Sure I read Erevis Cale, The Twilight War, the last book hasn't come out yet, and that may be the reason to hold back stuff on him.
Anyone knows??
(I'm sure not making a rogue/rogue-ish char before I know "where" he is...
)Thanks...
Sure I read Erevis Cale, The Twilight War, the last book hasn't come out yet, and that may be the reason to hold back stuff on him.
-Ding, ding, ding.
-Ding, ding, ding.
I was thinking the Gong Show actually....
Also, you can keep Mask in your Realms regardless of what happens in Paul's book, or the 4E Realms in general.
Lady, you are, like, the false nurse next to my bed. Yes, my arm is amputated just below the shoulder. Yes, my entire right foot has suffered severe frostbite. Yes, my spleen is ruptured and I need it out. And, yes, my penier is badly infected and it must come off.
But, man!! Forgotten Realms is like Burger King!! Have it your way!!
No!
Luskan was my arm!! Icewind Dale is my foot! My spleen was Maztica!! And MY PENIER IS THAY!!! DEAD! DEAD, I Tell you!!
Dead. Dead, I say....
I'll let you in on a little secret. Game makers are people just like you and me, and like you and me they can make mistakes.
With what they've done with much of the Realms, they prove this point.
For you or for me or anyone else, what they decided may just be flat out WRONG.
You are the ultimate decider on what you let limit you and the universe you run.
She was just pointing that out.
However, if you choose to accept and be trapped by what people are telling you even though you know its wrong, then I've got this awesome bridge I'd like to sell you...
My point is that Rino is ENTIRELY TOO OPTIMISTIC.
Screw Rich Baker. Rino must be stopped!
Rin--you got a hamster or something I can sacrifice for effect?
Do you always listen to what game makers tell you?
I'll let you in on a little secret. Game makers are people just like you and me, and like you and me they can make mistakes.
Actually, every game maker has a divine rank of 0 or higher.
The more you know.
Actually, every game maker has a divine rank of 0 or higher.
The more you know.
Whoa!! 0?
Intense.
Whoa!! 0?
Intense.
Hey. Don't worry about 4e. Karsus and I are going to sacrifice the dragonborn in order to make 5e 3.5e revived. With Karsus as overdeity of course.
the second fast one is that he warned savras and inturned warned mystra and are now elsewhere kicking back drinking rum, and watching us act like scalawags looking for the rum, cause the rums gone...
You are the ultimate decider on what you let limit you and the universe you run.
She was just pointing that out.
Yes, that was indeed what I was trying to point out.
Sure, backpedal out of the charge of overly enthusiastic hyper optimism... you're just mad because he figured you out. :P :D
No, no, 'course not!:P
Hey. Don't worry about 4e. Karsus and I are going to sacrifice the dragonborn in order to make 5e 3.5e revived. With Karsus as overdeity of course.
-Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.
Yes, that was indeed what I was trying to point out.
You're so "neutral" you should be your own country.
And MY PENIER IS THAY!!! DEAD! DEAD, I Tell you!!
Dead. Dead, I say....
Thay is undead, actually.
...wait, you have an undead *****? does it get women un-pregnant?
I might use him some place in my FR campaign. Jus wait until the last book of the trilogy comes out to see if there are any "fresh" twists or turns that I have to have in mind
Cant wait ....
i wouldn't worry about it... mask is the god of shadows. he was just hiding from the FR player handbook. If the other gods do not know he's there, he figured he couldn't "acquire" more loot than the rest of the pantheon. We all know secret DM logic requires that thieves get more stuff than everyone else. This is no different.
-That makes some sense.
-Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.
Change of plans. We transmute the dragonborn into missiles and fire them at every planet other than Toril. No more planets, no more continent switching.
On a completely unrelated topic, with the mature forums no longer around do we post mature topics in the forum they would go otherwise or are mature topics no longer permitted by WotC?
Change of plans. We transmute the dragonborn into missiles and fire them at every planet other than Toril. No more planets, no more continent switching.
-That works.
On a completely unrelated topic, with the mature forums no longer around do we post mature topics in the forum they would go otherwise or are mature topics no longer permitted by WotC?
-They go in whatever section they would best fit in, but are measured using the same CoC that other threads get measured by, as opposed to the Mature forums, where things were stretched a bit. And I don't mean that as in a sexual euphemism.
-They go in whatever section they would best fit in, but are measured using the same CoC that other threads get measured by, as opposed to the Mature forums, where things were stretched a bit. And I don't mean that as in a sexual euphemism.
Yeah, right.
Change of plans. We transmute the dragonborn into missiles and fire them at every planet other than Toril. No more planets, no more continent switching.
On a completely unrelated topic, with the mature forums no longer around do we post mature topics in the forum they would go otherwise or are mature topics no longer permitted by WotC?
Nah, I should use Elminster's body parts as a boat to sail to Atlantis, use Drizzit's body parts as a flail (don't ask) to ward off the initial natives, and once inside, use every single Zhent mercenary still alive as fish bait and sneak around and activate the ULTIMATE WEAPON while the Zhents are eaten alive.
Show
Mask was once the Herald of Shar.
Well, who cares what happened to Mask. Clearly, the heroes of Faerun are possessed of impossible stupidity after what happens in this book. One more reason to actually play 3.5 until 5th edition comes out, when they hopefully erase this horrid future and replace it with something logical.
I'm not going to spoil it for people, except to say that after this disaster, I hope that my player characters grow some spine and turn the Sharrans into meat chunks.
All it takes is a little effort and 5,000 XP.
I know they told Paul what to write. It doesn't matter. Not even the slightest vein of logic in the world can explain what happened in this book, and quite frankly, I was disgusted with the way the characters behaved. l can barely even imagine this world, with all of it's darkness. There's no way a group of first level characters could even survive in Sembia at this point.
Well, this is all fine and dandy. I just finished Shadowrealm.
Well, who cares what happened to Mask. Clearly, the heroes of Faerun are possessed of impossible stupidity after what happens in this book. One more reason to actually play 3.5 until 5th edition comes out, when they hopefully erase this horrid future and replace it with something logical.
I'm not going to spoil it for people, except to say that after this disaster, I hope that my player characters grow some spine and turn the Sharrans into meat chunks.
All it takes is a little effort and 5,000 XP.
I know they told Paul what to write. It doesn't matter. Not even the slightest vein of logic in the world can explain what happened in this book, and quite frankly, I was disgusted with the way the characters behaved. l can barely even imagine this world, with all of it's darkness. There's no way a group of first level characters could even survive in Sembia at this point.
C'mon, fill us in on this blight!
-Well we do find out thatShowMask was once the Herald of Shar.
C'mon, fill us in on this blight!
I second that. All you must do is notify everyone that you are revealing spoilers, then you can tell us all about what happened in the book and what you thought was good and what was bad about it.
I HATED it, but it's a well written book.
Show
Lessinor, the Herald of Shar, also known as Mask
I second that. All you must do is notify everyone that you are revealing spoilers, then you can tell us all about what happened in the book and what you thought was good and what was bad about it.
Make sure the spoilers are put in an [sblock] or are blacked out, please. Leaving a wide gap isn't enough, especially since people may still quote the spoilers.
Show
-Shar re-claims Mask. Riven has some of Masks divinity thus Masks former Realm is now Rivens Realm. Notice I dont mention Cale in this.
Show-Shar re-claims Mask. Riven has some of Masks divinity thus Masks former Realm is now Rivens Realm. Notice I dont mention Cale in this.
No, just getting sick of her Darkness poking into everything. Well, I've been sick of it for a while now, now its just reaching nausea.
Dark and Empty, Yes she is a *****. I hate dealing with her annoying followers.
Show-Shar re-claims Mask. Riven has some of Masks divinity thus Masks former Realm is now Rivens Realm. Notice I dont mention Cale in this.
I'd actually want to know what happens to Mask myself. I'm not a rogue, and have only been one twice (in Eberron), but he was an...interesting diety.
Shame too many people hate 4E Realms. I suppose they have their own little reasons though...
"Little" reasons? What the heck does that mean?
"Little" reasons? What the heck does that mean?
For real! We all know size does not matter in reasons!
I'm going to go with poorly conceived choice of words... though probably not intentionally insulting.
Point taken.
Remember Bane was blown to bits all across Toril, and somehow came back to life (cough, gag, cough, vomit).
