Why is this? Here are my theories.
1. Adaptability. Unlike some races, humans have the ability to adapt to a large number of environments.
2. High birthrate. Compared to some races, humans breed like rabbits. The high birthrate requires them to settle and conquer more land, forcing them to become ever expanding.
3. Decent intelligence. While not the most intelligent of the species, humans have something other species like their own (Orcs and goblins come to mind) do not have: decent intelligence. This enhances their adaptability, but also allows them to break patterns that do not aid their species, such as creating civilization instead of living in barbarism.
4. A short life span. This is perhaps the most important, and I want to expound upon this in some detail.
The longer lived races don't feel the weight of time like humans do. There is less fear of death, no desire to conquer your mortality before your mortality conquers you.
From an Elven perspective, humans always seem to be rushing about and in a hurry. Yet, in a mere 50 years a human wizard (assuming he has some natural talent) can become a near equal to any elven mage. The elven mage may have taken as long as two-hundred years to reach the same potential.
The longer your life, the less the desire to grow, expand, gain power exists within - in a human it is a burning fire, but to an elf it is a small ember. To go a step further, look through the eyes of someone who is immortal. What use is wanting to gain power to overthrow a nearby kingdom, when you can just wait for the kingdom to crumble on its own? So what if it takes 100,000 years? All you have is time.
Humanity is driven to seek knowledge, power, strength, and achieve their goals before the clock runs out. It's perhaps one of the core reasons that they have been so successful in conquering much of the Realms.
An Elf, for example, has less to fear from death - it will be centuries away. There is no knowledge that they must have immediately, they can afford to wait a little while. Over time, and throughout the culture, this can lead to complacency.
Look at Elven or Dwarven culture. It adapts slowly over time, and in most cases resists change. Yet human culture is resilient and adapts virtually immediately to deal with new challenges and threats. This ensures that humans are the key innovators of the world, always ahead of the curve, providing them with everything they need to completely dominate the world.
Thoughts? ;)
An Elf, for example, has less to fear from death - it will be centuries away. There is no knowledge that they must have immediately, they can afford to wait a little while. Over time, and throughout the culture, this can lead to complacency.
There was a novel or in a sourcebook something said about death seen from the evlish perspective (maybe it was one of those Drizzt brabblings in one of RAS' novels). They have even more to fear from death than humans, because if an elf dies early he loose much more than some decades. He looses centuries to see things change and make expierences and since they need a while to start a family and then much longer to raise their children they would even risk that.
Humans on the other hand live only some decades and if they don't change during this short period of time anything, they will have lost everything they were and be forgotten. Humans start a family early in their lives and their childrens can be independent within only two decades, wheras an elf needs a whole century and more. If a human does not create more of his live during that short time, his children will not have it better than he had (and I think that is something which drives humans much more foreward than anything else. How many times have I heard older people say that everything they did was done for the next generation and that they will have it "easier", "better", and so on). Elves fear change and many of them seemed to be happy with whatever they had and that is what they teach their childrens. To live with the nature and everithing as it is, don't change to much look and enjoy the world as it is. Humans only see it is hard now and my children should have a better live and be more comfortable during their live. If a human can accomplish something that makes the lives of the following generations better he even achieves a kind of immortality and it seems that is also something worthwhile for them.
The current age of exploration (from 1000 DR till present) have seen the humans migrate all over Fearun and have intermingled the disparite tribes into much more vibrant and bigger racial groups. The Imaskari helped that even more by collecting humans from around the multiverse with their extradimensional magic, facilitating even more diversity in the human gene pool. The sheer diversity of the human cultures that roam all the regions of fearun (and their different needs and wants) has made trade between the different human communities amongst important driving gear for embetterment. Trade routes by themselves have worked as katalysts for civilisation, attracting not only humans, but races such as elves, halflings, gnomes and dwarves with an interest in trade or human commodities. The multiracial cities such as Waterdeep and Ravens Bluff are prove that the bustling industrialism of humans can be catapulted to even grater heights when the humans accept the other races into their cities.
I think humanities rise is partly a ploy of the gods that have arisen since the Age of Humanity (-3000 DR to 1000 DR). By empowering the right human servants the gods have been aiding the rise of humans ever since the decline set in in demi-human societies. The fall of the dwarven kingdoms and the later elven retreat gave way to large swaths of mountains and forests being ripe for settlement by humans. The early westfeaunian gods [Aumanator, Kozah/Talos, Selune, Shar, Targus/Tempus, Tyche, Jergal, Jannath/Chauntea] have kept human tribes in favorable light because of the utter devotion humans tribes can show towards them. If a godly immortal needs a quick boost in power, human worship is the most likely the tool that can achieve the results they want.
Tiamat and Bahamut are some of the best examples for that. The dragons almost abandoned worshipping their gods and later they lost the supremacy over Toril. But since Tiamat and Bahamut took humans as new source for power they "survived" as gods whereas the others of the dragon pantheon seemed to be forgotten.
Now with some of the "revelations" of the 4th edition some of the others fitted into this scheme also, like Gruumsh and Sehanine.
The story of mankind is linked to its gods in profound ways, as clergies usually are there to support the foundations of civilisation. Humanities growth away from the more primal ages can propably be coincided with the rise of the human kingdoms supported by Mystryl, Aumanator, Selune, Shar or Chauntea. They propably allowed for miracles that swayed large tribes to their worship, such as resurrection and the tales of afterlife. This allowed the humans to not fear death so much and actually face up to the threats monsters in Toril pose. Those who embraced arcane magic catapulted their civilisations even further.
The human ambition in the arcane arts can lead to folly aswell, so its not that humans continually dominated Toril, their failures remain and dot Torils landscape aswell. The arcane human empires of old got humans the means to spread further and conquer larger swaths of lands than ever before. Netherese are an example of a tribe that grew so effectively large they had the means to wander and settle fearuns corners at whim. Their remains can be found from the cold north to the sweltering south.
