The Theory of the Weave and Other Magic of the Realms - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 meldread Dec 07, 2008 18:56:48	Let us say you're a powerful scholarly archwizard of the Realm's. You're approached by an individual who wishes to become your apprentice. How would such an individual go about explaining the Weave and other magic in the Realm's to such an individual? More accurately phrased: Exactly how much knowledge does a character who uses and studies the Weave -reasonably- possess about the Weave itself? Do they know about raw magic? Explain the following: * Spells-per day. * Spell circles (cantrips and spell levels 1-9). * Spell Schools. * Meta-magic. * How the Weave functions on a very basic level. Ignore the existence of the Shadow Weave for a moment. That's a secret, and we'll assume that this wizard in question knows nothing about it. Keep it simple. I have my own answers to the above questions, but I'd like to hear the theories / ideas / opinions of others first before sharing them. Obviously this is all pre-4E lore.
#2 suin_bahhar_02 Dec 07, 2008 20:22:02	Let us say you're a powerful scholarly archwizard of the Realm's. You're approached by an individual who wishes to become your apprentice. How would such an individual go about explaining the Weave and other magic in the Realm's to such an individual? More accurately phrased: Exactly how much knowledge does a character who uses and studies the Weave -reasonably- possess about the Weave itself? Do they know about raw magic? I love theorizing and imagining how that would be like to learn basic "training in the Art". One can mostly assume an apprentice would already have basic experience with sensing and using the weave when they approach a mentor. But mechanicly it all starts with the cantrip read magic. Without it one cant write down or read magic formulae so perhaps there are tomes out there which help fledling wizards-to-be understand basic magic by learning to recognize arcane symbols by heart. The meaning of those symbols are thought from mentor to apprentice through extensive sessions of shared read magic cantrips. Explain the following: * Spells-per day. The mind can only store so much of the mental formulae for weaving spells (i.e. arcane symbols) that rest is needed to give the mind enough resistance to the wild surges of "weave enhanced thought processes". Upon memorizing spells the mind gets infused with the weave, and long exposure is known to give spiltting head aches. The thoughts to control ones mind if exposed to the weave at the time of memorizing are widespread methods of high mages, and consequently they usually walk around with a lot of more potential weave energy. More spells are memorized if more control is taken at the time of storing the formulae to mind. Certain weave keys and catalysts allow for an easier time of catagorising and locking spells. Only through personal research the mind can grow to have more finesse with manipulating thoughts to store spells. Once the weave has passed through the "mental door" to your mind that a spell makes, repeating that thought after the casting will give a splitting headache, as if the arcane symbol is seared in to the mental picture of your thoughts. * Spell circles (cantrips and spell levels 1-9). A spell from a higher spellcircle or spell level involves so much symbolism to lock in the mind they take up more arcane symbols to write and memorize. * Spell Schools. The weave can be used to different effects by the applications of the practisioners of the schools of magic. They all have distinctive somatic, verbal and material symbols for manipulating the weave just so. * Meta-magic. The weave can be further manipulated by modify exisiting spellformulae with personal (verbal and mental) symbols to let the weave enhance a spell just so. * How the Weave functions on a very basic level. A spell is literally woven from the threads of the weave, only the weaves material is invisible to the naked eye. Through weaving somatic components in the air the threads become visible to the caster (when seen from the ethereal or through a detect magic spell those threads would be visible to all as magic windstreams) and mental hooks and pulls make sure the shaping of the weave energy goes as intended. Sometimes the material and verbal componenets make the working of the fueling of the weave into a spell visible in minor splashes of blueish and red colour.
#3 faraer Dec 07, 2008 21:24:22	Some partial answers: A mage of middling Art will understand the Weave and its flows much better than she can put into language. Beyond a certain point of consensus, attempts to describe the Weave become poetry, theology and hard-to-verify scholarly theory. Realmslore generally doesn't use the term 'raw magic', and the energies manipulated by the Art aren't some special power source separate from the physical world, but the same flows and networks of energy that underlie it. D&D spell levels and exact memorization limits are an approximation and an abstraction of a more complex in-Realms reality. One of the best ways to understand spell memorization is to go to Vance's Dying Earth books, which were an inspiration for Realms magic even before D&D. The 2E spell schools also aren't prominent in Realmslore, and wizards tend to mentally group spells not by school but by function: battle-spells and various subgroups, movement magics, mind-affecting spells, healing, warding, and so on -- though some of these categories coincide with the schools, especially necromancy and illusion. Metamagic is an integral part of spell-casting: so much so that the Realms term for metamagic is probably simply 'Art'. Learning to control the energies of the Weave and shape spells involves the ability to alter them creatively in a range of ways, and through the use of special magics created to modify and combine with other spells.
#4 meldread Dec 07, 2008 21:44:47	That's interesting, Suin Bahhar. It seems rather different than how I imagined it working. That's cool. I hope others also come up with different interpretations. I'll try and explain how I imagine it working: Exactly how much knowledge does a character who uses and studies the Weave -reasonably- possess about the Weave itself? Do they know about raw magic? All wizards, even first level wizards, understand the existence of raw magic (or "pure magic") and the basic functions of the Weave. This knowledge is necessary in order to properly work the Weave and spells. * How the Weave functions on a very basic level. Raw Magic: This is the fundamental building block that makes up everything in the multiverse. Very little is understood about raw magic outside of its existence. At a basic level it replaces things such as particles and atoms in our world. Those thing's don't exist in the Forgotten Realms. If you could see an FR particle with the naked eye, you'd be viewing raw magic. Magic: Magic is the act of literally shaping and altering the raw magic to create a desired effect. It allows you to bend time and space, to bring something into existence that did not previously exist, or transform something already in existence into something else. There are only two limitations placed upon a wizard: his imagination and his potential. The Weave: The Weave exists on Toril to allow wizards (and other arcanists) to manipulate raw magic. It is merely a conduit. To use a real world parallel, it's a bit like data on a hard drive and an operating system. It is possible for the data on your hard drive to be wholly intact, but for your operating system to fail. The Weave is like the operating system, and it occasionally fails for various reasons (wild magic / dead magic zones). Raw magic is like the data that is stored, and it is rarely, if ever corrupted. This is why things still continue to exist in a dead magic zone. Threads: The Weave is made up of threads. Every spell draws upon a number of threads to create a desired