So, is Mask now a slave of Shar, or is he completely destroyed... as far as gods go, that is.
Remember Bane was blown to bits all across Toril, and somehow came back to life (cough, gag, cough, vomit).
Here's something to help visualize their relationship.
Shar = Galactus
Mask = Silver Surfer
Shar got hungry; Mask stopped feeding her. Shar got mad and gobbled up Mask instead.
angelus_obscura (First Son of Shar, Mother Dark)
I was thinking the Gong Show actually....
Lady, you are, like, the false nurse next to my bed. Yes, my arm is amputated just below the shoulder. Yes, my entire right foot has suffered severe frostbite. Yes, my spleen is ruptured and I need it out. And, yes, my penier is badly infected and it must come off.
But, man!! Forgotten Realms is like Burger King!! Have it your way!!
No!
Luskan was my arm!! Icewind Dale is my foot! My spleen was Maztica!! And MY PENIER IS THAY!!! DEAD! DEAD, I Tell you!!
Dead. Dead, I say....
Do you always listen to what game makers tell you?
I'll let you in on a little secret. Game makers are people just like you and me, and like you and me they can make mistakes.
With what they've done with much of the Realms, they prove this point.
For you or for me or anyone else, what they decided may just be flat out WRONG.
You are the ultimate decider on what you let limit you and the universe you run.
She was just pointing that out.
However, if you choose to accept and be trapped by what people are telling you even though you know its wrong, then I've got this awesome bridge I'd like to sell you...
I agree that it's painful what's happened to the Realms, but that's why I refuse to do 4E Realms (or 4E in general). The authors and game designers are very good at their jobs, I just hate the turn they've taken since Hasbro bought them out. For that reason I refuse to buy their products until 5E comes out. Hopefully other people will follow suit and Hasbro will realize they need to learn to let Wizards do their own thing.
fraging Dark and Empty
angelus_obscura (First Son of Shar, Mother Dark)
Starts to sharpen Weaveshear. ;)
Show
I gotta rash wanna see it?
Starts to sharpen Weaveshear. ;)
Come, then. I have no problem taking your other hand. Rivenskryr is hungry.
Show
No, I don't want to see your man-problem.
Mask is a lesser god in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. Then, as far as I can gather, he literally disappears upon the inception of D&D 4th Edition. Is there a way to learn about Mask since the pre-Spellplague era beyond the Kemp books (I had to force myself to finish Shadow's Witness and there is no way I can suffer the other six)?
Maybe Mask shall show up in a D&DI Dieties & Demigods article.
So, what did happen to Mask, assuming it is indeed 1479 DR and the Spellplague did happen?
-He'd be gone.
Are there any answers for Mask's disappearance from the current Realm's pantheon?
-Not that either of the 4e campaign books tell us, or any of the novels that are set post 1,374 DR, thus far.
I do not understand the Shar relationship.
-Mask was her "herald". Proverbially speaking, he went ahead, and 'announced' her arrival, as the duo are multispheric deities. In keeping with Mask's 'Thievery' portfolio and Shar's 'Nilhilism' portfolio, it is Mask who proverbial steals the life from Crystal Spheres by bringing Shar to them, for her to "drain" via her Shadowstorms, which literally leech the life from worlds.
So Shar's Galactus now then? Yeesh...
-So it seems. That makes me like her more, though. Less 'Shadow' and more 'Nihilism'. That's preferable to the other way around, I think. That adds a new, interesting angle to Shar, too. Shar, eater of worlds...
That is a good way to do things... hint, hint.
:P
-I saw more of the nihilistic Shar in all of [the events of the Twilight War trilogy]. Ultimatley, with Mask being her herald, he is stealing something grand and extremely precious: existence itself. The ultimate heist.
-I never liked Mask too much, in and of himself. There always needs to be a deity of thievery, and Mask was never anything special. He never really said/did anything to pull himself from the "stereotypical thief deity" category. His back and forth with Kezef was a start, but that sputtered out fairly quickly, not even garnering many mentions in sourcebooks, as there was a lack of Mask-centric novels until fairly recently. With this new insight into his "career", for the first time (second, if you count Kezef), I can say without lying, "Wow, that Mask is pretty cool".
-None of that is untrue. Even Shar acknowledges that she seeks to "undo" herself. At the end, of course.
Why not do it now? If she ndo herself now there's no reason to care for anything else. Cuz you're dead *****!
Why not do it now? If she ndo herself now there's no reason to care for anything else. Cuz you're dead *****!
'Cause her focus is undoing the world, numbnut! Not herself first.
Why not do it now? If she ndo herself now there's no reason to care for anything else. Cuz you're dead *****!
-That's her dogma, yup. She has to be last, though, because she needs to be the one undoing things. THEN, once all of that is done, then she'll undo herself.
-That's her dogma, yup. She has to be last, though, because she needs to be the one undoing things. THEN, once all of that is done, then she'll undo herself.
That is actually pretty lame - didn't see it that way, so I'm not saying your wrong or anything. Now I understand why some worship Bane and Cyric - cause they belive that they will be better of serving a deity that wants to control the world. But why should a cleric serve Shar, when her goal is to destroy everyone and everything even herself??? I just don't get it.
Ick. With all due respect to Paul Kemp (assuming the Mask/Shar relationship was entirely his idea), I liked it better when Mask was mainly a god of thieves and had little if anything to do with Shar (much less was the "herald" of her world-eating exploits).
I agree.
Just can't get behind nihlism as a concept, much less as one that powerful. I think that it requires a very... simplified version of entropy, that glorifies the breaking down of systems, without acknowledging the whole giving birth to new systems from the decay part. On a cosmic scale, Shar should be one of the weakest deities out there, at least from my world view... everything that's alive would generally rather exist than not exist. Her very existence as a deity is contradictory to her supposed premise of purpose as far as I'm concerned.
Agreed.
I think a god of Nihilism should be a primal being that is more like a force of nature than a scheming godlike being. I could see Talos being about Nihilism instead of Shar.
Anyway I am now thoroughly agaisnt making gods protaginists of any novels. Any attempt to "humanize" them with mortal interests just seems to lessen their godlike nature to me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah the greek gods behaved the same way but I am not a big fan of them either.
I like the gods to be mysterious and want their faith fleshed out by...their CHURCHES.
The people that follow the god and how each church is different depending on where you go is the interesting part or should be.
The whole point of getting rid of Mystra and the NPCs was to make the newer stuff about "normal" protaginists or about the players in the game. Making another god book about the Shadow Drama is not the way to fix things. It will of course sell many novels though. In the end that is why they wish to keep FR alive. That and PC and video games.
That is actually pretty lame - didn't see it that way, so I'm not saying your wrong or anything. Now I understand why some worship Bane and Cyric - cause they belive that they will be better of serving a deity that wants to control the world. But why should a cleric serve Shar, when her goal is to destroy everyone and everything even herself??? I just don't get it.
-She's a deity of nihilism. When it is mentioned in products that her servants are either people who are temporarily down in the dumps that are taken advantage of, or "crazies", they aren't lying. Like I said to someone else, who was questioning the same topic, people serve Shar for the same reason that people kill themselves. Both goals ultimate end in the person's destruction. Why is it more accepted for a person to be able to just kill themselves than to worship Shar?
SPOILERS
The sembian niece thought that bringing back volumvax will just create a dark kingdom with her at his side. I dont think she understood the purpose of shadowstorm. More interesting is that Rivalen, shar's high priest didnt know that fact either. Yes he knew shar has a grand design of darkness and blah blah blah, but in the end he was equally surprsised with her nihilistic aspect. He saw and understood in the end of the book and of course his loss was sweet to the lady.Given all that he sacrificed in the past I think he felt unable to abandon his deity now. Also I doubt the secretive nightseer will reveal his understanding of shar to her other followers.
I wholeheartedly agree with the above posts though. Please no more gods and godlings in the future. We have a whole world to see and we know almost nothing about it.
I think most sharrans dont understand the nihilistic purpose of their deity. Most believe shar is a deity of darkness and secrets. Secrets are collected and used to control others and accumulate power.
-Deities are multifaceted. Nihilism is one of Shar's portfolios, and is an "activity" that she, herself, actively seeks. Secrets and Darkness are two other portfolios that belong to Shar. SHE *is* the deity of secrets and darkness.
