urden for a couple of reasons. And well unfortunaly WotC only seems to listen to radicles in this.
1) I run a campaign in the North specifical in the Region of Silverymoon...and I can't account for his actions. He is overshadowing the PC constantly.
2) I think his levels are too high for what they should be. I don't even want to think what his levels will be after a 100 years of fighting in the chaos of the Spell Plague.
3) I think it is very unrealistic that he has not attracted the attention of Eilisraee worshippers or vice versa...he really doesn't feel like part of the Realms.
4) I think it will be nicer to give that area back to gamers and maybe other authors...I mean the north could be recalled Drizzt's land.
5) I think his story is done...I am tired of the conflict between him and evil drow. He should die so we can tell other stories about them.
I'll give anybody a
#1 Uh, some NPC is always going to overshadow the PC's.
#2 Drizzt is a middling level ranger. Level 18CR if I remember correctly. Not a superpower fighter like Shurrupak The reaper or Adorabe. In fact, I can think of around 20 fighters/warriors/rogues/monks off the top of my head who could beat him. Not sure why everyone hates on him so much for being too powerful when there are far more powerful guys out there
#3 Drizzt found a goddess other than Ellistraee. Maybe if Alustriel introduced him to her sister Qilue you would feel better?
#4 The north is alustriel's land more than anybody
#5 I would guess we have seen the last of evil drow and him for awhile. Why tired of it? You must be tired of evil drow in general then because whenever they are around, they are fighting goodly drow(In just about every book) Since Salvatore sells more books than any other FR author, I doubt Drizzt is going anywhere. My friend works at chapters and checked the amount of books their USA distributer has sold for each author across the USA and Canada, and Salvatore sells more than any other 2 FR authors combined.
#1 Uh, some NPC is always going to overshadow the PC's.
This is the very point John was making.
The arguments he used are exactly the same ones that have been used to sideline/kill Mystra and her Chosen (all sidelined, some will be killed).
Heya,
This is the very point John was making.
The arguments he used are exactly the same ones that have been used to sideline/kill Mystra and her Chosen (all sidelined, some will be killed).
Maybe, but powerful NPC's only really affects those people who MUST have their badass uber "Im the best" characters who can't stand not being the most powerful.
Honestly. Anyone who feels dismayed because their character is not powerful compared to some NPC's who have books written about them is just pathetic. If they care so much about it, they can start an epic campaign and stack their characters. Its the dumbest thing to complain about. If you do not like Canon NPC's, then don't use them.
1) I run a campaign in the North specifical in the Region of Silverymoon...and I can't account for his actions. He is overshadowing the PC constantly.
Wait, if you don't want it, and you run the campaign, what's the problem? The North is pretty big, and he can only constantly overshadow the PCs if they're doing the same thing in the same place. Even then, if it's your campaign, you could simply have him do something else - it's not like he doesn't have reasons to travel from Calimshan to the Dales. Like most powers in the Realms (of which, to be honest, he's definitely not even in the B league), he has his own conections to mind and business to attend to. Heck, if an upstart group is taking care of some problems, he has even more reason to leave them be and concentrate on the rest of the things he has to do.
If you don't want any powerful NPC in the North, then you probably have to get rid of Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Citadel Adbar, and anything else with characters higher than level 10. I do not think this is the right idea, though. Just because there are higher-level NPCs, it doesn't mean the PCs should bump into them constantly. They are there if the characters are interested or if they really mess into the Big Boys/Girls' affairs, but other than that Alustriel and co have their own lives to live.
Personally, I'm not such a fan of the character and consider him far from the most interesting NPC in the Realms. Still, the hostility against him strikes me as rather odd - especially as 90% of the complaints about him are because of the many imitations of the character, for which neither he nor the author that created him has any blame.
Wait, if you don't want it, and you run the campaign, what's the problem? The North is pretty big, and he can only constantly overshadow the PCs if they're doing the same thing in the same place. Even then, if it's your campaign, you could simply have him do something else - it's not like he doesn't have reasons to travel from Calimshan to the Dales. Like most powers in the Realms (of which, to be honest, he's definitely not even in the B league), he has his own conections to mind and business to attend to. Heck, if an upstart group is taking care of some problems, he has even more reason to leave them be and concentrate on the rest of the things he has to do.
If you don't want any powerful NPC in the North, then you probably have to get rid of Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Citadel Adbar, and anything else with characters higher than level 10. I do not think this is the right idea, though. Just because there are higher-level NPCs, it doesn't mean the PCs should bump into them constantly. They are there if the characters are interested or if they really mess into the Big Boys/Girls' affairs, but other than that Alustriel and co have their own lives to live.
Personally, I'm not such a fan of the character and consider him far from the most interesting NPC in the Realms. Still, the hostility against him strikes me as rather odd - especially as 90% of the complaints about him are because of the many imitations of the character, for which neither he nor the author that created him has any blame.
I agree with you exactly except that Alustriel and Co. also have very filled lives(I would argue more so than anyother NPC out there if you meant the choosen). Also Drizzt is almost constantly partroling the area.
But as been pointed out these are the same reason they have done what they did to Mystra and the 7 Sisters.
Maybe, but powerful NPC's only really affects those people who MUST have their badass uber "Im the best" characters who can't stand not being the most powerful.
Honestly. Anyone who feels dismayed because their character is not powerful compared to some NPC's who have books written about them is just pathetic. If they care so much about it, they can start an epic campaign and stack their characters. Its the dumbest thing to complain about. If you do not like Canon NPC's, then don't use them.
And that is who exactly 4th edition is catered to.
What I thought it was a great proganda piece comparable with the stuff people post about the 7 Sisters and Mystra.
Besides if I scream enough I want to see if they cave in and kill him.
Lastly I am starting early with the whining to get changes in 5th edition that I want like what was done in 3.x to get 4th look like it does.;)
However, Drizzt is basically the FR version of Wolverine: the meal ticket for the entire franchise. They won't ever kill him off (and keep him dead) unless people stop playing the Realms, and then only to make a buck or 2.
Yeah I see alot of similarity between Wolverine and Drizzt. They have both got to popular for their own good as characters.
What I thought it was a great proganda piece comparable with the stuff people post about the 7 Sisters and Mystra.
Besides if I scream enough I want to see if they cave in and kill him.
Lastly I am starting early with the whining to get changes in 5th edition that I want like what was done in 3.x to get 4th look like it does.;)
So when did your 4e playtest material arrive again?
Dude, just wait and see for crying out loud.
OH NOES! TEH SKY IS FALLINGS!
So when did your 4e playtest material arrive again?
Dude, just wait and see for crying out loud.
OH NOES! TEH SKY IS FALLINGS!
um...my concern is not the mechanics of D&D. While I do have some serious misgivings about them I'll wait an see because they really haven't told us anything....Now that I hope you can understand that we can move on.
My concerns are what has already been revealed. Mystra and the Weave are gone...to me they are more important then some agnsty drow ranger with a over abundence of moral superoirty who is the best swords man in the Realms( he is the worst of the 'best of' trend). But that is besides the point.
Also when the fans control which characters live and die in any media it becomes a joke. Look at comics. I stopped reading them that day.
um...my concern is not the mechanics of D&D. While I do have some serious misgivings about them I'll wait an see because they really haven't told us anything....Now that I hope you can understand that we can move on.
My concerns are what has already been revealed. Mystra and the Weave are gone...to me they are more important then some agnsty drow ranger with a over abundence of moral superoirty who is the best swords man in the Realms( he is the worst of the 'best of' trend). But that is besides the point.
Also when the fans control which characters live and die in any media it becomes a joke. Look at comics. I stopped reading them that day.
Too many people have read the last couple pages of tGHotR and thrown their hands up saying "It's all over. I'll never buy this crap."
If you're not one of those people and you're willing to see what changes are coming (cause believe you me, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg here), then more power to you.
So forgive me for my tone, I'm just a bit tired of all the whining.
And I was a bit perturbed at first when they killed Robin. But then I was happy with the eventual direction they took the character of Batman.
Yeah I see alot of similarity between Wolverine and Drizzt. They have both got to popular for their own good as characters.
They shoulda never fleshed out Wolvies origins. Those mists were best left intact.
-A fan of Robin, I take it?
Not really, just don't like it when art takes second place to fan hype.
Too many people have read the last couple pages of tGHotR and thrown their hands up saying "It's all over. I'll never buy this crap."
If you're not one of those people and you're willing to see what changes are coming (cause believe you me, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg here), then more power to you.
So forgive me for my tone, I'm just a bit tired of all the whining.
And I was a bit perturbed at first when they killed Robin. But then I was happy with the eventual direction they took the character of Batman.
The thing is that I like my game which has been ongoing for years now. It just seems like the changes is just a big !@#$ you to me and anyone else that plays in ongoing games. Just with what they have revealed so far really means I am going not buy into 4th edition already...it really doesn't matter what they do now( except a step back from the rewrite they are planning) it is what they have already done. I mean this dates back to the ToT...the spellplague was just what broke the camels back.
Alsao I am curious did you think that the whining about Mystra and the 7 Sisters was valid before they did these changes? Because it seems to me that unfortunaly they only listen to whining.
They shoulda never fleshed out Wolvies origins. Those mists were best left intact.
I'll agree here 100% with you.
The thing is that I like my game which has been ongoing for years now. It just seems like the changes is just a big !@#$ you to me and anyone else that plays in ongoing games. Just with what they have revealed so far really means I am going not buy into 4th edition already...it really doesn't matter what they do now( except a step back from the rewrite they are planning) it is what they have already done. I mean this dates back to the ToT...the spellplague was just what broke the camels back.
Alsao I am curious did you think that the whining about Mystra and the 7 Sisters was valid before they did these changes? Because it seems to me that unfortunaly they only listen to whining.
There is truth in the saying "The squeaky wheel gets the oil"
Nobody is forcing you to advance your storyline to accomodate the new setting material that will be coming out in a year. My advice to you and anyone else that isn't too sure about the upcoming changes is, if you're having fun in your current campaign, then don't change... yet. Give you and your group enough time to fully learn what has changed, decide if you like the changes, then decide on whether or not to advance your storyline.
All I'm saying is (and I feel like I'm screaming it into the dark at times): We don't know the full scope of the changes yet, nor do we even have a clue whether or not they will be good.
Regardless of the changes that are being made, I've been a Realms fan for over a decade now, and I doubt that will change next August.
There is truth in the saying "The squeaky wheel gets the oil"
Right. Then I'll continue to SQUEAK... LOUDLY. PERSISTENTLY. Until they set things to rights.
To me, Mystra and the Weave are kind of core/central ideas of the Forgotten Realms. Without them, we have YAGFS. (Yet Another Generic Fantasy Setting.)
You don't like us whining. We get that. But you don't get to tell us what to do.
Nobody is forcing you to advance your storyline to accomodate the new setting material that will be coming out in a year. My advice to you and anyone else that isn't too sure about the upcoming changes is, if you're having fun in your current campaign, then don't change... yet. Give you and your group enough time to fully learn what has changed, decide if you like the changes, then decide on whether or not to advance your storyline.
That's right. You are absolutely correct. This is actually quite good advice, but it is also no reason to give up on letting WotC know of our displeasure at the changes we know of so far.
All I'm saying is (and I feel like I'm screaming it into the dark at times): We don't know the full scope of the changes yet, nor do we even have a clue whether or not they will be good.
Regardless of the changes that are being made, I've been a Realms fan for over a decade now, and I doubt that will change next August.
The death of Mystra is NOT a good thing. There is nothing they could possibly do to make me happy with the death of Mystra. It is one change too far, IMHO.
As for me, It simply will not happen in my Realms. Depending on what else happens, I may end up with absolutely no need to purchase another Realms product after I manage to get my hands on AGHotR... Which is bad, since I'm probably not the only one. I cannot see Wizards recovering from this, and I have grave doubts about the continued survival of the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting.
Wolverine never should have left Alpha Flight. He was so much cooler when he played hockey, eh?
Maybe they should rip the adamantine from Drizzt's bones? Or barring that, give him 6 different titles at once, including an all star line up with the Chosen of Mystra, because he soooo totally fits in there, right? Wait a second, what were we talking about again?
Rich Baker doesn't even like pie.
Heya,
To me, Mystra and the Weave are kind of core/central ideas of the Forgotten Realms. Without them, we have YAGFS. (Yet Another Generic Fantasy Setting.)
The death of Mystra is NOT a good thing. There is nothing they could possibly do to make me happy with the death of Mystra. It is one change too far, IMHO.
Agreed. Mystra and the Weave were what made magic in the Realms different. They've decided that needs to go away, but what I fear we will be left with is a magic system that looks and feels like every other magic system in any other generic D&D world. Arguments that "Mystra was too powerful" ring hollow to me, because it has been outlined time and again that while Mystra could, in theory, revoke the use of magic from a given god or mage, she did not or could not do so in practice due to a whole host of concerns. Thus, it remained more of a 'nuclear option' for the pantheon as a whole to stop anything insane from happening... ...like Shar and Cyric joining up to kill off another deity.
As for me, It simply will not happen in my Realms. Depending on what else happens, I may end up with absolutely no need to purchase another Realms product after I manage to get my hands on AGHotR... Which is bad, since I'm probably not the only one. I cannot see Wizards recovering from this, and I have grave doubts about the continued survival of the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting.
I'll purchase 4th Edition Core books, though I remain undecided on any 4th edition Realms stuff (leaning towards not doing so). However, I doubt that any tanking of the Realms setting would truly harm Wizards as a whole. The company just has too many diversified product lines. If one of them fails, or simply does not do as well as they would like, it will be a setback, but only for that product line. At worst, they might simply decide to discontinue publishing that line.
If I was that emo I would have killed myself a long time ago.
If ya don't like a character, why even bother including him in your campaign? FR's novels are canon. Simply don't read Salvatores novels, and *poof*! Drizzt is gone.
So why can't the people just not read the novels and ignore the 7 Sisters?
I JUST HAD AN ORGASIM OF THE THOUGHT OF DESTROYING HIM. ANYTHING I CAN DO TO HELP WITH HIS DEATH IN ANYWAY, PLEASE PM ME
FRIEND, FORGIVE ME FOR NOT BEING ON THE FORUM SOONER TO HELP
THUS BEGIANS THE AGE OF GLORY
The way Drizzt's death is proposed by trying to justify the wish for his death implies that we need to have a reason to ask for his death and I have to strongly disagree with that. :D Our whimsy is reason enough. :D
-Um...You're missing John's point.
Actualy he does more to prove my point.
John, I think people are reading your post and getting the wrong idea.
Folks, this post is not "lets get Drizzt removed from the setting"... This post is about the reasons why Mystra got killed and her Chosen got killed/sidelined - it's simple enough to apply the same logic to Drizzt... But he's still alive and kicking.
In fact, you could take the reasons they killed Mystra and are killing some/sidelining most of the Chosen and apply them to any novel character. (The only Chosen who is a confirmed survivor is Elminster, by the way.)
No matter what they do, [b]novel characters will always be perceived to overshadow PCs!!![/b]
(Perception is everything. Mystra and her Chosen never overshadowed PCs when I ran games in the Realms, and were I to start running Realms games again today, her Chosen still wouldn't overshadow the PCs. How come this works for me and some others, but not for the "majority"?)
This reboot is not for us. This reboot is for novel writers. I'm beginning to become quite convinced of this. They could have taken a less destructive route towards bringing the Realms into 4th Edition, and yet they chose the route that novel writers will get the most mileage out of.
1) Re: Robin, Did they kill him again? Sweet criminy! How many times does that kid have to die?
2) If you don't like major NPCs, why can't you just never have your PCs encounter them or otherwise deal with them? If it's your campaign, you decide which way it goes. I play my campaign with the major NPCs, and while they may do whatever they want to in the novels, it doesn't mean squat if I decided that they did something else in my game. If they come up with some piece of supplemental work that requires differently that I absolutely HAVE to have, I use that #1 piece of equipment necessary for playing this game - my imagination. Write a few adventures that bring things into line and all is well.
If ya don't like a character, why even bother including him in your campaign? FR's novels are canon. Simply don't read Salvatores novels, and *poof*! Drizzt is gone.
Problem is my players read those damn novels. I got tired of them complaining this and that I did was not in the books or against official WoTC/TSR canon. Heard about the Drizzt fiasco for months.
Two questions:
1) Re: Robin, Did they kill him again? Sweet criminy! How many times does that kid have to die?
As many times as it takes to keep Batman's real secret safe! "So Robin, ever seen a grown man naked in the shower?"
Heya,
John, I think people are reading your post and getting the wrong idea.
Folks, this post is not "lets get Drizzt removed from the setting"... This post is about the reasons why Mystra got killed and her Chosen got killed/sidelined - it's simple enough to apply the same logic to Drizzt... But he's still alive and kicking.
In fact, you could take the reasons they killed Mystra and are killing some/sidelining most of the Chosen and apply them to any novel character. (The only Chosen who is a confirmed survivor is Elminster, by the way.)
No matter what they do, [b]novel characters will always be perceived to overshadow PCs!!![/b]
(Perception is everything. Mystra and her Chosen never overshadowed PCs when I ran games in the Realms, and were I to start running Realms games again today, her Chosen still wouldn't overshadow the PCs. How come this works for me and some others, but not for the "majority"?)
This reboot is not for us. This reboot is for novel writers. I'm beginning to become quite convinced of this. They could have taken a less destructive route towards bringing the Realms into 4th Edition, and yet they chose the route that novel writers will get the most mileage out of.
She is right...you could put their reasoning on getting rid of any character or god...
1)We should get rid of Cyric...why his dominion over illusion magic will keep it from being used against his followers.
2)We should get rid of Tempus because we should roll dice to determine which side he is on of any given battle...
3)Chauntea is too powerful because she can kill the crops of any nation she doesn't like...
4) We should get rid of Selune because she can control the tides with her moon powers.
5)We should get rid of Mask because he makes it imposible to steal anything..
6)We should get rid of Bane because he turns every goverment into a Tyrrny sooner or later...especialy since there aren't other gods representive of other goverments.
7) Etc.
Sure these are all about as true as Mystra can cut off the use of the Weave to anyone. But this the reason she was removed.
Also there was a Buy American theme but I think that got lost:D
Problem is my players read those damn novels. I got tired of them complaining this and that I did was not in the books or against official WoTC/TSR canon. Heard about the Drizzt fiasco for months.
I can feel your pain. For most part people I play with can ignore this stuff...at worst they want their PCs to replace those NPCs, usualy because they think the NPCs did it dumb.
But I once had a Drizzt fanboy in my group who kept trying to find Drizzt in my game...metagaming the hell out of it by the way. Eventualy I told Drizzt had died in my game...eaten by The Cave Fisher that his panther saved him from.
I think that says a lot more about to who they are trying to cater with the erasure of accumulated lore of the Realms or it denotes a serious lack of understanding plain English. Either way, they may both be related.
Anyway, to get back on topic, I fully support the petition and I think we should not limit ourselves to that alone. We need to take it further.
Please support the following:
1. Too many gods. Please kill them all off leaving a maximum of one or none.
2. Too many people around generally. Are cities, nations and all those things really needed? Just publish a map and encounter charts with things to attack. It is just too complicated as it is now and it is stagnating the setting.
3. Please make the gangsta mafia man with laser pistols a core class. There is a lot of precedent in lore for that. We have criminal organisations and ray type magic. Surely it is an excellent opportunity to introduce such a popular class into the new Realms!
I think that sums it up.
I cannot however shake this deja-vue feeling I am having with the 4e realms. Where have I seen it before?
I mean an attempt to wipe out all pre-existing lore as relevant to current gameplay. I am dead certain I have seen it before.
Does Arcane -Age ring any bells? And how succesful was it?
The majority of people responding to this thread have completely missed the point even after it was further explained three times by both the original and subsequent posters.
You are better at it than I was
Though it might just prove how many people just read the first post...
No matter what they do, [b]novel characters will always be perceived to overshadow PCs!!![/b]
Exactly!! No matter how whiny or angsty my drow ranger is, he will never be as whiny or angsty as Drizzt because Salvatore gets to write books about him.
Rich Baker secretly hates Forgotten Realms, and has been trying to replace it with the Magical World of Ponies for years now.
Please support the following:
1. Too many gods. Please kill them all off leaving a maximum of one or none.
2. Too many people around generally. Are cities, nations and all those things really needed? Just publish a map and encounter charts with things to attack. It is just too complicated as it is now and it is stagnating the setting.
3. Please make the gangsta mafia man with laser pistols a core class. There is a lot of precedent in lore for that. We have criminal organisations and ray type magic. Surely it is an excellent opportunity to introduce such a popular class into the new Realms!
Today is your lucky day. The spellplague already takes care of numbers one and two. After planes get thrown around a bit, Cyric breaks out of prison, and with the help of Shar, kills the rest of the deities. Then, they merge together with a resounding cry of "When our powers combine, we form SHARIC!!!!" Left with one supreme deity of Shadows and petty irritating gamers, the Realms is finally streamlined enough for 4ed. Back on the surface, the spellplague has left small pockets of sentience in a great sea of Orcish empires. This is of course to maximize the new rules that allow you to fight 10,000 orcs as a decent encounter at level one in 4ed (just like Drizzt!:D )
However, I can't side with you on number 3. That one has nothing to do with Forgotten Realms and seems to discount all the lore that has come before. I mean really, if you are going to add Gangstas as a class, then it just won't be the same Realms I know and love anymore. You might as well just change the name then.
Rich Baker has no soul.
Exactly!! No matter how whiny or angsty my drow ranger is, he will never be as whiny or angsty as Drizzt because Salvatore gets to write books about him.
Rich Baker secretly hates Forgotten Realms, and has been trying to replace it with the Magical World of Ponies for years now.
You know who wants to kill Drizzt the most by the way?
Wulfgar.
In the first book Wulfgar was the main protagonist...after thgat he got reduced to sidekick status...
The while Wulfgar was being tortured in heck Drizzt stole his girlfriend....
While this murder mystery wouldn't be that hard to solve...mmm head bashed in my a massive thrown object...
Therefore, realistically it would seem more than expected for Drizzt Do'Urden to have been tracked down, slain, and his soul dismembered in ritual sacrifice by agents of Lolth a long time ago.
However, the "misery loves company" approach is not the ideal here. None of the NPCs in the realms should be summarily removed in novels, adventure introductions, or forced timeline advancement--replete with logic defying circumstances--just to appease flippant denouncers of the setting at the expense of a stalwart fanbase that likes them.
Moreso, if the goal of any forced character demise is to turn FR-haters into potential customers and to take the spotlight off NPCs, then it certainly makes one wonder why the only personages who are guaranteed to survive into 4E are ironically the two who have been the most excessively featured as primary novel protagonists, whom are consistently portrayed as virtually un-killable, and whom have the most vitriol directed their way (and by extension at the setting itself) by said FR-haters.
As of 15 Nightal 1374 DR we dwell in a gaming world where a woman whom was the first of the Seven Sisters and simultaneously the last of mortals to wield the scepter of Savras, can be outmatched in knowledge, prescience, and divinely-imparted insight by a generic 13th level "sample NPC" cleric of Shar.
Therefore, realistically it would seem more than expected for Drizzt Do'Urden to have been tracked down, slain, and his soul dismembered in ritual sacrifice by agents of Lolth a long time ago.
However, the "misery loves company" approach is not the ideal here. None of the NPCs in the realms should be summarily removed in novels, adventure introductions, or forced timeline advancement--replete with logic defying circumstances--just to appease flippant denouncers of the setting at the expense of a stalwart fanbase that likes them.
Moreso, if the goal of any forced character demise is to turn FR-haters into potential customers and to take the spotlight off NPCs, then it certainly makes one wonder why the only personages who are guaranteed to survive into 4E are ironically the two who have been the most excessively featured as primary novel protagonists, whom are consistently portrayed as virtually un-killable, and whom have the most vitriol directed their way (and by extension at the setting itself) by said FR-haters.
I agree with you 100% Please just think of the above as modest proposal if you will...
Truely, this place have fallen - it catters much to this side. Candlekeep would be better.
Originally Posted by My Husband
Nothing kills my love of gaming faster than other gamers.
And I'd add - the worst of fandoms are the 'REAL' fans.
Richard Baker and their pals should have extanded vacations after the days the books will be out, paid by the communauty.
(I am not THAT pro, but the Anti 4th Edition Jyhad is annoying me way too much.)
Smell like grognard spirit. Hate the changes, insult the makers and the pro-crowd's intelligence, dignity and good will.
Truely, this place have fallen - it catters much to this side. Candlekeep would be better.
And I'd add - the worst of fandoms are the 'REAL' fans.
Richard Baker and their pals should have extanded vacations after the days the books will be out, paid by the communauty.
(I am not THAT pro, but the Anti 4th Edition Jyhad is annoying me way too much.)
Actualy I haven't done anything of the sort...was just showing the 'creators' are being very inconsistent with their reasons for the changes...
Or are you just a grognard because you are defending the new Realms....
I am calling for the death of Drizzt Do'Urden for a couple of reasons. And well unfortunaly WotC only seems to listen to radicles in this.
1) I run a campaign in the North specifical in the Region of Silverymoon...and I can't account for his actions. He is overshadowing the PC constantly.
2) I think his levels are too high for what they should be. I don't even want to think what his levels will be after a 100 years of fighting in the chaos of the Spell Plague.
3) I think it is very unrealistic that he has not attracted the attention of Eilisraee worshippers or vice versa...he really doesn't feel like part of the Realms.
4) I think it will be nicer to give that area back to gamers and maybe other authors...I mean the north could be recalled Drizzt's land.
5) I think his story is done...I am tired of the conflict between him and evil drow. He should die so we can tell other stories about them.
I'll give anybody a
Is this the same John as a few weeks ago or someone on his account? Is it is the same guy, your losing it maybe?
Most of your recent posts are getting a little more childish like your buds MS. Just saying. I tried to tone down some of my "stop yer whining" responses and now your acting all nutty. Strange.*EDIT* I just now read the whole post. I figured you were just being sarcastic. Anyway you sure are in a bad mood eh? Your taking this way too seriously. So much negativity. Just deal. Really, it is that easy. At least for a rational human. Just breathe and step relax. You cannot change any of the FR designers minds and making yet ANOTHER anti-4eFR post just makes ya look rather childish. You and all you friends can come back and flame me for this comment but I do not care. Heh, you guys will still be on these boards complaining for 3 years after 4E probably. I hope that's not the case though, but it usually is with Net-drama folks. I am just trying to make you realize how silly some of your are acting.
But wizards need him for the money business. You fail to see the number of noobs who love him that much.
Perhaps that's the problem here....noobs come out to more than 50% in the business profit. They're a necessity for prosperity. No matter how much u hate them, u can never ignore them.
Face it Drizzt is staying....Even tho I don't like the guy...Don't get me wrong I hate his guts!@!@
But wizards need him for the money business. You fail to see the number of noobs who love him that much.
Perhaps that's the problem here....noobs come out to more than 50% in the business profit. They're a necessity for prosperity. No matter how much u hate them, u can never ignore them.
I agree. I think that is why the changes coming down the road. I think it has to do with WOTCs marketing research. If they did some resaerch and found that killing off deities and NPCs would tick off the majority of consumers, then they would cease and desist. At least I think this is how it would work, but I have no real knowledge of how WOTC runs things.
Smell like grognard spirit. Hate the changes, insult the makers and the pro-crowd's intelligence, dignity and good will.
Truely, this place have fallen - it catters much to this side. Candlekeep would be better.
And I'd add - the worst of fandoms are the 'REAL' fans.
Richard Baker and their pals should have extanded vacations after the days the books will be out, paid by the communauty.
(I am not THAT pro, but the Anti 4th Edition Jyhad is annoying me way too much.)
-Geek, do you even understand the point that John is trying to make? He's not being pro-4e, or anti-4e. He is just demonstrating the inconsistencies of the 'designers' in determining what NPCs "upset and ruin" campaigns.
Heya,
This is the very point John was making.
The arguments he used are exactly the same ones that have been used to sideline/kill Mystra and her Chosen (all sidelined, some will be killed).
