It was PAINFULLY obvious each author had their own favorite, so every character wound-up looking like the worst case of multiple-personality disorder I have ever seen.
Take Pharaun - my favorite - for example. In one book he saves a complete stranger (Danifae), in another he sacrifices a bit of his own life-force to help Valas Hune, and toward the end he doesn't give a crap about his best friend's death.
WTF?
And then he's killed off in such a manner that I feel he was supposed to be dead at the end of the series, and they forgot to do that, so they just scribbled-in a little stupid something at the end there just to get rid of him.
I'd have to say it definately ranks in the top three of the worst series (of any genre) I have ever read... EVER!
I will make a point of NEVER reading a multiple-author series (that covers the same events and characters) ever again. The character's personalities were so 'all-over-the-place' that I had trouble identifying with any of them, which makes them a total loser as literature.
-Halisstra was born a Lolthite, grew up a Lolthite, was indoctrinated as a Lolthite, and (if I remember correctly) possessed minor Clerical powers along with her Bardic powers, that stemmed from Lolth. For a brief time, she gave up Lolth, and took Eilistraee as her patron. On the "outside", Halisstra believed that Eilistraee was her patron, that Eilistraee was this, and Eilistraee was that...But, deep down, on the "inside" Halisstra Melarn was still the same old Halisstra Melarn, who was taught that Eilistraee is a weakling, that Lolth is supreme, that males are "lesser" beings than females, and all of that other stuff. This kinds of "deep down" feelings aren't so easily shaken off. Your formative years shape who you are, and what kind of person you are.
-The best example is probably this: In the United States, we have a well documented problem with racism, from then Africans were slaves, to the Jim Crow period after African and African-descended slaves were "freed" and given the same rights that other American citizens had, to the tumultuous '60s, with the Civil Rights Movement, among so many other societal-shaking changes. To a person who was born in, say, the 50s, who were taught from birth that blacks are this, or blacks are that, do you think that, when the Civil Rights Movement was over, all of that magically disappeared? No, of course not. Those who believed it might be much more careful to whom they said such things about, but such feelings remain buried down there, regardless if the person wants to believe it or not.
She seemed to switch from one extreme to the other.
-People do that. I know I, myself, in the course of reading things, very often flip-flop about whether or not I think that some sort of deity or deities exist in actuality. I've made it a lot easier on myself, and have a much more empirically agnostic viewpoint on such matters. But, imagine how people would be when things like deities are real, tangible things?
Very.. women like really ;) .
-SHHH! Don't say that! Whaddya wanna do, get yourself killed or something!? ;) :P
As for Halisstra - I agree with LK. The thing that has struck me the most was her affair/feelings for Ryld. Complicated tangle of emotions that has led them both to death...
As to the characters' changing. I think it was great - to see them behave in different ways, not just plain 'I am NE/CE evil drow so I kill and betray everyone around'.
-Very true, too. The stereotypical Drow is either typically evil, or a "Drizzt like rebel". It was something we don't ge to see too much of, with her.
-Ultimatley, Halisstra is a reflection of how indoctrination works, and how a person cannot just inherently change who they are and what makes them.
Not to say that this doesn't make sense (and again, I'm not sure that Halisstra was ever a "bright bulb"), but it's definitely possible to shake off beliefs that one was indoctrinated with, though perhaps not easily. I don't think I need to tell you of an example... ;)
He always seemed boring to me. The character, over the course of the trilogy, has gone through so many metamorphosis’s that, by this point, I’ve stopped caring about him. Evil, good, neutral, slave, slaver, leader, follower…
See this is exactly how I felt about Halisstra during the entire process of WotSQ. Her complaining and inner deliberation was much like Drizzt for me and then she'd switch it up, so very.. nausea inflicting.
I wouldn't compare her to him. I didn't notice any of his 'oh Mielikki I am so lost' ravings and his lenghty thoughts. On the contrary. Her changes had only one reason - mentioned above.
