This is mostly just a lore and speculation thread, but on the campaign front, would PC involvement in a revenge plot be too redundant or unlikely after For Duty & Deity?
PS (Is Sembia essentially lost to Waukeen now that
has moved in? Is there rivalry between her and ?)PS2 (I haven't finished the Scions of Arrabar trilogy yet, but is anyone else sad that Vambran and the whole city is gone??
I liked Vambran!)PS3 (Where are Waukeen's power center(s) now? Anyone remember any bits in the FRCG/PG geographical info?)
Don't know of any revenge she got against Graz'zt though. To be frank, I never much liked that subplot of the ToT, so never really looked that hard into it.
Regardless, I doubt that people would be secretly worshiping Waukeen at this point.
Of course, if she's a particularly vengeful deity she could hunt Graz'zt down or invade Azzagrat but imo that would inevitably lead to her ultimate defeat and to the ascension of Graz'zt to godhood. I always imagined that dealing with Graz'zt (in the Abyss) is the same as dealing with Asmodeus; it's a disaster for all but greater deities.
To oversee and run all that trade isn't easy.
Doing what Graz'zt does isn't easy either :P
In 4e, Shar is the goddess of Sembia--the only. Unless there is secret worship.
-Just like Shar was worshiped in secret in Sembia, once upon a time, I am sure that Waukeen, now, is too. Any deity, really.
-Just like Shar was worshiped in secret in Sembia, once upon a time, I am sure that Waukeen, now, is too. Any deity, really.
Yeah, but my point is if you are under Shar oppressed rule and religion, are you going to sit there and pray to Waukeen or to someone like Tempus or Amaunator or Tyr in the face of your oppression?
Sorry. But me? I'm callin' on a god that's going to be against Shar and not just out for coin.
For example, in the novel Maiden Of Pain, the people of Luthcheq, under the tyranny Cult Of Entropy, would cry out “Waukeen bless us.” or “Waukeen protect us.” If Waukeen is one of only safe and neutral religions allowed by the state, it makes sense for people to turn to her.
It's not impossible that Waukeen could shift her aspect to help people, if she turned out to be only available option for them, and enough people pressured her or her priesthood. "In the name of Waukeen, we demand a fair deal!" :D
Yeah, but my point is if you are under Shar oppressed rule and religion, are you going to sit there and pray to Waukeen or to someone like Tempus or Amaunator or Tyr in the face of your oppression?
Sorry. But me? I'm callin' on a god that's going to be against Shar and not just out for coin.
-A good point. People are polytheistic, though. They'll pray to Tempus or Torm or whoever to free them of opression, and Waukeen when they're doing their business. A greedy Sembian is still a greedy Sembian, whether or not they have their own self-determination, or if they are ruled over by the Shadovar.
Well, her bestest buddy was Lliira, and if you think about her portfolio, she might not be as unfriendly to the common man as one might think. A destitute commoner is one who isn't buying much, which is hardly good for commerce, trade, or wealth. Money has to be moving to do any good after all, and tyrants aren't known for encouraging that sort of financial freedom...
Very true. Waukeen wants her followers to give money to the poor so they have coin to spend.
Money has to be moving to do any good after all, and tyrants aren't known for encouraging that sort of financial freedom...
That's sort of what I am talking about. The Shade targeted Sembia for that very reason--as a key trade port. And, even now, Sembia is described as a "thriving" place for merchants. Netherise want it to do just that. You're argument on that fact holds no basis.
Very true. Waukeen wants her followers to give money to the poor so they have coin to spend.
Not the case in Sembia.
-A good point. People are polytheistic, though. They'll pray to Tempus or Torm or whoever to free them of opression, and Waukeen when they're doing their business. A greedy Sembian is still a greedy Sembian, whether or not they have their own self-determination, or if they are ruled over by the Shadovar.
I'm aware of the lip service. I don't doubt that every time a merchant makes a profitable trade that they give silent thanks to Waukeen in some manner.
But those "secret" followers that truly go underground to worship in the face of Shar oppression...? I don't see those being followers of Waukeen.