Now this could lead to many responses, a couple of which might be:
1) Attempt to check that expansionism. In my opinion any half intelligent species will see this as suicide, especially if they are a slow to mature race (comparably) such as the Elves. In a long running war, without a decisive mechanical or magical advantage it is going to be down to numbers... and who can produce the largest numbers most easily? Humans. Enlightened self-interest would suggest not getting into a butt-kicking contest you know you can't win.
2) Guiding or acting as a Warden to the Human races. Also likely impossible, Human kingdoms tend to have even more fractured relationships with each others than the Elves (and they had the Crown Wars for Mystra's sake!). You can't herd cats, as the saying goes, and humans tend to have very feline egos.
3) Full scale integration. Also enlightened self-interest. Based around "If you can't beat them, join them". Any race may see their survival prospects infinitely improved by allying themselves with human realms (if they pick the right ones) not least for the reasons outlined in #1. On the other hand this may raise questions about preservation of culture, history and racial bloodlines.
4) Seclusion. Find the bits of the world they haven't occupied yet and enjoy life until they find you. It didn't work for Evermeet, I am not sure it would work anywhere else either.
There are certainly others but they haven't occurred to me yet :D .
So it might be, considering a mix of #3 and #4 that the proliferation of the Humans may not be entirely their own work since they do not, after all, exist entirely on their own... that's just what they would want us to believe ;).
I agree about human individualism. Although this is somewhat odd when you look at Elves, whose culture seems to strongly focus on individual expression and such... and yet at the same time, they also seem strongly tied to tradition and the past. They also likely have stronger family ties precisely because they live longer, which likely aids them in their clan / family centered thinking.
Humans also seem to demonstrate a type of tribalism, but it is more channeled into nationalism / organizational affiliation and to a lesser extent family. This is both a good and bad thing: it leads to intra-species xenophobia (my nation is superior to your nation), which can in turn lead to wars and other conflict among the species.
The reverse seems to be true in the longer lived races, especially dwarves.
I also agree (and it seems Leiril was trying to make the same point), that the longer lived races are more likely to fear death.
However....
Leiril-
I don't think my point was clear when I spoke about the longer lived races fear of death. I agree that they likely fear death more than humans, precisely because they are longer lived. However, they are much less likely to fear death by old age. After all they do live centuries. Since they fear death more, they are less likely to take risks, such as going to war and such. Taking risks is critical to growing and evolving, not to mention conquest.
A more risk adverse species is not likely to make the same type of gains that a species like humans will make. So long as the risk aversion is based in wise and rational decisions. Something that similar species like humans - goblins & orcs for example lack. An example of their sup-par intelligence and wisdom. An orc or a goblin is likely to take more risks than a human, but those risks are not likely to lead to the same success because they lack the minds to properly develop the right approach and plan for success.
I'd also like to touch upon your comments regarding humans:
Humans on the other hand live only some decades and if they don't change during this short period of time anything, they will have lost everything they were and be forgotten.
Humans due to their short life spans, tend to be short term thinkers. I think this is a great contrast with the Elves. Elves tend to mostly live in harmony with nature, which does ensure the success of future generations. However, humans tend to be focused on the immediate situation. In this way, they are similar to orcs and goblins, devastating the land and nature to "civilize" it for their own use (agriculture, logging, etc.)
Suin Bahhar-
I like your point about the gods. I didn't think of that, but it does seem like that is going on, with various deities falling into the "Faerûnian" Pantheon.
As for your comments regarding multi-species cultures (Waterdeep and such)... I think that's brilliant. I didn't think of that, but it actually goes further. As trade and interaction with humans increases, there will be an inevitable assimilation of cultures. This is similar to what is going on in our world with globalization.
What will happen when the elves, for example, begin to lose their native culture and become fully assimilated into human culture? Will their species eventually die out? Will there be a backlash, such as in our world with globalization? Is it possible that organizations such as the Eldreth Veluuthra are a response to the threat posed to elven cultural "purity"?
Iluvrien-
I agree, having read your post now, I think we are thinking along similar lines. See my response to Suin Bahhar above.
That is what in the end matters.
This is a topic that really helps me appreciate the realms as the bustling living world it is. The interplay of the old races cultures and how they have coped with new human driven cultural revolutions have always interested me. The Realms have given me the facade of realism in this regard with lots of examples of fantasticly desgined cities.
Raven's Bluff is intersting because it was build upon the ruins of Sarbreen, a dwarven surface fortress which was raised to secure a position to cattle the little herds the dwarves needed. The dwarves had started following ore viens into the orc infested parts east of the dragonreach innersea. They managed to topple the orc warlord Ologh by calculated dwarven cunning. Dwarven mines were secretly expanding, making sure no orcs survived their discovery and systemetically culling orc numbers. After a few years the orcs dwindling numbers started to be noticed by rivals of Ologh amongst the many tribes, and civil war made them cull eachothers numbers even more.
The dwarves took the orcs nearly by surprize when thy started surfacing in force. Ologh was removed and the lands around Sarbreen we're secured for the limited use the dwarves made of it. This period (around 600 DR) the first bold humans started settling the stabilized regions. Men travelled in small groups but we're well armed and some wielded powerfull magic. Sarbreen was toppled not long after the short respite in the numbers of orcs, as they new generation of orcs formed a subterranean horde that swarmed the dwarves from their mines.
The few surviving humans we're swiftly reinforced by more settlers from the West, and the struggle for survival against the orc hordes was taken over from the dwarves. Here the human birthrate, the tenaciousness of the first settlers, and the high amount of daredevil adventurers (the period is known as the Time of Glorious Fools) amongst the humans managed to succeed to hold of the orc hordes. Soon the farmers and settlers became rich, and the ports Calaunt, Tantrass and Raven's Bluff / Sarbreen on the coastilne become popular tradestops for ships from Cormyr, Sembia and Cimbar.
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Its obvious humans owe the demihuman races a lot. Thanks to the rise of elves and dwarves the worst of the monstrous races are less of a threat they could have been. Humans have a knack to forget where they build apon, and the very soil they till can uncover relics of ancient times past when they we're in far less favorable shape as a race. Powerfull enchantments laid by elves such as mythals keep the some of the most prosperous human dominated cities defensive. Great drwavenbuilt stoneslabbed gates keep the dire threats from the underdark from spilling unto the surface.