effect. To use a real world analogy threads represent atom's / particles, which is to say in FR lingo, threads represent the various states of raw magic. Example: One thread might control temperature, and another thread might control the element. So a wizard tweaking a spell could increase the heat of his fireball, or may change the element to water which would create steam instead of fire. Bringing the lingo together: Spells are called Weavings, and Weavings are made up of threads that represent the various states of raw magic. * Spells-per day. Weaving a spell is complicated. You need absolute concentration and focus. Any interruption could cause failure. It also takes time. I rule that it takes 10 minutes + 5 minute per spell level to Weave a spell. Cantrips take 5 minutes to Weave. The Wizard "weaves" his or her spells in advance and then quickly releases them with key words and gestures at the desired time. There is also a limit upon how much arcane energy you can actively have surrounding you at any one time. More advanced arcanists can control more arcane energy, while less advanced arcanists need to control less. If you try and control more it almost always results in disastrous consequences. * Spell circles (cantrips and spell levels 1-9). Spells are divided up into circles based upon the difficulties of the Weavings and the amount of threads and arcane energy involved. Cantrips are the simplest, with ninth circle being the most difficult. Mystra banned magic above ninth circle, and it has now become epic magic. What this basically means is that she no longer allows wizards to bind Weavings around themselves of spells more complex or powerful than ninth circle. They are cast in a more traditional form (the way a spell would typically be cast if a wizard could not bind the Weave around themselves). * Spell Schools. Spell Schools are a construction by Wizards who specialize in a particular set of threads and Weavings. Those who specialize in transmutation, for example, study the threads most dedicated to that specialization. The Weave itself does not "understand" the concept of spell schools, it is simply an artificial construction by Wizards to better focus their education and study. * Meta-magic. Meta-magic is the study of particular threads that allow you to enhance a spell in certain obvious ways, such as enhancing duration or power. --- That is how I imagine the Weave and Magic working on a very basic level. These would be things all wizards would know pretty much from first level forward. I am interested in other people's imagining / interpretation of the Weave.
#5 suin_bahhar_02 Dec 07, 2008 23:31:10	The most striking difference in your interpretation is you defined raw magic as the source, and the weave as the medium. I like to definition of raw magic as fantasy atoms, the "natural building blocks" of the prime material plane and its life. Raw magic is supposedly dangerous, especially to mortals such as an apprentice wizard. If raw magic is so widespread, how come they learn to control those energies and forces with such careful growth and dont overuse the abundant raw magic in explosive and uncontrolled manner? Perhaps the weave IS the solution here as well. Mystra enables practical magic by collecting the incoming arcane energies from all life in the multiverse and that generated by Toril and its inhabitants into this web of the weave. Strands of this web can be sensed and caught with arcane formulae and component triggers into the desired spells. Strange though why raw arcane magic has trouble healing a person if its so closely linked to life energy. Torils planet will give any caster a nice warm feeling on first arrival. The weave gives casters a means to work magic without the usual burns and curses as it makes raw magic more manageable for casters to harness. I am even inclined to allow arcane casters on Toril to make their spells more personal with little visual flourishes of thier own as those kinds of maniplations come easier when tapping for arcane energy through the weave.
#6 lord_karsus Dec 08, 2008 10:17:45	-I've always seen 'Raw Magic' as ambient radiation (Not in the literal sense. In the metaphorical sense), with the Weave being the radiation suit you put on to protect yourself from harm, so that you can interact with it.
#7 Stigger Dec 08, 2008 15:47:01	How would such an individual go about explaining the Weave and other magic in the Realm's to such an individual? More accurately phrased: Exactly how much knowledge does a character who uses and studies the Weave -reasonably- possess about the Weave itself? Do they know about raw magic? About the Weave itself? Almost nothing from an objective point of view I'd say. From the commonly held interpretations, probably quite a bit. An issue of semantics perhaps, but I tend to view arcane scholarship as being highly semantical, so... as to knowing about raw magic, probably the widely held beliefs about it. How firmly that belief might be held, and how open-minded they are about new discoveries probably varies individual to individual. Explain the following: * Spells-per day. The ability to harness discrete amounts of magical energy, shaping them into useable effects. As experience increases, greater amounts of energy can be shaped and harnessed at specific magnitudes of power and function. * Spell circles (cantrips and spell levels 1-9). Seemingly naturally occuring magnitudes of magical energy that can be shaped by spellcasters of various degrees of accomplishment and understanding. There is some variance to exact facility (explaining certain feats), and items that can increase capacity, but they tend to fall within certain predictable norms. * Spell Schools. Somewhat arbitrarily named descriptors of various flavors of magical energy, generally corresponding to the types of uses and effects that the specific energy flavors are best suited to. Certain effects resonate with more than one type of energy (as per the PHBII), and certain flavors can be further refined in their definition as evidenced with subschools and descriptors. While not concretely defined, they are useful to reference against when it comes to counters and defenses. * Meta-magic. Subtle and not-so-subtle manipulations of magical energy to the base of specific magical effects to enhance or alter the way in which they function or affect the world. Depending on both the nature of the manipulation and the individual skill of the caster, they can have dramatic effect at the expense of increasing the magnitude of the energies involved in the casting. * How the Weave functions on a very basic level. It describes the ebb and flow of magical energy throughout Abeir-Toril, and partially describes the best approximation we can make for providing an image to reference it by. While no single word could ever describe all of magic, its the best we have, and appropriate on several levels. One could look at it as describing the 'tapestry' that all of the various types of magical energy create when viewed as a magical whole, rather than as the discrete elements we tend to look at them as. Its also a useful metaphor for looking at the way it infuses the land, and the way it can be concentrated or diffused that makes it much more comprehendable to the commoner than more appropriate arcane terminology, happily also fulfilling Mystra's directive to make them less fearful of Art. All in all, its also a useful metaphor in general when it comes to describing the way in which magic is harnessed and channeled through mortal hands, be it Arcane of Divine in nature, likening the casting of a spell to weaving a tapestry or other work of artistry. Ignore the existence of the Shadow Weave for a moment. I do that most of the time anyway. :D Not great, but time and effort limit how much I'm willing to go into those answers.
