The designers might be wanting to cut him off, because some people think he is too similar to Mitra.
I would like to say though, that this is mere speculation of my part.
No actual evidence at all.
But well... maybe the events of this new century 'matured' Lathender..
The fact is that a lot of players make that association.
I noticed that happening in all my groups, in Brazil, Portugal and even here (U.S.).
I also doubt that, with the current trend of simplifying the pantheon, Lathander and Amaunator would coexist as sun deities. That does not sound as simplification.
Maybe 4e will just pretend both were the same all along.
then they don't know much about Mit(h)ra(s)
Actually... yes. The Mitraism (?) cult of late roman era had a few similarities with the cult of lathander (not huge, mind you).
Now, the links between the two deities are long theories, heresies, mystic questions... They could be the two. It's nothing WOTC have really created, ya know.
picking just Amaunator over Lathander is a bad idea, he's boring, Jergal as a god of dusk, much more interesting
picking just Amaunator over Lathander is a bad idea, he's boring(...)
I totally agree with that.
Also, Lathander is one of the most proactive good deities in FR, so his presence is not minor at all. Such a change would kind of mess up the balance between good and evil.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=702942&page=104
Lathander and Amaunator are the same being. Over centuries, the sun god assumes various incarnations more or less analogous to the various times of the day. He was beginning to shift toward his "high noon" aspect even at the end of 3e, and by 1479 DR, he's firmly in his new aspect.
(Interestingly enough, I don't know if we've ever said what his evening aspect would be. Presumably he would have been in the evening aspect sometime around the 3rd-4th-5th century DR, because you'd suppose that would fall between his last noontime incarnation and his Lathander incarnation, which was definitely in place by the 7th century DR.)
Count me among those who never liked Lathander being intertwined with Amaunator.
-Technically, it should be [the Dusk aspect being Jergal/Myrkul, as they both possessed the Dusk portfolio]. Having had Jergal/Myrkul and Lathander exist at the same time, with the Dusk and Dawn portfolios existing at the same time supports Green Knight's idea of two faces of the Three-Faced-Sun being present at once. That is, of course, going on the assumption that the 'Dusk' portfolio is the compliment of the 'Dawn' and 'High Noon' portfolios. There's no reason not to think that, though, as it fits thematically.
-However, the idea of the Sun deity having three aspects that are all the same, but existing all at different times is a horrible continuity problem. There are plenty of established Lathander mentions during the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries Dale Reckoning. Jergal/Myrkul, in possession of the Dusk portfolio, have existed at the same time as Lathander and Amaunator.
-Tisk, tisk, tisk...
-However, the idea of the Sun deity having three aspects that are all the same, but existing all at different times is a horrible continuity problem. There are plenty of established Lathander mentions during the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries Dale Reckoning. Jergal/Myrkul, in possession of the Dusk portfolio, have existed at the same time as Lathander and Amaunator.
-Tisk, tisk, tisk...
I was thinking the same thing. Although to be fair, we don't have many details about how it's going to work in 4E yet.
Not saying I like it, just throwing that out there.
"And another one gone, and another one gone, another one bites the dust"
Lathander and Amaunator are the SAME god? Huh? Uhm, wait a sec, didn;t Lathander cause the Dawn Cataclysm that got Tyche poisoned by Moander and gave us Tymora and Beshaba?
I was thinking the same thing. Although to be fair, we don't have many details about how it's going to work in 4E yet.
-If one aspect can exist at a time, as was implied, as only one of the 'sun deity''s sun positions can be 'assumed' at a time, having Lathander and Myrkul exist at the same time causes major problems, and having Jergal and Amaunator exist at the same time causes problems. And, if in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries DR, the 'evening' aspect was primary, why was Lathander around?
-Two aspects of the Three-Faced Sun works best.
-I also love the fact that the Risen Sun was a heresy, and was denied by the majority of Lathander's faith as incorrect. Looks like the minority wins yet again...
Huh? Uhm, wait a sec, didn;t Lathander cause the Dawn Cataclysm that got Tyche poisoned by Moander and gave us Tymora and Beshaba?
-Yes, that was Lathander.
Amaunator, however is the god of "Suck it up and take it you filthy, peasant!"
Seriously, their doctrines couldn't be more different.
I *LIKE* Mitra.
Which, frankly, doesn't work because Lathander becoming Amaunator is a step backwards and pretty much a triumph of banality over good.
Lathander was already a Pelor like figure! He's a NG god just like Pelor!
Amaunator, however is the god of "Suck it up and take it you filthy, peasant!"
Seriously, their doctrines couldn't be more different.
I *LIKE* Mitra.
Lathander needed to grow up.
"Suck it up and take it you filthy, peasant!"
Lathander needed to grow up.
"Suck it up and take it you filthy, peasant!"
I wouldn't have as much trouble if Amaunator was a LG God and not a Neutral one.
But, honestly, if we have a LG Amaunator then why the Hell do we need Torm or Tyr?
And what's really changed if he stays NG?
I wouldn't have as much trouble if Amaunator was a LG God and not a Neutral one.
But, honestly, if we have a LG Amaunator then why the Hell do we need Torm or Tyr?
And what's really changed if he stays NG?
I guess you'll find out later Charles, just like the rest of us. You know what they say happens when you Assume right?
You make an Ass out of U and ME.:P
Yet that doesn't mean he will be the same as either of the previous versions. In fact he could become a combination of the two. (Remember this is what I can assume from my own fevered thoughts).
One we know that some aspects of the alignment can be unaligned, so it could be possible Lathanaunator could be unaligned good. Any alignment which is not evil perhaps. Perhaps the maturity of Amaunator without his **** retentive nature. Lathander's dedication to good without his ability to act without thinking. Perhaps he has evolved into a being like a male aspect of Chantea (sp?), becoming at last her perfect soulmate.
Remember this is just some raw thoughts from me. I don't have the team here with me in Canada, so I can't help you. But think about it in a new light, as one of the Lathanderites might say.
Lathander didn't die, he merely has returned to the form that he once was during the Days of Netheril.
-If I recall correctly, the Dawn Cataclysm was dated via the research of circumstantial evidence to be sometime during the days of Netheril. How could, if Lathander and Amaunator exist one at a time, as the same deity, if both were around- albeit, in different pantheons- at the same time? Another problem.
Plus I have a feeling that they wanted the Realms to have a Pelor-like figure and there you have it.
-Lathander was already like Pelor.
-The evening aspect would be Myrkul/Jergal, not Shar. Both had the 'Dusk' portfolio. Shar has the 'Night' portfolio.
But come on, let's not let FACTS get in the way of promoting Shar.:P
This is all pretty tongue-in-cheek, here--I just can't resist.;)
-I also love the fact that the Risen Sun was a heresy, and was denied by the majority of Lathander's faith as incorrect. Looks like the minority wins yet again...
I find that annoying as well.
-If I recall correctly, the Dawn Cataclysm was dated via the research of circumstantial evidence to be sometime during the days of Netheril. How could, if Lathander and Amaunator exist one at a time, as the same deity, if both were around- albeit, in different pantheons- at the same time? Another problem.