As for the novels, well, the authors were most likely given a outline and had to work along those lines. It had its highs and lows, but the novels were as such IMHO surely above average, the last my personal favourite.
Likewise the LP series. But as much as you cannot cut Frodo out of LotR, you cannot cut Halisstra and the deiicide out of LP. Which is a shame.
And I'd really want to read LP because I so liked her... but I guess I won't ever got it to be published in Poland.
Well, I loved her and Ryld. And Pharaun. The rest were worse.
And I'd really want to read LP because I so liked her... but I guess I won't ever got it to be published in Poland.
Amazon delivers worldwide, you know ;). And no, neither of the characters you listed struck a cord with me.
Horrible about sums up the series for me.
It was PAINFULLY obvious each author had their own favorite, so every character wound-up looking like the worst case of multiple-personality disorder I have ever seen.
True. But it wasn’t a “horrible” series. There were definitely parts in there that I found interesting.
Unfortunately, most of those came in the last book with Paul Kemp. Lil’ bastard has a thing for killing great characters.
Too bad that I love his books.
-I'll have to disagree. Halisstra was a very good character.
She sucked. Primarily in respect to MT’s point.
Your formative years shape who you are, and what kind of person you are.
-The best example is probably this: In the United States, we have a well documented problem with racism, from then Africans were slaves, to the Jim Crow period after African and African-descended slaves were "freed" and given the same rights that other American citizens had, to the tumultuous '60s, with the Civil Rights Movement, among so many other societal-shaking changes. To a person who was born in, say, the 50s, who were taught from birth that blacks are this, or blacks are that, do you think that, when the Civil Rights Movement was over, all of that magically disappeared? No, of course not. Those who believed it might be much more careful to whom they said such things about, but such feelings remain buried down there, regardless if the person wants to believe it or not.
As a man that once gave $1000+ away each year to homeless people and now spits at their feet and tells them to fruck off, I respectfully disagree.
There are truly life-jolting experiences that make you completely turn your head from those “formative years.”
Trust me.
But it was just so choppy. I'd like to think actual emotion was much more subtle and fluid. She seemed to switch from one extreme to the other. Very.. women like really ;) .
Agreed.
When Smedman came in, that’s where it all went downhill for me. I could stand the other depictions of her, but Smedman's?
As to the characters' changing. I think it was great - to see them behave in different ways, not just plain 'I am NE/CE evil drow so I kill and betray everyone around'.
As for Halisstra - I agree with LK. The thing that has struck me the most was her affair/feelings for Ryld. Complicated tangle of emotions that has led them both to death...
We already have 3 threads debating alignment—let’s not go to 4.
If you don't like her in the War of the Spider Queen series, don't touch the Lady Penitent one. At least not when you want to know about her.
Whatever way, leave the alignment out of the discussion, please. I referred to Halisstra as a living (almost ;) ) character, not D&D statblock.LK I was perusing your reviews and found your piece on Q'yrland in Ascendency of the Last and it read..
...
See this is exactly how I felt about Halisstra during the entire process of WotSQ. Her complaining and inner deliberation was much like Drizzt for me and then she'd switch it up, so very.. nausea inflicting.
-Big Q had no reason to change, whereas Halisstra did. His character, as I said, was horribly done. At least with Halisstra, she had reason to change her views and "jump around". With Big Q, he didn't. At least, nothing compelling that *I* think would cause a person to do that.
As a man that once gave $1000+ away each year to homeless people and now spits at their feet and tells them to fruck off, I respectfully disagree.
There are truly life-jolting experiences that make you completely turn your head from those “formative years.”
Trust me.
-Well, I wish I had the capacity to be that charitable. Regardless, I am still going to disagree, to a point. A person's formative experiences can be ignored and "buried", but they can't be fully exorcised. Let me just pick something somewhat random but common..."Catholic Guilt". Having been raised by a somewhat conservative Catholic, even though I don't consider it my religion, many of the "Catholic Guilt" things that, by my own morals, aren't bad, per se, I still sometimes get nervous/hesitant/whatever the best word is.
