I guess Elistraee will become less good and Lolth will go after Ghaunader the Slime Lord...
Anyone one in the know?
it, stay dead?!I'm not too thrilled with the direction Eilistraee is going. There are just so many problems with whats going on here, I just can't begin to list them all. I think this is a function of the story being dictated to Smedmon, not her really wanting to go in this direction. Of course I could be wrong. It would be nice to hear her thoughts on the matter, but that won't happen. We wouldn't want her to bite that hand that feeds :P
Personally, I'd like to see Eilistraee transmute the newly gained power into reforming herself into the image she wants, shrugging off the taint, casting it aside. Given that she changes the more gods she kills, how would she not change into the evil creature that Lolth is if she wins? I just think its silly to force Eilistraee to instantly absorb and incorporate diametrically opposed portfolios into her essence. This is just another example of the poorly conceived 4e Realms.
Two times before, Mystra has died and been replaced very quickly. Now, Ao just throws his hands up and says it, stay dead?!
Well, even Overgods have a limited number of patients. :P Three strikes, and you're out! Seriously, though, how lame would it be to bring Mystra back only to kill her again when 5th Edition comes out, as they've already stated it will. Let the woman rest in peace, damn it!
Second, I actually like the changes made to Elistraee and her becoming the Masked Lady. I find it an interesting character and much more likely to sway Drow away from Lolth than the old Elistraee.
eilistraee will become evil: the community is going to be agitated
elistraee dies or becomes a captive: the community is going to be agitated
lolth dies: the part of the community that wants to kill off all good drow will be agitated
the alignment change of Eilistraee : even
Well, even Overgods have a limited number of patients. :P Three strikes, and you're out! Seriously, though, how lame would it be to bring Mystra back only to kill her again when 5th Edition comes out, as they've already stated it will. Let the woman rest in peace, damn it!
Second, I actually like the changes made to Elistraee and her becoming the Masked Lady. I find it an interesting character and much more likely to sway Drow away from Lolth than the old Elistraee.
You missed the point, and that point was the way they ignored any shred of continuity.
I'm not too thrilled with the direction Eilistraee is going. There are just so many problems with whats going on here, I just can't begin to list them all. I think this is a function of the story being dictated to Smedmon, not her really wanting to go in this direction. Of course I could be wrong.
No, you are correct.
As for myself, I feel this series is ruining things about the Realms that I liked, in particular Eilistraee.
I, for one, am not holding my breath on that one...
Neither am I.
-That said, I am of the opinion that Lolth is going to die at the end of the novel saga. Sure, sure, AGHotR doesn't say that, but hear me out. Eilistraee's prophecy has stated that...her proper name is escaping me at the moment...Mel-whatever, was to kill Lolth. She is the Lady Penitent now. Her hatred towards Lolth has not disappeared, however. If anything, it has only grown. The Lady Penitent will kill Danifae-Lolth, becoming Lolth herself. This also allows the designers to alter Lolth's personality/etc. for the coming 4e release without retcons, and so on.
-That said, I am of the opinion that Lolth is going to die at the end of the novel saga. Sure, sure, AGHotR doesn't say that, but hear me out. Eilistraee's prophecy has stated that...her proper name is escaping me at the moment...Mel-whatever, was to kill Lolth. She is the Lady Penitent now. Her hatred towards Lolth has not disappeared, however. If anything, it has only grown. The Lady Penitent will kill Danifae-Lolth, becoming Lolth herself. This also allows the designers to alter Lolth's personality/etc. for the coming 4e release without retcons, and so on.
Hmm, I've thought that myself. But, I'm actually thinking its going to be a bit more of a twist. I think Cavatina will deal the killing blow, not Hallistra, making Cavatina the new Lolth. I guess we will have to wait and see hehe
This is why the novels have gone too far. The gods as protaginists in novels should have stopped at the Avatar books and the Cyric novel should never have been published. Hopefully after Kemps series (which I like) and Smeds we do not see anymore of the gods in novels.
That would be nice
Still, I've enjoyed the series so far. I like Smedman's writing. Feels like Eilistraee really is going through a dance as she plays against Lolth in their cosmic game of sava.
My thoughts on the final book:
I have a feeling that Qilue will die, and that a final choice by the Lady Penitent will determine the outcome. Halistraa will probably lose to Cavatina, but perhaps after H. kills Qilue (and Lolth may absorb her spirit into herself as a "reward"). The Lord of Slime will probably turn his back on Lolth in some kind of treacherous moment. Cavatina will probably inherit leadership of the Eilistraeans, and the archmage and his students will somehow be responsible (accidentally) for pulling apart Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (reinstating him, and returning her to her previous nature). Because of all the losses on both sides, both of them will technically "lose" and the sava may end in a draw.