-Lathander was already like Pelor.
I don't know about that. I seem to remember Lathander being a relatively young deity and that he only came about after Amaunator had died. Unless you can show some proof that the two gods did indeed exist at the same time.
-If I recall correctly, the Dawn Cataclysm was dated via the research of circumstantial evidence to be sometime during the days of Netheril. How could, if Lathander and Amaunator exist one at a time, as the same deity, if both were around- albeit, in different pantheons- at the same time? Another problem.
Remember, the Dawn Cataclysm is supposed to be a Time Traveling thing. It occurs across all of time at once.
But come on, let's not let FACTS get in the way of promoting Shar.:P
-Oh, right, right.
Remember, the Dawn Cataclysm is supposed to be a Time Traveling thing. It occurs across all of time at once.
-Not 'time traveling', per se, but I know what you mean. It happened on a metaphysical level, and can't be explained properly applying our version of logic and such.
Though, it was dated once [161 DR], in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed [and now largely ignored] Netheril Timeline handout as I recall.
Eric Boyd first suggested that the possibility that the Dawn Cataclysm *may* have occured outside the timestream and, thus, could not be properly dated.
Though, it was dated once [161 DR], in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed [and now largely ignored] Netheril Timeline handout as I recall.
I recall that as well.
Anyway... the Dawn Cataclysm cannot be linked to the general "mortal time"
so I dont think that one could actually "prove" that Lathander and Amaunator were alive at the same time.
It is very convenient.
Not 'time traveling', per se, but I know what you mean. It happened on a metaphysical level, and can't be explained properly applying our version of logic and such.
Yeah. I think it goes like that.
-If I recall correctly, the Dawn Cataclysm was dated via the research of circumstantial evidence to be sometime during the days of Netheril. How could, if Lathander and Amaunator exist one at a time, as the same deity, if both were around- albeit, in different pantheons- at the same time? Another problem.
Gray Richardson has done most of the leg-work on dating Dawn Cataclysm, and I believe that he has some very compelling evidence that it happened near the end of Netheril or shortly thereafter.
Also, if one reads the "Faiths and Avatars" Amaunator description, it clearly says that he died about 1000 years after the Fall of Netheril (from lack of worship).
As much as I dislike even the remote possibility that Amaunator and Lathander are the same deity, there is a possibility that could help explain their co-existence. In the Netherese Pantheon Amaunator held Highsun and Jergal held Dusk after the Fall of Netheril, Highsun faded, Jergal passed Dusk to Myrkul and Lathander appears as Dawn. This seems like Three-Faced Sun to me.
Lathander (probably Talfiric Pantheon) may not have held the aspect of Dawn until after the Fall of Netheril. He may have existed as a Lesser or Intermediate deity of Athletics, Youth, Self-perfection (Apollo?) He may have come into conflict with Amaunator after that and defeated a weakened Amaunator and inherited an aspect of the Sun (in this case Dawn) and because he defeated Amaunator he is in some sense Amaunator re-born even though he already existed before that.
There is some minor evidence that when gods defeat each other they assume parts of their personalities (I'm thinking Horus and Re here and Talos and Bhaelros and Tempus NOT defeating Garagos). Maybe the new Amaunator will be LG (combining NG and LG), and maybe Lathander will "grow up" and mature somewhat.
Of course, I think they should just leave Amaunator out of the whole thing, Lathander is much more interesting by himself and also more interesting to have him try and gain the Highsun aspect instead of bringing back Amaunator.
Having them seperate but then merging would explain much.
Basically, I envisioned Lathander 'growing up' and assuming the aspect of Highsun and becoming more like Horus-Re. He'd be LG instead of NG, and his primary goal would be to remold the Faerunian Pantheon to expel the evil deities (Shar in particular). He'd lose some of his portfolios that could go to Sune, Chauntea or Selune. He look something like this:
Lathander
The Sunlord, Lord of Lords, the Righteous Crusader, the Just
Portfolios: Law, order, justice, rulership, physical prowess, righteousness, the sun, courage, and crusades.
In my mind the new Lathander would be a mix of Pelor, Pholtus, Heironeous, and Horus-Re in equal measure. He'd replace Tyr and be served by Torm.
I have been thinking about it for awhile, since the introduction of 4E, and I'd like this type of Lathander to become the dominant Church in Cormyr which would lean more toward a theocracy than currently though keep its feudal system. He'd be an awesome patron deity for Purple Dragons, Paladin's, Noble (good aligned) Warriors, Nobles and any who wish or need protection from evil or darkness, which in 4E is pretty much everyone.
Wouldn't CG be next?
Didn't, essentially Lathander grow OUT of trying to expell all of the evil deities?
Wouldn't CG be next?
The stated reason (one of them anyway) of the Dawn Cataclysm was Lathander's hope to expel the evil deities from the Faerunian Pantheon. He failed and the reason for failing is attributed to Shar.
I assume that Lathander allowed the Risen Sun heresy to prosper because he wanted to take on aspects of Amaunator and then bring about the Deliverance (the Dawn Cataclysm 2.0). His plan in my opinion was to sacrifice part of who he is (his youthful view of the world) to become more pragmatic and hardened, so that he can be the 'adult' he needs to be in order to bring about his stated aims for the pantheon and lead them to victory.
Lathander currently is a naive deity with big ideas; he's NG leaning slightly toward CG. He'd give up that, becoming more pragmatic and cynical, and I envision him as a deity who helps many of the good-aligned deities weather the storm of the Spellplague. In essence, Lathander would be somewhat of a Martyr but also the epitome of a leader, hero and champion of the light - the one deity that you'd need to stand against the coming darkness. He would ascend to take Tyr's place and bring back together the Triad.
That is MY vision for a future Lathander.
It would be an epic deific struggle with darkness vs light, evil vs good, Cyric and Shar vs Lathander and Selune.
Didn't, essentially Lathander grow OUT of trying to expell all of the evil deities?
Wouldn't CG be next?
Maybe Shar is behind this as well... Amaunator was not nearly as nice as Lathander, and by personally deciding who should stay and who should go amongst the Pantheon, he himself has become a bit of a Tyrant (which sends Bane into fits of evil giggles).
Hmmmmm... for my own personal 4e campaign...
Amaunator, the Tyrant Sun!
Played off against the Shades (Anauroch = Amaunator), I could have fun with a "lesser of two evils" scenario.
-That he was absorbed into Lathander imples that Lathander would already be existing, though, not in the Netherese pantheon. And then, of course, being reborn wouldn't.
Rich seems to think that it was the latter of course.
Gray Richardson has done most of the leg-work on dating Dawn Cataclysm, and I believe that he has some very compelling evidence that it happened near the end of Netheril or shortly thereafter.
Also, if one reads the "Faiths and Avatars" Amaunator description, it clearly says that he died about 1000 years after the Fall of Netheril (from lack of worship).