The sembian niece thought that bringing back volumvax will just create a dark kingdom with her at his side. I dont think she understood the purpose of shadowstorm. More interesting is that Rivalen, shar's high priest didnt know that fact either. Yes he knew shar has a grand design of darkness and blah blah blah, but in the end he was equally surprsised with her nihilistic aspect. He saw and understood in the end of the book and of course his loss was sweet to the lady.Given all that he sacrificed in the past I think he felt unable to abandon his deity now. Also I doubt the secretive nightseer will reveal his understanding of shar to her other followers.
-None of us knew about it, until it was actually written, I don't think. There's the part about secrets at work.
Poor souls ;)
-That's her dogma, yup. She has to be last, though, because she needs to be the one undoing things. THEN, once all of that is done, then she'll undo herself.
Thanks for elaborating. What the hell would I do without you?
That is actually pretty lame - didn't see it that way, so I'm not saying your wrong or anything. Now I understand why some worship Bane and Cyric - cause they belive that they will be better of serving a deity that wants to control the world. But why should a cleric serve Shar, when her goal is to destroy everyone and everything even herself??? I just don't get it.
You are an obviously privileged and happy person.
Hmm, I've read the trilogy and I havent reached the same conclusion. I think most sharrans dont understand the nihilistic purpose of their deity. Most believe shar is a deity of darkness and secrets. Secrets are collected and used to control others and accumulate power.
Absolutely.
Poor souls ;)
CENSORED them!
Ehh, I, as always, reserve judgment until I have a chance to see what happens...
I've seen some things that have happened. I don't like them. I don't think there's anything wrong with having that opinion--it's only human. I can always change my mind later (though in this case that's unlikely to happen).
The idea that it'd be "better" for me not to have any opinion at all is ridiculous--with that logic, one could argue that I should keep reserving judgment forever because "something else could happen" at an unspecificed date in the future. To me, that is one of the dumbest kinds of stagnancy.
Thanks for elaborating. What the hell would I do without you?
-Be a more/less productive member of society?
I'd go with more myself... not sure it could get any lower than it already is. :P :D
touche
undoing oneself, letting go of/'losing' eartlhy pleasures/bounds, 'becoming' emptiness these arent necessarily evil; lao tzu seems to say pretty much similar stuff..
and shars portfolio of secrets and darkness arent necessarily evil in themselves either; both may be used for good -say; to hide from opression-
though of course shar herself as she is portrayed in novels and elsewhere seems to be evil through and through; everything she strives for can be achieved without the destruction/despair she seems to advocate and enjoy;
still i can easily imagine a goodly deity with the same portfolio
again unrelated to mask but i find shar's portfolio not necesarrily that evil;
undoing oneself, letting go of/'losing' eartlhy pleasures/bounds, 'becoming' emptiness these arent necessarily evil; lao tzu seems to say pretty much similar stuff..
and shars portfolio of secrets and darkness arent necessarily evil in themselves either; both may be used for good -say; to hide from opression-
though of course shar herself as she is portrayed in novels and elsewhere seems to be evil through and through; everything she strives for can be achieved without the destruction/despair she seems to advocate and enjoy;
still i can easily imagine a goodly deity with the same portfolio
The vast majority of portfolios are inherently neutral, but in this setting gods often aren't neutral, themselves.
Shar IS an evil being, even if the aspects of life she rules over aren't evil.
That would just be too much. :rolleye2:
So if Shar is a world eater where does the cosmology fit in with her and Selune being "twins" who fought over the world? Is Selune the Anti Galaticus and the Life giver? How does Mask fit into that?
-Evidence has demonstrated that Shar is multispheric. Nothing that I recall say anything about Selûne being multispheric.
Also, Shar being multi-spheric doesn't neccessarily invalidate the FR creation myths - it merely broadens the playing field. If selune is also multi-spheric (and well she should be), then the creation myth extends to the entire mutli-verse, and not just Realmspace.
-It does depending on the math and the numbers that one chooses to use. If one decides to take Shar's creation as happening "some time in time", ambiguously, there is no problem. If one decides to take Shar's creation as happening within a set time, or within a set time span, as some claim to do, then problems begin to arise. In order for these numbers to be correct, they would have to be checked against any other places that Shar might exist. So far, we know of two- Abeir-Toril, and the world of Ephyras. Since we know very little about Ephyras- and nothing about any other theoretical worlds she existed in- the math cannot be checked out, and it remains a now weakened hypothesis.
-We know that the creation of Shar, Selûne, and the others cannot have been "multiverse wide", as Ao only has complete sovereignty in Realmspace. The closest "linkage" that can be made, seemingly, would be that all across the multiverse, many pantheons and Crystal Spheres have deities (or other entities) that claim to be the harbingers of ultimate doom and destruction, much like Shar.
I don't see any real reason why Selune would go to other worlds very often. She is happy to take care of things back home. Shar, meanwhile, is doing "practice runs" for what she hopes to eventually do to the realms, in places where Selune et al won't get in her way.
Perhaps her interplanar conquests are the reason that she lost sway over some things in the realms, allowing Mystra to turn good and mask to get away from her while she wasn't paying attention.
I'm pretty OK with having a very non-strict chronology associated with this kind of business. It's already been hinted by somebody that the Dawn Cataclysm takes place in a sense "outside of time," making it hard to untangle the effects that are observed on Toril which may or may not be related to it (Aumanator's death and rebirth, the split of Tyche, etc) and some of which seem to occur on a cyclical recurring basis. If things with shar work the same way it might by why everybody seems to know about her allegedly upcoming moment of weakness.
Amuanator take you beech
Or we could just say that Shar is full of it, about being multi-spheric, and ignore it altogether... :D
-It's not just Shar claiming to be. There's some pretty good proof, with her statues in the Fane of Shadows, and with her Shadowstorm engulfing the world of Ephyras. There's a possibility that both aren't related to Shar being multispheric, but if it looks like a dog, and smells like a dog...
If so, then Shar & Selûne could be around 75,000 years old (give or take). Shar had established her divine dominion within the Shadow Plane. The Shadow Plane, at least back at that time, touched upon all the alternate worlds and realities. It seems almost certain that Shar recruited fiends and dark gods from those other worlds to wage the War of Light & Darkness against her sister Selûne and Chauntea. In fact it was probably Shar who introduced the cosmos to the various fiends and archfiends that came to take up residence within the cosmology.
Given her history, it seems likely that Shar spent at least some of her time before the War of Light & Darkness exploring the various worlds and alternate realities that she had access to through the Shadow Plane. It is likely that she manifested avatars and/or fostered worship of herself on these far-flung worlds. Maybe she even consumed or slew a few native gods of darkness and subsumed their worshipper bases.
It seems likely therefore that Shar could have been both born of Realmspace and also a multispheric god having established herself on many other worlds in the many ages since her Realmsian origin some 75,000 years ago (give or take).
It seems likely therefore that Shar could have been both born of Realmspace and also a multispheric god having established herself on many other worlds in the many ages since her Realmsian origin some 75,000 years ago (give or take).
-Her birth and presence as a multispheric deity is not being challenged; as I said, as all of that works out. The birth of Realmspace as having happened circa -76,000 DR is. In order for timeline to be correct, it would have to be checked against the world of Ephyras, where we know Shar exists/existed, and is in the process of consuming, and any other theoretical worlds that Shar exists/existed in, in a similar manner, if any. Given that, with an theoretical infinite amount of possible worlds that Shar could have existed in, the likelihood that Realmspace's birth (and Shar's birth) at around -76,000 DR drops substantially, as this number would have to be checked and verified against any and all of the theoretical worlds that Shar exists/existed in.
Given that, with an theoretical infinite amount of possible worlds that Shar could have existed in, the likelihood that Realmspace's birth (and Shar's birth) at around -76,000 DR drops substantially, as this number would have to be checked and verified against any and all of the theoretical worlds that Shar exists/existed in.
How does that follow? The mere fact that other worlds worship Shar does not in any way challenge her origin in Realmspace. It is logical that Shar--once she discovered other worlds in a greater multiverse--would have sought to spread and foster her worshipper base on as many far-flung worlds as possible. This only makes sense, given the danger of having your worshippers located within only one world; a deity could be forgotten, or have his worshippers succumb to plague, famine, war, catastrophe, cultural dilution or conversion to persuasive philosophies of other gods. Spreading out to other worlds gives a god an insurance policy (putting his eggs in multiple baskets) and increases a god's strength to boot. It is a sensible strategy for Shar to pursue.
