The Underdark

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Shiftkitty

May 06, 2008 14:55:34
How far does the Underdark extend? Does it go all around the planet, does it go down to the core, is it possible to enter the Underdark in the Northlands and come up in Maztica? Or is the map in the book "The Underdark" the only known Underdark on the planet?
#2

thinblade

May 06, 2008 17:36:41
There used to be a passage from the mainland to Maztica. It got sealed (with lava and falling rocks) during a battle between drow and dwarves. There might be others, and it might be possible to open that one up again, though it hasn't been done in the centuries since it happened. So yes, it's concievable that you could go from the North (remember, the Desert Dwarves were originally fleeing fallen Ammarindar) and end up in Maztica.

Whether there's a full-fledged Underdark under Kara-tur has not been stated, to the best of my knowledge. My feeling is there probably would be at least something, though since Kara-tur tends to be lacking large underground races/civilizations (dwarves, drow, duergar, purple worms, deep gnomes, et al, et al), it's probably much less developed.

I think Underdark says the Underdark extends at least 10 miles beneath the surface, and maybe 12 (afb atm), but at that depth you start getting gates to the demiplane of shadow and other weirdness. Whether it has an ultimate depth, I don't think has been explicitly stated.
#3

Shiftkitty

May 06, 2008 18:58:00
Thanks! I just got a book with some drow subraces and variations, "Plot & Poison" by Green Ronin, and I couldn't justify putting them all in the area defined by "The Underdark" and simply not having anyone who encountered them before. Now I have to find some variations on other Underdark races and I should be ready to shake up the known Underdark in my game!
#4

thinblade

May 06, 2008 22:37:34
You can always put them in the Lowerdark. Have them be a house (or even a faction of several houses) that fled their home city after a failed coup. A couple thousand years later in the most inhospitable place on the planet can create as many kinds of subraces as you could want.

If you have your heart set on multiple subraces, then I'd do it this way:

Several thousand years ago, civil war wracked [whatever city makes sense geographically for you, if we're talking Northdark, I'd say Eryndlyn, since it's large and has less written about it than Menzo or Ched Nasad]. After decades of struggle, one faction got the upper hand. Facing annhilation, the houses of the losing faction fled the city.

Due to their abominable habits [which could be just about anything, knowing drow], the victorious faction wasn't willing to settle for victory, and instead gave chase. For months, the losers fled deeper into the Underdark, fighting desperate rearguard actions against their more numerous enemies. Finally, deep in the Lowerdark, the chasers gave up. It had become too dangerous to continue persuit, and they were confident that what was left of the losing faction would soon perish.

The drow were only half right. What was left of the faction quickly disintegrated, with each family blaming the others for their defeat. Lacking an external threat to hold them together, the families scattered across their section of the Lowerdark. War, begun as simple raids for food and slaves, soon escalated into a multi-sided genocidal war.

Ever since, the surviving families have battled each other, oblivious to the outside world. Milennia of exposure to the hostile emanations of the Lowerdark have warped them, turning into creatures others would barely recognize as drow. To this day, they continue their war, slowly forgetting that any world exists outside of their battlegrounds.

But woe betide any force that gets between them!

That allows you to introduce as many odd variations as you want, as also explains why no one's ever seen them before: they've been too concerned with killing each other, and the only other group that knew they existed thinks they're dead. Then, you can either have your players get thrown into the middle (if they're powerful and *really* smart, they might even be able to do a Yojimbo, playing all ends against the middle). Or you could have one family send a young, expendable member up in search of new weapons to use against their enemies. This would, of course, cause the other families to follow suit, with the possibility of spilling their war across a larger swath of the Underdark.
#5

dmd

May 07, 2008 9:58:30
For some reason this question made me think of the old D&D boxed set Hollow World.
#6

Shiftkitty

May 07, 2008 14:27:16
Thanks, Thinblade! That's a great idea! I already use the drey, but the PCs have no idea where they came from. A vupdrak (winged drow) already tried to eat one PC (to a vupdrak, anything not another vupdrak is food). Spiderlings (imagine a halfling drider) have only been hinted at, and they have yet to even hear of, let alone encounter, an aquatic drow ("sharks of the Underdark" they've been described as). Perhaps the reason these strange creatures have been encountered in the Northdark is because a major battle in the ongoing war down below caused a major collapse and now some of the survivors look for new hunting grounds.