As for Elistraee the same holds true. I for one am hoping both the Masked Lady and Lolth stick around. The Masked Lady makes more sense for Drow than a goodie-goodie goddess, who in essence, didn't really possess a single value the Drow held dear. She was a cultural anathema. A Chaotic Neutral Elistraee has a much wider appeal. She doesn't exclude evil Drow who want freedom from Lolth, nor does she exclude good aligned Drow (however rare they may be) who want freedom from Lolth. She's more of a uniter.
Regardless of what I do in regard to 4E or what happens I plan to bring the Masked Lady along for the ride. She's going to be the goddess of Drow Rebellion and Intrigue. She will be in direct opposition to Lolth who is the goddess of the Drow who is basically slowly destroying them from the inside. Those who want to see the Drow rise up as a strong an unified people will turn to Elistraee and those who promote the status quo will continue to embrace Lolth, while Elistraees worshipers hide in the shadows and act, more or less, as saboteurs and terrorists against the establishment. Ghaunadaur will leave the Drow Pantheon and join the Faerûnian Pantheon.
A new Lolth for FR would be bad imo.
-The current Lolth is a "new" one.
-The current Lolth is a "new" one.
Wait... how do you mean?
Wait... how do you mean?
-Have you read the War of the Spider Queen series, the "prequel", so to speak, of the Lady Penitent trilogy?
-Have you read the War of the Spider Queen series, the "prequel", so to speak, of the Lady Penitent trilogy?
Yes, but I thought you meant Lolth was "swapped out" with another soul / being. I wouldn't necessarily count her silence and chrysalis-emergence (for lack of a better description) as making her new per se.
Yes, but I thought you meant Lolth was "swapped out" with another soul / being. I wouldn't necessarily count her silence and chrysalis-emergence (for lack of a better description) as making her new per se.
-There is a clear difference between the Lolth before the Silence of Lolth, and the Lolth after the Silence of Lolth, thus allowing us to use the monkiers "old" and "new". The "new" Lolth's attitudes, physical appearance, manerisms, and goals are quite varied from those of the "old" Lolth.
-The same goes for Mystra, as there is always a distinction made between Mystryl, Mystra, and Mystra (Midnight).
-There is a clear difference between the Lolth before the Silence of Lolth, and the Lolth after the Silence of Lolth, thus allowing us to use the monkiers "old" and "new". The "new" Lolth's attitudes, physical appearance, manerisms, and goals are quite varied from those of the "old" Lolth.
But she's still the same "spirit" or "soul", despite the changes.
-The same goes for Mystra, as there is always a distinction made between Mystryl, Mystra, and Mystra (Midnight).
Sort of. As you know:
Mystryl was the "original" made from energies of Selune and Shar.
Mystra (1) was Mystryl's re-creation of herself after the Karsus incident.
Mystra (2) is technically the spirit of the human woman Midnight, ascended and given greater deity powers by AO.
But she's still the same "spirit" or "soul", despite the changes.
-Not entirely. Just as Mystra (Midnight) absorbed and incorporated the soul of Midnight, so, too, did the "new" Lolth absorb and incorporate Danifae's soul.
Mystryl was the "original" made from energies of Selune and Shar.
Mystra (1) was Mystryl's re-creation of herself after the Karsus incident.
Mystra (2) is technically the spirit of the human woman Midnight, ascended and given greater deity powers by AO.
-Correct, except for the third point, and even then, mostly correct. Mystra (Midnight) is the spirit of the Human woman Midnight (Ariel Manx) and the essence of Mystra. To safeguard the Weave, the essence of Mystra travels from incarnation to incarnation, to prevent what happened to Karsus (not knowing how to handle the Weave) from happening. This is why Midnight, upon apotheosis, was able to control and handle the repairs to the Weave.
-Not entirely. Just as Mystra (Midnight) absorbed and incorporated the soul of Midnight, so, too, did the "new" Lolth absorb and incorporate Danifae's soul.
These are -very- different imo. Midnight -is- the guiding spirit behind the old Mystra's portfolio and "essense" (or energies).
Danifae was absorbed, and the spirit of the original goddess is still more than actively there. Lolth took the upper form of Danifae, and yes absorbed her spiritual energy as well, but Lolth would never allow (imo) another entity's personality or spirit overwhelm her own. Besides, the personality of Danifae was essentially akin to her own. Now, if she had absorbed Halisstra or Quenthel, there might have been some personality differences or changes, but nothing about the old Lolth -really- changed when she absorbed Danifae and took her face / upper body. She's still the actual mother of Eilistraee, not a replacement with the same name.
-Correct, except for the third point, and even then, mostly correct. Mystra (Midnight) is the spirit of the Human woman Midnight (Ariel Manx) and the essence of Mystra. To safeguard the Weave, the essence of Mystra travels from incarnation to incarnation, to prevent what happened to Karsus (not knowing how to handle the Weave) from happening. This is why Midnight, upon apotheosis, was able to control and handle the repairs to the Weave.
