Chance87;16567996 wrote:
-That said, this is an apt analogy. Now, while anyone can freely add whatever they want to those branches, look at how "sparse" the tree, as a whole, is.
Just playing devils advocate. I don't think that's the meaning you had in mind, but the pictures can be taken in that direction.
There is a reason you don't keep a Christmas tree up year round. It's because eventually all that pretty green stuff falls away, leaving you exactly with what you have to the right - a dead and ugly tree.
How many more RSE's could 3x have sustained before it lost the -rest- of it's creditability? How long could it have sustained itself with the constant contradictions to its own past lore? No one who is honest can look back at 3x and find a setting without flaws, many of them built up over a number of years. The same is said for 2x before it.
The worst thing that 4E did was that it failed to address the underlying flaws of the setting.
3e / 4e
I lament the loss but it's not like they changed everything in some crazy time-travel continuity retcon, re-write. The past and all the information is still valid and usable. It all still happened.
But man, I totally want a sub now.
That isn't something I would think that a group of devoted fans of the campaign setting would do to it. It seems to me like they retrofitted the setting to make it work for the vocal few who hated or at least distasted the setting in its prior form.
That doesn't sit too well for me. It seems like they built a whole new setting and had a guy with a giant labelmaker go and re-named their homebrew setting after things from the forgotten realms.
They even pretty much gave elminster a lobotomy.
Not to mention someone's hard-on for obould had apparently resulted in making him an exarch or demi-power now.
I honestly can't think of anything nice to say about the 'cool' new direction they've forced upon us and I think a more accurate comparison between 3.5e FR and 4e FR would be a beautiful oak tree compared to a cheap plastic tree duct-taped to an oak tree's rotted stump, respectively.
I am largely in agreement with Dark Wizard.
Well, here's hoping you really enjoy that dead tree on the right with no leaves, no charm, no light, and no spirit. Because it's what we've got left.
Alternatively:
3e / 4e
I lament the loss but it's not like they changed everything in some crazy time-travel continuity retcon, re-write. The past and all the information is still valid and usable. It all still happened.
But man, I totally want a sub now.
Somehow, from what you've written above, I think you might be unaware of all the continuity and flavor changes that have been generated by the changes to the Realms. Think about Angarragh's complete re-working, the 100-year time-jump (with designer-recommended time travel options for PCs), or the fact that Abeir is supposed to be a "copy of Toril", in an alternate reality. That not enough for the "crazy" label? There's far more. And quite frankly, from the retcons to date, it all didn't actually happen as we experienced the Realms.
Well, here's hoping you really enjoy that dead tree on the right with no leaves, no charm, no light, and no spirit. Because it's what we've got left.
I never said the 4E Realms was good. :P
I simply pointed out that 3E Realms had it's share of flaws as well. After all, how long does anyone really believe that 3E could have gone on with the amount of RSE's that kept taking place? Seriously, look at the setting as a whole - look at the history of Toril. It's always been a place where RSE's happened and the like, but they were spaced out - sometimes over entire centuries.
However, ever since the Time of Troubles it's just been one RSE after another, mostly for the sake of the novels. Step outside of the FR fan base and ask people what they think of the Realms, and by and large, they'll think it's a joke. All they know about the setting is that it keeps blowing up - that's real incentive to give it a shot, right?
I don't really like 90% of the 4E changes to the Realms, and really I don't even know what I am going to do. However, I am not going to begrudge WotC for trying to make the setting attractive to new players - because that is obviously what they are trying to do. Whether they will be successful or not I cannot say for certain as I am not their target audience. It is my opinion though that they failed to address some of the most critical underlying issues.
I guess you can compare it to putting cancer in remission. WotC may have put the "cancer" that had infected the Realms into remission, but they didn't remove the tumor and over time it's just going to come back again.
And that is why 4th Ed may well be the same. It isn't the Realms that brings about RSEs it is the current stewards of the Realms.
Thought experiment: Could Wizards, had they been so inclined, dialled back the RSE train? Could they have effectively said "And for the next hundred years or so there was an era of stability, a brief respite in the tumultuous history of the Realms."
Of course they could! Adventures could be published with local or even global relevance dealing with the threats at the time, novels would be written about small bands or even the larger personalities without resorting to continuous RSEs. The timeline could have been advanced without these things and the Realms might have, over time, begun to reclaim the credibility that you claim it lost. Not least by bringing in "new management" for some of the villians and instigating a "shaping up" to at least make them leaner and meaner.
Could, in fact, most of the claimed design goals of 4th Ed been managed without the Spellplague, Timejump and returned Abeir?
Yes, they could. So let us, for heaven's sake, not confuse ourselves about what 4th Ed is.
4th Ed is the fastest way to do the above. By dropping in an edition change they have freed themselves to change what they want to in a grandiose fashion because people expect changes over an edition jump. The fact that it is changing has forced the people who abandoned the setting due to its RSE load to look back because of the edition change rather than wait for it to happen in a more viral fashion.
The material in these changes, if handled correctly, could have led to the most stunning set of campaign adventures and novels that the Realms had ever seen. But they chose not to take this route.
I mean after all, Meldread, would you have not preferred to either play or read about the rise of Shar in either well written/designed books or adventurs than just be told that it has already happened?
I don't disagree. Of course WotC has always had a choice. Like I said all the changes they made are for naught, because all the problems that existed will only manifest themselves again in the future.
However, looking at things from WotC's prospective...
1. They want to push the pulp. Selling those books are much easier when major things happen in them as they generate buzz. The exception are the books where people have a really strong connection with the character(s) being written about (Drizzt for example doesn't cause major RSE's).
2. They have already openly and publicly stated that they plan a 5th Edition of D&D. Thus it is wholly believable that if Forgotten Realms manages to make it through 4th Edition that whatever problems cropped up will be "fixed" in the same manor with the new edition.
I also look at things logically:
If you go back and look at NPC's listed from First and Second edition you'll notice that -most- of them seem to be low-to-mid levels. Even the major movers and shakers were in that range, with the more powerful NPC's (Elminster and the like) being super rare exceptions mostly for background flavor.
When you move into 3E there is a different mindset. The rules changed, allowing for easier level advancement, more magic and more power in general. The Realms moved to reflect that change. Instead of being a high magic setting, it became a magic saturated setting. Instead of being a setting of well defined heroic characters, it became a setting of vast numbers of (mostly bland and redundant) epic characters.
After all, with all the high level NPC's around what can you reasonably expect them to do that would not lead to some type of RSE? The options are rather limited in order to keep things interesting. It'd be like having an entire Drizzt Trilogy devoted to nothing but complexity, intrigue and political maneuverings. Those reading the books aren't -really- interested in that type of story, they're interested in a fantasy action adventure book.
After all, if they were writing stories about those sorts of things (local small scale stuff) they would not need NPCs so epic in nature. While it is certainly a choice on WotC's part, it's a choice made in large part based upon what they believe people will buy. If they believed more people would buy the other stuff they'd have the authors begin to write that.
I lament the loss but it's not like they changed everything in some crazy time-travel continuity retcon, re-write. The past and all the information is still valid and usable. It all still happened.
But its is essentially irrelevant
Keep what you want throw the rest out, or just ignore it. I regularly ignore the existence of everything that followed the original Highlander movie, its easier to sleep that way.
That's become my philosophy as well in regard to the Realms. Take what you like, discard the rest, completely ignore the cannon. Make the Realms your own in everyway, even going as far as creating a homebrew or another setting and importing elements you like whole cloth. (You like Cormyr but are playing in the Pathfinder setting? No problem, just port it over.)
This looks more hardcore
300>FR
Alternatively:
3e / 4e
I lament the loss but it's not like they changed everything in some crazy time-travel continuity retcon, re-write. The past and all the information is still valid and usable. It all still happened.
But man, I totally want a sub now.
-I am going to Subway this afternoon now thanks!
18DELTA :D
-I am going to Subway this afternoon now thanks!
18DELTA :D
Are you going to meet Jerid?! I use to work at subway, I got tired of old asian woman wanting discounts, so I left.
Woman: "This bread is burnt, 40% off!"
Me: "That's just some olives, let me take that off for you."
Woman: "I don't like attitude, 80% off!"
The analogy, especially when illustrated by those specific pictures, can be counter argued. The old Realms represented by a preserved dead tree stuff with gaudy, visually-clashing fluff. Contrasted that to the new Realms, represented by a sparse but potentially still living, still rooted, still sitting in the wonder and potential of nature tree. A little nurturing can allow the new Realms to bloom, where as the old Realms can only further decay and the original magic of the place (the natural life essence of the tree) gets obscured by synthetic materials.
-Emphasis mine. To who? This type of statement is very subjective. For some, the level of detail was too deep. For others, just right. For some, not enough, even. How does such a sentiment get quantified?
-Emphasis mine. To who? This type of statement is very subjective. For some, the level of detail was too deep. For others, just right. For some, not enough, even. How does such a sentiment get quantified?