As a race, humans are just as strong as orcs, just as hardy as dwarves, just as quick as halflings, just as wise as elves, just as smart as sun elves, and just as charismatic as half-elves.
That +2 to any stat means that humans can have just the right person for any job, whereas other races are pigeon-holed in two, maybe three things.
Think of the Eladrin as Melniboneans who aren't near as far gone. Advanced, but no longer a dynamic growing race. Or perhaps the Shadows and Vorlons of Babylon 5 -- again very advanced, but not growing or changing. They had their day but barring a great leader who re-ignites their spirit to make them reach for the stars (or some horrible catastrophe) there is nothing at their core to force them to change or progress. In a couple of thousand years, maybe humans will look like that and the Kobolds will look like the up and comers
Frankly it makes you wonder how plausible the Warhammer 40K universe is. would the Elves really ever try to build spaceships?
What will happen when the elves, for example, begin to lose their native culture and become fully assimilated into human culture? Will their species eventually die out? Will there be a backlash, such as in our world with globalization? Is it possible that organizations such as the Eldreth Veluuthra are a response to the threat posed to elven cultural "purity"?
This got me thinking. In this case about Evermeet. What if Evermeet wasn't shifted to the Feywild by the spellplague but was shifted because of it. After the depredations of Kymil Nimesin I do wonder if Amlaruil (and other associated High Mages) didn't start consider a fallback plan... or perhaps even if they didn't. What if, in the moments before the 'plague impinged upon the Island, Amlaruil and others worked to move the entire kingdom out of harm's way. It had been done before, Faerun had been rent asunder to create Evermeet, why not ensure its safety when Faerun was already being rent again? A true bastion against the considerably less planar aligned races and an abiding centre of "Elven Purity" as Meldread calls it above.
In doing so she could have spent her own life, the life of other High Mages and other bonded Elves... thus fitting in with the descriptions in the FRCG. What do people think?
That +2 to any stat means that humans can have just the right person for any job, whereas other races are pigeon-holed in two, maybe three things.
That really just feeds into an expanded version of the adaptability point Meldread made as point #1 in the OP. And it doesn't rely on a mechanical description either. It is also good to note that while Humanity may produce a group of people who embody each of these traits no one embodies them all. Humans are not better. In fact the case may be made that it is only in aping the other races that humans come close to their level of usefulness.
Another thing that I would suggest is that, in my opinion, the mechanics are supposed to be a reflection of the world, not the other way around.
Does anyone here really believe that Elves are basically the same as humans, with the only difference being they have pointy ears and live longer? Even if they are the same in all ways but those two, their longer lives -must- have an impact on their politics, their society, and their culture.
I think some of the points Iluvrien, Suin Bahhar and Carbon Dragon brought up in their recent posts are rather good. I think Carbon Dragon's comparison to Rome vs the barbarians is a very good analogy when it comes to Elves vs Humans. The Elves are by virtually any measurement, far more civilized and in many ways advanced compared to humans. Yet, their culture also seems to be somewhat stagnated, while humanity's culture and society seems to be dynamic.
It doesn't make sense to think of Elves and other non-human races as human. They are and should be in some ways considered alien, and I think that's part of their allure. They are close enough to being human that we can relate to them, and yet different enough where they remain mysterious and intriguing.
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Iluvrien I think you have a good point when it comes to Evermeet. In my Realms, Evermeet was saved by the High Mages and the Elvish deities expending much of their divine power to pull it into the Feywild. However, getting to the Feywild from Toril is difficult, and this has resulted in there being a separation. The Elves were in the middle of a return to the mainland and Myth Drannor in particular. The Elves that remain on Toril feel abandoned and left behind, and this has allowed some interesting changes to take place.
Evereska was largely devastated by the Spellplague in my Realms, leaving Myth Drannor as the last great old city remaining. Due to the long lifespans of the Elves, they still remember (either because they were there or their parents or grandparents were) it being their homeland. Myth Drannor has instituted a law of return, allowing any Elf (excluding Drow) to return to Cormanthor and receive instant citizenship rights.
The obvious downside here is obviously that Myth Drannor lays directly in the middle of the Dalelands. The humans occupying those lands have been there for many human generations. They see it from the point of view: The Elves abandoned these lands a long time ago, and since that time we've claimed them.
The Elves see it from the point of view: We just left a little while ago, it's no different than if a human left his home for a month and returned to find it occupied by another family. It's still their home regardless of the fact that they were temporarily away.
The two sides are largely irreconcilable, and the tension is exploited by humans who dislike Elves, and Elvish groups such as the Eldreth Veluuthra.
This conflict in my eyes is a positive thing for the Elves, as it is forcing them to adapt and change to their new world. Even as there are groups who are more conservative, and want to keep to the old ways (especially old pledges and commitments), many Elves are recognizing that they must adapt to the new situation and reality or eventually find themselves at the mercy of humanity... which seems to constantly grow, no matter how many die, and to always expand. How long is it, they consider, before they come knocking on their door with weapons in hand?
-There aren't/weren't any TSR/WotC settings that didn't include Humans as the primary influential power, is there?
The Council of Wyrms series featured a setting and rules for playing dragons on a huge remote dragon island.
The Menzoberranzan boxed set was also an excellent and highly popular non-human focused campaign background tailored just for the Realms.
The realms has some areas where humans aren't the primary power and even in the areas they do most cities, villages and camps have enough threats around them that humans are in constant fear of infiltration or toppling especially by their own kind. Beyond that on the Swordcoast orc hordes are commonplace, The Serpant Hills are still held by those Sharruhk serving Naga's, and large swathes of land have roaming gnoll and hobgoblin bandits. Areas such as the surroundings near Evereska [Eladrin], the Rift with its mines near Deep Shanatar [Gold Dwarves], underground trading hubs such as Mantelderith near Menzoberranzan [Drow], certain parts of hilly Lantan[Gnomes] or the southern jungles of Sammarach and Thindol [Yuan-Ti] could be used to highlight a humanoid controlled region with only a splash of humans getting by in the fringes.
