Some might be easy as they have some presence in the realms (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Sorcerer, gnomes, half-orc, devas/aasimar). Some might be a bit harder like avengers, Invokers, shaman, wardens, and goliaths. How do you think all of these will work in the new fourth edition realms?
Invoker: See some discussion HERE
Shaman: Shaman already have presences in the Forgotten Realms, as "primitive" casters of Divine Magic.
Warden: ?
Goliath: Already have presences in the Forgotten Realms in some of the deserts across Faerûn, as per Depths of Madness.
Wardens (and barbarians) could likely be closely linked to druidic (or tribal) organisations, performing as their guardians. They could be common in ancient forrests in Aglarond, Tethyr, Rashemen and might walk alongside the tribesman of the north, the bedine, the nar or tuigan.
How do you think the new classes and races, as well as the other elements like rituals and the like, will be intregrated into the realms?
Some might be easy as they have some presence in the realms (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Sorcerer, gnomes, half-orc, devas/aasimar). Some might be a bit harder like avengers, Invokers, shaman, wardens, and goliaths. How do you think all of these will work in the new fourth edition realms?
Doesn't the Player's Guide have a section on the so-called 'lesser races'? That pretty well covers that.
Everything else is just a class, a set of skills and abilities. We already know FR has druids; warden, shaman, and barbarian are just permutations off that.
Avengers might be seen in the secret sects of multiple clergies in the realms. These divine assassins are mostly found amongst the faithfull of Cyric (Blackflame Zealots), Hoar (Hands of Fate), Eilistraee (Sworddancers), Selune (Lunar Hunters), Angharadh (Mhoarnathil), Sheverash (Order of the Black Arrow), Gruumsh (Bloody Spear order) and Shar (Dark Moon order).
Wardens (and barbarians) could likely be closely linked to druidic (or tribal) organisations, performing as their guardians. They could be common in ancient forrests in Aglarond, Tethyr, Rashemen and might walk alongside the tribesman of the north, the bedine, the nar or tuigan.
-So, Avengers are basically Paladins of any alignment/holy fighters/something to that effect, and Wardens are basically the same thing, but in a more primitive, less organized fashion?
Avengers might be seen in the secret sects of multiple clergies in the realms. These divine assassins are mostly found amongst the faithfull of Cyric (Blackflame Zealots), Hoar (Hands of Fate), Eilistraee (Sworddancers)...
Eilistraee's gone, remember?
Unless you want her in the game, of course.
Eilistraee lives! I prefer to disregard the War of the Spider Queen series. And Sworddancers are a one of the best examples of how a flavourful avenger could look like.
Aye, I have mixed up Cyric's order with those of Kossuth (as I used that prc for my greenfire wielding cyrisist assassin NPC's in a campaign to great effect). The Order of the Hidden Blade is cyric's canon religious assassin order. My bad.
Quinsareth from Bloodwalk is a nice example of an pursuit avenger of Hoar.
-Am I right or wrong in my understanding?
Not quite for Avengers. They have to share an alignment with their deity (good for Good, Lawful Good for LG), except the unaligned. The unaligned can worship any gods, due to the work making them disillusioned. Unaligned gods are more likely to have them as well.
They are the Warlock to the Paladin's Swordmage. A striker for the Divine.
Check out these link for the Avenger sneak peak:
Page One: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davethegame/3264017196/in/set-72157613512677768/
Page Two: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davethegame/3264016606/in/set-72157613512677768/
Home article:
http://www.critical-hits.com/2009/02/08/dungeons-dragons-at-new-york-comic-con-09/
Eilistraee lives! I prefer to disregard the War of the Spider Queen series. And Sworddancers are a one of the best examples of how a flavourful avenger could look like.
That's the spirit...
-So, Avengers are basically Paladins of any alignment/holy fighters/something to that effect, and Wardens are basically the same thing, but in a more primitive, less organized fashion?
Not really.
Avengers are more the "Holy wrath" sort of thing as opposed to Paladins, reflecting their different class roles (Paladins being defenders and Avengers strikers). Avengers are very big on pinning down or engaging a single enemy in combat (or chasing it everywhere it goes).
Wardens are more defenders of the wilds and similar, in fact you would probably think of them in a very similar kind of place and role as a druid (but with a different basis for how they defend their natural lands). Wardens and Avengers are not similar at all otherwise.
The Avenger is not a Paladin either in role or particular concept. Though saying they are a holy warrior is more correct.
The Avenger is not a Paladin either in role or particular concept. Though saying they are a holy warrior is more correct.
-Ultimatley, that is all that Paladins are/were in typical fantasy outlets: 'Holy Warriors', who are/were traditionally depicted Lawful Good.
-I'm still not fully getting 'Wardens', however. Martial Druids, with less of an emphasis on the spellcasting parts? Nature-oriented Barbarians, with "nature" powers to substitute the stereotypical Barbarian rages? Somewhere in-between?
-Ultimatley, that is all that Paladins are/were in typical fantasy outlets: 'Holy Warriors', who are/were traditionally depicted Lawful Good.
