My campaign's reaching the end of the paragon tier, and I've started pulling one of the character's old star warlock pact to bring in aboleths and the Abolethic Sovereignty. I plan to make them the main bad guys of the epic tier. I'm not a great fiction reader, so I'm not going to read Cordell's novels; I bought "Plague of Spells" months ago, and still haven't gotten past the first chapter. So, can someone tell me if any of Cordell's novels establish Xxiphu's purpose, or what the Abolethic Sovereignty wants?
Seriously though, they want to take over the prime material reality, completely warping it into something alien and inhospitable to its native species in the process. Think of them as the Cathulu creatures of the D&D world. What they want is a place in this realm. The price of their desire is madness and destruction.
I do hope we can get some real answers in this thread. I don't want to read any more novels by Bruce Cordell so I'm hoping some kind person will "take one for the team" and post the results here.
No offense, but if you don't want to read more Bruce Cordell (and frankly, I can't blame you for that), why not create your own reasons and motives for the aboleth?
Granted, it's not easy because they're really quite non-Realmsian as presented by Cordell. It's what happens when a designer with a love of Cthulu-esque fantasy tries to inject that "alien entity" quality into a world where it doesn't really fit.
But as I said, I don't mind deviating from canon if need be, and I'll do that before I read Bruce Cordell's novels--or frankly, any of the novels, I'm just not really big into fantasy novels in general--but I do like to at least know where I'm deviating from canon. Usually, digging deep enough into wikis or Candlekeep or something will at least give me an idea of the obscure Realmslore involved for a plotline I have in mind, but this time, I haven't been able to find anything at all.
No offense, but if you don't want to read more Bruce Cordell (and frankly, I can't blame you for that), why not create your own reasons and motives for the aboleth?
Granted, it's not easy because they're really quite non-Realmsian as presented by Cordell. It's what happens when a designer with a love of Cthulu-esque fantasy tries to inject that "alien entity" quality into a world where it doesn't really fit.
Is there some place he hasn't tried to inject it into? I've been going over my 3e collection of late, and whenever I see his name on the credits somewhere, sure enough there's a creepy little abberration thingy popping up to devour our minds. Its just getting annoying at this point... maybe its just me, but when I think of that crap, the only thing that pops into my head is go get a job writing for CoC and leave D&D in peace.
Oh, I don't know about that--since when wasn't the Realms a hodge-podge of ill-fitting themes? On one end of Faerun, you've got Renaissance city-states, and on the other, you have ancient Egypt, complete with the Egyptian gods. It's always been a "kitchen sink" kind of setting, at least in my experience. I'm not sure if Cthulhu can add any more craziness than it already had going on.
But as I said, I don't mind deviating from canon if need be, and I'll do that before I read Bruce Cordell's novels--or frankly, any of the novels, I'm just not really big into fantasy novels in general--but I do like to at least know where I'm deviating from canon. Usually, digging deep enough into wikis or Candlekeep or something will at least give me an idea of the obscure Realmslore involved for a plotline I have in mind, but this time, I haven't been able to find anything at all.
Don't get me wrong, I like Cthulhu fantasy. It's just that the Realms is absolutely the wrong place to tack that stuff into. With the Egyptian mini-setting, or even Maztica, one can at least say, "well, that's in a different part of the world" and either embrace it or ignore it depending on one's tastes.
But with Cthulhu and the aberration/alien-ish/far realms stuff, that's the kind of thing that alters the tone of the entire setting. To do Cthulhu fantasy right, it means certain things about the world and the planes have to be dramatically altered in tone. It affects everything on a fundamental level, and isn't just a campaign diversion like Maztica might be. It just doesn't belong, at all, given the clash between it and the original tone of the Realms.
Is there some place he hasn't tried to inject it into? I've been going over my 3e collection of late, and whenever I see his name on the credits somewhere, sure enough there's a creepy little abberration thingy popping up to devour our minds. Its just getting annoying at this point... maybe its just me, but when I think of that crap, the only thing that pops into my head is go get a job writing for CoC and leave D&D in peace.
Exactly. As is true for aberrations/far realms, the same goes for Shar.