-There aren't/weren't any TSR/WotC settings that didn't include Humans as the primary influential power, is there?
On Athas, 'normal' humans weren't dominant, the Dragon Kings were (which were humans that used epic magic to transform themselves into Dragons over ten levels... making them sort-of 'half-dragons' for those levels).
I think D&D designers can't get away from Dragons... they leak into everything. It could just be the name of the game, though. ;)
Anyhow, 'half' races, like Muls (Half-Dwarves) and Half-Giants were the 'thing' in that setting, even though normal humans existed, the halfs were the driving factor in that setting (if I'm not mistaken... I'm certainly NO expert).
I had thought about a setting wherein Elves became dominant, and humans were hunted like animals (I know... that sounds like something I would come-up with :rolleyes
. Then the Orcs would become a sort-of 'woodland protector', hiding the humans in caves and undeground to keep the Elves from hunting them to extinction (making the Orcs like Druids, and humans even more like animals).It would be similar to the way things worked in Planet of the Apes (the original), except that the 'Gorillas' (Orcs) are the good guys.
That was actually an out-growth of my reading The Saga of the Pliocene Exile, which was a phenomenal series of books. Humans from the future are exiled into the distant past (pliocene Earth), only to find it controlled by Fey-like aliens who treat humans as fodder.
So, put that together with a little PotA (mentioned earlier), and you got the makings of a survival-based setting. Other races, like Dwarves, would be indifferent toward the humans plight (rather then anger the uber-powerful Elven Imperium). I'm thinking the Elves would have wiped-out any other race that threatened their dominance (for instance, the last of the giants went into hiding and haven't been seen in ages).
I thought it was a cool concept, but its a bot too 'niche' to ever be mainstream.
Just look at the elves and the views expressed of them here. They're old and decadent, who's future is pretty much decided when they're finally absorbed into human culture. Why though? My own feeling is that they're just too long lived and we have to assign them a grave disadvantage, otherwise they're too overwhelming and can't be coped with. There's just no real reason why we could displace them at the top of the food chain if they didn't have some disadvantage to use, comparatively. My own feeling is that its a holdover from Tolkien's worldview of man inheiriting the world, as promised in the Bible... he was a pretty damned religious sod, and a lot of those ideas crept into his works, although they were fairly well hidden in a lot of respects... but that's a whole other debate I don't really feel like getting into again anytime soon.
My own feeling is that we shouldn't be on top of the food chain in most fantasy settings I guess, just another race struggling to keep Evil Afoot at bay.
Another solution to the problem is the rather un-unifyed structure of the human race on Fearun. The humans are devided, so much so they are wont to not even understand eachothers speech and religions. They are devided by age, an elder usually frowns apon the notions and speech of a youngster. They can be devided by geographic barriers and the political plays the nobles instigate. A bordering nation can easily fall into the enemy camp if the current ruling castes have opposing views. This can oftentimes lead to interspecies war. Longlived races seem to have far less problems of these kind, largely because their stronger traditions ingrained into their racial cultures dont allow for so much variation as the humans show.
Perhaps by showing elven and dwarven civil conflict a bit more the long lived races threat levels could be tempered to a more "realistic" level. These wars are traditionally depicted with the drow-elf and duergar-dwarf conflicts, but these seem to have become as undynamic as their races. By increasing the animosity between elven nations amongst eachother, upplaying the greedy conflicts beween dwarf clan houses and underlining the devided camps amongst humans the dominance of the particular race can be adjusted to more understandable levels.
They'd reproduce at a more human-ish rate, with a maximum lifespan of 100-150 years.
However, I decided against it. It would be tantamount to genocide of the entire species, because I am not sure how many would be left... though I am certain many thousands would rapidly die of old age.
Although, I still haven't ruled out there being any repercussions to the Elven race as a result of the Spellplague. Perhaps their children will not live as long. This could create interesting social and political consequences.
Something I notice regarding humanity is the fact that humans have a tendency to forget their past and their history. The old saying, "History always repeats itself." Exists for that reason. Elves (and other long lived races) definitely seem to have a strong sense of history, and a firm understanding of their mistakes and ways to try and avoid them in the future.
That would change if their species' lifespan was reduced.
As to a generational gap in Faerun, I doubt it would be as prominent as it is in modern society, and put its inclusion down to modern sensibilities not meshing well with what we know of the way people behave. A lot of that gap is created by a rapidly changing world, with older folks not adapting as quickly or as well as they did when they were younger, coupled with an extended lifespan due to improving geriatric care. If the world isn't changing as rapidly, the gap isn't as pronounced, because much of what the older generations know still remains valid and applicable. My own view is that their society has also had time to adapt to increased lifespans (comparative to our own society, which hasn't really had time to absorb the full impact of increased life expectancies), so fewer social tensions are created because of it. My own take on it anyway.
I see what you are saying, but the Realms is not static. I wouldn't compare it's rate of change to our (real world) pace of change, but when you live for centuries things do tend to change rather dramatically. At least from a human perspective.
If we go back in time, before technology really sped up the rate of change in our world, things still changed rather rapidly. Politics didn't move as fast as it does today (with the 24 hour news cycle and the internet), but rather over the course of years, but from the perspective of an elf... what is a year? It's nothing. It's barely a drop in the bucket.
So, when I try an imagine an elf, I imagine their minds are somewhat adapted to thinking differently than a human. Sure, some of it is cultural, but at least a part of it also has to be genetic.
Just imagine being dropped back in the 16th Century. Here are just a few of the things you would have been witness too in just ten years, a fraction of an Elven lifespan:
- The "discovery" of Brazil.
- The Second Battle of Lepanto.
- Michelangelo's statue "David."
- The Safavid dynasty of Iran adopting the Shia branch of Islam.
- The birth of Nostradamus.
- The painting of the Mona Lisa by Leonardo da Vinci.
- The Battle of Cerignola, the first battle in history won by gunpowder small arms.
- A massive famine sweeping all of Spain.
- Two thousand converted Jews massacred in a Lisbon riot.
- The death of Christopher Columbus.
- The invasion of Poland by the Tatars.