Paladins are typically viewed as paragons of good.
The Avenger gives more of the impression of being the seedy fellow who does all the churches dirty work they'd rather you not know about.
Nature-oriented Barbarians, with "nature" powers to substitute the stereotypical Barbarian rages? Somewhere in-between?
Yeah, more like that. They channel nature spirits for daily "stances" that give them extra effects for a while. But they are more martial, with a good amount of powers that just involve hitting people in the face particularly hard.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian (nearly the same but are now tied into being worshipers of nature in a similar manner to druids)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bard (less about being merry and sing-songy happy and more about being charismatic leaders who are often sly tricksters as well)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Druid (much the same but with heavier emphasis on spellcasting and shapeshifting)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Invoker (lore-wise they're pretty much Favored Souls, though mechanics-wise they're actually pretty different in some ways)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shaman (already existed as Spirit Shamans)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer (changes exist; though obviously the class existed previously)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Warden (think druids with a heavier emphasis on fighting)
No previews of the Avenger are not available yet (and aren't likely to become available since PHB2 debuts next month) but my guess, based on what was leaked earlier and what I've heard since D&D Experience is much what others have already said.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not knocking you for posting wiki links, I'm just teasing b/c LK seems to really dislike wikipedia. :D
Angharadh (Mhoarnathil).
Where did you find information on the Mhoarnathil? I never heard of them. I know there hasn't been much info on Angharadh.
I'm just waiting for LK to come around and speak about the folly of using Wikipedia. :D
EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not knocking you for posting wiki links, I'm just teasing b/c LK seems to really dislike wikipedia. :D
-Only because it's wrong a lot. Other than that, I love Wikipedia, and consult it practically every day.
Where did you find information on the Mhoarnathil? I never heard of them. I know there hasn't been much info on Angharadh.
-They are Undead Hunters (literally translated from Elven, 'Corruption Bane'), a kit in the 2e Complete Book of Elves, updated into 3e in Elves of Faerûn. They've been associated with Sehanine Moonbow, however.
Damn shame Rasheman isn't a playable region in LFR. Oh well. Soon as the game with my old gaming group on Battlegrounds is up and running, I'll probably end up playing a Rashemani character in that game (Can't decide between Warden, Barbarian, or Druid). Either that or a Genasi Warlord (I really like the idea of playing a cowardly warrior who hangs back from the fighting and directs others to do the fighting. Then when the fighting's done, he has to explain to the other adventurers why he deserves a share of the loot when he didn't actually do anything).
-I'm still not fully getting 'Wardens', however. Martial Druids, with less of an emphasis on the spellcasting parts? Nature-oriented Barbarians, with "nature" powers to substitute the stereotypical Barbarian rages? Somewhere in-between?
These're all the "parts" of the Warden class.
1) He's a tough warrior. He's got more hit points than any other class, and has the same weapon proficiencies as a Paladin, but only wears hide armor and uses a heavy shield. Despite that, though, the Warden can still get comparable AC to the Fighter and Paladin due to a class feature.
2) They're very nature-oriented, and their skill selection reflects this, with skills like Nature, Perception, Dungeoneering, etc.
3) Their connection to nature allows them to use natural magic to augment their already nasty hand-to-hand skills. Some of those spells involve drawing power from the earth and boosting their capabilities, while others have effects like summoning spectral vines and such to grasp at their foes, reaching up at them from the ground or through their weapon.
4) They're partial shapeshifters. Unlike Druids, who can fully assume the shape of an animal, Wardens can only assume a partial hybrid form. But they're not limited to animal forms, and can assume forms which reflect any aspect of nature, like plant life or even the weather.There's "Form of the Fearsom Ram", which results in the Warden growing horns and hooves. Then there's "Form of the Relentless Panther", in which the Warden grows fangs and his body is covered in fur. There's also "Form of the Willow Sentinel", in which the Warden's skin turns to bark, and "Form of Winter's Herald", as the Warden is covered in ice and a layer of frost surrounds his feet. All these Forms can be maintained for some time and give the Warden additional abilities.
That pretty much sums up the Warden from the preview. He's a tough, primitive warrior who knows some nature magic to make him an even fiercer warrior, and who can also, on occasion, shift into a hybrid form and make himself even more dangerous. They're the protectors of primitive tribes and champions of nature, tasked with protecting nature from anything unnatural.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bard (less about being merry and sing-songy happy and more about being charismatic leaders who are often sly tricksters as well)
Having read the link, it doesn't seem like the 4E bard is all that different in concept from the 3E bard (for example, bards in the past weren't necessarily about being "merry and sing-songy happy").
I'm just waiting for LK to come around and speak about the folly of using Wikipedia. :D
These particular pages do have some dubious qualities--whoever wrote them seems to be infatuated with the concept of "iconic characters of the Realms" and makes the mistake of thinking that being a popular and well-known character among fans means that character must be equally well-known within the setting, and probably the best skilled of their profession to boot (ie. Storm Silverhand was the greatest bard, Wulfgar probably the greatest barbarian, and other eye-rolling lines like that).