#8 suin_bahhar_02 Dec 08, 2008 17:16:06	Whoa.. All in all, its also a useful metaphor in general when it comes to describing the way in which magic is harnessed and channeled through mortal hands, be it Arcane of Divine in nature, likening the casting of a spell to weaving a tapestry or other work of artistry. At first I thought you meant that someone who weaves tapestries or bakes pots draws on the weave as well. But you used the comparision as a metaphore too. :phew So weaving a spell is like knitting (or crafting baskets);). Seems more something a hag would do... When a spell is memorized the weaving is done to balance the mindtrigger for calling on the weave for its magical energy. Colour coding the schools of magic would be a flavourfull way of making drawing upon the weave a distinctive and recognisable action. Is it possible to use detect thoughts or read mind effects to see spells that are memorized? P.S. I am intended to agree that not all wizards (and certainly a large amount of sorcerers) know what raw magic is. Most would just know the weave threads make their magic just work. Upon getting to esotheric spells like spell mantles, plane shifting and other higher energy spells a mage learns to look past the weave and manipulate raw magic.
#9 lord_karsus Dec 08, 2008 17:30:29	-The 'Weave' part can be metaphorical, with magicians 'weaving' threads of ambient magic together, to produce spells. Also, with them weaving their hands through the air, literal in that sense, as well.
#10 suin_bahhar_02 Dec 08, 2008 17:56:47	I like that handwaving works as actually pulling magic threads out of the weave. The actual time to make a simple spell like a magic missile takes quite short with experience. When looked at in slow motion a thread of magic is pulled by the somatic component from the weave and the target is made with the verbal components.
#11 Stigger Dec 08, 2008 18:59:59	Well, one could say that the War Weaver from Heroes of Battle would work in nicely with the Realms as far as fluff goes, even if it is a 'generic' PrC. As to a literal comparison to weaving... sure it could work. I tend to view the matter as ultimately subjective to the individual caster, who would use whatever explanation they either came up with or were taught by, as the focusing of the magic. That also works in conceptually with the idea that it takes time and effort to decipher the spellbooks of unfamiliar casters, as well as the optional idea that students of the same master/academy would have an easier time deciphering a colleagues than they would a stranger's. Ultimately I'd say there were almost as many answers to those questions as there were spellcasters... certain similarities, sure, but each with a unique take on the Weave and how magic works. As to using mental effects to read someones spell roster... I'd tend to say yes and no. I would think it would be very difficult for a psionic to do so, the inverse being true as well, since I'd tend to rule that psionics and 'magic' were fundamentally different and difficult to discern unless the person doing it also had levels in a spellcasting (or manifesting) class. Were it arcane mind-reading versus arcane spells, then sure, but I'd probably have it require a caster level check to initiate unnoticed, and a spellcraft check at a fairly high DC to decipher the spells unless the targets 'style' was known from a spellbook or something. With the literal 'weaving' of magic... I'd find that hard to rectify with things like Stilled spells, and probably bar a player who used that style from taking that feat if it came up, since it would clash with a fundamental concept of the character... at least without some in-game character development in that direction. Which again ties into my conceptualization that each spellcaster is ultimately unique in their approach to magic and the way they conceptualize and practice it... just makes it feel more magical and less rote scientific to me to think of it in those terms.
#12 meldread Dec 08, 2008 21:19:08	The most striking difference in your interpretation is you defined raw magic as the source, and the weave as the medium. To my understanding raw magic is canonically the source of the power for the Weave. Before 4th Edition canonically, mortals could not manipulate raw magic although it was believed that deities could. This was either because it was too dangerous / unstable, or that it was simply impossible (as if it was "frozen"). The Weave simply acted as a conduit, a set of metaphysical laws, that allowed an individual to manipulate the raw magic. It's a bit like programming. The only real language a computer understands is Binary Code (1's and 0's), but it is -extremely- difficult to program in Binary, so programmers invented other programming languages that are easier to work with and understand. The Weave would be comparable to something like Python or Java - easy to understand and accessible to a large number of people. That's how I've always understood it, but I could be wrong. ------------ I envision the Weave as a number of threads that represent various "states" of Raw Magic. When you create a spell you're literally "Weaving" threads of magic. You say a word or phrase linked to a particular thread and "weave" it with your mind - though this is difficult so many wizards use their hands to make gestures. You might think of it kinda like counting on your fingers. You don't need your fingers to count, but it's helpful sometimes. Using the Still spell metamagic feat means you've effectively learned to Weave certain threads mentally, without the aid of gestures. Using the Silent spell metamagic feat means you've so closely studied the Weave that you can mentally "call out" the names of certain threads and begin Weaving them almost naturally. By the time you're an epic level wizard you can begin to start taking feats like automatic still spell and automatic silent spell, representing your vast understanding of the Weave and your ability to manipulate it with your mind, no longer needing the crutch of words and gestures.
#13 faraer Dec 09, 2008 8:00:06	To my understanding raw magic is canonically the source of the power for the Weave. More precisely, as I mentioned above, the Weave harnesses natural energies: the Weave, in turn, is our mortal name for the flows of natural energy we call “magic” because we can harness it (spells, spell-like powers, psionics, et al being the ways in which we accomplish that harnessing), that permeate Toril and are an integral part of all life in, on, and in the atmosphere of Toril. The idea of the weave has been part of the Realms from the very beginning. It was my way of viewing and understanding “the interconnectedness of all things” in my world, the ways in which magic and all natural forces (kinetic energy, the weather cycle, tides, sunlight, etc.) were linked and interacted together. The name “Weave” was introduced (I believe) by Julia Martin of TSR and now Wizards, as the way folk of Faerun described these interwoven forces.
#14 meldread Dec 09, 2008 16:28:11	Faraer- I consider raw magic to be the total sum and base building block of all natural energies and the Weave to be a tool / conduit which was used to manipulate them. I believe raw magic plays an important role in my theory because of how other magic works on Toril. We have many different types of magic: table magic, gem magic, rune magic, true naming, the two magical types from Maztica, and likely countless others that we simply don't know about. Let's not forget Psionics. How is it that the Weave can have certain interactions with psionic magic? My theory is that -all- magic, regardless to how it is wielded, at it's heart is in some way manipulating raw magic. The Weave functions as a conduit to shape and use raw magic easily. The Mind functions as a conduit to shape and use raw magic easily - for Psionics. It's what makes the most sense to me, in the end, and it helps explain how other forms of magic exist outside of the existence of the Weave. It even moves toward explaining how magic functions without the Weave in 4th Edition.
