My five:
#1
Waterdeep: CoS
Because it was advetised as the first, last, and best stop for information on Waterdeep, but was only good for existing fans of Waterdeep who wanted minor updates.
#2 - 4
Anauroch: The Empire of Shade
Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave
Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land
I have not read these, but what I understand about them was that they were supposed to be sourcebooks, crunch, and adventures and managed to fail at all three.
#5
Lost Empires of Faerûn
Very useless. It was supposed to detail the lost empires, but merely collected stripped down general information from previous products. I had to abandon it and find 2nd ed material on Nethril for my players week long visit to the era.
#5
Lost Empires of Faerûn
Very useless. It was supposed to detail the lost empires, but merely collected stripped down general information from previous products. I had to abandon it and find 2nd ed material on Nethril for my players week long visit to the era.
-Wow...This product is generally lauded as one of the best, if not THE best 3e era product.
-Let's see...
Worst, in no particular order (not including any adventures):
Player's Guide to Faerûn
Lords of Darkness
Mysteries of the Moonsea
Unapproachable East
Faiths and Pantheons
Best, in no particular order (not including adventures):
Lost Empires of Faerûn
A Grand History of the Realms
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Races of Faerûn
Serpent Kingdoms/Underdark (I can't pick, but I think they are both good, bordering on the cusp of "one of the best", SK moreso than Und)
5 worst, also in no particular order:
Faith's and Pantheons
Mysteries of the Moonsea
Lords of Darkness
Magic of Faerun
Dragons of Faerun
5 best, also in no particular order:
Player's Guide to Faerun
Silver Marches
Champions of Valor
Races of Faerun
Unapproachable East
Granted, I'm a big fan of splat books but I felt the worst books I posted above just didn't have any useful information. Sure Mag was eh....ok for a while, but now with Spell Compendium it's practically useless. Also, i expected BIG things out of the Moonsea source, espically on Phlan, but again, nothing spectacular.
and for $%## and giggles, my 5 best non-core 3/3.5 books:
Complete Warrior
Complete Champion
Spell Compendium
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords
Player's Handbook 2
and for $%## and giggles, my 5 best non-core 3/3.5 books:
-Good idea:
Player's Handbook II
Complete Divine
Complete Arcane
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Frostburn/Sandstorm/Stormwrack
Faiths & Pantheons
Dragons of Faerun
Best FR:
Player's Guide & FRCS
Silver Marches
Lost Empires
Serpent Kingdoms
Unapproachable East
Lost Empires of Faerun
Power of Faerun
Magic of Faerun
Champions of Valor
A Grand History of the Realms
- Worst... NPO
Mysteries of the Moonsea
CoS:Waterdeep
Faiths and Pantheons
Champions of Ruin
Silver Marches (Not really, but I'll never forgive them for the Xara Tantlor thing)
- Best Other... NPO
Spell Compendium (despite the name change, beginning of the end stuff)
Magic Item Compendium
Complete Mage
Complete Arcane
Book of Exalted Deeds
So, to each his own.
The super-modules were a VERY poor attempt on WotC's part to compete with Paizo, who has the adventure/lore thing down pat.
I like ALL of the 3e source/regional FR books, and dislike all of the adventures.
As far as core goes - they were VERY hit or miss. The idea that they needed to create a new race for every book, when they could have used existing ones was pretty stupid, IMHO. Why not detail some of the other bird-races, instead of creating the Raptorans? How about giving us a bunch of info on Ogres or Firbolgs, instead of creating the Goliaths? Also, expanding on some of the excellent classes created, like the warlock, would have been better then creating more base classes. Why did we have two different Ninjas and two different Samurai? Were they that strapped for ideas? Unneccessary redundancy seems to have been the 'catch phrase' at the 3e WotC offices.
I did, however, greatly enjoy the Environmental books, and aside from the fact that we wound up with two seperate races looking just like Killer Whales (Orcas), they were damn useful.
I did, however, greatly enjoy the Environmental books, and aside from the fact that we wound up with two seperate races looking just like Killer Whales (Orcas), they were damn useful.
-It's the way of the future. Soon, we will all look like Orcas...
(Not exactly Orcas, but I know there is an Orca character ["Moby Lick"], but close enough...)
Lost Empires
Serpent Kingdoms
FRCS
Underdark
Magic of Faerun (pre SC)
Top 5 Overall:
Complete Warrior
Complete Arcane
Spell Compendium
Complete Adventurer
Heroes of Horror (yay Dread Necromancer)
Worst 5:
BoED
Weapons of Legacy
Incarnum/Bo9s - just for being 4e preview books
Complete Psionics
Cityscapes
Faiths and Pantheons
Mysteries of the Moonsea
The Tearing of the Weave adventures
Best, in no particular order
Lost Empires of Faerûn
Underdark
Power of Faerûn
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Grand History of the Realms
To get on topic - I think that Silver Marches are kind of disappointing, along with Player's guide to Faerun. I will probably buy the PGTF anyway, cause I need the cosmology info that's inside of it, though.
mysteries of the moonsea
faith and pantheon
player's guide to faerun
best
silvermarches
waterdeep
frcs
lost empires
best core
phb
mm1
worst core:
mm 4, mm5
dmg
best non core
complete warrior
complete adventurrer
complete divine
complete mage
worst
complete arcane
complete champion
complete scoundrel
book of nine swords
tome of magic
book of exaulted dead
book of vile trash
elder evils
and just about everything else i didnt like
...and just about everything else i didnt like
-Well said. ;)
-Wow...This product is generally lauded as one of the best, if not THE best 3e era product.
I agree, Lost Empires was one of the best. I thought some of the worst were Champions of Valor, Players Guide, Mysteries of the Moonsea and the Shining South. Some of the best included Lords of darkness, magic of fauerun, Silver Marches, Lost Empires, Waterdeep and races of faerun
For a guy who started in 3e, I think that Faiths and Pantheons are actually a pretty good book, myself. I've never seen the previous god-compendium books, however. I do enjoy reading F&P for god lore not aviable anywhere else in my DnD home library.