As much as I dislike even the remote possibility that Amaunator and Lathander are the same deity, there is a possibility that could help explain their co-existence. In the Netherese Pantheon Amaunator held Highsun and Jergal held Dusk after the Fall of Netheril, Highsun faded, Jergal passed Dusk to Myrkul and Lathander appears as Dawn. This seems like Three-Faced Sun to me.
Lathander (probably Talfiric Pantheon) may not have held the aspect of Dawn until after the Fall of Netheril. He may have existed as a Lesser or Intermediate deity of Athletics, Youth, Self-perfection (Apollo?) He may have come into conflict with Amaunator after that and defeated a weakened Amaunator and inherited an aspect of the Sun (in this case Dawn) and because he defeated Amaunator he is in some sense Amaunator re-born even though he already existed before that.
There is some minor evidence that when gods defeat each other they assume parts of their personalities (I'm thinking Horus and Re here and Talos and Bhaelros and Tempus NOT defeating Garagos). Maybe the new Amaunator will be LG (combining NG and LG), and maybe Lathander will "grow up" and mature somewhat.
Of course, I think they should just leave Amaunator out of the whole thing, Lathander is much more interesting by himself and also more interesting to have him try and gain the Highsun aspect instead of bringing back Amaunator.
Truly fascinating.
-Rich also thought the Tree of Souls was planted on Evermeet, so...
Yes, it's planted in Gondor.
The stated reason (one of them anyway) of the Dawn Cataclysm was Lathander's hope to expel the evil deities from the Faerunian Pantheon. He failed and the reason for failing is attributed to Shar.
I assume that Lathander allowed the Risen Sun heresy to prosper because he wanted to take on aspects of Amaunator and then bring about the Deliverance (the Dawn Cataclysm 2.0). His plan in my opinion was to sacrifice part of who he is (his youthful view of the world) to become more pragmatic and hardened, so that he can be the 'adult' he needs to be in order to bring about his stated aims for the pantheon and lead them to victory.
Lathander currently is a naive deity with big ideas; he's NG leaning slightly toward CG. He'd give up that, becoming more pragmatic and cynical, and I envision him as a deity who helps many of the good-aligned deities weather the storm of the Spellplague. In essence, Lathander would be somewhat of a Martyr but also the epitome of a leader, hero and champion of the light - the one deity that you'd need to stand against the coming darkness. He would ascend to take Tyr's place and bring back together the Triad.
That is MY vision for a future Lathander.
It would be an epic deific struggle with darkness vs light, evil vs good, Cyric and Shar vs Lathander and Selune.
I like the idea....
A LG Lathander of the Sun, Light, Order and Law...
teamed up with a LG Torm of Justice, Protection, Duty and Loyalty
Nice.
The one who says "Law is an idiotic way to achieve good when there's alittle chaos needed now and then?"
So, who would be the Neutral Good God?
The one who says "Law is an idiotic way to achieve good when there's alittle chaos needed now and then?"
Chauntea of course.
Cause nothing says like ass kicking force of goodness than the Earth Mommy...
Well you asked for a Greater God of the Neutral Good alignment.:D
Yes, it's planted in Gondor.
-No, no, the Tree-Gem of Damara was planted in Gondor.
Look at it this way. Lathander didn't die, he merely has returned to the form that he once was during the Days of Netheril. Plus I have a feeling that they wanted the Realms to have a Pelor-like figure and there you have it.
I think you mean Pholtus. Lathander was similar to Pelor. Aumanator is similar to Pholtus.
Note that Lathander/Amaunathor was actually touched upin in Lost Empires, where you could be a priest of Lathander in his aspect of Amaunathor.
And Myrkul is not an aspect of Lathander. I don't know who thought that up but let's not treat that as fact.
And Myrkul is not an aspect of Lathander. I don't know who thought that up but let's not treat that as fact.
-If Lathander is the 'dawn' aspect of this 'sun deity', as he has the 'Dawn' portfolio, and Amaunathor is the 'noon' aspect of this 'sun deity', as he has the 'High Noon' portfolio, then Jergal (and, by proxy, Myrkul) must have been the third aspect of this 'sun deity', the 'dusk' aspect, as both held the 'Dusk' portfolio.
Further proof that Lathander = Amaunator is crap, cause Jergal is not an aspect of Lathander/Amaunator, and Myrkul MOST DEFINITELY isn't an aspect, either.
-Exactly. I first brought that up in Rich's Ask-the-Author thread. I didn't label is as a question, per se, so I don't think I'll get a reply, but...
-If there wasn't some sort of 'unseen sun deity' that the three portfolios are aspects of (Dawn, Noon, Dusk), there really wouldn't be any problems. But, that they are all the same entity, linked together...Nah...
Do we have several Moon Goddesses?
For me, I say just keep Lathander as a Sun God opposed to Shar.
Besides, just because you have a Portfolio of Dawn, Highsun, and Dusk, it doesn't mean that they all have to be held by a single god.
-I agree. Obviously, however, the designers do not.
Just look at the moon. We've got the God of the New Moon (Lolth) and God of the Full Moon (Sehanine). They're not aspects of a greater moon god.
-Not in the Realms, as of right now. Sehanine Moobow is the Elven deity of the 'Moon', yes, but Lolth isn't the deity of the 'New Moon'. The closest portfolio she has to that is 'Darkness', but that can easily be attributed to the Underdarkn, and not any kind of connection to the moon.
So why do Lathander/Amaunator/etc have to be aspects of a greater sun god?
-A good question to ask the man himself, if I do say so myself. ;)
Remember that Jergal of Today is not the same as the one from Netheril or even the time before that. He is mellow now, but was more active in the past.
This might make it possible to have Lathander and/or Amaunator be sun gods with all aspects of the sun's travels.
Also remember while there are not as many sun deities in the realms, there are at least two... Horus-Re and Lathander. Yet look at the Moon dieties... One for the Drow, One for the Humans, One for the elves, one for the Mulhorandi, etc. It seems the Sun deities have merged into just a few top contenders, while the moon goddesses are not as easily merged. (Also interesting that all Sun deities are males or males portrayed as women, while the Moon deities are all female. Is there even a version of a moon goddess depicted as a male?)
HV
Quick thought: Who says that Jergal is the original and/or natural heir to the Dusk portfolio? What if he was to have stolen or taken it from the sun god during Sunny's previous incarnation as the deity of Dusk?
Remember that Jergal of Today is not the same as the one from Netheril or even the time before that. He is mellow now, but was more active in the past.
This might make it possible to have Lathander and/or Amaunator be sun gods with all aspects of the sun's travels.
Also remember while there are not as many sun deities in the realms, there are at least two... Horus-Re and Lathander. Yet look at the Moon dieties... One for the Drow, One for the Humans, One for the elves, one for the Mulhorandi, etc. It seems the Sun deities have merged into just a few top contenders, while the moon goddesses are not as easily merged. (Also interesting that all Sun deities are males or males portrayed as women, while the Moon deities are all female. Is there even a version of a moon goddess depicted as a male?)