#15 faraer Dec 09, 2008 22:49:09	Yup, that's about how it is. As you may know, there's a lot about the metaphysics of magic and the Weave in Ed's novels and his Candlekeep replies -- more detailed information than the sometimes misleading summaries in Magic of Faerûn.
#16 vladhslavh Dec 10, 2008 13:24:58	My opinion has come to me in one of those wild brainstorms the other day, thought I could share it, it amused me at least, don't believe it hold any ground in cannon. Sorry if the English sounds a bit crude. * How magic functions on a very basic level. Show Mind over matter is not as simple as it sounds, it's indeed particularly bothersome in our realms, why? You see, some planes have in then an inbuilt mystic property, as if in its deepest cores some kind of energy echoed untamed causing what is known as chaos, this energy i theorise about (and only theorise mind you, there is no proof nor deny to any of this) is an actual imprint of the living creatures will. Strange at first I know but think about it this way, every time a being is pushed under it's limits, every time it does what seems to be impossible, every time it imposes her very will against another being, he is imprinting in his surroundings an echo of that moment, notice how whenever you're close to someone sad you tend to become as sad? that is what I call a 'personality echo' those echoes as soon as released will roam the world until it confront itself against an even stronger echo and is either destroyed or absorbed into the others essence, that is where magic come from, the power to absorb those roaming echoes of personality with your own and harness their will to your own. Those echoes as i said before have the power to subsume reality itself but only in a certain way, one can get influenced by then to do something he would not otherwise, one could gather strength from seemingly nowhere and overcome a foe far stronger, and that is the power in your hands, the power to shape your surroundings by absorbing and using those tools in large enough amounts that their powers are far superior than they should be, and their effects are actually controlled by the wearer of them.
#17 suin_bahhar_02 Dec 19, 2008 12:12:27	Interesting thoughts. Especially like the "echo's of will" hypothesis. Well done.
#18 vladhslavh Jan 08, 2009 3:39:42	Interesting thoughts. Especially like the "echo's of will" hypothesis. Well done. Glad you like it, I tend to wonder to far for people tastes :P
#19 wychlorne Jan 14, 2009 12:41:47	I've never liked how nobody seems to appreciate the difference between wizards and sorcerers in 3.5. Wizards, on the one hand, study magic in the form of arcane formulas and incantations. Sorcerers tap into their own inherent ability to channel the Weave. To me, sorcerers are far more magical, and if I were to be thrown into a D&D fantasy world like they were in Bender's Game, I would love to be a sorcerer and not a wizard. That being said, the cosmological and metaphysical theorizations and postulates that can be created for magic are tantamount to our modern pursuit of theoretical and experimental physics, and I think that a life as a wizard could be quite fulfilling in terms of intellectual growth. If I were to multiclass into a wizard and take on an apprentice in that respect (sorcery cannot be taught, wizardry, however...), I would probably teach them magic in a way that resembles a gestalt study of both theoretical and experimental physics. I'd start with the Weave. The Weave surrounds and suffuses everything. It is raw magic that is difficult to shape to your need. Some learn to shape it with formulas and theories, others by sheer force of personal power. The former being wizards, who channel the Weave in a delicate art (the Art), and the latter being sorcerers, who have inherent magical aptitude. The practice of magic is the practice of channeling the Weave. Though divine spellcasters, such as clerics and druids, draw their inspiration from the gods, their spells are also channeled through the Weave. The difference between arcane spellcasting (the Art) and divine spellcasting (the Power) is related to the drastically different approaches. Arcane spellcasters channel the Weave through mortal-devised means, divine spellcasters channel the Weave through borrowed power from their patron deity. The Weave is not without sentience, however. Mystra, the goddess of magic, is the sentient extension and keeper of the Weave. She alone has complete power over it, and by that token can shape it to her will, or even sever someone's connection or block their access to it. With this power comes enormous responsibility, however. Because of the number of people utilizing the Weave, it is prone to fraying. These tears can only be mended by Mystra. As I already mentioned, arcane spellcasters channel the Weave in the form of the Art. This delicate process is very time (and energy) consuming, and powerful spells can sometimes leave the caster temporarily weakened, or even have backlash effects. In general, however, most people never even learn to cast a single cantrip, let alone become powerful enough to channel the amount of magic necessary to cast spells of such enormous potential. Those who do are still bound by the mortal coil and can only summon enough energy to perform a certain number of spells per day. Because sorcerers don't need to prepare their spells ahead of time, they have more energy to devote to actually casting their spells than wizards, who may only prepare and cast a limited number. As such, they can cast more spells in a day than a wizard can, and are also more versatile in any given situation because of their ability to cast anything they know. The drawback to this is that sorcerers must learn their spells through self-exploration and their own intuition, whereas wizards can easily assemble a large repertoire from rigorous study and sharing their findings with their peers. Thus, while not able to cast as many spells per day as sorcerers, and having to risk not preparing the proper spells for the challenges they will face, wizards almost always have a larger selection to choose from when preparing, which, if properly planned, can allow for a wizard prepared for any situation. It's at this point that I have to stop, because I cannot go on to the ridiculousness of spell slots in the system devised for wizards and sorcerers. In my opinion psionics have the right approach: a pool of points to spend on different powers of varying levels of strength. If you aren't powerful enough to manifest powers with more potential, you can't know anything more than the basic ideas comprising them. As you grow in power, however, the pieces fall into place, and you become more proficient at psionics and are able to manifest them. When you run out of power points you are, essentially, 'burned out', unless you've devoted time to conditioning your body to continue by sacrificing some of your practice at manifesting (the difference between a psion and a psychic warrior). I still believe, however, that the 3.5 system for wizards and sorcerers is far (FAR) superior to the 4E system if not only for the sake of simplicity. The maximum level of spell a wizard can cast is 1/2 his caster level as a wizard rounded up (ex. 17th level wizard can cast 9th level spells, whereas an 8th level wizard can only cast 4th level spels). The maximum level a sorcerer can cast is 1/2 his level rounded down (meaning he can cast 9th level spells when he reaches 18th level, not 17th). This is far more sensible than "gain some at-wills here and a new encounter power every other level and a new daily at every level divisible by pi". You know what? **** that. How do you explain that in a textualization? This is why I hate 4th edition. Anyways I'm going to stop because I'm at risk of de-railing the thread with this recurring tangent.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