Or the reverse.
Well, if you can explain how behavior and alignment are not interconnected, then sure. :D
-Well, I wish I had the capacity to be that charitable. Regardless, I am still going to disagree, to a point. A person's formative experiences can be ignored and "buried", but they can't be fully exorcised. Let me just pick something somewhat random but common..."Catholic Guilt". Having been raised by a somewhat conservative Catholic, even though I don't consider it my religion, many of the "Catholic Guilt" things that, by my own morals, aren't bad, per se, I still sometimes get nervous/hesitant/whatever the best word is.
Close, but not quite what I was talking about. There is nothing "liberating" in what I speak of. It's more of a condemnation of something you loved (without mass consent involved) and walking away from it without regrets or second guessing.
Not saying it happens often to people--pretty much holds the odds of winning the lottery--but it does. It simply takes the right person with the right outlook with the right circumstances.
When Smedman came in, that’s where it all went downhill for me. I could stand the other depictions of her, but Smedman's?
She should be the FR poster child of 'Craptastic'.
Everything FR she has ever written was utter drivel, and is best ignored.
As a side note, taken individually, I would say some of them were good, but as a series it sucked, because their was absolutely NO character uniformity.
So yeah, take five of the novels and read them 'in a vacuum', pretending they have no relation to the others (and character-wise, they do not - a name does not a character make).
Then chuck Smedman's into the fireplace.
I really like Pharaun and was a little miffed at his outcome.
I think the Lady Penitent series might have been a little better. Actually, they were equal.
In the end they're enjoyable bits of Realms lore. Take from it what you will.
She should be the FR poster child of 'Craptastic'.
Everything FR she has ever written was utter drivel, and is best ignored.
Marvelous!
So yeah, take five of the novels and read them 'in a vacuum', pretending they have no relation to the others (and character-wise, they do not - a name does not a character make).
Then chuck Smedman's into the fireplace.
For the most part, the friends I have that read but don't play did the same thing. I keep trying to get them to finish the series, but they were put dead by her dipiction.
No other way to put it.
She had no backbone or determination. As soon as something got tough, she would jump ship.
I believe someone mentioned that she wasn't a typical drow, and I have to disagree with this evidence:
As soon as it was convenient and might cost her something to be faithful, she betrayed which ever side she was on.
Very...very drow elf of her.
Whether or not it was poorly written (and I think the LP series was a fecal abortion) doesn't matter to me.
If I read a series, I want the main character to be someone to aspire to. I am surrounded by scumbags and jerks all day in real life. The last thing I need is to read about those kinds of people prospering in my fiction.
Can I sacrifice him to Bejebuz now?
She should be the FR poster child of 'Craptastic'.
Everything FR she has ever written was utter drivel, and is best ignored.
-Though I have never read it, I've been recommended The House of Serpents trilogy on some good advice.
-Though I have never read it, I've been recommended The House of Serpents trilogy on some good advice.
Yes, it's a good series.;)
And if it isn't, and it is indeed good, it actually proves my point - writers like her and Troy Denning by all appearances write novels with no inkling of Realmslore, and then paste them into the Realms, despite the rather poor fit at times. Its like the Realmlore is 'sprinkled in' afterwards, and the stories themselves are generic.
There should be some sort of 'Realms Knowlede' test given to authors before they are allowed to write Realms novels - and I think Georgr Krashos should administer the test.
Then again, George is tough... maybe even Ed wouldn't pass. :P
I found Hallistra to be garbage.
No other way to put it.
I agree - I absolutely HATED her character (or lack there-of), and begrudged every single page she appeared on.
She had no backbone or determination. As soon as something got tough, she would jump ship.
I believe someone mentioned that she wasn't a typical drow, and I have to disagree with this evidence:
As soon as it was convenient and might cost her something to be faithful, she betrayed which ever side she was on.
Very...very drow elf of her.