'The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden,' good grief.
These are deep problems in that site that can't be fixed by the odd bit of helpful editing, and which unfortunately make it a not-very-useful way of referencing Realmslore.
...use of 'eladrin' over 'elf' (what present are these pages working from?)...
-1,479 DR. Rich Baker's told us (maybe Chris Perkins?) that Eladrin is what all WotC products are going to refer to them as from now on.
'The most famous of all Toril's rangers is by far the legendary drow Drizzt Do'Urden,' good grief.
-Only from a metagame perspective, and then it works out.
-1,479 DR. Rich Baker's told us (maybe Chris Perkins?) that Eladrin is what all WotC products are going to refer to them as from now on.
I'm talking about forgottenrealms.wikia.com, whose 'is' sometimes refers to the 15th-century Realms, sometimes the 14th-century.
-Only from a metagame perspective, and then it works out.
Well, so do statements I disagree with if I mentally add 'not', but that's not what's meant by the site or what uninformed readers will take from it.
Eilistraee lives! I prefer to disregard the War of the Spider Queen series. And Sworddancers are a one of the best examples of how a flavourful avenger could look like.
I believe you meant the Lady Penitent series - I read WotSQ, I don't really remember Eilistraee being involved (although some of her clergy were).
And yes, DO SO dis-regard LP... it is an abomination.
I'm talking about forgottenrealms.wikia.com, whose 'is' sometimes refers to the 15th-century Realms, sometimes the 14th-century.
-Oh, I thought you were talking about WotC books/articles.
-Yes, the Forgotten Realms Wikipedia is a mess. It doesn't know if it's coming or going. It uses 2e, 3e, and 4e terminology all at different points, and then uses 4e terminology exclusively at certain points.
I don't have much to add here, being unfamiliar with the PHB II, buuut....
I believe you meant the Lady Penitent series - I read WotSQ, I don't really remember Eilistraee being involved (although some of her clergy were).
And yes, DO SO dis-regard LP... it is an abomination.
I will have to agree with ya - I am a HUGE Lolth/drow fan but I also was VERY disappointed in the LP series especially the ending. I didn't kind Eli dying but I was annoyed how Corellon reacted to it....umm...like NO reaction at all.
I will have to agree with ya - I am a HUGE Lolth/drow fan but I also was VERY disappointed in the LP series especially the ending. I didn't kind Eli dying but I was annoyed how Corellon reacted to it....umm...like NO reaction at all.
-30,000 or so years does that to you. 30,000 years ago, Corellon Larethian dared Vhaeraun to lay a single finger on her, and see what happens. Nowadays, he's tired, he sick of them all, whatever. :P
Having read the link, it doesn't seem like the 4E bard is all that different in concept from the 3E bard (for example, bards in the past weren't necessarily about being "merry and sing-songy happy").
I'm not going to disagree with you, because I think you're right. But that's an impression alot of people had and the reason alot of people figured bards weren't any fun. 4e has put their other qualities right, front, and center, to the point of actually deemphasizing their part as musicians and performers.
-30,000 or so years does that to you. 30,000 years ago, Corellon Larethian dared Vhaeraun to lay a single finger on her, and see what happens. Nowadays, he's tired, he sick of them all, whatever. :P
Corellon....his girlfriend turns out to be another goddess in disguise, his kids die, 2 more members of the Seldarine turn out to be impostors.....what does he do? He plays chess....
-30,000 or so years does that to you. 30,000 years ago, Corellon Larethian dared Vhaeraun to lay a single finger on her, and see what happens. Nowadays, he's tired, he sick of them all, whatever. :P
I think he's still confused about finding out half his wife was really a human Goddess!
Then he found-out Arvandor didn't even exit, and that there is no such thing as racial dieties!
His mind is realing after that one... whats he going to tell Khelben?
I think he's still confused about finding out half his wife was really a human Goddess!
Then he found-out Arvandor didn't even exit, and that there is no such thing as racial dieties!
-He probably also forgot that he is ♂ + ♀ androgynous (just found out how to use those symbols, so I figured I'd use them).
-I don't know how to steer that response towards the Player's Handbook II stuff in the Forgotten Realms, but let's pretend that I did, and head back in that direction!
They are tougher than 4th ed bards, but very much team players: their own damage output isn't that big.
Gomez
Classes by role:
Controllers: Druid (Primal), Invoker (Divine), Wizard (Arcane)
Defender Fighter (Martial), Paladin (Divine), Swordmage (Arcane), Warden (Primal)
Leader Bard (Arcane), Cleric (Divine), Shaman (Primal), Warlord (Martial)
Striker Avenger (Divine), Barbarian (Primal),Ranger (Martial), Rogue (Martial), Sorcerer (Arcane), Warlock (Arcane)
For Races we have:
Devas, Dragonborn, Drow, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Genasi, Gnome, Goliath, Half-elf, Half-orc, Halfling, Human, Shifter, Tiefling
So it is possible to have a part with all four roles covered by Arcane powers or Divine powers or Primal powers.