DMD Yeah, after all these years I'm still trying to make the hollow world thing palatable, but it's a hard sell to my group.
#7

thinblade

May 07, 2008 16:25:59
I'd be careful with something like a major cave-in, since it has to ripple upwards. After all, when Bhaerindyn collapsed, we got the Great Rift. If there was a major collapse in the Lowerdark, it would be felt and seen up above, and if it's followed by a bunch of drow types never seen before, it would be relatively easy for folk to put two and two together.

I think it's easier to rely on something less obvious to the outside world. Either a hunt for magic/weapons by scouts, or an exodus caused by one faction finally getting the other hand and starting to wipe the others out, or something similiar. Don't give any broad hints to your players. The migration should make perfect sense if you know everything that's going on in the depths, but should be unfathomable to those higher up. Let them deal with the effect, and, if they're curious, have them go questing for the cause. For instance, have one group start encroaching on the territory of a city your players have contact with, and have the city hire them to find out where they're coming from and how many more might be on their way.
#8

zanan

May 08, 2008 3:21:31
Dunno whether it has ever been dealt with (need to double-check DdUGttUD), but you can always ask Ed directly over at Candlekeep. He'll know.
#9

thinblade

May 08, 2008 10:00:56
Not sure which "it" you're referring to, Zanan. However, Plot and Poison is d20, so it significantly post-dates DDGttU. I picked Eryndlyn in my example because, of the major drow cities in the north, we know the least about it (pretty much just the entry in DDGttU, plus a few snippets here and there in various novels). That would make rewriting its history easier than it would be with, say, Menzo.
#10

zanan

May 09, 2008 3:31:02
"It" referred to the Underdark of Faerûn. Plot & Poison as well as its 3RE companion Dezzavold are related to Green Ronin's world / settings and thus not exactly relevant to Faerûn's Har'oloth. Both books are great resources nonetheless.
The Guide is no more specific than Underdark, so the OP needs to ask Ed over at Candlekeep what he thinks about the topic. Then again, Underdark is specific in saying that the domains described therein are "jsut" those known to the sages and people of the surface in one way or another. It is by no means an exhaustive list and "only" covers the Underdark beneath Faerûn, i.e. anything between the Sword Coast and the Hordelands.
#11

thinblade

May 09, 2008 9:51:54
Yeah, but why does he need to ask Ed if he's looking to put them in on his own? They're coming out of a non-WotC d20 product, practically by definition they don't exist in the Realms unless the DM says so (well, that's true of anything, really, but more so here). Plus, I'm sure Ed's answer would be along the lines of "I'm sure they're there if you want them to be." I was just trying to find a way to add them in the area the OP seemed to be working in, while reworking the least amount of established lore.
#12

zanan

May 09, 2008 11:45:20
Hm hm ... I was under the impression the OP was looking for more details on the FR's Underdark, as this is the relevant FR board. ;)
#13

thinblade

May 09, 2008 17:24:45
The OP was, but primarily because they want to put new races into the campaign, and was looking for a way for them to show up without unduly leading to "so why hasn't anyone seen these guys before?" That's not really something Ed would handle, though the OP is, of course, welcome to ask.
#14

zanan

May 10, 2008 3:55:55
The OP was, but primarily because they want to put new races into the campaign, and was looking for a way for them to show up without unduly leading to "so why hasn't anyone seen these guys before?" That's not really something Ed would handle, though the OP is, of course, welcome to ask.

What Ed should be able to handle are the OP's questions ...

How far does the Underdark extend?

Does it go all around the planet,

...

does it go down to the core,

...

is it possible to enter the Underdark in the Northlands and come up in Maztica?

... while Underdark already answers the last one:

Or is the map in the book "The Underdark" the only known Underdark on the planet?

... there are no other maps, but there sure is more Underdark beneath FAerûn than on the existing maps.
#15

nopityforacoward

May 10, 2008 10:59:30
The kid was asking a question he simply did not know the answer to, I don't know why you feel the need for the sarcastic "...." replies. Completely irrelevant Zanan.
#16

zanan

May 10, 2008 13:47:45
The kid was asking a question he simply did not know the answer to, I don't know why you feel the need for the sarcastic "...." replies. Completely irrelevant Zanan.

Dear fellow poster!