This "essence" of Mystra, such as it is, isn't a spirit. All of the Chosen have part of this essence, and one might argue that the Weave itself is made up of such essence. But I wouldn't say that the Chosen have a part of Mystra's "soul" inside them, just a portion of her power/energy. That's why I'd draw a distinction, in that the soul or spirit of the original Mystryl/Mystra is gone. The energy of Mystra is a tool of the "office", in much the same way as Torm's sword and armor is a tool of his "office" but aren't "him".
At least, that's how I see it. You can see things a little differently, perhaps, as does everyone. But for me, the distinction is a clear one.
What if Eilistraee triumphs over Lolth but refuses to take up her portfolio? Lolth's followers would be completely powerless. The clergy that powers Drow cities would become impotent. Leaving millions of drow at the mercy of the Aboleths . what if this faction of Aboleths mentioned in The Orc King and in the Count Down to the Realms articles even manages to take over Skullport, right below the feet of the Waterdhavians? The Promenade Temple would fall and the followers of Eilistraee would be scattered to the four winds, leading to Drizzt's statement. The Drow in the 4th edition realms might be a completely refugee race. Former Lolth followers bereft of their goddess, Eilistraee worshipers would have vindication but no place to call home and a large population of drow ripe for converting. This would certainly give realms drow a unique flavor compared to drow in other settings.
A new Lolth for FR would be bad imo.
Still, I've enjoyed the series so far. I like Smedman's writing.
I do too, but in this case the story itself is dampening most of the enjoyment I'm getting from it.
I preferred her earlier work, such as the House of Serpents trilogy and the Sembia stories about Larajin. Those were fun reads without forced deicides.
I was using a Alias similiricam (sp?) in my campaign. I like those stories that are "quasiepic" and can effect a region but not the whole world and usually by the end of the story the world is still unchanged. Night Parade was a big fav of mine as well.
Her Yuan-ti books were golden. It made the whole nation come to life. If I did use the idea of a Yuan-ti nation ever it will be modeled after that.
Her Yuan-ti books were golden. It made the whole nation come to life. If I did use the idea of a Yuan-ti nation ever it will be modeled after that.
Agreed, totally.
Danifae was absorbed, and the spirit of the original goddess is still more than actively there.
-Just like when Midnight achieved apotheosis, the knowledge of the original Mystra was very much apparent.
She's still the actual mother of Eilistraee, not a replacement with the same name.
-Just like the current deity of magic, Mystra (Midnight) is Mystryl, and not a replacement with the same name.
This "essence" of Mystra, such as it is, isn't a spirit. All of the Chosen have part of this essence, and one might argue that the Weave itself is made up of such essence.
-The 'essence' of Mystra is whatever deities are made of. Being as that they are, more or less, "globs" of divine energy, Mystra's essence is pure divine energy.
At least, that's how I see it. You can see things a little differently, perhaps, as does everyone. But for me, the distinction is a clear one.
-You, of course, are wrong. :P
-No, I'm kidding. As you said, you're going to see it your way, I'm going to see it mine, and thus...
Has anyone considered this "Abolethic Sovereignty" and its rise to be the source of Drizzt's "where are they now?" statement?
-Nope. The Abolethic Soverigny is seated in the Aboleth city of Xxithpu (or some such. I don't feel like looking it up. See the Abeir FAQ), and is connected to the Traitor, in Stardeep. Ghaundaur deals with slimes and oozes, thus far, and not Aberrations, who have their own deities/creators.
This "essence" of Mystra, such as it is, isn't a spirit. All of the Chosen have part of this essence, and one might argue that the Weave itself is made up of such essence. But I wouldn't say that the Chosen have a part of Mystra's "soul" inside them, just a portion of her power/energy. That's why I'd draw a distinction, in that the soul or spirit of the original Mystryl/Mystra is gone. The energy of Mystra is a tool of the "office", in much the same way as Torm's sword and armor is a tool of his "office" but aren't "him".
At least, that's how I see it. You can see things a little differently, perhaps, as does everyone. But for me, the distinction is a clear one.
The memory and fragments of the personality of the predecessor tend to be passed on as well. Either directly, Mystril to Mystra or indirectly, El and Azuth shifting much of Mystra to Midnight.
and the Cyric novel should never have been published.
Can I get that sentiment carved really large into metal or stone and hung somewhere prominent.
but I think it's pretty sad and silly to keep bringing her back so she can be killed again and again.
Agreed, but my preference is that they leave her around. There must be a way to alter magic that does not involve killing off the standing Mystra in foolish ways. Heck, a failed attempt to take the Shadow Weave could easily have damaged the Weave and led to alterations in the way magic works. It's at least as reasonable as Cyric killing her off in the heart of her home plane and escaping unscathed.