I'm aware of the lip service. I don't doubt that every time a merchant makes a profitable trade that they give silent thanks to Waukeen in some manner.
But those "secret" followers that truly go underground to worship in the face of Shar oppression...? I don't see those being followers of Waukeen.
-I guess it depends on how far you want to stretch the definition of "secret followers". I agree, I don't think that Waukeen would be the one receiving the prayers to help free Sembia from the Shadovar.
Not the case in Sembia.
Maybe, but like Stigger I was just making a general statement about Waukeen's dogma.
Waukeen is... the goddess of trade. If she even was a vengeful person, then she'd launch an embargo against the Abyss and block all trade there, bankrupting Grazzt. Or something.
I was going to say someting similar.
Waukeen wouldn't do anything that is 'bad for business', and wars are usually bad for business (unless you have a war-time economy, like the U.S., or are an arms-dealer).
I could see her doing 'financial stuff' (whatever that means) to get back at him in little ways... perhaps 'backing' certain demons and devils against him, by given them money (or whatever passes for currency on the lower planes) to help them better equip their troops or pay for mercenaries (like the 'loths).
Ergo, I would agree that she would do things more in-line with her portfolio, rather then strike at him openly.
She would also probably try to stop ALL trade with any cults he has in the Realms, bankrupting them. She's more about undermining someone's power-base then direct confrontation.
And so concludes another lesson in Cosmic Economics 101. :D
Waukeen can't do much damage to Graz'zt directly, he deals with bigger fishes all the time, he kept her as a toy, which that FR-centric campaign failed to mention
I was going to say someting similar.
Waukeen wouldn't do anything that is 'bad for business', and wars are usually bad for business (unless you have a war-time economy, like the U.S., or are an arms-dealer).
I could see her doing 'financial stuff' (whatever that means) to get back at him in little ways... perhaps 'backing' certain demons and devils against him, by given them money (or whatever passes for currency on the lower planes) to help them better equip their troops or pay for mercenaries (like the 'loths).
Ergo, I would agree that she would do things more in-line with her portfolio, rather then strike at him openly.
She would also probably try to stop ALL trade with any cults he has in the Realms, bankrupting them. She's more about undermining someone's power-base then direct confrontation.
And so concludes another lesson in Cosmic Economics 101. :D
Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts!
I think the above quote sums things up pretty well. A crusade or strike of vengeance might not really fit her style.On Waukeenar in Sembia: Yeah, there may be some who wish for more open trade and commerce and whatnot, but I agree the actual leaders of the revolutionaries are more likely to be Selunites...or whoevers. (I just picked them cause I :inlove: them.)
On power centers: Isn't Amn mostly Cyric's turf?? I guess other churches are still allowed?
download Lands of Intrigue at wotc if you want to check
I could see her doing 'financial stuff' (whatever that means) to get back at him in little ways... perhaps 'backing' certain demons and devils against him, by given them money (or whatever passes for currency on the lower planes) to help them better equip their troops or pay for mercenaries (like the 'loths).
Lower planes currency... that would be those larvae, right? The ones the Hags collect?
Aha! Faiths & Pantheons: "Aside from Mask, her only true enemy is Grazzt, against whom she has sworn her eventual revenge." So she is working on vengeance. Must be quite a slow-boiling plot though.
Curiously, all Goldeyes (the Waukeen PrC in F&P) learn to speak Abyssal, "a legacy of Waukeen's decade long imprisonment by the demon-prince Grazzt." Maybe she is empowering her best agents to deal with the tanar'ri?
Does anyone know where Grazzt is as of 4e?
Perhaps he's nailed to her wall by his... Bhaals... :D
Lower planes currency... that would be those larvae, right? The ones the Hags collect?
-Yeah. Souls and such.
Does anyone know where Grazzt is as of 4e?
-Spellplague.
Hopefully dead. Never liked him much to be honest...
Before they kill off Graz'zt they kill off a thousand insignificant deities as Waukeen one is.