Frankly, I think the aboleth would be far more interesting if they were completely divorced from this far realms junk and given an actually interesting history that follows a Realms tone. Instead of what's been presented, it would have been unique and fun to see a novel about the Kuo-toa, perhaps, as they defend their undersea realm against enemies on multiple sides - including the aboleth. Maybe the aboleth were a magical experiment carried out by the Sarrukh, for uniquely lizardy motives.
To me, the Realms has always been a hodge-podge of disparate elements, none of which mix particularly well. It's always given the setting a kind of crazy, zany feel for me. I don't see where the Cthulhu monsters make it any more crazy than it was already.
Right now, I have the Abolethic Sovereignty ready to perform a ritual "when the stars are right" (they'll be right when the PC's reach the end of the paragon tier...) that will summon Acamar, the Star that Hungers (a black hole) that will rip Toril apart. The PC's get to head to the Ziggurat of Time (Dungeon #159) and spend the epic tier traveling across the Astral Plane and throughout time, trying to undo the end of the world.
Does that clash with Xxiphu's established motivations? Any way I could explain those clashes away? And if not, what parts of the storyline-so-far do I need to censor out if my players ask?
I think your idea would fit. Really, you don't have to even try very hard because you're dealing with alien creatures whose motivations are completely unknowable just like their minds. You have no way to understand or imagine why they commit a certain act, and any motivation or logic you try to apply to it would be from a skewed and primitive perspective.
When dealing with the Sovereignty, you only need to know one thing: they are not, and will never be, your friend. At best you'll become their slave, and at worst you'll be destroyed.
Just stick close to the "unknowable aliens" and you can't go wrong.
I didn't feel any more compelled to bring in Xxiphu than Maztica or Mulhorand, myself. You've got a strange obelisk floating over the Sea of Fallen Stars, and maybe it portends doom tomorrow, or maybe its plans will unfold over glacial time. I only brought it in because one of my characters multiclassed into a star-pact warlock; otherwise, it would've been pretty easy to ignore.
To me, the Realms has always been a hodge-podge of disparate elements, none of which mix particularly well. It's always given the setting a kind of crazy, zany feel for me. I don't see where the Cthulhu monsters make it any more crazy than it was already.
Right now, I have the Abolethic Sovereignty ready to perform a ritual "when the stars are right" (they'll be right when the PC's reach the end of the paragon tier...) that will summon Acamar, the Star that Hungers (a black hole) that will rip Toril apart. The PC's get to head to the Ziggurat of Time (Dungeon #159) and spend the epic tier traveling across the Astral Plane and throughout time, trying to undo the end of the world.
Does that clash with Xxiphu's established motivations? Any way I could explain those clashes away? And if not, what parts of the storyline-so-far do I need to censor out if my players ask?
I think that sounds fantastic. Doesn't contradict Realmslore from what I can tell (although I am not an expert), and seems like a stupendous setup for some great adventures.
I'm in agreement with you Jefgodesky about the Realms. Even before the Sovereignty Cthulu-esque elements and species have existed in the Realms (and D&D in general), throughout all editions. The only thing the Sovereignty did was give them a more prominent face. In the end, it doesn't bother me anymore than any type of bizarre planar species having an impact on the Realms.
I think your idea would fit. Really, you don't have to even try very hard because you're dealing with alien creatures whose motivations are completely unknowable just like their minds. You have no way to understand or imagine why they commit a certain act, and any motivation or logic you try to apply to it would be from a skewed and primitive perspective.
When dealing with the Sovereignty, you only need to know one thing: they are not, and will never be, your friend. At best you'll become their slave, and at worst you'll be destroyed.
Just stick close to the "unknowable aliens" and you can't go wrong.
Bruce, for what its worth, I thank you for your influence on the Realms. They have made them more playable for me.
What I don't quite get is, why Aboleths. There are a lot of other Far Realms critters with a lot more traction and development. I guess I sort of want to see more Aboleth spawned creatures, but I'm not sure how that would impact everything.
Your traditional villain is logical. Players can reason with them. They can use their logic and reason to figure out what they are plotting and work to stop them. In essence, your traditional villain is human and thinks like one. But the Sovereignty is different. They are unknowable. They are beyond reason and logic. You can't out think them or reason with them. They do not even view time in the same way that we do. Even if you manage to stop whatever they are attempting today, it is still largely irrelevant to them because of the way their minds work.