We will also be getting racial paragon classes (Like the Genasi ones in the FRPG), more class paragon classes, more magical rituals and perhaps some magical items. It also brings up the idea of elements to build up background from the excerts from the Wizard site. Any opinions on those news flashes from WotC?
Wizard Previews for PHB2:
Racial Paragons:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090216
Backgrounds:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090220
Class Paragons:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090223
How does Core handle divine organisations up untill now. Which god "teams" are worshipped by Invokers? Or is it all the gods they follow? Can you give an example of a paragon or epic level utility power for an Invoker?
I was in the beginning of the Avenger, but I can answer some of your Invoker Questions. Not sure of religious team question. But Invoker's favour one god, and yet has few ill will to other gods who are not 'in the way'. To quote I believe Joannie Mitchel, "The see both sides of gods now."
There is a tendacy to favour older deities over newer ones or older ways of worship. To use the realms as an example... A handful of Invokers would worship Midnight, more would worship Gargos and a huge number would worship Selune. Invokers of Tymora would also respect Beshaba as aspects of Tyche.
Walk between Worlds (Utility 16)
-- A ranged ability which can cause the caster or an ally to phase until your next turn, but can be sustained with minor effort.
Invoke Angelic Form (Utility 22)
-- A ranged ability which grants you or your ally the ability to fly (8) and can hover until the end of encounter.
Paragons:
One based on control necromantic power.
One based on becoming more like an angel.
One based using fiery and radiant powers which gives boost to allies.
One based becoming like a weapon created by Kord and Mordin against the Primorials as a weapon of vengeance. Thunder powers.
These are just reading scans, might detail them more later.
Student of the Seven has two powers lifted from the realms as well. Anyspell and Voice of the Seven, anyone?
Is the Monk Class in the PHB2? Its one of my favorites, and I really wanted to see which way they went with it.
Thanks - Mark
Quick question (and NO, I'm not baiting):
Is the Monk Class in the PHB2? Its one of my favorites, and I really wanted to see which way they went with it.
Thanks - Mark
Nope. The monk is still MIA.
There have been two versions from third parties, neither entirely convincing to me. Expeditious Retreat Press with the Advanced Players Guide provide the Martial Artist (plus versions of Druid, Barbarian, Bard and Illusionist), and Goodman Games with Forgotten Heroes include a Monk (plus Druid, Barbarian and Bard).
Neither do it for me although one of the people I play with like the Goodman Games versions of the classes.
Ki striker to be Previewed May 30th on DDI (I think, have to check editor notes) and likely be in PBH3.
Interesting, all Primals have a striker element. Likely with the idea of animals being striker hunters or at least the big cats which are common in the builds.
Interesting, all Primals have a striker element. Likely with the idea of animals being striker hunters or at least the big cats which are common in the builds.
I guess being a "filter feeder" or "grazer" type class just wouldn't be as exciting.
I guess being a "filter feeder" or "grazer" type class just wouldn't be as exciting.
Actually with more reading, it seems to pick animals with some kind of weaponry like Bears, Big cats, Rams, Stags and etc.
Note of the Thread:
The Sorcerer's Chaos Build has an interesting option where rolling an even (and/or rarely an odd) number has some bonus effect to their build powers. This could be adapted to Luck based Deities like Tymora, Tyche and Beshaba.
Actually with more reading, it seems to pick animals with some kind of weaponry like Bears, Big cats, Rams, Stags and etc.
I can't believe they left out cone snails.
Nope. The monk is still MIA.
Monk at this moment:
Ki striker to be Previewed May 30th on DDI (I think, have to check editor notes) and likely be in PBH3.
Thanks for the info, guys.
Instead of a bonus being selected for you by the editors, you can choose your own benefit with DM approval. It is like a reward for role playing up some background for story hooks. Each idea has it's own link skill or two.
You either:
A) Gain a +2 bonus to the skill
B) Gain the skill as a class skill.
C) Add a language known
d) Add regional feat like in FRPG
They brake down to:
Geogrpahical: Environment around your birth, from deserts to cities
Society: You economical level from birth (Poor, Wealthy, Noble)
Birth: An odd fluke of birth like a dwarf raised by elves, Omens,
Prophecies, Curses, Blessings, Being born on another plane like
the Feywild.
Occupation: You pre-adventurer job both legal and illegal.
Racial: At least two quirks unique to each race used in FRPG (save
Genasi), PB, PB2
It also allows you to gain a bonus on skill checks and other roles linked to your past. It also helps in non-rules covered areas like knowing how to make a living as a blacksmith if you were that before adventuring. It also add links to people for hooks.
I can't believe they left out cone snails.
-One of the most venomous species on Earth.
...by the re-used art of the Srinshee on page 26 in the "Shiere Knight" Eladrin racial paragon path.
Still looking through the rest of it for interesting tidbits.
Hmm, I wonder why they keep reusing artwork?
I really wish I knew, dear Lady.
