Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 senko Oct 05, 2010 19:04:56	I just found out about the wall of the faithless, those who don't worship a specific deitiy get dumped in there, and I was wondering how that would work out with an eastern culture like Kara-Tur's meant to be. Take Shintoism specifically what happens to a person who worships a lot of gods e.g. god of the river, goddess of the mountain, god of agriculture equally and is perfectly aware that there's thousands of others who they regard as equally worthy of worship and would be perfectly happy to do so if they were in that area/had a need of that god's intervention when they die. Do they get to choose who's realm they go into, do they get chucked into the wall of the faithless or do they have their own different afterlife with different rules? If a different afterlife what happens to a traeller who dies in say Baldur's Gate do they still get that afterlife or do they get the wall because they died in the west?
#2 gray_richardson Oct 06, 2010 8:30:07	Everyone who dies on Toril, perhaps in all of Realmspace, goes to the Fugue Plane, to await collection by their patron deity (or an agent, thereof). Now, if they have worshiped multiple gods, but have not picked a specific god, there are a couple of schools of thought (maybe more).  It is thought that in their heart, they have some preference, some god they favor over all others. Maybe its unconscious, maybe the preference is slight. But some believe that god becomes your patron. My own theory is that you can have multiple patrons.  That would mean that you would be approachable by any of the agents of any of your patrons in the Fugue Plane.  So who ever gets to you first can ask you to come with them.  And you could say no. You could pass on that agent and wait for another.  At some point, either an agent (angel, fiend, paragon, psychopomp, whatever) would come along that you decide to go with, OR if you dally too long, you are called to the City of Judgment and Kelemvor would sort things out. Only an agent of your patron god can come to collect you. But allowing a soul to have 2 or more patrons doesn't really violate the rules.  It just determines which god's agents have access to approach you while you are waiting in the Fugue.
#3 senko Oct 06, 2010 21:02:53	I see thanks and what about those who believe in re-incarnation or that all your ancestor's go to an afterlife for humans. Sure they are gods out there but you don't get to go where they are because every group has their own realm. One for humans, one for spirit beings, one for gods etc.
#4 gray_richardson Oct 07, 2010 22:02:15	You don't get to choose your afterlife, just a patron deity. The patron deity can do what he likes with your soul. It is possible, I suppose, that some of the Eastern gods will reincarnate you. I don't know of any, but I am not an expert on the Kara-Tur pantheons. In 3e, Kara-Tur did not have an astral, or its astral looked markedly different.  It had a "spirit world" in lieu of an Astral Plane.  This was never delved into in 3e lore. But the "spirit world" seemed extremely similar to the 4e description of the Feywild. My own theory is that the Imaskari did some kind of epic magic over Kara-Tur, one of their god barriers, that disconnected or shielded the entire continent of Kara-Tur from access (direct access at least) to the Astral Plane.  We are told that the gods of the Celestial Bureaucracy lived in a divine realm(s) attached to the Spirit World. So what I believe is that Kara-Tur's Spirit World was actually the part of the Feywild that was coterminous with Kara-Tur.  Many of the gods of Kara-Tur may in actuality be more properly described as Arch-Fey.  Alternatively, some of the Gods of Kara-Tur may have lived in the Astral, but connected their realms to the Feywild by means of portals, and since the Feywild still maintained a connection to Kara-Tur, the gods of Kara-Tur could do an end-around the Imaskari god-barrier by linking through the Feywild--in similar fashion to the way that the Germans in WWII bypassed the impregnable Maginot Line defending the border of France from Germany by going around it and invading France by way of Belgium. Now back to your question about groups having their own gods; anyone can worship any god.  A dwarf can worship Corellon, and an Orc can worship Suné.  It's unusual, but if that is who you select as your sole patron, that god can collect you from the Fugue upon your death and no other. Thus an Orc soul could conceivably end up in Brightwater, and a dwarf soul could end up in Arvandor.  It's rare, but it could happen.  Most gods have a default body shape that they cast you into when you arrive at your given afterlife.  The hypothetical dwarf above would end up looking like a celestial elf in Arvandor.  The hypothetical orc above would look like a Bacchae.  If you believe in reincarnation but do not choose a patron deity, then most likely you will be judged Faithless and sent to the Wall.  There is some question about what happens to your soul after that.  Many people believe that the mortar in the wall dissolves the soul-stuff in your petitioner body and absorbs your soul into the Fugue Plane.  I personally tend to favor the idea that once released from the Wall through dissolution of your petitioner body, your soul may travel back to the Positive Energy Plane to one of the soul fonts (like the Bastion of Unborn Souls) that are the source of pre-incarnate souls that animate newborn babies.  From there you would be reborn again somewhere.  That could be one way in which those who believe in reincarnation actually get to be reincarnated.  There is no lore that speaks to this, though, so it is just a big question mark as to what actually happens.  Many people have different theories.  But there is no way to know for sure, it's one of those great mysteries.