HV
Technically Lathander is not God of the Sun. He gives the Sun Domain but he doesn't have the Sun Portfolio. Horus-Re is the only proper Sun God right now.
Quick thought: Who says that Jergal is the original and/or natural heir to the Dusk portfolio? What if he was to have stolen or taken it from the sun god during Sunny's previous incarnation as the deity of Dusk?
-There's no evidence anywhere to support any of that.
-There's no evidence anywhere to support any of that.
Yet there is no evidence against the idea. There are still quite a few mysteries in the History of the Realms. Besides, there could also be more then one deity of the Dusk, there there are of other things like the Sun and Moon.
Remember, Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absences.
Yet there is no evidence against the idea...Remember, Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absences.
-Indeed, it does not. However, it does not mean that there is a remote possibility that the idea can be true, either. Never before has a Human arbitrarily turned green, and then turned into a whale that could fly to the moon. Does that mean that this is plausible, however? No.
...but I am just being a brat here.
Dont take me serious.
hehehehe
-Indeed, it does not. However, it does not mean that there is a remote possibility that the idea can be true, either. Never before has a Human arbitrarily turned green, and then turned into a whale that could fly to the moon. Does that mean that this is plausible, however? No.
It might be if you give me the same kind of stuff you have been smoking.
Also with the right spell, a human in the realms could do what you listed. Heck, even wishes can come true in the realm, so the impossible just becomes the unlikely in the realms.
It might be if you give me the same kind of stuff you have been smoking.
-27 hours of no sleep, and a random thought of the Lunar Whale from Final Fantasy IV. You sure you want it?
Also with the right spell, a human in the realms could do what you listed. Heck, even wishes can come true in the realm, so the impossible just becomes the unlikely in the realms.
-I was talking about in the real world, not in the Forgotten Realms.
Besides, just because you have a Portfolio of Dawn, Highsun, and Dusk, it doesn't mean that they all have to be held by a single god. Just look at the moon. We've got the God of the New Moon (Lolth) and God of the Full Moon (Sehanine). They're not aspects of a greater moon god. So why do Lathander/Amaunator/etc have to be aspects of a greater sun god?
A shot in the dark: Because they want fewer gods, and are therefore combining the ones they think are too similar?
Yet there is no evidence against the idea. There are still quite a few mysteries in the History of the Realms. Besides, there could also be more then one deity of the Dusk, there there are of other things like the Sun and Moon.
Remember, Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absences.
But remember also that the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the skeptic.
Not saying you are making an out-and-out claim, though.
A shot in the dark: Because they want fewer gods, and are therefore combining the ones they think are too similar?
Damn you, woman!
Hence, the mergings that we know about make sense in that respect--two (or perhaps more?) gods turn into one.The Three-Faced-Sun Heresy is pretty interesting, but we know for a fact that it can't be true, because Jergal and Myrkul aren't aspects of an even more powerful god that Lathander and Amaunator are also a part of.
Oh, look at the mortal who thinks he knows the true nature of the gods. Robin Goodfellow knows the correct answer to that.
I think the most we can say for sure is that Jergal and Myrkul aren't currently aspects of the three-faced god. They might have been in the past, and someone else might become an aspect of the sun deity in the future, even if that person is currently a separate being. The divine isn't cut and dried.
If we wanted to make up stuff, we could also claim Lathander was a face of Corellon Latherian and the Elf God murdered Amaunator to take his stuff.
Human Gods are superior to elven gods. Corellon would have to be an aspect of either Lathander or Amaunator in that scenario.
For example...
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/den/493689524.html
Yet there is no evidence against the idea. There are still quite a few mysteries in the History of the Realms. Besides, there could also be more then one deity of the Dusk, there there are of other things like the Sun and Moon.
Remember, Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absences.
You sound like some crazed theist trying to give support to his god hypothesis....
Absence of Evidence is not Proof of Absence but it sure as hell is Evidence of Absence.
That's ridiciulous. Every human secretly wants to be an Elf. It says so in the 2nd Edition Complete Book of Elves or as it's called in the German Translation "Mein Alf."
For example...
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/den/493689524.html
Every human wants to be an elf? I find that very hard to believe. Humans are the dominant race on Faerun. They have produced some of the most powerful heroes and villans the world has ever known. Their gods are indeed some of the most powerful as well. Elves are overated. Humans are just as good, if not better.
Every human wants to be an elf? I find that very hard to believe. Humans are the dominant race on Faerun. They have produced some of the most powerful heroes and villans the world has ever known. Their gods are indeed some of the most powerful as well. Elves are overated. Humans are just as good, if not better.
Silly human. Clearly you do not understand the power of Elvish Awesome.
Silly human. Clearly you do not understand the power of Elvish Awesome.
Um I don't know if I'de show off the blood elves as an example of elvish awesomeness considering the fact that the orcs nearly wiped them off the map during the Second War. Hell, they would have burnt Quel'Thalas to the ground had it not been for the humans.
Then they got their asses handed to them by the Undead Scourge....
Not exactly proof of superiority when you're losing all the time.
Also, the shameless Elf-philia with a Zelda cosplayer is a joke.
I wouldn't know, I don't play Warcraft.
Also, the shameless Elf-philia with a Zelda cosplayer is a joke.
Zelda pwns you dreck.:P
Todesherr, I believe the issue is "The Burden of Proof is on the one forwarding the hypothesis."
Yup....that too...;)
I think, for me, the give away was that Lathander remained utterly silent on the matter when his faithful asked him, much the way Lolth was silent when transforming while that Fire Genasi (don't have my book with me atm) was running around casting miracles including A RISEN SUN.
Seems like he doesn't get to spend eternity on the Wall after all. I'm not sure Amaunator will be LG either, and wouldn't be surprised if he re-assumed his LN stances.
So, how many do we have to kill of Amauntor's worshipers until he reverts back to NG?
Kill off any lawful and/or evil worshippers and that oughta cover it. The only ones left will be neutral and/or good.
A shot in the dark: Because they want fewer gods, and are therefore combining the ones they think are too similar?
-Hmm, I think you hit it on the head.
Well, if we go by what Rich is saying, maybe centuries of worshippers.
-Let the games begin...
The character sheets posted had two alignments, Good and Unaligned. I extrapolate that there will be an Evil alignment as well.
Just saying.
Is this the point where I should ask if there is even a Lawful/Chaotic spectrum any longer in 4E?
-If I am not mistaken (and I might), I believe 'Lawful' and 'Chaotic' was taken out of the alignment axis. Can someone second this?
-If I am not mistaken (and I might), I believe 'Lawful' and 'Chaotic' was taken out of the alignment axis. Can someone second this?
Please tell me you are kidding.
The Nine Alignments have always been a hallmark of D&D. They are fascinating tools by which to play and have made for such interesting stories (Bloodwar, etc.)...how dare they?!
They are not...right?
Please tell me you are kidding.
-Sorry, I'm not kidding.