meldread

Dec 07, 2008 18:56:48

Let us say you're a powerful scholarly archwizard of the Realm's. You're approached by an individual who wishes to become your apprentice. How would such an individual go about explaining the Weave and other magic in the Realm's to such an individual?

More accurately phrased: Exactly how much knowledge does a character who uses and studies the Weave -reasonably- possess about the Weave itself? Do they know about raw magic?

Explain the following:
* Spells-per day.
* Spell circles (cantrips and spell levels 1-9).
* Spell Schools.
* Meta-magic.
* How the Weave functions on a very basic level.

Ignore the existence of the Shadow Weave for a moment. That's a secret, and we'll assume that this wizard in question knows nothing about it. Keep it simple.

I have my own answers to the above questions, but I'd like to hear the theories / ideas / opinions of others first before sharing them.

Obviously this is all pre-4E lore.

suin_bahhar_02

Dec 07, 2008 20:22:02

Let us say you're a powerful scholarly archwizard of the Realm's. You're approached by an individual who wishes to become your apprentice. How would such an individual go about explaining the Weave and other magic in the Realm's to such an individual?

More accurately phrased: Exactly how much knowledge does a character who uses and studies the Weave -reasonably- possess about the Weave itself? Do they know about raw magic?

I love theorizing and imagining how that would be like to learn basic "training in the Art". One can mostly assume an apprentice would already have basic experience with sensing and using the weave when they approach a mentor. But mechanicly it all starts with the cantrip read magic. Without it one cant write down or read magic formulae so perhaps there are tomes out there which help fledling wizards-to-be understand basic magic by learning to recognize arcane symbols by heart. The meaning of those symbols are thought from mentor to apprentice through extensive sessions of shared read magic cantrips.

Explain the following:
* Spells-per day.

The mind can only store so much of the mental formulae for weaving spells (i.e. arcane symbols) that rest is needed to give the mind enough resistance to the wild surges of "weave enhanced thought processes". Upon memorizing spells the mind gets infused with the weave, and long exposure is known to give spiltting head aches. The thoughts to control ones mind if exposed to the weave at the time of memorizing are widespread methods of high mages, and consequently they usually walk around with a lot of more potential weave energy. More spells are memorized if more control is taken at the time of storing the formulae to mind. Certain weave keys and catalysts allow for an easier time of catagorising and locking spells. Only through personal research the mind can grow to have more finesse with manipulating thoughts to store spells. Once the weave has passed through the "mental door" to your mind that a spell makes, repeating that thought after the casting will give a splitting headache, as if the arcane symbol is seared in to the mental picture of your thoughts.

* Spell circles (cantrips and spell levels 1-9).

A spell from a higher spellcircle or spell level involves so much symbolism to lock in the mind they take up more arcane symbols to write and memorize.

* Spell Schools.

The weave can be used to different effects by the applications of the practisioners of the schools of magic. They all have distinctive somatic, verbal and material symbols for manipulating the weave just so.

* Meta-magic.

The weave can be further manipulated by modify exisiting spellformulae with personal (verbal and mental) symbols to let the weave enhance a spell just so.

* How the Weave functions on a very basic level.

A spell is literally woven from the threads of the weave, only the weaves material is invisible to the naked eye. Through weaving somatic components in the air the threads become visible to the caster (when seen from the ethereal or through a detect magic spell those threads would be visible to all as magic windstreams) and mental hooks and pulls make sure the shaping of the weave energy goes as intended. Sometimes the material and verbal componenets make the working of the fueling of the weave into a spell visible in minor splashes of blueish and red colour.

faraer

Dec 07, 2008 21:24:22

Some partial answers:

A mage of middling Art will understand the Weave and its flows much better than she can put into language. Beyond a certain point of consensus, attempts to describe the Weave become poetry, theology and hard-to-verify scholarly theory.

Realmslore generally doesn't use the term 'raw magic', and the energies manipulated by the Art aren't some special power source separate from the physical world, but the same flows and networks of energy that underlie it.

D&D spell levels and exact memorization limits are an approximation and an abstraction of a more complex in-Realms reality. One of the best ways to understand spell memorization is to go to Vance's Dying Earth books, which were an inspiration for Realms magic even before D&D.

The 2E spell schools also aren't prominent in Realmslore, and wizards tend to mentally group spells not by school but by function: battle-spells and various subgroups, movement magics, mind-affecting spells, healing, warding, and so on -- though some of these categories coincide with the schools, especially necromancy and illusion.

Metamagic is an integral part of spell-casting: so much so that the Realms term for metamagic is probably simply 'Art'. Learning to control the energies of the Weave and shape spells involves the ability to alter them creatively in a range of ways, and through the use of special magics created to modify and combine with other spells.

meldread

Dec 07, 2008 21:44:47

That's interesting, Suin Bahhar. It seems rather different than how I imagined it working. That's cool. I hope others also come up with different interpretations.

I'll try and explain how I imagine it working:

Exactly how much knowledge does a character who uses and studies the Weave -reasonably- possess about the Weave itself? Do they know about raw magic?

All wizards, even first level wizards, understand the existence of raw magic (or "pure magic") and the basic functions of the Weave. This knowledge is necessary in order to properly work the Weave and spells.

* How the Weave functions on a very basic level.

Raw Magic: This is the fundamental building block that makes up everything in the multiverse. Very little is understood about raw magic outside of its existence. At a basic level it replaces things such as particles and atoms in our world. Those thing's don't exist in the Forgotten Realms. If you could see an FR particle with the naked eye, you'd be viewing raw magic.

Magic: Magic is the act of literally shaping and altering the raw magic to create a desired effect. It allows you to bend time and space, to bring something into existence that did not previously exist, or transform something already in existence into something else. There are only two limitations placed upon a wizard: his imagination and his potential.

The Weave: The Weave exists on Toril to allow wizards (and other arcanists) to manipulate raw magic. It is merely a conduit. To use a real world parallel, it's a bit like data on a hard drive and an operating system. It is possible for the data on your hard drive to be wholly intact, but for your operating system to fail. The Weave is like the operating system, and it occasionally fails for various reasons (wild magic / dead magic zones). Raw magic is like the data that is stored, and it is rarely, if ever corrupted. This is why things still continue to exist in a dead magic zone.

Threads: The Weave is made up of threads. Every spell draws upon a number of threads to create a desired effect. To use a real world analogy threads represent atom's / particles, which is to say in FR lingo, threads represent the various states of raw magic. Example: One thread might control temperature, and another thread might control the element. So a wizard tweaking a spell could increase the heat of his fireball, or may change the element to water which would create steam instead of fire.