#5 Jorunhast Oct 07, 2010 23:34:09	Senko, this is an interesting question that deserves a good, solid answer.  But beyond any speculation that others may have on this subject, the best source for religion and spirituality is IMO still the first edition boxed set for Kara-Tur. The simple answer is this:  although western Faerun has clear "rules" about their deities and religious beliefs, there is next to nothing said about the afterlife for the peoples of Kara-Tur.  Bottom line: anything that anyone would try to tell you about this is total speculation.  Ultimately, this is something you have to decide as the DM. It is not said anywhere that the rules of western Faerun's "pantheon" (it is retconned as one now, even though it wasn't this way in the past) necessarily apply to the various religions and faiths of Kara-Tur.  Beware of speculation, because things like the "Bastion of Unborn Souls" are a CORE option, not Realms canon in any way, and don't really fit all of the cultures' beliefs on the planet Toril. We do know, from the Kara-Tur boxed set, that "choosing a single patron deity" is completely unthinkable by most of the Eastern continent religions.  The idea of the Wall of the Faithless doesn't even really have any place in Eastern religions any more than they'd worship the western pantheon.  Given that the Wall was a creation of Myrkul and continued to be endorsed by Kelemmvor, it is an entirely western concept.  And there's nothing to suggest that souls of the Eastern realms need to be judged by a western deity.  The whole idea is bizarre, IMO. There are many faiths in Kara-Tur, and the majority of them have nothing to do with western deities or western beliefs: Shou Lung uses the Chinese pantheon as noted in 1st edition D&D. Tu'Lung also uses the Chinese pantheon. Kozakura and Wa can use either the Chinese or Japanese pantheon, depending on your interests. Malatra uses the Vedic pantheon. Ama tends toward a totemic/spirits reverence, with a few gods also revered. Central Kara-Tur faith revolves around "the Path" (similar in some ways to the philosophy of Buddhism, but not exactly, with heavy emphasis on honoring all spirits) and "the Way" (with reverence of ascended mortals, including some western deities, although it further splits into eastern and western variants). There is also a sort of ancestor worship that some ascribe to, that of the Nine Immortals. Generally speaking, harmony and balance in all things, and reverence of many spirits is important.  No one spirit or deity is given higher status than another in worship.  It would actually be an insult to choose one "patron" as is "required" in the west... as in the East it's believed necessary to make the right appeal or prayer to the right spirit or deity at the right time.   But as to a specific afterlife, there are many possibilities depending on the person's faith.  These, however, are not described in any detail or further explored in supplements to my knowledge. And let's not forget that "patron deities" were not "required" in the West anyway for the first edition Realms, and that even Western faiths were described as truly polytheistic - that choosing a patron was considered rare. So again, since there is no definitive description of the afterlife for Easterners, this is ultimately YOUR decision as the DM (which is how it should be, IMO).  Since the gods' power depends on the total number of worshippers, and Kara-Tur is HUGE, there's every reason to believe that the Eastern faiths don't operate on Western rules, and it's fully acceptable to think that (depending on their regional faith) that a person may become an "ancestor" on their death or they might reincarnate, or they might have something appropriate happen that is related to their personal karmic path.
#6 meldread Oct 08, 2010 1:15:40	Hey Senko! As Jorunhast and Gray said we can only speculate since there was no definitive canonical answer (that I'm aware of, at least). However, I'll try and approach things from a slightly different perspective. Let's take the example of another non-Faerûnian pantheon. Either the old Mulhorandi or the Orcs work in this example. In the Mulhorandi Pantheon Osiris was the deity of the dead and death. He was also known as the Judge of the Dead. The Mulhorandi had a strong code that their deities (specifically Horus-Re, the leader of the Pantheon) wanted people to follow known as maat. Osiris was responsible for judging the souls of the Mulhorandi that honored members of the pantheon (except, perhaps, for Set who was exiled). As a result I'd argue that any faithful of Osiris, Sebek, Thoth, Nephthys, Isis, Geb, Hathor, Anhur, or Horus-Re would first end up in the Fugue Plane - just like all other souls. I'd simply imagine the Fugue Plane as a large waiting room. You show up, and so long as someone is eventually going to call out your name, you're simply chilling out there until they show up. Unlike in the Faerûnian Pantheon, where your patron deity shows up, I'd imagine that if you worshiped any of the aforementioned deities that a representative from Osiris shows up. The soul is then taken back to Heliopolis, the home plane of the Mulhorandi Pantheon, where it is then judged by Osiris. Why would the faithful of say - Hathor - be judged by Osiris? Because that's his job within the pantheon. You're there to be judged accordingly, since he is also the god of justice. All the deities share the same home plane (Helipolis) so it is likely that a patron deity (say Hathor) could make an impassioned plea on a souls behalf.... but it'd ultimately be left up to Osiris since the pantheon is intensely ordered. To