Faiths and Pantheons is reprinted material from the previous three god accessories with minor adjustments for updating it to 1372 DR. That said, I too found it useful. Most of the god questions that come up can be answered by the book. Instead of having to sort out which book I need or track down the correct book, I just have one book where I'm likely to get the answer I need. That said, I still have all three god books from 2nd edition because they have a wider and deeper pool of information on all the gods that are in Faith and Pantheons and have gods that were left out of Faith and Pantheons. Additionally, players are more intimidated by three books to wade through. They need to read enough to get an idea, but not enough to risk their eyes glazing over. I recommend having Faiths and Pantheons within arms reach and having the previous three god books in the next room over.
-Wow...This product is generally lauded as one of the best, if not THE best 3e era product.
I am surprised that Lost Empires is so popular, but I had a horrible experience with it. I just dug the book out so I could articulate this. It's been over a year since I last looked at it and I just remember that it was useless.
Okay, I needed to know about ancient Nethril, with a focus on Low Nethirl and Karsus's city. Opening up the book I see the first thing that they fail to provide is a speciffic map of Nethril. They have the world map and I will conceed that it is interesting, but it only shows the geography. Where are the cites and the roads? Why does the book not have full page maps of each area that it details with cities and roads and such?
I need info on Low Nethril. Place names and who runs it. I don't find it. It mentions that several villages on the shore of the narrow sea jopined together but it doesn't name those villages. Nor do I have any idea where the narrow sea is, because the only map doesn't bother with naming bodies of water. It does mention four Low Nethril cities and discusses two of them, but it essentially says that they existed and what happened to them after everything hit the fan. Nothing on what they were like when they were living breathing cities. And both of them are later additions to the empire. The book offers no information on the older cities of the empire. That's a huge chunk to leave out. I'm sure there is one line information in the timeline that could be useful to me, but reading a timeline is really tedious when I don't have a map to reference the movements of what is going on. Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't think they even mention the name of Karsus's city. That's going to be an important bit of information if my players are going to go there. I can't just call it "Karsus's floating city" now can I? I can make up a name, but shoudn't it be in the damn book?
All in all, the book was pretty useless in providing information on Nethril that I was looking for, but then the entry on Nethril is only 17 pages long. A little over one third of the book is devoted to crunch. I'm fine with the ancient feats, ancient prestige classes, and ancient spells. I could careless about feats, spells, and PrCs I know other gamers need that stuff. I could really do without 9 pages on magic items, but 32 pages are spent on monsters that are well and sufficiently detailed elsewhere. That is filler with a capital FILLER.
If I just want my players to stumble across a random ruin, I can do that no problem without this book; but my players were going back in time so they could steal something while it still existed. I needed to understand the region they were going to. I needed more of a complete picture of Nethril that I could wrap my head around. A map would have been great. A map that showed the boundaries of Low Nethril at different periods of time would have been absolutely fabulous.
-And, the city that Karsus ruled is known simply as 'Karsus' Enclave', or, if you want to be really fancy, 'Eileanar'.
I did not expect the book to be Netheril: Empire of Magic. What I needed was a map of Low Nethril (1 page), brief discriptors of the locations on said map (I'd have been happy with 2 or 3 pages worth), Identifiying Eileanar as Eileanar and say a little something about it (1/8th of a page?). In the 2nd edition material there is even a map of the place. All total that's less then 4 pages of material that is not unreasonable to expect to find in such a book. 66 pages of the book are unecessary to the task of detailing the lost empires because they're crunch. I acknowledge that 25 of those pages are a key selling point for a certain segment of buyers, and I'm not too iritated by the 9 pages spent on magic items. I'm reserving my ire for the 32 pages of monsters that are detailed elsewhere. That is eight times the number of pages of material that I needed. Divide those 32 pages between the 7 different empires detailed in the book and each empire would get an additional 4.5 pages of material. The information could have been put in the book but someone made the decision to include random monsters detailed elsewhere instead of including more reprinted information on those empires. Really, wouldn't you have rather had that? Or do you condone WotC wasting 32 pages on monsters that have been detailed elsewhere?
which one was undrentide
Worst FR (not including adventures)
Champions of Ruin
Unapproachable East
Faiths and Pantheons
Player's Guide to Faerun
Mysteries of the Moonsea
Best FR:
Champions of Valor
Underdark
Power of Faerun
Silver Marches
Serpent Kingdoms
Best other:
Unearthed Arcana
Complete Mage
Dragon Magic
Lost Empires of Faerun
Lords of Darkness
Unapproachable East
City of Splendors
Worst FR:
Races of Faerun
Champions of Valor
Shining South
Serpent Kingdoms (although good, quite useless for me personally)
Worst Core:
Drow of the Underdark
Elder Evils (I hate their 'PCs should be able to beat anything' philosophy)
Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex 1, Fiendish Codex 2 etc (while I liked these books a lot, I really don't like the fact, that WotC favors fiends over celestial in such an unbalanced way; 4:1 I think)
-It's the way of the future. Soon, we will all look like Orcas...
Seriously though, did we really need both of these guys? I don't think we needed either of them, and they are not even related in any way.
And thats just one reason I thought the splatbooks were mostly garbage.
Serpent Kingdoms (although good, quite useless for me personally)
-While I agree, since it is completely useless for me to, but I can't disregard what it brings to the table.
I did not expect the book to be Netheril: Empire of Magic. What I needed was a map of Low Nethril (1 page)...
-There is a detailed map of Netheril during the Golden Age in AGHotR, pg. 32, if you still need it.
Really, wouldn't you have rather had that?