Why not just go ahead and DON'T include him in your campaign. Just say he's off frollicking with Cattie Brie in some field or other...;)
Is this the same John as a few weeks ago or someone on his account? Is it is the same guy, your losing it maybe?
*EDIT* I just now read the whole post. I figured you were just being sarcastic. Anyway you sure are in a bad mood eh? Your taking this way too seriously. So much negativity. Just deal. Really, it is that easy. At least for a rational human. Just breathe and step relax. You cannot change any of the FR designers minds and making yet ANOTHER anti-4eFR post just makes ya look rather childish. You and all you friends can come back and flame me for this comment but I do not care. Heh, you guys will still be on these boards complaining for 3 years after 4E probably. I hope that's not the case though, but it usually is with Net-drama folks. I am just trying to make you realize how silly some of your are acting.
Sorry had a bad weak...and I thought of this as humor. You are right of course. The designers can't be made fun of I guess. Also A Modest Proposal as Net-Drama? Though I guess I don't have Mr. Swift's writing ability. :D
I figure it was maybe time to laugh at the changes instead of getting all serious.
Also before these changes was announced I actualy tried to help people with their problems on these boards, like the 7 Sisters, or Mystra and the Weave and the high NPCs...also on mechanical issues. Also asked some questions and usualy got a good answear. If I debated anybody I always tried to do so politely(till they didn't return it).
In three years will I be still on these boards? That is a tough call. I might lurk around to give people advice from time to time...keep in contact with people I like...but that is all I plan on doing. I believe it is a outside chance that still posting might salvage something...after it is out I'll give up though. I am sorry that you think it is silly to believe that the 20+ investment I have in Realms isn't worth a couple of months of posting.
Though as I do respect you I'll remain quiet...no more jokes. ( no one gets my sense of humor, though admittly it might not translate to the internet well)
John is trying to show an odd inconsistancy in WOTCs plans on killing NPCs. The thing is Drizzt is a cash cow and will never die unless he stops being profitable. So it makes me guess that the novels do better than the RPG stuff so the novels will always be canon. Why are some high lvl NPCs getting the axe then? I can only guess this is due to some Market research that they did. I could be wrong about the marketing stuff though.
Personaly I think they seriously messed up their market reasearch....anyone knows the history of the first phone survey? I think we have that class of a blunder...though I might be wrong.
But I have to say from a comparison standpoint its not really close.
Drizzt is a high level ranger...
as opposed to:
The goddess of magic and her chosen
The two groups levels of power are not even close.
I mean, just as an example, the Simbul is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, that keeps Thay out of Algarond and/or Rashemen if I recall correctly.
Drizzt couldn't even stop Obould, a meager orc king when compared to the zulkirs of Thay, from invading the Silver Marches, let alone a nation of powerful wizards. I mean, if Alustriel by herself had stepped in the fight against Obould, just herself alone, she more than likely would have turned the tide of that fight against the orcs.
I understand what you're attempting to do but I don't think the comparison is anywhere near equal.
Good luck with your campaign...
But I have to say from a comparison standpoint its not really close.
Drizzt is a high level ranger...
as opposed to:
The goddess of magic and her chosen
The two groups levels of power are not even close.
I mean, just as an example, the Simbul is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, that keeps Thay out of Algarond and/or Rashemen if I recall correctly.
Drizzt couldn't even stop Obould, a meager orc king when compared to the zulkirs of Thay, from invading the Silver Marches, let alone a nation of powerful wizards. I mean, if Alustriel by herself had stepped in the fight against Obould, just herself alone, she more than likely would have turned the tide of that fight against the orcs.
I understand what you're attempting to do but I don't think the comparison is anywhere near equal.
Um...the Simbul is not keeping Thay out of Rashemen that is the witchs(though I am guessing they'll be slaughtered now) jobs.
The Simbul keeps Thay back because of her reputation of crazieness and utter disregard for her own life. She could be half her level and that will keep at bay, but they are constantly trying ways to remove her...it used be a huge intrigue part of the world...now it is just hack n' slash. Also you can look at her as a reason why Thay just didn't take over Algarond to give the PCs a base of operations so they can take down Thay. Also Mystra I think forbid them from taking out Thay...though I might be confusing something else.
Also again can you name one time when Mystra did anything that wasn't in her job desciption? I have asked this many time before? Have yet recieved a answear.
As to the other sisters I am tired of typing the thousands of way they put the PCs into the spotlight all them are no longer active adventures.
As to Drizzt he is still very much active in the North...much more so as a adventurer then Alustriel is.
johnkretzer must be stopped!!!;) :P
WotC boards must be stopped ;) :P :D
Um...the Simbul is not keeping Thay out of Rashemen that is the witchs(though I am guessing they'll be slaughtered now) jobs.
The Simbul keeps Thay back because of her reputation of crazieness and utter disregard for her own life. She could be half her level and that will keep at bay, but they are constantly trying ways to remove her...it used be a huge intrigue part of the world...now it is just hack n' slash. Also you can look at her as a reason why Thay just didn't take over Algarond to give the PCs a base of operations so they can take down Thay. Also Mystra I think forbid them from taking out Thay...though I might be confusing something else.
Also again can you name one time when Mystra did anything that wasn't in her job desciption? I have asked this many time before? Have yet recieved a answear.
As to the other sisters I am tired of typing the thousands of way they put the PCs into the spotlight all them are no longer active adventures.
As to Drizzt he is still very much active in the North...much more so as a adventurer then Alustriel is.
Doesn't really matter if they're active adventurers or not did they get involved with the Return of the Archwizards? Did they leave elminster in hell to fend for himself? Would they get involved if they were needed?... they still exist and still work on a parallel with what the PCs do and they have considerably more power than Drizzt does. Drizzt can't jump from one end of Faerun to the other like the chosen can, drop a few epic spells or whatever and then teleport out. Drizzt also doesn't have interest in say, Thay invading Algarond or Rashemen, his interests are localized in one area, while the chosen have interests all over Faerun.
And as far as typing a thousand ways... why bother? Do away with the problem, as some would see it, and then there won't be a need to come up with ways for the party to take the spotlight from the omniscient and ultra-powerful npcs.
As far as mystra's job description... what does that have to do with how powerful she and her chosen are compared to a drow ranger?
Again as I said, your comparison is not equal by any stretch.
Personally I don't care one way or the other if Drizzt is killed off but I like him far more than I've ever cared for mystra or her chosen.
Why not just go ahead and DON'T include him in your campaign. Just say he's off frollicking with Cattie Brie in some field or other...;)
What is this? The "Missing the Point" thread or something?
FWIW, Drizzt has never made an appearance in any campaign I've run or played in. Why? Because most of the campaigns I've run/played in happen in the Dalelands, Cormyr, Waterdeep, Neverwinter, or the Western Heartlands - or traveling between all those places. He hasn't appeared simply because he can't be everywhere. My PCs and my players have never had reason to cross his path, so... they simply don't. It isn't that I don't like Drizzt (well I don't really like him, but so what?), it's that he has simply never been a concideration for me.
The point I think John has been trying to make, and I've been trying to illuminate, is that these NPCs aren't a problem. The problem is with perception, and with people getting the wrong idea, and jumping onto bandwagons. I wouldn't remove Drizzt just because he needs to be taken into consideration if I want to run a game in the North. So, yes, I'm well aware that I can just not include him in my campaigns. (Having said that, if by chance my campaign happened to move north of Silverymoon, I probably would take Drizzt into consideration, and if the PCs are doing big things, there's every possibility they'd run into him... Me disliking him wouldn't effect that at all, and I would run him as effectively as I could, play him as well as I could... because that's the point of Role Playing... Not to take petty vengeance out on a character I don't like, but to create a real, living, vibrant world for my players to interact with.)
However, my dislike of the fellow is no reason for me to have him killed or removed from the setting... Because he is a part of the setting, and the setting would be diminished by his absence. Just as the Realms are sorely diminished by the absence of the Chosen of Mystra and Mystra herself.
Perception, by the way, is not helped by novels which star these characters over and over again. I'd sincerely like to see WotC either make novels about smaller characters and smaller events (more one offs, less multiple volume series), or just not publish novels at all (I'd prefer the former to the latter, as the latter would cause some amount of stagnation to enter the setting).
And as far as typing a thousand ways... why bother? Do away with the problem, as some would see it, and then there won't be a need to come up with ways for the party to take the spotlight from the omniscient and ultra-powerful npcs.
If that's the case, why not kill off ALL NPCs? When DMing, a DM needs to take into account every single NPC of importance in the area the PCs are in...
PCs solving a murder mystery of a prominent citizen in a city like Elversult? Need to come up with reasons why Vaerana Hawklyn, who is head of the city guard, isn't on the scene herself.
PCs tackling a problem that puts all of Cormyr at risk? Where are the War Wizards and the Purple Dragon Knights? What are Caladnei and Laspeera doing?
PCs trying to overthrow a Zulkier in Thay? Where's the Zulkier? What about his protections? His minions? His enemies? (Yeah, I know I probably spelled Zulkier wrong.)
Taking NPCs (powerful or not) into consideration is part of the DMs job. Removing the Chosen from the setting doesn't solve the problem at all... It just diminishes the setting.
Heya,
If that's the case, why not kill off ALL NPCs? When DMing, a DM needs to take into account every single NPC of importance in the area the PCs are in...
PCs solving a murder mystery of a prominent citizen in a city like Elversult? Need to come up with reasons why Vaerana Hawklyn, who is head of the city guard, isn't on the scene herself.
PCs tackling a problem that puts all of Cormyr at risk? Where are the War Wizards and the Purple Dragon Knights? What are Caladnei and Laspeera doing?
PCs trying to overthrow a Zulkier in Thay? Where's the Zulkier? What about his protections? His minions? His enemies? (Yeah, I know I probably spelled Zulkier wrong.)
Taking NPCs (powerful or not) into consideration is part of the DMs job. Removing the Chosen from the setting doesn't solve the problem at all... It just diminishes the setting.
First of all this was about a weak comparison in the original post. Drizzt has nowhere near the level of power that the chosen have let alone mystra.
But as long as we're going this route... Not all NPCs are chosen of the most powerful deity in Faerun.
You, and others, seem unable to comprehend that its not powerful NPCs that are the problem.
Its a group of powerful npcs that are all chosen of the most powerful deity in the world and will group together and team up to handle problems like they have in the past. What other heroic group has as much power as this group of NPCs?
I can see how that is an issue for some. Not saying I agree with it or that I don't, just claiming I can see it being a problem. And personally, I'm fine with the changes they're making and look forward to reading more.
If that's the case, why not kill off ALL NPCs? When DMing, a DM needs to take into account every single NPC of importance in the area the PCs are in...
-That's what I facesciously said in another thread. Since NPCs over the PCs level can do things the PCs cannot, and 'overshadow' them, any NPC over Level 1 should be removed.
I'm interested to see the changes brought about by the spell plague and how this effects magic, I'm hoping along the lines of wild magic or whatever but something a little more innovative. I don't believe a god of magic is needed and it is precisely that fact that will make F.R more unique.
I'm interested in what to make of a 'mad max' style forgotten realms, if you look back the FR campaign setting has been in a state of flux and motion since its inception; this is built into the mythos of the setting; contemporarily we have ToT, the shadovar, the rising tide and rage of dragons and in its back history story events such as the fall of netheril and the sundering, to name but two of reams and reams of significant events. Look again though and it makes one question, these events commonly labelled R.S.E, are really not that realms shaking, in fact pretty much more 'flash in the pans', even transition between 1st and 2nd edition where more changes were made than usual things were soon 'business as usual'. 3rd edition even less, the most noteworthy being the shadow weave and having actual game rules attached, so Tilverton got wiped from the face of the map, Cormyr fought a war against an orc horde and Azoun was killed fighting a dragon, the last event was more related to a novel than changes to a campaign setting!!!! The more important events that heralded an edition change were only tangentially associated with FR (Vecna and the discovery (or would that be creation?) the demi plane of shadow was more than a demi plane); being that the model of the great wheel / tree is merely a conceptual image of how the multiverse is arranged. So this time...Credit due to the designers for actually putting money where the mouth is for once. So it's not Greenwood any more so than Elminster is the sum total of FR as conceived by Ed. These things being determined when he sold the rights to TSR. So it comes down to that in the end if your playing E.Greenwood's campaign then your playing E.Greenwood's campaign setting and need to be over at candle keep 'sageing' with the So sayeth Ed articles, however if you're playing a forgotten realms campaign then I caution patience wait until the new edition realms is released and make the decision then, you never know you just might like it.
In summary then currently I'm reserving the judgment until I can take a look for myself and mildly encouraged by this new direction, conversely though not so enthused by the overall abomination that is 4th edition.
First of all this was about a weak comparison in the original post. Drizzt has nowhere near the level of power that the chosen have let alone mystra.
Drizzt may not be personally powerful (which is difficult to believe given everything he's said to have achieved on his own in his life time), but he has powerful friends in high places.
But as long as we're going this route... Not all NPCs are chosen of the most powerful deity in Faerun.
You, and others, seem unable to comprehend that its not powerful NPCs that are the problem.
There are some incredibly powerful NPCs who aren't Chosen of Mystra. Yet no one seems to have problems with them...
Its a group of powerful npcs that are all chosen of the most powerful deity in the world and will group together and team up to handle problems like they have in the past. What other heroic group has as much power as this group of NPCs?
The Chosen of Mystra rarely team up, and when they do, it's usually only in the face of major RSEs (which novel authors seem very fond of writing about). They like to work from behind the scenes, not in front. They operate through intermediaries, sometimes this is the PCs, other times the intermediaries are just a group (and sometimes more than one group - ie: Storm, Laeral, and Elminster might all try to manipulate the same group of PCs for different reasons) who manipulates the PCs... Which isn't to say that the PCs are their puppets, because other groups and factions might also try and manipulate the PCs, either directly or through intermediaries. In the end, though, the PCs are free to not allow themselves to be manipulated - after all, they'll also have their own goals which might be at odds with other power groups in the Realms.
The Chosen are not always working towards the same goals, as well. See what happened when Khelben made a deal with Fzoul... The Harpers split. It is entirely possible that the Moonstars and the Harpers are in conflict in a variety of places... Which means that it is quite possible that Storm might come into conflict with, say, Laeral - sisters or not.
I can see how that is an issue for some. Not saying I agree with it or that I don't, just claiming I can see it being a problem. And personally, I'm fine with the changes they're making and look forward to reading more.
As you can probably guess, I hate them. You can also probably guess that I'm a fan of Mystra and her Chosen.
I have never ever advocated for the removal of Shar or Cyric or any other person's pet deities. I have never ever advocated the removal of certain elements within the Realms that I don't like (I removed the Shadow Weave from my own Realms, but I would never try to dictate to someone else to remove it from theirs - though I'm sure I did offer a protest when it was first introduced). I am happy for people with stories to tell about to tell them. But in removing Mystra from the setting, unless I set my campaign before her death, I've been denied the ability to continue telling stories about my pet deity. (And it's not just Mystra that's been touched, my two other favorites - Tymora has been made to look like a submissive fool who isn't in charge of her own fate, and Eilistraee looks like she's not going to be the deity I first "fell in love with" anymore... Can you see why I'm so sore about this now?)
I realize this is probably very harsh, but why should my campaign suffer just because some people out there have a very poor grip on the Realms, and have no idea how to run politics and intrigue in the background, or how to handle very busy but very powerful NPCs?
And as far as typing a thousand ways... why bother? Do away with the problem, as some would see it, and then there won't be a need to come up with ways for the party to take the spotlight from the omniscient and ultra-powerful npcs..
You completely missed my point. I don't see them as a problem. I see them as a strength. Here is what I have typed.
(Cut & Paste is great)
I have usualy find there busy with running organizations(or are helping run them like the Harpers(Elminster, Storm, Laeral, Dove[Who by the way is also raising a family])..mmm sound like adventure hooks for the PCs
Or a running goverments(Khelben[when he was alive], Alustriel, Symbul) Mostly in dangerous areas in which guess what they need the PCs help to help them.
One is a ghost bond to a area(Sylune) I don't see her stealing the spotlight.
One is the High Preistess and Choosen of another deity(Quile) who wow guess what again need adventures to help them.
Sounds like to me they are more likely to put the PCs in the spotlight...then to steal it. Of course in the hands of a terrible DM or writer that is what they do.
And then there is Drizzt who is just out there as the great protector of the North. He does nothing but do the 'PCs' job
As far as mystra's job description... what does that have to do with how powerful she and her chosen are compared to a drow ranger?
Um....yeah sure she has power like Tempus who chooses who win every fight, or Chauntea who can just kill the crops of any People she wants, etc.
Again as I said, your comparison is not equal by any stretch.
Really has Drizzt ever lost a fight?(I can think of only once and he was really caught by surprise), have Drizzt ever been wrong? Has he ever been moraly challenged?
The Choosen have lost...and been fooled...you brought up the return of the Arch wizards...what happened at the end? Heck one is a lower level Ranger and one is a bard for pete sakes.
Personaly just by the novels Drizzt is a far more powerful character...he even had special rules in 1st and 2nd edition that no player could ever hope to get. But the choosen status technicaly any PC can get.(if the DM is willing to run that high level of a game)
Personally I don't care one way or the other if Drizzt is killed off but I like him far more than I've ever cared for mystra or her chosen.
They are more powerful Clerics, Bards(I think there is one or two more powerful then Storm), Rangers, and Wizards in the Realms then the choosen both in the novels and in stat. They are also been beaten by lower level NPCs.
Drizzt is the best fighter in the Realms...he has routinly beaten even characters who has more levels then he does in the books. And I can't really think of any mellee who is better then he is stat wise in 3.x...
You are welcome to your personal opinion but you have yet pointed out a time that the 7 sisters(and the rest of the crew) as gathered to deal with something that wasn't a direct threat to the Weave....would you critize Chantea sending her choosen to prevent the threat of all soil to the Realms? Etc.
Also like I said I have no real problem with Drizzt(though he has become what Salvatore said he had hoped he wouldn't), heck in about his fist 9-10 books I liked the character very much. He does add something to the Realms...though not as much as The Weave, Mystra, or the 7 Sisters.
Really has Drizzt ever lost a fight?(I can think of only once and he was really caught by surprise), have Drizzt ever been wrong? Has he ever been moraly challenged?
-He once felt bad about killing a rogue Goblin, because it was like him- an 'outcast', feared for what it's race was, rather than what it was.
-He once felt bad about killing a rogue Goblin, because it was like him- an 'outcast', feared for what it's race was, rather than what it was.
Yeah but didn't the goblin asked him to do it? To end his suffering.
In the OrcKing it states that Drizzt has regretted fighting Obould. That what he thought of Obould before was wrong. That Obould was a great person who could establish the peace between the two races (dwarf and orcs). In other words...he was too shallow in his perspective for Obould at Two Swords. He didn't even believe that Obould was trying to establish a treaty when the orc king spared the dwarf hostage's (what's his name) life, all he thought was annoying and killing the guy. Jeez, have pity for an orc. They've been fodder for thousands of years. Now is the only chance they could shine, then some poor misguided drow hero comes out to kill them.
WotC boards must be stopped ;) :P :D
Awesome!:DDoesn't really matter if they're active adventurers or not did they get involved with the Return of the Archwizards? Did they leave elminster in hell to fend for himself? Would they get involved if they were needed?... they still exist and still work on a parallel with what the PCs do and they have considerably more power than Drizzt does. Drizzt can't jump from one end of Faerun to the other like the chosen can, drop a few epic spells or whatever and then teleport out. Drizzt also doesn't have interest in say, Thay invading Algarond or Rashemen, his interests are localized in one area, while the chosen have interests all over Faerun.
And as far as typing a thousand ways... why bother? Do away with the problem, as some would see it, and then there won't be a need to come up with ways for the party to take the spotlight from the omniscient and ultra-powerful npcs.
As far as mystra's job description... what does that have to do with how powerful she and her chosen are compared to a drow ranger?
Again as I said, your comparison is not equal by any stretch.
Personally I don't care one way or the other if Drizzt is killed off but I like him far more than I've ever cared for mystra or her chosen.
Ladies and gentlemen. I present you the cowards exit!
1) I run a campaign in the North specifical in the Region of Silverymoon...and I can't account for his actions. He is overshadowing the PC constantly.
Um there is a very simple fix to this one.
If indeed you are running the campaign then it is your campaign and you can do what you want with him. Hell, tell your PCs as they walk to the next town that they stumbled upon a mutilated body on the side of the road. He looks to be a dark elf. And no one hears from Drizzit again.
If you really hate him so much, keep him around and as a 1st level commoner and have the PCs beat him up whenever they get frustrated.
The point is when you are playing, it is YOUR world not WotC, not RA Salvatore, net Ed Greenwoods, it is yours. Do what you want.
Um there is a very simple fix to this one.
-You're missing the point.
Yeah but didn't the goblin asked him to do it? To end his suffering.
-Yeah, something like that.
I understand you are all bent out of shape about the coming changes.
I understand most if not all of the points you are making.
Now understand that the only point I was making was that to compare Drizzt with the abundance of power the chosen and mystra have is a weak comparison. Instead why don't you set up a campaign about how you feel the princes of shade and shar are too powerful and should be killed off, at least they are on a comparitive power level... Drizzt is just one lone ranger.
I realize this is probably very harsh, but why should my campaign suffer just because some people out there have a very poor grip on the Realms, and have no idea how to run politics and intrigue in the background, or how to handle very busy but very powerful NPCs?
That is probably the crux of it, right there. People don't know how to deal with them so the designers are making it easier to handle it. And I would guess its not just some people, but quite a few if they've come to the conclusion they need to be done away with. I'm not saying its right or wrong but that could be one of the reasons the decision came about.
Ladies and gentlemen. I present you the cowards exit!
What the hell does that even mean? Who is taking a cowards exit? I don't think bravery or cowardice are really accurate terms here.
I mean, maybe I'm out of my mind but I equate bravery and cowardice to something more than designing an imaginary DnD game setting. But to each their own I guess.
What I was refering to was the decision many crapy DMs make when they "have to take into account the high lvl NPCs" (you don't have to if you don't want, you can ignore them, and if a player asks about them you only need a quick answer to that, basically telling them: "are you sure you don't want to be the heroes?"). Those DMs preffer to erase the problem rather dan dealing with it like any respectable DM would.
Gotcha, but I don't think its just crappy Dms, I think authors and designers are also in that mix.
I'm curious though, if a "respectable" DM, as you call them, continually makes amends for powerful characters not being around... then why have these powerful npcs at all?
And you can state that there are plenty of other high level npcs but which ones are more recognized and widely known than the chosen as a heroic force getting involved when things get large enough to garner their interest?
So maybe, and I'm just guessing here, the designers are looking to do away with them because there really is no place for them in the realms. If DMs, authors, and designers are continually coming up with reason after reason to account for these individuals' whereabouts when things become escalated enough for the chosen to take an interest, then maybe it is time to remove them altogether because they would definitely get involved or interfere with what is planned.
Just a thought. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just guessing at the reasons as to why they are being eliminated and what Rich Baker meant in his statements.
Gotcha, but I don't think its just crappy Dms, I think authors and designers are also in that mix.
I'm curious though, if a "respectable" DM, as you call them, continually makes amends for powerful characters not being around... then why have these powerful npcs at all?
And you can state that there are plenty of other high level npcs but which ones are more recognized and widely known than the chosen as a heroic force getting involved when things get large enough to garner their interest?
So maybe, and I'm just guessing here, the designers are looking to do away with them because there really is no place for them in the realms. If DMs, authors, and designers are continually coming up with reason after reason to account for these individuals' whereabouts when things become escalated enough for the chosen to take an interest, then maybe it is time to remove them altogether because they would definitely get involved or interfere with what is planned.
Just a thought. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just guessing at the reasons as to why they are being eliminated and what Rich Baker meant in his statements.
Um...again it isn't that we HAVE to make to take their actions into account. We do it because as I said their actions thrust the PCs into the spotlight. Their existence adds to the world.
Personaly a DM can just say they don't exist(as with most of the elements they don't like). These changes are their for the authors and designers so they can tell their stories. Atleast to me this shouldn't be how you handle a RPG setting. If you can't write in a shared worlds rules or handle the characters then you shouldn't be writing in it.
That is probably the crux of it, right there. People don't know how to deal with them so the designers are making it easier to handle it. And I would guess its not just some people, but quite a few if they've come to the conclusion they need to be done away with. I'm not saying its right or wrong but that could be one of the reasons the decision came about.
Yes, I understand entirely. It looks like they catered to a very vocal minority (by the way, we're all minorities on this board, minorities of a minority. Only a very small number of DnD gamers by comparison to all DnD gamers in the world actually use these forums).
Dungeons and Dragons should be about options, not restrictions. I don't mind the time line moving along, but they should leave popular elements alone - so I don't need to go back and fix things as we go.
Right now, as it goes, Wizards of the Coast has quite likely lost me as a Realms customer (which is a shame, because thus far I've been finding what I'm hearing about 4th Edition DnD rather intriguing). This is not the way to go about retaining customers - but of course they're not interested in retaining customers, they're trying to get new ones in... But it won't work to increase the number of Realms gamers unless they also retain their old customers - 'cause, IMHO, at the rate they're going they'll end up losing as many as they gain. Dungeons and Dragons is a niche hobby, and as such, in order to grow, it needs to perform the delicate balancing act of retaining old customers while gaining new ones... It's almost impossible, and I laud them for some of the things they're trying (Astrid's Parlour springs to mind), but these changes to the Realms... *shakes her head* I just don't understand how they think this'll keep the old and bring in the new.
By the way, I came into the Realms at about the end of 2nd Edition - and I was not put off by "everything that had gone before"... I just jumped right in and found elements I loved... elements they're now removing from the setting. For me, Mystra and her Chosen are an integral part of the feel and flavour of the Realms. Without them, the world is YAGFS... This doesn't mean I'll stop playing Realms based games, but what it does mean is that I have no motivation/reason to actually buy Realms books for 4e (which is the whole point - they want to sell books), since I'd have to do masses of work to make it fit with my (Mystra and Chosen inclusive) Realms.
To people who say I'm throwing out the baby with the bathwater - if I'm equating Mystra to the Realms, that means that when they kill Mystra, they kill the Realms for me. It doesn't matter what other shiny nifty things they do with the setting, nothing will make up for her absence in my mind. If they really want to keep me interested in the setting, the other changes should be minor enough that I can put Mystra back in without too much reworking, but also intriguing enough to get my attention now they've put me off - so far it's not looking good.
To the people saying "if you don't like Drizzt, don't include him"... Well that's the point isn't it? If you don't like don't include . That simple thing could have kept Mystra alive.
Ladies and gentlemen. I present you the cowards exit!
I agree with Inex, this is a weird response. Very dramatic though, but I am not sure what it means.
I am sure there may be some things I do not like in the new FR, oh well. My only real concerns are getting new windows for my home. Killing off NPCS or gods that as a DM I can keep in my game is nothing compared to RL stuff.
Anyway I see Semmonon playing a much bigger role in the new Realms. Any thoughts on that? Y'know I'll just make a thread on that...
To a lesser extent, both Cyric and Kelemvor did the same thing. However, they both adapted and eventually took on the role of a god. Mystra never seemed to shed her mortal outlook.
If they absolutely, positively, must have a goddess of magic, I hope they bring back Mystryl.
And as an aside: I have a Pally/Wizard of Mystra (the Midnight version). And it will be extremely fun to play out her death, the loss of his paladin powers (perhaps temporarily, who knows) and his resulting depression.
As far as Drizzt goes: Lets not kill him off just yet. The character is still somewhat interesting to me.
I'm curious though, if a "respectable" DM, as you call them, continually makes amends for powerful characters not being around... then why have these powerful npcs at all?
Simple answer to that: Because they were written about by Ed Greenwood and as a result have become ingrained into FR in that way. Don't get me wrong, I'm in total agreement with the logic and common sense of your statement, I think the new designers should be commended for having the maturity to introduce a true RSE which is a real shake up (regardless of the fact the only motivator being an edition change) rather than these psuedo-RSE's that always seem to maintain the status quo. DEATH TO THE FANTASY PORN! LONG LIVE THE NEW FLESH!
