I'm positive that everyone knows Mystra is dead, btu does teh average priest /commoner know that Gruumsh and Talos are one and the same, or do a bunch of human barbarians still scream out "For Talos!" not knowing that it's really Gruumsh's "Nickname"??
Same with the elves and Selune, do they say "May Hannali bless you." knowing full well that her name is really Selune?
Or is this this information restricted to the higher up clerics? Is the pope of Talos' religion the only one who knows he's really Gruumsh? Wouldn't that cause a bit of a crisis of faith, realizing that the entire time he was really worshipping an orc?
Same with the elves and Selune, do they say "May Hannali bless you." knowing full well that her name is really Selune?
Surely if they said "May Hanali bless you." they would be referring to Sune and not Selune. It was Sehanine who was "revealed" (:rolleyes
as being an aspect of Selune, wasn't it? Not Hanali Celanil....Other than that, I with what LK said. Maybe you could suggest a specific example?
I've been thinking... what does the average commoner and priest know?
A commoner would only have local knowledge. If they're exposed in trading-place environment, interacting with traders from outside their area, a commoner may know more.
They may also get knowledge if their town includes a town crier (an equivalent of a news anchor reporter).
A priest would have local knowledge including knowledge of their organized religion matter within the area.
Whether these were retcons (hanali was always Sune) or quick kill-offs not meriting explanation in the minds of the designers, I think your question touched upon one of the most frustrating aspects of 4E. We simply aren't given enough lore to know an answer to how, when, or why any of these changes took place, (if we are supposed to see them as changes and not retcons) but I suspect that even if we were, any answer would be insufficient and fail to disguise or excuse the cynical and indeed farcical nature of this god-culling.
I've been a fan of the realms since early 2e and I've never felt such contempt from TSR or Wizards as I did reading the cosmology section of the FRCG. And I don't even like the gods that much. Apologies for the rant, but I hope fans of all editions can unite around wanting to see respectful stewardship of these worlds we've collectively inhabited for so long and/or are just beginning to discover.
-What the 'average' person knows varies from place to place, race to race, and so on.
That's always been Ed Greenwood's approach as well. Such knowledge depends on the nature of the person - are they a commoner with limited or no education? Do they worship as a solitary practitioner in the hills because there are no churches or temples? Or are they a well-educated noble or a priest? Priests of a higher rank may also know more, depending on the specific deity. Upon discovery of certain facts, the high priests of a faith may choose to "spread the gospel" which might seriously alter the nature of the faith. Or, more pragmatically, they might knowingly choose to hold certain facts for only the highest level of clergy to know and understand.
So far, I'm not sure we've seen this played out anywhere in the 4E novels, so it's very difficult to answer with certainty. But a very interesting question, to be sure.
Note that even so this knowledge may be as much rumor as fact, with each new telling twisting the 'facts' beyond what they really are.
In my game I assume commoners and other not so well educated folk of any stripe pray to many gods, not just one. So when barbarians (to use the OP's example) shout out to Talos, they're doing just as their ancestors have done over and over.
Which is to say they are expressing their belief in Talos by calling out/praying to what Talos represents to them. That is the only reason Talos is relevant.
Calling into question the deep nature of Talos just isn't part of the cultural equation.
What I really want to know is when it comes to all the gods that WOTC killed off, who knows what about them? Does the "pope" of Hanali's religion know/realize that he's really worshipping Sune, or is that knowledge only the gods themselves know???
Another thing: Is Asmodeus killed Azuth to become a god, that would mean that he had to absorb Azuth's portfolio. So, Why isn't Asmodeus the new god of Mages???
That's always been Ed Greenwood's approach as well.
-It's not specifically an Ed Greenwood approach. It's a common sense approach.
Well, my main question mainly refers to religion, since anyone who knows how to read can easily just pick up a book and start learning about magic.
-Which still leaves plenty of variables out there. Where is the theoretical average person from? What is the occupation of the average theoretical person? What race is the average theoretical person? All of this can change the equation. An Drow raised in Gualludurth, the Temple-City of Lolth is going to know a lot more about religion simply because of where he/she lives than a farmer from Shadowdale.
What I really want to know is when it comes to all the gods that WOTC killed off, who knows what about them? Does the "pope" of Hanali's religion know/realize that he's really worshipping Sune, or is that knowledge only the gods themselves know???
-Again, it depends. With Hanali Celanil, the FRCG specifically mentions that the Elves of Evereska discovered that Hanali Celanil was always Sune in disguise. It doesn't say how this revelation has impacted anyone, though. Presumably, it would, though. That'd be like Christians finding out that Jesus was actually an immigrant to the area from China.
Another thing: Is Asmodeus killed Azuth to become a god, that would mean that he had to absorb Azuth's portfolio. So, Why isn't Asmodeus the new god of Mages???