Disagree here - while Drow are incredibly self-serving (aren't ALL Elves?), they usually have a LOT of backbone. She should have never survived into adulthood in that society, being such a weakling. Lolth would have made sure of it.
and I think the LP series was a fecal abortion
You sir, may have just out-done me on the Hate-O-meter scale. :D
Bravo
If I read a series, I want the main character to be someone to aspire to. I am surrounded by scumbags and jerks all day in real life. The last thing I need is to read about those kinds of people prospering in my fiction.
Exactly.
The only characters I would have wanted to be was Ryld - who was killled in such an off-hand manner, or Phaurun, who was killed-off as if in an after-thought.
That ending was SO poor, it ruined the entire series for me.
If they ever decide to do a new edition of that series (and isn't it inevitable ?), I would HIGHLY recommend they change that ending for Phaurun. It took a barely-tolerable series and turned it into unreadable garbage, IMHO.
what happened to Anthraxus was ridiculous
Is that FR?
-Yes, yes it is.
Is that FR?
The House of Serpents trilogy? It is, and it takes place in Hlondeth.
There should be some sort of 'Realms Knowlede' test given to authors before they are allowed to write Realms novels - and I think Georgr Krashos should administer the test.
I’ve mentioned that before and highly agree. Unfortunately, the buck Wizards is willing to turn on published material outweighs the desires of those fans that are truly in love with the setting itself.
The only characters I would have wanted to be was Ryld - who was killled in such an off-hand manner, or Phaurun, who was killed-off as if in an after-thought.
Thought Ryld’s character was lost after the 2nd book (or close enough to it). I was happy to see him go—though I agree it was weak.
Phaurun’s I had no problem with (well, not so much). It was representative of the story taking place and the goddess involved.
Besides, he’s not quite as dead as Ryld is.
I like Serpents, and I have an interest in Hlondeth... but I just can't bring myself to purchase a Lisa Smegma novel.
Eh. The longer you go without 3e? You'd be surprised what you'd do.
Thought Ryld’s character was lost after the 2nd book (or close enough to it). I was happy to see him go—though I agree it was weak.
-Agreed. When he died, I wasn't too "sad". It was an interesting way to die, though. I didn't expect it to happen like that. I figured that one of the Drow women would sacrifice him or something.
-Agreed. When he died, I wasn't too "sad". It was an interesting way to die, though. I didn't expect it to happen like that. I figured that one of the Drow women would sacrifice him or something.
Well, I am seeing that Smedman and Spellplague have much the same affect these days.
They tend to equate in manners we mortals don't understand.
concerning Resurrection, the authors should pass some planar knowledge tests
what happened to Anthraxus was ridiculous
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Resurrection was the worst book I have ever read. Way too much to end in a 6 book story by 6 different people.
concerning Resurrection, the authors should pass some planar knowledge tests
what happened to Anthraxus was ridiculous
Caught in a ball of force and cooked/overheated (not burnt) to death? And half a second later his clone steps out of the tube, leaving all who were annoyed by his death all smiles again?
Rest assured, of all FR novel authors, Paul S. Kemp is the one who knows the rules he includes in his novels inside out. Still, do keep in mind that in every novel there will be something heroic or beyond-the-rules too.
Well, I am seeing that Smedman and Spellplague have much the same affect these days.
They tend to equate in manners we mortals don't understand.
The Smedplague? :D
Still, do keep in mind that in every novel there will be something heroic or beyond-the-rules too.
-I know a lot of people don't like that kind of stuff (stuff that can't be explained with the D&D rules 100%). I appreciate that stuff though. That's the kind of stuff that makes it feel like a story, rather than the notes from someone's D&D game.
-I know a lot of people don't like that kind of stuff (stuff that can't be explained with the D&D rules 100%). I appreciate that stuff though. That's the kind of stuff that makes it feel like a story, rather than the notes from someone's D&D game.
Indeed. "Abelar's Descent" in Shadowrealm is such an instance that, if done good enough, should always have a place in a good novel. (In essence, that is what the players dream about at the peak of their characters' careers too.) In contrast, if one scimitar-wielder bests a balor twice and a marilith once in "close-combat" ...