-Yes, yes I would have. That said, that is not how 3e products work. They all have a section with new spells, new PrCs, new feats, monsters and whole bunch of other mechanical things. Then you add in the actual meat of the book. Now, split that remaining room into smaller portions for the multiple fallen empires, and you have what all 3e products are, for the most part: A great overview, where, if you want more detail, you turn to the 2e supplement(s) on the matter. Just like Faiths and Pantheons, as we all know.
Seriously though, did we really need both of these guys? I don't think we needed either of them, and they are not even related in any way.
And thats just one reason I thought the splatbooks were mostly garbage.
-One has a fin on the top of his head, and the other doesn't. That makes alllllll the difference. :P
Re Kelcimer's choices, it's hard to see how Eric could have done a much better job in the space of covering Waterdeep's bases and providing new lore; Shadowdale is flawed but much better than the other two; and Lost Empires is far more than a summary, providing improved coverage of Netheril in particular and much new information.
Where's that first picture from? Can't say I've ever seen it... at least not that I remember.
-One of the Monster Manuals, or monster galleries in another book, I believe.
Looks like Ultraman.
-That Power Rangers-like Japanese action show? Yeah, I can see the similarities there.
-Forgotten realms campaign setting
-Lost empires of Faerun
-Serpent kingdoms
-Underdark
-Lords of Darkness
Worst Realms products
-Player's guide to Faerun (Needs no explanation)
-Magic of Faerun (I bought this one and was really disappointed. Just too much useless filler)
-All the adventure-sourcebooks (including mysteries of the moonsea)
-Unaproachable east (This seems to be the only real regional sourcebook that I found lacking. This is the only one I've never considered buying)
Best general D&D products (non-core)
-Fiend folio
-Lords of madness
-Manual of the planes (Nothing compared to all the 2nd edition material, but as far as 3rd edition goes, this was an excellent source)
-Magic item compendium/spell compendium (Too handy to have all the stuff that belongs together into a single book, giving an enormous amount of options without requiring any other silly splatbooks)
Worst Core products
-Libris mortis (I bought this one, yuck! Class progressions into undead monsters, 30 pages out of 190 filled with sample undead?! etc..)
-complete anything
-book of exalted deeds
-There is a detailed map of Netheril during the Golden Age in AGHotR, pg. 32, if you still need it.
I don't need it anymore, but thanks.
-Yes, yes I would have. That said, that is not how 3e products work. They all have a section with new spells, new PrCs, new feats, monsters and whole bunch of other mechanical things. Then you add in the actual meat of the book. Now, split that remaining room into smaller portions for the multiple fallen empires, and you have what all 3e products are, for the most part: A great overview, where, if you want more detail, you turn to the 2e supplement(s) on the matter. Just like Faiths and Pantheons, as we all know.
We are largley in agreement here. I am not taking issue with the new spells, new PrCs, and new feats. Though if someone is unaware of the previous god books then Faiths and Pantheons works just fine for them. The same cannot be said of Lost Empires.
Faraer
Re Kelcimer's choices, it's hard to see how Eric could have done a much better job in the space of covering Waterdeep's bases and providing new lore;
I would refer you to the City of Ravens Bluff for what I expected out of W:CoS. You can get the pdf from the free downloads page.
I am kinda flummoxed how Unapprocheable East is such a bad sourcebook for some people. Besides missing weather tables and missing a map of Velprintalar and some other cities, I found it quite good.
-Two words: Star Elves.
The same cannot be said of Lost Empires.
-You are wrong here, then. What does LEoF do to make using simply it impossible to utilize Netheril in a campaign, in some fashion?
I can't see why people don't like the Player's Guide. All it was intended for was to update the stuff in the FRCS (game mechanics wise) to 3.5. Also, it adds a few extra PrC's, Magic Items, and Regional Feats. What's horrible about that?
-The best part of the book was the Cosmology of the Realms chapter. That said, I've come to completely ignore that, in favor of the Great Wheel information, tailored to the Forgotten Realms. The Feats, Items, Spells, and PrCs are nice, but who cares? Overall, the Player's Guide to Faerûn doesn't have anything worth the money it cost.
-Two words: Star Elves.
That's all? The book has tons of valuable (if sometimes re-used) information in it, and you rate it as worst because of the Star Elves?
That's all? The book has tons of valuable (if sometimes re-used) information in it, and you rate it as worst because of the Star Elves?
-That's the the start of it. I, personally, have no particular like for the region.
-The best part of the book was the Cosmology of the Realms chapter. That said, I've come to completely ignore that, in favor of the Great Wheel information, tailored to the Forgotten Realms. The Feats, Items, Spells, and PrCs are nice, but who cares? Overall, the Player's Guide to Faerûn doesn't have anything worth the money it cost.
I've always been crunch over fluff. I can always create my own story or area information. I don't need a book to tell me that a river runs through Silverymoon or what the population is of a particular area in Waterdeep is. I do however tend to under/over power my own home made mechanics and thus need more balanced....crunch. When you look at the source books for DnD, it really comes down to player prefererence. In our groups games, more often than not, there's going to be action and fighting. Last week was the 1st time we've basically gone a whole night without killing something (that 1 goblin doesn't count). I know, I know, people can go through many sessions without combat but to me, unless the story line is REALLY REALLY in depth and RP driven, i wanna throw some dice.
I know, I know, people can go through many sessions without combat but to me, unless the story line is REALLY REALLY in depth and RP driven, i wanna throw some dice.
-Skill checks?
-Skill checks?
Touche, though rolling for my skills unless i'm a Rogue or some other skill-monkey would get a bit dull. However I did roll a Bluff check (and succeeded!) when my character was caught with some grocer's daughter.
Touche, though rolling for my skills unless i'm a Rogue or some other skill-monkey would get a bit dull.
-Not really. That just depends on your character. I've had Clerics and Wizards (non-traditional "skill monkeys") with maxed out skill ranks and such.
However I did roll a Bluff check (and succeeded!) when my character was caught with some grocer's daughter.