76,000 years is plenty of time for Shar to have done that, countless times over. Therefore the existence of a worshipper base for Shar on any other world does not in itself controvert Shar's origin within Realmspace.
Further, it seems a logical fallacy to me to propose that the probability of her Realmspace origin would alter in any way depending on the number of worlds that worship her. The larger her worshipper base, the larger her pool of missionaries that she can send through Deep Shadow to new worlds to spread her faith. Her faith has the potential to grow exponentially. 76 millennia is easily enough time for her to have exposed all the known worlds in the Spelljamming galaxy, and beyond. In fact, with a little elbow grease I bet she could have achieved that in less than a few centuries. I don't see how statistics would change the probability regardless of how many worlds she had infested.
How does that follow? The mere fact that other worlds worship Shar does not in any way challenge her origin in Realmspace.
-Pay closer attention to what I am saying, since your response is not fully relevant to what I was saying. Twice, I said that her existence as a multispheric deity does not challenge her birth in Realmspace. I said that it weakens the various hypothesis' of specific dates that people claim Realmspace to be aged.
76,000 years is plenty of time for Shar to have done that, countless times over. Therefore the existence of a worshipper base for Shar on any other world does not in itself controvert Shar's origin within Realmspace.
-See above, as Shar's origin has nothing to do with anything. All that is needed is a single world in which Shar exists, in which her presence is more than 76,000 years old to throw off the hypothesis that Realmspace is 76,000 years old. Given that the multiverse is infinite, there are an infinite amount of possible worlds in which Shar can possibly have a presence. As such, given the expanse of time that an infinite amount of possible worlds can cover, the hypothesis is weakened, as there is a greater amount of time before 76,000 years ago than there has from 76,000 years to the present.
Further, it seems a logical fallacy to me to propose that the probability of her Realmspace origin would alter in any way depending on the number of worlds that worship her. The larger her worshipper base, the larger her pool of missionaries that she can send through Deep Shadow to new worlds to spread her faith. Her faith has the potential to grow exponentially. 76 millennia is easily enough time for her to have exposed all the known worlds in the Spelljamming galaxy, and beyond. In fact, with a little elbow grease I bet she could have achieved that in less than a few centuries. I don't see how statistics would change the probability regardless of how many worlds she had infested.
-Shar's origin is not what is being questioned. The origin of Realmspace is. Shar is a multispheric deity, no question, and I approve of that, as it adds to her character.
1) There is no evidence that Shar has been worshipped on any world for longer than 76,000 years. Until such evidence actually emerges, there is no reason to doubt the theory or ditch the date. That would be like saying we can't accept Einstein's Theory of Relativity because someone might eventually travel faster than light.
Since it is possible for Shar to have spread her worship to infinite worlds within 76,000 years, the discovery of any additional actual worlds where she is worshipped does not change the probability of the date being wrong or right. The date is either right or it isn't.
While not conclusive, there is evidence to support Ed's date and none (that I am aware of) to contradict the date.
2) But for the sake of argument, if, hypothetically, a world were to be found where Shar had been worshipped longer than 76,000 years, it still does not change the date for Realmspace. And the reason for that is twofold
2a) we do not know that there is a one-to-one correspondence between the time periods of any two worlds, universes, or alternate realities. Just as universes do not share spatial coordinates there is no reason to believe they share time coordinates. There may be arbitrary conventions to regard 1372 DR to correspond with 588 CY in Oerth and 374 AC in Krynn. But these are merely arbitrary. Time seems to slip erratically at odd intervals between the worlds and it is hard to get their timelines to match up. Time slips very erratically between Earth and Toril, so much so that it is hard to make an exact correspondence between an Earth date and a Torilian date. Even Elminster has two portals to Earth that open in different time periods on Earth a century apart.
That we can make any time correspondences at all between universes may be only due to some sort of temporal coordinate being anchored within the portal, spell, or magical means used to travel or translate between universes.
2b) we know that time travel exists in the Realms, by the use of Chronomancy and by the use of time traveling portals.
Given the above examples, were we to (hypothetically) find evidence of Shar worship on another world that could be dated prior to 76,000 years, we cannot rule out that Shar or her missionaries either purposefully or by accident traveled backwards to a prior date within that world's timeline.
3) If Shar had traveled to another world and found a preexisting deity of darkness that predated her own origin circa 75,000 DR, it would still be possible for Shar to kill/eat/subsume that deity and turn the worship of the native god's followers to her own name. If she were clever about it, she might hold herself out as being the same deity with an unbroken history going back to a far distant past, which would give one the impression that she had been worshipped on that world longer than she really had.
There is evidence of a similar phenomenon in Calimshan where Tyr was worshipped as Anachtyr. It is suspected that Tyr simply subsumed the identity of a similar deity who was venerated in Calimshan prior to Tyr's actual arrival in Faerûn.
And so I have a simple question. Does WOTC have a specific date as to when the Realms came into existence? If so, well that's what should be the canon date right?
If there isn't a specific date and that is what started this debate then please forgive my intrusion and continue.
Though I don't think its ever been firmly established as to when Abeir-Toril was actually created, though it has been mentioned when certain species became aware of its existance. Even within the story arc of the Sisters of Light and Darkness, there is distinct hinting at matter existing, and at Chauntea's existing, which as I recall it is what sparked the whole thing in the first place when the living things couldn't grow without a 'sun'.
Barring that whole issue not making much sense from a scientific point of view, there's a lot of time that can exist, since I don't think anyone has ever said it went x years between life starting and the sun being ignited. Depends on how literally you want to take things I guess... sort of like that seven days thing with that book, and what a "day" actually means in that context.
1) There is no evidence that Shar has been worshipped on any world for longer than 76,000 years. Until such evidence actually emerges, there is no reason to doubt the theory or ditch the date. That would be like saying we can't accept Einstein's Theory of Relativity because someone might eventually travel faster than light.
-Again, please read what I said. I didn't say that since she is worshiped in any other worlds, the dates in question have been invalidated. I said that the likelihood of that hypothesis being correct has been weakened, because the amount of time that precedes 76,000 years is infinitely (given that we have no basis but speculation, because now the door is open) larger than the span of time from 76,000 years ago to now.
While not conclusive, there is evidence to support Ed's date and none (that I am aware of) to contradict the date.
-Ed' Greenwood states that scholars believe. Scholars, as Stigger mentioned, are often wrong. That's the only 'evidence', and that's reason enough. Some Earth 'scholars' believe that the Earth is somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years old, according to their 'facts'.
2) But for the sake of argument, if, hypothetically, a world were to be found where Shar had been worshipped longer than 76,000 years, it still does not change the date for Realmspace. And the reason for that is twofold
2a) we do not know that there is a one-to-one correspondence between the time periods of any two worlds, universes, or alternate realities. Just as universes do not share spatial coordinates there is no reason to believe they share time coordinates. There may be arbitrary conventions to regard 1372 DR to correspond with 588 CY in Oerth and 374 AC in Krynn. But these are merely arbitrary. Time seems to slip erratically at odd intervals between the worlds and it is hard to get their timelines to match up. Time slips very erratically between Earth and Toril, so much so that it is hard to make an exact correspondence between an Earth date and a Torilian date. Even Elminster has two portals to Earth that open in different time periods on Earth a century apart.
That we can make any time correspondences at all between universes may be only due to some sort of temporal coordinate being anchored within the portal, spell, or magical means used to travel or translate between universes.
2b) we know that time travel exists in the Realms, by the use of Chronomancy and by the use of time traveling portals.
Given the above examples, were we to (hypothetically) find evidence of Shar worship on another world that could be dated prior to 76,000 years, we cannot rule out that Shar or her missionaries either purposefully or by accident traveled backwards to a prior date within that world's timeline.
-Time travel, I find, is a weak excuse when no others can be found to support/detract a statement, no offense. Occam's Razor. It's much more believable to attribute the date being incorrect than Shar and/or her missionaries having gone back into time, to spread the faith and doctrine across the multiverse, or different Crystal Spheres aging at rates foreign to each other (something I've never heard of, being as that all Crystal Spheres are/were on the same expansive Material Plane).