Bringing the lingo together: Spells are called Weavings, and Weavings are made up of threads that represent the various states of raw magic.

* Spells-per day.

Weaving a spell is complicated. You need absolute concentration and focus. Any interruption could cause failure. It also takes time. I rule that it takes 10 minutes + 5 minute per spell level to Weave a spell. Cantrips take 5 minutes to Weave. The Wizard "weaves" his or her spells in advance and then quickly releases them with key words and gestures at the desired time.

There is also a limit upon how much arcane energy you can actively have surrounding you at any one time. More advanced arcanists can control more arcane energy, while less advanced arcanists need to control less. If you try and control more it almost always results in disastrous consequences.

* Spell circles (cantrips and spell levels 1-9).

Spells are divided up into circles based upon the difficulties of the Weavings and the amount of threads and arcane energy involved. Cantrips are the simplest, with ninth circle being the most difficult. Mystra banned magic above ninth circle, and it has now become epic magic. What this basically means is that she no longer allows wizards to bind Weavings around themselves of spells more complex or powerful than ninth circle. They are cast in a more traditional form (the way a spell would typically be cast if a wizard could not bind the Weave around themselves).

* Spell Schools.

Spell Schools are a construction by Wizards who specialize in a particular set of threads and Weavings. Those who specialize in transmutation, for example, study the threads most dedicated to that specialization. The Weave itself does not "understand" the concept of spell schools, it is simply an artificial construction by Wizards to better focus their education and study.

* Meta-magic.

Meta-magic is the study of particular threads that allow you to enhance a spell in certain obvious ways, such as enhancing duration or power.

---

That is how I imagine the Weave and Magic working on a very basic level. These would be things all wizards would know pretty much from first level forward.

I am interested in other people's imagining / interpretation of the Weave.

suin_bahhar_02

Dec 07, 2008 23:31:10

The most striking difference in your interpretation is you defined raw magic as the source, and the weave as the medium. I like to definition of raw magic as fantasy atoms, the "natural building blocks" of the prime material plane and its life. Raw magic is supposedly dangerous, especially to mortals such as an apprentice wizard. If raw magic is so widespread, how come they learn to control those energies and forces with such careful growth and dont overuse the abundant raw magic in explosive and uncontrolled manner? Perhaps the weave IS the solution here as well. Mystra enables practical magic by collecting the incoming arcane energies from all life in the multiverse and that generated by Toril and its inhabitants into this web of the weave. Strands of this web can be sensed and caught with arcane formulae and component triggers into the desired spells.

Strange though why raw arcane magic has trouble healing a person if its so closely linked to life energy.

Torils planet will give any caster a nice warm feeling on first arrival. The weave gives casters a means to work magic without the usual burns and curses as it makes raw magic more manageable for casters to harness. I am even inclined to allow arcane casters on Toril to make their spells more personal with little visual flourishes of thier own as those kinds of maniplations come easier when tapping for arcane energy through the weave.

lord_karsus

Dec 08, 2008 10:17:45

-I've always seen 'Raw Magic' as ambient radiation (Not in the literal sense. In the metaphorical sense), with the Weave being the radiation suit you put on to protect yourself from harm, so that you can interact with it.

Stigger

Dec 08, 2008 15:47:01

How would such an individual go about explaining the Weave and other magic in the Realm's to such an individual?

More accurately phrased: Exactly how much knowledge does a character who uses and studies the Weave -reasonably- possess about the Weave itself? Do they know about raw magic?

About the Weave itself? Almost nothing from an objective point of view I'd say. From the commonly held interpretations, probably quite a bit. An issue of semantics perhaps, but I tend to view arcane scholarship as being highly semantical, so... as to knowing about raw magic, probably the widely held beliefs about it. How firmly that belief might be held, and how open-minded they are about new discoveries probably varies individual to individual.

Explain the following:
* Spells-per day.

The ability to harness discrete amounts of magical energy, shaping them into useable effects. As experience increases, greater amounts of energy can be shaped and harnessed at specific magnitudes of power and function.

* Spell circles (cantrips and spell levels 1-9).

Seemingly naturally occuring magnitudes of magical energy that can be shaped by spellcasters of various degrees of accomplishment and understanding. There is some variance to exact facility (explaining certain feats), and items that can increase capacity, but they tend to fall within certain predictable norms.

* Spell Schools.

Somewhat arbitrarily named descriptors of various flavors of magical energy, generally corresponding to the types of uses and effects that the specific energy flavors are best suited to. Certain effects resonate with more than one type of energy (as per the PHBII), and certain flavors can be further refined in their definition as evidenced with subschools and descriptors. While not concretely defined, they are useful to reference against when it comes to counters and defenses.

* Meta-magic.

Subtle and not-so-subtle manipulations of magical energy to the base of specific magical effects to enhance or alter the way in which they function or affect the world. Depending on both the nature of the manipulation and the individual skill of the caster, they can have dramatic effect at the expense of increasing the magnitude of the energies involved in the casting.

* How the Weave functions on a very basic level.

It describes the ebb and flow of magical energy throughout Abeir-Toril, and partially describes the best approximation we can make for providing an image to reference it by. While no single word could ever describe all of magic, its the best we have, and appropriate on several levels. One could look at it as describing the 'tapestry' that all of the various types of magical energy create when viewed as a magical whole, rather than as the discrete elements we tend to look at them as. Its also a useful metaphor for looking at the way it infuses the land, and the way it can be concentrated or diffused that makes it much more comprehendable to the commoner than more appropriate arcane terminology, happily also fulfilling Mystra's directive to make them less fearful of Art. All in all, its also a useful metaphor in general when it comes to describing the way in which magic is harnessed and channeled through mortal hands, be it Arcane of Divine in nature, likening the casting of a spell to weaving a tapestry or other work of artistry.

Ignore the existence of the Shadow Weave for a moment.

I do that most of the time anyway. :D

Not great, but time and effort limit how much I'm willing to go into those answers.

suin_bahhar_02

Dec 08, 2008 17:16:06

Whoa..

All in all, its also a useful metaphor in general when it comes to describing the way in which magic is harnessed and channeled through mortal hands, be it Arcane of Divine in nature, likening the casting of a spell to weaving a tapestry or other work of artistry.