-And you're lucky you passed that check!
-You are wrong here, then. What does LEoF do to make using simply it impossible to utilize Netheril in a campaign, in some fashion?
I refer you to my earlier posts on the matter.
If you want me to elaborate on a particular point I will.
I refer you to my earlier posts on the matter.
If you want me to elaborate on a particular point I will.
-I do not accept your points. ;)
-The book gives you an overview of what Netheril is. The rest, as DM, is up to you. And, again, if you truly need(ed) more data, Netheril: Empire of Magic is availible for free for download.
Faraer I would refer you to the City of Ravens Bluff for what I expected out of W:CoS.
It's twice the word count and was the first solid material on the place.
And, again, if you truly need(ed) more data, Netheril: Empire of Magic is availible for free for download.
And if you want to swim through a sea of misleading, unresearched rubbish.
It's twice the word count and was the first solid material on the place.And if you want to swim through a sea of misleading, unresearched rubbish.
-Which is canon, nonetheless, is the best product on Netheril that there is, and is the basis for 90% of all of the other information that cites Netheril.
-The book gives you an overview of what Netheril is.
While I accept that that was part of it's stated task, I am unpersuaded that it succeeded in this task.
-I do not accept your points. ;)
Then I need some clarification from you.
What, exactly, do you find unreasonable about my point that the book should have included a map of the place showing cities, towns, roads, and naming both those and the bodies of water? Ruins do not appear out of nowhere, and it would make sense for them to be concentrated where the concentration of the civilization was.
What sense does it make to discuss the floating cities, the colonies, and survivor states but forget to discuss where the vast majority of the population lived which happens to be where adventurers are going to find the most ruins?
Then I need some clarification from you.
-I was saying that in jest, as evidence by the emoticon, but, so be it...
What, exactly, do you find unreasonable about my point that the book should have included a map of the place showing cities, towns, roads, and naming both those and the bodies of water?
-There is only one map in the entire book, on pages 48 and 49. That said, this allows the DM full soverignty over where exactly he places his settlements, what they are, and their function. This, of course, is the chief complaint about the Forgotten Realms, that DMs have no soverignty.
Ruins do not appear out of nowhere, and it would make sense for them to be concentrated where the concentration of the civilization was.
-As stated above, as DM of your incarnation of the Forgotten Realms, Faerûn 717, which differers from Faerûn 616, you can place them where ever you like.
What sense does it make to discuss the floating cities, the colonies, and survivor states but forget to discuss where the vast majority of the population lived which happens to be where adventurers are going to find the most ruins?
-Low Netheril? There wasn't much going on in Low Netheril, period.
It's twice the word count and was the first solid material on the place.
It does not surprise me to find out that it is twice the word count. The size of the font was smaller then W:CoS. As a graphic designer I know all about letting the size of the font, the leading, and even the horizontal percentages go up to fill up space.
I fail to see why CoRB being the first solid material on the place should weigh in the matter. Solid material is solid material whether put forth in the 1st product or the 21st.
I've found more use out of any quarter page of CoRB then the entirety of W:CoS. W:CoS would tell you that the guild is there, whereas the CoRB would tell you where the guild has been where it is now and where it's likely to go. W:CoS would tell you if a house was fancy or not, large or not, and it's income bracket and that's it. CoRB wouldn't describe the whole thing, but give enough description to excite the imagination and suddenly the rest of the place would find itself in the DMs head.
I've found more use out of any quarter page of CoRB then the entirety of W:CoS. W:CoS would tell you that the guild is there, whereas the CoRB would tell you where the guild has been where it is now and where it's likely to go. W:CoS would tell you if a house was fancy or not, large or not, and it's income bracket and that's it. CoRB wouldn't describe the whole thing, but give enough description to excite the imagination and suddenly the rest of the place would find itself in the DMs head.
-Welcome to the world of differences between 2e sourcebooks and 3e sourcebooks. ;)
-I was saying that in jest, as evidence by the emoticon, but, so be it...
I took it to mean that you were stating the obvious. meh.
-There is only one map in the entire book, on pages 48 and 49. That said, this allows the DM full soverignty over where exactly he places his settlements, what they are, and their function. This, of course, is the chief complaint about the Forgotten Realms, that DMs have no soverignty.
Which has never bveen an argument that has excaped my lips. I buy a pregenerated campaign setting because I don't have the time to detail an entire setting. I pick out what I need and discard the rest. Only those DMs who don't know how to discard the rest have problems. Half of running the realms is discarding the rest. :D
-As stated above, as DM of your incarnation of the Forgotten Realms, Faerûn 717, which differers from Faerûn 616, you can place them where ever you like.
If I want to move a city to the other side of the river or move it north then I will, but I'm looking for a starting point.
-Low Netheril? There wasn't much going on in Low Netheril, period.
Even though that is where the majority of the population resided? I don't buy that. There had to be enough resources and people available to get High Nethril into the sky. Or did high Nethril simply pop into being fully formed?
I took it to mean that you were stating the obvious. meh.
-That would be this:
Which has never bveen an argument that has excaped my lips. I buy a pregenerated campaign setting because I don't have the time to detail an entire setting. I pick out what I need and discard the rest. Only those DMs who don't know how to discard the rest have problems. Half of running the realms is discarding the rest. :D
-No, I never said you were complaing about this. But, I'm just illustrating that...
If I want to move a city to the other side of the river or move it north then I will, but I'm looking for a starting point.
-Let your imagination go wild!
Even though that is where the majority of the population resided? I don't buy that. There had to be enough resources and people available to get High Nethril into the sky. Or did high Nethril simply pop into being fully formed?
-What really interesting goes on concerning farmers and barbarians? Not much...
-That would be this:
Meh? The meaning of those little guys can be different depending on context in which they are placed and the humor of those recieving them. yeah. meh.
-Let your imagination go wild!