3) If Shar had traveled to another world and found a preexisting deity of darkness that predated her own origin circa 75,000 DR, it would still be possible for Shar to kill/eat/subsume that deity and turn the worship of the native god's followers to her own name. If she were clever about it, she might hold herself out as being the same deity with an unbroken history going back to a far distant past, which would give one the impression that she had been worshipped on that world longer than she really had.
There is evidence of a similar phenomenon in Calimshan where Tyr was worshipped as Anachtyr. It is suspected that Tyr simply subsumed the identity of a similar deity who was venerated in Calimshan prior to Tyr's actual arrival in Faerûn.
-Possible, though we have no evidence to support such a notion, however. We know of Shar having subsumed a few other deities, but we know nothing of her activity outside of the Crystal Sphere.
And so I have a simple question. Does WOTC have a specific date as to when the Realms came into existence? If so, well that's what should be the canon date right?
-No, there isn't.
Shar most likely originated in Realmspace, or at the very least, was there when the Realms 'came to be'. This is canon, but canon is subject to change, as are interpretations of canon. a 'Creation Myth' may not be much more then exactly that - a MYTH.
That being said, it highly likely that Shar originated in Realmspace and then broadened her body of worship to other spheres. We Know Lolth did exactly that - even though the Drow Curse may have origiated on Toril, E:IoE hints that she was active on other prime worlds before even noticing Toril, and the GhotR confirms this (some-what).
By the same token, we can hold my own personal theory - that Toril was the VERY FIRST Prime World created - to be the reason behind the Creation Myth. That would make all of Toril's original Panthoen VERY exceptional, in that they were the first 'gods' to spread out amongst the multiverse (but not all of them may have done so).
Also, who's to say Selune doesn't have a presence elsewhere? The absence of proof is not proof to the contrary. For all we know, Hecate could be another alias for Selune, or any of a hundred other 'Moon Goddesses'.
In that light, we see that Mystra was the aberration - on other worlds, we have the dichotomy of 'Light' and 'darkness', represented by 'the Night', and the Moon that sheds it light upon the world. The Moon is the 'magic' that chases the darkness back into the shadows. Mystra un-balanced this equation, but her existance was only resigned to Realmspace, where the on-going war between Shar and Selune accidentally created her.
So both goddesses may be representative of much older, primordial beings, and the Myth really starts at the beginning of the multiverse. The version we get in Realmslore is the version with Mystra - who is unique to Toril, along with her Weave. What we have here is the locals (Torillians) thinking their version was 'the war', when all they know about is a single battle.
I find it equally interesting that the Dragons have a similar Creation myth, but it also talks about TWO sun gods - neither of which existed at the same time as the other.
Sound familiar? :D
Since we have no time-frame for the Myths - and it could very well be that time itself wasn't 'around' when the myths began - we can't really tell if Shar and Selune began there fight some 50 million years ago, and the one, single battle that resulted in the creation of Mystra (in Realmspace - the war could have been taking place across multiple planes, like the Bloodwar) ocurred a mere 75,000 years ago. Reading the myth, most are assuming that is something that happened within a matter of days, perhaps even hours, but the truth is the story could have spread over Aeons!
Anyhow, there are plenty of other canon examples of powerful multi-spheric deities that still have to 'listen to' Ao when in Realmspace. Ao's personal strength has no bearing on the hierarchy. You may be physically more powerful then your boss, but you still have to listen to him when your at work. Corellon is a perfect exmple of this - on a purely multi-spheric level, Corellon is FAR better known among the Planes (and the Great Wheel) then 'little ol' Ao'.
Actually, taking 4e into account, Shar and Selune couldn't possibly be gods - they would have to be Primordials, since Primordials came before the gods. So if primordials - like Kossuth and Istishia - are multi-spheric (which they are), then it stands to reason that BOTH Shar and selune are Primordial Muti-speric beings. The only difference being, we have no canon lore telling us abut Selune's 'other worldy' connections (aside from her own Netherease Enclave, just like Shar has).
And, of course, not all Primordials have to be multi-spheric - they are just more likely to be so, just as some gods may have 'graduated' up to that honor (like Bane, or even Tyr). In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that 'Shar' and 'Selune' are just local names for much older powers of 'Light' and 'Darkness'. A name is just a name, after all - it's part of the being, not the other way around.
In fact... I think maybe the only 'real' difference between gods and primordials is that primordials came about before the Prime Material was formed, and the gods came about after. Its really nothing more then a 'generational' thing.
the likelihood of that hypothesis being correct has been weakened, because the amount of time that precedes 76,000 years is infinitely (given that we have no basis but speculation, because now the door is open) larger than the span of time from 76,000 years ago to now.
I am reading what you said but your argument is a logical fallacy. It is a non-sequitur.
While your statement is true that the time preceding the date is infinitely greater than the amount of time between that date and the present, it is also true that the square of the hypotenuse is the sum of the squares of the other two sides and that the Declaration of Independence was signed on July 4th, 1776 and that my mom bakes a really good lasagna. None of those statements have anything to do with the likelihood that Ao created Realmspace circa -76,000 DR.
Scholars, as Stigger mentioned, are often wrong. That's the only 'evidence', and that's reason enough. Some Earth 'scholars' believe that the Earth is somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years old, according to their 'facts'.
Technically that assertion is not "evidence". It is an argument as to the credibility of the source. This argument is also a logical fallacy. It is called "The Base Rate" Fallacy. It is a fallacy because, while it may be true that scholars are sometimes wrong, it is also true that scholars are often right. In general scholars are more often right than wrong. Therefore, in considering the entire set of Toril's sages collectively (at least the ones who have opined on the matter), the probability that the date is correct is more probable than the possibility of it being wrong.
Time travel, I find, is a weak excuse when no others can be found to support/detract a statement, no offense. Occam's Razor. It's much more believable to attribute the date being incorrect than Shar and/or her missionaries having gone back into time, to spread the faith and doctrine across the multiverse, or different Crystal Spheres aging at rates foreign to each other (something I've never heard of, being as that all Crystal Spheres are/were on the same expansive Material Plane).
Why is it that people often say "no offense" after saying something offensive? I take it by saying "no offense" you did not intend your statement to apply here? If you recall, time travel was one of 3 numbered rationales I mentioned (4 if you count both 2a and 2b). Were you trying to say that you don't think it is a weak excuse in this instance for the reason that I supported it with other examples?
As for your "Occam's razor" argument, it does not hold water for 2 reasons:
1) I do not accept your premise that it is "more believable" that Faerûnian sages are wrong than the possibility that in traveling between worlds/universes the missionaries arrived at a date that might correspond on some arbitrary timescale to a date prior to 76,000 years ago. I think I made a pretty good case that temporal coordinates are not fixed between D&D universes. We have evidence of that with Elminsters portal to Earth in the late 19th century (mentioned in the Realmspace supplement). Manual of the Planes p.43 talks about time-shifted material planes, while p.10 talks about planar traits of flowing time, erratic time and timeless planes. Not to mention the Chronomancy sourcebook which discussed time travel magic and the Perilous Portals series of articles on the WotC website which enumerated several time-traveling portals. In the D&D universe the flow of time is a sincere consideration when traveling between worlds and realities.
2) You have engaged in another logical fallacy, the fallacy of "shifting the burden of proof". The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. Proof requires that the assertion be true under all circumstances.
Your assertion is that "All that is needed is a single world in which Shar exists, in which her presence is more than 76,000 years old to throw off the hypothesis that Realmspace is 76,000 years old." I proposed 3 reasonable circumstances under which Shar might well have been worshipped on other worlds for longer than 76,000 years. Your assertion fails to hold true under all circumstances. Ergo your assertion is proven false.
Look, it may seem silly to argue the point, but I have never asserted that the 75,000 years ago dating was "true" but rather the best estimate based on:
1) We have pretty good evidence that Ao exists.
2) The creation of Realmspace is attributed to Ao.
3) If he created it (not saying he did, can't rule out that the Ao story could just be a myth) then he had to have created it at SOME point in time.