-Well, being as that, in 4e, the notion of portfolios went out the window...Deities can subtlety alter any portfolios they inherit, however. Moander had the 'Corruption' portfolio. When Finder Wyvernspur killed him and got it for himself, it became tied to music, when it never had been in the past.
The FRCG seems to suggest that it's somewhat common knowledge, though how Angarradh can still exist when all her component goddesses have been violently written out of the realms not even Iolaum, in his brainy tentacled wisdom, could hope to explain.
Garen Thal attempted to explain the matter on Candlekeep.com (check the Realms Chat forum).
Well, my main question mainly refers to religion, since anyone who knows how to read can easily just pick up a book and start learning about magic.
Assuming they can read. Unless you're in a fantasy setting the models after our own modern culture -- including free public education -- to be literate means you have the money to pay tutor (rich merchant or gentry) or belong to an exclusive group, be it priesthood or scribes/heralds,
I didn't know about the elves finding out abotu Hanali, but we'll say the "average person" is a human from Waterdeep, not a noble or anything, just a regular working stiff, maybe an innkeepers assistant...
Another thing: Is Asmodeus killed Azuth to become a god, that would mean that he had to absorb Azuth's portfolio. So, Why isn't Asmodeus the new god of Mages???
I just figured that Asmodeus burned through much of Azuth's power in order to elevate himself to true deity status.
You have to wonder though what secrets and knowledge about magic "as it was" before the Spellplague is now know my Asmodeus.
I think that knowledge alone makes him terribly, terribly dangerous.
Asmodeus as future god of magic, anyone?
Garen Thal attempted to explain the matter on Candlekeep.com (check the Realms Chat forum).
That Rinoalyrna for letting us know about that thread!
I posted this there also but re-pasting it here for those who don't go to Candlekeep forums:
I have the "official" description on who Angharradh really is in 4E as I asked both Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell. Here is what I said and Bruce's reply:
Askanipsion said...
Hiya Bruce
I recently asked a question to Rich Baker on the WOTC forums. He wasn't sure about the answer but suggested I ask you. So here is my question that I wondered if you could please help me with.
I was wondering if you could explain the 4E version of Angharradh. In older editions, she was formed when 3 goddesses merged. Now that 2 of the goddesses have been revealed to actually be Sune and Akadi, who is Angharradh??
Is she still 3 goddesses merged or a single minded entity? Could she be the moon-less aspect of Sehanine?
Thanks Bruce!
- Askanipsion
Bruce said...
To the extent Angharradh remains an active presence, she is a manifestation of these goddesses (Selune, Sune, and Akadi; primordial in Akadi's case) and their mutual adoration for Corellon and love of the elven people. She hasn't been seen much lately, however
.--------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is Angharradh up to? Why hasn't she been seen much lately?? I was kinda hoping she was just Sehanine who shed her moon domain to Selune.
Oh well.....
-It's not specifically an Ed Greenwood approach. It's a common sense approach. (...)
Well, it's not an approach he created out of whole cloth, but it has been his approach - and the one he recommends to people who have asked since 1E. ;)
Well, it's not an approach he created out of whole cloth, but it has been his approach - and the one he recommends to people who have asked since 1E. ;)
As long he only recommend. Having him force me how to play my own FR game is unnerving.
As long he only recommend. Having him force me how to play my own FR game is unnerving.
I don't recall Ed or any of the other designers ever "forcing" anyone to play FR a particular way. Ed's always been about everyone making the setting their own, so I'm not sure where this comment's coming from exactly. FR is and always was meant to be your setting.
Then again, after rereading, it looks like you might not be looking for a solution but rather the official interpretation. If so, has anyone asked Rich Baker?
As long he only recommend. Having him force me how to play my own FR game is unnerving.
Dude, the guy is nice.
Ed is the exact last person you should ever presume is telling you to do anything.
His approach, in my experience, is always to tell it like it is in the Realms, with the concrete understanding that DMs and players are free to take or discard what he has to say at their leisure.
On regards with the original topic subject though, I wonder just what the average priest/cleric would know? We'll say a regular lvl 5 cleric
On regards with the original topic subject though, I wonder just what the average priest/cleric would know? We'll say a regular lvl 5 cleric
-Like I said, in the case of Hanali Celanil, he priests from Evereska know the "truth". That said, nothing seemed to have come from it. But, we'll probably never know the extent of it without a Faiths & Pantheons-style book, that has already been confirmed that it won't be coming out.
That Rinoalyrna for letting us know about that thread!
You're welcome, and thank you for letting us know about BC's official answer.
As long he only recommend. Having him force me how to play my own FR game is unnerving.
Since when has Ed forced you or anyone else to do anything? Far from it, his attitude is that people should use the setting as they like.