I think we run circular here, because it defeats the purpose of buying a pregenerated setting.
-What really interesting goes on concerning farmers and barbarians? Not much...
I think here you are being facetious. ;)
Meh? The meaning of those little guys can be different depending on context in which they are placed and the humor of those recieving them. yeah. meh.
-Yeah, 'meh'. None of the other availible ones give a better 'meh'. Maybe this one:
I think here you are being facetious. ;)
-Not as much as it seems you think I am being. ;)
-Yeah, 'meh'. None of the other availible ones give a better 'meh'. Maybe this one:
"Meh" is more of a verbal shrug. While a certain amount of disinterest is there, I'm not sure I would all it bored.
-Not as much as it seems you think I am being. ;)
Close enough.
"Meh" is more of a verbal shrug. While a certain amount of disinterest is there, I'm not sure I would all it bored.
-It's not so much what the actual text says, as much as what the emoticon itself looks like. That one looks like a person is just kinda like, "Whatever, man".
Where's that first picture from? Can't say I've ever seen it... at least not that I remember.
The first one is called an Ocean strider, from MM2, viewable here, and the second is the Darfellan from Stormwrack, viewable here.
I think the first one is a giant, and the second human-sized, but both are anthropomorphic versions of Killer Whales. It is probably one of the worst cases of splatbook redundancy, but certainly not the only one. I'm not at home right now, but I remember two different PrCs about music in Complete Arcane, which was ridiculous, and most of the human-but-not-really-human races from the other books (like RoD and the Psionics books) was so cheap that I felt like I was robbed.
After buying some of those books, I really felt like I should have been kissed first.
I thought UE was great, as long as you completely disregard the corny, badly thought-out races... except for the Gnoll.
Gnolls are sexy. :P
Volodni? Did someone forget we already had Voadkyn, which are almost identicle? (small giant vs large human - both half-veg).
And don't even get me started on those gorilla-like cavemen... almost as bad as those Neaderthals in Frostburn (someone needs to take a few science courses).
And all of that, and I'm nowhere near my books ATM - I could go on for days if I had my sources handy.
If they have zero redundancy in 4e, then I will think this whole mess is worth it... even the craptastic Realms.
- Lords of Darkness (a wonderful book for the DM)
- Player's Guide to Faerûn (not much lore in it, but it's still one of the most used books)
- Races of Faerûn (just full of great info on the player races, a brilliant book)
- Silver Marches (very useful if running a game in the area)
Faiths & Pantheons deserves an honorable mention because it's the deity book that summarizes the information from the three 2e deity books.
Worst? Probably Champions of Ruin. It's all right, but for a DM, Lords of Darkness is much better - and how often do players play evil characters?
Edit: About those orca men... the ocean strider is a monster. It's a fey that lives in the sea. Darfellans are a player race.
And if you want to swim through a sea of misleading, unresearched rubbish.
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!;)
Sorry, couldn't help myself. However, may I ask, out of simple curiosity, what you dislike about that Netheril sourcebook? I don't have much of an opinion on it, myself, never having really looked through it.
kelcimer, I agree City of Ravens Bluff is better -- Ed did a miracle rescue job there. I just can't see placing good work like CoS: W in 'worst'. The fact that it's the 4th major book on Waterdeep means it was never going to please everyone who already had half its content.
Player's Guide to Faerûn (I'm sorry, I agree with Diffan)
Lost Empires of Faerûn
Races of Faerûn
Champions of Valor
Grand History of The Realms
(Underdark & Serpent Kingdoms following them)
5 worst FR books (in no particular order):
The Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch Saga
Mysteries of the Moonsea (while I'd need of it)
City of Splendors: Waterdeep
(Shining South and Lords of Darkness following them)
5 best D&D books (non-setting specific, in no particular order):
Complete Warrior
Spell Compendium
Magic Item Compendium
Player's Handbook II
Dragon Magic
(Complete Mage following them)
5 worst D&D books (non-setting specific, in no particular order):
Complete Champion
Monster Manual V
Races of Destiny (although I'd need of it)
Heroes of Battle
Complete Psionic
I'm not at home right now, but I remember two different PrCs about music in Complete Arcane, which was ridiculous...
-The two Killer-Whale People I can understand, but this, I don't. Why is having two (or more) PrCs about music ridiculous? That there are multiple bardic paths doesn't make sense? Hell, look at the many divergant paths of 'mundane' music, that we have. Concerning just Rock, there is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rock_genres
It's what you'd get if you gave an author a paragraph of information about the Realms and Netheril and told him to write a boxed set. Except Henson was given substantial notes which he ignored. George Krashos put it well here.
*chuckles* Thanks for the explanation, and the link.
George is right, some of those names were pretty dumb.kelcimer, I agree City of Ravens Bluff is better -- Ed did a miracle rescue job there. I just can't see placing good work like CoS: W in 'worst'. The fact that it's the 4th major book on Waterdeep means it was never going to please everyone who already had half its content.
Hm. I think there are several things going for why I have a very hard view on City of Splendors: Waterdeep (CoS:W). I wound up digging up some old posts of mine and combining them into this really long post. It got a lot longer then I thought it would be. So I've started a thread for it so that it's out of the way of people on this thread. Enjoy or skip as you will.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1018123
Those two bardic PrC's were fairly different from one another really as I recall them
Those were the Seeker of the Song and the Sublime Chord. If I recall correctly the former was a class that used bardic music to create supernatural effects
You crunch-monkeys are all alike. :P
To be 100% honest, I have never read the crunch part of either. In fact, I have probably read the crunch part of less then ½ a dozen PrCs (Gasp!).
I am almost always the DM, and only rarely get to play. What that means is that I read all the fluff of the PrCs, and then try to figure out where they fit into my world. The only time I read crunch is if one of my players takes one.
The fluff part of those two PrCs is nearly identicle - both seek the perfect chord (or song). I could give a rats @ss weather they are useful PrCs to some build - what I want is creative groups that spark my imagination.