The Nine Alignments have always been a hallmark of D&D. They are fascinating tools by which to play and have made for such interesting stories (Bloodwar, etc.)...how dare they?!
-Note that the Bloodwar, as we know it, has ceased to exist as well.
-But, they are the designers. Their job is to analyze and mess with all of this stuff. They do have all of the right in the world. We don't have to agree, of course, but they are paid to do all of this stuff.
-Sorry, I'm not kidding.
-Note that the Bloodwar, as we know it, has ceased to exist as well.
-But, they are the designers. Their job is to analyze and mess with all of this stuff. They do have all of the right in the world. We don't have to agree, of course, but they are paid to do all of this stuff.
So all we have is good, evil and unaligned (neutral)?
Ridiculous and just so some 11 year old twit doesn't have to take the time to familiarise himself with the concepted of law, chaos and neutrality and how they play out in good and evil.
The Blood War never happened? Uhuh. Millenia of history wiped clean by....
This is just crazy and it seems to be getting worse.How much simpler can they make the game?! Is that the whole point?!
So all we have is good, evil and unaligned (neutral)?
-I think, yes.
The Blood War never happened? Uhuh. Millenia of history wiped clean by....
-I don't know if it's been retconned that it never happened, but I know that it's not going on anymore, as we knew of it in 2e.
How much simpler can they make the game?!
-Well, they could develop the d2 System. ;)
I seem to recall them saying that Law-Chaos was being deemphasized, not necessarily removed per se... an abstraction of an abstraction as it were. Makes alignment rather useless if you ask me... should have just chucked the whole concept down a well rather than this clap-trap. As to Lathander... I can't say I'm surprised, and it gives me yet another reason not to buy into 4e Realms... I'm still tenatively in favor of the 4e rules from what I know of them, but even that's looking kinda shaky of late.
Indeed. A LG Torm acts very differently to a CG Llira for example, just as LE Bane is diffferent to CE cyric. So now they are just evil and good and good and evil.
Meh.:embarrass
-If I am not mistaken (and I might), I believe 'Lawful' and 'Chaotic' was taken out of the alignment axis. Can someone second this?
So far it SEEMS like that's the case.
But recently, I heard about gnolls having a "Chaotic Evil" alignment or something. So, at this point I guess no one can say.
Stigg, for your still living tentative for 4th ed rules: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=999960
This is a good read, thanks for the link.
So far it SEEMS like that's the case.
But recently, I heard about gnolls having a "Chaotic Evil" alignment or something. So, at this point I guess no one can say.
-That, I've never heard, but, admittedly, I'm not staying too on top of the rule change articles. If they aren't those Countdown to the Realms things, odds are, I have't read 'em.
The Blood War never happened? Uhuh. Millenia of history wiped clean by.... This is just crazy and it seems to be getting worse.
The Blood War never happened in Default D&D World (if one even exists).
It hasn't been retconned out of Faerun.
It's probably over now, though. Asmodeus got what he wanted. Greater Godhood.
-That, I've never heard, but, admittedly, I'm not staying too on top of the rule change articles. If they aren't those Countdown to the Realms things, odds are, I have't read 'em.
Understood. The "Chaotic Evil" gnolls I only heard about second-hand, anyway. Tentitively, I would say that Law and Chaos aren't going to be as prominent in the new alignment system, even if they aren't absent.
Understood. The "Chaotic Evil" gnolls I only heard about second-hand, anyway. Tentitively, I would say that Law and Chaos aren't going to be as prominent in the new alignment system, even if they aren't absent.
-Rich gave a 'sort of' answer in his thread.
-Rich gave a 'sort of' answer in his thread.
Yes, I just saw that.
Sounds a lot like SW Saga in a lot of respects...
-Well, the Star Wars Saga Rules are a 'proto-4e' of sorts. It's the 3.75e transition to 4e.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davethegame/2303336730/sizes/o/
All of them are Chaotic Evil.
The Blood War never happened in Default D&D World (if one even exists).
It hasn't been retconned out of Faerun.
It's probably over now, though. Asmodeus got what he wanted. Greater Godhood.
Hmm....are you sure it never happened in Greyhawk world?
Asmodeus' goal was to become a greater power?
Hmm....are you sure it never happened in Greyhawk world?
Asmodeus' goal was to become a greater power?
According to Tyrants of the Nine Hells it was.
According to Tyrants of the Nine Hells it was.
Ah, never got that...
It will be interesting how they manipulate history in order for it to fit 4ed.
If we wanted to make up stuff, we could also claim Lathander was a face of Corellon Latherian and the Elf God murdered Amaunator to take his stuff.
He was, if someone believes it. And at the same time he was something else. That's the nature of the divine. They are contradictory. They contain multitudes. They lack sharp edges separating one from the next.
I don't think your example is meaningfully true, because no one associates Lathander and Corellon, and they don't share any portfolio elements. However, Sharess is a combination of Bast and Zandilar, but she is also, in some respects, a renegade aspect of Shar. Mystra was a risen mortal called Midnight, but she was also a deity born from Selûne before the beginning of the world. Kelemvor is a deified werepanther, but at the same time he is Myrkul, and he is Cyric, and he is Jergal before that. And at the same time, all of these beings are separate and even antagonistic toward another.
People who think the gods are just uberpowered NPCs won't understand how there can be hidden gods with many faces which become separate beings for a time before slowly turning, obscuring themselves from sight, sometimes showing two faces at once. But, understand it or not, it happens. In a sense that means very little at the mortal level and everything at the divine level, Myrkul is Lathander. When the Lord of Bones accepted the portfolio of dusk, he was absorbed by one of the unknowable beings that lurk behind the masks that mortals name gods (Jergal being shed like a discarded serpent skin), and an unnameable entity gazed from behind Myrkul's hollow eyes whenever that god heralded the dying of the sun. When Myrkul died he, too, was shed and the Sun turned its head slightly, allowing his noon face to be seen again and Amaunator to be reborn.
Hmm....are you sure it never happened in Greyhawk world?
I'm sure it still happened in Greyhawk, but Greyhawk isn't the core world in 4e. It never happened in the nameless default "points of light" setting implied by the 4e core rules.
I also believe Rich said Law and Chaos exist but in a different way. He could not go into detail.
I wish someone would run Saga for my goup. I keep hearing how things are cleaned up and I would like to see it for myself. I reworked the skill system for my current game and people like the more skills they get, especially the fighters.
Well if you think of Lathandar as someone who should stand up to Shar. I completely bet on Shar making him beg for mercy. Too dumb to stand up to her.
Amanautaur was officially stated as being dead pending resurrection. Oh well... Lathandar needed to grow up some.
Considering that gods have split or changed due to worshippers before, perhaps Amanataur could be a temporarily separate god created from the same god that Lathandar originally was.
I wonder whether the possibly harder times of the Spellplague and sudden addition of beings from other worlds, would cause a change in people's priorities and worship of gods, resulting in various odd effects on them.
--
As for restoring Lathandar... didn't a character in some novel lately cast a spell effecting all worshippers to effect the diety? I think it was Kiranslee who was done in by a mortal spell or something.