This presents some challenges to a DM. I would talk to your players about introducing mechanics for insanity. In 4E terms I'd treat it somewhat like a disease by creating an Insanity track, and instead of Endurance I'd use Insight since it can also be used to recognize illusionary effects. In this case though, it would be used to determine if a character notices the telltale signs that they are experiencing some form of insanity. Noticing the effect doesn't cure it immediately (though it can over time as it moves along the track), but it makes the character more palatable to logic and reason.
They would be exposed to insanity in certain situations, namely when they have an intimate encounter with an Abolith or when they come into contact with some alien artifact belonging to the Sovereignty. It should be obvious in most cases where such should apply.
For some ideas on various mental disorders check out this thread. There is some good general advice there, as well as things that you can use to spark ideas of your own.
Here are some of my suggestions. Remember that everyone is there to have fun and that you're trying to tell a collaborative story. Don't put pointless insanity onto players, but instead design them to be part of the story and to be fun. Keep in mind that the Sovereignty are master manipulators of the mind. Their first line of defense to stop the players is to manipulate them, either to turn them against each other or toward their own goals. They will only engage in battle if they are cornered and are given no other alternative.
Here is an example of how I'd use an insanity track.
Distrustful Mind
This insanity has the potential to inflict a character when he comes into contact with artifact X.
Attack: Adjust to the appropriate level vs. Will
Insight: Improve DC (based on level), maintain DC (based on level), worsen DC (based on level) or lower.
0. The character is cured.
1. Initial Effect: The character begins to have a gut feeling that an ally (chosen by the DM) has a secret that has not been revealed.
2. Worsen: The character begins to believe that the ally is withholding important information critical to the mission.
3. Worsen: The character is certain of it now, and worse, begins to believe that the ally has fallen under the sway of the Aboliths.
4. Final State: The character is absolutely convinced that the ally is in league with the Aboliths, and cannot be trusted.
Now, you don't want to force players into anything, and so I suggest enticing them with rewards. When they are infected with insanity and they play along with whatever delusion they are under, reward them in some way. Generally the best way to do this is likely through small XP rewards that depend on how well the player allows his or her character to engage in the delusion.
If you want to be an evil and tricky DM, work to make sure that the players are not sharing insanity information with each other, so that they don't know who is delusional and who is not. Then reward players exceptionally well when they manage to convince the sane individuals in whatever delusion their character is experiencing.
In the end, doing this allows the Sovereignty to be a unique enemy that is different from what is standard in the rest of the Realms. You want your players to walk away AFRAID of the enemy, even if they are successful. Friends and trusted allies can also fall under the sway of the Sovereignty, making it difficult for the players to trust anyone outside the group so that such things (as the distrustful mind insanity) seems plausible. You want to keep the players constantly on their heels, always guessing, always uncertain, as well as confused and bewildered. Of course, it is a balancing act on the DM's part. You do not want the game to become incoherent or unfun, but you also have to find a way to illustrate the unorthodox methods and tactics of the enemy.
When it is all said and done, if the player characters are uncertain of who to trust, each other, their friends, their allies and even themselves... and find that exciting and thrilling then you have been successful.
Also, don't be afraid to suddenly change tactics or strategy suddenly. You are playing an alien and unknowable species of highly intelligent beings. You don't want the players to understand them, and it should be clear to them that they should not try to understand them.
The best advice I can give is to keep an eye on frustration. Don't forget you're trying to tell a story and everyone should have fun. You want to keep players guessing, and you want them to know that they are dealing with something that is completely alien to them in every way imaginable.
Just teleport an Aboleth into Anauroch, or the Raurin, and your done.
Now Illithids, they're scarey... and have a certain amount of previous lore to make them a known threat. Not that I like them much either (I'm anti-psionics in D&D), but at least they can follow you around, and eating brains is so much less comical then turning you into 'skum'.