As for the rest of it, the new options are interesting but definitely core. As far as I can see the only setting tie-in is mentioning that Backgrounds exist in the FR PG too.
What does this tell me? I think that any of the "How to use this race/class in " material will be in DDI.
Oh. Goody.
Hmm, I wonder why they keep reusing artwork?
It reduces cost. Artwork can get pretty expensive, especially full color artwork.
Also, the FR market is much smaller than the standard D&D market, so artwork that is old-hat to FR fans may have not been seen at all by people in the standard D&D market.
----
On Backgrounds, the ones in the PHB2 are weaker than the ones in the FRPG.
It reduces cost. Artwork can get pretty expensive, especially full color artwork.
True enough I suppose. I did notice that this retails for about 20 of our English Pounds (;))... the same as the PHB which is significantly longer and with, presumably, more artwork?
On Backgrounds, the ones in the PHB2 are weaker than the ones in the FRPG.
I couldn't agree more. I really couldn't.
As for the rest of it, the new options are interesting but definitely core. As far as I can see the only setting tie-in is mentioning that Backgrounds exist in the FR PG too.
It's a core book. There shouldn't be setting specific material (beyond whatever core stuff they choose to stick in there) in it.
What does this tell me? I think that any of the "How to use this race/class in " material will be in DDI.
There isn't any requirement for this, because the FRCG/FRPG already anticipated the PHB II races and the classes are nothing particularly zany that would expect to require write ups specifically for FR. Wardens occupy the same sort of niche as Druids for example, Invokers would fill the same sort of role that Paladins do (but for many Gods) etc.
What I would like from a DDI article would be realms specific paragon pathways for these classes. That would be handy, but there is nothing that can't really be used almost as is, with maybe a couple of exceptions.
It's a core book. There shouldn't be setting specific material (beyond whatever core stuff they choose to stick in there) in it.
Since there are to be no more (planned) setting books (at this point in time) is the logical place to cover this material not in the core book in a sidebar rather than making it DDI or even not including it at all?
There isn't any requirement for this, because the FRCG/FRPG already anticipated the PHB II races...
True enough, but those in the PHB III? or IV? I am looking at the long view here.
...and the classes are nothing particularly zany that would expect to require write ups specifically for FR. Wardens occupy the same sort of niche as Druids for example, Invokers would fill the same sort of role that Paladins do (but for many Gods) etc.
I do disagree here. I would have liked to see setting tie-ins for these new classes. Possible background locations that these classes may be the most common, organisational or governmental allegiances or antagonisms. i.e. something to make the classes feel like they are a part of the setting. At the moment it feels list a list of tacked on options that are irrelevant to the wider setting.
Sidebars, or material simply incorporated in place where appropriate. For example, I'm working on Divine Power right now. We're including domain lists for the FR pantheon in a table right next to the core pantheon. So it's more in the line of little nuggets as the opportunity presents.
We haven't been doing anything formal or completist like the "In Faerun..." bits after monster entries that we had in 3e, but I think those were of questionable value, to be honest. They were often written by folks who had very little Realms expertise, and rarely seemed to offer a really compelling "hook" appropriate to the setting.
Since there are to be no more (planned) setting books (at this point in time) is the logical place to cover this material not in the core book in a sidebar rather than making it DDI or even not including it at all?
But consider what happens when they have multiple settings. Now you need a sidebar for Eberron, then Dark Sun, then Planescape and so on and such forth. Ultimately wasting a lot of space in a book that shouldn't be wasting space and should be adding new content.
Which the PHBII is remarkably good at (pleasingly for once!).
True enough, but those in the PHB III? or IV? I am looking at the long view here.
Same thing goes when you're spending tons of pages in a core book explaining things for each campaign setting specifically.
I do disagree here. I would have liked to see setting tie-ins for these new classes.
Which takes space away from new content.
And then has to be repeated for Eberron.
And Dark Sun
And Planescape
and etc for X new campaign setting every year.
Possible background locations that these classes may be the most common, organisational or governmental allegiances or antagonisms.
Reading the PHBII, I do not believe any of this is particularly useful or exceptional. None of these classes IMO requires specific explanation in the realms and have relatively obvious roles. As they don't require exceptional explanation, just as none of the PHB ones really do either and I don't think a sidebar would be warranted.
If they make something truly absurd or weird, then I would think such explanations are required. There is nothing exceptional about:
Avengers: Church assassins/inquisitorial types. Easy to fit into a huge host of different Gods in FR with little to no work.
Bards: Already existent. I fail to see how anyone would need anything to implement Bards.
Barbarians: Already existent, they can come from any border area or similar. Icewind Dale, Rasheman (in fact, Rasheman is the best catch all answer to primal class origins in general), Beastlands and such forth.
Warden: A more martial Druid and most people would probably mistake Wardens for Druids
Druid: Already existent and would have the same origins and positions in Faerun as Druids. I don't believe to your average person in Faerun the difference between a Warden and Druid would really be all that remarkable.
Sorcerer: Already existent. No different than Sorcerers in the past in terms of position and similar.