Oh well... Lathandar needed to grow up some.
Hold on, isn't Amaunator the immature one? He's a Lawful Neutral God.
Lathander is Good.
Why is Neutral Good associated with immaturity.
Lathander= Most Worshiped God after Chauntaea
Amaunator= Relic of a Dead Civilization.
Of course, Lathandar being immature is because he has always been portrayed that way, and all we know of Amanautor is that he was kinda harsh and basically lawful.
We have more need of gods of good than gods of Law.
-Tisk, tisk, tisk...
I don't see a problem with this at all.
Bane dies and Xvim arises with Cyric as well - so while we have the banedeath purges going on, there are still those who worship Bane, Xvim and Cyric (and Myrkul and Bhaal etc).
Just because the god may or may not be in ascendency does not mean that those of the 'faith' automatically call the current 'in favour' god by the correct name and engage in all the 'approved' religious practices.
Cults will hold dear to the words of their faith in the face of the Church saying otherwise.
If the Sun God is tripartite (and we don't know who the third aspect of Lathander/Amaunator is) then why can't all three faces be in existance at the same time? It might be that when all three faces are 'visible' then something very powerful happens so the three faces are actuallly very good/very bad for the Realms and herald a major upheaval? (Dawn Cataclyism anyone?).
I have always liked the triparite Sun God after Eric Boyd first suggested it on the Realms-L several years ago. It offers many many roleplaying opportunities for the PC's to uncover hidden and lost heresies of the Church of Lathander and then the decision whether to go public with them....... :P :evillaugh
Just my thoughts
Damian
Do we have several Moon Goddesses?
Yes - Selune, Sehanine, Shar, as well as Mask and Umberlee who's activities are somehat controlled/influenced by the Moon.
Damian
Lathander= Most Worshiped God after Chauntaea
Amaunator= Relic of a Dead Civilization.
-Don't try to make sense of it. It's easier that way.
I don't see a problem with this at all.
Bane dies and Xvim arises with Cyric as well - so while we have the banedeath purges going on, there are still those who worship Bane, Xvim and Cyric (and Myrkul and Bhaal etc).
Just because the god may or may not be in ascendency does not mean that those of the 'faith' automatically call the current 'in favour' god by the correct name and engage in all the 'approved' religious practices.
Cults will hold dear to the words of their faith in the face of the Church saying otherwise.
-I was talking about the deities themselves, not their worshippers.
Lathandar axed!!!
Confirmed where?
If it's true that the designers see Lathander and Amaunator as the same entity, then it's likely neither one is dead.
Yes - Selune, Sehanine, Shar, as well as Mask and Umberlee who's activities are somehat controlled/influenced by the Moon.
Damian
But they aren't all "moon deities".
But they aren't all "moon deities".
she is correct, Selune goddess of the moon
sehanine moonbow, elven goddess of death and rebirth and full moon( yeah they can ditch the fulll moon part and say her worshipers hold issues at night, or something)
shar goddess of the night, and darkness
umberlee beetch queen of the sea, goddess of the sea, well technically they could say she is the goddess of hurricanes and tidal waves since she is a fical mistress.... they can axe her for all i care
and mask god of thieves and shadows
Selune goddess of the moon
sehanine moonbow, elven goddess of death and rebirth and full moon( yeah they can ditch the fulll moon part and say her worshipers hold issues at night, or something)
That's why I think the merging of Selûne with Sehanine is completely stupid.
They've been hinting that Lathander/Amaunator had a connection since 2nd edition guys. Time to get with the program here. The circle is complete!
-Of course the idea that Lathander is Amaunator is not, especially when the Risen Sun was a fairly minor heresy condemned by Lathander himself, and his church.
-Of course the idea that Lathander is Amaunator is not, especially when the Risen Sun was a fairly minor heresy condemned by Lathander himself, and his church.
Apparantly Lathander didn't know what he was talking about. It wouldn't have been the first time the young deity had been wrong.
Apparantly Lathander didn't know what he was talking about. It wouldn't have been the first time the young deity had been wrong.
-Now, come on. Does that make sense? Lathander doesn't/didn't know that he is simply a cog in a greater force/concept? I don't think so.
-Now, come on. Does that make sense? Lathander doesn't/didn't know that he is simply a cog in a greater force/concept? I don't think so.
Did Xvim know that he was but an infernal cocoon for Bane? Did THAT make sense?
Did Xvim know that he was but an infernal cocoon for Bane? Did THAT make sense?
-We don't know, and yes, I think so. Think of Xvim as a 'golem' or sorts, preprogramed to do a specific tasks- gain Bane power and all of that, while he slowly nursed himself back to health.
I think it's fitting that Lathander has come full circle.
Did Xvim know that he was but an infernal cocoon for Bane? Did THAT make sense?
Did you know that we are ALL just specks of dust in the eyes of the Shopkeep?
Does THAT make sense?
Did you know that we are ALL just specks of dust in the eyes of the Shopkeep?
Does THAT make sense?
That was deep Rino, but I shall reveal to you the deepest thing ever.
I present to you "The Thrill" by Morris.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDKBJxRh_UU
He wasn't planning to be merely a husk that was going to be discarded. He thought he was in control, he thought he was going to take his father's place.
-Yes, and that was how he was created to supposed to be.
Lathander doesn't know everything.
-No one is advocating that deities be omniscient. Being aware of one's identity would make a little sense, however.
-And, you both wanna see deep? This is deep...
That was deep Rino, but I shall reveal to you the deepest thing ever.
I present to you "The Thrill" by Morris.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDKBJxRh_UU
Will watch later.
But if it doesn't feature the Shopkeep (aka "Bubba", aka Morshu), how could it be deep?-And, you both wanna see deep? This is deep...
A deep hole. Of course...
My point was that Xvim was a God. He wasn't planning to be merely a husk that was going to be discarded. He thought he was in control, he thought he was going to take his father's place. He had it all figured out until BOOOM. Lathander doesn't know everything. If he did he never would have tried the whole Dawn Disaster.
I think it's fitting that Lathander has come full circle.
I don't know. Lathander may have wanted to filter out the neutral/evil aspect of Tyche out, which he succeeded at through Tymora.
I don't know. Lathander may have wanted to filter out the neutral/evil aspect of Tyche out, which he succeeded at through Tymora.
Well, Lathander was once Tyche's lover. In the novel Tymora's Luck, we even find out that he's not "into" either Tymora or Beshaba the way he was into Tyche.
It wasn't mentioned if he wanted Tyche to be less neutral.
It wasn't mentioned if he wanted Tyche to be less neutral.
-With his sunny outlook on life (Get it! Get it!), if forced to choose between the two, Lathander would have wanted Tyche do be more good and evil.
If the Sun God is tripartite (and we don't know who the third aspect of Lathander/Amaunator is) then why can't all three faces be in existance at the same time? It might be that when all three faces are 'visible' then something very powerful happens so the three faces are actuallly very good/very bad for the Realms and herald a major upheaval? (Dawn Cataclyism anyone?).