- The first recorded epidemic of smallpox in the New World, which decimates the native Taino population of Hispaniola.
- The Battle of Diu, marking the beginning of Portuguese dominance of the Spice trade.
- A plague that sweeps across various parts of Tudor England.
This is just what takes place in the first TEN YEARS of the the 16th Century (1500-1510).
Those are all major events that have cultural, military, political and social ramifications.
Just a few years later, Copernicus writes Commentariolus, and moves the sun to the center of the solar system. A few years after that Machiavelli writes The Prince, and before the end of the second decade of the 16th Century, Martin Luther has begun the Protestant Reformation.
All of that, is just a small taste of the events that unfolded at the very beginning of the 16th Century. How does an elf, who evolved to have a long lifespan, adapt to these rapid changes that take place in human culture and society?
In the end, all species are competing for the use of the same land and resources. Elves are in competition with humans, along with goblins, orcs, dwarves, and other races both primitive and advanced. Even wild animals are fighting for the use of the land. There are going to be winners and losers. What is there in the Elven species that gives them the advantage they need to fight back against the obvious human expansion and dominance?
As to the elven species having any advantages, I'd just as easily ask what makes you think humans would have an easy time of that expansion or dominance without author fiat coming into play. What is it about humanity that gives them a clear path towards that dominance or expansion beyond out-breeding everyone around them? The rules stack the deck in their favor in a lot of respects, given them unmatched flexibility, but I'd argue that doing so is largely vanity on our parts, because we have no real idea how adaptable or flexible we truly are because we've never faced actual serious competition from another intelligent species.
We presume that we'll overtake other species because we're capable of rapidly assimilating ideas and technologies from each other, which I'd contend was largely an idea promoted by European dominance over pretty much every culture they came across, even considerably older ones like those found in Asia... but really, we have no way of actually knowing one way or another. And that's largely my biggest problem with the assumption that we'd be able to dominate all those other species... since its essentially an analogy for European (and now American) dominance over every other culture out there.
All that may be true from a real world perspective, but you're acting as if this is speculation. We're talking about the Forgotten Realms, not the real world - or what it would be like if we (in reality) *ACTUALLY* had to face other intelligent species. I'm more than willing to concede that in the real world things likely aren't going to turn out the way they have in the Realms.
However, when it comes to the Realms, it cannot be denied that humanity has more-or-less dominated and / or conquered most of the known world. Humans even seem to have the unique ability to breed with other non-human species (you don't find many Half-Elven Dwarves, for example.)
The point here is to try and put things in a in-lore perspective. Why have humans been so successful compared to the other species? I'd submit that humanities ability to out breed some of the other races is a factor, but goblins and orcs can out breed humans. So that cannot be the only factor.
Yes, I know all the out of character reasons the Realms is the way it is... I don't disagree with any of them. However, in order for things to make sense there must be an explanation behind it. If someone were to turn the sky of the Realms yellow with purple poka-dots there would need to be a reason behind that as well, even if the out of character / game reason is that the DM / author / designer happened to like the colors and pattern.
As to the point, and looking for an explanation, in terms of canon, from what I recall it boils down to war exhaustion and opportunism. The dominant race gets embroiled in long and costly wars with the monsters, the future dominant species has a chance to thrive while the current dominant species gets meatgrindered, rinse and repeat. I recall reading somewhere that the gnomes and halflings are firmly convinced that their turn is next, and that it will be taken jointly, and they're just waiting for their chance to do things right once the biggun's have finally finished making their messes.
I prefer that take myself.
:coolcthul
And just so you know, I'm not particularly fond of aberrations...
I'd much rather see the lands of Faerun come under the rule of the galeb duhr...
However, when it comes to the Realms, it cannot be denied that humanity has more-or-less dominated and / or conquered most of the known world. Humans even seem to have the unique ability to breed with other non-human species (you don't find many Half-Elven Dwarves, for example.)
-Only in the past few couple of thousands of years, after other races, such as the Elves, purposely began retreating from the concept of them being 'Stewards of Abeir-Toril'. Before Humans were the most dominant race on Abeir-Toril, Elves were. And, before the Elves, there were the Dragons. And, before the Dragons, the various Creator Races. The planet being mostly 'humanocentric' is a fairly recent trend, looking at the world from earliest recorded mentions to whichever present you want to use.
-Could Humans have made the world a unipolar system (a world with one 'superpower') is the Elves hadn't purposely chosen, for various reasons over the course of time, to 'retreat' from Faerûnian politics? This is arguable. It is likely, given that the Elves were the 'established' race, while Humans were the upstarts, that the Humans would not have been able to supplant them though their own volition. Likewise, when the Elves were the upstarts, and the Dragons were the 'established' race, the Elves weren't able to defeat and supplant the Dragons on their own volition- certain Elves were hunted (Avariel), and most chose to either hide, or become vassals of the Dragons. It was only through luck, and coincidence (and love) that the Elves were able to discover a means to overthrow the Dragon overlords who ruled the supercontinent.
You bring up some interesting points. You know far more about the Elves than me, so I'm going to pose this question: Why did the Elves choose to retreat? I think I know at least one reason, but I'm interested in knowing the full picture.
Now, some other stuff...
The Creator Races: They existed during the Days of Thunder, and the main dominating force at that time seems to have been the Sarrukh. It is clear from what we know that they had internal problems, but the killing blow to their dominance was some horrific catastrophe. It brought about massive climate change, which also brought an end to the batrachi seemingly only other main contender for top dog at the time.
Dragons and Giants: Their time was during the Dawn Ages. During this time is when the first elves begin to immigrate to Toril. The Elves end the Dawn Ages with the Dracorage mythal.
Elves: After the Elves created the first Rage of the Dragons, they became the ascendant species during the First Flowering. This is when they were at their peak, and they truly ruled Toril undisputedly. The First Flowering was then brought to an end by the Crown Wars, which gave rise to the Drow.