Ergo, two of the same fell way short.
I have a responsibility to my players to 'Wow' them, not put them to sleep.
Just like it is their responsibility to find PrCs that will maximize their abilities. ;)
You crunch-monkeys are all alike.
To be 100% honest, I have never read the crunch part of either. In fact, I have probably read the crunch part of less then ½ a dozen PrCs (Gasp!).
I am almost always the DM, and only rarely get to play. What that means is that I read all the fluff of the PrCs, and then try to figure out where they fit into my world. The only time I read crunch is if one of my players takes one.
The fluff part of those two PrCs is nearly identicle - both seek the perfect chord (or song). I could give a rats @ss weather they are useful PrCs to some build - what I want is creative groups that spark my imagination.
Ergo, two of the same fell way short.
I have a responsibility to my players to 'Wow' them, not put them to sleep.
Just like it is their responsibility to find PrCs that will maximize their abilities.
And fluff-lovers could broaden their imagination. ;)
The blah-blah stuff before the crunch can easily be adapted and/or changed from what the info says. Anyone with a half-decent imagination can create in fluff info to fit said character's wants or desires but still adhere to the mechanics of the class. That right there is what makes it Role-Playing.
The fluff part of those two PrCs is nearly identicle - both seek the perfect chord (or song). I could give a rats @ss weather they are useful PrCs to some build - what I want is creative groups that spark my imagination.
Ergo, two of the same fell way short.
-And, again, the concept of widely differing groups/organizations/people(s) doing the same things is fairly common. What's it called? Parallel development? Something like that. Case in point, the legends of Dragons, the development of pyramids, etc...
--Top 5--
- Player's Guide to Faerun: Not much of a player's guide at all. It was essentially errata, parts of the book should have been free. Fixing the regional system took a chunk of the book. It had bland crunch. Most of the prestige classes were generic "class plus" type, since it lost the best bunch of those (Archmage, etc) to core (not to mention the region specific Red Wizard). Some of the PrCs were too specific and should have belonged in regional books (Spellguard of Silverymoon and Hammers of Moradin which should have been opened up to any dwarven holy champions).
Others tried too hard to tie in bad generic books, like the exalted and vile stuff. How about more options people will actually use or DMs will actually allow in a regular game (more in line with the Complete, Races, or Environment series)? The other majority of the book was devoted to the divine realms. This should have been in Faiths and Pantheons. Players in a normal FR game really don't need that much information on divine realms, a line or two for each realm to give them a glimpse of their afterlife rewards would have been fine.
Perhaps if this ended up as useful Players Guide in 3e about the setting, we wouldn't have these claims of the Realms being difficult to get into.
- Champions of Valor: I'm not sure what this book tried to be. It seemed very crunch heavy, but those parts just fell short. It had numerous substitution levels, which I liked the concept of, but I wouldn't want to take the majority of those abilities if it meant losing an iconic class ability instead. Some of these concepts would have worked as full prestige classes. The four PrCs in the book really didn't do anything for me. They were so specific, rare or unusual that their use to normal adventurers is dubious. The feats were feats were forgettable and their actual function is again dubious. I liked the information on the organizations, holy orders and knighthoods, too bad most of it was in short summary form and accompanied by bland, uninspiring and near useless crunch.
- Champions of Ruin: Like the above, the crunch was boring. I had enough of the Exalted/Vile stuff in their respective 3e books. I wanted more normal options that actually have the potential of seeing use by the heroes and villains of my games. The overly specific PrCs were of limited use, belonging to organizations that are too narrow for use in many games. They also had a few illogical or poorly worded entry requirements.
However, the part of the book that makes me want to grind up the pages and force feed it to the designers like expired oatmeal is the eponymous Champions of Ruin part. This section made a farce of not only the greatest supernatural and mythic threats of the setting, but also of all the NPCs published for 3e before this point. I think this was the straw that broke the camel's back when it comes to designer ineptitude. The designers just couldn't make up their minds in regards to what level of play is considered high. This massive inconsistency greatly hurt the playability image (read perception) of the setting.
- The Superadventure Trilogy, Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch: Three hardcover adventures, who the hell needs hard cover adventures? The only person in a group who should have these books are DMs, and they are only useful to each group as a whole product only once. After that their valure diminishes. WotC has an entire staff of business, accounting and marketting people, can no one work out a viable softcover line?
These three adventures took away publishing slots for other potentially good setting books. Three adventures with a scripted ending that matters squat comes 4E because technically the antagonists win in the end, which means the PCs technically failed, despite thinking they won. What was the point of the adventures anyway? 4E hit at the end of GHotR and it seems Anauroch come in with a silent roar, all posturing and hype but no power or impact.
- Mysteries of the Moonsea: This is actually not a terrible idea. I just dislike it because it took up another regional book spot, especially for a region with a lot of potential, including countering some of the Realm's typical image. I dislike that before we actually saw the book, many were lead to believe it was a regular regional book, not some adventure book that happened to have some setting information in it. Chalk this one up to bad marketing.\
--Honorable mention--
- Expedition to Undermountain: A generic book pretending to be a FR book, or an FR book trying to be generic. Doesn't really matter, just weak in general. Killing Halaster also a dumb move especially with complaints of too many goodly archmages. Why kill the gray shaded ones first?
- Dragons of Faerun: Between the half dozen 3e books on dragons and the Wyrms of the North articles, was this really necessary beyond books on countless regions, i.e. Cormyr and the Dalelands, the Western Heartlands and the Sword Coast, Cold Lands/Bloodstone Lands, the Island Kingdoms, the Vilhon Reach, the Shining Sea, the Shaar, Chult, the Great Glacier, the Old Empires, the Lands of Intrigue the other continents? Or a book on organizations, guilds and sects? How about a Faiths of Faerun for churches and holy orders, you know putting the focus back on PCs and less on the gods who are actually NPCs?