The bolded part represents me.
Sorry, I'm new to the boards so many of the acronyms confuse me. If there's a list of them somewhere that someone could point me to, that would be extremely helpful.
What does RSE stand for?
RSE: Realms Shattering Event.
It's when an author or design team decides to unleash
I'm not sure anyone's created a big list of acronyms. At least, no thread that I've seen.
What does RSE stand for?
"Realms Shaking Event"
-An event that has some major repercussions on the setting as a whole. The Time of Troubles, or the Spellplague, are the two best examples.
Iluvrien-
I don't disagree. Of course WotC has always had a choice. Like I said all the changes they made are for naught, because all the problems that existed will only manifest themselves again in the future.
However, looking at things from WotC's prospective...
Oh, I don't disagree either about why WotC did what they did with the RSEs... I was just pointing out that saying the setting needed resetting to distance itself from the perception of them is false. I also disagree that people wouldn't be interested in local stuff...
Instead of being a high magic setting, it became a magic saturated setting. Instead of being a setting of well defined heroic characters, it became a setting of vast numbers of (mostly bland and redundant) epic characters.
I agree, they should have gotten shot of everyone except from The Chosen, The Cormyrean Court and The Denizens of Waterdeep... and pretty much everyone from Elaine's novels. :D
After all, with all the high level NPC's around what can you reasonably expect them to do that would not lead to some type of RSE? The options are rather limited in order to keep things interesting. It'd be like having an entire Drizzt Trilogy devoted to nothing but complexity, intrigue and political maneuverings. Those reading the books aren't -really- interested in that type of story, they're interested in a fantasy action adventure book.
Please, don't make generalisations like that. At the moment I am only reading the books and I would give my le... quite a lot to have those kinds of stories featuring the characters I enjoy reading about. More about this below...
After all, if they were writing stories about those sorts of things (local small scale stuff) they would not need NPCs so epic in nature. While it is certainly a choice on WotC's part, it's a choice made in large part based upon what they believe people will buy. If they believed more people would buy the other stuff they'd have the authors begin to write that.
Indeed, and yet people do buy the other stuff. I don't know if you will have heard of him but there is an author called L. E. Modesiitt. Most famous for his Recluce series. He does write books in which Epic Characters do Epic Things, but you know what? For the most part they don't. In fact my two favourite sub-series of his are all about Epic Characters fighting tooth and nail to not remake the world even though at least one certainly could... and both take place against byzantine politics and moral and ethical dilemmas with a lot of "best of a bad situation"... and even after about 1600 pages of it I am not half as sick of the way that he portrays it as I am with the way WotC seems to be doing.
As usual, it isn't what is being done. It is how it is being done.
There is more but this post is already obscenely long.
There is more but this post is already obscenely long.
-Pft. You ain't seen nothin' yet. A response is obscenely long when it won't go through, due to exceeding the text limit, and you still weren't done addressing the points you wanted to. ;)
As usual, it isn't what is being done. It is how it is being done.
Of this, we completely agree. My dislike of epic level NPC's in the novels grew from the fact that they became so numerous.
After all, what makes Elminster special if there are a hundred other NPCs just as powerful and many more with even greater power, which they achieved in a vastly shorter timeframe?
Elminster was special precisely because he was rare and unique. Mystra's Chosen were special precisely because they were a tight knit group and were unique. Then other gods got them and we got Chosen out the wazoo. (Not to mention the fact that Mystra herself had way too many.)
I was just pointing out that saying the setting needed resetting to distance itself from the perception of them is false.
The reset was done for a number of reasons as far as I can tell.
1. To give authors and designers a clean slate.
2. To make the setting more newbie friendly and cut down on the intimidation factor.
3. To make the setting compatible with 4th Edition D&D rules.
4. To make things work easier with the Living Forgotten Realms stuff (easier to bring in new people as both vets and newbies are now on the same level).
6. Bloat from various things that were simply shoehorned into the setting with out any real thought on how it impacted it (Maztica, Zakhara, Kara-Tura, and other things).
7. Correct some bad design decisions.
8. Make the Realms fall in line with their "points of light" theme.
Those more or less cover the reasons why in my opinion.
99.9% of the entire world was filled with level 1 commoners. Those folks would have a hard enough time dealing with a level 10 Wizard. Add twenty levels to that, and they don't stand a chance.
What I wanted was internal consistency with the world. By the logic the world is presenting me, vast areas of the Realms should have been conquered by lone wizards (and other super high levels) because no one could really stop them. Unless, of course, you created MORE high levels to keep the existing ones in check.
That is what the Realms tried to do, but it quickly spiraled out of control.
I view high level anything as the sole province of a few select individuals such as Elminster, the Blackstaff, Larloch, etc. The players certainly have the potential to reach those heights eventually as well. However, to make high levels so common diminishes the things that Elminster, Larloch and all the others took lifetimes to accomplish.
If you measure the rate at which some of these epic NPC's achieved power then within the span of a generation they all would quickly outpace even Larloch. Going from level 1 to level 20 in a decade of time is not reasonable. Looking at Elminster's level, and extrapolating all of that, he'd be well over level 100.
If you measure the rate at which some of these epic NPC's achieved power then within the span of a generation they all would quickly outpace even Larloch. Going from level 1 to level 20 in a decade of time is not reasonable. Looking at Elminster's level, and extrapolating all of that, he'd be well over level 100.
This is one of the reasons I didn't understand people's attitude to the Sisters. Only one of them used her great power openly (Alassra)... the rest just finagled a lot... and it had taken them over 600 years to get there in the first place!
But you see, it's not so much about the Seven Sisters, Elminster, the Blackstaff or other such individuals. It's about them plus all the others. The only reason they get tossed around so much is because they are the most visible.
However, you are correct. If you look at how long it has taken for Larloch, Elminster, the Seven Sisters and the like to reach their levels of power, then turn around and look at all the new kids on the block... isn't there a problem, somewhere? Even if a novel begins with an NPC at low levels, by the time they reach epic levels they've done so in the maximum of two to three years (I am being generous here).
This to me implies one of two things:
1. These individuals are of such extraordinary skill that they will become the best and most powerful in all the land, outstripping and outpacing even the likes of Larloch within the span of a decade.
2. That the system is broken and there is no way these NPC's could reach such power in such a short amount of time.
It just does not work with the lore, the history and the already established NPC's. What is more, their very existence upsets the delicate balance that was designed to maintain the status quo. The more you inject them, the more RSE's you have (as the balance between powers becomes disrupted), and the more RSE's you have the more the integrity of the setting is called into question. (How come it hasn't all collapsed like a house of cards by now?)
This has always been my fundamental problem with these NPC's. However, it gets worse in that when new players want to play in the Realms, then they are 'tainted' with the opinion that this is the type of experience that they can expect. The fact of the matter is the Realms was not designed with this type of experience in mind and only began to manifest itself after first edition, first slowly in second edition, and then overwhelmingly so in third edition.
When I first heard of the 4th Edition changes I had hoped that this type of silliness would be fixed. I had hoped that the world itself was undergoing a radical change in order to bring things all back into line toward how the Realms was more originally conceived. I am somewhat divided on if this issue in particular has been solved. It certainly, I think, in 4th Edition, becomes much easier for a DM to manage simply due to the nature of the slate being cleaned and lack of information.
However, the real key and test is that overtime it is very likely that things will find themselves in a similar state as before, thus requiring a similar massive upheaval to once again clean the slate.
All in all, I guess my main disappointment is that the Realms has gone by in large in a direction that I do not approve of, and while 4E does fix some of the problems I saw in the setting, it also does nothing to address the root cause. Neither does 4E Realms return to the original feel of the Forgotten Realms, and in fact seems to have largely gone in a completely different direction.
All of the above, of course, is just my opinion. Mileage varies for everyone.
No, I don't see it like that at all, Alediran. I see it in terms of power. I am not talking about epic level play itself - I think the Realms should SEVERLY limit the number of NPC's above level 15 or so because such power is obtainable only by a select few.
99.9% of the entire world was filled with level 1 commoners. Those folks would have a hard enough time dealing with a level 10 Wizard. Add twenty levels to that, and they don't stand a chance.
What I wanted was internal consistency with the world. By the logic the world is presenting me, vast areas of the Realms should have been conquered by lone wizards (and other super high levels) because no one could really stop them. Unless, of course, you created MORE high levels to keep the existing ones in check.
That is what the Realms tried to do, but it quickly spiraled out of control.
I view high level anything as the sole province of a few select individuals such as Elminster, the Blackstaff, Larloch, etc. The players certainly have the potential to reach those heights eventually as well. However, to make high levels so common diminishes the things that Elminster, Larloch and all the others took lifetimes to accomplish.
If you measure the rate at which some of these epic NPC's achieved power then within the span of a generation they all would quickly outpace even Larloch. Going from level 1 to level 20 in a decade of time is not reasonable. Looking at Elminster's level, and extrapolating all of that, he'd be well over level 100.