Shaman: Already existent (Though the new 4E class is different to previous Shamans), see Druid above.
Invoker: More or less a Cleric that serves a pantheon instead of a specific God (and even Gods they don't worship they give at least lip service towards). They are possibly the only class difficult to write into the realms, because the core cosmology is focused around the Gods vs. Primordials aspect, not something that is the particular focus of the 4E realms. As mentioned, I believe if any of them require any explanation it would be the Invoker but this class wouldn't be worth a sidebar by itself.
I don't view sidebars as useful or even required for anything this [relatively] simple to write in. As LK points out, Divine Power could definitely use it because FR has a strong focus on Gods and would require such a sidebar. PHB II does not IMO fall into the "Where appropriate" aspect, but Divine Power does. Eberron probably wouldn't need such a sidebar, because while faiths are emphasized in that setting, Gods themselves are not. So page space is being used wisely and material that is not useful for the majority of DMs is not taking up space.
But consider what happens when they have multiple settings. Now you need a sidebar for Eberron, then Dark Sun, then Planescape and so on and such forth. Ultimately wasting a lot of space in a book that shouldn't be wasting space and should be adding new content.
Seeing as you seem to be most worried about the space aspect of things, here is a few facts for you.
PHB = 320 pages. RRP £20 ($34.95)
PHB II = 224 pages. RRP £20 ($34.95)
So we are paying the same price for 94 pages less of "new content". True, this time we aren't paying for the rules but are you really making the case that a few pages, which is all that setting support for at least the currently published settings would amount to, would mean that they would have to cut content elsewhere?
Logically that might only be the case if the PHB was ridiculously underpriced (page per dollar) in the first place, wouldn't it?
Reading the PHBII, I do not believe any of this is particularly useful or exceptional. None of these classes IMO requires specific explanation in the realms and have relatively obvious roles. As they don't require exceptional explanation, just as none of the PHB ones really do either and I don't think a sidebar would be warranted.
Who's talking about "required"? I am making the suggestion that I (the only person I am really qualified to talk about) would like to see tie-ins because they would make me feel that the class (career path, school of training etc. in game terms) is a part of the world I am trying to use it in.
For example, Bards already feel like they are part of the world because we have all seen them, heard about them, from novels, narrative sidebars or from external sources that show us Bards in a similar context. It is as you say:
Bards: Already existent. I fail to see how anyone would need anything to implement Bards.
So why not take the few lines to say what you have already said? It can't hurt and it might certainly help someone. Especially if they are new to the setting and do not have the benefit of your experience with it. Isn't that who these books are being pitched at now?
So we are paying the same price for 94 pages less of "new content". True, this time we aren't paying for the rules but are you really making the case that a few pages, which is all that setting support for at least the currently published settings would amount to, would mean that they would have to cut content elsewhere?
Yes. Remove the rules sections and other things from the original PHB and you get fairly close to the page count of PHB2 (Though a bit higher). Supplements usually have less page count than the original books (and have done since forever in my experience). So spending more time on new content is better than wastefully using space (IMO) on things that are pretty much already justified, in a book that is naturally going to get less page space than those that precede it.
I see no reason for this again, because there is nothing exceptionally out of place about the PHB II classes. It's non-required information that is cutting page space down from a book that we already knew would have a lot less space than the first PHB.
The only class in the entire book that even slightly demands anything like this is the invoker, because the invoker is based heavily in the core cosmologies Gods vs. Primordials set up (which isn't anywhere near as emphasised in FR). Even then, this is fairly simple to write in anyway given the basic descriptions of how they function in core generally work in FR anyway.
Who's talking about "required"? I am making the suggestion that I (the only person I am really qualified to talk about) would like to see tie-ins because they would make me feel that the class (career path, school of training etc. in game terms) is a part of the world I am trying to use it in.
This is a fair enough comment, but I can't see how you can't easily do this yourself with just the FRCG/FRPG. A class that made you a gibbering sentient abberation for example that drools acid and have psionic farts would demand specific explanation.
So why not take the few lines to say what you have already said?
The core description for bards works perfectly with switching the odd deity.
Same with nearly every class, again pointing out the Invoker as the exception because of the difference in core theme vs. FRs theme.
So spending more time on new content is better than wastefully using space (IMO) on things that are pretty much already justified, in a book that is naturally going to get less page space than those that precede it.
...while charging the same money for it. And I am not looking for class justification here. I am not looking for "Why is this class in the Realms", see below for what I am looking for.
This is a fair enough comment, but I can't see how you can't easily do this yourself with just the FRCG/FRPG. A class that made you a gibbering sentient abberation for example that drools acid and have psionic farts would demand specific explanation.
This seems to be a justification argument again, I am not looking for Wizards to Justify classes. I want WotC to sit down and say "Ok, what flavour will make someone want to play this class in this setting?" Since the Core/Setting mechanical divide doesn't seem to exist anymore there is little or no need, as you have said, to spend time Justifying classes. If your DM agrees with yuor choices then all is well and good... but what makes you go "Holy troupe of unicycling badgers, Batman! I really like this class! I must immediately go forth and purchase my DMs favourite cookie/spirit/country as a bribe!"?