I am calling for the death of Drizzt Do'Urden for a couple of reasons. And well unfortunaly WotC only seems to listen to radicles in this.
1) I run a campaign in the North specifical in the Region of Silverymoon...and I can't account for his actions. He is overshadowing the PC constantly.
2) I think his levels are too high for what they should be. I don't even want to think what his levels will be after a 100 years of fighting in the chaos of the Spell Plague.
3) I think it is very unrealistic that he has not attracted the attention of Eilisraee worshippers or vice versa...he really doesn't feel like part of the Realms.
4) I think it will be nicer to give that area back to gamers and maybe other authors...I mean the north could be recalled Drizzt's land.
5) I think his story is done...I am tired of the conflict between him and evil drow. He should die so we can tell other stories about them.
I'll give anybody a
This is a parody of what they are doing to the Chosen of Mystra.;)
-Then again, in order to make the 'new' Realms fully compatable for all of those people who are worried about their characters being overshadowed, ever NPC over Level 1 needs to be removed. After all, a Level 2 character can do things a Level 1 character can not.
;)
Yes indeed. And we wouldn't want players of fresh, naive level 1 characters to feel overshadowed by anyone else, now would we? We can't have players thinking that there might be other people in the setting who can do things that their new characters can't--it might hurt their feelings.
Maybe, but powerful NPC's only really affects those people who MUST have their badass uber "Im the best" characters who can't stand not being the most powerful.
Honestly. Anyone who feels dismayed because their character is not powerful compared to some NPC's who have books written about them is just pathetic. If they care so much about it, they can start an epic campaign and stack their characters. Its the dumbest thing to complain about. If you do not like Canon NPC's, then don't use them.
Tell that to WotC.
The type of person you just described is exactly the type of person they seem to be catering to now. If you don't believe me, just read their own comments.
This reboot is not for us. This reboot is for novel writers. I'm beginning to become quite convinced of this. They could have taken a less destructive route towards bringing the Realms into 4th Edition, and yet they chose the route that novel writers will get the most mileage out of.
I think you're right.
;)
Yes indeed. And we wouldn't want players of fresh, naive level 1 characters to feel overshadowed by anyone else, now would we? We can't have players thinking that there might be other people in the setting who can do things that their new characters can't--it might hurt their feelings.
-No, we wouldn't. We're nice and considerate like that.
Smell like grognard spirit. Hate the changes, insult the makers and the pro-crowd's intelligence...
What intelligence?:P
Richard Baker and their pals should have extanded vacations after the days the books will be out, paid by the communauty.
No &*%#ing way. That's money I can use to buy more Chanel.
-No, we wouldn't. We're nice and considerate like that.
The feelings of level 1 characters (and their players) are ever so fragile. It's funny, really, that these are the same people who dream of slaying dragons and stuff.
I'm actually glad that Midnight-is-Mystra is dying. She perverted the role of the Goddess of Magic by bringing her mortal morality into it.
To a lesser extent, both Cyric and Kelemvor did the same thing. However, they both adapted and eventually took on the role of a god. Mystra never seemed to shed her mortal outlook.
Do you( and I have to say the designers) read the FR soucebooks? Read Faiths & Pantheons page 50. Under Mystra. Under History/Relationship. There yet? Now read the last sentence in the first paragraph...if that is too much of a bother to you(as it seems to be for the designers to respect anything about the past) I'll just tell you
"Howerver since then she seems to have learned her role as guardian of the Balance ans impartial arbiter of the Weave"
Now read Cyric entry...now tell me who has moved on and who has not? Evidently Cyric hasn't moved on and wouldn't till the designers had to have him butcher a interesting character. Heck Cyric is still gunning foe Kelemvor for stuff that happened as a mortal.
As far as Drizzt goes: Lets not kill him off just yet. The character is still somewhat interesting to me.
Never meant he should be killed off. Me I have not much used for the 'best' fighter in the FR who does nothing but kills potential adventures in the North...but I would never advocate his death as there are fans that enjoy him.
But Mystra was such a interesting character to me because it what should happen when a mortal becomes a god...you loose you mortal identity...unlike Cyric who isn't even very representive of it the things he represents...except for what he lost and that was maddness.
Do you( and I have to say the designers) read the FR soucebooks? Read Faiths & Pantheons page 50. Under Mystra. Under History/Relationship. There yet? Now read the last sentence in the first paragraph...if that is too much of a bother to you(as it seems to be for the designers to respect anything about the past) I'll just tell you
"Howerver since then she seems to have learned her role as guardian of the Balance ans impartial arbiter of the Weave"
Now read Cyric entry...now tell me who has moved on and who has not? Evidently Cyric hasn't moved on and wouldn't till the designers had to have him butcher a interesting character. Heck Cyric is still gunning foe Kelemvor for stuff that happened as a mortal.
Never meant he should be killed off. Me I have not much used for the 'best' fighter in the FR who does nothing but kills potential adventures in the North...but I would never advocate his death as there are fans that enjoy him.
But Mystra was such a interesting character to me because it what should happen when a mortal becomes a god...you loose you mortal identity...unlike Cyric who isn't even very representive of it the things he represents...except for what he lost and that was maddness.
Yeah, I've read the sourcebooks. Still, I'm going on her characterization in the novels.
I am somewhat behind when it comes to the novels though. The last one I remember reading about with Mystra as a character ended with Cyric drinking her and Kelemvor's tears.
Here's a little idea for you: What if, *gasp* just what if the realms is more interesting to you after Mystra's death?
You don't know whether or not it will be is my point.
Puritan13, it seems that the forums aren't allowing me to quote right at the moment, but in response to this...
"Here's a little idea for you: What if, *gasp* just what if the realms is more interesting to you after Mystra's death?
You don't know whether or not it will be is my point."
If that does happen, I'll eat my hat and post a picture to the forums to prove it. (Well I won't really eat it, as I like my Akubra, but I'll post a picture of myself with a knife and fork sitting in front of my hat as if to eat it).
But I can guarantee you that it won't be.
Or it could be that u are a fighting soldier who encountered no match in battle. U are only human and u want to die fighting, u are now getting old and want a to die by the hands of a better fighter. So u look for Drizzt
Heya,
Puritan13, it seems that the forums aren't allowing me to quote right at the moment, but in response to this...
"Here's a little idea for you: What if, *gasp* just what if the realms is more interesting to you after Mystra's death?
You don't know whether or not it will be is my point."
If that does happen, I'll eat my hat and post a picture to the forums to prove it. (Well I won't really eat it, as I like my Akubra, but I'll post a picture of myself with a knife and fork sitting in front of my hat as if to eat it).
But I can guarantee you that it won't be.
I won't fault you for not buying into the new FR. It's entirely your decision.
Hell, I never moved from the OWoD to the NWoD. I like some of the stuff, but not enough to buy a whole new set of books. My old books aren't broken.
But perhaps keeping an open mind is a better idea than the rampant "OMG, they're killing Mystra! BURN THEM!!" that is going on 'round here.
Yeah, I've read the sourcebooks. Still, I'm going on her characterization in the novels.
I am somewhat behind when it comes to the novels though. The last one I remember reading about with Mystra as a character ended with Cyric drinking her and Kelemvor's tears.
You also seem to be a little behind on your soucebooks too. Also when novels and soucebooks clash I always go with the soucebook. That is just me though since the soucebook is (well used to be) writen for the RPG and the novels are only generaly written to tell the story the writer wants to tell so in doing so he take artistic licenses with the facts.
Here's a little idea for you: What if, *gasp* just what if the realms is more interesting to you after Mystra's death?
You don't know whether or not it will be is my point.
Actualy with the reasons why they have removed the Weave, the 7 Sisters and Mystra I have to I rather doubt as they seem to want to create a world where PCs are the heroes at 1st level and the universe centrals around them...me I perfer a living setting.
If u want to kill him then u could make the plot very dramatic like: A bunch of bad guys who settle in Faerun come to hear about Drizzt's achievements. These bad guys want nothing more than to fight anybody, and now they're looking for Drizzt coz they believe he's a great challenge. ON their way to the NOrth (where they brag all over about killing Drizzt), Drizzt's friends defend the drow and u encounter lots of good guys on the way.
Or it could be that u are a fighting soldier who encountered no match in battle. U are only human and u want to die fighting, u are now getting old and want a to die by the hands of a better fighter. So u look for Drizzt
I've told this story a couple of times before.
We had a DM that couldn't run a game and not bring in Drizzt and the gang. As soon as we'd get into a bit of a scrape, a warhammer would come flying through a window or a door or something and strike dead one of our enemies. The drow and his friends would then burst through the door and wipe up our enemies. Oftentimes with us as bystanders.
This happened so often that eventually we got a bit tired of it. Our mage tried dropping a wall of iron on Drizzt. DM fiat said it didn't work. We fought and fought that group of heroes, and even though we outleveled them by 8 or 9 levels each (our highest level character was a 24th level mage), the DM just said "No". He didn't bother rolling saves or checks or anything else. Drizzt and company just up and escaped.
In our group, we had a system. Each of us liked to DM, so we were given reign over a world. This DM was taken off of the Realms and moved over to Ravenloft.
No, we never saw Drizzt in Ravenloft.
Off topic, but this topic got me thinking about things that happened a decade ago.
Then Drizzt gets carried to the arena. His opponent, the one and only Shurrupak!!
You also seem to be a little behind on your soucebooks too. Also when novels and soucebooks clash I always go with the soucebook. That is just me though since the soucebook is (well used to be) writen for the RPG and the novels are only generaly written to tell the story the writer wants to tell so in doing so he take artistic licenses with the facts.
Actualy with the reasons why they have removed the Weave, the 7 Sisters and Mystra I have to I rather doubt as they seem to want to create a world where PCs are the heroes at 1st level and the universe centrals around them...me I perfer a living setting.
I've always gone with the novels when it comes to fluff. I want my sourcebooks crunch heavy.
I think you're talking about their "behind the scenes" reasons for removing the weave. From what I can gather, it will be a whole new system of magic. They may not be able to reconcile the Vancian magic system with the new system. So yeah, behind the scenes the removal of Mystra and the weave is based on the change to a 4e casting system.
But what if the story is good? What if it's great? Trust me, as a guy who lived through the whole TSR fiasco, the people they have working on D&D are a Godsend.
The PC's have always been the heroes of my campaigns. Or at least I've tried to make it so. The only time they ever meet one of the higher level NPC's is when they go looking for them.
I've always gone with the novels when it comes to fluff. I want my sourcebooks crunch heavy.
I think you're talking about their "behind the scenes" reasons for removing the weave. From what I can gather, it will be a whole new system of magic. They may not be able to reconcile the Vancian magic system with the new system. So yeah, behind the scenes the removal of Mystra and the weave is based on the change to a 4e casting system.
But what if the story is good? What if it's great? Trust me, as a guy who lived through the whole TSR fiasco, the people they have working on D&D are a Godsend.
The PC's have always been the heroes of my campaigns. Or at least I've tried to make it so. The only time they ever meet one of the higher level NPC's is when they go looking for them.
The novels to me have always been treated like Romantic Histories of the Realms, if you are not familar with that genre it is when a writers takes a actual historical even and fictionalize it. A example of this The Three Musketeers, Rob Roy, The Killer Angels(latter renamed for the movie that it was based upon Gettysburg). The have very little based in what actualy happens. They get the names right and most of the events right.
That is the issue the Weave doesn't have any mechanical ties to any spell casting system. Actualy I can believe they just didn't simply use it as a way to change the new casting system by keeping it and reducing the 'powers' of Mystra and the Choosen....that way they could've kept alot more people happy.
I have been around for just as long as you have been.(I still remember the grey box, still have everything from it too, alas the box didn't survive). I remember the Realms as always been there for everyone...now these changes seem to me to be for the designers, the authors, and a group(I won't presume on the size of said group because I don't think anybody including them have a good idea). They are definitly not for people like me and the others who have spoken out against these changes. I just think they are being extremely short sighted in this change and I think in the end it will prove very unpopular with the fans. And by then it will be too late.
In my games the PCs are always heroes too( well some are more than others but then again I also like some variety in my character's motivations), but is it any less heroic to save a child from the orc then it is to save the world? A hero goes out there and fight for what they believe is right no matter how big or small it is. But it seems to me thease changes are catering to people who seem to believe if you are not saving the world by level 5 then you are not a hero...
I've told this story a couple of times before.
We had a DM that couldn't run a game and not bring in Drizzt and the gang. As soon as we'd get into a bit of a scrape, a warhammer would come flying through a window or a door or something and strike dead one of our enemies. The drow and his friends would then burst through the door and wipe up our enemies. Oftentimes with us as bystanders.
This happened so often that eventually we got a bit tired of it. Our mage tried dropping a wall of iron on Drizzt. DM fiat said it didn't work. We fought and fought that group of heroes, and even though we outleveled them by 8 or 9 levels each (our highest level character was a 24th level mage), the DM just said "No". He didn't bother rolling saves or checks or anything else. Drizzt and company just up and escaped.
In our group, we had a system. Each of us liked to DM, so we were given reign over a world. This DM was taken off of the Realms and moved over to Ravenloft.
No, we never saw Drizzt in Ravenloft.
Off topic, but this topic got me thinking about things that happened a decade ago.
Im so Sorry for ya dude! Actually wouldnt Ravenloft be a good place to banish Drizzt in the first place?:D
Drizzt isn't active enough to effect any campaign that isn't in his exact home territory, and even there, whether he got pulled in would be kinda debateable(depending I think on whether it effects him or his friends)
... Drizzt has become rather boring though. If they're not gonna expand the character, then they should give him a decently memorable death before his character devolves into worthlessness.
But perhaps keeping an open mind is a better idea than the rampant "OMG, they're killing Mystra! BURN THEM!!" that is going on 'round here.
Keeping an open mind is overrated. There's nothing wrong with putting one's foot down and having an opinion.
And seriously, if people change their minds, they change their minds. This is a hobby, not a matter of life and death. It's not a big deal.
In fact, it's one of the principles I put into the gameworld I run now. No matter how strong any of the PCs get, there will absolutely always be someone stronger than them, if only because it is necessary to keep a sense of perspective in the world, a sense of challenge, and to keep the players from, well, running amok, as a tiny minority might otherwise be tempted to do. In my experience, the ones that haven't been able to cope with it really aren't the sort I'd honestly want to play with - but that's my personal opinion, of course.
Ultimately, I think I'll probably want to divorce my game from any semblance of following the official timeline, probably in the early 1370s somewhere. However, given the number of people involved, it won't be my decision entirely, so that will only be the direction I'll lead in. I certainly am not inclined in any way at present to pick up the books, so it will just be community web-based projects for support, most likely, either in 3.5, or in 4.0, depending on the new rules (which do sound quite promising, FR storyline issues aside).
Drizzt is technically a Paladin right? In the opening to the orc king, even with his fat 600 pound pet, he never killed anyone. "Your reputation proceeds you well" Of what, saving every living creature possible? I really don't understand what any of you find so compelling about this character. I can understand maybe the adventures...maybe even his enemies...but what is so hard pressed that this joke of character must survive 20 years? What makes him so different from Tanis in Dragonlance? So differnt from harry potter? So differnt from Lord of the Rings? I'll tell you, it's the adventures...but not the stupid retard drow character. Artemis has softened up in temrs of now becomming a Paladin like drizzt and fights just like drizzt, before you know it...all of Salvantores characters will be drizzt.
Drzzt is of a good allingment, that dosen't make him a Paladin, and i don't see how Artemis is becoming a paladin
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just because he came to grip with alot of personal demons at the end of RotP dosen't mean he's become a paladin, if anything he just had a shift from evil to neutral allingment. Which i think is more an effect of the magic of that flute he had then anything but i get off my point.
As far as ExtinctionBeta is concerned, any vaguely heroic character is a paladin.
Drizzt is technically a Paladin right? In the opening to the orc king, even with his fat 600 pound pet, he never killed anyone. "Your reputation proceeds you well" Of what, saving every living creature possible? I really don't understand what any of you find so compelling about this character. I can understand maybe the adventures...maybe even his enemies...but what is so hard pressed that this joke of character must survive 20 years? What makes him so different from Tanis in Dragonlance? So differnt from harry potter? So differnt from Lord of the Rings? I'll tell you, it's the adventures...but not the stupid retard drow character. Artemis has softened up in temrs of now becomming a Paladin like drizzt and fights just like drizzt, before you know it...all of Salvantores characters will be drizzt.
You hate the character but still read the books? Are you a masochist? Your view of paladins is screwed a bit.
Plus unless Artemis cahnged his thoughts on torturing people to get info, then he is still evil. It's like Eberron. Evil can do good deeds.;)
You hate the character but still read the books? Are you a masochist? Your view of paladins is screwed a bit.
Plus unless Artemis cahnged his thoughts on torturing people to get info, then he is still evil. It's like Eberron. Evil can do good deeds.;)
He is not evil. Evil would condem the fact of going out of your way to casue harm. And he only causes doom onto others that would try onto him. Never will you see Artemis going out of his way to kill some innocent person for the hell of it. If you are not in his way, you are as good as gold. Maybe you should reconsider your use of terms when using them so openly. And I deterate Drizzt as a Paladin not in terms of class, but in actions. I can imagine anyone under Lanthanders followers doing no different from him. Trust me, if any "evil" character in Forgotten realms was about, they would be dead, for good always wins in fantasy-where as the real world in more sensible logic...there is no such thing as "karma", for the world is as you make it weather it be for good or bad.
And now I decide to put Extinction Beta on the ignore list.
Personally, Extinction Beta, I believe you need to see a psichiatrist. Or a priest.
Did somthing in my last post not sound logical in any terms of perspective? Or are you just jumping the band wagon to feel the need with the crowd? I don't remember ever talking to you or giving you any personal reason to hate me. If you do not like what I post, do not read it. If I somehow insult you, notfiy me and I will fix that which is wrong, or if the problem persist, simply ignore me then. But I see no reason for this act of blind hate, who knows..maybe you're having a bad day. But since I have never known/talked/pmed/posted with/to you...I care not for the ignore. I hope the ignore of me will allow you to enjoy to forums from here on out.
And for the record, please do not reccomend me a "presit". *Note* I am not bashing religion, merely replying to that which I took offensive to a suggestion given to me.
"One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests"
-The Great Infidels", 1881 also from Speech, New York City, 1 May 1881
Take care friend I never knew.
Evil does not have to kill aimlessly, and doing good the majority of the time does not make you a paladin.
Artemis doesn't have to kill every living being in his path to be evil. That is whim, and thus chaos. Often a Chaotic Evil character will kill on a whim, but that is the chaotic part of his alignment coming into play, not the evil side.
Being "Evil" is simply lacking the moral compunctions others might have in regards to acts involving the lives of others. Killing a person and enjoying doing so, is still evil, even if you only do it once a month.
Taking pleasure in the pain of others is Evil, even if you don't practice dealing the pain yourself.
On the flip side of this argument, one can uphold good ideals, and show mercy where none would be shown in return, but it in no way indentures them into the restrictive world of a paladin. In combat, Drizzt has time and again disarmed a foe before felling him. Were he a paladin, his moral code, and divine edicts could not allow such a kill. He would be required to allow the enemy to retrieve his weapon, or force a surrender.
Good does not mean that of the righteous paladin, and Evil is not the chaos of the abyss.
Again, much of your delusions could be solved if you simply picked up a DnD source book, and spent an hour re-evaluating your flawed opinions. If you don't want to do this, fine, I could care less, but in that case stay of the boards.
Your perceptions of good and evil are flawed for one EB.
Evil does not have to kill aimlessly, and doing good the majority of the time does not make you a paladin.
Artemis doesn't have to kill every living being in his path to be evil. That is whim, and thus chaos. Often a Chaotic Evil character will kill on a whim, but that is the chaotic part of his alignment coming into play, not the evil side.
Being "Evil" is simply lacking the moral compunctions others might have in regards to acts involving the lives of others. Killing a person and enjoying doing so, is still evil, even if you only do it once a month.
Taking pleasure in the pain of others is Evil, even if you don't practice dealing the pain yourself.
On the flip side of this argument, one can uphold good ideals, and show mercy where none would be shown in return, but it in no way indentures them into the restrictive world of a paladin. In combat, Drizzt has time and again disarmed a foe before felling him. Were he a paladin, his moral code, and divine edicts could not allow such a kill. He would be required to allow the enemy to retrieve his weapon, or force a surrender.
Good does not mean that of the righteous paladin, and Evil is not the chaos of the abyss.
Again, much of your delusions could be solved if you simply picked up a DnD source book, and spent an hour re-evaluating your flawed opinions. If you don't want to do this, fine, I could care less, but in that case stay of the boards.
I stand corrected Red. Thank you for your advice sceincrely and I will do so this weekend to obtain a DnD guide. And for all our benifits, there is no good or evil, but only how we precieve it to our onlook. In Hitlers eyes, he was doing the world a great deed. In others, he was chaotic.
I'm am glad though that you were willing to read what I wrote this time. Makes life easier when you step back and take a better look at things. ;)
Honestly though, jokes aside, it would be a terrible choice. She can barely keep herself from attacking Thay now, just think of what would happen if she got her hands on the position to cut them all loose. The Simbul would pull a maneuver worse that the one Midnight tried before she smartened up.
He is not evil. Evil would condem the fact of going out of your way to casue harm. And he only causes doom onto others that would try onto him. Never will you see Artemis going out of his way to kill some innocent person for the hell of it. If you are not in his way, you are as good as gold. Maybe you should reconsider your use of terms when using them so openly. And I deterate Drizzt as a Paladin not in terms of class, but in actions. I can imagine anyone under Lanthanders followers doing no different from him. Trust me, if any "evil" character in Forgotten realms was about, they would be dead, for good always wins in fantasy-where as the real world in more sensible logic...there is no such thing as "karma", for the world is as you make it weather it be for good or bad.
Artemes is evil by D&D standards.
Never will you see Artemis going out of his way to kill some innocent person for the hell of it.
Yeah, not like he killed those Dwarves around Cattie-Brie or those carters she was travelling with.
;-D
Artemis has gotten better as a human being but he has a ridiculous body count.
No, Artemis isn't evil at all...
He still rocks though.
Um? He was payed or had a revenge seek on them?
Again, under the rules of the DnD game performing a calculated, cold blooded murder for the purpose of gaining profit is defined as an evil act. Further there's no point in bringing the DnD alignment terminology in to real world examples, like Jews and Arabs, the two just don't mix.
Again, under the rules of the DnD game performing a calculated, cold blooded murder for the purpose of gaining profit is defined as an evil act. Further there's no point in bringing the DnD alignment terminology in to real world examples, like Jews and Arabs, the two just don't mix.
So why should there be a difference between Lawful evil/Neutral evil/Chaotic evil? According to your sense of logic from DnD terms, anyone who does a bad act are the same. Either let it be stealing or murder...by your logical standpoint...you are evil on the same lengths. I am glad I am not part of this fantasy world with it's silly social status.
So why should there be a difference between Lawful evil/Neutral evil/Chaotic evil?
Yeah that's because it's one of the fundamentals of the game's rules if you start to take away such distinctions it renders a large proportion of other rules negligible.
According to your sense of logic from DnD terms, anyone who does a bad act are the same. Either let it be stealing or murder...by your logical standpoint...you are evil on the same lengths.
According to my terms....What? I used words to the effect of: Murder solely for profit is regarded as an evil act in the DnD game (an infallible statement) and then added a full stop at the end of my short missive. Further I would hasten to add that in the real world, murder solely for profit is also an evil act according to my belief system and sense of moral.
I am glad I am not part of this fantasy world with it's silly social status.
What are you talking about? It has nothing to do with social status, the alignment system is a contextual outline from which to build perspective of a DnD campaign world and as such has various game rules attached to it.
Hmmm, I foresee this discussion taking a turn down the alignment debate toilet.
Again, under the rules of the DnD game performing a calculated, cold blooded murder for the purpose of gaining profit is defined as an evil act.
I think it's evil in the real world too. That may just be me though...
So why should there be a difference between Lawful evil/Neutral evil/Chaotic evil? According to your sense of logic from DnD terms, anyone who does a bad act are the same. Either let it be stealing or murder...by your logical standpoint...you are evil on the same lengths. I am glad I am not part of this fantasy world with it's silly social status.
*Sigh* And just when I thought you were pulling around.
Here, I'll make you're life as easy as a single click. This link will take you to the DnD alignment chart available on the SRD.
Read it.
When you are done, you should have a better understanding of what we are talking about here. We all freely admit that there are grey areas between the alignments that are represented in the game itself, but those are best handled with RPing, rather than making more unneeded rules.
The alignments as set out by the game are guidelines to follow when playing your character. Sure an evil bastard might preform a seemingly good act, or a good person might stoop to murder to save a loved one. Rules are not needed for this, simply common sense.
Yes neutral people can kill. Yes good people can kill, but only Evil people will enjoy it, or not think twice about doing so. Artemis falls into this category, hence his evil alignment.
*Sigh* And just when I thought you were pulling around.
Here, I'll make you're life as easy as a single click. This link will take you to the DnD alignment chart available on the SRD.
Read it.
When you are done, you should have a better understanding of what we are talking about here. We all freely admit that there are grey areas between the alignments that are represented in the game itself, but those are best handled with RPing, rather than making more unneeded rules.
The alignments as set out by the game are guidelines to follow when playing your character. Sure an evil bastard might preform a seemingly good act, or a good person might stoop to murder to save a loved one. Rules are not needed for this, simply common sense.
Yes neutral people can kill. Yes good people can kill, but only Evil people will enjoy it, or not think twice about doing so. Artemis falls into this category, hence his evil alignment.
Plus, it says "LE" next to "AL" in his statblock in the FRCS.
I think it's pretty obvious who he was created to go against, what with the diametric opposite of LE being CG and all...
Um? He was payed or had a revenge seek on them? He did not just walk up and say, I think I will kill you today because I feel like it. None of you have too great of comprehension to when you view aspects of moral standards. If somone killed your mother and you killed them for it, I would not see you as evil. Most people he has killed if not all, he was payed to do or had some grudge agaisn't them. Logic+1 kids
No, they were in his way and entirely innocent of any wrongdoing. Artemis Enteri in Servant of the Shard or the Sellswords is not the same Artemis of Streams of Silver. That man is a cold blooded mass murderer who gets his only thrills from slaughtering people.
It wouldn't be a story of semi-redemption if the man wasn't evil to begin with.
... and I personally think that Artemis has moved from an Evil alignment in earlier books to a lameness alignment in latter books. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Enteri actually started doing good without expectation of reward a couple of books down the line.
The character was just plain better off without his past being explained away, and before he started doubting himself(all the failures due to miscommunication in that last Jarlaxle/Enteri book were annoying too).
We need more novels with ambitious, ruthless, and competant evil characters as protagonists.
We need more novels with ambitious, ruthless, and competant evil characters as protagonists.
Obviously I don't speak for everyone, but books like that probably wouldn't do much for me.
We need more novels with ambitious, ruthless, and competant evil characters as protagonists.
Why?
For a start, there are already plenty of novels out there of that nature... They just don't happen to be Forgotten Realms novels.
Secondly, I don't get the fascination with evil, truly... Oh I am fascinated by why evil works the way it does (psychology, criminology), but honestly I am just as equally fascinated by methods used to bring evil-doers to justice (detective work, criminology, and forensics), or methods used to treat evil doers to reform them (psychology).
Evil characters can be smart, competent, careful, and complex characters, but so can good ones. Seeing smart vs smart, competent vs competent, careful vs careful, complex vs complex makes for interesting reading... But there is no joy for me if the Evil character beats the Good one, no satisfaction in it at all.
But there is no joy for me if the Evil character beats the Good one, no satisfaction in it at all.
-It's the antithesis of mainstream fantasy.
For my part, I love the Drizzt novels. I've never met a single one I haven't loved or at least liked. My favorites to date are the Hunter's Blades trilogy, which is funny--I've heard some people say those are the weakest of the Drizzt novels, but I think they're the strongest. Guess that's proof of how very different two readers can be.