4) Per Ed Greenwood "As for the geological age of Toril, we don’t know for sure. However, I can say that the eldest elves and dragons who’ve considered the matter, and the best-informed human sages ditto, all tend to hold opinions that suggest Toril is twice as old as the Age of Thunder... or perhaps a LITTLE less." (*note: the Age of Thunder began circa -35,000 DR, which was around 36,500 years ago, so twice that would actually be around 73,000 years ago. I had rounded up to 75K but re-reading Ed's quote might put things closer to circa -70,000 DR.)
5) Ed Greenwood's contract with WotC states that anything he says about the Realms is canon unless contradicted by published lore. Therefore Ed's quote is official (insofar as the above mentioned sages do hold such opinions)
6) Assuming that these folks are pretty savvy and know more about their universe than we do, and
7) Nowhere in lore (that I am aware of) is there proposed any other competing date.
Considering the above sum of information, I merely claim that Ed's proposed dating is the best estimate we have for the age of Toril and suffices for a pretty decent working theory until any further lore comes along.
By the same token, we can hold my own personal theory - that Toril was the VERY FIRST Prime World created - to be the reason behind the Creation Myth. That would make all of Toril's original Panthoen VERY exceptional, in that they were the first 'gods' to spread out amongst the multiverse (but not all of them may have done so).
I can't say your theory is wrong, but the evidence does not seem to support it. Toril's recorded history only goes back 35,000 years (that we know). While Eberron's recorded history goes back 300,000 years. If I recall (from a timeline that Rip VanWormer put together) Greyhawk's history, or at least the history of it's cosmos, goes back about a million years.
My understanding is that Toril's cosmos is actually one of the younger ones. I would guess that Greyhawk's cosmos is the oldest (that we know) based on recorded history and also the fact that it was the first ever D&D campaign world being Gary Gygax's original campaign world.
In On Hallowed Ground Toril's deities are referred to as single-sphere deities and as "new gods" rising to prominence only in recent centuries bursting out to establish themselves as planar powers.
Personally I kinda like the idea that Realmspace was created by Ao relatively recently on the cosmic timescale.
Technically that assertion is not "evidence". It is an argument as to the credibility of the source. This argument is also a logical fallacy. It is called "The Base Rate" Fallacy. It is a fallacy because, while it may be true that scholars are sometimes wrong, it is also true that scholars are often right. In general scholars are more often right than wrong. Therefore, in considering the entire set of Toril's sages collectively (at least the ones who have opined on the matter), the probability that the date is correct is more probable than the possibility of it being wrong.
So its likely that all those different species of flora, fauna, and monster just evolved into the states we know them in 76,000 years? That just strains credibility way past the breaking point for me. That right there says to me the scholars, and the date, are just hopelessly incorrect.
Considering the above sum of information, I merely claim that Ed's proposed dating is the best estimate we have for the age of Toril and suffices for a pretty decent working theory until any further lore comes along.
-And, as I have said time and time again, I do not refute the dating that has mused upon and hypothesized by scholars, nor do I seek to create an alternative. The presence of Shar as a multispheric deity, however, weakens the hypothesis that Realmspace is 76,000 years old.
Our own Earth is only around 50,000 years old.
Or do you believe those silly scientists and all their crazy thories? Show me two examples of carbon14 dating that even come within a thousand years of each other, and I'll eat my hat. The same thing, tested by multiple labs, will have a different result every time.
Science is FALLIBLE, and recently we discovered that evolution takes place MUCH quicker then we ever imagined.
Scientists 'make up stuff', and then they 'make up the science' to prove it. Physicists are the worst of the lot - no two agree, and they just keep re-doing the equations until they get to one that works with their theory... and then stop.
Thats not science, thats a bunch of guys making up stuff and publishing it in journal so they can get into some mutual back-slapping.
Hmmmm... sounds a lot like Game-designing...
BTW, I don't think GH is that old, at all - I used to run it for years, and the oldest history only goes back a few thousand years. Eberron is older, but only because Keith B. is a jealous little pr!%$ who can't hold a candle to Ed and copied his whole setting from Iron Kingdoms and decided to make 'his' setting older just because it was 'kewl' - I refer to this as the 'Baker Fallacy'. :P
Toril is the oldest planet in the universe, because that assumption would allow much other lore to make more sense in light of it. If you make Toril the youngest world, the entire cosmology begins to fall apart.
Why is Toril's magic unique? Why are Torillian Gods so bloody important to the Universe? Asmodeus eats one and becomes 'Uber' EVERYWHERE? Mystra dies, and the inner Planes get re-arranged?
Sorry... not buying it. Toril has some sort of DEEP connection to the rest of the Multiverse, and it's being the youngest planet would make no sense.
What I will agree on is that this version of Toril is fairly new and perhaps 75,000 years old... but who's to say that there wasnt something before this? The Myths make it seem like there was more, and Ao had to come from somewhere (he even has a boss!) If aything, -75,000 DR was probably just a re-boot in a long line of re-boots, and the universe, and the war of Light & Darkness stretches back to the begining of time.
Oh, and since I joined this argument - sort of - is there any evidence of Shar 'mucking about' on a planet older then Toril? What of this 'Ephyras'? Does it say that planet is older, and even if so, does it say Shar's had presence there longer then 70,000 years?
Because if not, you guys are arguing over stuff that doesn't exist, and that's just... silly. ;)
Seriously, until we have something in canon that says Shar existed prior to -70,000 DR, ANYWHERE, we have to assume that the creation of Toril is her earliest 'appearance'. There's no need to 'make up worlds' just to prove FR has continuity problems - lord knows the 4e team has done that aplenty.
Edit: Please mail me some of that Lasagna.
the oldest crystal sphere may be Earth, cause the pantheons of Earth are much more important in the planes
Selune is only important cause of the Infinite Staircase, which seems to be not so primordial
Toril's magic is unique, but so is the magic of other crystal spheres
4e Core Asmodeus isn't 4e FR Asmodeus
Why?
Our own Earth is only around 50,000 years old.
Or do you believe those silly scientists and all their crazy thories? Show me two examples of carbon14 dating that even come within a thousand years of each other, and I'll eat my hat. The same thing, tested by multiple labs, will have a different result every time.
Science is FALLIBLE, and recently we discovered that evolution takes place MUCH quicker then we ever imagined.
Scientists 'make up stuff', and then they 'make up the science' to prove it. Physicists are the worst of the lot - no two agree, and they just keep re-doing the equations until they get to one that works with their theory... and then stop.
Thats not science, thats a bunch of guys making up stuff and publishing it in journal so they can get into some mutual back-slapping.
I'm really not trying to derail the thread, but when you talk about making up stuff, that's not science. That's people who think they can use easily manipulated data to prove their own theories, they are entirely unethical, and the scientific community catches all of these eventually. Yes, science is fallible, but you can't throw out all of it just because some of it hasn't been figured out yet. Science is a process that takes time, effort, and expanded ways of thinking, as well as a little luck. You can say that you don't believe carbon dating is accurate, or that you don't believe what scientists say about evolution, but you can't discount every scientific advancement ever made by saying that scientist "make stuff up."
But that's completely off-topic, and I still vaguely agree with LK on this particular matter, so yeah...
Well Imo opinion this debate can easily......ooh look chocolate milk
(sniffs it to see if Judge hasn't spiked it again:ahemWhat that means is that they think their own personal senses see into all bands of light, and can listen into all audio ranges, etc...
That they have invented every type of measuring instrument already...
That everything there is to know about this planet of ours is already known...
That their limited grasp of mathematics can somehow 'discern' where and when the universe 'happened'...
That is the most POMPOUS, EGOTISTICAL way of looking at things I ever heard of. I'm sure there are at least a hundred alien races that observe us on a daily basis because we are so bloody amusing. They probably have human 'reality shows'...
There is a shark that was thought to have gone extinct 18 million years ago! We just found it...
I posted the article about evolution above...
The 'dinosaur dying by meteor' theory has been completely dismissed by a single scientist - NO dinosuar remains have EVER been found in the same layer of strata as that of the Yucatan collision. You know what the rest of the community says? We just haven't found any yet...
When I was a kid, I learned in a school history book that Betsy Ross sewed the American Flag. We now know that that was a LIE made-up be her grandson. What we know today as 'the truth' is just everyone's 'best guess', and nothing more.
To quote Men in Black -
"Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow. "
I love that line, because it's so poignant - our scientists are cavemen looking at the natural world and 'making up stories' - they are little better then the primitives who blamed everything on gods.