-Just like when Midnight achieved apotheosis, the knowledge of the original Mystra was very much apparent.
Really? I didn't get that impression at all. However, I'd be -glad- to be wrong about this. One of the things I absolutely hated about ToT was the idea of humans becoming -greater- deities without any knowledge or memories that would bridge them into divinity. It just seemed really dumb that the rapid gain in power and divine perception didn't immediately crush their human psyches under the weight of becoming not only a new divinity but a new greater divinity. So if memories and spirit-stuff (or actual remnants of the prior god's experience or "soul") -are- transferred with ascension, it would completely change my negative perspective about the whole ToT deal. Just tell me where to look.
-You, of course, are wrong. :P
-No, I'm kidding. As you said, you're going to see it your way, I'm going to see it mine, and thus...
:P LOL, no joke though, I'd be glad to see something more on this that implies survival of the prior deity (in some sense), even if it's not spelled out in detail. I couldn't bring myself to read it more than once, though, so it's entirely possible that I missed it.
I guess part of my impression comes from Cyric (who didn't seem to change all that much after getting the portfolios he did), Midnight still seemed -really- human, and Kelemvor didn't seem altered by gaining Myrkul's portfolio.
I suppose it's arguable that the spirit essence of Myrkul wasn't transferred to Kelemvor (as it remains in that crown), and perhaps Bhaal's spirit essence remains largely in that bridge/river (or his "children", depending on that wonky canon). Or perhaps Cyric just wasn't all that different in personality from Bhaal, Bane (briefly), and Myrkul (briefly)... and he -did- go mad after all.
Really? I didn't get that impression at all. However, I'd be -glad- to be wrong about this. One of the things I absolutely hated about ToT was the idea of humans becoming -greater- deities without any knowledge or memories that would bridge them into divinity. It just seemed really dumb that the rapid gain in power and divine perception didn't immediately crush their human psyches under the weight of becoming not only a new divinity but a new greater divinity. So if memories and spirit-stuff (or actual remnants of the prior god's experience or "soul") -are- transferred with ascension, it would completely change my negative perspective about the whole ToT deal.
-Of course. The reason Karsus was not able to supplant Mystryl as the deity of magic was because he could not fathom the...massiveness of the Weave, of being a divine entity, and how to make the constant repairs that the Weave needed (and continued to need) in order to prevent it from unraveling. Had Midnight not have this information availible to her upon her apotheosis, the same thing would have happened to her. But, instead, being as that the essence of Mystra merged with her own essence, Midnight absorbed through osmosis the knowledge that Mystra had, and, in turn, because Mystra herself, rather than Midnight. Like the Christian concept of G-d, Mystra (Midnight) retains her own persona, and yet, the two have merged. The are seperate, and yet, the same.
Really? I didn't get that impression at all. However, I'd be -glad- to be wrong about this. One of the things I absolutely hated about ToT was the idea of humans becoming -greater- deities without any knowledge or memories that would bridge them into divinity. It just seemed really dumb that the rapid gain in power and divine perception didn't immediately crush their human psyches under the weight of becoming not only a new divinity but a new greater divinity. So if memories and spirit-stuff (or actual remnants of the prior god's experience or "soul") -are- transferred with ascension, it would completely change my negative perspective about the whole ToT deal. Just tell me where to look.
Shadows of the Avatar trilogy or Elminster in Hell don't remember which shows El passing knowledge on from Mystra to Midnight. AO locks it away but presumably after she took office, AO removed the block. Also a memory pops up in Elminster in Hell where one of the reasons that Midnight cuts off physical intimacy with El is that she can feel the old Mystra moving within her whenever it occurs and she'd prefer to avoid her predecessor moving around too much in her mind. I can't say that this occurs with other powers but the two references I'm thinking of and comments on Candlekeep tend to say part of the old Mystra lived on in Midnight.
-Of course. The reason Karsus was not able to supplant Mystryl as the deity of magic was because he could not fathom the...massiveness of the Weave, of being a divine entity, and how to make the constant repairs that the Weave needed (and continued to need) in order to prevent it from unraveling. Had Midnight not have this information availible to her upon her apotheosis, the same thing would have happened to her. But, instead, being as that the essence of Mystra merged with her own essence, Midnight absorbed through osmosis the knowledge that Mystra had, and, in turn, because Mystra herself, rather than Midnight. Like the Christian concept of G-d, Mystra (Midnight) retains her own persona, and yet, the two have merged. The are seperate, and yet, the same.