So I'm going to be as loud as the original poster in proclaiming that Drizzt must live! (And whatever the event, we know that Drizzt will be around for at least one hundred years more, that is set in print thanks to the Prelude of The Orc King, so we'll be seeing plenty of Drizzt in the future.
Now Tos'un Armgo, he's awesome character, and hopefully we get to read more about him in future novels.
I notice we still have people missing the point in this thread.
Guys, don't post unless you've read the whole thread!
The OP was never proposing to off Drizzt, or saying he didn't want him in his games. He was showing that the reasoning given for the removal of Mystra and her Chosen could easily be applied to ANY NPC in the Realms.
The conclusion is that the removal of Mystra and her Chosen is completely unnecessary.
Heya,
I notice we still have people missing the point in this thread.
Guys, don't post unless you've read the whole thread!
The OP was never proposing to off Drizzt, or saying he didn't want him in his games. He was showing that the reasoning given for the removal of Mystra and her Chosen could easily be applied to ANY NPC in the Realms.
The conclusion is that the removal of Mystra and her Chosen is completely unnecessary.
-Yes, yes, yes. It's been repeated multiple times. People just aren't going to learn. And, with everyone's righteous rage for or against the preposed changes to the Realms in 4e, people are listening even less.
WizO_Unicorn
and frankly, the Annihilation series pretty much proved why we don't have evil protagionists.
It's profoundly unsatisfying.
-Yes, yes, yes. It's been repeated multiple times. People just aren't going to learn. And, with everyone's righteous rage for or against the preposed changes to the Realms in 4e, people are listening even less.
No it just proves how much people just read the first post and just respond...that has been happening before the 4th edition was even a twinkle in the game designers eyes.
My mistake was using subtility in age when sledgehammers are needed.
I don't consider it bashing.
and frankly, the Annihilation series pretty much proved why we don't have evil protagionists.
It's profoundly unsatisfying.
Which was that? I think I might have missed some posts since the last time I checked this thread.
*shrugs* If you don't like Drizzt, don't read him. If you don't like Drizzt in your games, contrive some distraction to keep him out of your hair--a bandit problem or a visit to Silverymoon or an epic and blissfully someplace-else battle with Errtu or Druzil. There's quite a lot of the Silver Marches and only so much of Drizzt Do'Urden to fill them up. Unless you're egotistical enough to think that the infamous ranger gives two tin rothe turds about what you and your little adventuring party are up to, he's not going to stalk you. (j/k)
I agree with you 100%. There is enough room in the world for Drizzt, the 7 Sisters, etc, and serveral adventureing groups of PCs. That was my point...
Read more of the posts.For my part, I love the Drizzt novels. I've never met a single one I haven't loved or at least liked. My favorites to date are the Hunter's Blades trilogy, which is funny--I've heard some people say those are the weakest of the Drizzt novels, but I think they're the strongest. Guess that's proof of how very different two readers can be.
For the most part I agree though they are directions with the character I would like to see taken he is a great character.
So I'm going to be as loud as the original poster in proclaiming that Drizzt must live! (And whatever the event, we know that Drizzt will be around for at least one hundred years more, that is set in print thanks to the Prelude of The Orc King, so we'll be seeing plenty of Drizzt in the future.
And I'll join you in proclaiming Drizzt must live. Hopefuly when his popularity starts to lessen we will be able to keep him around. Though with what happened to the 7 Sister and Mystra I don't think we will succeed.
No it just proves how much people just read the first post and just respond...that has been happening before the 4th edition was even a twinkle in the game designers eyes.
-Simply reading the first post and responding is the messageboard equivalent of not listening.
My mistake was using subtility in age when sledgehammers are needed.
-Hey, it's not your fault that you Innuendo roll was higher than their Sense Motive.
Though with what happened to the 7 Sister and Mystra I don't think we will succeed.
I just got my cope of GHotR yesterday. I know what happens to Mystra, mind telling me what happens to the 7 sisters.
I'm aware of Khelben and Elminsters status, but the sisters I haven't found yet.
I've yet to see it being officialised anywhere the seven have been killed off (worst luck
), just makes me question whether the pro chosen lobby do in fact enjoy the characters themselves or simply the fact they are presented as 'Teh sexi ladeez wit da asomezt madz skillz anime!1!'I just got my cope of GHotR yesterday. I know what happens to Mystra, mind telling me what happens to the 7 sisters.
I'm aware of Khelben and Elminsters status, but the sisters I haven't found yet.
It has been unrevealed to the exact fate of the choosen but check out Chris Perkins blog where he says pretty much fans will not be happy with their fate. I believe not all will be killed but they are going to be seriously messed with.
It has been unrevealed to the exact fate of the choosen but check out Chris Perkins blog where he says pretty much fans will not be happy with their fate. I believe not all will be killed but they are going to be seriously messed with.
Sigh... can't we get some news we can actually be happy about with these changes, for once?
I get the feeling a god of magic won't be required to fit the game rules of 4th edition, I'm thinking magic will infuse faerun and give all classes access to it. Alternatively this would be what? The third time she's died and been brought back. Trite much? Let the dead stay buried.
I've yet to see it being officialised anywhere the seven have been killed off (worst luck
Fighters with magic? Ugh, lame. Don't give them ideas. Magic is for the casters, the fighters should stick with their phallic sticks.
Fighters with magic? Ugh, lame. Don't give them ideas. Magic is for the casters, the fighters should stick with their phallic sticks.
Not something I particularly care about, I have very little interest 4E as a game system.
As for why Drizzt and Eilistraee aren't teaming up. Drizzt is more or less an agnostic. Gods/Goddesses have little impact on him. Just b/c he's a 'good drow' doesn't mean he has to worship the good drow goddess. Even his relationship with Mielikki is much more a passive one. And that's because he finds his roots in being a ranger, as opposed to finding his roots in being a drow. And I'm sure, Drizzt, RAS, and fans/non-fans do not find it likely Drizzt will be dancing naked in the forest at full moon praising Eilistraee.
Once again, this thread is satire and not really about Drizzt...
*GASP* Everything is about Drizzt!
EVERYTHING!!!
"Listen, jackass, where was she when I needed her the most?"
Re: El.
Whether you want to place your campaign in 3.5 or 4, whether Drizzt lives in the North (or elsewhere or dead), it's completely up to you or your DM whether NPC's 'overshadow' the PC's. So you campaign in the North, where a famous person is, big deal. You don't have to have the NPC interract in your campaign. It's that simple. "Drizzt is away doing other things." or simply not mention him at all lol. I don't think the problem is soley on WotC or authors, a DM's and PC's imagination and creativity are the larger aspect.
As for why Drizzt and Eilistraee aren't teaming up. Drizzt is more or less an agnostic. Gods/Goddesses have little impact on him. Just b/c he's a 'good drow' doesn't mean he has to worship the good drow goddess. Even his relationship with Mielikki is much more a passive one. And that's because he finds his roots in being a ranger, as opposed to finding his roots in being a drow. And I'm sure, Drizzt, RAS, and fans/non-fans do not find it likely Drizzt will be dancing naked in the forest at full moon praising Eilistraee.
Read the entire thread before posting....
I did, my first paragraph goes towards the overall question you originally had, and I wanted to go back to that as 4E brings about a lot of people dying. Some posters are happy about NPC's getting killed off, others not, and I just wanted to bring up the fact that this has been so throughout all the Realms history, that DM's don't have to feel that NPCs are always the Supermans and Justice Leagues of the Realms. :P The thread has teetered on 4E, and I felt like making a point of this, as part of your first post will always be talked about by people who feel the same as you did when you made it, even with so many famous characters dying or otherwise. And there are lots of people obviously unhappy with 4E who might opt to not consider it canon in their campaigns.
Ah...I have never felt that way about any of the NPCs...it was to draw a straight correlation to the reasons given for the destruction of the 7 Sisters and Mystra. I agree with you powerful NPCs don't interphere in campaigns...that was my point.
(1) It's a D&D campaign setting and an FR campaign setting. It feels like FR, but also it uses 4E game mechanics and incorporates all 4E races and classes. The Spellplague and its effects on the world enable us to integrate new 4E mechanics and world elements into the setting in a manner that doesn't require us to ignore canon or rewrite history. Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change.
(3) In 4E FR, the PCs matter. The PCs are the ones accomplishing the truly heroic quests. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't.
(4) FR novels will remain part of the FR canon. As with previous editions, DMs are free (even encouraged) to run FR campaigns that ignore canonical elements that don't suit their individual campaigns.
Point three is especially relevant, yes of course you are the D.M you're free to do whatever you wish even ignoring versimilitude and run down a long list of excuses to explain why the Choosen aren't getting involved (how many do you have? Perhaps they're washing their hair on this occasion :D ).
When a games designer is saying exactly the same thing as some of us having been saying for some time then it just goes to show that it is a valid concern not only for individual D.M's but also from a module writing P.O.V, I think the writing is on the wall my friends.
He didn't directly state the Chosen would all be killed off, but he did strongly imply that their fate would not be pleasant...and, at the same time, told fans that they'd be unhappy about it (so for those complaining about people complaining--the designers have preempted our unhappiness!).
I just wanted to bring up the fact that this has been so throughout all the Realms history, that DM's don't have to feel that NPCs are always the Supermans and Justice Leagues of the Realms. :P
This, of course, applies to all the people who have b*tched over the years about Mystra's Chosen supposedly stealing the spotlight away from their PCs. The control DM's have over their campaigns wasn't enough, so now the Chosen have to be disposed of one by one...
However, he's already started capping them one at a time. Sylune is gone and Khelben.
Given what Drizzt in the prologue said, Quil is also set for doom almost certainly.
Well Drizzt said that the goodly Drow were destroyed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure his comments were more ambiguous than that. Something along the line of them being "gone". He is an unreliable narrator, and maybe he simply doesn't know what happened to them. I think there's still hope, but then again given how things have been going thus far, maybe not. :raincloud
I wish I could get those darned books... (Not The Orc King, I'd have no problems if I wanted it... I mean the Lady Penitent series thus far.)
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While I was under no illusions that they intended to let Halisstra Melarn kill Lolth, it really felt like a huge blow to watch the other Eilistraeeans die, and then to see her abandon everything, after the major build up to it over the previous books. Viewed as part of the larger series though, it's not as bad.
I've enjoyed the Lady Penitent series thus far. It made me feel a lot better about the ending of the War of the Spider Queen series.ShowWhile I was under no illusions that they intended to let Halisstra Melarn kill Lolth, it really felt like a huge blow to watch the other Eilistraeeans die, and then to see her abandon everything, after the major build up to it over the previous books. Viewed as part of the larger series though, it's not as bad.
Well she was never really popular anyway :P But no, I would've though she'd of survived, and maybe become one of the more important beings in the Realms given the events. You have Chosen of Mystra dying, drow gods dying, and she's right in the middle. Is Quilue still a Chosen of Eilistraee aswell?
Yes, and for updated information on her character, check out the Lady Penitent series (as opposed to The Orc King).
I used to think "They would never do that (to me/us) - kill off such a well-liked character/religion/deity."
I feel seriously disabused of this notion, of late.
You and me both. I no longer put anything past the current FR design team.
That is simply a statement of fact.
Heya,
Why?
For a start, there are already plenty of novels out there of that nature... They just don't happen to be Forgotten Realms novels.
Secondly, I don't get the fascination with evil, truly... Oh I am fascinated by why evil works the way it does (psychology, criminology), but honestly I am just as equally fascinated by methods used to bring evil-doers to justice (detective work, criminology, and forensics), or methods used to treat evil doers to reform them (psychology).
Evil characters can be smart, competent, careful, and complex characters, but so can good ones. Seeing smart vs smart, competent vs competent, careful vs careful, complex vs complex makes for interesting reading... But there is no joy for me if the Evil character beats the Good one, no satisfaction in it at all.
The point of such novels would be to add to the world, and I could certainly enjoy Szass Tam defeating the Simbul in a complex chess game for example(although defeating the Simbul shouldn't take a complex chess game)
The problem is that there is no surprise at all. Goodies are perpetually victorious. Insects often going up against gods and winning for all practical purposes... Intelligent and competant evil could only be defeated by much more intelligent, and much more competant good because evil does not limit itself like good does and thus can achieve its goals more easily. Characters that beat great evil should be awesome characters, not lameass characters.
... and since it is actually more natural for the intelligent/ruthless to win unless the forces against them are great, I would prefer to see the ruthless/evil win, rather than get the feeling of perversion from reading about some maggot who just got lucky and brought all the schemes of these exponentially more amazing guys crashing down.
...Like in the new novel series focussed on Thay. That bard is beginning to annoy me. That series should be epic, insects like him only lower the quality of the story. If an insect like him is pivotal to stopping the plans of Szass Tam(rather than it being the zulkirs' own work), its just reason for disgust.
...Like in the new novel series focussed on Thay. That bard is beginning to annoy me. That series should be epic, insects like him only lower the quality of the story.
How so? Epic stories are supposed to encompass a wide variety of people. If a supposedly epic series doesn't give us a reason to care about what's happening, why read it? Focusing on individuals and what's happening to them helps keep the story grounded. The Thay series is already problematic because most of the characters involved are evil and I can't think of a logical reason to hope for them to succeed against Szass Tam when they are just as bad (if not worse) as he is.
Also, intelligence and even ruthlessness need not be limited only to "evil" people.
...Like in the new novel series focussed on Thay. That bard is beginning to annoy me. That series should be epic, insects like him only lower the quality of the story.
Wtf man, this is my favorite good guy character, and you can ask anyone on the forums, I hate goodly characters. Even if he loses a battle or has to run away, he just keeps comming back. How many times did he try and raid the red wizard cave. Then he took on the deformed demi-god. He uses others to his gain and just misleads them into thinking they have somthing to gain too(gnolls). He realized he couldnt save his lover, so he decided to raid the cave again out of revenge.I really hate that guy with the gryphon...and I hate that women commander he serves even more. My point is, it doesnt matter if it's AO with that guy, he keeps pushing.
Showing ordinary people and how they are effected in the course of events or using them to evoke emotion is fine, but an insect possibly succeeding in undermining the plans of a god is just annoying. An insignificant character should never be brought into conflict with a great one with the expectation that the insignificant one can triumph.
... Now if the guy was much stronger, more intelligent, more capable, and had decent allies, I would have much less trouble tolerating him.
Besides, while Szass Tam is powerful, I see no reason to promote him to the status of "god" (or, for that matter, to consider that bard an "insect").The point of such novels would be to add to the world, and I could certainly enjoy Szass Tam defeating the Simbul in a complex chess game for example(although defeating the Simbul shouldn't take a complex chess game)
The problem is that there is no surprise at all. Goodies are perpetually victorious. Insects often going up against gods and winning for all practical purposes... Intelligent and competant evil could only be defeated by much more intelligent, and much more competant good because evil does not limit itself like good does and thus can achieve its goals more easily. Characters that beat great evil should be awesome characters, not lameass characters.
... and since it is actually more natural for the intelligent/ruthless to win unless the forces against them are great, I would prefer to see the ruthless/evil win, rather than get the feeling of perversion from reading about some maggot who just got lucky and brought all the schemes of these exponentially more amazing guys crashing down.
...Like in the new novel series focussed on Thay. That bard is beginning to annoy me. That series should be epic, insects like him only lower the quality of the story. If an insect like him is pivotal to stopping the plans of Szass Tam(rather than it being the zulkirs' own work), its just reason for disgust.
I found that I do enjoy when the good guys win, but if they do not win in a logical understandable way then I would have preferred them to lose. I have no problem with the good guys winning but their tends to be a trend where when the good guys win the bad guys come back, and when the bad guys win... The good guys die... and stay dead... For omost any bad character to win would omost certainly kill of one if not many good characters which seem to be in short stock.
I have no problem with evil people winning. I think that in general that makes more sense in some cases becuase they can throw all ethics out the window and exploit people in the most horrible ways and truly gain an advantage that a normal good character would never make use of, so I could easily welcome a powerful character of evil alignment slaughtering practicaly everyone in their path and arise victorious. Although if this did happen it is more than likely than some main goodly figured would be killed off and that would only bring trouble.
I'm basically just saying that these low level characters shouldn't become pivotal elements in these stories. I want these books at least to focus on Szass Tam, his opponents, and all of the intelligence/resources they can bring to bear for their war. Also... where I normally don't find the chosen of Mystra or such interesting, in a struggle between epic forces, them also being an element that destablizes the game(though preferably not much more than that), would be nice.
The Simbul at least has reason to weaken Thay. Larloch may have interests in Szass Tam, other forces may want to take advantage of the situation in Thay, to make money, or weaken Thay.
... basically there's a whole lot that can be done, and I'd rather not see a love story that ends with the vampire girl somehow overcoming her conditioning and joining the bard(and some other forces) to lead an attack on Szass Tam resulting in his defeat.
I've never before read a novel where both sides were evil, and thus the standard good vs. evil rules did not apply. I'd like it to achieve the potential inherent in the idea.
I'm basically just saying that these low level characters shouldn't become pivotal elements in these stories. I want these books at least to focus on Szass Tam, his opponents, and all of the intelligence/resources they can bring to bear for their war.
I confess, I like Erevis Cale's novel for that very reason. Cale goes against an overwhelming force and well.
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Fails utterly to do anything to the man other than take the last lingering remnants of a life already dying out within minutes
I confess, I like Erevis Cale's novel for that very reason. Cale goes against an overwhelming force and well.ShowFails utterly to do anything to the man other than take the last lingering remnants of a life already dying out within minutes
If I were to ever join the FR world, I would be a Paladin...good guys can never lose.
You've quoted a post where multiple examples of FR "good guys" have been shown as only achieving phyrric victories or just losing period. Either you're deliberately refusing to correct an erroneous opinion that you hold or you just missed the point.
You've quoted a post where multiple examples of FR "good guys" have been shown as only achieving phyrric victories or just losing period. Either you're deliberately refusing to correct an erroneous opinion that you hold or you just missed the point.
Good guys don't lose in trilogies. Name one please, where Drizzt/cale/Elimenster ever die? Ever fail to defeat their foe.
Good guys don't lose in trilogies. Name one please, where Drizzt/cale/Elimenster ever die? Ever fail to defeat their foe.
Haven't read all that much about Cale.
Drizzt failed to kill Obould - he lost the first battle outright. In his second duel with Obould the best outcome you can say he achieved was a draw, but given that he failed to accomplish his goal (Obould's death), I'd class it as a loss.
The Waterdeep novel featured Kelemvor's death.
Crucible had Cyric retain his godhood and position (good guys lose).
Wait, I thought you were asking for just one? There are a few too many to choose from, so I took a larger sample.
Haven't read all that much about Cale.
Drizzt failed to kill Obould - he lost the first battle outright. In his second duel with Obould the best outcome you can say he achieved was a draw, but given that he failed to accomplish his goal (Obould's death), I'd class it as a loss.
The Waterdeep novel featured Kelemvor's death.
Crucible had Cyric retain his godhood and position (good guys lose).
Wait, I thought you were asking for just one? There are a few too many to choose from, so I took a larger sample.
Yes, characters lose battles....they lose lives even...but I am generating the fact that they never lose the war. Drizzt lost vs Obuld...did he die though? Did his friends die? Was he enslaved? Drizzt also lost vs Artemis....what happen then? He was healed to go do what ever he pleases to.
By the way rauric...whos the author to A Game of Thrones?
Good guys don't lose in trilogies. Name one please, where Drizzt/cale/Elimenster ever die? Ever fail to defeat their foe.
In "The Silent Blade" Drizzt loses, not exactly to anyone person but with the combined power of kummuriel, Artemis, and Jarlaxle he gets his ass handed to him, he is able to defeat Artemis but when Kummuriel uses his psych powers and the next thing you know Drizzt has a hand half way into his melted chest. Sure Jarlaxle has him revived (which I could easily see him doing anyway) but in the end he lost the crystal shard and didnt really accomplish anything other than Artemis thinking him dead.
In the hunters blade Trilogy, it was more of a stalemate but more in favor of the orcs. Obould is able to claim his own kingdom, he is able to kill Dagnabbit, Dagna, Tarathiel, Withergroo, Sceptrana as well as thousands of battle hammers and atleast 1000 felbar dwarves. All Obould loses is his son, some thousands of orcs easily replaces, some trolls that retreat back into the moors, and I think proffit does but I forget.
He wins, he doesnt exacly crush everyone in his way but he is able to come out the victor in the end.
Yes, characters lose battles....they lose lives even...but I am generating the fact that they never lose the war. Drizzt lost vs Obuld...did he die though? Did his friends die? Was he enslaved? Drizzt also lost vs Artemis....what happen then? He was healed to go do what ever he pleases to.
Obould retained control of a growing, expanding Orc kingdom. Drizzt barely survived the encounter (and the Orc, by contrast, was up and going again with relative ease). And as to his friends dying, they didn't even take part in that particular duel.
Noting repercussions will need to wait, I think, until the next novel is released regarding those actions. I've noticed people around the place making predictions based on the previews that have been released from it, but they're still just predictions. However, at the present time, the indications are that yes, Drizzt and co. lost that particular war.
He's fought Artemis more than once, so I'll guess that you're talking about their duel in Cryshal-Tirith. The fight was written so that Drizzt only won by chance there - Entreri is his fighting equal. It can be attributed to a character shield, but only insofar in the sense that RAS wrote Drizzt losing without dying. And Drizzt still lost in the overall sense, because Jarlaxle kept Crenshinibon. He didn't die (barely) but he lost that "war" as well.
Good guys don't lose in trilogies. Name one please, where Drizzt/cale/Elimenster ever die? Ever fail to defeat their foe.
Rinda!! And Gwydion, from Crucible. Those two did a lot of great things in Crucible, escaping the wrath of Cyric the mad god, and saving entire Faerun and even the gods of a from a lifetime of servitude from Cyric's unholy book. Rinda had her trials, being forced to create the unholy book and was tortured by Cyric. But by Oghman's divine grace, she was able to persevere through it in the end.
If you continue reading after it (Trial of Cyric the Mad) you will read about the poor lady and the honorable champion of Tyr (or was it another god? I don't think it was Tyr) killed by A FAT MERCHANT who could never handle a one on one fight. They all got backstabbed when they weren't listening. - who later turned out to be a chosen of Cyric. The horrible part was how Rinda died...reading it disgusted me. Her throat was slit as she looked for poor wussy bussy Gwydion for company. She was killed at her bedside...figure'd it would've been more evil and disgusting if the merchant raped her before killing her. Plus the big problem was that Rinda got trapped in Kelemvor's Realm. Speaking of Rinda...I wonder what happened to her after Trial of Cyric the Mad. Figure'd she'd be raped by denizens in the dead realm by now...poor lady..NOw there's an unhappy ending for you .
Yes, characters lose battles....they lose lives even...but I am generating the fact that they never lose the war. Drizzt lost vs Obuld...did he die though? Did his friends die? Was he enslaved? Drizzt also lost vs Artemis....what happen then? He was healed to go do what ever he pleases to.
I'd argue evil wins TOO MUCH in Realms books. But yes, do me a favor, when you quote could you actually address my points?
Hunter's Blade + Orc King: The point of Drizzt vs. Obould was he implicitly lost the War. The Orcs gain their kingdom and Drizzt forces Bruenor to capitulate the massive amount of territory to their mortal foes. And no, Drizzt didn't die but the opening of the book states that Bruenor will die horribly because of the peace treaty.
Return of the Archwizards implicitly has Shade now dominate the whole of Anauroch, devastate Cormyr, devastate Everveska, and get away scott free with only the loss of an artifact to show for it.
If you ask, at the end of 3 books, do the good guys end up humiliated and slaughtered even if they acted intelligently?
The Spellfire trilogy: Shandril beats on evil for 2 books then ends up dying by suicide because the enemy finally drives her over the edge because she can't kill enough of them. She also loses her child in the process. Worst ending of all time.
Liriel Baenre series: Liriel's lover ends up dying, Elistraea forsaking her, and hated by everyone in both the Underdark as well as the Surface.
The later two were very dissatisfying endings.
All of you only proved my point. Once again since none of you can grasp this concept. Yes, Drizzt lost a fight...did he die? Will he ever die? No. No "Main character" that has his/her own trilogy will ever be doomed. I will give $100 to anyone if Cale dies in Shadowrealm...because he won't. As I said before..there is a difference between losing a battle, and losing a war.
Well it seems with the prologue and epilogue of the Orc King Obould is the 'good guy' and Drizzt was the 'evil guy'.
Also will Drizzt ever die? Probably not he has been too makes too much money for him to die.
So if you want Drizzt's death we either have to wait for the 'fad' to end(though I really can't think of it has a fad anymore it has been around for a very long time now) or just run a D&D game which it happens in. That has always been part of the beuaty of RPing games anyway is that you get to do what you want to happen.
Well it seems with the prologue and epilogue of the Orc King Obould is the 'good guy' and Drizzt was the 'evil guy'.
Also will Drizzt ever die? Probably not he has been too makes too much money for him to die.
So if you want Drizzt's death we either have to wait for the 'fad' to end(though I really can't think of it has a fad anymore it has been around for a very long time now) or just run a D&D game which it happens in. That has always been part of the beuaty of RPing games anyway is that you get to do what you want to happen.
Let me restate that...has ANY main character with thier own set of novels devoted to them ever died?
Let me restate that...has ANY main character with thier own set of novels devoted to them ever died?
Yes as been point out before Shandril of the Spellfire trilogy.
As others have.
Why do you crave good guy's death so much?
All of you only proved my point. Once again since none of you can grasp this concept. Yes, Drizzt lost a fight...did he die? Will he ever die? No. No "Main character" that has his/her own trilogy will ever be doomed. I will give $100 to anyone if Cale dies in Shadowrealm...because he won't. As I said before..there is a difference between losing a battle, and losing a war.
Shandril Sheshair.
Dead.
Dude, did you read my post or are you just not caring?
Also, I give even odds that Erevis will come to a bad end, I just hope it's not the case.
I'd argue evil wins TOO MUCH in Realms books. But yes, do me a favor, when you quote could you actually address my points?
Hunter's Blade + Orc King: The point of Drizzt vs. Obould was he implicitly lost the War. The Orcs gain their kingdom and Drizzt forces Bruenor to capitulate the massive amount of territory to their mortal foes. And no, Drizzt didn't die but the opening of the book states that Bruenor will die horribly because of the peace treaty.
I'm sorry to say that that was not a victory by an evil force. Obould is a visionary, and basically good guy trying to bring reform to his people... and succeeding(especially if you consider the Orc King I think).
Defeating Obould would have been an act of evil(not that Drizzt would necessarily know that).
Return of the Archwizards implicitly has Shade now dominate the whole of Anauroch, devastate Cormyr, devastate Everveska, and get away scott free with only the loss of an artifact to show for it.
If you ask, at the end of 3 books, do the good guys end up humiliated and slaughtered even if they acted intelligently?
Against the Shades these forces should have been crushed out of existence. They came out unreasonably well from the whole situation.
An insect like sorceror did foil Telamont's plans and worse actually almost defeated him in a direct conflict, where the Chosen had effectively failed. That was just incredibly lame <-- Notice that it is things like this that really annoy me. If the Chosen had won, that would have been believable at least(although risking destroying the world as Telamont suggested was possible, would have been a stupid thing to try). The Shade mythallar damaged by a mere giant was also a travesty. He should've just been vaporized from touching it.
Vandergahast casually coming up with a way to overcome Shades and Shadow-magic wasn't really funny either.
The Spellfire trilogy: Shandril beats on evil for 2 books then ends up dying by suicide because the enemy finally drives her over the edge because she can't kill enough of them. She also loses her child in the process. Worst ending of all time.
This one I haven't read. Sounds sad.
The kid should have retreated.
Although I admit to finding stupidity less annoying in people who aren't supposed to be awesomely intelligent.
Liriel Baenre series: Liriel's lover ends up dying, Elistraea forsaking her, and hated by everyone in both the Underdark as well as the Surface.