Again you mix levels with acomplishments. Pure levels don't mean squat. Just being High Level means you are high level, those NPCs you reference acomplished many things that never had any relation to their level. Stop thinking that just being high level means to be special. Some people take a few years to become archmages, others take more time because they choose to do different things (Elminster, for example, has spent "XP" on magic items, every time he was resurrected, Elminster's Evasion spells and many other things that have kept his levels from reaching higher).
Repeat with me: level has nothing to do with specialness, that is given by the character's story. A 40th level drizzt clone is less special than the 16th level original Drizzt.
I run a Neverwinter Nights server, that tries to be faithful to FR lore/etc, while keeping in mind that the point of it all is to have fun. One thing that tends to be true is that the playerbase is always in flux - old players leave, new players join. After a while, you have a mixture of those who've been around for some time, and those who are relatively newer (if not brand new). What this means is that there is a certain level disparity - to the new player, they're logging in for the first time, starting out at low level, while there are other players in the 17-23 range. Thus, we have to deal with this sort of thing on a much more immediate basis.
So how do we handle that? For one, we try to give every player their 'moments in the spotlight.' We tend to frown on/try to avoid higher level players holding that fact over the heads of newer ones (though really, when you stop focusing on the number, and focus instead on the roleplay aspects, this isn't as much of an issue). We also have an experience system designed to let newer players quickly get to the point where they can participate fully in the ongoing storyline, while at the same time not eliminating the rewards for having been around long enough to get to an advanced level.
Bottom line, I think the whole matter of worrying that NPCs are too high in level, and overshadow the PCs, is a little overblown. After all - most NPCs in World of Warcraft (even 'commoner' types) are of ridiculously high level, to be on par with the PCs, yet this really doesn't bother most players of that game. Why not? Probably because it's how those levels are used, and how often they come into play (which isn't often).
Again you mix levels with acomplishments. Pure levels don't mean squat. Just being High Level means you are high level, those NPCs you reference acomplished many things that never had any relation to their level. Stop thinking that just being high level means to be special. Some people take a few years to become archmages, others take more time because they choose to do different things (Elminster, for example, has spent "XP" on magic items, every time he was resurrected, Elminster's Evasion spells and many other things that have kept his levels from reaching higher).
Repeat with me: level has nothing to do with specialness, that is given by the character's story. A 40th level drizzt clone is less special than the 16th level original Drizzt.
To toss in a different sort of viewpoint on this...
I run a Neverwinter Nights server, that tries to be faithful to FR lore/etc, while keeping in mind that the point of it all is to have fun. One thing that tends to be true is that the playerbase is always in flux - old players leave, new players join. After a while, you have a mixture of those who've been around for some time, and those who are relatively newer (if not brand new). What this means is that there is a certain level disparity - to the new player, they're logging in for the first time, starting out at low level, while there are other players in the 17-23 range. Thus, we have to deal with this sort of thing on a much more immediate basis.
So how do we handle that? For one, we try to give every player their 'moments in the spotlight.' We tend to frown on/try to avoid higher level players holding that fact over the heads of newer ones (though really, when you stop focusing on the number, and focus instead on the roleplay aspects, this isn't as much of an issue). We also have an experience system designed to let newer players quickly get to the point where they can participate fully in the ongoing storyline, while at the same time not eliminating the rewards for having been around long enough to get to an advanced level.
Bottom line, I think the whole matter of worrying that NPCs are too high in level, and overshadow the PCs, is a little overblown. After all - most NPCs in World of Warcraft (even 'commoner' types) are of ridiculously high level, to be on par with the PCs, yet this really doesn't bother most players of that game. Why not? Probably because it's how those levels are used, and how often they come into play (which isn't often).
First, Alediran you are not understanding in what context I am using the word 'special'. When I say special, I am talking about something that sets an NPC or a PC above and beyond what is normal for others. They're cut from a different cloth than everyone else - hence they are special. Their high levels represent that fact, but they also represent power which is tied to their stories, their deeds, and their accomplishments. These are things that have taken lifetimes for them to achieve.
When you bring in someone new, a guy off the street, basically, and make him an Archmage equal in POWER to Elminster, or worse, even more powerful (which is measured by level) then you've effectively overshadowed Elminster and diminished everything he's done to achieve what he has.
However, let's make the situation worse, as it has become: This does not happen once, but repeatedly again and again. Suddenly, almost out of the blue, there are very high level NPC's everywhere, all of them on Chosen level power scales. They've accomplished what has taken Elminster lifetimes to accomplish within the span of a few years.
Do you realize how hard it is to learn magic? Canonically, in Halruua (in 3E) it took an apprentice ten years to even master simple cantrips. Those who go on to become Archmages within the span of a few years are gifted; they have gifts beyond even Elminster. Yet, if this happens repeatedly, again and again, it is no longer special, but normal, average, mundane, expected and trivial.
That is my point.
Second, to Fire_Wraith to increase the levels of commoners might work in a MMORPG but it does not work in a role-playing game. In a world where things must be logically consistent, what need do NPC's need of heroes if they are all level 30 battling against level 5 or 6 Orcs?
NPC's are that way in a MMORPG to keep people from slaughtering them. The same would happen in FR if you unleashed a bunch of high levels upon the world. They would slaughter indiscriminately and the low level NPC's (those under 5th level which make up 99.999% of the world) would be helpless to stop them.
After all, what hope do simple commoners have against an invisible flying wizard with a wand of fireballs? Even simple things, such as how war is conducted has to be rethought. Look at the history of the Realms and you will not see the use of a great deal of magic in war.
Indeed, all of this high level stuff only came into full swing in third Edition. If anyone goes back to first and second edition material they will find a much more logical and balanced view of the Realms. For as many people who complain about the changes that took place from third to forth edition, the horrific mutilations of the setting that began in third edition have largely gone unnoticed.
Using your example of the new guy that become an archmage. Ok, he has more raw power than Elminster, but did he participated in the creation of Myth Drannor's Mythal, did he taught some of the Seven Sisters, did he formed the Harpers, and so on?
No, he didn't. His only acomplishment was surpassing Elminster's magic power, and that is nothing, compared to everything Elminster did in his life. That's what you need to get, that's the reason I can have 1000 characters of 40th level and don't have the problems you seem to have.
My problem is that the setting just doesn't work that way. It doesn't make sense. How do you get 'levels'? You adventure, you do things, you face challenges. The longer you live, the more time you have to do such things. The only other explanation (often used only for PC's) is 'unique inborn talent'.
Yet, when you have 1,000 NPC's running around all 40th level, that 'unique inborn talent' is now mundane.
Explain to me, exactly, how the setting functions with 1,000 40th level NPC's? What need are there for armies?
In order for the setting to function and remain LOGICAL these things, and everything in it, must be taken into account. Look at Eberron. The setting took into account a moderate amount of low level magic and look what it looks like.
Now look at the Realms. Eberron is a setting focused upon low levels. Now try and imagine what the Realms would look like, with 1,000 40th level wizards running around, and having to take their existence into account. Imagine what it would do to the world, the changes that would take place as a result.
Logic breaks down. It doesn't work. It is no longer the Realms, but something else entirely, even more changed than whatever is given to us by 4th Edition.
Alediran-
My problem is that the setting just doesn't work that way. It doesn't make sense. How do you get 'levels'? You adventure, you do things, you face challenges. The longer you live, the more time you have to do such things. The only other explanation (often used only for PC's) is 'unique inborn talent'.
Just because you have more time to gain more levels doesn't means you use it for that purpose. Alustriel spends 99% of her time ruling Silverymoon, and that in D&D terms don't give her experience at all, the same applies to almost all the NPCs since they aren't active adventurers that faces challenges constantly to earn more XP.
And "unique inborn talent" is not the only explanation: God help, finding a new and more effective way of becoming more powerful (that's the one I'm using with Alediran at this moment, the combination of constant study during break time and the rare properties of faezress have allowed Alediran to reach a mastery of magic at a pace that even most humans would find fast)
Yet, when you have 1,000 NPC's running around all 40th level, that 'unique inborn talent' is now mundane.
I don't care at all if I'm unique or not, all I care is to have fun with a character I like to play, if I'm the Chosen One for X or just happened to be the best option is irrelevant for me. I'm not an ego player who needs to feel unique or gets bored quickly.
Explain to me, exactly, how the setting functions with 1,000 40th level NPC's? What need are there for armies?
In order for the setting to function and remain LOGICAL these things, and everything in it, must be taken into account. Look at Eberron. The setting took into account a moderate amount of low level magic and look what it looks like.
Opossing forces and cold war, exactly what the realms have, and the wisdom of those like Elminster, Khelben or the Seven Sisters, who preffer to make more heroes rather than being the only one.
Now look at the Realms. Eberron is a setting focused upon low levels. Now try and imagine what the Realms would look like, with 1,000 40th level wizards running around, and having to take their existence into account. Imagine what it would do to the world, the changes that would take place as a result.