Hm, to me that actually argues -against- the idea that memories and spirit-stuff transfer with godly power. Apparently he didn't gain the memories and experience of Mystryl (at least some of them) when he gained the power over all magic (the greater portion of her power). Mystryl's last act was to sever Karsus' link to the Weave, which killed him, and she then recreated herself as Mystra (and regained her stolen power since K was dead). See what I mean? It suggests that memories and experience aren't part of the "power" or "essence" of divinity, otherwise Karsus would have been able to regulate the Weave.
Shadows of the Avatar trilogy or Elminster in Hell don't remember which shows El passing knowledge on from Mystra to Midnight. AO locks it away but presumably after she took office, AO removed the block. Also a memory pops up in Elminster in Hell where one of the reasons that Midnight cuts off physical intimacy with El is that she can feel the old Mystra moving within her whenever it occurs and she'd prefer to avoid her predecessor moving around too much in her mind. I can't say that this occurs with other powers but the two references I'm thinking of and comments on Candlekeep tend to say part of the old Mystra lived on in Midnight.
Ah, that may explain it. I never read all of the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy. For some reason, I couldn't get book 2 from Amazon. And so I never finished 2 or 3.
Ah, that may explain it. I never read all of the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy. For some reason, I couldn't get book 2 from Amazon. And so I never finished 2 or 3.
I had a tendency to skim but the scene is memorably, just not certain of the location. I have a tendency to remember Mystra data, a point which rather soon may become redundant.
I should point out that that while legitimate heirs to Mystra's power (Karsus was attempting to steal it, illegitimate, no perks) do tend to gain knowledge either through absorbing a great deal of her (Mystril to Mystra), or having a great deal transferred by her (Mystra to Midnight), I have no on-hand references guaranteeing such events in many other cases.
Hm, to me that actually argues -against- the idea that memories and spirit-stuff transfer with godly power. Apparently he didn't gain the memories and experience of Mystryl (at least some of them) when he gained the power over all magic (the greater portion of her power). Mystryl's last act was to sever Karsus' link to the Weave, which killed him, and she then recreated herself as Mystra (and regained her stolen power since K was dead). See what I mean? It suggests that memories and experience aren't part of the "power" or "essence" of divinity, otherwise Karsus would have been able to regulate the Weave.
-Because Karsus and Mystryl were seperate entities. Midnight and Mystra were/are not.
-Because Karsus and Mystryl were seperate entities. Midnight and Mystra were/are not.
Hm, seems like Karsus was linked to Mystryl for the duration of his spell (not that long, I know). Eh, seems arguable either way. Or I'm just hard to convince. ;)
Hm, seems like Karsus was linked to Mystryl for the duration of his spell (not that long, I know). Eh, seems arguable either way. Or I'm just hard to convince. ;)
-The instant Karsus "linked" (as this term is extemely broad) himself with Mystryl, it was already too late. All in the same instant, his spell completed itself, he stole the mantle of deity from magic from Mystryl, Karsus realized his folly, so to speak, Mystryl ended her existence, and Karsus' soul was torn asunder, and his body petrified (on the Material Plane, and on the Astral Plane). Midnight had already "bonded" with Mystra, for a lack of better words before her apotheosis.
The FR are supposed to be moved closer to the DnD-Core.
From James Wyatt's 'A Fractured Family'-DnD-Core-Article:
"Sehanine, god of the full moon, was fair-skinned and dark-haired, while Lolth, god of the new moon, was the opposite."
Considering, that in the FR's Lloth is currently batteling Eilistraee, who happens to be a (now shadowy) moongoddess, you now can probably guess who will win and take up the others portfolio in 4ed FR.
Eilistraee will probably die and Lloth will become more like the Core-Lolth by absorbing the portfolio.
Or Eilistraee wins and by absorbing Lloth's power turns evil, and after a few years being evil she becomes the new Lloth.
If you ask me both options suck. I hope i'll be proven wrong and Eilistraee survies as a neutral goddess.
And adressing the 'sub-topic' of this thread: I hope there will be twist in this 'Cyric-killing-Mystra-Story'...maybe Mystra, realizing, that she herself is in the way of Magic being neutral allows Cyric to kill her, kicking kis butt by telling him she tricked him into becoming the scape-goat for the spellplage (and thuse making sure he suffers, just as she promised him in Waterdeep).
And maybe we will see some nice reunion of Midnight and Kelemvor as the God of the Dead collects Midnights essence and she becomes some sort of Persephone to Kelemvor (until the day they recreate a goddess of magic and Mystra is reborn)?
Best wishes
Lirdolin
From James Wyatt's 'A Fractured Family'-DnD-Core-Article:
"Sehanine, god of the full moon, was fair-skinned and dark-haired, while Lolth, god of the new moon, was the opposite."
-Of course, that article is specifically addressing 4e Core D&D. The Forgotten Realms have always had a completely different story than Core/Grayhawk has/had.
Up until now anyway...