At first I thought you meant that someone who weaves tapestries or bakes pots draws on the weave as well. But you used the comparision as a metaphore too. :phew

So weaving a spell is like knitting (or crafting baskets);). Seems more something a hag would do... When a spell is memorized the weaving is done to balance the mindtrigger for calling on the weave for its magical energy. Colour coding the schools of magic would be a flavourfull way of making drawing upon the weave a distinctive and recognisable action.

Is it possible to use detect thoughts or read mind effects to see spells that are memorized?

P.S. I am intended to agree that not all wizards (and certainly a large amount of sorcerers) know what raw magic is. Most would just know the weave threads make their magic just work. Upon getting to esotheric spells like spell mantles, plane shifting and other higher energy spells a mage learns to look past the weave and manipulate raw magic.

lord_karsus

Dec 08, 2008 17:30:29

-The 'Weave' part can be metaphorical, with magicians 'weaving' threads of ambient magic together, to produce spells. Also, with them weaving their hands through the air, literal in that sense, as well.

#10

suin_bahhar_02

Dec 08, 2008 17:56:47

I like that handwaving works as actually pulling magic threads out of the weave. The actual time to make a simple spell like a magic missile takes quite short with experience. When looked at in slow motion a thread of magic is pulled by the somatic component from the weave and the target is made with the verbal components.

#11

Stigger

Dec 08, 2008 18:59:59

Well, one could say that the War Weaver from Heroes of Battle would work in nicely with the Realms as far as fluff goes, even if it is a 'generic' PrC.

As to a literal comparison to weaving... sure it could work. I tend to view the matter as ultimately subjective to the individual caster, who would use whatever explanation they either came up with or were taught by, as the focusing of the magic. That also works in conceptually with the idea that it takes time and effort to decipher the spellbooks of unfamiliar casters, as well as the optional idea that students of the same master/academy would have an easier time deciphering a colleagues than they would a stranger's. Ultimately I'd say there were almost as many answers to those questions as there were spellcasters... certain similarities, sure, but each with a unique take on the Weave and how magic works.

As to using mental effects to read someones spell roster... I'd tend to say yes and no. I would think it would be very difficult for a psionic to do so, the inverse being true as well, since I'd tend to rule that psionics and 'magic' were fundamentally different and difficult to discern unless the person doing it also had levels in a spellcasting (or manifesting) class. Were it arcane mind-reading versus arcane spells, then sure, but I'd probably have it require a caster level check to initiate unnoticed, and a spellcraft check at a fairly high DC to decipher the spells unless the targets 'style' was known from a spellbook or something.

With the literal 'weaving' of magic... I'd find that hard to rectify with things like Stilled spells, and probably bar a player who used that style from taking that feat if it came up, since it would clash with a fundamental concept of the character... at least without some in-game character development in that direction. Which again ties into my conceptualization that each spellcaster is ultimately unique in their approach to magic and the way they conceptualize and practice it... just makes it feel more magical and less rote scientific to me to think of it in those terms.

#12

meldread

Dec 08, 2008 21:19:08

The most striking difference in your interpretation is you defined raw magic as the source, and the weave as the medium.

To my understanding raw magic is canonically the source of the power for the Weave. Before 4th Edition canonically, mortals could not manipulate raw magic although it was believed that deities could. This was either because it was too dangerous / unstable, or that it was simply impossible (as if it was "frozen").

The Weave simply acted as a conduit, a set of metaphysical laws, that allowed an individual to manipulate the raw magic. It's a bit like programming. The only real language a computer understands is Binary Code (1's and 0's), but it is -extremely- difficult to program in Binary, so programmers invented other programming languages that are easier to work with and understand. The Weave would be comparable to something like Python or Java - easy to understand and accessible to a large number of people.

That's how I've always understood it, but I could be wrong.

------------

I envision the Weave as a number of threads that represent various "states" of Raw Magic. When you create a spell you're literally "Weaving" threads of magic. You say a word or phrase linked to a particular thread and "weave" it with your mind - though this is difficult so many wizards use their hands to make gestures. You might think of it kinda like counting on your fingers. You don't need your fingers to count, but it's helpful sometimes.

Using the Still spell metamagic feat means you've effectively learned to Weave certain threads mentally, without the aid of gestures. Using the Silent spell metamagic feat means you've so closely studied the Weave that you can mentally "call out" the names of certain threads and begin Weaving them almost naturally. By the time you're an epic level wizard you can begin to start taking feats like automatic still spell and automatic silent spell, representing your vast understanding of the Weave and your ability to manipulate it with your mind, no longer needing the crutch of words and gestures.

#13

faraer

Dec 09, 2008 8:00:06

To my understanding raw magic is canonically the source of the power for the Weave.

More precisely, as I mentioned above, the Weave harnesses natural energies:

the Weave, in turn, is our mortal name for the flows of natural energy we call “magic” because we can harness it (spells, spell-like powers, psionics, et al being the ways in which we accomplish that harnessing), that permeate Toril and are an integral part of all life in, on, and in the atmosphere of Toril.

The idea of the weave has been part of the Realms from the very beginning. It was my way of viewing and understanding “the interconnectedness of all things” in my world, the ways in which magic and all natural forces (kinetic energy, the weather cycle, tides, sunlight, etc.) were linked and interacted together. The name “Weave” was introduced (I believe) by Julia Martin of TSR and now Wizards, as the way folk of Faerun described these interwoven forces.

#14

meldread

Dec 09, 2008 16:28:11

Faraer-

I consider raw magic to be the total sum and base building block of all natural energies and the Weave to be a tool / conduit which was used to manipulate them.

I believe raw magic plays an important role in my theory because of how other magic works on Toril. We have many different types of magic: table magic, gem magic, rune magic, true naming, the two magical types from Maztica, and likely countless others that we simply don't know about. Let's not forget Psionics. How is it that the Weave can have certain interactions with psionic magic?

My theory is that -all- magic, regardless to how it is wielded, at it's heart is in some way manipulating raw magic. The Weave functions as a conduit to shape and use raw magic easily. The Mind functions as a conduit to shape and use raw magic easily - for Psionics.

It's what makes the most sense to me, in the end, and it helps explain how other forms of magic exist outside of the existence of the Weave. It even moves toward explaining how magic functions without the Weave in 4th Edition.