take another example, let's look at the Orcish Pantheon. Same thing applies. A soul dies and goes to the Fugue Plane. What next? The Orc Pantheon is more loosely aligned than the Mulhorandi, but it would seem that Yurtrus, the orcish deity of death, would be responsible for claiming the souls from the Fugue Plane. He may not be responsible for judging them, however, merely bringing them back to Nishrek, the Orc deity home plane and turning them over to their respective patron. In the end, each deity or group of deities determines what type of afterlife they offer. Some are good, some are bad, most are subjective to one degree or another. In the case of spirits things become somewhat tricky. The first question that needs to be asked is this: Are the spirits real or merely accepted on "faith"? If the spirits are real and can actually grant powers, then I would say they are very similar to a devil. Devil's aren't divine, but if people worship them we know that the devils can get the souls. So, as a result, I'd argue things from the following point of view. There could be a spirit of the dead and the grave, for example. All other spirits would depend on that spirit to go to the Fugue Plane and pick up the souls and return those souls to the proper spirit(s). The type of afterlife that is imagined is important, since that would likely inform you on what type of outcome takes place. Similar to devil's (and even deities, really) there is power within a soul, and the spirits would likely gain power from "collected" souls. A soul would likely be broken down and distributed exactly according to their belief / worship of the respective spirits. To give an example, let's say we have a hunter. He primarily worshiped the spirit of the hunt since it was relevant to his daily duties. As a result the spirit of the hunt would receive the bulk of the hunters soul-power. Let's speculate a bit further and say that this hunter was exceptional - perhaps even famed. Perhaps the spirit of the hunter is represented in the culture as a wolf. Thus, perhaps some small fragment of the hunters soul is reincarnated into a large wolf. The wolf would be an amazing hunter, seemingly to possess strong natural talents. Perhaps the Spirit of the Hunt uses the wolf as a semi-avatar, to aid hunters who pray to it... Otherwise, the wolf would lead a large pack. In that way, this would be the famed hunters afterlife - an endless hunt. In the end, it's all speculation. I'm highly unfamiliar with Kara-Tur, but the above would be how I'd play such a situation in one of my games if it were ever relevant.
#7 meldread Oct 08, 2010 1:29:50	I should also point out that I'm not entirely sure if all souls go to the Fugue Plane. This is generally considered to be the case, and likely WOULD be considered the case by someone dwelling in Faerûn. Since the setting is so Faerûn centric our views may be colored in a similar way. There are many possibilities. One could be, for example, that by merely actively worshiping the deities of the Mulhorandi Pantheon your soul is "tagged." When tagged with being "loyal to the Mulhorandi Deities" your soul avoids the Fugue entirely and goes straight to Heliopolis to be judged by Osiris. In a similar way, someone who would worship spirits, when they die, could have their soul-energy automatically distributed in whatever manner is appropriate for the belief to the various spirits. Again, this would avoid the Fugue Plane entirely. As should be clear - death in the Realms is a bit quirky. Ultimately, you should just decide whatever you like and fits your intentions. That's always the best advice that can be given, especially in situations like this.
#8 gray_richardson Oct 08, 2010 1:50:18	I agree with Jorunhorast that DMs should certainly decide these things for themselves, and that there is not a lot to go on, he definitely points to some good sources of information. DMs should also decide if they prefer to use older versions of lore and whether to ignore current canon. However, if you want to know where current canon stands, there are some clues in the Players Guide to Faerûn pp.139-165.  This chapter is called "The Cosmology of Toril."  It specifically mentions Kara-Tur and its Spirit World.  And as it purports to detail the Cosmology of all of Toril, and not just Western Faerûn, I assume that the information therein applies equally to Kara-Tur. Page 153 states "Like Cynosure, the Fugue Plane exists outside the normal cosmology of Toril. Souls naturally travel from the Material Plane to the Fugue Plane at death, but they cannot leave of their own volition. Divine servants can travel here from the realms of their deities and bring souls back with them, as long as those souls properly belong to the deities they serve."  This is one of the quotes that I think supports that the Fugue Plane is one of those trans-pantheonic features of the entire cosmology that applies equally to all pantheons and all deceased mortal souls. All mortal souls of Toril travel to the Fugue upon their death to be collected by their patron gods.  Of course, the Wall is not something that any adherent of any pantheon need worry, think or even know about.  The Wall does not apply to those who have faith, but rather only those who do not have a god.  The Wall is not really a part of any religion, it's a geographic feature of the Fugue Plane that exists outside of any religion. Kelemvor doesn't judge the faithful of any god. He is a neutral referee, more like the station-master of a train-stop there to manage the station and ensure that all the passengers get to their appointed destinations.  