For them to even believe they know more then .1% about our universe, or even our world around us, is just ego.
Everday they are proven wrong, and then they simple re-adjust their 'theories' to compensate. I do not trust any of them...
P.T. Barnum would have fit right in...
I agree that evolution takes jumps
for Realmspace I like that it's 70 000 years old, as some kind of experiment
Which is why I say that Mask still might be around there somewhere, and that he probably had a contingency plan or six just waiting to unleash him back upon the world when Shar finally has her plot armor removed.
Even though Brandobaris should have ganked him long ago and put him in his miserable and insignificant place...
And isn't Shar=Loth in 4th? So she already had multi-sphere worship.
Also
Show
wasn't Cyric listed as one of the God's of shadow in the shadow realms trilogy? SO does this mean that he is Shar's whipping boy too?
And isn't Shar=Loth in 4th?
-No.
And stigger - whats the difference between them, and the Shaman who used to make 'their best guess' about the forces of nature, and create all the myths about the gods?
"What makes the most sense at this moment" is always the accepted answer, but as we have learned, 99% of the time we ned to adjust our thinking at a later date.
How does this all relate to FR you ask? :D
Simple - don't bother trying to 'reason out' why things are the way they are - we know damn well what the answer is, and it has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary game-world.
And in a couple of years, when a new team is assigned to the Realms (if there even is a Realms), it will all change all over again, and everything will be retconned once again.
These guys change their minds from day to day - stop trying to make sense of this abortion. Just take the old setting, sprinkle-in whatever you like from the new one, and maybe some stuff from a few others, and make it your own.
They don't have better ideas then you - the players and DMs - do, they just get paid for it.
Fix your sig.
No CENSORED.
[center][u][size="2"]
And stigger - whats the difference between them, and the Shaman who used to make 'their best guess' about the forces of nature, and create all the myths about the gods?
"What makes the most sense at this moment" is always the accepted answer, but as we have learned, 99% of the time we ned to adjust our thinking at a later date.
Oh, I dunno... the empircal evidence, the peer review, the reproducability of results things sort of make a wee tiny bit of a difference. I don't see a problem with adjusting our thinking at a later date, since without scientific progress, we'd have no reason to adjust our thinking. Most of the time when something is adjusted, its because our previous thoughts didn't quite appreciate the true depth and scope of the subject... unless of course you're saying we should live in ignorance and never adjust our points of view to take into account new discoveries...
Take 4e for example... and the 4e Realms in particular. We knew that the designers and novels could take some pretty wacky steps in their work, but did we really think that they could or would go as far as they have? Didn't the experience teach us a valuable lesson here, to look with a more critical eye to the crap being shovelled at us?
I mean really, considering the popularity of Cale and Mask, was anyone really expecting Mask to get consumed by Shar? To kill off a lucrative deity and character like that was just brilliant, and very indicative of the general attitude of 4e. If its not Shar or Cyric, don't get too attached to it is the lesson we should be taking away from this. So indeed, we have learned something new about the Realms. :D
Not so much at you, but rather at what you said there at the end.
I guess it does't matter who or what the fans want - the setting obviously isn't our playground anymore.
I keep thinking there is going to be a light at the end of the tunnel, but it keeps getting worse and worse. Thank goodness I started keeping the optomist in me chained up...
... in a cage... at the bottom of a VERY deep gorge... in hell.
I mean really, considering the popularity of Cale and Mask, was anyone really expecting Mask to get consumed by Shar?
-No. I was expecting Cale to die (the writing just seemed to be on the wall), but I wasn't expecting Mask to bite the big one.
-No. I was expecting Cale to die (the writing just seemed to be on the wall), but I wasn't expecting Mask to bite the big one.
That seems a bit backwards in logic to me, considering you had a 4e preview prior to the novel.
So:
That seems a bit backwards in logic to me, considering you had a 4e preview prior to the novel.
-The FRCG doesn't mention Mask or Erevis Cale in name. It does say that Masks' Divine Realm stayed around, which led me to believe that nothing was going to happen to him. When a deity dies, his/her/it's Divine Realm breaks apart and disintegrates.
All I can say is: lame.
I didn't recall it as being a "divine realm."
-It says simply his "abode". I took it to meaning his Divine Realm. It's called "Shadow Keep" in the FRCG, which was the name of his Divine Realm in 2e and 3e, so...
-It says simply his "abode".
Exactly.
I took it to meaning his Divine Realm. It's called "Shadow Keep" in the FRCG, which was the name of his Divine Realm in 2e and 3e, so...
Did we just assume something, Mr. LK. P. Barthmulibutt?
If there is one thing for sure we have learned by 4e, is that the designers are 100% INCAPABLE of creating new names for stuff.
They just take old ones and recycle them.
Well, Mr. Wilson, let me put Mr. Rogers' sweater on you so we can discuss the essence of lame.
And here I thought YOU were more about Mr. Rogers taking his sweater off...
And here I thought YOU were more about Mr. Rogers taking his sweater off...
Innuendos will not sway me to your side of the fence, you goat CENSORED goonie!!
Though the 'new' name might be an indicator... though they could ban by IP address these days. :P
Well, Mr. Wilson, let me put Mr. Rogers' sweater on you so we can discuss the essence of lame.
I suppose I could have justified why I thought it was lame, but I was irked at the time and didn't want to say something that would get me banned.
I find it distressing that basically everything "bad" that happened to bring about 4E FR can directly be placed at Shar's doorstep and that she is now the FR supervillian. One could argue she was as well in 3.X, but this is just getting a tad ridiculous, IMO.
So, yeah, lame.
Though the 'new' name might be an indicator... though they could ban by IP address these days. :P
Every so often my ISP changes my IP address. It doesn't happen very often (less then once a year), but I could call them up -anytime - and request they change it, in which case I would have no problem working around an IP-banning.
However, the 3 times I was banned, I didn't find this site worth the effort. If they ever ban me for good, I'll just ramp-up my efforts elsewhere. :D
-I don't know; the principle of parsimony seems to work just fine for me, here: "It smells like a dog, it barks like a dog, it must be a dog..."
Or, if it smells like a dog and I want to convince the world it’s a cat….
For the life of me, I can't quite fathom how JD has avoided getting banned by now...
Though the 'new' name might be an indicator... though they could ban by IP address these days. :P
Eh. Told the ORCS to meet me in the playground at 3:00pm. Said I was going to kick ‘em in the butt.
They took offense.
THAT IS A PAST (NON)THREAT AND NOT CURRENT ORC-TYPE PEOPLE. Just explaining why I was banned before.
--
Anyway, when EB was still(?) around, LK and I discussed the IP thing. Not on their agenda.
--
I suppose I could have justified why I thought it was lame, but I was irked at the time and didn't want to say something that would get me banned….
Just givin’ you CENSORED. ;)
Yeah, true enough... the red "censored" thing is starting to get on my nerves though.
CENSORED you!!
Wait....
you!!That better? I am here to please, after all. :D
Spellplague
Knowledge
Auspiciously
Missing.
That is all, we now return you to your regular posting thank you
On another note, I for one am glad that Mask died. My only real complaint is that he went out like a punk and didn't take Shar with him.
This just in: The god formerly known as MASK has since became SKAM. He is now known as the god of:
Spellplague
Knowledge
Auspiciously
Missing.
That is all, we now return you to your regular posting thank you
That would almost be ingenious. Except MASK backwards is KSAM.
In which case, you just played an incredibly bad game of scrabble with yourself.
Maybe his son will take his place and we can call him "Half-Mask"...
You know... like the one Robin wears... the mask makes you kewl... :D
Edit: Do we definately know it's a male? I think having a female god of thieves would be pretty cool for a change (Masquette?)
Maybe his son will take his place and we can call him "Half-Mask"...
-He'll probably be the same ol' Mask all over again, the "original" having implanted a seed of his soul in the little guy, kind of like what Bane did with his "son".
I like Bane better then Mr. Unpronouncable name, but that entire storyline was just weird for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Bane is back (he's one of my favorites), but I don't even understand why we ever got that storyline about his son (a "son of Satan" type of scenario?)
Anyway, the original Mask 'bursting forth' from the body of his child would be so horribly redudndant that... that... they'll probably do it.