The OP asked for specific details on - as far as I see it - Faerûn's Underdark. Above, I stated who is the person to ask, i.e. the world's designer. Why? Because outside Underdark and DdUGttUD, there is no further printed information. As Thinblade was, IMHO, under the false impression that the OP was asking about the Underdark in general, I pointed out those questions of the OP which Ed Greenwood - as Faerûn's father - was or should be well capable of answering. To split these questions, I used " . . . ", though I could have used " + + + " or a couple of words or what have you. Nothing more, nothing less. If I want to be sarcastic, rest assured, I will use words.

NB: BTW, I wonder how you can define Thinblade's age by his / her name.
#17

Shiftkitty

May 11, 2008 11:30:36
The reason I asked here and not over in the General D&D forum is because I know there are folks hanging around here who can cite every FR novel and game book, chapter and verse. I use FR as a default and inspiration for my drow campaign, adding and removing what I like as I go, including a very small faction of drow of LG alignment with a really bizarre take on Lloth. I like to know what has been written as canon so if I find something I like I can use it without having to rewrite many aspects of my own world. (I hate those "Why didn't I think of that?" moments!) For example, are there drow in Al-Qadim? Maztica? Kara-Tur? It would be nice to have some ingredients to whip up a recipe from. I've asked before about Gromph's backstory and am satisfied that there is none. Therefore, I wrote my own. But there are so many FR novels out there I want to be sure I'm not missing anything cool before taking the leap as to how far the drow are spread on the planet. (I've already put them on other worlds, using elements from the old "Queen of the Demon Web Pits" module.) I don't really feel the need to pester Ed. I imagine he has other things on his plate, whereas here I know if I post in the morning, someone has usually responded by noon.
#18

zanan

May 11, 2008 14:59:51
Rightio ... there is a bit of info on dark elves in Maztica (don't ask me where - I only know that it isn't much and they were somehow repelled) and near to nothing on the other Realms. Essentially, there isn't much bar a few campaign settings on these "settings" either. So while I would assume some sort of Underdark there, there is nigh to no info on it.

I have no clue whatsoever whether the Underdark of "Greyhawk the setting" has ever been dealt with ... outside the big Spider Queen adventures. And these are not even a tenths as revealing as the FR books on the matter.

Of 3rd party books, most are concerned with races rather than the Realms Below. The reason more often than not is quite simple: they want that their products shall be used in D&D settings and if they whip up "Underdarks" of their own, conflicting stuff may appear and deter DMs from buying the stuff. So while you find tons of useful information, the place as such usually remains open to your imagination.
#19

Shiftkitty

May 11, 2008 17:04:15
Thanks. I always assumed that the most known access to the Greyhawk Underdark was somewhere in the Vale of the Mage, probably because of the cover for the module by that name. As far as Maztica goes, I suppose I'll have to root around a bit more to find out the story behind the drow there. Oddly enough, a few years ago I thought about drow in a Central American jungle environment. They were remarkably similar to the Eberron drow even though I hadn't seen Eberron yet at the time. If there's nothing on them in Kara-Tur or Al Qadim, then I guess it's time to brush up on RW folklore of similar RW regions and see what I can cook up.
#20

nopityforacoward

May 11, 2008 17:09:48
Dear fellow poster!

The OP asked for specific details on - as far as I see it - Faerûn's Underdark. Above, I stated who is the person to ask, i.e. the world's designer. Why? Because outside Underdark and DdUGttUD, there is no further printed information. As Thinblade was, IMHO, under the false impression that the OP was asking about the Underdark in general, I pointed out those questions of the OP which Ed Greenwood - as Faerûn's father - was or should be well capable of answering. To split these questions, I used " . . . ", though I could have used " + + + " or a couple of words or what have you. Nothing more, nothing less. If I want to be sarcastic, rest assured, I will use words.

NB: BTW, I wonder how you can define Thinblade's age by his / her name.

That is no justification, but nice try. And btw, if you want to use words for sarcasim, or your indirect sarcasim ".......". I can assure you, that you will not enjoy it with me. But please, as you will.
#21

rinonalyrna_fathomlin

May 11, 2008 17:16:22
Play nice, people.
#22

Shiftkitty

May 11, 2008 23:02:24
However you work it out, just have the class to do it in private. I hate it when people feel they need to air their dirty laundry in public.

I, the OP, am satisfied, given Zanan's knowledge of the FR drow, that I have only to research the Maztica connection. I am aware of some drow showing up in the Hordelands, but their mention is pretty scant, and they seem to be non-existent in Kara-Tur and Al Qadim, according to what I've read this afternoon. (Al Qadim would make sense. Too damned much sun.)
#23

nopityforacoward

May 11, 2008 23:08:19
However you work it out, just have the class to do it in private. I hate it when people feel they need to air their dirty laundry in public.