Now I have a confession to make, I am no longer novels only in D&D. That's right, last night Iluvrien sat down and actually played 4E... with other human beings... and beer. And you know what? Mechanically I liked it, it felt a bit clunky around the edges but that may well have been first-rules syndrome and it didn't get in my way of my enjoyment of the game mechanically.
What I did find though was that after about 5 minutes I was pretty much screaming for a more flavourful approach. As the game was a one-shot with pre-gens, that wasn't appropriate for the length of time we had but it did highlight one important point... what makes a class interesting to me is not its bonuses, powers or even internal flavour, it is its place in the world around it.
Using the Bard as an example... who are the famous Bards that I might of heard of or aspire to be? where are the great centres of Bardic tradition or pilgrimage? Are bards well looked upon in the world/area? Are there particular clothes or mannerisms associated with people on that career path? All of these things apply to a specific class in a specific setting and they change from setting to setting. This is the kind of information that does not seem to appear much in the lore-lite FRPG but could be used to reel people in from core into the Realms (or other setting) if placed in the right books there. Advertise the worlds and the classes a bit more, make it feel more coherent.
True enough I suppose. I did notice that this retails for about 20 of our English Pounds (;))... the same as the PHB which is significantly longer and with, presumably, more artwork?
The core rulebooks (PHB1, DMG1, and MM1) sell more copies than any other book in any edition of D&D. Therefore, they can afford to eat the costs of beefing them up more, because they sell a significantly greater amount of copies, as well as doing larger print-runs (which reduce the per-unit cost for manufacturing the book).
Now I have a confession to make, I am no longer novels only in D&D.
Congratulations.;) Not that there's anything wrong with being "novels only", I just think it's fun to get a chance to play the game, too.
...while charging the same money for it. And I am not looking for class justification here. I am not looking for "Why is this class in the Realms", see below for what I am looking for.
This seems to be a justification argument again, I am not looking for Wizards to Justify classes. I want WotC to sit down and say "Ok, what flavour will make someone want to play this class in this setting?" Since the Core/Setting mechanical divide doesn't seem to exist anymore there is little or no need, as you have said, to spend time Justifying classes. If your DM agrees with yuor choices then all is well and good... but what makes you go "Holy troupe of unicycling badgers, Batman! I really like this class! I must immediately go forth and purchase my DMs favourite cookie/spirit/country as a bribe!"?
Now I have a confession to make, I am no longer novels only in D&D. That's right, last night Iluvrien sat down and actually played 4E... with other human beings... and beer. And you know what? Mechanically I liked it, it felt a bit clunky around the edges but that may well have been first-rules syndrome and it didn't get in my way of my enjoyment of the game mechanically.
What I did find though was that after about 5 minutes I was pretty much screaming for a more flavourful approach. As the game was a one-shot with pre-gens, that wasn't appropriate for the length of time we had but it did highlight one important point... what makes a class interesting to me is not its bonuses, powers or even internal flavour, it is its place in the world around it.
Using the Bard as an example... who are the famous Bards that I might of heard of or aspire to be? where are the great centres of Bardic tradition or pilgrimage? Are bards well looked upon in the world/area? Are there particular clothes or mannerisms associated with people on that career path? All of these things apply to a specific class in a specific setting and they change from setting to setting. This is the kind of information that does not seem to appear much in the lore-lite FRPG but could be used to reel people in from core into the Realms (or other setting) if placed in the right books there. Advertise the worlds and the classes a bit more, make it feel more coherent.
Many of the realms tomes of the previous edition hold these examples (at least for classes which existed then. So Warlocks, Warlords, Avengers, Invokers, Shaman and Wardens are not that common). People on these boards can give you examples. For the Bard you have examples like Storm and Danilo Thann and academies like New Olmn (sp?).
For post plague, it's harder. Yet at Candlekeep, you can go to the source. You can ask the creator of the Forgotten Realms, Ed Greenwood, who specializes in this kind of fluffy lore. He is limited with time, the hundreds of questions asked before you, Non-disclosure agreements and other issues. Yet he does weave a good tale and image of what you can do with regard to the realms.
The core rulebooks (PHB1, DMG1, and MM1) sell more copies than any other book in any edition of D&D. Therefore, they can afford to eat the costs of beefing them up more, because they sell a significantly greater amount of copies, as well as doing larger print-runs (which reduce the per-unit cost for manufacturing the book).
I thought this one might rear its ugly head (the concept, Mourn, not you). I had a nasty suspicion that this might be the cause of it. Reasonable even if I don't like it much. I'll concede to space being a valid consideration then ;). I still think this stuff useful enough to be given some of this space though.
Congratulations.;) Not that there's anything wrong with being "novels only", I just think it's fun to get a chance to play the game, too.