Just a clarification on the "Three-faced Sun" idea, it's kind of like a four-sided die sitting on the table and slowly rotating. If you are looking at it you can only ever see two sides at once, occasionally, you will see only one face, but never all three at the same time. And I believe that we do know that third face besides Lathander and Amaunator was Jergal/Myrkul.
My feeling is that during the Age of Netheril Amaunator and Myrkul were the two visible faces (Sun and Dusk) and at the end of Netheril, it rotated, Amaunator "set" and Lathander "rose" (he may not have had Dawn as an portfolio until this time). Then there were two, Lathander and Jergal (who passed Dusk to Myrkul). When Myrkul was destroyed, the three-faced sun kept rotating and now we have had one face, Lathander, for a while and in 4E it looks like we will see the "setting" of Lathander and the "re-rise" of Amaunator.
What I don't like is that to make sense of this whole Amaunator/Lathander argument, we have to assume many things. We have to assume that Lathander joined onto this roller coaster willingly (would you really want to assume a portfolio that will cause you to be destroyed eventually?). We have to assume that Lathander, Amaunator and Jergal are all connected on a level greater than is currently known. Lathander isn't really "becoming" Amaunator, he already is/was Amaunator just as he's a part of Jergal/Myrkul. I would so prefer that a different god assumed highsun (someone from outside the Pantheon, an ascended mortal, anything else). I think the rumblings since 2E about Lathander have been his attempts to keep himself alive and happy.
Also, it could be that the different faces have different and unrelated alignments, Dawn = NG, Sun = LN, Dusk = NE/LE or maybe it's more basic alignments Dawn = Good, Sun = neutral, Dusk = Evil, that would seem to fit with the watered down alignment system of 4E.
I'm also going to add that I still dislike the whole idea, too many inconsistencies.
-With his sunny outlook on life (Get it! Get it!), if forced to choose between the two, Lathander would have wanted Tyche do be more good and evil.
I think you mean "more good than evil?" ;)
And yes, I get the joke. Heh.
I think you mean "more good than evil?" ;)
-Yeah, I actually wanted to write, "...Lathander would have wanted Tyche to be more good than evil."
Yes, that's the whole point of the Spellplague--it serves as a convenient "catch-all" explanation for every possible lore change.
BUT how the hell does the Spellplague not ONLY affect FR lore but core D&D lore as well?! Oerth knew about the Blood War too! The Wheel in the D&D universe was affected by the Spellplague on ONE world?! What bloody hell is going on!
I am reaching my wit's end! I don't get this 4th ed. stuff. How can they destroy 30 years of ****ing history! I AM SO ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:OMG!
BUT how the hell does the Spellplague not ONLY affect FR lore but core D&D lore as well?! Oerth knew about the Blood War too! The Wheel in the D&D universe was affected by the Spellplague on ONE world?! What bloody hell is going on!
-Don't get 'Core' D&D 4e changes and 4e Forgotten Realms changes mixed up.
Right, the Spellplague is almost certainly an FR-only phenomenon.
-Although, in the Realms, it is being used as the basis for the changes to the Planar landscape. Being as that the planar landscape of other settings will be changing as well, I wonder if everyone will get their own, unique explanation, or if the Spellplague will be used...?
-Although, in the Realms, it is being used as the basis for the changes to the Planar landscape. Being as that the planar landscape of other settings will be changing as well, I wonder if everyone will get their own, unique explanation, or if the Spellplague will be used...?
That was my point...
Cosmology changed for folks on Oerth as well...because of a Realms based death of a Realms deity of magic....so Oerthians and their gods have moved all their realms to the Astral...yeah right...
That was my point...
Cosmology changed for folks on Oerth as well...because of a Realms based death of a Realms deity of magic....so Oerthians and there gods have moved all their realms to the Astral...yeah right...
-Well, come the debut of 4e, we shall see for certain, I guess. Until then...
BUT how the hell does the Spellplague not ONLY affect FR lore but core D&D lore as well?! Oerth knew about the Blood War too! The Wheel in the D&D universe was affected by the Spellplague on ONE world?! What bloody hell is going on!
I am reaching my wit's end! I don't get this 4th ed. stuff. How can they destroy 30 years of ****ing history! I AM SO ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Something else changed it.
Gees, really.
Something else changed it.
Gees, really.
Eh?
Something else changed it.
Gees, really.
-There's going to be a lot of suspension of disbelief there. Everything changes at the same time, exactly the same time...
-Although, in the Realms, it is being used as the basis for the changes to the Planar landscape. Being as that the planar landscape of other settings will be changing as well, I wonder if everyone will get their own, unique explanation, or if the Spellplague will be used...?
I'm going to go with the idea that each setting gets their own explanation, based on the Worlds and Monsters preview book. In that book, there is a stock cosmological origin story mentioned, and there is also no mention of a Spellplague.
Of course, what's in the preview book is certainly subject to change by the time the 4E core books get published.
Eh?
Let's not really get overly critical.
In Greyhawk, The Grand Snugglewupkus changed it.
Just because the changes are identical in FR doesn't mean anything because they're different campaign settings.
It's better than "Vecna rewrites the Universe."
-I'm not familiar with that, but it implies, at least, that the universe is changing. Vecna might be able to do that. The death of Mystra, who was important in only one (that we know of) Crystal Sphere?
The Fane of Shadows is a church of the God of Shadows... not of one world, but ALL WORLDS! Inside the church, the biggest and most prominent statue is Shar, and it is indicated that SHE built it, and it travels to -and has powers in - EVERY SINGLE OTHER PRIME MATERIAL PLANE!!!
The books also mention that Cyric is multi-spheric (he has a Chosen from another world). What that means is that Shar and Cyric are both just Faerunian names for much older, more primordial powers, and those are merely their FR aspects. Also, it is indicated that the Weave permeates other planes as well, meaning that Mystra has always had some control there. Since it was Mystra's Weave that blocked spells above 9th level, why is it they were blocked on EVERY SINGLE WORLD as well? Hmmmm?
I look at (Abeir)Toril as a 'fulcrum Point' in the Universe, and what happens there gets 'mirrored' everywhere else. That means that Shar, Selûne (also mentioned as an aspect of the primordial 'Moon Goddess', who is more then likely Sehanine), Mystryl, and probably a dozen others (Ghaunadar?) are ancient, primordial (Universal) powers, who have aspects in most other prime planes.
And that is why, my friends, what happens in FR, DOESN'T stay in FR. :P
In Greyhawk, The Grand Snugglewupkus changed it.
Wasn't it Iuz? He got all angry and 'threw down' with half the planet, pretty much re-arranging most of the map?
Inside the church, the biggest and most prominent statue is Shar, and it is indicated that SHE built it, and it travels to -and has powers in - EVERY SINGLE OTHER PRIME MATERIAL PLANE!!!