Dark Wizard
How about a Faiths of Faerun for churches and holy orders, you know putting the focus back on PCs and less on the gods who are actually NPCs?
I would really like such a book. I could see a lot of info being pulled from the three god books of 2e. Depending on how well they updated and added to the information would determine if it were a winner or not.
see a lot of info being pulled from the three god books of 2e. Depending on how well they updated and added to the information would determine if it were a winner or not.
-The general thinking is that, since nothing has really changed, there's no reason to reprint it all.
Or rather that things have changed by about a 100 years...
-I'm talking about now (1375 DR). Rich baker has already stated that, come 4e, there isn't going to be more information about deities (as in a Faiths and Pantheons 4e) except for the 30 or so pages in the 4e FRCS or DM's Guide.
Not that I doubt Rich Baker, but that WotC may change it's mind.
"We have no plans to do any novels that bridge the two editions..... except for the three I'm writing."
WotC go back on its promises? How can you think such a thing? :P
Unfortunately Markus, in the Crunch lied most of the Fluff, so you did yourself something of a disservice there. Similar ideas behind them, but radically different ways of going about them, and very different worldviews when it came down to it as a result.
If the crunch has to support the fluff, rather then the other way around, then thats some pretty poor game-design, IMHO.
Fluff should work on its own, WITHOUT mechanics. I can think of at least three non-WotC settings where the fluff parts of the setting books read like a well-written novel, and could be read and enjoyed without ever having to play the game or know the rules.
Anyone with a head for math and logic can come up with decent rules, but it takes a good writer to immerse people in a setting - something that FR has damn few of, and is losing more by the minute.
The authors seem to need quite a few crutches to hold up their lore, and thats why the game is being redesigned around THEIR needs.
The only thing wrong with 3e FR was that it required talent and research to write for. By destroying the world and lowering the entry age level for the game, they no longer need either.
Instead of sourcebooks, I expect we'll get comics and cartoons from now on.
However, the part of the book that makes me want to grind up the pages and force feed it to the designers like expired oatmeal is the eponymous Champions of Ruin part. This section made a farce of not only the greatest supernatural and mythic threats of the setting, but also of all the NPCs published for 3e before this point. I think this was the straw that broke the camel's back when it comes to designer ineptitude. The designers just couldn't make up their minds in regards to what level of play is considered high. This massive inconsistency greatly hurt the playability image (read perception) of the setting.
Could you elaborate on this? I'm interested in what you have to say, and I'm having trouble understanding what turned you off about this section.
Could you elaborate on this? I'm interested in what you have to say, and I'm having trouble understanding what turned you off about this section.
-I think he's complaining about the fact that Kezef, the Ravager of the Heavens, whom Mask was terrified of, is a CR 21 entity, that Dendar the Night Serpent, Harbinger of the End, is a CR 26 entity, that the Elf-Eater, Scourge of the Elves, is a CR 22 entity, that Malkizid, Corruptor Aryandaar, is a CR 27 encounter, and so on...
-Their Challenge Ratings are highly disproportionate for what they actually are.
Which really started with F&P giving deities stats... and turning them into potential mobs to loot phatly from.
-At least those stats are...high.
If I just want my players to stumble across a random ruin, I can do that no problem without this book; but my players were going back in time so they could steal something while it still existed. I needed to understand the region they were going to. I needed more of a complete picture of Nethril that I could wrap my head around. A map would have been great. A map that showed the boundaries of Low Nethril at different periods of time would have been absolutely fabulous.
Your criticism proceeds from a false premise. "Lost Empires of Faerûn" was intended to provide broad, historical background information on the ancient empires and provide further information regarding the remnants, leavings and legacies of those same empires in the here and now. It was a product for introducing elements of the lost empires into gameplay in the "now" Realms, not a dissertation on those empires as they were in the past, other than peripherally and historically. Simply put, this product was never intended to assist DMs who sent their players back in time to visit those realms in their heyday.
-- George Krashos
"Lost Empires of Faerûn" was intended to provide broad, historical background information on the ancient empires and provide further information regarding the remnants, leavings and legacies of those same empires in the here and now. It was a product for introducing elements of the lost empires into gameplay in the "now" Realms, not a dissertation on those empires as they were in the past, other than peripherally and historically. Simply put, this product was never intended to assist DMs who sent their players back in time to visit those realms in their heyday.
-- George Krashos
Wouldn't IC access to that content really be dependent on the availability of the Time Conduit scroll, which if I recall is watched closely by Mystra?
Which really started with F&P giving deities stats... and turning them into potential mobs to loot phatly from.
I really feel that this is completely dependent on the DM allowing this WoW-ification to happen. I for one try and maintain some consistency with the canon, and frankly I don't recall getting deities getting whacked by mortals other than certain RSE's, and even then the looting was fairly minimal if not non-existant.
Normally I tend to discount anecdotal evidence, but one hears this sort of stuff far too often for there not to be at least some truth it.
Your criticism proceeds from a false premise. "Lost Empires of Faerûn" was intended to provide broad, historical background information on the ancient empires and provide further information regarding the remnants, leavings and legacies of those same empires in the here and now. It was a product for introducing elements of the lost empires into gameplay in the "now" Realms, not a dissertation on those empires as they were in the past, other than peripherally and historically. Simply put, this product was never intended to assist DMs who sent their players back in time to visit those realms in their heyday.
-- George Krashos
How do I know if the PCs are going to stumble across an ancient road if I don't know where the ancient road is? How do I know the PCs stumble across the ruins of a city if I don't know where they are? How can the PCs discover an ancient map that shows roughly where the roads and cites are to help them navigate if their isn't one? I could make up small details as I go, but sooner or later all those small details need to form a picture. It is much easier to have a fuller picture and reveal tiny bits then to make up random tiny bits then make it into more of a cohesive whole. So no, I was not proceeding from a false premise.