There would be no significant difference, people at that level of power rarely, if at all, intervene directly. You just need to think they are more like gods and less like hot shots
I'm a relative FR outsider who still uses the Gray Box and only owns about five other FR books. I got them in 1991, and enjoyed it immensely. I've never used a single NPC from any sourcebook, nor have I ever incorporated the events of a novel into my game world. I've barely used any of the local lore because it simply didn't exist when I played the most FR (1991-1994). I start campaigns at 1356 and don't follow any of the official timelines thereafter.
3e FR seemed like a joke to me. Too many gods, too many RSE's (I shy away from Krynn for the same reason), too many epic NPCs, and the whole thing seemed too much like a soap opera.
I view 4e FR as a different campaign setting. So far I'm liking most of what I've seen, probably because I've never cared about NPCs or advancing timelines. They need to tone down the RSE's from here on though, maybe even stop advancing the timeline altogether.
But that's just how I feel about it. I think most of the people hating the new FR are the ones who have faithfully followed every nuance of every tiny detail of every FR novel, accessory, and supplement over the past 21 years, and they feel that all these changes are robbing them of their favorite worlds. And they have a right to be angry, just as any fan feels when their favorite character bites the dust. We all saw a lot of that when the Harry Potter books started killing characters off.
Here's a thought. Maybe 4e's Points of Light will gradually increase in number via 4e adventures set in the realms, until the world is once again completely lit, whereupon the 5e Realms will be revealed.
I once DMed a guy who hated lizardmen. He said they were a stupid idea. I told him to use that hatred in character to kill the lizardmen. He ended up having fun.
I have started new campaigns before myself, by advancing the timeline a few thousand years and re-doing the map slightly. I don't mind the changes. If I have any issues it's with the fact they happened quickly over 100 years and not gradually over 5000.
To be honest, and I don't mean it in a harsh way, those explanations are weak. :P
First of all: 1,000 40th level wizards are not all going to be like Mystra's Chosen or even heroes at all. What you will have is 1,000 40th level wizards who are all independently minded with their own desires and goals, just like any other person, but with enough power where they can get whatever they want from most anyone they want without their consent.
Sure, there will be some who will use their power for good, but those individuals are by and far in the minority, and as such, if they get in the way are most likely the first to die.
Oh, and don't think that these 1,000 40th level wizards won't do battle. It's inevitable. And at that power, it's like letting lose a nuclear weapon. Entire swaths of the Realms would lay in ruins and wasteland as they unleash their power upon one another.
This isn't like the real world cold war. It only involved two super powers. This involves many super powers, and all it takes is one to strike first, and then it's a domino effect as each individual moves to protect their own interests.
As the saying goes, "With great power comes great responsibility." The more powerful individuals you have the greater chance you have of someone using it irresponsibly.
However, let's just for the sake of argument assume that 1,000 40th level Wizards all decided to work for the greater good. Well, then the first thing that would happen - most of the evil groups would be wiped out quickly. The Zhents don't have that type of fire power to deal with them, nor do the Red Wizards. The Shades likewise would be wiped out.
Of course, let's just ignore that bit and assume that they do not want to use their power for war. They're all going to be like the Chosen. This means they'll be ruling nations, and virtually every nation will feel imposed upon by these ultra powerful wizards, unable to say no to their offers for "help."
Some of them, those that do not run nations or "advise" their rulers will begin putting to use their magic for the public good. Imagine all the wonderfully useful magical items a 40th level Wizard can create. No longer do you have to walk Joe commoner, you can fly! What need do you have for ships or caravans? Portals can connect everything together. Of course, since they are all good guys who have chosen not to enter into battles against groups such as the Zhents, they still might make weapons for the lesser mortals to use. Won't the Zhents be a little surprised when they try and invade the Dales only to find that all the commoners have been equipped with wands of fireballs?
No longer will there be fear of crop failure or a lack of food. No longer will dangerous weather affect the world. No longer will the orc hordes be a threat or goblins be a problem. No longer will even everyday issues such as washing clothes be a problem - that's what you have your wand of prestidigitation for!
No longer is wealth a problem, either, because with magic it can easily be extracted from the land, and when the land no longer yields wealth there are other planes and worlds to find that can yield more.
Am I getting my point across? You cannot reasonably expect these high level individuals all to camp out in their wizardly towers, day in, day out, for their entire (likely immortal) lives, doing nothing to impact the world around them.
Hey doesn't the Sea of Silt kind of look shaped vaguely like part of the Sea of Fallen Stars? *nudge nudge wink wink*
First of all: 1,000 40th level wizards are not all going to be like Mystra's Chosen or even heroes at all. What you will have is 1,000 40th level wizards who are all independently minded with their own desires and goals, just like any other person, but with enough power where they can get whatever they want from most anyone they want without their consent.
And they are always going to be opossed by somebody else, a new group of heroes (when they are PCs), or one of the other 100 40th level wizards, there is always something out there that wants to stop you and has enough chances to succeede.
Sure, there will be some who will use their power for good, but those individuals are by and far in the minority, and as such, if they get in the way are most likely the first to die.
Good != stupid. Those who are good will act like Elminster and Khelben, making more heroes to help the cause of good.
Oh, and don't think that these 1,000 40th level wizards won't do battle. It's inevitable.
Not when attacking one gives another a good shot at your weak spot, that is what stops all the high level characters in the realms from blasting each other to dust. It's the same with 10, 100, 1000 or 10000 40th level wizards.
And at that power, it's like letting lose a nuclear weapon. Entire swaths of the Realms would lay in ruins and wasteland as they unleash their power upon one another.
And that's why others are going to stop them from fighting, or repair the consequences of battle. That's why you also have gods.
This isn't like the real world cold war. It only involved two super powers. This involves many super powers, and all it takes is one to strike first, and then it's a domino effect as each individual moves to protect their own interests.
When there is a cold war nobody wants to make the first strike because it means leaving yourself weak to attack. It's a bad idea, and the reason why the world did not ended in nuclear winter.
As the saying goes, "With great power comes great responsibility." The more powerful individuals you have the greater chance you have of someone using it irresponsibly.
And the more chances you also have to find somebody who can stop those irresponsibles.
However, let's just for the sake of argument assume that 1,000 40th level Wizards all decided to work for the greater good. Well, then the first thing that would happen - most of the evil groups would be wiped out quickly. The Zhents don't have that type of fire power to deal with them, nor do the Red Wizards. The Shades likewise would be wiped out.
That's not going to happen ever at all, there is nothing that can make 100 40th level wizards to act for the greater good. There is ALWAYS balance in nature, creation and destruction, good and evil and so on. When it's just two opossing 40th level wizards of 500 for one side and 500 for the other.
Of course, let's just ignore that bit and assume that they do not want to use their power for war. They're all going to be like the Chosen. This means they'll be ruling nations, and virtually every nation will feel imposed upon by these ultra powerful wizards, unable to say no to their offers for "help."
I would love to have leaders like the Chosen of Mystra, they are a lot better that anything we have on real life. Of course, that is not going to happen, because not every one of the 1000 40th level wizards is going to rule nations.
Some of them, those that do not run nations or "advise" their rulers will begin putting to use their magic for the public good. Imagine all the wonderfully useful magical items a 40th level Wizard can create.
Not much after you reach the base experience to be 40th level. And that can happen with one or two relatively cheap magic items.
No longer do you have to walk Joe commoner, you can fly!
No magic item can make you fly for that much time to be relevant.
What need do you have for ships or caravans? Portals can connect everything together.
Volume still beats portals.
Of course, since they are all good guys who have chosen not to enter into battles against groups such as the Zhents, they still might make weapons for the lesser mortals to use. Won't the Zhents be a little surprised when they try and invade the Dales only to find that all the commoners have been equipped with wands of fireballs?
They get beat the same without wands of fireball (that can be used only by few people anyway).
No longer will there be fear of crop failure or a lack of food.
Talona.
No longer will dangerous weather affect the world.
The gods of fury.
No longer will the orc hordes be a threat or goblins be a problem.
Their gods empower them to match the force of the civilized people.
No longer will even everyday issues such as washing clothes be a problem - that's what you have your wand of prestidigitation for!
Wands have charges, and in a world were conflict doesn't exists then you are not going to make enough experience to keep up with demand, especially when making just one wand takes you many days of hard work.
No longer is wealth a problem, either, because with magic it can easily be extracted from the land, and when the land no longer yields wealth there are other planes and worlds to find that can yield more.
Wealth is just a construction of the mind, if everybody could have access to gold then gold would loose it's value.
Am I getting my point across? You cannot reasonably expect these high level individuals all to camp out in their wizardly towers, day in, day out, for their entire (likely immortal) lives, doing nothing to impact the world around them.
No, you just made some asumptions based on weak points. You forgot that everything you just said is not going to happen because there are forces more powerful than 40th level wizards. You forgot that the world always balances itself and for every good aligned wizard there is also a neutral and an evil one, and that wizards aren't stupid to fight directly and cause mass destruction (unless you are a Cyricist, but those are crazy).