Rest assured, of all FR novel authors, Paul S. Kemp is the one who knows the rules he includes in his novels inside out. Still, do keep in mind that in every novel there will be something heroic or beyond-the-rules too.
Not true at all, but...
Indeed. "Abelar's Descent" in Shadowrealm is such an instance that, if done good enough, should always have a place in a good novel. (In essence, that is what the players dream about at the peak of their characters' careers too.) In contrast, if one scimitar-wielder bests a balor twice and a marilith once in "close-combat" ...
-That specific part, I did think it was a bit corny, but I know what you mean. Rules be damned if it interferes with a good story being told. That said, though, I wouldn't want my Forgotten Realms novels to diverge too much from D&D. A balance somewhere in-between, where most authors already "are" is fine with me.
When you begin bringing in "powers" and start comparing them to the stats that have been given to a character, then it just sort of begins to stretch things.
If you leave nothing up to the imagination, then all we have are stats, after all.
Well, as long as we don't have stats for the characters, then all is good.
-Hmm...For Erevis Cale, there's "unofficial official" stats that Paul Kemp and Tom Costa made up (Here, I think). Other than those, though- and I don't think they are fully up-to-date, to reflect the ending of the Twilight War trilogy- there aren't any other stats, no. A few people have chimed in about their ideas for levels and stuff for other characters in the books, but there's nothing official or anything.
-Three issues of DRAGON magazine...Let me check...302, 312 and 322. Rich Baker was given the credit in the articles, so if there's anything specific, about whatever, you can always ask him.
Oh....
Well, that helps.
Let me just walk into the vast library of mine and look that up.
You have a drow who as we find out in LP wasn't born with the 'taint' that locked most drow into Lolth worship but was raised in a Lolth ruled society. She was a cleric of Lolth though it seemed not a powerful one. She tended to rely on 'dark bardic' magic more than divine magic.
Once exposed to another option her bloodline tried to assert itself. This then created a 'war' within her about even being worthy to be brought into the light because she started to feel guilt about killing Seyll (and it increased when Seyll sacrificed her soul to protect Halisstra from being pulled fully back into Lolth's servitude at the end of the Silence).
Combine her own internal struggle to reform and change to a very different relgious doctrine (something shown as other drow who were 'redeemed' having trouble doing even if they'd never been one of Lolth's clerics) with Lolth's plans for her and it would make her very chaotic in behavior.
While it makes a great concept in outline it makes for a hard character to write about because you can't develop her too much because she's gonna be changing repeatedly throughout both series. She's also the focus of two opposed dieties attempts to destroy the other and at one time worshipped each of them. What she went through would be enough to drive most insane and would fit with unpredictable behavior and constant 'switching sides'.
In all honesty such behavior works better as a minor character on the side rather than a major character who gets a fair amount of 'stage time' because the flaws in their behavior is more noticable the more focus they get by the author. It's why most 'sycophant' characters in books and movies only have limited appearance time.
I think they did a better job with Q'arlynd's evolution but that's because he wasn't a piece being used by both sides of the war nor was he a cleric of Lolth who turned. They showed him (and Halisstra) as having always had some 'non-drow' traits that were supressed to stay alive.
What happened with Halisstra's character and depictions in the novels shows the problems when you have a character who isn't a god but who's behavior is planned and worked on by not one, but two gods, in a setting where gods are very real and very active.
I think the biggest problem with Halisstra wasn't the authors but the plotline she was tied to, not only in WotSQ but LP as well. I think it made her hard to work with from an author's stand point.
You have a drow who as we find out in LP wasn't born with the 'taint' that locked most drow into Lolth worship but was raised in a Lolth ruled society. She was a cleric of Lolth though it seemed not a powerful one. She tended to rely on 'dark bardic' magic more than divine magic.
You are combining the storyline's of two different series into one.
The Halisstra in LP wasn’t even thought of during WotSQ.
And, if you have proof that she was, then it was the authors that CENSORED it up.