-There is only so much I can see being done.
-Of course, that article is specifically addressing 4e Core D&D. The Forgotten Realms have always had a completely different story than Core/Grayhawk has/had.
I know it's core, but as I also wrote 'the FR are supposed to get closer to core' (suck), as 'all books of 4ed are Core' (yuck), and considering that (and Drizzt talks about some disaster connected to Eilistraee) I think it's a bad omen for the novel that Core-Lloth now is also a (dark) moongoddess .
Lirdolin
Guess we'll find out if our pessimism or optimism was warranted come the release of 4e FR... I'm tending towards pessimism at the moment myself.
Same here :raincloud
I know it's core, but as I also wrote 'the FR are supposed to get closer to core' (suck), as 'all books of 4ed are Core' (yuck), and considering that (and Drizzt talks about some disaster connected to Eilistraee) I think it's a bad omen for the novel that Core-Lloth now is also a (dark) moongoddess .
Lirdolin
-Understood. Like I said, however, the Forgotten Realms have their own unique version of the "Lolth Creation Mythos". A lot of Forgotten Realms history has been written with that specific story in mind. That said, I don't think it can be arbitrarily changed without things untangling. To use a Drow-esque analogy, it's a web. Once the center is torn, the entire thing loses it's structural integrity.
-Understood. Like I said, however, the Forgotten Realms have their own unique version of the "Lolth Creation Mythos". A lot of Forgotten Realms history has been written with that specific story in mind. That said, I don't think it can be arbitrarily changed without things untangling. To use a Drow-esque analogy, it's a web. Once the center is torn, the entire thing loses it's structural integrity.
I've always thought of the Seldarine as existing in both the Realms and Greyhawk simultaneously. That means Aurashnee's fall to become Lolth was the same in GH as it was in FR, the difference only in the details and of the children (Eilistraee and Vhaeraun) only having enough influence to remain in FR. This for me was a reason I loved Planescape as well and considered FR as a rather large piece of the same pie.
-That said, I am of the opinion that Lolth is going to die at the end of the novel saga. Sure, sure, AGHotR doesn't say that, but hear me out. Eilistraee's prophecy has stated that...her proper name is escaping me at the moment...Mel-whatever, was to kill Lolth. She is the Lady Penitent now. Her hatred towards Lolth has not disappeared, however. If anything, it has only grown. The Lady Penitent will kill Danifae-Lolth, becoming Lolth herself. This also allows the designers to alter Lolth's personality/etc. for the coming 4e release without retcons, and so on.
Lord Karsus, I like this hypothesis. It sounds pretty good.
Lord Karsus, I like this hypothesis. It sounds pretty good.
-Thank you.
Yes, well, I think THIS should happen instead!
-The Traitor, eh? Well, that basically sums up the plotline of Stardeep.
-But, yes, it does seem that either Lolth, Eilistraee, or perhaps both deities will be "scrubbed".
-The Traitor, eh? Well, that basically sums up the plotline of Stardeep.
-But, yes, it does seem that either Lolth, Eilistraee, or perhaps both deities will be "scrubbed".
Indeed, although likely without as much humor.;)
Yes, well, I think THIS should happen instead!
ROFL!
Scrubby scrub scrub that evil out of Eilistraee!
Probably Eli gets darkened and takes Lolth's place...
Lolth is just a false face for Shar now anyway...
ROFL!
Scrubby scrub scrub that evil out of Eilistraee!
"Scrub, scrub, scrub, scrub..."
Yes, I'd like that.
Lolth is just a false face for Shar now anyway...
I strongly doubt that, but we'll see.
Maybe Eilistraee would become the new Lolth, completing her legacy as the daughter of an evil divine matron mother..
I hope not. Eilistraee is much more interesting as herself.
I hope not. Eilistraee is much more interesting as herself.
Agreed. I don't like the idea of being "destined to be evil" just because your parent was.
Maybe Corellon will for once intervene, kicking Lloth's butt for threatening their shared daughter?
That would be the logical conclusion. But WotC never goes for the logical ending.
Maybe Corellon will for once intervene, kicking Lloth's butt for threatening their shared daughter?
That might be interesting, although I'd like to see Eilistraee pull out some ace-cards (or rather, ace-sava-pieces) in the last book. Seems to me like she entered a little too easily into this cosmic sava game without having an appropriate lineup of allies. I'm not sure I'd like for it to be Corellon (saved by daddy is a little overused), but maybe a secret alliance with people Lolth considers her own. Or something special that only she knew about, going into the game.
Maybe Corellon will for once intervene, kicking Lloth's butt for threatening their shared daughter?
-This is what Corellon Larethian said to Vhaeraun, concerning Eilistraee. Evermeet: Island of the Elves. More or less, "Any action you take against her will be your last".