Now the next major age is when humanity starts to become ascendant, which was known as the Founding Time. It lasted between -9000 DR to -3000 DR. According to GHotR: "This era signals the rise of all the humanoid civilizations, in a time when the many dragons and giants were long overthrown and the elf wars no longer loomed over everyone as a threat. The elf realms of Evereska and Evermeet grow by colonization along with other realms, from the human Unther and Coramshan to the dwarf realms of High Shanatar and Oghrann."
Finally, the Age of Humanity begins and lasts from -3000 DR to 1000 DR, leading right into the Present Age, and onward into the Fourth Edition of Forgotten Realms.
The Age of Humanity begins as thus, as stated by GHotR: "With the elf and dwarf empires in decline, this era marks a dramatic increase in human expansion on Toril. The mighty human empires of Calimshan, Mulhorand, and Unther arise during this era, as well as the now lost empires of Netheril, Jhaamdath, Narfell, and Raumauthar."
So what does this all tell us? First of all, it tells me that fertility definitely plays a role as well as major catastrophic events. The Elves breed much faster than dragons, and due to their larger numbers as well as magical ingenuity were able to overthrow the dragons. The Elves have had the longest reign so far, lasting for roughly 15000 years arguably longer. However, depending on how one wants to read into events, it seems as if Humanity as a whole began to push the Elves out of their dominant position. They possessed the key traits that allowed the Elves to overcome the reign of dragons, and while facing the human threat the Elves were also infighting and causing all sorts of catastrophes such as the Sundering.
So what does this all tell us? First of all, it tells me that fertility definitely plays a role as well as major catastrophic events. The Elves breed much faster than dragons, and due to their larger numbers as well as magical ingenuity were able to overthrow the dragons. The Elves have had the longest reign so far, lasting for roughly 15000 years arguably longer. However, depending on how one wants to read into events, it seems as if Humanity as a whole began to push the Elves out of their dominant position. They possessed the key traits that allowed the Elves to overcome the reign of dragons, and while facing the human threat the Elves were also infighting and causing all sorts of catastrophes such as the Sundering.
Fertility is definitely one of, if not the, greatest factors in mankind's success. I'm pretty sure I recall elves in the novels mentioning that humans breed like rats, and that because humans are so shortlived, their memories are dull when it comes to failure, but keen when it comes to recalling past wrongs and the dreams and accomplishments of their predecessors. These same elves accept that as one of the reasons why their presence is diminishing.
Lord Karsus-
You bring up some interesting points. You know far more about the Elves than me, so I'm going to pose this question: Why did the Elves choose to retreat? I think I know at least one reason, but I'm interested in knowing the full picture.
-Multiple reasons. First, it's important to keep in mind that the race had the "Tolkien vibe" going, with the concepts of "retreating to the west" already built in when we got the setting, and being a people whose heyday was in the past, not the present. Anyway, the exodus to Evermeet technically began in in -24,000 DR, when the Sundering occurred. In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow allude to the fact that, one day in the future, Evermeet will be a pivotal place for Elvendom, and that it would become one of their only safe havens. In -9,800 DR, Rolim Durothil and his expedition from Aryvandaar first discovered and began settling Evermeet. Since that point on, emigration to Evermeet fluctuated in waves, with certain times seeing more Elves traveling, and other times seeing less Elves traveling. Elven involvement in politics realistically ended with the Fall of Myth Drannor, but even then, the age of the large Elven Empires ruling large swaths of the continent had ended long before that. When Myth Drannor fell, that signaled the last hurrah, so to speak, of Elven involvement in politics, and signaled the start of the Elven Retreat to Evermeet en masse. Realistically, however, Elven involvement in politics, and control of things in Elven hands around -4,000 DR or so, when Human nations like Coramshan and Imaskar began rising, and the large Elven empires of the time (Siluvanede, Eaerlann, etc., the "Second Age of Elven Empires").
When Myth Drannor fell, that signaled the last hurrah, so to speak, of Elven involvement in politics, and signaled the start of the Elven Retreat to Evermeet en masse.
What, then, may I ask, is your take on the restoration and rise of Myth Drannor? Besides "Author/Designer Caprice"?:P
What, then, may I ask, is your take on the restoration and rise of Myth Drannor? Besides "Author/Designer Caprice"?:P
-I'm fairly ambivalent on it. I didn't particularly like the concept of an Elven Crusade when the books first came out, but it's grown on me, mainly because I think it's important to remember that it wasn't a crusade to recapture :the holy land" (Myth Drannor), but started out as a force to route the Fey'ri, that happened to succeed and occupy their base of operations (both Myth Glauroch and Myth Drannor). I don't like a lot of the details that have come forth since, but I have no problems with it circa early 1,374 DR, or so, where it's still more or less a military site, with a military/provisional government. My main dislike of it, in 1,479 DR is that the Tree of Souls was planted there, as opposed to Auseriel, and that it's "politics as usual", as opposed to a somewhat isolated Elven state, as I'd prefer it.
In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow allude to the fact that, one day in the future, Evermeet will be a pivotal place for Elvendom, and that it would become one of their only safe havens.
Why is that? What do you speculate, if not because of humanity?
Realistically, however, Elven involvement in politics, and control of things in Elven hands around -4,000 DR or so, when Human nations like Coramshan and Imaskar began rising, and the large Elven empires of the time (Siluvanede, Eaerlann, etc., the "Second Age of Elven Empires").
Doesn't this prove my point?
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I also want to talk about the restoration and rise of Myth Drannor. I'm ignoring cannon in my Realms, because like you I hated the idea at first, but eventually the concept grew on me. So, let me talk about my Realms.
Before the Spellplague hit, only a moderate-to-small first wave had resettled Myth Drannor, and if you gathered up every elf within the region you'd find several thousand. Most were military who were there to secure the region for the Return, with only a handful of settlers.
After the Spellplague hit, Evermeet was placed in serious danger. Most of the wards and protections placed on the island were fading, or outright destroyed. The Spellplague had touched a few small parts of the island with devastating results, and it appeared as if it could spread to the entire island - perhaps killing or mutating them all. The portals linking them back with the Mainland no longer functioned... there was no real escape. The large bulk of Elvenkind were isolated sitting ducks forced to go face to face with something that they could not fight.