I hate it when people get involved in situations that do not protain to them. But I implore you to join in if you feel the need to "Referee" this already forgotten dispute.
#24

zanan

May 12, 2008 3:08:59
Ahem ... I am somewhat at a loss here and not exactly sure what NoPityForACoward's agenda is. Nor am I willing to go off-topic either, "defend my case" any further or discuss things for discussion's sake.

Shiftykitty, I seem to remember that The Grand History had a few bits and pieces on Maztica, but I am sure people on here will know too. The Forgotten Realms Atlas CD-ROM featured one of the island temple cities, though I cannot tell whether they were placed in the Realms Below.
#25

zanan

May 12, 2008 5:40:46
http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php

Shifty ... neither the Maztica CS, nor Fires of Zatal, nor Endless Armies features anything on the Underdark. With regards to drow and other subterran races, page 26 of the Maztica CS says:

CAVES OF FAR PAYIT:
The peninsula is based upon a bed of very porous limestone, and consequently the caves that have formed there are continuously growing and expanding. Many large cave systems have come together, to form a veritable highway net of passageways underneath the jungled lands.
Many of these are air-filled caves, while a roughly equal number are submerged. They are host to a variety of subterranean life, including fish, bats, molds, and fungi; and also to a few monstrous
denizens of the dark who are not used to encountering human intruders.
There are no intelligent races living in these caves, however, although they seem tailor-made for
a dwarf, gnome, or even goblin or drow homeland. When they are discovered by a member of such a race, word of their existence will spread across the Realms. It is likely that they will become settled as a 'new frontier' that has opened before the crowded populations of the underground peoples of the Forgotten Realms.
It is not known whether or not these caverns offer any connections to subterranean regions beyond Far Payit itself. Such links cannot be ruled out, however.

Kara-tur is equally devoid of Underdark or drow information. There might be, however, Dragon articles on this.
#26

thinblade

May 12, 2008 10:17:17
If there's ever been a mention of drow in Kara-Tur or Zakhara, I've missed it completely, and I own all of those sourcebooks. Neither is there mention of an "Underdark." Caverns, yes, but not the vast inter-connected systems that the northerners would consider an Underdark.

Maztica needs to have at least a mini-Underdark, since the dwarves managed to travel under a good portion of the continent to emerge in the middle of the deserts. The problem there would be surface connections. There probably aren't very many, and now that the passage back to Faerun is closed, that's one less way to get in.

Maztica's drow are dealt with, I think, primarily in the last bit of Book 2 and Book 3 of the Maztica novel trilogy. I haven't read book 3, though, and it's been years since I read book 2, but IIRC, they all get turned into driders by a vengeful Lloth.

Since the modern drow diaspora started from what is now the Great Rift, it would make sense that they would spread east and south (leading to Kara-Tur and Zakhara), in addition to north and west. However, despite being logical, there's never been any sources to back this up. That's your opening, though, if you want it. And since there probably hasn't been any contact with their more "traditional drow" cousins, there's no telling how they might have changed during the passing millennia.
#27

Shiftkitty

May 12, 2008 14:08:12
Cool! Thanks for the help, guys. Just the sort of thing I was looking for. I probably won't dive into the Dragon issues. It might be too herculean a task for me to try to find them all. (I stopped buying the mag when they started focusing on sci-fi and superhero games at the expense of fantasy games, otherwise I'd have a healthy library of them!)
#28

thinblade

May 12, 2008 14:15:02
I agree that a manual search of Dragon would not be worth it. However, it might be worth it to take a look through the DragonDex:

http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/

Do a search for drow, or underdark, or anything else that might be of help, and at least narrow it down to specific issues.

And let us know if you have more questions, we'll do our best to answer.
#29

lord_karsus

May 12, 2008 21:29:17
I agree that a manual search of Dragon would not be worth it. However, it might be worth it to take a look through the DragonDex:

http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/

-An amazing link. Thank you for that.
#30

ORC_Sinister

May 14, 2008 20:13:21
please remember to post in english as not to cause a disruption and so everyone can understand your comments.
#31

Shiftkitty

May 18, 2008 15:03:23
Thinblade- Thanks for the link. I've been browsing through it and making a list of what issues are of particular interest.