-From what we've seen, it seems as if Corellon's Larethian's threat was fairly hollow, as Eilistraee seemingly delt with Vhaeraun on her own.
Not really hollow so much as unnecessary.
-Even if was unnecessary, they still were hollow, if Corellon Larethian didn't actually do anything. It's like saying that everything worked out fine, because you had a gun to shoot your attacker, when I said I'd be there to protect you from that attacker.
Haven't read it to be honest, but it depends on how much time it took... over a few hours, then yeah, hollow, but something more immediate, just unnecessary.
-Haven't read what? Sacrifice of the Widow? Concerning Vhaeraun and Eilistraee...
Show
Vhaeraun enters into a portal into Eilistraee's domain, and, a few pages later, next thing we know, he's dead
-Haven't read what? Sacrifice of the Widow? Concerning Vhaeraun and Eilistraee...ShowVhaeraun enters into a portal into Eilistraee's domain, and, a few pages later, next thing we know, he's dead
Maybe Eilistraee would become the new Lolth, completing her legacy as the daughter of an evil divine matron mother..
-Of course, she takes after her father more than her mother. And, her father is a benevolent, paternalistic ruler.
Seems to me like she entered a little too easily into this cosmic sava game without having an appropriate lineup of allies.
That's one of the main things about the plot that felt "forced" to me. Eilistraee seemed quick to agree to Lolth proposal of a "winner takes all" game, without much thought. She even came off as incredibly naive about the ways of her own mother, shouting, "That's not fair!" when Lolth seized an advantage (she thought Lolth was fair?).
That's one of the main things about the plot that felt "forced" to me. Eilistraee seemed quick to agree to Lolth proposal of a "winner takes all" game, without much thought. She even came off as incredibly naive about the ways of her own mother, shouting, "That's not fair!" when Lolth seized an advantage (she thought Lolth was fair?).
Exactly my feelings. I -hope- that the third book will address this, perhaps having Eilistraee use this perception (her mother undoubtedly still sees her as a child, and a bit rash) to her advantage at a critical moment. But we'll see.
That's one of the main things about the plot that felt "forced" to me. Eilistraee seemed quick to agree to Lolth proposal of a "winner takes all" game, without much thought. She even came off as incredibly naive about the ways of her own mother, shouting, "That's not fair!" when Lolth seized an advantage (she thought Lolth was fair?).
-Eilistraee was always naive, though, so it's not that "out of character" for her. I mean, remember the who business with Araushnee and the arrow and all that.
Yeah, but one would think that after tens of thousands of years of being Lolth's nemesis, she'd have wised up by now.;)
One would hope.
That's one of the main things about the plot that felt "forced" to me. Eilistraee seemed quick to agree to Lolth proposal of a "winner takes all" game, without much thought. She even came off as incredibly naive about the ways of her own mother, shouting, "That's not fair!" when Lolth seized an advantage (she thought Lolth was fair?).
Too true. I like Ms Smedman's work generally but the premise here was somewhat ill-conceived or even silly
Yeah, but one would think that after tens of thousands of years of being Lolth's nemesis, she'd have wised up by now.;)
-You'd think that. But, with those naive people...
-You'd think that. But, with those naive people...
Yeah, maybe she's really, really naive, in which case the blessed followers of the Dark Maiden are doomed anyway (their goddess expects their greatest enemy to play fair!). :-p
Yeah, maybe she's really, really naive, in which case the blessed followers of the Dark Maiden are doomed anyway (their goddess expects their greatest enemy to play fair!). :-p
-Well, followers of Eilistraee don't necessarily have to be as naive as she is. Qilue, for example (disregarding the mood and personality changes she's undergone in Storm of the Dead), I wouldn't call a fool. After everything she's been through in her life...
-I have no problem accepting the final details of what happened, but what I want to see are those details.
Regarding Vhaeraun, the some details are shown in Storm of the Dead. I do not believe that the window Lolth opened to the Astral to have a look at the bits and pieces are a ruse. I mean, how farther would we stretch the rules and imagination here?
As for the novels and their outcome. TGHotR has given us some insight regarding Ghaunadaur and I still follow the hope that the Spellplague and/or Mystra's death will shatter that table, probably sending Eilistraee into dispair-mode (given her darker half) and her followers at each others' throats. The "evil" and thus "MM" drow will stay under Lolth's sway and there will be some room for the DM to work with. We have been given a few glimpses on 4E drow and Lolth already and I am not sure whether WotC will continue with a pseudo-core plotline and some others for the FR and Eberron. After all, DotUD told us in no uncertain words how it all looks.
But anyway, LP plotline* wrecked most of the drow of FR that I held dear, while 4E wrecked most of what I held dear of the FR. In that respect, LP III and any other FR book going beyond that pale line of the Spellplague will make for interesting reading, but nothing more.