To the extent Angharradh remains an active presence, she is a manifestation of these goddesses (Selune, Sune, and Akadi; primordial in Akadi's case) and their mutual adoration for Corellon and love of the elven people. She hasn't been seen much lately, however
I appreciate the attempt, but this really makes absolutely no sense whatsoever...
I don't recall Ed or any of the other designers ever "forcing" anyone to play FR a particular way. Ed's always been about everyone making the setting their own, so I'm not sure where this comment's coming from exactly. FR is and always was meant to be your setting.
I don'y know bout that Therise, I heard that a frienad of a friend of a friend was playing Dming FR and just when he said "Not in my Realms" *BOOM* Ed kicks in the door with and M4 and *POP-POP* one in the chest one in the forehead stood on the table and said: Any other ***** that want to take My ****??!? Yup I also heard that he has a group of agents bigger than the CIA, SHIELD, and the LA-LI-LU-LE-LO combined. tHEY OUT THERE MAN!
:rolleye2:
I appreciate the attempt, but this really makes absolutely no sense whatsoever...
Yeah I didn't like the answer either to tell the truth. How could 2 Greater Goddesses and a Primoridal form into a lesser Goddess???
Also if Angharradh is 3 goddesses in consciousness, why is she acting so independently? What is she up to that she hasn't been around??
It also seems that the designers aren't sure what to do with Angharradh and why she exists.
In my campaign we say that Angharrdh is actually Sehanine. In Pre-4E, she merged with "Sune" and "Akadi" to form a Greater Goddess but Sehanine was always the primary goddess in the triad goddess. Without the 2 other goddesses, she is only a lesser goddess. This way it fits in with the old lore.
I am sure most people don't know Mystra was assassinated - they just know magic went crazy and Mystra went quiet.
-It'd be similar to the Silence of Lolth, actually.
D&D has come a long way from worrying much about what religious conservatives think of the game.
When i was a kid and my mom came home from church to say...don't play that D&D because it teaches you to worship demons I could honestly say...no mom. Demons in D&D are monsters that you battle. Look...they are in the monster book like dragons and goblins and orcs.
Now when someone's concerned parent comes in and says "don't play D&D little Billy because it teaches kids to worship demons" they can say..."not only that Mom but look...my half-elf warlock worships Asmodeus...hail Asmodeus!"
Personally, I think its awesome. I'm just surprised that the boards don't see more postings from concerned parents worried the game is going to lead their kids off to become tree worshipping pagans, gods love em.
-Oh no...Not the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo...
I didn't get the reference, but i figure if ed had a realms police unit busting in on your tabletop sessions it would look something like the zhentarim meets the twisted rune meets that shoon lich in Zallanora's body...
-It'd be similar to the Silence of Lolth, actually.
I agree.
Commoners are like roaches. You just can't get rid of them all and they will always be.
Shrug and go on would be the most common thought under most serfs in the Realms even right after the disasters. In the sword coast the skies showed a magnificent blue glow for awhile... nothing more went on in Rusticwell, my village of 20 houses. Oh yeah! The old coot up north never showed his face again, not that he did that much, nobody found a body in his decrpid little tower, even after all these years...
I agree.
Commoners are like roaches. You just can't get rid of them all and they will always be.
-Well, I was thinking more along the lines that Mystra's clergymembers would know what the hell was happening, but I can agree with the notion that commoners are like roaches.
-I'd like to hope that, as a society, we've moved on from such "dark ages".
I know, I'd like to hope the same thing.
I don'y know bout that Therise, I heard that a frienad of a friend of a friend was playing Dming FR and just when he said "Not in my Realms" *BOOM* Ed kicks in the door with and M4 and *POP-POP* one in the chest one in the forehead stood on the table and said: Any other ***** that want to take My ****??!? Yup I also heard that he has a group of agents bigger than the CIA, SHIELD, and the LA-LE-LU-LE-LO combined. tHEY OUT THERE MAN!
But did he have a Dinner Blaster?
-Well, that one was new.
And funny! :P
Since when has Ed forced you or anyone else to do anything? Far from it, his attitude is that people should use the setting as they like.
That's what I like about Ed.
-Oh no...Not the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo...
:inco: Can't say anymore, Nanomachines and all that
-It'd be similar to the Silence of Lolth, actually.
If i'm not mistaken in undead (or was it unclean? :thinks
as soon as the spellplague happened wizards knew instantly that Mystra died (I remmember reading that a Red Wizard Maybe the Divination zulkir stopped on her tracks and said "Mystra is dead". or something like it.:inco: Can't say anymore, Nanomachines and all that
-Understood. Say no more.
If i'm not mistaken in undead (or was it unclean? :thinks
-Hmm. Using metagame knowledge, I think they were using.