When there is a cold war nobody wants to make the first strike because it means leaving yourself weak to attack. It's a bad idea, and the reason why the world did not ended in nuclear winter.
The larger the group you have, the larger the chance you'll have someone make a move. Just because something is a bad idea does not mean no one will act in such a way.
I cannot honestly believe that you hold your points to be logical. I simply can't wrap my head around that type of thought. Every time I try and picture what you suggest, I only imagine a world that spirals quickly out of control, ending in devastation and ruin.
What you are saying: There are three powerful wizards, and to oppose them there are three more. Then there is another wizard and to oppose him, there is another, so on and so on ad infinitum. Then, if that is not enough, you bring in the gods.
No, it simply won't work. Everything will implode. As Elondir points out, Toril -will- become Athas.
It's not like Realmspace deities are sane, rational beings. :P
This is the reason that, for most higher levels, I have them go outward into the planes. There is more for them to do there, and if they want to be heroes then they can protect Toril from stuff that they can't really fight against.
It also makes more sense, IMO. It is hard for me to imagine a good aligned wizard setting up and camping out in a small community like Elminster does. I mean, think about it. You have a crap ton of enemies who want to wipe you off the face of the planet. They all know where you live. You're just asking for a few of them to get together and cast some epic spell that turns Shadowdale (or wherever) into a smoking crater.
In my games and Realms the more power you have, the more separated you are from society. Not because you want to be, but because you have to be - to protect them. If a massive battle breaks out between you and your archrival you want it to be in an area that isn't populated to avoid unnecessary deaths. Plus, you don't want your rival capturing an innocent person and threatening to kill them if you don't do whatever they want.
That's another reason you're compelled to leave Toril all together for the planes. To try and draw your enemies out there with you.
That is how I have always rationalized it and made things work.
You're fighting a no-one can win battle, you're taking up way too much space in the thread, you're driving other posters away from the forum and you're both beginning to look really silly flogging a horse shaped blood spot on the ground. Now there are other arguments going on that are just as bad as yours, but you got my atttention first.
I know this is bad form, but it did need to be said. I take full responsibility for my actions.
Belorin
That, and what was addressed, was handled in what was (in my opinion) a very clumsy manner. Since we're using the tree analogy, I'd liken it to overly aggressive pruning, perhaps with ill-suited tools (chainsaws and the like, rather than a trimmer, or something)
As an amateur gardener, that's the analogy I think I like best.
Also, I'd say they put grafts on the tree that don't work well with it or add to it's beauty.I guess you can compare it to putting cancer in remission. WotC may have put the "cancer" that had infected the Realms into remission, but they didn't remove the tumor and over time it's just going to come back again.
I agree with this, too. After all, the novels are still canon, (although to be fair, it's yet to be seen how the content of said novels is handled). If you grant that lots of lore is a problem (and I'm not saying I think that's self-evident, but hear me out), removing all that "excess baggage" solves the problem only temporary if you simply add more "baggage" back into the setting over the next several years.
I agree with this, too. After all, the novels are still canon, (although to be fair, it's yet to be seen how the content of said novels is handled). If you grant that lots of lore is a problem (and I'm not saying I think that's self-evident, but hear me out), removing all that "excess baggage" solves the problem only temporary if you simply add more "baggage" back into the setting over the next several years.
This is one of my biggest complaints about what's been done. In the end, I don't think anyone is really going to be satisfied with this.
Then again, maybe what they're trying to do is break everyone of dependence on canon/lore, as Markus suggests? If so, the only ones they're hurting are themselves.
But that's just how I feel about it. I think most of the people hating the new FR are the ones who have faithfully followed every nuance of every tiny detail of every FR novel, accessory, and supplement over the past 21 years, and they feel that all these changes are robbing them of their favorite worlds.
With all due respect, it seems unlikely that most people who dislike the new Realms followed (much less enjoyed) every single tiny detail of the previous setting. Really, everybody's different, and there's a lot of overlapping in people's preferences. I dislike the new Realms, but I also thought the constant stream of RSEs in the Realms was ridiculous.
I'm an outsider, I'm passingly familiar with the Realms but I never liked it for many of the "flaws" people are pointing out here (over-Epic, inconsistencies, etc).
And there were / are a lot of people like me, and instead we were drawn to pulpy-action settings such as Eberron, where the PCs really were heroes, or home-brew settings where there was much more of a traditional fantasy feeling (more forest greens than the disco light colours of the Realms) .
What WotC has done, imo, is looked at all those people like me and tried to make the Realms more like what we want. Does this work? Absolutely not! It's not going to win anyone over - we're happy with our Eberrons and our Points of Light settings. And the people who did love the Realms for what it was are left abandoned. That and the tortured fitting of the Realms into the new default D&D rules / setting just make it look all the more pandering. "Hey look - the Feywild has just appeared!" Would it have been so hard to re-flavour some of the D&D core material to the Realms, rather than the other way around?
Realms 4e is like a person, not very attractive, long married, abandoning the partner who loves them, to go chasing after a bunch of other potential partners who aren't interested in them anyway no matter how much they tart themselves up. I mean no offense - beauty is subjective. I'm just saying that the Realms should stay with the one who loves it, regardless of faults. Not go running off making a fool of itself.
She likes to have quiet little love affairs. She then loses interest, moving on to the next big thing, leaving the one she claimed to love abandoned. Tart.
I'm going to offer what I think is a fresh perspective here.
I'm an outsider, I'm passingly familiar with the Realms but I never liked it for many of the "flaws" people are pointing out here (over-Epic, inconsistencies, etc).
And there were / are a lot of people like me, and we looked at pulpy-action settings such as Eberron, where the PCs really were heroes, or home-brew settings where there was much more of a traditional fantasy feeling (more forest greens than the disco light colours of the Realms) .
What WotC has done, imo, is looked at all those people like me and tried to make the Realms more like what we want. Does this work? Absolutely not! It's not going to win anyone over - we're happy with our Eberrons and our Points of Light settings. And the people who did love the Realms for what it was are left abandoned. That and the tortured fitting of the Realms into the new default D&D rules / setting just make it look all the more pandering. "Hey look - the Feywild has just appeared!" Would it have been so hard to re-flavour some of the D&D core material to the Realms, rather than the other way around?
Realms 4e is like a person, not very attractive, long married, abandoning the partner who loves them, to go chasing after a bunch of other potential partners who aren't interested in them anyway no matter how much they tart themselves up. I mean no offense - beauty is subjective. I'm just saying that the Realms should stay with the one who loves it, regardless of faults. Not go running off making a fool of itself.
For that exact reason is why we always keep telling those who don't love the realms to: "Go play Eberron". It's a phrase that says if you don't like the realms you have other options to play with and we are all going to be happy, since you get what you want and we get what we want.
And it's nothing fresh for us, we already know that, but it seems that many preffer to kill our fun and morph into what they like, instead of searching for other options, which they do exist, just like you've said. Instead of that, we now have 2 "Eberrons".
Wh*redom is nothing new for the Forgotten Realms. That is how we got Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara. ;)
She likes to have quiet little love affairs. She then loses interest, moving on to the next big thing, leaving the one she claimed to love abandoned. Tart.
-Poor girl...
-Emphasis mine. To who? This type of statement is very subjective. For some, the level of detail was too deep. For others, just right. For some, not enough, even. How does such a sentiment get quantified?
I know I'm slow on the response. Let me clarify, my statement is only a counter based on this specific analogy using a dead tree dressed up in festive holiday trappings compared to a bare tree that is still in its natural environment.
Personally, I think a green, lush, still living and growing tree firmly rooted in the full wonder of nature would better represented the old Realms. Mind you, this isn't some perfect tree in paradise; it's in nature, it rains, it shines, there are bugs on that tree, leaves fall off, new branches sprout out, birds defecate on it, and occasionally you might get a rabid squirrel or a dirty monkey that likes to throw its feces. I think that is representative of the Realms and its history, both in games and out.
The picture representing the new Realms I apt I think, especially in light of the company's supposed lack of plans for future books on the setting. I think it is the case of someone wanting to graft apple branches to a lemon tree. Even if successful, we're talking about something that is very different than what grew from the ground up.
I know I'm slow on the response. Let me clarify, my statement is only a counter based on this specific analogy using a dead tree dressed up in festive holiday trappings compared to a bare tree that is still in its natural environment.
-Those were rhetorical questions, just to demonstrate the highly subjective nature of such statements.
-Those were rhetorical questions, just to demonstrate the highly subjective nature of such statements.
I know. I still wanted to express what I felt would be a stronger analogy, imo. Something I forgot to do in my previous post.
I'm going to offer what I think is a fresh perspective here.
I have to say, I think you did.
At least, it's not a perspective I see around here too often.I'm going to offer what I think is a fresh perspective here.
I'm an outsider, I'm passingly familiar with the Realms but I never liked it for many of the "flaws" people are pointing out here (over-Epic, inconsistencies, etc).