Fyodor dying was sad, but good in that it improved the story itself. Liriel did win however, and essentially overcame Lloth's control over her... and last I recall Liriel was doing well.
War of the spider queen...
Well... Halistra betrayed by Elistraee was kinda odd.
There I think that the story might actually have been better if Halistra actually had killed Lloth.
For the most part though, the protagonists of that story were basically evil, and Lloth's people did take a decent hit overall I think, forcing old lady chaos to declare a stop to the fighting between the drow.
---
Perhaps my only point is that things should be believeable. Great beings should not be overcome by weak beings. Its dissatisfying.
Yes as been point out before Shandril of the Spellfire trilogy.
As others have.
Why do you crave good guy's death so much?
Because it is rare.
This one I haven't read. Sounds sad.
The kid should have retreated.
Manshoon basically told her that he wouldn't waste his strongest soldiers against her, he'd instead send neverending hordes of assassins to harry her forever.
But yes, I wasn't too fond of the series of ROTA.
I found that I do enjoy when the good guys win, but if they do not win in a logical understandable way then I would have preferred them to lose.
That's what it comes down to for me--just because I want "the good guys" to win doesn't mean I want them to win through sheer dumb luck, a deus ex machina, or because the villain just happened to be incredibly stupid.
@Rinonalyrna Fathomlin: Obviously I was just exaggerating to make a point.
I'm basically just saying that these low level characters shouldn't become pivotal elements in these stories.
That's where you and I disagree, I think. When I read a novel, I try not to think "levels", I just think about "characters". If a "low-level" character is a good character, why not read about him? Of course, if you dislike a character (and I've been there many times over, myself), I can totally understand wanting him scoured from the story.
...we know Lolth will survive the events of Lady Penitant.
We don't, because we have no idea in what year (in the setting) the final book of that trilogy will end.
Liriel Baenre series: Liriel's lover ends up dying, Elistraea forsaking her, and hated by everyone in both the Underdark as well as the Surface.
Eilistraee didn't necessarily forsake Liriel. Shakti tells Liriel that she did...but Shakti was also Liriel's worst enemy and had no reason not to tell her such a thing. There's no reason to take what Shakti said as truth.
To some people, losing means dying.
How gauche, uncultured, immature, and frankly, boring.
I'm sorry to say that that was not a victory by an evil force. Obould is a visionary, and basically good guy trying to bring reform to his people... and succeeding(especially if you consider the Orc King I think).
Obould may be a visionary, but I'm more than halfway through The Orc King, and I really wouldn't call him "a good guy". Good for his people, perhaps (not that I like the direction his plot has taken), but not good-hearted by any measure of the word.
Obould may be a visionary, but I'm more than halfway through The Orc King, and I really wouldn't call him "a good guy". Good for his people, perhaps (not that I like the direction his plot has taken), but not good-hearted by any measure of the word.
I agree, Obould is evil. He engaged in a war of conquest, slaughter, and plunder solely to enrich himself as well as the orcs. He's a monster who deserves to die and every inch the orcs have taken should be returned with Orc heads strewn across the snow to pay back the merciless pillage they engaged in to take it.
But....there's no way to do that without annihilating thousands.
As I said before..there is a difference between losing a battle, and losing a war
And Drizzt lost both. He was defeated by Obould and didn't succeed in stopping Obould from creating his kingdom.
I'm sorry to say that that was not a victory by an evil force. Obould is a visionary, and basically good guy trying to bring reform to his people... and succeeding(especially if you consider the Orc King I think).
His alignment is evil, IIRC. That makes killing him a good act, unless you want to get into one of those tiresome debates on relativistic morality.
Vandergahast casually coming up with a way to overcome Shades and Shadow-magic wasn't really funny either.
As opposed to the "OMG shadow magic is teh cool and powerful and awesome!!11" perspective, which seemed to permeate every other aspect of the trilogy?
Let me restate that...has ANY main character with thier own set of novels devoted to them ever died?
I thought I've already posted it to you that some of them did die.
Rinda
Gwydion
Shandril
Blackstaff
Sir Paramore (although he never was a good guy)
BTW: I'm still wondering what happened to Rinda after the Trial of Cyric the Mad. Is she still trapped in the dead realm?
Daryth of Calimshan
Lander(I think that was his name from the 1st harper novel)
And the entire(except for the dwarf but I think he gets killed later) adventuring party Shandril first joined.
While true their campanions went on to win the day...they definitly paid for it in blood.
And Shandril's adventuring party just lost. No one that I can recall went back there to clear out that area...
When people have faced countless obstacles to become great, they shouldn't be at the level that some random nobody can stand in their way.
@Alleran: Do you see Obould trying to conquer the world or cause needless death in general? Do you see him fighting for a better future for his people(much like Bruenor for example)?
As for the Shades, if a functioning Netherese enclave comes in, wizards of Toril who tend to consider Netherese magical trash, artifacts should bow their heads in worship. Descendents of Netheril with all that magical knowledge, and having lived in a hostile environment for millenia... they have reason to be terrifying.
(not that they really are, but that's how they've been written, and that's what I'm objecting to... random kid sorceror almost beating Telamont where the Chosen could not is just an example of the lame writing involved)
Obould's alignment may be evil. But that doesn't mean killing him is an act of goodness. If Drizzt had killed Obould he could've ruined the ONLY CHANCE of bringing peace between the orcs and dwarves. Morality doesn't always go straight, you have to USE YOUR BRAIN sometimes instead of pulling that trigger directly into a man's fact. And people say, "Why not just kill the orcs directly and get it over with." Ya!! If they could do that.
And that's why Forensic Science is a hard subject, and that's why liutenants will be captains, and rough grunts will be rough grunts.
Extinction Beta: I suggest you read Crucible and Trial of Cyric the Mad. Trial of Cyric the Mad will make you sick for reading it. Rinda was a poor soul, and up till now I'm still wondering what happened to her. Her death never accomplished anything, just herself getting lost AND SUFFERING BADLY in the deadrealm (away from the scrying of the gods). Don't you understand, the heroine cannot be saved by her goddess Oghma, since she has an antigodscrying magic on her.
Obould IS fighting for a better future for his people. Would you like a quote from the book itself on that? Or would you like multiple quotes from the book on it?
Obould's alignment may be evil. But that doesn't mean killing him is an act of goodness. If Drizzt had killed Obould he could've ruined the ONLY CHANCE of bringing peace between the orcs and dwarves. Morality doesn't always go straight, you have to USE YOUR BRAIN sometimes instead of pulling that trigger directly into a man's fact. And people say, "Why not just kill the orcs directly and get it over with." Ya!! If they could do that.
And that's why Forensic Science is a hard subject, and that's why liutenants will be captains, and rough grunts will be rough grunts.
Personally, I think that if Drizzt had succeeded in killing Obould, the orcs would have fractured and fallen to infighting, as they commonly do. Without the glue that is Obould, the dwarves would have emerged victorious.
But I think it made for a much better story with Drizzt failing to kill Obould. Lets people know that even though Drizzt is very very good, he's not perfect.
@Alleran: Do you see Obould trying to conquer the world or cause needless death in general? Do you see him fighting for a better future for his people(much like Bruenor for example)?
Yes to the first (both aspects of the question), with the caveat that it's not the whole world he wants, just the North and most people in it bowing to him, and yes to the second. However, ideals aside, it's methods that I disagree with. "Ends justify the means" shouldn't be worth it.
As for the Shades, if a functioning Netherese enclave comes in, wizards of Toril who tend to consider Netherese magical trash, artifacts should bow their heads in worship. Descendents of Netheril with all that magical knowledge, and having lived in a hostile environment for millenia... they have reason to be terrifying.
It's not the Netherese in particular that I objected to, it's how the Shadow Weave is implied to be so superior to the regular Weave, as well as a couple of other factors. Yes, the Netherese play a part (Melegaunt being able to so easily trump Elminster = wtf?), but they're not the only problem. Eh, I guess that I just dislike the ROTA trilogy in general.
Obould IS fighting for a better future for his people. Would you like a quote from the book itself on that? Or would you like multiple quotes from the book on it?
His better future is like if someone went to my family and murdered it so he could take my stuff and feed his. Yes, it's understandable, but I wouldn't blame anyone if they just shot him in the head with an arrow. The ORCS don't want a peaceful kingdom and Obould is forcing it on them. LET THEM live in eternal war if they want it!
Obould wants to build an Orc Kingdom. He chose to do that on the backs of human corpses.
Don't you understand, the heroine cannot be saved by her goddess Oghma, since she has an antigodscrying magic on her.
The implications are Kelemvor found her fairly easilly and returned her to Oghma. Not that she's eternally consigned to Damnation. The gods aren't helpless without the Weave.
His better future is like if someone went to my family and murdered it so he could take my stuff and feed his. Yes, it's understandable, but I wouldn't blame anyone if they just shot him in the head with an arrow. The ORCS don't want a peaceful kingdom and Obould is forcing it on them. LET THEM live in eternal war if they want it!
Obould wants to build an Orc Kingdom. He chose to do that on the backs of human corpses..
Yes. And so did Bruenor, on the backs of Duergar corpses.
Plus I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I wouldn't blame Obould for hating the humans, elves and dwarves so much, considering the fact that their gods denied Gruumsh land. And they had to live in hell-holes being WAR bound creatures. The big reason why Gruumsh wars over the other races is because of the land denial anyway. His anger for the other gods was justifiable even though he was evil....He's only trying to take back the land that should've belonged to him.
The implications are Kelemvor found her fairly easilly and returned her to Oghma. Not that she's eternally consigned to Damnation. The gods aren't helpless without the Weave.
How did he find her? I'm just being curious here...maybe I skipped a part in the book. Didn't Rinda have a buff on her that denies the gods and the Weave scrying over her?
Yes. And so did Bruenor, on the backs of Duergar corpses.
Ironically, that murdered his forefathers and stole his homeland.
Plus I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
I do, I loathe the fact so much of human history is built on the successes of sick minds like Oboulds.
I wouldn't blame Obould for hating the humans, elves and dwarves so much, considering the fact that their gods denied Gruumsh land.
A story, assuming you believe the CE liar (I *ALWAYS* had one eye) that has nothing to do with Faerun since they invaded from another planet.
How did he find her? I'm just being curious here...maybe I skipped a part in the book. Didn't Rinda have a buff on her that denies the gods and the Weave scrying over her?
His Seraph possessed ridiculous abilities to cover ground and territory within seconds as part of his power, Kelemvor's Seraph wouldn't have any problem finding her.
Oghma pretty much trusted Kel would be able to find her. I think there was an offhand reference he did find her too, I forget where it was.
The side of good winning would drive every single orc from their makeshift homes, burn them down, slay an Orc for every innocent peasant hewn or butchered for their sick amusement, and then proceed to stamp Obould's head on a pike as a warning to the next 100 generations of Orc conquerors that WAR WILL NOT GET YOU CIVILIZATION.
Drizzt, unfortunately, knows that it frequently DOES and they can't win the battle anyway. Evil triumphs.
All I hope is that Obould gets judged Faithless and False so he can spend the rest of eternity screamingly crushed under blocks for the murders he committed.
Drizzt recognizes they lost.
How did he find her? I'm just being curious here...maybe I skipped a part in the book. Didn't Rinda have a buff on her that denies the gods and the Weave scrying over her?
Yes, she did... But Kelemvor isn't dumb, like most people assume he is, and he sent Gwydion to find her. They never said in the novel that he succeeded, but I think it's a good bet that he did... Still, the "anti-god-scrying" spell is still in effect, so she lives in Oghma's realm without being able to interact with her god. (In order to remove the spell thingy, they need to find her actual corpse and remove the amulet - though I'm really not sure how that works... more novel inconsistencies.)
It had nothing to do with his Seraph. (If you want exact page number - it's Chapter 12, page 125)
With all due respect. I think it was a fairly good ending to the story.
Drizzt recognizes they lost.
I'm talking about the plot as a whole, and the ideas put forth in the book, not just the ending.
And I'm talking about some of the remarks that have been posted in this thread (not necessarily by you though). Politically correct nonsense.
I'm talking about the plot as a whole, and the ideas put forth in the book, not just the ending.
And I'm talking about some of the remarks that have been posted in this thread (not necessarily by you though). Politically correct nonsense.
I confess that the "Peace Loving Orcs" and "Cult of Gruumsh" require some pretty ridiculous suspension of disbelief. Overall, I very much liked the entirety of the plot and without the Prologue and Epilogue, it's a very well done storyline.
Different strokes.
I do agree, however, that "Orcs are just guys looking for a fair shake" is like suggesting that one should realize that Ghenghis Khan's Mogul hordes are really just in need of some understanding.
I do agree, however, that "Orcs are just guys looking for a fair shake" is like suggesting that one should realize that Ghenghis Khan's Mogul hordes are really just in need of some understanding.
Yes, exactly, which is why I can only call BS on the whole thing.
I confess that the "Peace Loving Orcs" and "Cult of Gruumsh" require some pretty ridiculous suspension of disbelief. Overall, I very much liked the entirety of the plot and without the Prologue and Epilogue, it's a very well done storyline.
The fact that it is a good story doesn't not mean it is a good FR story. Personaly building a orc kingdom would be better some where else(like Thesk) Or even a good orc kingdom is possible(the odonti) without them crapping on the history of the Realms. Heck if they did one of the above I would be appaulding this part atleast. That is the problem though is that they can't be bother it seems to tell a good FR story.
I do agree, however, that "Orcs are just guys looking for a fair shake" is like suggesting that one should realize that Ghenghis Khan's Mogul hordes are really just in need of some understanding.
Also the Orcs have a huge amount of land to choose from a large amount of wilderness. Heck they could build a kingdom in the mountains.
I think, overall, it's a good Realms story. However, in my campaign, Obould is still a villain and a threat to the Silver Marches. He's just playing the Peace Game to consolidate his gains.
You see in the FRCS Obould is stated out. So I ran a adventure for a group of PCs that beat his army and killed him(and no they took steps to make sure he can't come back). The orcs are scattered to the four winds.
Then Salvatore starting writing him(actualy it was during the campaign) and I was worry that oh crap they goes the novelist running roughshod over my adventure again. Then I appaulded Mr Salvatore for not having Drizzt do the jobs of the PCs by having Drizzt win. Now unfortunaly the Orc King reveals that he didn't do it for the RP aspect but more to tell more stories of Obould. Obould had plot armor.
Now sure the Orc Kingdom won't happen there in the North(though I am thinking it is time the Odonti get a small kingdom in the Ride). So tell me why should I buy any new North supplements( or anyone who already had a party deal with Obould) that details a North that doesn't actualy have anything worth it in it. I mean how can these sweeping changes be good for bussiness. Right now I am looking at it and thinking to myself it is all so worthless to me. As I am sure lots of people are doing right now.
Now sure the Orc Kingdom won't happen there in the North(though I am thinking it is time the Odonti get a small kingdom in the Ride). So tell me why should I buy any new North supplements( or anyone who already had a party deal with Obould) that details a North that doesn't actualy have anything worth it in it. I mean how can these sweeping changes be good for bussiness. Right now I am looking at it and thinking to myself it is all so worthless to me. As I am sure lots of people are doing right now.
I own copies of Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, Ravenloft Gazeteers, and quite a few Planescape supplements John_Kretzer. Do you know what? My players loathe Ravenloft, wouldn't touch Planescape with a ten foot poll, and have no interest in playing anything related to Greyhawk.
Overall, my point is that there might be well stuff to salvage or work from should you want to do it. In the case of this, the Silver Marchs where Obould and his kind are driven to the four winds might be the start of a new campaign in another direction with another threat or perhaps a good;y kingdom working.
Or maybe there's some nifty prestige classes or subplots otherwise.
You see in the FRCS Obould is stated out. So I ran a adventure for a group of PCs that beat his army and killed him(and no they took steps to make sure he can't come back). The orcs are scattered to the four winds.
Then Salvatore starting writing him(actualy it was during the campaign) and I was worry that oh crap they goes the novelist running roughshod over my adventure again. Then I appaulded Mr Salvatore for not having Drizzt do the jobs of the PCs by having Drizzt win. Now unfortunaly the Orc King reveals that he didn't do it for the RP aspect but more to tell more stories of Obould. Obould had plot armor.
Now sure the Orc Kingdom won't happen there in the North(though I am thinking it is time the Odonti get a small kingdom in the Ride). So tell me why should I buy any new North supplements( or anyone who already had a party deal with Obould) that details a North that doesn't actualy have anything worth it in it. I mean how can these sweeping changes be good for bussiness. Right now I am looking at it and thinking to myself it is all so worthless to me. As I am sure lots of people are doing right now.
You can still purchese other north books... you take what you want out of it... you change it up so it fits YOUR world... like you DID with Obould and his kingdom... YOU didn't accept the changes and delt with it... thats applaudable on your part... but you still seem to be worried about NPC's overshadowing your groups PC's and you need to stop that... its the tradgic end to a DM when he/she lets an NPC overshadow the PC's story.
You can still purchese other north books... you take what you want out of it... you change it up so it fits YOUR world... like you DID with Obould and his kingdom... YOU didn't accept the changes and delt with it... thats applaudable on your part... but you still seem to be worried about NPC's overshadowing your groups PC's and you need to stop that... its the tradgic end to a DM when he/she lets an NPC overshadow the PC's story.
Obould never had his kingdom in my game as the PC beat him back. In any soucebook on the North I get from now till the ends of day though will be very minorly of use(as atleast one chapter will be on the Orc Kingdom and other places in the book will have it's influence hevily though out.) Also I see them simplfying things to the point that they will be very few subplots or other major plots in a region(I.E. The North will be about the Orc Kingdom) so I am questioning these changes as being smart because they seem to be more towards limiting then expanding.
Now on to the subject of NPCs overshadowing the PCs(which I don't think you get my p.o.v.)...in my opinion not only will it happen but in a good campaign it is almost a certainity that it will happen. Evil NPCs for one start out overshadowing the PCs by just the fact that they are of a higher level. Which makes sense...but what doesn't make any senses why does evil NPC allow the PCs to foil his plots when he can just crush them? I mean sure he might not rerspond immediately but around 6th level why wopuldn't he? Why let them build in power so it is a fair fight? High level Good NPCs provides the answear as to why the BBEG doesn't just crush the PCs at low levels.
The campign should be focused on the PCs but the world should have other things happening that minorly relate to the PCs also. It actualy allows for a more dynmatic and living campaign world.
Plus I don't think it's possible that Obould is using the peace issue for something else (that he has a hidden agenda). Dark Arrow has stood for hundreds of years, having peace relations with other goodly races. He has died, and his children after him. If his secret desires where for himself only, then he would've shown his true colors soon. But he stood strong despite the unrest. Do you realize how hard it is to change your people. One of the reasons why Drizzt didn't kill Obould is because HE CONSIDERED HIM AS HIS EQUAL. More equal than Entreri. This is because they are similar not JUST IN FIGHTING but also in their morality. Try to imagine Drizzt Do Urden being the ruler of Menzoberanzan, wouldn't he do what Obould did? Entreri and Drizzt are just equal in the fighting finesse. Drizzt came from an evil race who decided to make a difference, so did Obould.
Thus I think this is why Obould is a more formidable rival than Entreri, fighting power are not the only things that matters in rivalry....and they certainly are not the most important.
Is it really hard for the orcs to become that great, and peace loving? You forget that Obould is not the only great orc in the Realms.
Anybody ever heard of General Vrakk...He was a hero in the Crusades and he helped Rinda escape Zhentil Keep. I admire his intelligence (I think he is more intelligent than Obould), for he is even able to outsmart a god. I like his lines about considering himself a monster too. And the only reason why he helped in bringing down Zhentil Keep was because he wanted his people to survive.
What about General Vorr? He was a terror to the Sun Elves.
This is because they are similar not JUST IN FIGHTING but also in their morality.
That's just flat out wrong. Also, 100 years from now. Bruenor Battlehammer is dead and it's quite explicitly implied to be at the hands of Orcs. It seems fairly clear that Obould the Second and possibly 3rd will prove to be some of the greatest dangers in the Silver Marches.
Obould tried to make the territory he stole ORC territory. That his descendents may not be evil doesn't change that my PCs will ring their blades in the air for as long as it takes to make Orcs have nightmares about them for generations to come.
And I encourage the other players to think about "at what point do we tolerate evil enough that good may come from it"?
And let the relativistic morality debate begin.
Yes to the first (both aspects of the question), with the caveat that it's not the whole world he wants, just the North and most people in it bowing to him, and yes to the second. However, ideals aside, it's methods that I disagree with. "Ends justify the means" shouldn't be worth it.
Well letting your people continue to suffer isn't really a pleasant choice either. And one could say that they have been denied a lot of chances.
... basically i'd just say that the good and evil isn't really all that clear in this situation. One could just choose what one believes to be the lesser evil.
It's not the Netherese in particular that I objected to, it's how the Shadow Weave is implied to be so superior to the regular Weave, as well as a couple of other factors. Yes, the Netherese play a part (Melegaunt being able to so easily trump Elminster = wtf?), but they're not the only problem. Eh, I guess that I just dislike the ROTA trilogy in general.
Where we may have slightly different reasons for disliking RotA. I completely agree that it was defective.
As for Melegaunt(Shadow magic user) trumping Elminster though... technically we have a case in one of Ed's stories, of an avatar of Mystra being destroyed by an attack from an unknown, possibly Shadow-magic source.
The only thing I'd really say about this is that the Shades prepared for a long time before they came. Being prepared and having surprise on your side does count for a lot in battle. Normally I would think that developing counters to what the Shades can do should take hundreds of years if you have suitable research teams.
Well letting your people continue to suffer isn't really a pleasant choice either. And one could say that they have been denied a lot of chances.
... basically i'd just say that the good and evil isn't really all that clear in this situation. One could just choose what one believes to be the lesser evil.
Obould is acting like most real world conquerors have done. The Huns, Ghenghis, Goths, and Vandals recognized that they are living in a state that is inferior to civilized people but they have a military advantage.
Obould is evil in the sense that he's a ruthless murderer. He'll kill women, children, and unarmed men in order to get what he wants. What he wants is also something he'll get through military force.
However, he's correct in the fact that the Orcs as a people (like most military cultures) wouldn't follow him if he tried to set up a Orc Empire built solely on trade and diplomacy. In the real world, most cultures begin by establishing a slice of the pie that you take by force.
In 400 years, Obould's LG descendents might well look back on his deeds the same way that British look back on William the Conqueror or the Saxons that took away the Celt's territory.
I.e. We're the Descendents of some ruthless people but what we have today is the result of that.
HOWEVER, there's absolutelty no moral imperiative to say that the Celts, Saxons, or modern day Silver Marches folk should just roll over and take it. Obould is really a lot like the Tuigan Horde if it had succeeded (I forget-did they want to keep any territory they conquered?)
That's just flat out wrong. Also, 100 years from now. Bruenor Battlehammer is dead and it's quite explicitly implied to be at the hands of Orcs. It seems fairly clear that Obould the Second and possibly 3rd will prove to be some of the greatest dangers in the Silver Marches.
Obould has really made a name for himself right now. Considering the fact that the rise of his empire was not stopped by Drizzt or Bruenor it makes him a more formidable opponent than Errtu or the Drow at Menzo. I just want to point out again about the quote before. Power is not the only factor in winning a war, and it certainly isn't the greatest factor. Let's say....Obould has more luck than Errtu or the drow. Thus making him to be the biggest threat in Drizzt's Legend ever.
And I encourage the other players to think about "at what point do we tolerate evil enough that good may come from it"?
Sometimes we tolerate evil. Like what I said about Obould before, like Ao tolerating Cyric to run havoc among the gods for the good of the Faerun, like Mystra sparing the Srinshee from her plot to kill Elminster..etc.
Well letting your people continue to suffer isn't really a pleasant choice either. And one could say that they have been denied a lot of chances.
... basically i'd just say that the good and evil isn't really all that clear in this situation. One could just choose what one believes to be the lesser evil.
I'm not particularly interested in debating relativistic morality, as I thought I kind of indicated above. The topic may or may not have merit.
As for Melegaunt(Shadow magic user) trumping Elminster though... technically we have a case in one of Ed's stories, of an avatar of Mystra being destroyed by an attack from an unknown, possibly Shadow-magic source.
Which story was that? And if it wasn't clearly identified as the Shadow Weave, I'm not particularly certain that I'll trust it. However, the trumping of Elminster went, IMO, much further than just beating him. El's a 29th level Wizard, Melegaunt is, what, 18th or 19th? Yet El had absolutely nothing on Melegaunt at all. It just makes no sense to me. Then again, as you noted, most of ROTA is defective in the first place.
The only thing I'd really say about this is that the Shades prepared for a long time before they came. Being prepared and having surprise on your side does count for a lot in battle. Normally I would think that developing counters to what the Shades can do should take hundreds of years if you have suitable research teams.
I find it hard to believe that Shadow Magic didn't exist and hadn't ever come to the notice of anybody before the return of Shade. Returning increased the awareness of it, but it should still have been known prior to that. Of course, this is just my opinion on the matter.
Plus I don't think it's possible that Obould is using the peace issue for something else (that he has a hidden agenda). Dark Arrow has stood for hundreds of years, having peace relations with other goodly races. He has died, and his children after him. If his secret desires where for himself only, then he would've shown his true colors soon.
Obould does show his true colors in the novel. In one chapter (later half of the book), it is made clear that Obould would love to conquer the Silver Marches for himself--it's just that he's smart enough to know that such an endeavor would be practically impossible.
Obould is motivated only by sheer pragmatism, not morality. And no, I don't agree with you that Bruenor and his dwarves are "just as bad" as Obould and his orcs.
They attacked first.
If they had not attacked in the first place they could have expanded and built defenses where the dawrves would have to be insane to attack the orcs, but Obould wanted to conquer not just scrape together some land, he could have done that in any vacant area with an army of orcs behind him.
The main reason why Obould succeded was becuase he basicaly had the whole orc population of the north marching with him, if all the humans or dwarves or elves decided to match that with the combined power of their race any of the 3 races could have most likely repelled Obould, but that was not a sacrifice any of the races wanted to make.
Obould won becuase the people let him win, if they really really wanted to the silver marches could have beat Obould to a pulp, the only thing that kept them from doing that was becuase it was going to be a bloody war where peopel would die (No duhh) So they basicaly said screw it keep your land slapping you around would have been to much of a chore.
The dwarves and orcs are completely different. If the orcs wanted their own land they could have had it, they could have biult up and practicaly controlled the mountains or could have creeped out slowly from the mountains biulding borders and defending instead of creeping up on mitheral halls ass.
If they had not attacked in the first place they could have expanded and built defenses where the dawrves would have to be insane to attack the orcs, but Obould wanted to conquer not just scrape together some land, he could have done that in any vacant area with an army of orcs behind him.
The main reason why Obould succeded was becuase he basicaly had the whole orc population of the north marching with him, if all the humans or dwarves or elves decided to match that with the combined power of their race any of the 3 races could have most likely repelled Obould, but that was not a sacrifice any of the races wanted to make.
Obould won becuase the people let him win, if they really really wanted to the silver marches could have beat Obould to a pulp, the only thing that kept them from doing that was becuase it was going to be a bloody war where peopel would die (No duhh) So they basicaly said screw it keep your land slapping you around would have been to much of a chore.
One could almost compare it with Chamberlain's policy of appeasement with Germany before WW2. What is that Churchill said back then something to the effect that We had a choice between honor and peace we choose peace now we'll have war. Yeah I know that isn't exactly what he said hence the lack of quotes.
In any case, making peace with Obould at that point was the intelligent and right thing to do. They had seen enough to conclude that Obould did want to stop fighting and start building, and they had guts enough to let him, and work for the best. The results, as shown in the prologue of the book, were good, or at least better than what used to be.
The fact that the orcs attacked first was irrelevant by that point. There were two armies, and they were at a stalemate. Army A has the choice between driving Army B back into B's old territory at the cost of many of A's lives, or making peace with Army B so that Army B can build the civilization it so obviously wants. This was not a case of good versus evil anymore; it was a case of dwarf versus orc, and nothing more. The circumstances were bloody and not at all favorable, but such is war, and such is life.