Edit:
They did already...
church and plots her revenge against Grazzt. If any of the PCs were sufficiently awed by witnessing Waukeen's reassumption of her power (or being returned from death) to take up worship of the goddess, a place in her new hierarchy is almost assured. The characters could also become Waukeen's primary tools against Grazzt and his various plans. She could send them on missions to disrupt his trade agreements, expose some of his deals to other Abyssal lords, or simply raid his Counting-House."
That seems to be it, really. The assumption appears to be that "adventurers" (nameless Faerunian adventurers that is, in reality, any PCs who finished the module and followed on from it), went about the revenge plots. If not them, then probably Waukeenar clergy and agents. So it's probably been done already. I can't imagine her sitting and brooding on it, ala Hoar.
It all seems rather bloodless, really. Waukeen may simply just wish to extract suitable compensation from Grazzt, from breaking their contract* and holding her captive. She might even end it when she's taken enough wealth from him. She's probably not strong enough to do anything more. Targeting Thraxxia, Grazzt's daughter and would-be replacement for Waukeen would be easier.
Though if you wanted something more, I can see a golden statue of Grazzt adorning some corner of Waukeen's Marketplace, with an actual Grazzt inside. Dipping him in the molten gold would have been the fun part. :evillaugh (Or Thraxxia for that matter.)
* A contract with a Demon-Prince, epitome of Chaotic Evil? Waukeen walked right into that one.
Grazzt had a piece in one of the early online Dragons, so he's probably still around.
...or simply raid his Counting-House."
-Ouch. Hit him where it hurts.
-Also, since Waukeen is the deity of wealth and trade and business and all of that, hiring a bunch of Yugoloth to do some "enforcing" sounds right up her ally, in terms of what she is the deity of, and in terms of getting her revenge.
"You come to me, on this, the day of Tymora's wedding..."
If they are anything like RW Bankers, then that is a DARK religion, indeed.
As far as the PS goes, I'm going to assume that Waukeen's faith has at least some influence in pretty much any major trade city. Every merchant goes where either the money or the goods are, and I expect Waukeen to do the same.
but she has a lot of competition in numerous other gods of trade, and Merkhants
If they are anything like RW Bankers, then that is a DARK religion, indeed.
the Iron Throne and Rundeen (and Twisted Rune) haven't reached that level of development yet, in the future it is possible when Faerun becomes more ''global''
As far as the PS goes, I'm going to assume that Waukeen's faith has at least some influence in pretty much any major trade city. Every merchant goes where either the money or the goods are, and I expect Waukeen to do the same.
Indeed. But the "open" worship would be the issue here.
Amn was getting dangerously close to becoming another Dutch East-India Company.
-That would be more like Aurora's company.
I thought they were just targeting me, but I see a lot of meaningful posts ripped here--and, I was not involved with them.
-That would be more like Aurora's company.
Aurora isn't evil.
Amn sponsors slave-trading (discreetly), as did the afore-mentioned RW trading coster. They also both used their financial 'muscle' to control regions and manipulate politics and laws to suit them.
The 'bad guys'(?) in the PotC movies (2 & 3) were members of that company, and if you've seen those films, thats definately NOT how Aurora does business. They also chartered 'Privateers' (a fancy word for 'legitimate pirates') to sink rival's ships.
Amn are a bunch of stinkers, and thats where I'm getting the comparison. Aurora is just like Walmart - service with a smile.
I guess thats why I have her fighting with Thaymart in my Realms. :D
Aurora isn't evil.
Amn sponsors slave-trading (discreetly), as did the afore-mentioned RW trading coster. They also both used their financial 'muscle' to control regions and manipulate politics and laws to suit them.
The 'bad guys'(?) in the PotC movies (2 & 3) were members of that company, and if you've seen those films, thats definately NOT how Aurora does business. They also chartered 'Privateers' (a fancy word for 'legitimate pirates') to sink rival's ships.
Amn are a bunch of stinkers, and thats where I'm getting the comparison. Aurora is just like Walmart - service with a smile.
I guess thats why I have her fighting with Thaymart in my Realms. :D
-The Dutch East-Asia Company didn't trade slaves. They mostly traded in spices, from practically all over the world, and in the later days, in precious metals. The first part, like Aurora.