And there were / are a lot of people like me, and instead we were drawn to pulpy-action settings such as Eberron, where the PCs really were heroes, or home-brew settings where there was much more of a traditional fantasy feeling (more forest greens than the disco light colours of the Realms) .
What WotC has done, imo, is looked at all those people like me and tried to make the Realms more like what we want. Does this work? Absolutely not! It's not going to win anyone over - we're happy with our Eberrons and our Points of Light settings. And the people who did love the Realms for what it was are left abandoned. That and the tortured fitting of the Realms into the new default D&D rules / setting just make it look all the more pandering. "Hey look - the Feywild has just appeared!" Would it have been so hard to re-flavour some of the D&D core material to the Realms, rather than the other way around?
Realms 4e is like a person, not very attractive, long married, abandoning the partner who loves them, to go chasing after a bunch of other potential partners who aren't interested in them anyway no matter how much they tart themselves up. I mean no offense - beauty is subjective. I'm just saying that the Realms should stay with the one who loves it, regardless of faults. Not go running off making a fool of itself.
Thats actually fairly well said. I don't know why they feel they needed to do this to the Realms. For those who don't like the lore heavy Realms, there were many good alternatives such as the new Core Setting, which seems rather cool actually.
The only thing I can think of is what I have said elsewhere, certain authors wanted to do away with the homework and not worry about lore when writing novels
-A better analogy, maybe. I don't like the Yankees. There is nothing the Yankee organization can do to make me a Yankee fan.
It was amusing to see someone else ask what RSE stood for, although I pretty much got the drift from the context, only to see someone list the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague as the "best" examples. Personally I thought to myself those were the ONLY examples. Obviously there have been other large events in various corners of the Realms, but nothing but those 2 examples have affected the entire Realms at large for that 99.99% of level 1 characters as someone so eloquently put it. Maybe that's just my own perspective, but I never got the sense that any of the other storylines were RSE's.
In that same vein of thought, perhaps people's home games or campaign's are littered with 1,000 level 40 characters but in the novels it certainly does not feel that way. That poster kept bringing up many other NPC's seeming as powerful or more powerful than the likes of Mystra's Chosen and Elminster in particular, but you don't really get that sense at all from any other character in any of the novels with regards to Elminster. The sole exceptions could be a Larloch or a Halaster who were both older than Elminster himself, although various bits in some of the stories and dialogue between the two make it seem as though Elminster had bested Halaster in the past. While they did expand in greater detail far more "powerful" characters in the realms in the novels, even ones on the level of the Chosen of Mask did not feel anywhere near as "realm shattering" in power as the oldest archmages, etc.
Having read Swordmage and now Blackstaff Tower, both books I did enjoy for their stories, but it felt like they bungled what they were going for in advancing the timeline 100 years. I don't want to post any spoilers and don't know how to hide them so I'll be as vague as possible, but it seemed as if Swordmage literally could've been a stand alone story on its own completely outside of any Realmslore if you just changed the names and places with the few mentions of history. It did offer some continuity from prior to the time leap very early on in the story, but largely everything else could've been in any other random setting with just the simple backstory for the area where the events in the book take place. Maybe this is what they were going for with the switch. But if that is the case, why does it have to be attached to the FR name at all? Conversely, Blackstaff Tower, which originally I expected to be a direct sequel to Blackstaff (both by Steven E. Schend), also takes the time leap into account. But in this case its a lot more drastic and if everyone in this thread is calling some of the storylines in the preceding years to the time leap RSE's, it seems in this book they want you to at least know some of the history/lore in between the time leap, and they fill it with by far more "RSE's" than what occurred before the Spellplague. Without any real spoilers I'll just say I had a problem with the lack of longevity with regards to previous examples. Not to mention the book, in divulging some of the history and lore in the intervening years, seems to ignore completely the storyline and assumptions in the novel City of Splendors. Those who have read or will read Blackstaff Tower will hopefully know what I'm alluding to.
All in all I thought both books after the time leap were good stories in their own right, but it didn't have the complete "feel" of the Realms. It just all feels like once I read Grand History of the Realms and saw where they were going with the setting that 90% of these supposed "RSE's" were a direct result of their desire to install 4e rules to the setting and in trying to remove all of the "too epic NPC's" all within 5-10 years of the timeline somehow. Most of the building storyline events would've worked fine in the normal timeline flow if they just kept it going, but they just pushed it all together to get to where they could throw in 4e and jump ahead 100 years, not use 4e to clean up all of the "RSE's" that the setting itself and all of the "too epic NPC's" were creating.
Jumbled and biased of course, because I loved the old realms and all of the lore, it made it truly unique to me as a reader. Have at it
Although I'm not sure if this applies to pines or trees that thrive in a temperate climate, There is usually a functioning ecosystem with trees in the tropical rain forest. A tree provides sanctuary for the bird and other animals. Many types of animals feed upon the fruits and vegetation. At the same time, these animals provide nutrients for the tree. They keep the soil fertile with their droppings. As the tree grows, some animals build their nests on the branches of the tree. Others may even find within it, a home for generations and generations of their kind.
Sometimes calamities happen, a lightning bolt strikes the tree killing some of it's inhabitants and leaving the tree horribly scarred, but the tree is strong because of it's inhabitants, it's ecosystem is still functioning. It replaces what it lost and grows stronger. This is nature.
Then a group of self-styled artist decides to remodel the tree. They drive away the animals and start trimming off all the leaves and the branches to give it a more 'gothic' edgier feel. After that, they are pleased with themselves.
My friends, what happens if the old inhabitants don't come back? Even the newcomers cant find a good reason to stick around. The tree clearly does not provide protection from the elements, nourishment, a habitat and it cannot sustain an ecosystem. I hope that this tree can survive when stripped of its leaves like the pine in winter... or else this tree is doomed. Despite how much money those self-style artists shovel into the soil. It does nothing for the tree. I doubt they know anything about gardening. After a while they will just move on. Its cheaper to trim another tree down than maintain this dead tree...
I have a bad feeling that our FR is not a pine tree. If so guys & gals, this is a critical moment for our beloved Realms... we have to stick together and try to maintain it. For those who don't like the realms... feel free to crap all over it :P The worst thing we can do is leave it alone.
Coincidence 2: I love the 4th edition Realms because the transition from 3.5 to 4th can be summed up as "100 years and a few cataclysms later..."
Faerun was pretty much the epitome of civilization (multiple decent sized kingdoms, "safe" travel, good communication and all) and is now in a "wounded" state that it is slowly recovering from - but not without it's "scars" (returned abeir, after effects of the spellplague, and what not).
It has basically become a post-apocalyptic setting, and that's why I've started using it.
Odd coincidence 1: I hate Christmas, and I think the pre-4th edition Realms were overly cluttered and so full of things both good and bad that I could not, as a DM, use the setting without risking a player mucking up the game with a lot of "But what about [reference to canon information that contradicts my plot line]?" ...which completely ruins a game for me.
IMHO that's a problem with the player not the setting itself. It' like complaining about dinosaur riding halflings in Eberon
Coincidence 2: I love the 4th edition Realms because the transition from 3.5 to 4th can be summed up as "100 years and a few cataclysms later..."
Can't the transition from 2E to 3E could be sum up as " 15 years and a few cataclysms later?" (not being a smartass just wondering...
Faerun was pretty much the epitome of civilization (multiple decent sized kingdoms, "safe" travel, good communication and all) and is now in a "wounded" state that it is slowly recovering from - but not without it's "scars" (returned abeir, after effects of the spellplague, and what not).
IMO 3E Faerun is no epitome of civilzation (compared to netheril or Imascar and myth Drannor (sp?) ) but oh well...
It has basically become a post-apocalyptic setting, and that's why I've started using it.
Here's the thing It a post apocaliptic setting but is not supposed to be...
The thing I love most about it is it's depth, its characters, the localities. To me, its a living, breathing world filled with intrigue. To me, the RSEs were a fun read actually. From the ToT onwards, something was actually happening in the realms! Isn't that a good thing? Than the events of the spellplague and passage of a 100 years without hearing a fart...
I play the old realms in CRPG. But, If I were to play it in pnp I would be fighting dragons, visiting locales, shaking hands with Old El, take pictures with the Seven hotties, fool around with halaster, play dead with Larloch, drink tea with blackstaff, spar with drizzt and join them all in their adventure, Fighting off RSEs..
But now, its just another piece of land filled with monsters with no end in sight... You can fight them, but whats the use...
Post apocalyptic setting? Wasn't there eberron for that...
Why bring it to the realms...
IMHO that's a problem with the player not the setting itself. It' like complaining about dinosaur riding halflings in Eberon
You are right here, no question about that. The setting being so huge and popular did make the chance of encountering said "problem player" much higher though.
I basically met the guy, but that was while I was trying to run a Vampire: the Masquerade game... and he insisted that I use canon information that basically rendered all PCs in the city useless by comparison because a certain NPC was, according to canon, in town during that time keeping the peace.