Furthermore, Alustriel betrayed the Silver marches by letting Bruenor down.
At the end of the Two Swords when the dwarves tried to get out of Mithril Hall by river, Bruenor was already done for. If it wasn't for the elves helping them theyd've been pawned to a pulp.
I don't think Alustriel let Bruenor down. She was intelligent enough to avoid the bloodshed WHICH DWARVES LOVE SO MUCH (As proof to this is Bruenor insisting on retaking their stolen land, when he knew the dwarves and orcs could still live in truce). True, if she helped, the dwarves could've won. But there is a price to pay for that matter.
The problem is that Bruenor fails to consider THE ORCS POINT OF VIEW (Not that it matters since most races consider orcs as nothing more than STUPID, IDIOTIC bloodthirsty monsters and pigs...well at the coming of Obould, they were proven wrong). Orcs, are driven by the legend (which could be true) about the gods taking away the light from them.
There is nothing wrong about Bruenor trying to retake his land, in fact it is a justifiable thing. The only problem I have is that, most people here considered Alustrield not backing Bruenor up as letting him down. No, Alustriel has her reasons, not just for the safety of the Mithril hall clan, but for the good of all goodly folks.
True, though arguably Bruenor had every right to think that the better future of the Silver Marches was to drive the Orcs away and end their threat.
That's one of the biggest reasons why war breaks out. LACK OF TRUST!
Problem is that most races consider the orcs as nothing more than monsters and pigs that are idiots and stupid. If you try to look at thins at the orcs perspective you'll notice that orcs are also hurt when they are driven to damnation....There are lots of orc tribes in Faerun that have begun to live peacefully with goodly races (because the goodly races HAD TRUST that they could change).
I could remember General Vrakk's famous line at the fall of Zhentil Keep. "If they treat us like monsters!! Then we be monsters!"
Not that it matters since most races consider orcs as nothing more than STUPID, IDIOTIC bloodthirsty monsters and pigs...
With good reason in general. Exceptions don't prove the rule.
With good reason in general. Exceptions don't prove the rule.
I think that was too shallow. Why doesn't exceptions prove the rule BTW?
Because by their nature they are exceptional, and outside of the norm... what exceptional individuals or groups do (or don't do for that matter) does nothing to change what the rest of the race is like. Unless they work to change the entire race, the actions of the exceptional make little to no difference to the race as a whole.
That just about sums it up.
That's one of the biggest reasons why war breaks out. LACK OF TRUST!
Well, in this case war broke out because Obould decided he wanted to conquer some land. And according to the novel, he still would love to conquer land--he is only restraining himself because he is smart enough to know he would not be successful, and he'd risk losing what he has now.
As far as the "orcs are people too" line of reasoning goes--what's interesting is that the author himself doesn't always consider the orcs to be people. Whenever a fight involving orcs breaks out in the novel (that doesn't involve trying to make a plot point), the orcs become dehumanized and referred to with the pronoun "it".
The thing about exceptions, though, is that they do prove the potential to break free of that rule. Drizzt Do'Urden is, or was, the exception to prove the rule, but he showed that there was potential for good in drow. (Zaknafein likewise showed such potential, but not as much.) And what do we have now? The followers of Ellistrae. Tos'un Armgo. And Ao knows what else...
Obould is a similar, if more pragmatic, case. He proves that there is potential for intelligence in the orc race. Orcs aren't stupid for genetic reasons, I guess, but because of their environments. (You don't get much schooling in present orc culture, I would imagine.) Obould may be the exception that proves the rule, but he's also the exception that will eventually erase the rule from the rulebook.
Obould only proved that he had restraint and an intelligence above the low bar set for orcs. One reason why Obould sticks out so much when it comes to intelligence is becuase the orc average is relatively low compared to any of the other popular races, Obould himself may be smart but truly he didnt prove to be a genius, throwing his orcs into battle in an obviously rigged field losing orcs 20/1, he abused the giants on and wasted even more blood on a stupid BS attack on the dwarves hall which proved even more fruitless. He won some land at terrible costs but then his vision of an orc kingdom goes crashing down on his head as his own stupid orcs start butchering each other, better for his cause that they butcher dwarves and humans than each other.
If I where the Humans or Dwarves or Elves I wouldnt want an Orc Kingdom "Festering" on my front door. You know those problems that if you leave them there for a while it isnt so bad but if you leave it to long it starts causing some serious damage, like a BB stuck in your arm or a festering zit or splinter, you leave it in too long and you start to get some problems, usually an infection. Taking it out will hurt but if you let it get infected then it hurts a hell of a lot more. I would see the peace with the orcs as the simple short sighted easy way out. You might think "what could be so short sighted about peace" but if you are letting a potential dangerous race of orcs terribly reknown for their warlike behavior and stupid nature you might just want to drive them away before they become any more powerful.
Imagine if say 20,000 darkeleves just decided to pop up on the surface, basicaly all of Menzoberranzan moves out of the Underdark and decides that they would rather bask under the sun, the next thing you know every light elf in the north woudl be rallying their friends to come stomp on them before they cuase some damage. Odds are you would see a crap load of dwarves and humans.
So first off you have a slightly stupid race/culture, that gets mixed with a religious structure that actively promotes unquestioning savagery and barbarism, killing off those neighbors who could potentially help you and whom you could learn from, as well as promoting a system of societal attrition to cull the weak, which happily tosses the elderly who've actually managed to learn a few things into some bonfire fed by the ambition of the youth... and you expect civilation to thrive there? They have no system of passing on knowledge to later generations beyond the most basic levels, and essentially are forced into a system where they much constantly reinvent the wheel, so to speak, and never really get beyond a certain point. Sure parts of the portrayal are exaggerated, but not really all that far off either.
To be honest, I've often thought the stupidity of orcs has long been exaggerated, since the average INT stat of an orc (8) is only two points lower than the average INT stat of a human (10). But you'd think there was a 10 point difference going by how orcs are portrayed.
Well if we go with 10 Intelligence = 100 IQ. 80 Intelligence Orcs do make a rather big difference.
Of course, one can assume that just like humans, Orcs have a lot of smarter members too
Well if we go with 10 Intelligence = 100 IQ. 80 Intelligence Orcs do make a rather big difference.
I'm fairly certain that contrary to popular belief, the INT stat is not measured that way.
But I agree that there are smart orcs out there, and Obould wasn't the first smart orc ever (heck, if you believe the plot of The Orc King, there were smart, civilized orcs in the past).
That being said, civilized orcs still exist. They worship Eldath and are NG. ;)
That being said, civilized orcs still exist. They worship Eldath and are NG. ;)
Are they led by orc philosopher-wizards, too?
That being said, civilized orcs still exist. They worship Eldath and are NG. ;)
Yeah but they can't highlight those orcs though into having their own kingdom. Because they are not noble savage orcs that are victimized by other races and corrupted by a dark god(re WoW orcs). No no we can't be orginal here that make things too complex.
Sigh I liked the Odonti. But I doubt they will have a place in the future Realms.
Oh according to second edition they were LG...though I didn't see them get written up in 3.x.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=3
This debate also reminds of a saying by Myrym...I think it was something like..."Are the interests of good and evil so different?"
HEre's also a good psychology I got from Races of Savagery.
Psychology: Orcs are violent, impulsive, and crude. The very nature of their society leaves little room for compassion or remorse. Each day a family member dies, or there is a shortage of food, or the village is attacked by an "Adventuring party", it is these types of tragic occurences that serve to hardening the hearts of most orcs at a very young age. They have little time to worry about the future or anyone but themselves, making orcs very survival orientated. Even when they leave the dangers of the orc tribe, an orc has trouble letting go of their defensive impulses. They will be very territorial and protective of their possessions, leading to the misconception that they're greedy by nature.
For that matter, many of the orc's failures in the eyes of "civilzed" races (poor hygiene, violent, rude, aggressive) are not innate, but rather the result of warlike culture begotten of a grim and hopeless lifestyle. Orcs raised outside of the confines of their tribes can show just as much benevolence or piety as any human can. It still must be noted that orcs are to some extent inclined to be stupider and far less insightful then humans, having an innate inclination to being short-tempered, impatient, and uncouth.
The difference between the average Orcs of The North and the barbarians of Icewind Dale is pretty much neglible. Are we going to argue that someone should go in and "civilize" Wulfgar's tribes and introduce them to culture?
Forgotten Realms isn't exactly the stereotypical D&D world that people make it out to be. Orcs are a villainous race but they have their own nation in Thar and they've also got plenty of places where Half-Orcs exist that indicate some interaction that isn't entirely the result of war crimes.
Ed Greenwood has actually indicated that while there's significant racism in the Realms, for the most part, the people are fairly cosmopolitian that a Gnoll walking around isn't a guy to be gunned down on sight. The biggest problems that Orcs have is entirely internal in the fact that they almost never survive as a cultural horde, being more content to be a hunter/gatherer society.
The irony is, if you want to talk about the possibilities for Orcs to rise above their current state, you also have to adopt an incredible cultural arrogance and paternalistic attitude that (ironically) is the result of not thinking them of volunteers in their own way of life.
The difference between the average Orcs of The North and the barbarians of Icewind Dale is pretty much neglible. Are we going to argue that someone should go in and "civilize" Wulfgar's tribes and introduce them to culture?
Forgotten Realms isn't exactly the stereotypical D&D world that people make it out to be. Orcs are a villainous race but they have their own nation in Thar and they've also got plenty of places where Half-Orcs exist that indicate some interaction that isn't entirely the result of war crimes.
Ed Greenwood has actually indicated that while there's significant racism in the Realms, for the most part, the people are fairly cosmopolitian that a Gnoll walking around isn't a guy to be gunned down on sight. The biggest problems that Orcs have is entirely internal in the fact that they almost never survive as a cultural horde, being more content to be a hunter/gatherer society.
Okay, I think that was more of a reflection to my psychology of orcs....No comment.
I know the orcs' weakneses and strengths, I know that they have a capability to be intelligent but most of their numbers have low intelligence. I'm only stating the fact that there are lots of orcs out there that are more intelligent than a normal human.
The problem here is that orcs have numerous and colorful cultural varieties (THIS I THINK IS DUE TO THEIR HUGE NUMBERS IN FAERUN/PARTICULARLY THEY ARE ONE OF THE MOST NUMBEROUS RACES IN FAERUN). They have too many cultural varieties for a person to define. Most of them live in that warlike savage manner you describe. But you also cannot ignore the number of orcs that live peacefully with humans. To sum it all up, orc culture have a similarity to that of humans.
Some humans like Wulfgar's Tribe are barbarians, some like the Zhentarim are evil, some are good, some too evil, some idiots, some cutrpurses.
I believe Obould was FR's attempt at absorbing Warcraft fan populace. People like me, I suppose.
But as far as I know, orcs in FR and DnD in general are lot more savage and stupid compared to orcs in Warcraft. And humans in FR and DnD in general are lot more peaceful and better natured compared to humans in Warcraft.
In Warcraft, humans and elves invented slavery. And the two races exhibit extreme cultural and racial arrogance.
Everytime I read about Obould, I see not the orc king, but Ogrim Doomhammer, previous Warchief of the Horde.
I believe Obould was FR's attempt at absorbing Warcraft fan populace. People like me, I suppose.
But as far as I know, orcs in FR and DnD in general are lot more savage and stupid compared to orcs in Warcraft. And humans in FR and DnD in general are lot more peaceful and better natured compared to humans in Warcraft.
In Warcraft, humans and elves invented slavery. And the two races exhibit extreme cultural and racial arrogance.
What happens when you read about the shakarim? General Vrakk? The half-orcs at the bloodstone lands?
Didn't Vrakk and the shakarim came BEFORE the idea about cool orcs in warcraft?
What happens when you read about the shakarim? General Vrakk? The half-orcs at the bloodstone lands?
Didn't Vrakk and the shakarim came BEFORE the idea about cool orcs in warcraft?
Exactly my point. The very fact that those are exceptions prove that orcs of FR are unfit creatures to fill the role of Ogrim.
Speaking of cool orcs, where did the first cool orcs erupt at? Did it come out at LOTR? Ultima? Warcraft or at DnD?
My flag goes to DnD!!
And the first DnD orcs were very similar to Uruk-Hai.
And Uruk-hai is the first example of 'cool orcs'
And Uruk-hai is the first example of 'cool orcs'
-I'm pretty sure that's an oxymoron.
I'm almost done with The Orc King, and in the fight scenes an orc is constantly referred to as "it" or "creature". So even in this book, they are still monsters!
It's a TRANSITION thing, don't you know? They have to make the TRANSITION from monsters to people before they obtain the right to dignified pronouns in battle. Ya dig? :P
It's a TRANSITION thing, don't you know? They have to make the TRANSITION from monsters to people before they obtain the right to dignified pronouns in battle. Ya dig? :P
HA!
Exactly my point. The very fact that those are exceptions prove that orcs of FR are unfit creatures to fill the role of Ogrim.
I don't know, has the Realms ever only treated Orcs as stupidly savage monsters deserving to be destroyed? Frankly, all the depictions I've seen have Orcs (despite what they appear in other settings) as very cunning creatures. Take note I accent creatures since Montollio was very clear that he considered them a race of evil.
Of course, R.A. Salvatore's Realms is somewhat different from the rest of the Realms.
In Salvatore's Realms, people wet their pants at the sight of Drow. In Elaine Cunningham's Realms, they're considered shifty and untrustworthy. In Ed Greenwood's Realms, your ship crew might include 6 Drow and a horde of Gnolls (AND THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILLY PIRATES!)
Nah, I think warcraft 3 copied the orcs in FR in a cool manner. Their orcs have their own uniqueness = enslaved by demons in outland, and were soon freed by Thrall's guidance.
Speaking of cool orcs, where did the first cool orcs erupt at? Did it come out at LOTR? Ultima? Warcraft or at DnD?
My flag goes to DnD!!
I doubt very highly that Blizz lifted orcs directly from the Forgotten Realms. They've been around a lot longer than even Dungeons and Dragons, and I'm sure the developers were influenced by a number of different versions of "orcs".
Personally, I don't see the attraction... Which is strange, since I do see the attraction to Drow... maybe it's because the Drow are more sophisticated and women (mostly) rule in their society?
Orcs have always been disturbing to me because they are, in fact, even more sexist than Drow... Orc women have their role in society and woe betide any Orc woman who decides to go against the absolute patriarchy... But you know, this hardly gets a nod. People complain more often about Drow matriarchy than Orc patriarchy.
Orcs have always been disturbing to me because they are, in fact, even more sexist than Drow... Orc women have their role in society and woe betide any Orc woman who decides to go against the absolute patriarchy... But you know, this hardly gets a nod. People complain more often about Drow matriarchy than Orc patriarchy.
Yeah, then again, the same can be said for the Beldine and Wufgar's people.
Then again, I don't read the novels - but if one's drawing the opinion ONLY from the sourcebooks, I do have to say that we're reading the same thing in completely different ways.
I'm almost done with The Orc King, and in the fight scenes an orc is constantly referred to as "it" or "creature". So even in this book, they are still monsters!
A gazelle is considered as an it, is it a monster?
Orcs are monsters...most of them are evil monsters like the Zhentarim, RedWood Orcs, Eye's of Gruumsh and the Dark Arrow Orcs. Most of them are also good monsters, like the shakarim, the orcs at Vaasa, and more.
BTW: To those curious about orcs way of life, here's a psychology I picked up at Races of Savagery:
Orc Society
The Family:
It is a widespread belief that orcs have no familial bonds or loyalty, being violent and cruel to their own children. This view is the result of prejudices and misinterpretations of actions and the society as a whole. The Orcish reliance on the clan (See below) change many of the duties other humanoids assign to the family. In the simplest terms, the entire clan is an orc's family. The older warriors serve as uncles and mentors, fellow clan children serve as brothers-in-arms, cousins, and eventual tested allies. The females of the clan serve as aunts, grandmothers, and in many cases eventual wives.
None of this refutes the fact that orcs do honor the ties of blood, and hold loyalty to their families. An Orcish father seeing his sons wrestle in the dirt is one of the proudest creatures alive. The misunderstanding results from the orcish viewpoint. An orc sees no reason to spare his children pain, indeed he feels it is his duty to teach the harder lessons, as he knows he won't kill his sons. Orcs live lives of constant battle and danger, an untested or weak orc is a liability to the clan and tribe. So an orc will often strike children who make mistakes or don't learn, as a bruise will heal better than a cut from a dwarven axe. However, orcs also understand that they will lose children. Too rough playing, childhood accidents, raids from unscrupulous adventurers, all of these make the likelihood of an orc child making it to adulthood low. Often, adventurers report that orcs callously beat their children, not seeing the lines of resignation in the father's face, unwilling to embrace a child in case it should fall. Once a child survives past the day of adulthood, the orc's love for his offspring is fiercer than almost any race's. Some of the greatest blood rivalries, and most intense of hatreds, have sprung from the death of an orc's young son.
The Clan:
Most races focus on the family. Others focus on the community as a whole. Orcs, contrary creatures that they are, follow neither path. The core unit of orc society is not the family, nor the tribe, but rather, the clan. The clan is at times a difficult concept to understand, but to the orcs, it is the best of both worlds. A clan is made up of several families, normally 3-4, that share some distinctive trait. It is often the case that this distinctive trait is a combat style, but at times it could be a strange religion, or perhaps the families produce a great many druids, or some other unique characteristic. In any case, the clan is sort of a tribe within a tribe, or the family above the family. The standard way of an orc's life is to be taught the ways of his clan by his father, then the other warriors/mentor of the clan, to prove himself worthy to take the clan's name at adulthood, and marry within the clan. This being said, there are other ways to become a member of a clan. Some orcs cannot live in a clan, or at the least, learn it's ways. An example is, say Oruk, of the Blood Razors, a clan that focuses on wielding light, slashing weapons in both hands, has a son that is ponderous, but strong and tougher than most of the other children. If it is deemed that a child cannot learn the clan ways, and the clan has no other function he can fill, the father will address the chief, his clan head, both of whom will contact another clan head, and discuss the potential for a clan transfer. If deemed appropriate, the child will be formally adopted by a family of the other clan, and be raised as a member of the clan. He will be a clan member in all ways, but still retain loyalty to his real family. Occasionally, chiefs will force clan transfers as a way of cooling clan rivalries. It's hard to hate the people who have raised your eldest son to be a honorable warrior. Clans can choose, as a whole, to leave or join a tribe.
The Tribe:
The Clan is the central unit of society to an orc, but the most commonly seen structure is the tribe. This is due to the understanding of teamwork and unity orcs. At its most fundamental, the theory, though few orcs could express it, is the more non-clan allies we have, the fewer of our clan will die in battle. Orcs gather in tribes, because numbers provide strength and safety.
A tribal chief is not a powerless figurehead, though. The chief is the voice of the tribe, regardless of whether or not most or any of the tribe agrees. He mediates clan disputes, and leads the tribe in battle. He is regarded as the closest thing to an avatar of Gruumsh a tribe has. He consults with the priests to know the Orcfather's will, and will consult with the tribal elders on more mundane matters.
Elder is a title that any orc can acquire, though as suggested by the name, usually the wiser, older orcs fill the roles. The elders manage the lesser aspects of tribal life for the chief. Things like sanitation, food, clothes, all seen to by the elders. A lesser known or discussed part of the elders is that often, should a tribe possess some from of scouts or spies, unless battle is joined or an attack imminent, the leader of such a group reports to the elders, of which he or she is a member. Any religious or spiritual leaders not favored by the chief hold positions amongst the elders.
Gender Roles:
Orcs are by nature a warlike people. When they are not preparing for battle, they are either waging it or resting from it. Such a life makes one a fierce warrior, but also ill-suited for domestic life. Thus the roles in orcish society have become fairly divided.
The males of an orc tribe tend to fall into one of three categories: warrior, leader, informant. The majority of orc males are warriors, constantly fighting, or wanting to fight. The second most common is the leader. Be he a priest of Gruumsh, a clan head, a chief, or some other role, these orcs fight, but also plan and plot and show their followers how things are done. The rarest of the male role is that of informant. The wizened druid, the half-blood spy, the maimed instructor, all examples of the least represented and honorable of male orc roles. In a society that measures prestige by strength, being the brain carries a stigma.
The females handle all the day-to-day that makes a tribe run. They make the goods, hunt, cook, raise children, mend armor and weapons, and in some cases are even the forgers of said weapons. They fall into a wide variety of roles, from the broodmother watching the clan's children, the rare female fighter war-wedded, or a simple wife to a great warrior. Without the females, an orc tribe, clan, or family would quickly find itself unable to function or possibly survive.
A gazelle is considered as an it, is it a monster?
It's not considered a person, which is really my point.
So : formula:
creture referd to as It = not a person (as stated in previous post)
creature refered to as It = monster (as stated in previous post)
Solution process:
not a person = monster
Psychology:
Animal = not a person
Solution process:
Animal = monster
Psychology:
Gazelle = animal
Solution process:
Gazelle = monster
This made things more confusing to me.
-I'm pretty sure that's an oxymoron.
Remember, the Orcish pantheon DOES have at least one acknowledged, non-persecuted female deity in it.
I can't recall reading very many novels with Orcs in them...
But the only reason Luthic isn't "persecuted" is because she knows her place.
It's a bad argument as stands - you'd need to expand on it.
Sidnote: I play Gnolls as matriarchal for obvious reasons. I tend to have Gnoll female Shamans always conflicting with Abyssal Thralls of Yeenoghu.
Your logical processes truly frighten me Creyzi... not a person is simply not a person, not necessarily a monster. Life isn't as simple as a <, >, or = solution in much of anything but hard sciences.
Also not entirely true. Logic and discrete are branches of both mathematics and PHILOSOPHY, but not science at all!
Yes, ummm...you were trying to change your stance...
No, you're just not understanding my point, which is the REAL reason why you are confused.
But the only reason Luthic isn't "persecuted" is because she knows her place.
As a nearly omnipotent witch and seeress?
That's a REALLY bad argument, in my opinion. I know my 'place' as a student. I know my 'place' as a senior, over the freshman physics majors. I know my 'place' as a tutor.
How's this for an argument then?
Luthic is the Orc deity of fertility, medicine, females and servitude.
It is her job to keep the females of the orc tribes in their traditional roles (in servitude to the males), in order to maintain the cohesion of orcish society as it stands.
A female Orc who wanted to break out of the roles she's expected to fill (ie: one who wanted to be a warrior) wouldn't be worshiping any of the Orc pantheon as far as I can tell.
(Charles, as you can see from her portfolios she's not really a witch or seeress more than medicine woman. Interesting that the only deity I know of who has medicine in their portfolio in the Realms is an Orcish one.)
That's a change that I think everyone could be happy with- he'd be kept busy and out of the way of PC's, and hey- who doesn't think fatherhood would be good for the guy?!
I don't.
Drizzt loves succumbing to wanderlust and danger, and hasn't indicated that he'd like to settle down anytime soon. That's the main reason why I wouldn't consider him the best candidate for fatherhood.
Of course, the irony is that she's clearly smarter than her husband.
Also, they have a God of Stupidity.
?!
This is why I think orcs are more famous than drow....Let's check the many fantasy settings orcs appear in.
The Killing Spirit
Warmongers
Dragonlance
(There is some controversy regarding orcs in the Dragonlance. The 1st edition AD&D Dragonlance Adventures hardbound rulebook states that orcs do not exist on Krynn, with ogres and minotaurs largely replacing their typical role. Second and 3rd edition Dragonlance supplements also remove orcs from the world of Krynn. The main confusion on the subject has occurred from a few Dragonlance novels and/or adventures in which the writer has accidentally included orcs. In particular, the novel Kendermore by Mary Kirchoff, where one of the main characters is a half-orc. This has occurred with other iconic races of Dungeons & Dragons, such as drow, that are not native to the Dragonlance setting. Some suggest that the presence of orcs in Dragonlance can be explained through planar or space travel as Krynn is connected to other Dungeons & Dragons worlds (where orcs exist) through the Planescape and Spelljammer settings.)
Eberron
Forgotten Realms
Greyhawk
Mystara
Spelljammer
Warhammer
Warcraft
Final Fantasy XI
The Elder Scrolls
Lineage II
Hârn
Earthdawn and Shadowrun
Sovereign Stone
The Three Towns
Utopia
Arcanum
Orkworld
Magic: The Gathering
Munchkin 2
Disciples
Siege of Avalon
Fallout
Palladium Fantasy
Flintloque
Ciredaun
Gothic Trilogy
Ragnarok Online
RuneScape
Age of Wonders
Mythology Stronghold
Stronghold
Dungeon Master
etc.
You don't see drow in some of those games
Orcs are still one of the biggest fantasy creatures in the planet. The drow fame is nothing compared to orc fame.
This is why I think orcs are more famous than drow....Let's check the many fantasy settings orcs appear in.
The Killing Spirit
Warmongers
Dragonlance
(There is some controversy regarding orcs in the Dragonlance. The 1st edition AD&D Dragonlance Adventures hardbound rulebook states that orcs do not exist on Krynn, with ogres and minotaurs largely replacing their typical role. Second and 3rd edition Dragonlance supplements also remove orcs from the world of Krynn. The main confusion on the subject has occurred from a few Dragonlance novels and/or adventures in which the writer has accidentally included orcs. In particular, the novel Kendermore by Mary Kirchoff, where one of the main characters is a half-orc. This has occurred with other iconic races of Dungeons & Dragons, such as drow, that are not native to the Dragonlance setting. Some suggest that the presence of orcs in Dragonlance can be explained through planar or space travel as Krynn is connected to other Dungeons & Dragons worlds (where orcs exist) through the Planescape and Spelljammer settings.)
Eberron
Forgotten Realms
Greyhawk
Mystara
Spelljammer
Warhammer
Warcraft
Final Fantasy XI
The Elder Scrolls
Lineage II
Hârn
Earthdawn and Shadowrun
Sovereign Stone
The Three Towns
Utopia
Arcanum
Orkworld
Magic: The Gathering
Munchkin 2
Disciples
Siege of Avalon
Fallout
Palladium Fantasy
Flintloque
Ciredaun
Gothic Trilogy
Ragnarok Online
RuneScape
Age of Wonders
Mythology Stronghold
Stronghold
Dungeon Master
etc.
You don't see drow in some of those games
I am sorry but you list is not accurate, not that i would add to it but that i would actually remove an item.
Runescape has no orcs in it, in the classic version (dead now) their was rumored to be exactly one lvl 23 orc in the Ardougne zoo in the old runescape classic. Nowhere else has the creature even been possibly sighted or talked about. I would say that the orc does not exist in the runescape universe.
Orcs are considered evil commonly becuase of their general actions, raiding and killing and mudering humans and other races. Humans do the same. The orcs cannot communicate effectively to most of the other races so they are at war with them, in general who ever you are at war with you might call evil. Either way the only races that you can assume are "evil" are demonic creatures from my understanding.
Orcs are in a tough situation becuase they cant get along with many other races well, and if you go with the flow then odds are you going to be facing a deadly current.
The orcs cannot communicate effectively to most of the other races so they are at war with them, in general who ever you are at war with you might call evil. Either way the only races that you can assume are "evil" are demonic creatures from my understanding.
Actually, they communicate just fine. They communicate "I want to kill you and take your stuff."
LIVE THE ADVENTURER DREAM MY GREEN SKINNED FRIEND!
And yes, whoever you are at war with you consider as evil. Except for the drow of course, which are so evil and stupid that they backstab each other. Drow are psychos, they are very conscious about their backs which is why they never prosper, coz they lack trust.
:-p
But yes, a lot of wars don't demonize the enemy. Most DO but not always.
If u consider the judges...drow weren't able to take Mithril Hall even with the aid of demons and mindflayers and kobolds and goblins.....orcs on the other hand successfully beat Bruenors hoard with the use of his good trust with his allies (the giants and trolls).
So in other words.
Orcs banding up together > drow banding up together
But we all know banding up orcs isn't that likely to happen.