-Two things. If I recall correctly, the statue of Shar was the largest statue that Cale & Co. saw. It is quite possible that there were other, larger statues, that Cale and the others simply did not see. There was a lot in the Fane of Shadows that they did not get to see. Secondly, I believe that the existence of the Fane of Shadows lends creedence to the idea that Shar discovered the framework for the Shadow Weave elsewhere, and 'imported' it to Realmspace.
elsewhere
Yeah, it's called Birthright.
Yeah, it's called Birthright.
-It took me like three minutes to figure out what you were referencing. ;)
-Yes, perhaps it was...Birthrightspace (That doesn't sound correct, but whatever). Who knows? Only Shar. And, she's the goddess of secrets...
Yeah, it's called Birthright.
HA!
Haven't looked at those books in forever, and don't even own any to look it up.
-A couple of them can be downloaded for free at the WotC site's downloads section.
Indeed true, but I have no reason to download them in the first place. ;)
-Hey, free is free. I am going to take my own advice, and download them just because. You never know when they might stop offering all of those free downloads. The more you download, the more metaphorical bang you get for the nonexistent buck.
The books also mention that Cyric is multi-spheric (he has a Chosen from another world). What that means is that Shar and Cyric are both just Faerunian names for much older, more primordial powers, and those are merely their FR aspects. Also, it is indicated that the Weave permeates other planes as well, meaning that Mystra has always had some control there. Since it was Mystra's Weave that blocked spells above 9th level, why is it they were blocked on EVERY SINGLE WORLD as well? Hmmmm?
Nope, Cyric is just a century old.
And why not?
Also, just because there's a Multiverse in FR doesn't mean that its dripping in alternate worlds.
Nope, Cyric is just a century old.
-At the point of the novel is taking place, he is much less than a century. He's spent about twenty years old, or so, as a divine entity.
-Two things. If I recall correctly, the statue of Shar was the largest statue that Cale & Co. saw. It is quite possible that there were other, larger statues, that Cale and the others simply did not see.
That's the point of view I'm inclined to take--although, I certainly don't remember the exact details of the text.
I don't consider Shar to be THE goddess of darkness, everywhere. But that's just me...if someone else likes the idea, they are free to run with it.
I don't consider Shar to be THE goddess of darkness, everywhere.
-I don't, either. Even though I like Realmspace, I really don't think it should be, or warrants, being the "center" of the Multiverse, or whatever. I don't like this newish idea of there being "higher entities" puppeteering deities, either. Like with Lathander and Amauntaur (sp?) being two aspects of a "higher entity" sun deity.
-I don't, either. Even though I like Realmspace, I really don't think it should be, or warrants, being the "center" of the Multiverse, or whatever.
Nor do I.
Great minds think alike.;)
Great minds think alike.;)
-Yes, yes they do.
I like the idea of the Realms as close to the center of the Omniverse... not the center, a couple of steps removed really, but as close to it as most mortals get.
-Why?
-Just like I have no problem dealing with the fact that my specific PC isn't the, to quote Bret Hart, "the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be", I have no problem with the fact that Realmspace is just one obscure, nowhere in particular Crystal Sphere in the sea of Phwhateveritwascalled, with countless others.
But much like LK, my Realms is just one of countless other words, and it's certainly not the "first and foremost." It's one thing for Toril to be physically the center (though I don't go for that), but I don't see it as being at the center as in "primary." The gods of Toril are not "better" than the gods of other worlds.
The gods of Toril are not "better" than the gods of other worlds.
-Or, more important, more special, more primary, and so on. Maybe I have a mediocrity complex. I hope not...
Essentially, one has to remember that I run a very Fae-centric campaign, so the model works something like this...
1) Faerie (the Dreaming from C:tD really)
2) The Planes (Great Ring version)
3) Umbra (WoD version)
4) Awakened Worlds (Realms, Greyhawk, etc)
5) Sleeper Worlds (present but hidden supernatural existance)
6) Mundane Worlds (Real World sorts of stuff)
All of these exist together in a series of layers of 'reality' that are technically accessible to each other if one has the means, with rare, naturally occurring gates between them. The Dreaming is coterminus with everything for the most part, and the rest works pretty much the way its supposed to.
The general idea with the Awakened worlds is that its where the myths and legends of the various mundane worlds actually live and breath, with different layers depending on who's looking at it... its a very subjective layer of the cosmology really, and actually very difficult to explain concisely... a human would go there and find worlds that reflected various cultural perceptions (European, Mayan, etc), while... say a would go and find worlds that reflected various cultures and myths. Sort of... I suppose a decent way of putting it is each layer is defined by how much or how little the seperation between the umbra and the real world there actually is, using the W:tA definitions of it.
Heh, that wasn't what I was getting at actually... though given the pantheons of Greyhawk and Eberron, I am far more inclined towards the classic Faerunian pantheon over them... but that's personal preference.
-I agree with this. However, that aside, I wouldn't want WotC to literally make Realmspace a more important place than Krynnspace, Greyspace, Eberronspace, or any other Crystal Sphere.
Officially? That would really be bad actually... one thing to do it at home, that's a DMs issue, but official, this setting trumps you all sort of thing would be an incredibly bad idea.
-Yes, that's what I mean. Unless I specifically state that I am not, I am always taking about "officially". Making Realmspace more important than other Crystal Spheres places undue and unwarranted attention on it, and causes bad blood with other campaign settings, and players.
I have to admit, I find that true with Greyhawk for 3.x, a setting I never really liked that much, but having the 'core' stuff quasi-geared towards it tended to aggravate me more than it probably should have.
-Better "them" than "us", right? ;)
heh, maybe. Though I'll admit seeing the Red Wizard in the DMG really turned me off of them...
-I don't approve of any specific element of a campaign setting, be it Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Birthright, whatever, that is "stupified", and turned into Core Material, with no real relation to where it came from.
-Did the DMG version of the Red Wizard mention Thay, and the traditional Red Wizards? I don't have the 3.5e DMG, so...
-Or, more important, more special, more primary, and so on. Maybe I have a mediocrity complex. I hope not...
You don't.
And you aren't limited to Realmspace, remember?You don't.
-On the boards, sure. But, in real life. I am a totally different person. For whatever the reason, I don't have qualms typing things and stuff like that that I'd never actually say/do in real life.
And you aren't limited to Realmspace, remember?
-No? I know I have KidSixXx as my puppet ruler of Eberronspace, but other than that?
-On the boards, sure. But, in real life. I am a totally different person. For whatever the reason, I don't have qualms typing things and stuff like that that I'd never actually say/do in real life.
Doesn't mean you have a mediocrity complex.
Although of course, you'd know yourself better than I would. Having met you in person, you did not strike me as having a mediocrity complex.
-No?
No!
Although of course, you'd know yourself better than I would. Having met you in person, you did not strike me as having a mediocrity complex.
-I think I am recently (within the past year or so) realizing that I did have one, and am slowly getting over it.
No!
-You're right! I do exist in real life!! :D
-I think I am recently (within the past year or so) realizing that I did have one, and am slowly getting over it.
In that case, I'm happy to hear that.