He makes sure the tracks are in good order, that no vandals or hooligans disrupt the orderly operation of the station or threaten the safety of the passengers or try to misdirect them or steal  their luggage.  He does have some authority to deal with trespassers and people without tickets.  But he doesn't mess with those who have a ticket.  Kelemvor was (apparently) appointed by Ao to ensure equal access for the souls of all mortals to go to the afterlife of their chosen deity or pantheon. I wouldn't get too hung up on the single patron aspect of Toril's cosmology.  Don't forget that most of Faerûn is polytheistic as well, they also worship many deities.  As mentioned above, there is either usually one that the person favors, even slightly, that can be considered a patron. Or alternatively, one can possibly have multiple patrons, in which case any of the agents of any of your multiple patrons should be able to approach you and collect you from the Fugue. In Eastern faiths, perhaps all the gods of a pantheon use the same agent, because all the gods in that pantheon delegate their authority to a single god.  So in that case, say you worship the Indian pantheon in Malatra, maybe your patron is Agni--or maybe you worship all the gods equally and cannot single out one sole patron--well that wouldn't matter because Yama is the judge of the dead for the entire Indian pantheon, and all of the Indian gods delegate their authority over the dead of their faith to Yama.  So no matter which Indian god is your patron, Yama, or one of his servants, would come collect you in the Fugue and take you to the Indian afterlife to be judged.  Even if you had Agni as a patron, Yama would be Agni's delegated agent, so he would be acting on Agni's behalf when he collected your soul and judged it. If you follow the Dao or Shinto or the Budhism cognate, then you or your DM will have to do some thinking about how that works and decide the particulars. To the extent that there is some sort of anthropomorphic divine entity in the religion to have faith in, the Wall would not apply to any of those followers. Note that Kara-Tur's Spirit World is mentioned on p.165, which, in it's entirety, states that "The Spirit World described in the Appendix in Manual of the Planes is coexistent with and coterminous to the Material Plane, but only in Kara-Tur. Each deity of Kara-Tur’s Celestial Bureaucracy has a small realm attached to the Spirit World. Because it is a transitive plane, the Spirit World replaces the Astral Plane in Kara-Tur." Page 164 states that "Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril’s Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities. These Astral Planes are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons.The Astral Plane known to characters in Faerûn leads to the planes of the Faerûnian pantheon, as well as the non-human pantheons (whose geographical area of control overlaps that of the Faerûnian deities) and the Mulhorandi pantheon. Characters in other areas can enter different Astral Planes with links to the Outer Planes inhabited by their own deities. Ao is thought to supervise the separate Astral Planes just as he adjudicates conflicts between the pantheons." The above lore supports that the Fugue Plane is outside all these various Astrals, and was instituted by Ao in order to oversee the orderly progress of all Toril's mortal dead to the correct afterlife, without favor or bias to any one god or pantheon.  The faithful never even see Kelemvor during their brief pit-stop. They simply wait around on the Plane for their god or his agent to collect them, they do not enter the City of Judgment, only those who are faithless (no god has the right to pick them up), or false (their god refuses to pick them up) are called to the City for judgment. There may be minor exceptions, say if there is confusion as to divine jurisdiction, Kelemvor may have the right to adjudicate disputes between gods or pantheons as to who is a proper patron to the soul. Those minor exceptions are, of course, for the DM to decide.
#9 Jorunhast Oct 08, 2010 3:22:03	Just a few additional things to consider: - the 2nd-4th editions have seen a gradual "simplification" of both deity numbers and cosmology. - many cosmological changes have a lot to do with whether or not you want to use the ToT or Spellplague in your game. - Gray is quoting 3rd edition sources, and cosmology was dramatically altered in 4E by spellplague energies. - largely, sourcebooks' cosmology has become more and more northwest-Faerun-centric with the gradual narrowing or elimination of many deities from various cultures; this has only recently resulted in a "primary" (and now smaller) pantheon for western Faerun, which many people view as retconning (though some insist that it's just story evolution). - generally speaking, the East and West haven't had a lot of crossover in terms of faith and philosophy, and there's really nothing to suggest that Eastern spirituality depends on any Western concepts; in fact, many Western beliefs are incompatible with Eastern faiths. - by 4E the Mulhorandi pantheon is almost entirely gone, the majority of those deities having "vanished" when their nation was largely destroyed; they've been in trouble since 2E, though. - Kara-Tur is unique in that it was not really expanded upon in much detail after 1E, so you can do anything you like without worry of being "wrong" with respect to canon.  Don't rely on others' speculation, conclusions, or personal beliefs, just do what you want to do.
#10 senko Oct 08, 2010 8:36:52	Thanks for the replies you've give me a lot to think on/work with.