How do I know if the PCs are going to stumble across an ancient road if I don't know where the ancient road is? How do I know the PCs stumble across the ruins of a city if I don't know where they are? How can the PCs discover an ancient map that shows roughly where the roads and cites are to help them navigate if their isn't one? I could make up small details as I go, but sooner or later all those small details need to form a picture. It is much easier to have a fuller picture and reveal tiny bits then to make up random tiny bits then make it into more of a cohesive whole. So no, I was not proceeding from a false premise.
Well, you said it: You have to do it yourself. Sure it's easier to use something someone else made up for you. But you can call that lazy as well.
I'm actually glad that the designers don't include minute details in a myriad of sourcebooks anymore. I agree that the old ones are nice to read, but they curb creativity on the DM's and player's part.
How do I know if the PCs are going to stumble across an ancient road if I don't know where the ancient road is? How do I know the PCs stumble across the ruins of a city if I don't know where they are? How can the PCs discover an ancient map that shows roughly where the roads and cites are to help them navigate if their isn't one? I could make up small details as I go, but sooner or later all those small details need to form a picture. It is much easier to have a fuller picture and reveal tiny bits then to make up random tiny bits then make it into more of a cohesive whole. So no, I was not proceeding from a false premise.
Well, you know what they say about not being able to please all of the people all of the time ...
-- George Krashos
Those maps are free from the WotC free download section anyway, with the Netheril boxed set. Its not like those resources haven't been there a good long while really...
I found that map when I was working on the adventure. Yeah, it's a map that I would then have to convert to the 3.0 version of the Faerun Map. real useful that.
Krash
Well, you know what they say about not being able to please all of the people all of the time ...
Yeah, like who would ever want, you know, a map to the place, right?
Fabius
Well, you said it: You have to do it yourself. Sure it's easier to use something someone else made up for you. But you can call that lazy as well.
At what point did you miss the rational for using a pregenerated setting? The entire point of buying a pregenerated setting is to reduce the workload of the DM in detailing a world. You are essentially saying "Yeah, I know you are picking up the product to have something that you can read and run with, but why don't you just stop and work, retool, seriously think about, edit, and reedit what you come up with and use that? Yeah you wind up not using the book you bought so that you wouldn't have to do all that work, but you want to use the book, right?"
At what point did you miss the rational for using a pregenerated setting? The entire point of buying a pregenerated setting is to reduce the workload of the DM in detailing a world. You are essentially saying "Yeah, I know you are picking up the product to have something that you can read and run with, but why don't you just stop and work, retool, seriously think about, edit, and reedit what you come up with and use that? Yeah you wind up not using the book you bought so that you wouldn't have to do all that work, but you want to use the book, right?"
Easy there.
I think most DMs (and many players) just do that: They buy a sourcebook, take what they like and ignore/change the rest to suit their tastes. That's just a way to make the setting mine, instead of just using something someone else made up. This way, you're using the book all right. You just don't use everything in it as it is written.
If there are gaps, you fill them. That makes it much more enjoyable for you and even the players, who may have read the same book.
Wouldn't it have been easier to keep using the 2e maps then? Not like 3e made a great deal of use out of things like distances between places for stuff...
Given that I use the 3e maps and have been doing so for the past six years, no. The shape and size of the desert is vastly different between the two editions. I would much prefer to stick with the map that makes more sense to me.
This way, you're using the book all right. You just don't use everything in it as it is written.
If there are gaps, you fill them.
I have advocated as much on this thread and others.
You are preaching to the choir.
What, then, is your point?
That you don't need everything laid out for you. You are responsible for the details. The designers provied the framework.
Which is my complaint. I wanted framework. You do not get much more basic in terms of framework then a map.
Stigger
As odd as it may seem, I am a Graphic Designer and I have significantly modified maps of Faerun. I modified the map after my players grew the forest of Cormanthyr, I have modified my world map to show Waterdeep gone, and I will make other changes as well. (BTW I first use Photoshop before putting it into Illustrator to laydown roads, towns, cites, and borders.) But these are things that are relevent to my game that I will continue to refer back to and print out updated versions of my realms and for those reasons I do not mind spending assorted time making these modifications. Reverse engineering such a map for Nethril would have been more of effort then it was worth given as how my players were spending bearly a week in ancient Nethril and it would not hold any further use for me.
Which is my complaint. I wanted framework. You do not get much more basic in terms of framework then a map.
You can get a map easily, as was pointed out here. You use it, put your own stuff in there. Done. You don't have to make up anything elaborate. As you said, you only need it for a short while and don't want to re-use it.
I really don't see your problem here.
You can get a map easily, as was pointed out here.
And as I stated earlier, I found that map while working on the adventure.
I really don't see your problem here.
Meh? I don't see what your problem is either.
You realize it's moot point, right? The adventure was run over a year ago. I went to the product expecting a certain minimum of information and found it lacking. I found 2nd edition material that still didn't cover all the bases, made do, and had my adventure. I am left with the opinion that the product was not as advertised; that it was, in fact, an inferior product. After looking back at the book and reviewing my decisions I made last year, I find that I can only stand by my conclusions.
Well, you said it: You have to do it yourself. Sure it's easier to use something someone else made up for you. But you can call that lazy as well.
You can, but it might be foolish.
In fact, I think the designers themselves would disagree with you (in fact, I can think of a time when one designer vehemently disagreed with the charge that those who needed premade material were "lazy"), otherwise why would they put out adventure modules? Isn't it "lazy" to use a premade module rather than make up the adventure yourself?
Let's not get too judgemental, here.
Lost Empires
Grand History
FRCS
Lords of Darkness
Serpent Kingdoms
Worst
Mysteries of the Moonsea
Player's Guide
The three part adventure that ended 3.5 FR
I'm not a fan of the new adventure layout. No surprise, the best books were the ones mostly fluff filled.