I had to literally set the city on fire to get to a point where the characters could finally be doing something other than expecting this big-bad NPC to do everything since he was around and that was his job... I hope to never encounter such a player again, ever, in any game.
Can't the transition from 2E to 3E could be sum up as " 15 years and a few cataclysms later?" (not being a smartass just wondering...
I actually wouldn't know as I wasn't paying close enough attention at the time.
IMO 3E Faerun is no epitome of civilzation (compared to netheril or Imascar and myth Drannor (sp?) ) but oh well...
I was comparing it to an "uncivilized" setting, such as Darksun, and was also meaning Forgotten Realms as a whole, not just Faerun.
Here's the thing It a post apocaliptic setting but is not supposed to be...
Not supposed to be? According to who? Let's see here: step 1) cataclysmic event occurs that kills a lot of people and changes the world forever? check, one Spellplague and Returned Abeir. step 2) Timeline moved forward to illustrate how people have been dealing with the after effects? Check, 100 years. Step 3) The "new world" is still in a state of recovery as your characters begin to affect it? Check, campaign guide mentions things aren't as they once were.
Guess that means the writers say that it is supposed to be a setting after an "apocalypse."
Aaron, well, the realms has gotten so big. It can be different things to different people. I learned about the realms when a classmate introduced me to the game baldur's gate II. I've been picking up the novels from time to time ever since.
The thing I love most about it is it's depth, its characters, the localities. To me, its a living, breathing world filled with intrigue. To me, the RSEs were a fun read actually. From the ToT onwards, something was actually happening in the realms! Isn't that a good thing? Than the events of the spellplague and passage of a 100 years without hearing a fart...
I play the old realms in CRPG. But, If I were to play it in pnp I would be fighting dragons, visiting locales, shaking hands with Old El, take pictures with the Seven hotties, fool around with halaster, play dead with Larloch, drink tea with blackstaff, spar with drizzt and join them all in their adventure, Fighting off RSEs..
But now, its just another piece of land filled with monsters with no end in sight... You can fight them, but whats the use...
Post apocalyptic setting? Wasn't there eberron for that...
Why bring it to the realms...
Eberron didn't have any sort of "apocalypse" type event... just a big war.
As far as the way you see the Realms, such as meeting some famous NPCs and maybe even joining them in their adventures... My players met Mordenkainen once, and all that really did is make them wonder "If he is around, why are we the ones down in the ruins trying to save Greyhawk?"
If you like meeting people that do what you do, but are better at it, or meeting these famous people that you have somehow already surpassed in skill even though they have more experience... then I can see how the old Realms intrigued you.
I much prefer the party (if I'm running the game) or my character (if I am playing) to be the main characters of the story, and to never have the credibility of that strained by their being enough people of higher level and greater fame that could be doing what they are instead.
It makes me feel like the party could come in to try and rescue a village and be told "we need real heroes here... if you take this letter to [insert famous NPC] asking for help, we will pay you."
IMHO that's a problem with the player not the setting itself. It' like complaining about dinosaur riding halflings in Eberon
-Dinosaur riding Halflings!?
-Dinosaur riding Halflings!?
I rest my case :P
Not supposed to be? According to who? Let's see here: step 1) cataclysmic event occurs that kills a lot of people and changes the world forever? check, one Spellplague and Returned Abeir. step 2) Timeline moved forward to illustrate how people have been dealing with the after effects? Check, 100 years. Step 3) The "new world" is still in a state of recovery as your characters begin to affect it? Check, campaign guide mentions things aren't as they once were.
Guess that means the writers say that it is supposed to be a setting after an "apocalypse."
I meant before 4E...
I meant before 4E...
Oh, right... that makes complete sense. Sorry I missed your meaning.
Is there really anything wrong with adding a new thing or two to the list of "what makes Forgotten Realms different"?
Sure, Forgotten Realms didn't use to be a post apocalyptic world... and D&D didn't used to be internally balanced.
Oh, right... that makes complete sense. Sorry I missed your meaning.
we cool ;)
Is there really anything wrong with adding a new thing or two to the list of "what makes Forgotten Realms different"?
Not at all! going on par with the spirit of the OP is not what they did is How they did it.
I don't mind changes, shoot, all my fav characters in Everything die and I doesn't really upsets me much. but when you change stuff just because, is stupid. I don't mind the death of mystra or the plague, but to tell me that Cyric kill her in her own plane? Or to tell me they have to extract a whole continent so "they" could put their Abeir, when Toril already have 3-4 other continents label as "unknown lands"?
Sure, Forgotten Realms didn't use to be a post apocalyptic world... and D&D didn't used to be internally balanced.
that's another thing i don't like but that neither here or there...
Here's the thing It a post apocaliptic setting but is not supposed to be...
Not supposed to be? According to who?
I can answer that: according to the legions of fans who liked it as it was.
Now short of a new and larger legion of fans appearing to show that the changes have been for the benefit of an unexpected majority, I think we have a reasonable argument to say that the Realms are supposed to be a particular thing (i.e. what the fans want and love).
I don't think that legion of fans will appear. If you want grit and war-torn lands where there are few high level NPCs (other than those who will kill you if they meet you), then you have Eberron. If you want a more generic, fantasy setting with a touch of danger, then you have the default Points of Light setting. I doubt that the revised Realms will compete with these things on their own turf as all it can do is appear imitative and with extra weighty baggage. But it's not supposed to be baggage! It's a vast and complex history that was at one point part of the current campaign setting but is now just archaic lore irrelevant to the game.
I liked Eberron. In several ways Eberron influenced the development of 4e with its emphasis on heroism and lack of powerful NPCs ready to step in and preserve the default setting. And as to dinosaur riding barbarian halfings... don't knock it till you've tried it. ;)
But I really feel for the forgotten Realms fans.
And as to dinosaur riding barbarian halfings... don't knock it till you've tried it. ;)
all I'm saying is that that's not the first thing you think when you think about halflings, but is not a bad thingAlthough I'm not sure if this applies to pines or trees that thrive in a temperate climate, There is usually a functioning ecosystem with trees in the tropical rain forest. A tree provides sanctuary for the bird and other animals. Many types of animals feed upon the fruits and vegetation. At the same time, these animals provide nutrients for the tree. They keep the soil fertile with their droppings. As the tree grows, some animals build their nests on the branches of the tree. Others may even find within it, a home for generations and generations of their kind.
By the way, that description does apply to trees in a temperate climate.
Conversely, Blackstaff Tower, which originally I expected to be a direct sequel to Blackstaff (both by Steven E. Schend), also takes the time leap into account. But in this case its a lot more drastic and if everyone in this thread is calling some of the storylines in the preceding years to the time leap RSE's, it seems in this book they want you to at least know some of the history/lore in between the time leap, and they fill it with by far more "RSE's" than what occurred before the Spellplague. Without any real spoilers I'll just say I had a problem with the lack of longevity with regards to previous examples. Not to mention the book, in divulging some of the history and lore in the intervening years, seems to ignore completely the storyline and assumptions in the novel City of Splendors. Those who have read or will read Blackstaff Tower will hopefully know what I'm alluding to.
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this. You can hide them using the [sblock] tag.
As far as the way you see the Realms, such as meeting some famous NPCs and maybe even joining them in their adventures... My players met Mordenkainen once, and all that really did is make them wonder "If he is around, why are we the ones down in the ruins trying to save Greyhawk?"
Well, from what I understand of Mordenkainen, he was always a strictly neutral keeper of "balance", not a "big damn hero".
But anyway, he (or any other character) is just one person and couldn't solve everyone's problems--provided he even wanted to.
If you like meeting people that do what you do, but are better at it, or meeting these famous people that you have somehow already surpassed in skill even though they have more experience... then I can see how the old Realms intrigued you.
Well, when you put it like that, you make it sound more unpleasant/undesirable than is it probably the case. Many players like famous NPCs because of who they are as characters. And not all "famous" NPCs are even of high level.
I much prefer the party (if I'm running the game) or my character (if I am playing) to be the main characters of the story, and to never have the credibility of that strained by their being enough people of higher level and greater fame that could be doing what they are instead.
I don't understand how the fact that there are other "more powerful" people in the world means the PCs can't be the stars of the story.
I can answer that: according to the legions of fans who liked it as it was.
And probably according to the creator of the setting.
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this. You can hide them using the [sblock] tag.
I'd love to expound on them...