The gods - all of them - because they had used the Weave to communicate with their faithful, as well as send spells to their clerics had gone silent the instant the Spellplague hit. That is not to say that the gods could not interact with the world, it's just that they'd have to expend vast amounts of their own divine energies to do so. When the Elven Gods saw what was taking place on Evermeet, they were forced into action. They expended vast amounts of their divine energy, staggering amounts, to physically pull the island into the Feywild - all in an effort to save as many Elves as they possibly could.
They were successful, but it came at a price: many of the Seldarine were greatly diminished in power. In truth, only Corellon Larethian was able to maintain any sort of connection with Toril. Most deities were blocked by Ao from trying to communicate with the small handful of faithful left behind, because they had insufficient worshipers left in Realmspace.
Now, what do you think would happen to those Elves left behind? They look around the world and see it ravaged. It is a human deity, Mystra and the destruction of her Weave that is to blame. Their gods have gone silent. They aren't sure if their gods are dead, have abandoned them, or simply decided they didn't care. Then imagine what they must have felt when they eventually learned, years later, after the Spellplague had ravaged Everreska, after they looked out across the world and realized that only Myth Drannor was safe... imagine what they must have felt to learn that Evermeet was simply gone. There was no place to retreat to any longer. There was no where to run or hide, and the last bastion of their entire species was surrounded by humanity on all sides.
Getting to the Feywild to rejoin the other Elves simply was not realistic: getting to the Feywild was hard when the Weave was around, but magic has diminished greatly and become much more dangerous. (In my Realms, at least.) It is all but impossible now, unless you are very powerful, and even then it's unrealistic to take all the Elves that remain with you.
I try and imagine what it must feel like for an Elf. To look around you and realize that you're basically left all alone. To actually realize for the first time, perhaps ever, that your species is truly facing extinction... that doom is literally looming above your head. I try and imagine what it must feel like to look through their eyes, to look around the world and to literally see humans everywhere. Sure, humanity was dealt a great blow by the Spellplague - millions died or worse - but it's clear that they'll recover. That in a few hundred years or so - perhaps five hundred at most - they'll be even stronger than they were before... I try to imagine what it feels like surrounded like that, knowing that in essence, your species' final destiny on this world is essentially written. It doesn't matter where you go, where you turn, how far you run... it doesn't matter if you isolate yourself... the truth follows you, and wherever you look you see them: humanity.
I try and imagine what it is like for an Elf to have lived through the Spellplague and to give birth to a child. To know that their child will never know the wonders of their people, to never know the great achievements of their people, and that they are being born into a world that no longer has a place for them.
In my mind, I see the Elves as feeling claustrophobic, as if the walls are literally closing in around them. I see Elves who feel abandoned and left behind, and I see Elves who look out across the vastness of Toril and are filled with jealousy and sadness. They look into the eyes of humanity, and they see what they once were - they see greatness... and it reminds them of all that they've lost.
In my Realms, Myth Drannor has been established as the last bastion of Elven kind. A sort of last stand, an effort to preserve their species on the world. They've established a law: Any Elf who seeks asylum may find it in Myth Drannor... and they come from all corners of Toril when they hear of it... to live among their own people. To feel a little less trapped, a little less claustrophobic... all clinging to a small but fading hope that they might in some way reclaim a small fraction of what they've lost. Just a tiny fraction of it.
As a result of this, Myth Drannor has swollen to just over a million elves within the city and surrounding localities. Not all Elves have come, of course, some have given up hope. They live among the humans, essentially surrendering to the cold truth: their time is over. There is no point in fighting it, they reason, only to live out the remainder of their lives the best way they know how.
This is how certain heresies have developed, the Elves in Silverymoon, for example, believe that Selune and Sehanine Moonbow are not really all that different... that perhaps they are the same, and thus they worship Selune because Sehanine no longer answers their prayers, but Selune is more than happy to listen. The Church of Selune in Silverymoon welcomes them openly, and makes them feel at home as best they can. Yet, in the end, the Elf due to their long lifespan will see every last human they are surrounded by die. They will witness the birth of the children of their friends, the births of their friends children's children, and all of their deaths - for many generations.
I try to imagine what that is like through the eyes of an Elf. To know that your long life has essentially become more of a curse than a blessing: to know that everyone you know and care about is going to die and leave you behind. I envision some of these Elves, at least, taking human partners and having children with them... half-elves... they will witness the death of them all. Elves supposedly feel emotion deeper than humans, right? They say the worst thing that can happen to a human is to have to bury a child, why would it not be equally worse (if not more) for an elf?
From the moment their half-elven child is born it has to linger in the back of their minds: I am going to see this child I love die. I am going to see this child I love grow old, and it is going to be taken from me by the cruel hands of time... and yet, I will still be young. I will live for hundreds of more years, and I will see my children's children, their children - my great grand children... all of them I will love and then watch die. Again. And again. And again. For generation, after generation... and still, I will be young, with hundreds of more years ahead of me.
I can imagine some Elves that choose to live among humanity, apart from their own kind, making a pact with those that they love - husband or wife... that they will eventually take their own lives, to avoid such a fate. That when the children are grown and safe, and their partners dead and gone... they will take their own life and join them on the other side.
Meanwhile, some of those Elves may not do that, but instead live on and view themselves as guardians of their families... their half-human families. They will pass on to the memories of their children, great grand children, and great great grand children, and share them with future generations.
I think it is easy to imagine why Myth Drannor is such an attractive place for the Elven species. I then try to imagine the mindset of the Elves of Myth Drannor. What it must feel like to know that they are the last hurrah for their species on the entire world. That if their little experiment fails then their species is doomed - no more retreating or running. They will either fight or they will die.
I imagine that the differences between the various ethnic groups of elves becomes much less of an issue. They are all in the same boat, and they are either going to sink or paddle it to shore together.
I then try and imagine what the humans in the surrounding region must feel like... all those Elves... looking longingly at their lands. The humans have lived through countless border conflicts, it is part of their culture. It is true that humans and elves in that region have long had a strong friendship... but that was then... that was before the Spellplague, before the greater portion of the species simply vanished from the face of Toril.