*I do hope that people note the difference between "novel quality" as such and "the plotline".
-Haven't read what? Sacrifice of the Widow? Concerning Vhaeraun and Eilistraee...ShowVhaeraun enters into a portal into Eilistraee's domain, and, a few pages later, next thing we know, he's dead
It really makes me want to never buy their products again.
All I want is LOGIC. That's it. Not anything else. I want simple, easily thought out results so that I can say "Yeah, I can see how that could happen."
But every time they write another book like this, I feel cheated, like I was treated to something written by a fourteen year old with his maturity switch turned to 'off' and his hand on his crank.
I know most of the WOTC designers are fat, overweight gamer geeks, but is that any reason to throw quality writing out the door in favor of this sort of stupidity?
I want the purple prose to go away. I want the stories I read to not feel like I'm being violated, both emotionally and in grammar.
I want these people to reread Lester Dent's rules for how to write a story, especially a pulp fiction story like what they're writing.
But they don't get it.
:P
I think whatever it is, they're going to ruin Eilistraee. They like to ruin things. They ruined Anauroch with the Empire of Shade. They ruined Lathander with this Amaunator nonsense, and they ruined Tyr with the whole Cyric business.
But they don't get it.
Yup. But I think they know its crap. They just think there are people out there that will like it
I had come across a spoiler of 4ed which stated that SpellPlague had destroyed most of the drow pantheon, left only Eillistrae, Lloth and Ghaundalar. Could it mean that both Eillistrae and Lloth draw in their sava game?
-The Spellplague has nothing to do with any of this, as these events are taking place about ten years before 1385 DR.
But every time they write another book like this, I feel cheated, like I was treated to something written by a fourteen year old with his maturity switch turned to 'off' and his hand on his crank.
Or on acid?
What's the exact wording in the new Drizzt novel that refers to Eilistraee? I don't have that book yet. I came up with a new theory last night, but I'd be curious if it matches with what Drizzt really said about her.
Well, Drizzt states that Eilstraee's followers were on the rise, but now they are "gone".
Keep in mind though that Drizzt can be considered an unreliable narrator.
Well, Drizzt states that Eilstraee's followers were on the rise, but now they are "gone".
Keep in mind though that Drizzt can be considered an unreliable narrator.
Certainly (and I agree), but is that all he says? Wasn't there something about Eilistraee's followers being mistaken about something?
I'm curious in the actual wording he uses when talking about Eilistraee.
Certainly (and I agree), but is that all he says? Wasn't there something about Eilistraee's followers being mistaken about something?
Not that I can recall. He really doesn't say much about them, and only uses them as one of several examples of how the Realms has changed (for the worse).
I'm curious in the actual wording he uses when talking about Eilistraee.
Well, if you want to read the actual text, you should be able to get a pdf of the prologue pretty easily from the Books section of the Wizards site (just look up The Orc King, and click on the Sample Chapter).
I had come across a spoiler of 4ed which stated that SpellPlague had destroyed most of the drow pantheon, left only Eillistrae, Lloth and Ghaundalar. Could it mean that both Eillistrae and Lloth draw in their sava game?
What i mean is that maybe both goddess somehow ended the game(without one side "destroying" another) in a draw since both of them survived after the SpellPlague in 1385DR.
[INDENT]“(...)I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers
of Eilistraee. But where are they now?”
“You speak in ridd—” the elf started, but Drizzt slammed him again.
“Gone!” Drizzt shouted. “Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed
and gentle world.(...)”
[/INDENT]
So that's interesting. And because of that pesky 1st person dialogue, it tells us nothing about Eilistraee, really. He's only referring to her followers, and he could be speaking a little metaphorically. As you said, he isn't all that reliable, considering that Drizzt's been way off base on other assumptions that he's made ("death" of Wulfgar, for example). And he might even be referring poetically to the "blend" of Eilistraee and her brother, which could lead to a rather different kind of future Eilistraeen (not "good" per se, or "evil" but somewhere in between). Certainly, the "Masked Lady" wouldn't be tame or gentle. So who really knows? Heh!
To paraphrase Nietzsche, "to stare into the eyes of Vhaeraun is to invite him into your soul; you may find yourself looking back at Faerun through a mask of your own." Heh! ;)
Right, the text really doesn't tell us anything, it only gives us hints. And Drizzt's thought that all of his friends have been dead at least once, when they really weren't.
You're welcome.
Right, the text really doesn't tell us anything, it only gives us hints. And Drizzt's thought that all of his friends have been dead at least once, when they really weren't.
Plus, Drizzt can be awfully
What i mean is that maybe both goddess somehow ended the game(without one side "destroying" another) in a draw since both of them survived after the SpellPlague in 1385DR.
-Well, obviously. We don't know the details, however, and as the saying goes...