Thanks, enough people were asking about trying 4E on our City's game group discussion areas that they set up a mini 4E-day and ran a 1 shot at multiple tables for all comers. It was nice but now it makes me want more... something that isn't likely yet. As for there being nothing wrong with being "novels only" here, well, I always got a sense of there being a "Well, you wouldn't say that if you actually played" undercurrent to things.
Many of the realms tomes of the previous edition hold these examples (at least for classes which existed then. So Warlocks, Warlords, Avengers, Invokers, Shaman and Wardens are not that common). People on these boards can give you examples. For the Bard you have examples like Storm and Danilo Thann and academies like New Olmn (sp?).
Thanks HVulpes, but I wasn't so much looking for specific examples as I was suggesting that classes in general should be grounded more in the settings they can be applied to in an effort to inspire people to play them... and play them with enthusiasm. I tend to not bother Ed on my own account, I just read his answers to other people's questions and enjoy those tidbits as they come.
*ducks, runs*
See, now you wouldn't be saying any of that if you actually played.... :P
I was going to make that point....
:embarrass
) Avengers might be seen in the secret sects of multiple clergies in the realms. These divine assassins are mostly found amongst the faithfull of ... Eilistraee (Sworddancers)....
As for the Primal classes, everything but Warden has a tried and true role in FR, so the Warden fits in (again as Suin says) the protectors of Druids, and shammans, as well as the tribes, like the Barbarian.
Wardens (and barbarians) could likely be closely linked to druidic (or tribal) organisations, performing as their guardians. They could be common in ancient forrests in Aglarond, Tethyr, Rashemen and might walk alongside the tribesman of the north, the bedine, the nar or tuigan.
April 6th will have a playtest for PHB3. It will be on Dual Classing.
BWAH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
So, they brought back an Advanced D&D (2E) ruleset for the NEW 4th Edition?
This gets better and better... :evillaugh
It is also a playtest which means the 4E players can talk to the designers on the forums and offer their opinions on what works and what does not. I think this has worked for the artificer class. Some of that classes game mechanics have been altered after a few months of playtesting.
And don't often find all the ways stuff can be broken with enough effort and obtuse reasoning... damn those optimizers.
Yep. When I mean unbalance I am talking about by the gamer that is not an optimizer but picks the class that still seems to trump other classes (3Es wiz/clr/drd) even by accident. He/she then runs around outshining the other pcs mechanically while the others try and keep up.
You can rationalize anything, but the fact is they are realizing the new ruleset has very little staying-power, and now they are trying to bring back the one thing that sold all those core books back in 'broken' 3e (feats and PrCs - the 'meat & potatoes' of the mult-classing optimizer).
I personally think a classless system was the way to go (and I could make a joke right there). Every class ability should be turned into a Feat, and then divide the Feats into Primary, Secondary, and Racial, allowing a PC to get one every level (rotating between the three).
THAT would be the ultimate in customization and balance; if everyone has the same choices, then there is no-need to build-in artifical rules for balancing, except for races.
I'm working on something like that right now, and I'm just awaiting Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might from Paizo, because I need to make a twenty-level spell progression to make the system viable, and Monte has aready done the heavy-lifting for me.
On the other hand, I'm sorely tempted to build a magic-system from scratch... but thats a LOT of work. It may be worth it though... especially if I customize it for my own setting.
I've always (since OD&D) hand-tailored the rules to meet my own expectations, with tons of house-rules and stuff adapted from other games and settings. I did this because it was just easier to modify an existing ruleset then create my own. Maybe it's time I just take the plunge...
Its not like I have anything better to do these days.... :embarrass
I personally think a classless system was the way to go (and I could make a joke right there). Every class ability should be turned into a Feat, and then divide the Feats into Primary, Secondary, and Racial, allowing a PC to get one every level (rotating between the three).
-I do this, but class abilities gained from feats are lesser than their class-derived equivalents. For example, characters who get the ability to Sneak Attack from the Sneak Attack feat get an extra +1d4 points of damage, as opposed to the normal +1d6.
Ideally (and I've been putting a lot of thought into this), a character would have to take levels in 'apptitudes', which would determine at what level his characer would function in a certain class.
In other words, a character who was level three in 'stealth' would get the thief's level three ability for hiding and moving silently. He would need levels in something completly different (Treachery? Skullduggery?) in oder to get bonuses to backstab (and perhaps posioning). He would also need levels in 'acrobatics' to get bonuses to things like evasion and tight-rope walking.
Ergio, a person could completely customize his character to become the 'ultimate thief', or the 'ultimate Assassin', r jus pick-up a few abilites to help them with other things (liek fighting, or casting spells).
This, of course, would require a complete re-build of the skill and Feat system (the two would need to be more directly inter-related), as well as dividing the magical schools into 'paths' (Feat progressions) that PCs could follow (you don't learn individual spells - you reach 'plateaus' in your magical knowledge and gain spell-abilties automatically).
Like I said, its something I've been toying-with and working towards for quite some time - I already have a list of the attributes, apptitudes, and skills I would want. I may have quite a lot of time on my hands soon with no computer available, so I may work on it then.