#15

faraer

Dec 09, 2008 22:49:09

Yup, that's about how it is. As you may know, there's a lot about the metaphysics of magic and the Weave in Ed's novels and his Candlekeep replies -- more detailed information than the sometimes misleading summaries in Magic of Faerûn.

#16

vladhslavh

Dec 10, 2008 13:24:58

My opinion has come to me in one of those wild brainstorms the other day, thought I could share it, it amused me at least, don't believe it hold any ground in cannon.
Sorry if the English sounds a bit crude.

* How magic functions on a very basic level.

Show

Mind over matter is not as simple as it sounds, it's indeed particularly bothersome in our realms, why? You see, some planes have in then an inbuilt mystic property, as if in its deepest cores some kind of energy echoed untamed causing what is known as chaos, this energy i theorise about (and only theorise mind you, there is no proof nor deny to any of this) is an actual imprint of the living creatures will.

Strange at first I know but think about it this way, every time a being is pushed under it's limits, every time it does what seems to be impossible, every time it imposes her very will against another being, he is imprinting in his surroundings an echo of that moment, notice how whenever you're close to someone sad you tend to become as sad? that is what I call a 'personality echo' those echoes as soon as released will roam the world until it confront itself against an even stronger echo and is either destroyed or absorbed into the others essence, that is where magic come from, the power to absorb those roaming echoes of personality with your own and harness their will to your own.

Those echoes as i said before have the power to subsume reality itself but only in a certain way,
one can get influenced by then to do something he would not otherwise, one could gather strength from seemingly nowhere and overcome a foe far stronger, and that is the power in your hands, the power to shape your surroundings by absorbing and using those tools in large enough amounts that their powers are far superior than they should be, and their effects are actually controlled by the wearer of them.

#17

suin_bahhar_02

Dec 19, 2008 12:12:27

Interesting thoughts.

Especially like the "echo's of will" hypothesis. Well done.

#18

vladhslavh

Jan 08, 2009 3:39:42

Interesting thoughts.

Especially like the "echo's of will" hypothesis. Well done.

Glad you like it, I tend to wonder to far for people tastes :P

#19

wychlorne

Jan 14, 2009 12:41:47

I've never liked how nobody seems to appreciate the difference between wizards and sorcerers in 3.5. Wizards, on the one hand, study magic in the form of arcane formulas and incantations. Sorcerers tap into their own inherent ability to channel the Weave. To me, sorcerers are far more magical, and if I were to be thrown into a D&D fantasy world like they were in Bender's Game, I would love to be a sorcerer and not a wizard.

That being said, the cosmological and metaphysical theorizations and postulates that can be created for magic are tantamount to our modern pursuit of theoretical and experimental physics, and I think that a life as a wizard could be quite fulfilling in terms of intellectual growth. If I were to multiclass into a wizard and take on an apprentice in that respect (sorcery cannot be taught, wizardry, however...), I would probably teach them magic in a way that resembles a gestalt study of both theoretical and experimental physics. I'd start with the Weave.

The Weave surrounds and suffuses everything. It is raw magic that is difficult to shape to your need. Some learn to shape it with formulas and theories, others by sheer force of personal power. The former being wizards, who channel the Weave in a delicate art (the Art), and the latter being sorcerers, who have inherent magical aptitude. The practice of magic is the practice of channeling the Weave.

Though divine spellcasters, such as clerics and druids, draw their inspiration from the gods, their spells are also channeled through the Weave. The difference between arcane spellcasting (the Art) and divine spellcasting (the Power) is related to the drastically different approaches. Arcane spellcasters channel the Weave through mortal-devised means, divine spellcasters channel the Weave through borrowed power from their patron deity.

The Weave is not without sentience, however. Mystra, the goddess of magic, is the sentient extension and keeper of the Weave. She alone has complete power over it, and by that token can shape it to her will, or even sever someone's connection or block their access to it.

With this power comes enormous responsibility, however. Because of the number of people utilizing the Weave, it is prone to fraying. These tears can only be mended by Mystra.

As I already mentioned, arcane spellcasters channel the Weave in the form of the Art. This delicate process is very time (and energy) consuming, and powerful spells can sometimes leave the caster temporarily weakened, or even have backlash effects. In general, however, most people never even learn to cast a single cantrip, let alone become powerful enough to channel the amount of magic necessary to cast spells of such enormous potential. Those who do are still bound by the mortal coil and can only summon enough energy to perform a certain number of spells per day.

Because sorcerers don't need to prepare their spells ahead of time, they have more energy to devote to actually casting their spells than wizards, who may only prepare and cast a limited number. As such, they can cast more spells in a day than a wizard can, and are also more versatile in any given situation because of their ability to cast anything they know. The drawback to this is that sorcerers must learn their spells through self-exploration and their own intuition, whereas wizards can easily assemble a large repertoire from rigorous study and sharing their findings with their peers. Thus, while not able to cast as many spells per day as sorcerers, and having to risk not preparing the proper spells for the challenges they will face, wizards almost always have a larger selection to choose from when preparing, which, if properly planned, can allow for a wizard prepared for any situation.

It's at this point that I have to stop, because I cannot go on to the ridiculousness of spell slots in the system devised for wizards and sorcerers. In my opinion psionics have the right approach: a pool of points to spend on different powers of varying levels of strength. If you aren't powerful enough to manifest powers with more potential, you can't know anything more than the basic ideas comprising them. As you grow in power, however, the pieces fall into place, and you become more proficient at psionics and are able to manifest them. When you run out of power points you are, essentially, 'burned out', unless you've devoted time to conditioning your body to continue by sacrificing some of your practice at manifesting (the difference between a psion and a psychic warrior).

I still believe, however, that the 3.5 system for wizards and sorcerers is far (FAR) superior to the 4E system if not only for the sake of simplicity. The maximum level of spell a wizard can cast is 1/2 his caster level as a wizard rounded up (ex. 17th level wizard can cast 9th level spells, whereas an 8th level wizard can only cast 4th level spels). The maximum level a sorcerer can cast is 1/2 his level rounded down (meaning he can cast 9th level spells when he reaches 18th level, not 17th).

This is far more sensible than "gain some at-wills here and a new encounter power every other level and a new daily at every level divisible by pi". You know what? **** that. How do you explain that in a textualization? This is why I hate 4th edition.

Anyways I'm going to stop because I'm at risk of de-railing the thread with this recurring tangent.