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Blackstaff Tower while although a nice story with believable characters to some extent (I do like Schend a LOT) did little for me to "bridge the gap" from the conclusion of Blackstaff to the current Waterdeep (1479 DR, Year of the Ageless One). All of the whining I've seen on other threads about so many so-called RSE's seem pale in comparison to the "history" they seem to throw in at random in Blackstaff Tower. I'll grant they did make attempts to link the history of the intervening years with the past we all know and love, by showing the timeline and progression of the Open Lord and subsequent Blackstaff's. My problem with the Open Lord, or rather who held the title, has nothing to do with how many held it since Piergeiron, as there was only one other in between him and the new one in "current" Waterdeep. That was Caladorn Cassalanter, a character at least familiar to some. I thought it was a little odd that they seemed to completely dismiss the storyline/lore and assumptions made at the conclusion of the novel The City of Splendors, as it seemed quite clear that not only was there more in store for that cast of young nobles but that Beldar Roaringhorn, in the semblance of Korvaun Helmfast would be the successor to Piergeiron. Now perhaps they decided he died early or decided to go in another direction, but that's half of what drives me nuts about the time leap and end of the old world, start of the new thinking...all of the actual new, fresh characters/heroes/villians that they DID succeed in bringing to us get swept away before they actually told their full stories.
The matter of the multiple Blackstaff's since Khelben's death to the current Waterdeep just makes me really salty. Tsarra Chaadren, Kyriani Agrivar, Krehlan Arunson (son of Khelben and Laeral), Ashemmon (Krehlan's best friend and although there is nothing in the book to suggest it, the name makes it seem painfully obvious he was the son of Sememmon and Ashemmi), and Samark Dhanzscul all claimed the title of Blackstaff in the intervening years. The book literally begins with Samark being killed in a seemingly simple ploy, leaving his apprentice Vajra Safahr to take up the mantle after him. Clearly it would be difficult to live up to Khelben's reputation as the original Blackstaff, although there is veiled references of Tsarra maintaining the illusion of still being Khelben until an occurrence of the Spellplague breaks the illusion, bringing all of Khelben's old enemies to Waterdeep over 2 years in attempts to seize his old power/secrets. The reference makes it sound like she put them all in their place as well.
The handling of Tsarra is another example of what drives me nuts about the "new Realms". Most of the people up in arms over the time leap and all the changes to FR going to 4e actually appreciated that character and accepted her assuming the role of the Blackstaff. This is because (my opinion of course) the story that told how it came about and the conclusion of Khelben's story/life was a worthy one that did credit to the history, secrets, and grandeur of the Realms and one of its greatest enduring characters. I would've loved to have read all of the events that occurred to Tsarra in her role of the Blackstaff. I think its ridiculous and a cheap way of making the new Realms after the Spellplague seem "dark and dangerous indeed" by just deciding that FIVE new Blackstaff's assumed the title and were subsequently killed within 105 years of the original. You're just told bits like that Reagar and Nameless sacrificed themselves to save Tsarra from an incident of magichaos from the Spellplague and continue on as a Haunting in a corrupted forest guarding a historic weapon of Waterdeep, Azuredge. The weapon is then given to one of the "new heroes" who the entire novel suggests is just a sell sword with some ethics until suddenly the weapon, once wielded by Lauroun former warlord of Waterdeep, has him reveal in a dream sequence some tattoo that got no previous mention in the book and it matches the family crest of Lauroun. Like I've said in other thread, the book is a good story and they do throw in some historical context to bridge the time leap gap, but so much of it seems like they're trying too hard.
The matter of the multiple Blackstaff's since Khelben's death to the current Waterdeep just makes me really salty. Tsarra Chaadren, Kyriani Agrivar, Krehlan Arunson (son of Khelben and Laeral), Ashemmon (Krehlan's best friend and although there is nothing in the book to suggest it, the name makes it seem painfully obvious he was the son of Sememmon and Ashemmi), and Samark Dhanzscul all claimed the title of Blackstaff in the intervening years. The book literally begins with Samark being killed in a seemingly simple ploy, leaving his apprentice Vajra Safahr to take up the mantle after him. Clearly it would be difficult to live up to Khelben's reputation as the original Blackstaff, although there is veiled references of Tsarra maintaining the illusion of still being Khelben until an occurrence of the Spellplague breaks the illusion, bringing all of Khelben's old enemies to Waterdeep over 2 years in attempts to seize his old power/secrets. The reference makes it sound like she put them all in their place as well.
The handling of Tsarra is another example of what drives me nuts about the "new Realms". Most of the people up in arms over the time leap and all the changes to FR going to 4e actually appreciated that character and accepted her assuming the role of the Blackstaff. This is because (my opinion of course) the story that told how it came about and the conclusion of Khelben's story/life was a worthy one that did credit to the history, secrets, and grandeur of the Realms and one of its greatest enduring characters. I would've loved to have read all of the events that occurred to Tsarra in her role of the Blackstaff. I think its ridiculous and a cheap way of making the new Realms after the Spellplague seem "dark and dangerous indeed" by just deciding that FIVE new Blackstaff's assumed the title and were subsequently killed within 105 years of the original. You're just told bits like that Reagar and Nameless sacrificed themselves to save Tsarra from an incident of magichaos from the Spellplague and continue on as a Haunting in a corrupted forest guarding a historic weapon of Waterdeep, Azuredge. The weapon is then given to one of the "new heroes" who the entire novel suggests is just a sell sword with some ethics until suddenly the weapon, once wielded by Lauroun former warlord of Waterdeep, has him reveal in a dream sequence some tattoo that got no previous mention in the book and it matches the family crest of Lauroun. Like I've said in other thread, the book is a good story and they do throw in some historical context to bridge the time leap gap, but so much of it seems like they're trying too hard.
Well, when you put it like that, you make it sound more unpleasant/undesirable than is it probably the case. Many players like famous NPCs because of who they are as characters. And not all "famous" NPCs are even of high level.
People like Mirt, Obould, Elaith (CRs 9-12) or even... The Steel Regent of Cormyr. Alusair is listed in the FRCS as being Ftr7/Rgr1/Prp2. She was a superb character and definitely not overleveled (in my opinion) for being the ruler of the country and avowed as one of the best military commanders (and fighters) in Cormyr.
Merrith: Thank you for sharing your thoughts--I appreciate it.
Agree/Disagree? I've always felt my opinion was biased because I only read the novels and never had the setting's rules and storylines affect any campaign or game.
Agree/Disagree? I've always felt my opinion was biased because I only read the novels and never had the setting's rules and storylines affect any campaign or game.
Not having read the book yet, I can't have too much of an opinion at this time, but...
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I agree that one thing I dislike about the 100 year time jump is how we never got to see a natural progression of the stories of characters we were only recently introduced to (like Tsarra):
Same here!
I was surprised when I first learned there were that many who had filled the position (although I will say it's not impossible), and once again, it's rather sad that we never got to hear their stories.
The handling of Tsarra is another example of what drives me nuts about the "new Realms". Most of the people up in arms over the time leap and all the changes to FR going to 4e actually appreciated that character and accepted her assuming the role of the Blackstaff. This is because (my opinion of course) the story that told how it came about and the conclusion of Khelben's story/life was a worthy one that did credit to the history, secrets, and grandeur of the Realms and one of its greatest enduring characters. I would've loved to have read all of the events that occurred to Tsarra in her role of the Blackstaff.
Same here!
I think its ridiculous and a cheap way of making the new Realms after the Spellplague seem "dark and dangerous indeed" by just deciding that FIVE new Blackstaff's assumed the title and were subsequently killed within 105 years of the original.
I was surprised when I first learned there were that many who had filled the position (although I will say it's not impossible), and once again, it's rather sad that we never got to hear their stories.
Not having read the book yet, I can't have too much of an opinion at this time, but...ShowI agree that one thing I dislike about the 100 year time jump is how we never got to see a natural progression of the stories of characters we were only recently introduced to (like Tsarra):
Same here!
I was surprised when I first learned there were that many who had filled the position (although I will say it's not impossible), and once again, it's rather sad that we never got to hear their stories.
Very much agreed...I will hold out some hope I guess. Still I'm resigned to the idea that some of the storylines were just cut off never to be heard from again.
Same here.
Out of curiosity, what happened to the supposed final book in Cunningham's Arilyn and Danilo series?
It was cancelled. Elaine couldn't manage to finish a manuscript (apparently the story she was trying to tell was problematic).
Also I'm curious if they will time leap other unfinished trilogies in their unpublished books such as the final two books of the Empyrean Odyssey by Thomas Reid, and the final book in the Twilight War series, Shadowrealm.
I'm pretty positive that the EO series was started with the Spellplague in mind--not sure how far in the future the story arc will end up. As for Shadowrealm? Not sure about that one either.
Actually checking out their website I notice another new release now for December beginning another new trioloy, the Abolethic Sovereignty. THAT is something a would like read about and it makes it sound like it takes place or at least starts in the semi recent aftermath of the Spellplague.
I have to admit, I have zero interest in reading those novels. I'm not keen on the Abolethic Sovereignty thing, based on what I know of it.
As for the new books, a fresh trilogy I might actually enjoy sinking my teeth into more than some "new world" version of my old favorites. Then again maybe I'm just really trying to be optimistic. Seems more and more like Khelben will have been the lucky one and actually had a proper send off.
Seems more and more like Khelben will have been the lucky one and actually had a proper send off.
-For once in his life, something went his way, poor guy.