:88E:So what, who cares about orcs and drow! The spellplague is going to unleash Abeir on Toril. Worry about the Aboleths! They are coming!!! The Aboleths are coming!!!
Oh yeah, what's an aboleth?
Oh yeah, what's an aboleth?
Something that will treat an orc like the meat it is! A creature with vast mind powers, to control weak willed orcs! Seriously you dont know what an aboleth is? Have a monster manual, look for it, under the A section in the beginning of the book, ok.;) :88E: :coolcthul :88E: :coolcthul
Though really, they would pretty much wipe the floor with orcs without breaking much of a sweat... doubtful they'd even bother enslaving them and just use them for a snack.
Nah, kind of an overblown fish thing, about 20' long, hermaphroditic, amphibious, mean, nasty, smart, some really nasty attacks, mighty mental powers... you know, the standard Lovecraftian monster garbage without the squid/octopi shape. Blah, blah, blah...
Though really, they would pretty much wipe the floor with orcs without breaking much of a sweat... doubtful they'd even bother enslaving them and just use them for a snack.
Looks like the almighty orcs have met there match!!!
They are coming!!!
Come here meat, crunch, crunch, crunch.:D
You know who wants to kill Drizzt the most by the way?
Wulfgar.
In the first book Wulfgar was the main protagonist...after thgat he got reduced to sidekick status...
The while Wulfgar was being tortured in heck Drizzt stole his girlfriend....
While this murder mystery wouldn't be that hard to solve...mmm head bashed in my a massive thrown object...
Having recently reread all the books published about Drizzt (I love that name almost as much as Dagnabbit), I have to conclude that yet another once-original and refreshing character has been stretched waaaay too far! (a la 'Drizzts back!!!! and this time, he's ****** off (in his own special introspective way)... at Pirates/Orcs/ Drow/ Other Drow that dont like the aforementioned Drow/Trolls/Krishna Consciousness/etc ad infinitum ad nauseam).
While I can understand the authors (and publishers) motive to keep milking the cash cow, that doesnt mean I respect what it does to characters integrity. I emphatically do not.
For me, one of the most evocative characters ever in the Drizzt canon was a simple goblin that Drizzt murdered and then waxed lyrical about in one of his vaunted diaries (dear diary, today I killed more mooks and Catti-Brie wore her tight bearskin leggings...).
This fellow sentient being was being kept as a slave by humans (cant remember the name of the story), but did our paragon of equality and never judge a book by its cover woe is me emo Drow stick up for him. Noooo! Only good-looking sexy evil races get a shot at redemption.
So I, for one, applaud this initiative (satirical though its intent might have been). We owe it to ourselves and what Drizzt once stood for to hunt down and eliminate this warped parody of all that a good-aligned drow should be. The north calls, and I say we should answer her call! Let Aegis-Fang crush his bones and the countless Drizzt clones populate the Realms. I propose we set off from Nesme and cut him off at the pass...
As for the Spellplague, I say bring it on
. The Realms has rested on its laurels for far too long and its time for some housecleaning. Mystra and her Chosen, surface dwelling drow (especially those of good alignment with moral conflicts), 20th level hedge wizards as well as the whole Harper posse can bite me.
Though I did find the idea of the Weave intriguing, I am more eager than ever to see what the future holds for the Realms. After all, I can still run all my old material in campaigns set before the Spellplague!
I am of two minds about the streamlining of the pantheon, as I think it added depth to the world, but I dont think there is any question that there will be a new god/dess of magic along shortly. As for the likes of Haela Brightaxe and Siamorphe, how many people really care
Chahir
As for the likes of Haela Brightaxe and Siamorphe, how many people really care
Almost certainly more than you seem to think...
I've played a Siamorphian before, at least. And I know of at least half a dozen to a dozen posters here who care, off the top of my head.
And before anyone uses the "that's just a minority opinion on a message board" argument, the same can be taken the other way, too. So far the only polls done that I know (the one at Candlekeep) seem to heavily dislike the changes being made (which include the reduction of the pantheons).
I Having recently reread all the books published about Drizzt (I love that name almost as much as Dagnabbit), I have to conclude that yet another once-original and refreshing character has been stretched waaaay too far! (a la 'Drizzts back!!!! and this time, he's ****** off (in his own special introspective way)... at Pirates/Orcs/ Drow/ Other Drow that dont like the aforementioned Drow/Trolls/Krishna Consciousness/etc ad infinitum ad nauseam).
While I can understand the authors (and publishers) motive to keep milking the cash cow, that doesnt mean I respect what it does to characters integrity. I emphatically do not.
Well, personally, I like the stories that have been written so far, though I like some less than others (my least favorite is Passage to Dawn, but that does not mean I don't like that one--I do, and quite a bit). I don't think Drizzt's been stretched too far, but then, I don't think Gosho Aoyama's Detective Conan series has been stretched too far even after 50+ volumes, soooooo.... maybe I'm not a reliable opinion...
For me, one of the most evocative characters ever in the Drizzt canon was a simple goblin that Drizzt murdered and then waxed lyrical about in one of his vaunted diaries (dear diary, today I killed more mooks and Catti-Brie wore her tight bearskin leggings...).
This fellow sentient being was being kept as a slave by humans (cant remember the name of the story), but did our paragon of equality and never judge a book by its cover woe is me emo Drow stick up for him. Noooo! Only good-looking sexy evil races get a shot at redemption.
Which book is that short story in, by the way?
So I, for one, applaud this initiative (satirical though its intent might have been). We owe it to ourselves and what Drizzt once stood for to hunt down and eliminate this warped parody of all that a good-aligned drow should be. The north calls, and I say we should answer her call! Let Aegis-Fang crush his bones and the countless Drizzt clones populate the Realms. I propose we set off from Nesme and cut him off at the pass...
Recruit the aide of Galen Firth while you're in the area. He'd love a piece of this.
As for the Spellplague, I say bring it on
Mystra and her Chosen, surface dwelling drow (especially those of good alignment with moral conflicts), 20th level hedge wizards as well as the whole Harper posse can bite me.
And when the dust settles and the fires dim down to a dull flicker, it is the Zhentarim who shall pick up the pieces of this burnt and broken world...
But yes, if Obould's rise were realistic, he'd consolidate his control over his territories and start building up logistic support for his attacks.
And either the next generation or in 20 years, launch his next assault.
BTW, anyone get some shades of appeasement in Drizzt's eagerness to appease Obould? R.A. Salvatore is probably the first fantasy author in history I think to come down on the idea that it's better to let the bad guys take territory and be unpunished than further war.
Possibly there was some appeasement in there. But Drizzt's prime concern seemed to be whether or not Obould really wanted to aim for orc civilization--he says much about that and little of the potential bloodshed further war would result in. The latter was more Alustriel's wing of the castle...
BTW, anyone get some shades of appeasement in Drizzt's eagerness to appease Obould? R.A. Salvatore is probably the first fantasy author in history I think to come down on the idea that it's better to let the bad guys take territory and be unpunished than further war.
Whoever said Obould that was a bad guy? I thought it was stated in the end that Obould was a necessity for the peace of dwarf and orcs?
Whoever said Obould that was a bad guy? I thought it was stated in the end that Obould was a necessity for the peace of dwarf and orcs?
Obould is explicitly a bad guy in the book. Drizzt is just pointing out that it may be good in the long term to let them build up civilization.
And Aboleths are just giant Catfish with too many eyes.
I vote with Dan - Illithids FTW!!!
Whoever said Obould that was a bad guy? I thought it was stated in the end that Obould was a necessity for the peace of dwarf and orcs?
Alot of people on this thread said so :P.
Drizzto delenda Est
I mean, Corellon! Damn it.
Drizzto delenda Est
Ita! Veritus est.
For me, one of the most evocative characters ever in the Drizzt canon was a simple goblin that Drizzt murdered and then waxed lyrical about in one of his vaunted diaries...
Are you talking about that "good" goblin? I haven't read that story in a long time, but I could have sworn Drizzt did not kill him, he got hung by his owner.
As for the Spellplague, I say bring it on
I guess you haven't known about all the RSEs to come down the pipe for years now?
BTW, anyone get some shades of appeasement in Drizzt's eagerness to appease Obould?
Yes.
The "politics" of that novel (whether RAS intended to get political or not) definitely rubbed me the wrong way.
Act - simply stop buying these things you do not like and wait until a reaction.
:D
Death only lasts to reincarnation.
*lol*, you are the customers, right?
Act - simply stop buying these things you do not like and wait until a reaction.
:D
Death only lasts to reincarnation.
I mostly enjoy reading the novels. But that doesn't mean there aren't aspects of them that rub me the wrong way.
Happens with a lot of things.
-Don't get me wrong. I found it really impossible How IN the Nine Hells was Mithril Hall able to hold back Dark Arrow when the orcs outnumbered them 40 to 1.
-Or, how was Drizzt able to run away from Obould in the first fight despite the fact that he was surrounded. It's fairly impossible for even a drow NOT to get hit by spears and arrows running for his pegasus.
It really sounds almost impossible for the heroes to be able to do that.
The only thing that sounded more realistic (but with flaws) in RAS novels was Dark Arrow standing for hundreds of years.
-Don't get me wrong. I found it really impossible How IN the Nine Hells was Mithril Hall able to hold back Dark Arrow when the orcs outnumbered them 40 to 1.
-Or, how was Drizzt able to run away from Obould in the first fight despite the fact that he was surrounded. It's fairly impossible for even a drow NOT to get hit by spears and arrows running for his pegasus.
It really sounds almost impossible for the heroes to be able to do that.
The only thing that sounded more realistic (but with flaws) in RAS novels was Dark Arrow standing for hundreds of years.
-Lots of things in the novels rub me the wrong way. But I really don't take it that personally.
-Don't get me wrong. I found it really impossible How IN the Nine Hells was Mithril Hall able to hold back Dark Arrow when the orcs outnumbered them 40 to 1.
-Or, how was Drizzt able to run away from Obould in the first fight despite the fact that he was surrounded. It's fairly impossible for even a drow NOT to get hit by spears and arrows running for his pegasus.
It really sounds almost impossible for the heroes to be able to do that.
The only thing that sounded more realistic (but with flaws) in RAS novels was Dark Arrow standing for hundreds of years.
Drizzt novels do that kind of thing. The small band of heroes prevailing against larger-than-life (impossible) odds, you know? It's what they do.
Did you catch that Drizzt Ex Machina in Orc King, where Wulfgar is at death's door one scene and in the next, Drizzt magically appears and saves his skin? :P
Drizzt novels do that kind of thing. The small band of heroes prevailing against larger-than-life (impossible) odds, you know? It's what they do.
Did you catch that Drizzt Ex Machina in Orc King, where Wulfgar is at death's door one scene and in the next, Drizzt magically appears and saves his skin? :P
I kinda figured Drizzt might have trailed him, though (besides, he had been absent from the story for a bit before that, so it was a perfect reentrance).
Would you like them to have a spell of protection from normal missiles before they can successfully survive such an encounter?
So anything's possible in DnD. But I find it ironic how many of u guys find the facts about RAS' novels hard to accept. Like orcs winning the kingdom, or Shimergloom being defeated like that. You're forgetting one thing, this is DnD we're talking about. It's the opposite of realistic.
So by all means I think that DarkArrow winning the land is as natural in DnD as ever.
It's only when I try to apply D&D logic that it doesn't work.
But if Elminster got out of hell, or if Jherek kicked the hell out of Iakhovas then that thing could've been the most impossible thing I've ever read about. Even more impossible than Drizzt killing a balor, or Drizzt killing Shimergloom.
I'm a massive Drizzt fan. I would never malign my favored FR series and actually mean it.
As for D&D logic... pft. It's ludicrous to apply dice rolls and numbered statistics to a novel based on action and consequence without gaming restraint. I mean, I can just see the scene now...
Drizzt Do'Urden, suddenly assailed by a tundra yeti, rolls his attack die.
"Damn it, I missed!" he swears under his breath, and when the yeti rolled its own die, Drizzt found himself flattened beneath a ton of furry monster.
Catching my drift? Now here's what happens next:
Then Bruenor appeared--Dwarf Ex Machina, dig it!--and rolled his attack die.
"Critical twenty!" he roared in triumph. "You DIE!"
The yeti looks at the die and scratches his head.
"But that's a four-sided--AAAAARRRRRGHHH!"
...his words become a death-snarl as a many-notched axe buries itself in his skull.
And I agree with creyzi. I mean, do we really need any more reality in our lives? And if so, what the heck are we doing HERE?!
Not that I would every do such a heinous thing as a DM...
In NwN a level 15 fighter could even kill a great red dragon all by himself. A balor like Errtu could be killed by a level 12 fighter too.
All of u people keep talking like.. "If I wanted to experience something realistic then I won't play DnD. It's the opposite of reality."
So anything's possible in DnD. But I find it ironic how many of u guys find the facts about RAS' novels hard to accept. Like orcs winning the kingdom...
I don't find the concept of orcs winning a kingdom hard to accept. What I find hard to accept is the reaction of other characters regarding said kingdom.
Regarding logic in D&D--this may be fantasy, but even a fantasy world has to apply it's own internal logic.
^_^' I was kidding, myself... I do that...
I'm a massive Drizzt fan. I would never malign my favored FR series and actually mean it.
As for D&D logic... pft. It's ludicrous to apply dice rolls and numbered statistics to a novel based on action and consequence without gaming restraint. I mean, I can just see the scene now...
Drizzt Do'Urden, suddenly assailed by a tundra yeti, rolls his attack die.
"Damn it, I missed!" he swears under his breath, and when the yeti rolled its own die, Drizzt found himself flattened beneath a ton of furry monster.
Catching my drift? Now here's what happens next:
Then Bruenor appeared--Dwarf Ex Machina, dig it!--and rolled his attack die.
"Critical twenty!" he roared in triumph. "You DIE!"
The yeti looks at the die and scratches his head.
"But that's a four-sided--AAAAARRRRRGHHH!"
...his words become a death-snarl as a many-notched axe buries itself in his skull.
And I agree with creyzi. I mean, do we really need any more reality in our lives? And if so, what the heck are we doing HERE?!
I burst out laughing when I read this!!!
I do understand how this does seem and is completely ridiculous, When I posted what I said about stats and rolling dice I wasn't sure exactly if I was being sincere or sarcastic and I still haven't made up my mind
I agree that any fantasy world has to have its own internal logic, I like things to be semi realistic to a point where it is believable. When I say Realistic I don't mean in my own reality but whatever fantasy world I am reading or talking.
I find this whole idea of a new orc kingdom popping up fairly illogical from what I have read about the realms, usually when something nasty and threatening rises people stop it or die trying. They barely gave an effort on these orcs. I wouldn't exactly feel safe if I knew that tens of thousands of orcs just decided to move into my neighborhood.
So anything's possible in DnD.
But not everything is probable. Saying "anything's possible" is a sign of someone who usually doesn't know how anything actually works.
But not everything is probable. Saying "anything's possible" is a sign of someone who usually doesn't know how anything actually works.
Well, if one donates enough gold to the many temples of Tymora and is born with their Fateful Coin facing the right direction, even a level one thief can defeat a balor in single combat. :P
But how often do you find a level 1 thief heavily backed by the power of a deity?
The question is why did the Stat Writers choose to make him 16th level?
But if it happens once, it can happen again, and if you twist around the thinking enough even the near impossible can become probable in certain contexts.
If something can change to become probable, it was never impossible to begin with.
What it boils down to is that Drizzt killed the Balor in the books.
The question is why did the Stat Writers choose to make him 16th level?
I don't think that's much of a problem. I mean, in NwN 1 and 2 a level 14-15 fighter could bring down a balor without any sweat.
I don't know what makes Dark Arrow winning so impossible. I mean, if u count the facts them winning is very possible.
1. Obould outnumbered Bruenor 40-1
2. Bruenor's supply is cut down, while Obould is free to have some
3. Bruenor's dwarves' morale is low from the fact that he was presumed dying/dead, while Obould's orcs are with great morale from the rumor about Gruumsh favoring him
4. If magic is included in the battle, Obould would beat Bruenor, Obould has his giants which are more powerful at magic than Bruenor's dwarves. Besides, Obould is immune to fireballs..Danica got her ass kicked that time
5. Obould has more allies in war than Bruenor
And from the fact about orcs not being able to settle a kingdom. Whattabout Zhentarim orcs? Or take the mongols for example, they were a BARBARIC and SAVAGE race which were constantly AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER. Genghis Khan united them with his strong will. He is one man...and he was able to create order among barbarians. I don't think it's that impossible for Obould either, considering the fact that he is a military genius.
Maybe the human barbarians of the dale aren't as capable of having a leader such as Obould. Obould is one in a million, even Drizzt had to admit somehting like that.
(Behaving is giving me a headache)
I don't think that's much of a problem. I mean, in NwN 1 and 2 a level 14-15 fighter could bring down a balor without any sweat.
I don't know what makes Dark Arrow winning so impossible. I mean, if u count the facts them winning is very possible.
1. Obould outnumbered Bruenor 40-1
2. Bruenor's supply is cut down, while Obould is free to have some
3. Bruenor's dwarves' morale is low from the fact that he was presumed dying/dead, while Obould's orcs are with great morale from the rumor about Gruumsh favoring him
4. If magic is included in the battle, Obould would beat Bruenor, Obould has his giants which are more powerful at magic than Bruenor's dwarves. Besides, Obould is immune to fireballs..Danica got her ass kicked that time
5. Obould has more allies in war than Bruenor
And from the fact about orcs not being able to settle a kingdom. Whattabout Zhentarim orcs? Or take the mongols for example, they were a BARBARIC and SAVAGE race which were constantly AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER. Genghis Khan united them with his strong will. He is one man...and he was able to create order among barbarians. I don't think it's that impossible for Obould either, considering the fact that he is a military genius.
Maybe the human barbarians of the dale aren't as capable of having a leader such as Obould. Obould is one in a million, even Drizzt had to admit somehting like that.
I have to say that Obould really is not half as special as you say, he was clever and powerful for an orc but this Genius Orc Avatar you have is truly a product of the orc god souping him up. I am fairly sure that if you have any deity pumping that much power into anyone with already some good potential you'll have another Obould like figure running around but with a different agenda.
I can easily see the dwarves being able to protect their hall since it is a fortress and heavily guarded with traps and bottle neck positions as well as whatever built in strategic doodads.
You only compare the whole population of orc in the north to Bruenors Dwarves, take that against the whole population of the dwarves in the north and you get a different story. In all Honesty, Bruenor should have far more allies than Obould, they have a lot more to lose than those orcs that have everything to gain. It o most makes no sense for the other races of the north not to help Bruenor, he is all that stand between the power of all the orcs in the north and everyone else. If the orcs break past the dwarves hall than they could potentially sack anything they touch if the other people of the north do not combine forces.
The whole idea of north not getting into a bloody war with the orcs was a bunch of political crap.
I have to say that Obould really is not half as special as you say, he was clever and powerful for an orc but this Genius Orc Avatar you have is truly a product of the orc god souping him up. I am fairly sure that if you have any deity pumping that much power into anyone with already some good potential you'll have another Obould like figure running around but with a different agenda.
I can easily see the dwarves being able to protect their hall since it is a fortress and heavily guarded with traps and bottle neck positions as well as whatever built in strategic doodads.
You only compare the whole population of orc in the north to Bruenors Dwarves, take that against the whole population of the dwarves in the north and you get a different story. In all Honesty, Bruenor should have far more allies than Obould, they have a lot more to lose than those orcs that have everything to gain. It o most makes no sense for the other races of the north not to help Bruenor, he is all that stand between the power of all the orcs in the north and everyone else. If the orcs break past the dwarves hall than they could potentially sack anything they touch if the other people of the north do not combine forces.
The whole idea of north not getting into a bloody war with the orcs was a bunch of political crap.
I think Alustriel said it clearly that even the combined forces of the north, the orcs would still outnumber them 2 to 1.
I'm not saying that it's impossible for Bruenor to win. I'm saying that it's not impossible for Obould to win, because while Bruenor's hoard has his advantages, so does Obould. While you can easily see dwarves being able to easily defned their homeland, it's also not impossible to see the orcs defeating them..counting the fact that Obould is a military genius..I mean come-on, he dissed Drizzt about 2-3 times with his trap. True, he got nicked by the drow, but drow are so manipulative that they are even able to manipulate the GREATEST GENERALS like Obould....Remember Maztica?
Besides, we're not just talking about orcs here, we're talking also about giants and trolls and goblins....and drow.
1 - Win the war but suffer casualties in the extreme
2 - LOSE the war even after suffering casualties in the extreme
...Which is blatant simplification, as there are all sorts of political mashed potatoes for people like Alustriel to deal with on top of the simple logic of losing valuable lives/troops/whichever-of-the-two-you-consider-the-bigger-loss.
All in all, once Obould made clear his intentions to dig in and stop marching, the most practical option was to let him dig in and make peace as best they could, working for the best possible relationship between the existing Silver Marches kingdoms and the newly-establish Kingdom of Many-Arrows.
FTR, I don't think Alustriel's policies in this matter we so much appeasement, per se, as they were simple pacifism and desire to avoid unnecessary mass bloodshed (especially since they weren't sure that mass bloodshed would be repaid with victory), and though I didn't so much agree with her during The Hunter's Blades Trilogy whilst the orcs were still openly advancing and were an active threat to the Silver Marches, once The Orc King rolled around and Obould's advances stopped, Alustriel's ideas made more sense given the new circumstances.
After Obould dies then what? It would seem very unlikely that an orc kingdom that outnumbers the whole north 2-1 could possibly keep together and remain peaceful with them being as hostile as they are.
The orcs may out number the north 2-1 but when it comes down to being equipped they are inferior when it comes to all weaponry and armory. The Orcs have shamans and legions of ill equipped orcs and goblins, odds are the best items they have they picked off dead enemies. The humans and dwarves and elves have top of the line mithril armor and weapons, mages, clerics, druids, trained knights, barbarians, etc. The combined power of the north may be outnumbered 2-1 but they have guilds of mages and knights and clerics, elven archers and other powerful groups combining together.
I can easily see mages taking down scores of orcs one spell at a time. Elven archers picking off one orc every shot. Knights and dwarves hacking through the orc ranks. I wouldn't be surprised if the orcs got slaughtered. Just about anyone that is trained in the north could go head to head with an orc no problem and anyone specialized like a mage or a knight could easily kill a half a dozen.
As to 2:1 odds, 4:1 odds were considered pretty much essential to assure victory, anything less was fairly risky. The odds there tend to favor the defenders really, particularly when fighting from fortified and entrenched positions. To be honest though, I fail to see exactly why the Silver Marches hasn't marched to wipe Obould off the face of Abeir-Toril... well, beyond convenience to some plotline RAS has in mind.
And makes one wonder just what exactly the whole point of the Silver Marches alliance was to begin with... presuming it wasn't backdated to before that was formed. Sure, Alustriel is the type to completely ignore the political and military implications that defeat would result in... she is of course that stupid.
I could have sworn one of the main reasons for forming the Silver Marches was to defend against the swarms of orcs that consistantly harass the peoples of the region...
I guess those cities gave up their total independence for nothing.
How much can you possibly tolerate to try keep peace? If people keep her attitude then any large army has the ability to slowly steal land right away from people just as long as they remember to take a nice peaceful break after they scoop up more land on their plate before they return for seconds.
I was thinking the same thing.
2:1 odds aren't actually that great speaking from a military point of view. 4:1 odds were the preferred advantage, historically speaking.
Yes a 4:1 Ratio is the perferred for attacking a enemy. Attacking a entrenched enemy(like say a dwaven kingdom) would actualy require a higher ratio for a dream of success. But then RA Salavatore is not(it seems) even a amature student of military history.
Alot of people tend to forget that it is alot harder to attack a enemy that is very well fortfied (like say a dwarven kingdom).
Sorry 4:1 odds in favor of the orcs just meant they would loose that battle...especialy against a better armored, bettered equiped, a bettered trained, a better disciplined, and well a enemy back into a cornor that is heavily fortified...(and also with magic could be easily kept supplied via Silverymoon).
Personaly as a amature general I wouldn't attack unless I had 10:1 odds in my favor...even then I would expect a very long drawn out seige...and I wouldn't do so with orcs as my troop type either.
I'd tend to agree in spirit, even if I doubt most of them have mithril arms and armor. Regardless, still likely superior in quality to pretty much anything the orcs have in comparable numbers.
As to 2:1 odds, 4:1 odds were considered pretty much essential to assure victory, anything less was fairly risky. The odds there tend to favor the defenders really, particularly when fighting from fortified and entrenched positions. To be honest though, I fail to see exactly why the Silver Marches hasn't marched to wipe Obould off the face of Abeir-Toril... well, beyond convenience to some plotline RAS has in mind.
Simple, really.
If the armies of the Silver Marches were to march on the orcs, rather than the other way around, then that orc-to-silvermarcher ratio of 2:1 would flip to a silvermarcher-to-orc ratio of 1:2. If 2:1 is bad for attacking, 1:2 is infinitely worse... especially when you consider those fortified and entrenched positions...
Obould VS Bruenor is not 10:1 it is 20:1 to 40:1
Obould VS entire Silver Marches = 2:1
And you fail to count the giants and drow.
And as most of you are wondering what happens when Obould dies. Would he still be able to rally the orcs for peace...Yes...It has been written already that Obould VI is now present and is still maintaining the peace between orcs and dwarves.
Or maybe the main reason why the Silver Marches didn't attack the orcs now is because they see them as something innocent, forget the alignment, it's not like you can walk into somebody and say...'He's alignment is evil!! Kill HIm!". I'm sure that it was written in the book that FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, DARK ARROW WAS ABLE TO MAINTAIN PEACE BETWEEN ORCS AND DWARVES. I mean, why is peace between orcs so hard to make? Sure it'd last for 10-20 years for trust to swell....But a hundred years of peace, and still no trust?
And yes... I agree about the fact that if the positions are fortified and entrenched then there is a big chance for the attackers to loose even if the attacker outnumbers them 2:1. Which furthermore makes Alustriel intelligent for not trying to attack Dark Arrow....Dark Arrow'll pound the entire Silver Marshes forces if it's on the defensive.
As to most of you who are wondering...
Obould VS Bruenor is not 10:1 it is 20:1 to 40:1
Obould VS entire Silver Marches = 2:1
And you fail to count the giants and drow.
And as most of you are wondering what happens when Obould dies. Would he still be able to rally the orcs for peace...Yes...It has been written already that Obould VI is now present and is still maintaining the peace between orcs and dwarves.
Yes, Obould had his successors. Which is why anyone who actual read The Orc King would never have asked that question.
It's really not hard to imagine. Obould has shown himself to be quite the competent and able leader, and those around him would respond to that. Not all orcs are mindless concubines to Gruumsh One-Eye, after all. He's going to stir up quite as much support as he does dissension, and eventually he'll either have a son or else a loyal successor will take on his name and title and continue his work with the aid of Obould's supporting party. The Gruumsh cults are prominent in orc culture, but they aren't the only mind-set that's in there. Many an orc is tired of living in dark, damp holes and feasting on none-too-wholesome food, I'd imagine, so to that crowd Obould's way would seem particularly attractive.
And there is the whole Obould vs. Grguch debacle. We have this big conflict between a warmongering ogrillon (that's the word for a half-orc/half-ogre, yes? or is ogrillon more specialized than that?) and then we have the Gruumsh-blessed orc king on the other side of the boxing ring. And the moment the Gruumsh-blessed, uber-strong, cunning orc general-king wins the scuffle, he loudly proclaims that Grguch is dead, and that his way was not the right way.
To those who believed that Gruumsh was guiding the civilization along (or some simpler varient of that way of thinking), this would be no small observation. After Obould was blessed by the priests of Gruumsh, things notably picked up speed for the orcs. And then comes Grguch and the warmongering party saying that Obould has fallen from Gruumsh's path and all that, and Obould soundly thumps them. Need I paint a picture, or can you imagine what that looks like?