Lets take a vote - who wants someone like Elminster's daughter becoming the new god of Thieves?
Not that character herself - I mean someone just like her (although she would be an intersting possibility).
A Realmsified 'Huntress' type of character, all about stealth and trickery.
Hmmm... now I'm thinking Basst/Sharess could actually fit this role.
Lets take a vote - who wants someone like Elminster's daughter becoming the new god of Thieves?
-Not I. I'd rather have Mask burst forth once more, however cliche it might be, than an elevated Faerûnian mortal.
Edit: Do we definately know it's a male? I think having a female god of thieves would be pretty cool for a change (Masquette?)
I'm pretty sure the mention of a "son" was key.
-Not I. I'd rather have Mask burst forth once more, however cliche it might be, than an elevated Faerûnian mortal.
At either point, I would prefer a gradual knowledge of the inherited divinity.
Mask doesn't get it until he is 17 or so, then....
At either point, I would prefer a gradual knowledge of the inherited divinity.
Mask doesn't get it until he is 17 or so, then....
-Either way is possible, depending on which direction "they" go with it.
-Either way is possible, depending on which direction "they" go with it.
After hearing Kemp, I wouldn't be surprised if he has more power over this than we give him credit for.
I mean really, considering the popularity of Cale and Mask, was anyone really expecting Mask to get consumed by Shar? To kill off a lucrative deity and character like that was just brilliant, and very indicative of the general attitude of 4e. If its not Shar or Cyric, don't get too attached to it is the lesson we should be taking away from this. So indeed, we have learned something new about the Realms.
They are just setting it all up for Mask to consume Shar from the inside and explode or something. Then Shar dies and her dead realm crashes into Cyric and kills both of them.
Then Netheril explodes shortly afterwards from a giant religious civil war.
Lets take a vote - who wants someone like Elminster's daughter becoming the new god of Thieves?
Not that character herself - I mean someone just like her (although she would be an intersting possibility).
A Realmsified 'Huntress' type of character, all about stealth and trickery.
That sounds a lot of like the core Sehanine.
They are just setting it all up for Mask to consume Shar from the inside and explode or something. Then Shar dies and her dead realm crashes into Cyric and kills both of them.
Then Netheril explodes shortly afterwards from a giant religious civil war.
See, now you're just being mean and teasing me with something we all know is never going to actually happen... :P
:D
We must hold onto hope.
What about his former Seraph Avner Hartsomething. I mean after all he did free Mystra from one of Helms prisons back when Helm was actually able to guard something.
-Avner of Heartsvale. Yes, he still exists. Or did before Mask "left", anyway.
Ugh... worst storyline EVA.
I like Bane better then Mr. Unpronouncable name, but that entire storyline was just weird for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Bane is back (he's one of my favorites), but I don't even understand why we ever got that storyline about his son (a "son of Satan" type of scenario?)
Anyway, the original Mask 'bursting forth' from the body of his child would be so horribly redudndant that... that... they'll probably do it.
Lets take a vote - who wants someone like Elminster's daughter becoming the new god of Thieves?
Not that character herself - I mean someone just like her (although she would be an intersting possibility).
A Realmsified 'Huntress' type of character, all about stealth and trickery.
Hmmm... now I'm thinking Basst/Sharess could actually fit this role.
Tazi ?
Surely you've realised by now if enough people complain enough it will happen.
We must hold onto hope.
Not really... I think it only matters if those complaints are sympathetic with the designers opinions in the first place.
Besides, I've mostly given up on the Realms as a gaming setting for the moment. SW Saga has proven a definite salve for the soul thus far. :D
Tazi ?
-Have you ever read The Crimson Gold?
The SKAM was intentional JD, Because he's not just backwards he's all effed up plus the little turd is always hiding something
Oh. Thanks for explaining that, I thought I was simply dysfunctional and stupid for not figuring that one out.
Granted, that may be the case, but come on, man!!
Tazi ?
Sure! :D
-Have you ever read The Crimson Gold?
Nope. But I like her in the Sembia series. Oh Oh how bout Shamur? I LOVE that character!
Nope. But I like her in the Sembia series. Oh Oh how bout Shamur? I LOVE that character!
-Horrible book. Don't read it. It has her in it, as the protagonist.
-Horrible book. Don't read it. It has her in it, as the protagonist.
25 pages won't kill someone. ;)
25 pages won't kill someone. ;)
I don't know about that JD, I mean Artus's journal did kill the God of the Batiri
;)I don't know about that JD, I mean Artus's journal did kill the God of the Batiri
Yes.
And I'm so concerned about that, that I have no idea what you are yapping about.
25 pages won't kill someone. ;)
-Tell that to all of those people who died because of Torquemada. Though, that might have been a little more than 25 pages, what he was pushing on them, but still.
I mean, my puppy did eat 25 pages of my FRCG and ended up dying from lack of substance, after all.
Dumb dog.
Alright. I give. See your point.
I mean, my puppy did eat 25 pages of my FRCG and ended up dying from lack of substance, after all.
-Nice.
-Nice.
There you have it people!
So stop CENSORED asking!
Yes.
And I'm so concerned about that, that I have no idea what you are yapping about.
Ever read "The Ring of Winter". When Artus was thrown into that pit to be devoured by Grumog the God of the Batiri(cannibal goblins) and bit into Artus's journal?
Ever read "The Ring of Winter". When Artus was thrown into that pit to be devoured by Grumog the God of the Batiri(cannibal goblins) and bit into Artus's journal?
Dude, I am completely uncouth. Where the hell would I find time to get cultured and read something like that?
Explains a lot about you if you find FR novels "cultured"...
Is that what I said, you nincompoop!
Dude, I am completely uncouth. Where the hell would I find time to get cultured and read something like that?
Yes, actually it is what you said...
And about Shadowrealm:
Show
Shocking novel indeed. Lessinor left some contingencies but he was lying to himself while doing it with Shar. And we never learned who was the fifth chosen. I loved the characterisation of the gods in the series, the scenes were interestingly paced.
Ephyras was interesting, especially with the sense of multiple spots of annihilation eating that world. I only thought oblivion would be more cataclysmic, but Shar's shadowstorm works at a steady pace, a deliberate conversion of life through drainage into lifelessness and eventually the void.
I would like to see a female god of thieves too, so Cale's child should turn out a daughter.
Ephyras was interesting, especially with the sense of multiple spots of annihilation eating that world. I only thought oblivion would be more cataclysmic, but Shar's shadowstorm works at a steady pace, a deliberate conversion of life through drainage into lifelessness and eventually the void.
I would like to see a female god of thieves too, so Cale's child should turn out a daughter.
And about Shadowrealm:ShowAnd we never learned who was the fifth chosen.
Show-I have a feeling that we'll never know, and it'll always be "left blank".
ShowPerhaps he will play a role in the Cycle of Night trilogy.
And about Shadowrealm:ShowShocking novel indeed. Lessinor left some contingencies but he was lying to himself while doing it with Shar. And we never learned who was the fifth chosen. I loved the characterisation of the gods in the series, the scenes were interestingly paced.
Ephyras was interesting, especially with the sense of multiple spots of annihilation eating that world. I only thought oblivion would be more cataclysmic, but Shar's shadowstorm works at a steady pace, a deliberate conversion of life through drainage into lifelessness and eventually the void.
I would like to see a female god of thieves too, so Cale's child should turn out a daughter.
-Maybe, but I'd prefer that he/she not. Personally speaking, I'd prefer if that trilogy never came to be- it's no knock against Paul Kemp, who most certainly has a winning combination, with his Erevis Cale and Twilight War trilogies, but I don't want to see another "Drizzt" born- a story, even with different characters, that just keeps on going and going and going, with no real end.
Well, it entirely would depend on how popular he/she becomes. Three plausible reasons that this could become what you least like to happen.
1. It's not about Drizzt(which is attractive to the many people who anti-drizzt)
2. PK is writing this (who I have gathered is a excellent author who can capture his audience)
3. It will make money( WoTC will bleed it dry and then some for every brown cent it can)
A little of topic LK, Sorry
Though for the most part, I'd largely agree with Drizztmanchild's last post there. Its just a matter of time before we get a "New-Drizzt"... though I seem to be having a cynical moment and don't think it'll be a freelancer's baby if they can at all help it.