Then there are the Sembians, who are prejudiced against the Elves. In my Realms, Netheril is no more, and Sembia is under the rule of Cormyr. Yet, many Sembian's (who also dislike Cormyr) became refugees and fled to the Dalelands rather than live under Cormyrian occupation. When the Elves began to show up in such large numbers, I just try and imagine what it was like from the eyes of a Sembian... it must have been like pulling off a scab. Those old racial hatreds and superstitions likely flared up, and over the course of several human generations - one hundred years later - they are likely deeply ingrained all over again.
So then... we have a situation. We have humans that look at the growth of Myth Drannor, who see its power, and while most of them do not know the history of Elven and Human relations in the region (a side effect of short lives), they know that the Elves are not going to be content with their small little kingdom forever.
For the Elves of Myth Drannor, they look out across the Dales and they see Cormanthor. They see their ancient homeland, they see humans who live upon it... they see their final stand. They are trapped, with no where left to run... nothing left to lose...
And I see groups such as the Eldreth Veluuthra easily preying upon the fears of the Elves of Myth Drannor... turning them against humanity. Getting them to blame humanity for all that the Elvish people have lost. After all, was it not the human gods who were responsible for the Spellplague? Is it not humans that occupy their land, and that are a threat to the very survival of the Elven species?
I can envision an Elven Wizard, studying diseased humans, and plotting... He doesn't want to hurt humans, not really... but... he is forced to make a choice. Humans or Elves. His people or theirs. A choice had to be made... must be made...
He studies those sick humans in hopes of discovering a disease that he can magically alter... a disease that will only infect humans. That will kill scores of them, perhaps thousands... perhaps millions... at the very least, just those in the Dalelands so that the Elven people can reclaim their ancestral lands.
I can just imagine all the different ways an Elf could justify killing humans. From thinking of them as little more than pink-fleshed Orcs, and looking at how they ravage the land as they spread... to rationalizing the fact that they live short lives, and thus cutting them short is not really all that big of a deal... to rationalizing the fact that humans breed so quickly that killing a million or so is just a drop in the bucket, and not really going to make that big of a difference overall. Yet, in the end, there is the easiest justification of all: They are not one of us. It is either us or them. I choose them.
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After typing all of the above, I wonder if that is an accurate way to view the situation of the Elves of Myth Drannor and Elves as a whole on Toril after the Spellplague. I wonder if an Elven mind would think in the terms I outlined above? After all, Elves are not human... so it is hard to truly understand how they'd think or react to their circumstances.
For me I like how I envision the Elves of my Realms. I like what I have done to Myth Drannor. They are tragic, and on many levels you can sympathize with them... even understand why they feel the way that they do. It makes for great stories. They can be used as sympathetic villains. ..and really, if you fight them, if the humans crushed Myth Drannor... then how can it be justified: They just committed an act of genocide. They have wiped out the last hope of the Elven species. With a single stroke, they have washed away thousands upon thousands of years of Elven history and involvement on Toril.
In the end... who is the real enemy?
I still see this largely applies to the eladrin viewpoint. The sylvan elves won't worry that much about Evermeet's disappearance or the retaking of large empires. They'll be content living as barbarians, with little else than what the land provides them, and hunting down any tresspassers in their chosen forests as usual.
Some good points you make for seeing the eladrin mindset as different, but you skip over a few key components of the elven lifestyle and thinking. The emotion of an elf CAN dictate their actions in the now, but they still retain their extremely patient and analytical minds. Most actions are well weighed for their consequences in the future. Combine such extremes and you see that elven life is meticulously planned but tempered by the dramatic events
in their life.
Eladrin politics will respond to action to certain events but seem very flighty when compared to human politics. Emotions and the long term prophesies of their seers and high mages rule the decisions. The emotions of a single elf can very easily be shared amongst a larger group through joined reverie and the like. A single tragic event in an elven community can resonate for years amongst the kin and their close ones. So the death of a single well loved hero can shape the eladrin at large into crusade like mentality.
The more analytical part of the eladrin mind governs the long term view. This part can be eerily patient, and very pragmatic and cold in its decisions. What better way that to beat your foes by watching from a safe distance untill they doom themselves by their follies? If you go to war with another race, why hold back on the use of the most powerful yet unstable weapon on Toril, high magic? If Evermeet is so important to the Seldarine and the elven race in the coming future why should the elves even care for Toril even more when it went to the Feywild. All these initial emotions have been tempered by the prohesies of the Seldarine and divintations of high mages that see the elven fate unfold over the next few millenia or so.
What these prophesies entail is a debate still going strong amongst the elves that remain on Fearun. That the elves will unite in the greatest realm the elves can imagine? That they will outlive their peers through isolation? Some might have seen into the future and seen their ultimate destruction. Others seen assimilation into the larger whole...
The future is in their hands this time.
Great stuff Lord Karsus, thanks. That cleared some things up in my mind. I understand that they had the whole "Tolkien vibe" thing going on from the very first time we saw the setting, but when put into context of Elven history as a whole, doesn't it make sense?
-I meant it in a more 'predetermined' way. The history of the Elves didn't happen as it did (from a metagame point of view) because of specific other factors happening in the setting, but more because things needed to happen that way. If that makes sense.
Why is that? What do you speculate, if not because of humanity?
-The Crown Wars, possibly. The later conflicts between Elven empires. There's plenty of history happening between -24,000 DR and 1,375 DR/1,479 DR. They could have, in theory, also been alluding to the desire for Elven to live out their lives in a more esoteric way, in isolation, having nothing to do with other races, war, and all of that stuff.
Doesn't this prove my point?
-Yes and no, depending on how far back you want to trace things. Sure, it began around then, as Human nations began rising, but if you want to look further back, and the "larger picture", had the Elven empires of the latter days not folded because of conflict amongst each other, and shadowy patrons like Lolth, Wendonai, Malkizid, Ghaunadaur and others interfering with Elven life, the Human nations might not have gotten the chance to begin rising into prominence and power, or the empires that eventually fell into disuse might not have even come into being, with the latter day empires still existing.