So all in all, by the end of The Orc King, it's clear that Obould Many-Arrows is no longer a sole island refuge in a raging ocean hurricane. Things are looking to pick up, though with Hralien's prologue mention of a battle between Drizzt and Obould II, it's obvious there's more to the story of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows than we have thus far, though we may not see any more of it until after the Transitions series is over.
Or maybe the main reason why the Silver Marches didn't attack the orcs now is because they see them as something innocent, forget the alignment, it's not like you can walk into somebody and say...'He's alignment is evil!! Kill HIm!". I'm sure that it was written in the book that FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, DARK ARROW WAS ABLE TO MAINTAIN PEACE BETWEEN ORCS AND DWARVES. I mean, why is peace between orcs so hard to make? Sure it'd last for 10-20 years for trust to swell....But a hundred years of peace, and still no trust?
Because for ages untold, orcs have been beastly enemies, that's why. Like the drow, sans the cool-factor. Trust isn't going to grow on trees in that relationship. I would certainly expect Silverymoon to be somewhat open to the idea that orcs can civilize themselves given the opportunity and a strong leader to whip the pests into action, but the rest of the Silver Marches--especially the dwarven settlements--would be generally less open to it. If Bruenor had not signed the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge as per Drizzt's prodding, things might have remained in a long-lived stasis of "hostile stalemate" rather than progressing to "uneasy truce."
For the record, one hundred years in the future, racism against the orcs is divided into the following basic categories, from what can be seen in the prologue and epilogue of The Orc King:
1 - Radical racism, a la KKK wannabes (that is, the Casin Cu Calas)
2 - Racists who are openly racist, but not CCC-radical.
3 - Veiled racist attitudes, as in those people who try to act non-racist but actually wind up being racist anyway (like the situation Obould IV mentions, the one where people tolerate behavior in orcs that they wouldn't in other races)
Just like real life, in other words.
But there are those, such as the by-then-enlightened Drizzt and his noble prologue sidekick... Hralien, I mean, not Guenhwyvar... who see the orcs for what they are, or at least, for what they have managed to become. (There's also a healthy amount of practicality in Drizzt's views--"Are you so eager for war?!") What the equality-to-racism ratio is at that time, we can't yet tell.
And yes... I agree about the fact that if the positions are fortified and entrenched then there is a big chance for the attackers to loose even if the attacker outnumbers them 2:1. Which furthermore makes Alustriel intelligent for not trying to attack Dark Arrow....Dark Arrow'll pound the entire Silver Marshes forces if it's on the defensive.
I beat ya to that one. ;)
Or maybe the main reason why the Silver Marches didn't attack the orcs now is because they see them as something innocent...
Suuuuuuure.
As to most of you who are wondering...
Obould VS Bruenor is not 10:1 it is 20:1 to 40:1
Obould VS entire Silver Marches = 2:1
And you fail to count the giants and drow.
I still don't think a army as chaotic as that has the will for a seige. If Bruenor wanted to go on the offensive then he is really a military moron.
Or maybe the main reason why the Silver Marches didn't attack the orcs now is because they see them as something innocent, forget the alignment, it's not like you can walk into somebody and say...'He's alignment is evil!! Kill HIm!". I'm sure that it was written in the book that FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, DARK ARROW WAS ABLE TO MAINTAIN PEACE BETWEEN ORCS AND DWARVES. I mean, why is peace between orcs so hard to make? Sure it'd last for 10-20 years for trust to swell....But a hundred years of peace, and still no trust?
Forget alignment and look at the history...1000's of years of attacks by orcs...and following on such attack that was beaten back they want peace? Sure they are trying to get more civilized but that really doesn't mean that they will get less warlike. Civivlation and peaceful attitudes don't go hand in hand. If nothing else a civilized society just gets even more capable of destruction.
So how is it a good idea to let a foe get more organized and a larger population. If there wasn't the political correct message attached to this story I would figure in about a hundred years the orc kingdom would sweep the Silver Marches away.
Whattabout Drizzt? Wasn't he able to win a trust that drow have a chance for change.
He had to work hard for what trust he gained, and even then drow are largely mistrusted on the surface (many people react with fear or suspicion around Drizzt until one of them suddenly snaps his finger and says, "Ah, Drizzit Dudden, I heared o' you!" And then things get real friendly real fast. :D ) Drizzt is regarded as an anomoly more than a standard, from what I can tell. But he does signify the potential for change, just as Obould (in a considerably more pragmatic way) signals the potential for change. The two cases are apples and oranges at heart, though. Obould isn't so much less cruel than the orcs, just more restrained and practical.
Destroy the orc leaders, and the system will fall apart. Even if you can't kill Obould, you can send in assassins to kill the people he trusts and who he uses to implement his rule over his people.
... those powerful clerics and mages should certainly prove useful in this regard.
I still don't think a army as chaotic as that has the will for a seige. If Bruenor wanted to go on the offensive then he is really a military moron.
Actually, Bruenor was right to do so. An attack against the Orcs will be costly but it has the potential for seriously damaging their otherwise extremely high moral.
Actually, Bruenor was right to do so. An attack against the Orcs will be costly but it has the potential for seriously damaging their otherwise extremely high moral.
That would depend on his plan though. His idea way back in the Crystal Shard was genius with the tunnels.
But nothing destroy a enemies morale like crashing against a fortified structure.
That would depend on his plan though. His idea way back in the Crystal Shard was genius with the tunnels.
But nothing destroy a enemies morale like crashing against a fortified structure.
That attack was against a rabble of badly-led mountain-dwelling nitwits with Akar Kessell as their leader. (That was redundant, I know.) We're talking Obould Many-Arrows and a significantly larger number of enemies, and led by one who was savvy enough before being blessed by Gruumsh to lead an army to victorious conquest of Citadel Felbarr. I don't think Bruenor's or any of the others' plans would be quite as effective against this particular foe.
Considering it was in orcish hands about 250 years or so, at least according to The North boxed set, I'd say it probably was a different Obould...
Well, that settles it.
Unless the current Obould has a secret long-lifespan or something.That attack was against a rabble of badly-led mountain-dwelling nitwits with Akar Kessell as their leader. (That was redundant, I know.) We're talking Obould Many-Arrows and a significantly larger number of enemies, and led by one who was savvy enough before being blessed by Gruumsh to lead an army to victorious conquest of Citadel Felbarr. I don't think Bruenor's or any of the others' plans would be quite as effective against this particular foe.
Then again the statement is still the same coz, it would be like.........
That attack was against a rabble of badly-led mountain-dwelling nitwits with Akar Kessell as their leader. (That was redundant, I know). We're talking Obould Many-Arrows and a significantly larger number of enemies, and led by one who was savvy enough before being blessed by Gruumsh (or maybe not), lead an army to victorious conquest against Mithril Hall. And was able to establish a Citadel on dwarf territories (definitely one in a million.) I don't think Bruenor's or any of the others' plans would be quite as effective against this particular foe.
Oh and BTW: About Obould's children killing Bruenor in the future. I don't think there's still evidence about that statement.
That would depend on his plan though. His idea way back in the Crystal Shard was genius with the tunnels.
But nothing destroy a enemies morale like crashing against a fortified structure.
You mean...Just like what Obould did to Bruenor?
And if it's not in dwarven territory, then why's Bruenor fussing so much about that Citadel standing? Or is it about a grand nature of a savage being's ability to take up revenge/or does he just wanna hack and slash every orc he meets? Maybe he doesn't trust them? Then again, if he doesn't trust them, all war breaks loose and we're back to where we started.
Orcs: Wugga wugga wugga!! We beat the crap out o you're ass
Dwarf: Why you!! You'll pay!! You'll surely pay!
Or maybe Bruenor wants to have a payback.
I really don't have a problem about dwarves making war against the orcs. But I do consider the fact that Dark Arrow will never fall to the trickeries and machinations of Mithril Hall.
I also noticed that RAS said that Obould wasn't his creation, and that he just copied his template from a campaign setting.
That is correct he was around in 2nd edition....though there was no stats for him back then.
I also noticed that even though the Shou army outnumbered the Tuigans' spellcasters by a hundred to one, and their advantages with gunpowder and whooppallowhoiee explosions were better than the Tuigan, they still lost to the Tuigan. So I don't see any reason why brute strength and numbers can't win against powerful divine magic.
The Thayans lost btw, 40 of their spellcasters died, and Batu lost more than half of his men. Still the Thayans outnumbered them, and they won.
I don't see any reason how Obould couldn't beat the Silver Marshes, since he has what Batu hasn't.
He outnumbers the SilverMarshes 2:1, he's got spellcasters and shamans, plus he has allies which will come to his aid, he is also a capable general like Batu.
So were the Red Wizards of Thay when they battled Batu in the pass. He had around 42 wizards and gnolls which numbered twice as many as Batu's men. Batu didn't have any spellcasters and the Thayans had over 50 griffins as reinforcements.
The Thayans lost btw, 40 of their spellcasters died, and Batu lost more than half of his men. Still the Thayans outnumbered them, and they won.
I don't see any reason how Obould couldn't beat the Silver Marshes, since he has what Batu hasn't.
He outnumbers the SilverMarshes 2:1, he's got spellcasters and shamans, plus he has allies which will come to his aid, he is also a capable general like Batu.
This why I hate the novels...simple put Batu should have lost that battle if it happened in game and not in a book where the authors want a story to happen a certain way. Batus won because it followed the storyline the author wanted it to. That is the only reason.
Also you forget that the Silver Marches have allies and can field a whole lot more then 42 spellcasters. Also the battle you described was one battle...that wasn't the war. If Batu proceeded to invade Thay he would have lost the second battle very badly...because of the spellcasters that Thay can marshal.
I also noticed that in the Tuigan campaigns, Yamun khahan had over 300,000 troops. And Obould's army from uniting the orcs numbered only to 50,000 orc troops. So I figured that it wouldn't be impossible for the orcs to muster up and army as huge as three hundred thousand (because orcs breed more rapidly than humans). I'm guessing there'r more orcs to recruit out there for Obould, plus the giants and trolls. More reason for Alustriel to be afraid of him. I think Bruenor fails to calculate the future consequences of his decisions in making the war.
I also noticed that even though the Shou army outnumbered the Tuigans' spellcasters by a hundred to one, and their advantages with gunpowder and whooppallowhoiee explosions were better than the Tuigan, they still lost to the Tuigan. So I don't see any reason why brute strength and numbers can't win against powerful divine magic.
Uh, Bruenor did not start the war, and if orcs truly do breed much faster than humans, that would be all the more reason for them to wipe all the tens of thousands of them off the land. If the Silvery Marchs where concerned about losing lives at 2-1 odds in a war, well pretty soon those odds are going to get far worse.
I asked this someway back in the thread and don't think it got answered (see Savage Frontier supplement), what about King Gral? Has he even been mentioned by Salvatore (I haven't read any of the more recent novels).
Not that I can recall.
Not that I can recall.
I see, that explains a lot....
even by now thunderspells is likely to be dead from old age.
durnan and mirt are likely the same dead or retired
the paladinson as well.
no i disagree with killing of drizzt, that would leave a sour taste in mouths just like another has.
good thing that wotc never said they were...
as another stated ignore the novels he is in.
anyway i never seen him past the borders of the marches,
im sorry but this thread is an eye sore to read from page 1 to page 14+
fall under his sway (though this includes the 40,000 orcs known to inhabit the Citadel of Many Arrows)'.
Question, how can any writer supposedly writing about northern western Faerun possibly overlook this little piece of pertinent information. Wait it's almost as if Salvatore didn't actually research the background material before writing the novel....? Nah, that must be a silly idea.
:DWhy would drizzit be so much of a problem? he's only like level 17! he's pathetic really. I'm not seeing why hes affecting your players so much seeing as a group of about 3 level 13s should have NO problem taking down him AND Guenhwyvar.
I see we need a refresher on what this thread was actually about before it got derailed, since we seem to have new people coming in and commenting without actually reading the entire thread (and thus not seeing mine and other posters efforts to clarify what the OP meant for those who can't see past the literal text).
The reasons given for "killing Drizzt" in the very first post are the same reasons given for killing off a host of other characters in the face of 4th Edition. The OP was pointing out the hypocrisy involved, not actually asking the designers to kill off Drizzt. (Drizzt will survive because he's a cash cow for WotC, not because he's any more worthy than any of the innumerable characters who will lose their lives in the transition to 4th Edition.)
OMG! They killed Chewbacca!?!
Years ago as far as I know...
Why would drizzit be so much of a problem? he's only like level 17! he's pathetic really.
Level 17 is not "pathetic".
Wasnt Graul in Sojurn? The name of the orc that lead the army of giants, goblins, orcs against Drizzt and Mooshie in Mooshies grove was named Graul. Was that the one and the same as the one you've mentioned?
Was that right? I don't remember it's been a long time since I read those books, it would be helpful if someone could clarify this. One thing for sure they didn't face off against 100,000 orcs in that battle.
Do not remember how it allwent in the book, but the graphic novel has Graul retreating so he doesnt die.
Years ago as far as I know...
CHEWIE!!!!! NOOOOO!!!!!
Wasnt Graul in Sojurn? The name of the orc that lead the army of giants, goblins, orcs against Drizzt and Mooshie in Mooshies grove was named Graul. Was that the one and the same as the one you've mentioned?
Aye, Graul was in Sojourn. Not directly, unless it was a brief appearance, but he was there. I'm planning on re-reading the Dark Elf Trilogy within the next month or two, so I'll know for sure then. It does refer to him as an "orc king," I recall that much.
In any case I know he does not die and I am prettycertain thats the only book he appears in.
Would be interesting what if Obould killed Graul and took kingship from him. Could be a start for Oboulds own book :P
Worse, one of my GMPCs actually spent skill points on "History of the Northern Orc Tribes." She HATES this stuff.
Thought balloon: I used to be a powerful ranger in the service of Meilikki. But now these hordes found kingdoms and societies, I barely have time to train the next generation of adventurers, and I never get to do any adventuring myself except in times of crisis dire. All I do is scribe, scribe, scribe. And these bookshelves? There used to be only 900 volumes of the History of the Northern Orc Tribes. Now there's 905. I should just move to Candlekeep, but then the Orcs would overrun this town....sigh...I'm going to need another bookshelf soon...
Could someone please tell me how THIS is fantasy?
no
-yeeeees!!!:P
18D;)
I don't get it. Never did, probably never will.
Why does everyone always want to kill Drizz't?
I don't get it. Never did, probably never will.
Author envy.
The original post was satire--it's poking fun at the complaints people have about the Chosen of Mystra by using Drizzt instead.
-Fifteen pages of actual debate on the matter- and many others- probably confuse the issue (in which many were lost from the beginning, mind you!). ;)
-Fifteen pages of actual debate on the matter- and many others- probably confuse the issue (in which many were lost from the beginning, mind you!). ;)
Oh, indeed. Which is why I put up another disclaimer.;)
The original post was satire--it's poking fun at the complaints people have about the Chosen of Mystra by using Drizzt instead.
Shhh! Don't be explaining it... it's funny how it's developed! :D
The original post was satire--it's poking fun at the complaints people have about the Chosen of Mystra by using Drizzt instead.
Glad I chose to read what the thread had deviated to than actually continuing to read from the first page.
Though, I certainly like the concept. Hunt The Hunter, as they say.
Glad I chose to read what the thread had deviated to than actually continuing to read from the first page.
-Numerous bits of wisdom would have been illuminated had you done so.
-Oh, I forgot to mention: It's DRIZZT. No apostrophe.
-Numerous bits of wisdom would have been illuminated had you done so.
And I would ask if you speak about wisdom concerning Drizzt or wisdom concerning certain peoples view of him?
-Oh, I forgot to mention: It's DRIZZT. No apostrophe.
Oh and, giggle, giggle, be nice. The guy is new here. Perhaps he is just LEARNING THE ROPES.
;)
And I would ask if you speak about wisdom concerning Drizzt or wisdom concerning certain peoples view of him?
-Worldly wisdom, really. Nothing specific. You'll just come out a better person for reading all of it.
Oh and, giggle, giggle, be nice. The guy is new here. Perhaps he is just LEARNING THE ROPES.
;)
-Just sayin'. It's easier to stop a habit sooner rather than later.
-Worldly wisdom, really. Nothing specific. You'll just come out a better person for reading all of it.
I was told that about the bible. I'm an even bigger
today because of it. -Just sayin'. It's easier to stop a habit sooner rather than later.
Well, with your newfound powers you can just expel any twirpling that chooses to use "uber" or "Drizz't" in a post. :D
Lets see...Wizard 5 check....Incantator(Incantatrix) 10 check....Archmage 5 check....Epic 2 check. One 9th and one 11th level spell? Got em! Cast Time Stop. Walk up and Slap Drizzt. Now we cast our 11th lvl spell. Twin that spell, then Maximize it, then Empower it, finally cast Fleshshiver. Cast some other spells and have fun watching Drizzt die.
Could use Gate to call in a Pit Fiend watch Drizzt die slowly. How about Mordenkainen's Disjunction followed by Dragon Shape and slowly killing him. Oh I could go on! What fun!
Kill! Kill! Kill! Die! Die! Die!- Old Orc saying.
I was told that about the bible. I'm an even bigger
-This is better than that.
Well, with your newfound powers you can just expel any twirpling that chooses to use "uber" or "Drizz't" in a post. :D
-Not exactly.
-This is better than that.
Well, when I find an acceptable place and time to drool, I'll be sure to start reading.
The original post was satire--it's poking fun at the complaints people have about the Chosen of Mystra by using Drizzt instead.
Thank you for clearing that up. I don't understand why people hate the Chosen of Mystra either but everyone's alloed their own opinion I guess.
...I guess.
Me, too. I guess. But peoples opinions who aren't my own really suck.
It's like they have a mind or something.
Thank you for clearing that up. I don't understand why people hate the Chosen of Mystra either but everyone's alloed their own opinion I guess.
Of course. And you're welcome.
Here are my thoughts...and I don't mean for this post to turn into a typical 4E hating rant...
The whole 4E thing along with the changes in the Forgotten Realms have left a bad taste in my mouth. WotC would have us believe that the vast majority wants everything simplified. The Forgotten Realms setting, to me at least, is like a well-kept row of flowers planted along a sidewalk. Yes you have to do some work on it every once in a while to keep everything looking nice and uniform...but said work is done gently and with the right tools. The 4E changes are like someone taking a giant scythe and swinging it madly until the previously mention flowers are all chopped and a shadow of their former selves.
The changes we are seeing didn't start with the introduction of 4E. I have been playing for about 16 years now...going all the way back to 1st and 2nd editions. It has taken several years for it to happen but the "ten second attention span" has finally taken its toll on the game. Dungeons and Dragons, as a game, is in a position where it is trying to compete with a number of other games...a competition that is far more fierce now than it was in the past. Think about it...a lot of people who played AD&D back in the mid 90s either played a whole lot less or quite entirely after Magic came out and became popular. It was a nice game to play that didn't require a DM (and the prep time that goes along with DMing) and it could be played when one or two players didn't show up for the night's RPG session. Eventually TSR was gobbled up by WotC...which shouldn't have been a shock to anyone at the time. Over time D&D had to adapt to compete with another beast...online RPGs like Everquest, WoW, Guild Wars, etc. They were a munchkin's wet dream when it came to character creation.
I understand WHY WotC is making some of the changes they are making to the game as a whole...and they are the same reasons for the changes to the Realms specifically. The "ten second attention span" has taken its toll by forcing the game makers to change the game to be more in-line with a lot of its competition. Quite frankly I think it stinks. Call me an old man...but it makes me sick to my stomach when I see people on these boards posting on character creation and how to make the "perfect build" and mapping out the entire thing. The entire concept reeks of "net decking" in Magic. The game becomes more about numbers and less about role playing, which is what made the game far more appealing than a 50-60 dollar video game.
The idea of 4E Realms being a "reboot" for the writers doesn't make much sense to me only because the authors of the novels will stop writing about those now long gone characters and just imagine up some new ones. In ten years the exact same "problem" will exist and people will be scratching their heads wondering what the heck went wrong. I agree with the OP and with Storm's many comments on here in that the excuses that were made for eliminating major characters could have easily applied to other major characters. There is nothing wrong with killing Drizzt. RAS could easily come up with another power character to entertain people with and to sell books with. While I have always believed that no character is "untouchable", I don't think it gives anyone, mostly WotC, the right to take the scythe to the flower bed. They DO sell pruning tools for a reason.
For the most part, Cormyr and Waterdeep sound mostly the same, and much of the "small" details are left as they were. Does the flavor of the Realms come from the big stuff, like Elminster and the Seven Sisters (which I never used personally in 15+ years of DMing the Realms) and big bad guys like Larloch and Ioulaum (also never used), or does the flavor come from the small stuff - all the minor happenings of Waterdeep, the back-street wheeling and dealing of rogues and merchant costers, the fact that Silvermoon is an island of civilization and culture in a rugged and wild North? Frankly, I think the Realms are in the small details.
The magic colleges of Silvermoon will still be there, just changed. Priests will still be priests. Warriors will still be warriors. All the ruins that have been well-picked over by 1385 will have had 100 years to attract new monsters and new cults/organizations. The wilderness between large cities will be "new" again, full of bandits and fresh things to explore. The North may have a new Orc kingdom do deal with, so power structures shift a little, but old hatreds die hard - elves and humans may still attack orcs on sight (and vice versa)... heck, you might even -play- an orc from the North in a new game.
Therise, it comes from everything. From Cormyrian farmer with pitchfork #5 to Elminster, the Seven Sisters and Larloch. FR is not FR without the Seven Sisters and all those characters that WotC dismissed so easely.
Not really. If you -really- think about it, you're actually arguing that my Realms wasn't actually the Realms. After all, I never once had my players encounter Elminster, the Seven Sisters, or Larloch. The difference is only in the mind.
Also, it's not like they've all been erased from the Realms entirely, they're just in the past. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it really is all in the mind.
Not really. If you -really- think about it, you're actually arguing that my Realms wasn't actually the Realms. After all, I never once had my players encounter Elminster, the Seven Sisters, or Larloch. The difference is only in the mind.
I have, that's why I mentioned them. And it's not required that the players meet them, just that they remain part of the current time lore.
Also, it's not like they've all been erased from the Realms entirely, they're just in the past. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it really is all in the mind.
That's the problem, they are in the past and not in the present, that for me makes the 4ed setting labelled ""Forgotten Realms"" a completely different thing.
I have, that's why I mentioned them. And it's not required that the players meet them, just that they remain part of the current time lore.
Why required? As people are fond of noting, once I've adopted the Realms (or once you do), you don't have to use every FR element. I can definitely have a Realms without ever using the Chosen, and it's still the Realms. Right?
I don't think anywhere in the FRCS does it say that any particular element is REQUIRED for an FR game.
That's the problem, they are in the past and not in the present, that for me makes the 4ed setting labelled ""Forgotten Realms"" a completely different thing.
So you use -every- canon FR element in every FR campaign or game? All the time?
Why required? As people are fond of noting, once I've adopted the Realms (or once you do), you don't have to use every FR element. I can definitely have a Realms without ever using the Chosen, and it's still the Realms. Right?
I don't think anywhere in the FRCS does it say that any particular element is REQUIRED for an FR game.
So you use -every- canon FR element in every FR campaign or game? All the time?
You are mixing oranges with apples. FR games have nothing to do with FR cannon. The first can be changed as much as any DM wants while the latter MUST be coherent and keep what defines it. The Forgotten Realms setting is defined by every piece that it has, from the lowest farmer to the greatest hero. 4ed killed many of those things, therefore it's not FR anymore, even when it resembles part of it.
You are mixing oranges with apples. FR games have nothing to do with FR cannon. The first can be changed as much as any DM wants while the latter MUST be coherent and keep what defines it. The Forgotten Realms setting is defined by every piece that it has, from the lowest farmer to the greatest hero. 4ed killed many of those things, therefore it's not FR anymore, even when it resembles part of it.
Why must the latter be kept unchanged? If you're encouraged to change the game to your liking, because "FR games have nothing to do with FR canon", then what's the difference?
Why must the latter be kept unchanged? If you're encouraged to change the game to your liking, because "FR games have nothing to do with FR canon", then what's the difference?
The cannon has to change, but in a consistent way. Almost everything made by WotC in FR is completely inconsistent with FR, starting with the SW, one of the worst offenders, continuing with the pletora of RSEs and the Spellplague as the final insult. ToT was also inconsistent with what FR was about, but TSR handled the setting much better than WotC and it was only made once.
That's ironic, since WotC made the best transition, from 2nd to 3rd, by simply advancing a little the timeline and making an updated CS. That's what they should've done with 4ed. Advance the timeline until 1383 DR and include in the CS everything that happened in 3ed. That's consistent and keeps the evolving feeling of FR, instead of this massive destruction made to appease Mystra haters and lazy developers.
I dunno, until recently I shared a lot of your opinions wtsutton. The changes they're making were big and a little shocking, definitely. But taking a look at the smaller picture, they left a lot of things nearly untouched. They did "prune out" a number of big plants and weeds, but I don't think it's accurate to say they took a scythe to the whole flowerbed.
For me, the problem is that the plants that were pulled where the ones I liked the most.
John was basically asking if peopel hate high level, annoying NPCs why is Drizzt still around. He does not have a dislike for drow or Drizzt in general, he just thought the dislike for some NPCs is silly. I do as well but I can understand why people feel the way they do.
Well, I don't blame RAS directly because Drizzt fanbase is too high and too costly sale novel wise to kill off. I mean, look what happen to Wulf-Gar, he was the least of the liked characters from RAS and still brought back out of fan-crying.
For me, the problem is that the plants that were pulled where the ones I liked the most.
To me it seems like the same feeling a person has when they come up with a really good deck for Magic and then the rotation hits and a lot of the cards that made it effective are no longer legal for tournament play. Yea, the company may offer up something else that WotC says is a suitable replacement, but it really isn't and the deck suffers. (The EXACT reason why I refuse to play Magic anymore...the rotation for tournament play has turned it into a money pit and my 17 month old daughter needs to eat something other than green cards and forests that I will never use.)
In this case WotC starts messing with one of the game's more popular settings. I think that, in most cases, DMs running campaigns in the Forgotten Realms put more time into things like writing and prep work and studying up on lore because they want to communicate the "flavor" of the setting so it doesn't feel generic like other settings. And when the company comes in and uproots everything that you have worked hard to create, the knee jerk reaction is even worse in the Realms because it requires so much more work to fix. WotC should have picked a different setting for an overhaul of this magnitude. For the most part, Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk should be considered "tinker with at your own risk" at company headquarters. Yes, Greyhawk is a more generic setting than the Realms, but the setting is so old and there are so many long-running campaigns still being played there that is just better not to mess with it too, too much.
People can tell those of us upset with the changes that we can just "not buy the books" and continue doing what we were doing. The problem is one of the greatest things that drew us to playing FR campaigns was the fact that there was so much fluff to make it feel real. We had an incredible amount of fluff sourcebooks for a long time (2nd Ed was great for this) and, lets face it, the plethora of FR novels are ultimately even more fluff to be used. If we just pass on the 4E FR books, we lose new sources of fluff that help us advance the world. It is like being completely in love with hot fudge sundae's at DQ. The hot fudge there is incredible. We love the sundaes there! And then the company goes and changes the way it makes the hot fudge and the taste of it sucks. Is it still a sundae? Sure. But now it just doesn't seem right because it isn't what we fell in love with. Can we just go get a sundae from another business? Of course. Heck...we can keep getting them from DQ. But deep down inside we will continue to pine for what was. The flavor of the fluff is changing.
Somewhere the numbskulls who came up with the ideas for "New Coke" and "Crystal Pepsi" are shaking their heads wondering when people will learn.
Edit to add: I'm not saying that this is the case here with the FR changes but sometimes good things get ruined by people who feel the need to make changes to jusitfy the paycheck they receive. I have been in the radio industry for 12+ years and I can't tell you how many program directors I have seen screwing with things they shouldn't be messing with for no other reason than to simply to show the folks upstairs that they are putting forth effort on a daily basis. Again...I'm not implying that that is what happened here...but, if it is...STAY OUT OF MY FLOWER GARDEN! lol.