Most adventurers already ARE scum. :P
If I ever write-up the giantish kingdom that once ruled the Sea of Fallen Stars, I'll make sure that they ate Sushi.. and were immune to mind-altering effects. ;)
You want to keep the Sovereignty out there looming in an eerie silence. When the players are successful, after an immense struggle, they should walk away terrified of the prospect of the Sovereignty. Right before they defeat your Abolith villain, have it make clear to them that the Sovereignty has marked them and will take its vengeance upon them.
Then do nothing. Just let it linger. Let the players continue on with their characters careers, but always looking over their shoulder, fearful. If they seem to start to forget the Sovereignty is out there, find small little ways to remind them. To let them know that the Sovereignty hasn't forgotten and is watching - always watching and waiting. Make it feel like the other shoe is about to drop, it's only a matter of when - but when never comes. :P
1. Xxiphu, the Seat of the Abolethic Sovereignty is a soaring citadel in the sky. Although it is primarily seen over the Sea of Fallen Stars it is mobile, and can change its location at will. So it is a mistake to believe that it is just located in the Sea of Fallen Stars. It is where the DM wants or needs it to be at any given moment in time.
2. The citadel of Xxiphu can literally bend reality within its vicinity. The effects of this is largely left up to the DM to determine.
3. One of the stated effects of this bending of reality is the "unfettering" of certain sea-based creatures. In other words - the Aboleth and certain other servitors - can breathe air and fly. Their fly speed is equal to their swim speed, and two examples given are Unfettered Krakens and Unfettered Morkoths.
So, yeah - your idea would fail.
One of the core story arcs in LFR deals with the Abolethic Sovereignty. I am looking forward to see where it takes us.
Keith
Granted, it's not easy because they're really quite non-Realmsian as presented by Cordell. It's what happens when a designer with a love of Cthulu-esque fantasy tries to inject that "alien entity" quality into a world where it doesn't really fit.
The Far Realm/Cthulhu-esque concept has long had some purchase in the Realmslore.
Specifically, the Dragonking. The original reference was in the 3rd of the "Marco Volo" modules in which the Dragonking makes a brief appearance in the Realms. Eric Boyd tells us he that tried to work with them when expanding on the Dragonking entry in City of Splendors: Waterdeep.
From there, the Dragonking was mentioned again in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical -- under the entry for the "Dragonking's Eye". Eric, thus, continued with the reference into City of Splendors: Waterdeep and made a more solid connection to the Far Realm.
And with regard to the Dragonking's Eye... since the defeat of the Dragonking [after it was released by Marcus Wands], it's been noted that the alien god's release has resulted in an unusual effect occurring in the Realms. Strange entities from the Far Realm have slowly began appearing within the local vicinity of individual members of House Wands, and almost always at random. This was 3e Realmslore.
So, for the most part, it would seem as though the Wands family have garnered some rather "undesired" attention from the bizarre creatures of the Outside Realm.
What I don't quite get is, why Aboleths. There are a lot of other Far Realms critters with a lot more traction and development. I guess I sort of want to see more Aboleth spawned creatures, but I'm not sure how that would impact everything.
Because the aboleth already have an established history of references in the Realmslore.
Of the top of my head...
Aboleths lurk in "The Deeps" -- especially the Deepfall. See Dwarves Deep.
Deep dragons of the Underdark prize the flesh of aboleth.
From Ed of the Greenwood:-
"The Low Road is a long Underdark route, known to certain dwarves, connecting Glen to the subterranean dwarf realm east of the Great Rift (see the map included with DWARVES DEEP).
[...]
There’s also an aboleth-governed subterranean lake (name not known to Volo) along the Road, that as it passes this lake winds through a maze of half-flooded tunnels to discourage drow and other attacks."
There's aboleth lore in the Ruins of Undermountain boxed set.
Don't forget Piscaethes the Blood Queen, an aboleth deity. See Night Below and Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. And the Skum Lord, from Skullport.
Aboleth are known to reside in the Jungles of Chult.
The Far Realm/Cthulhu-esque concept has long had some purchase in the Realmslore.
Specifically, the Dragonking. The original reference was in the 3rd of the "Marco Volo" modules in which the Dragonking makes a brief appearance in the Realms. Eric Boyd tells us he that tried to work with them when expanding on the Dragonking entry in City of Splendors: Waterdeep.
Well aware of this, unfortunately. Nothing like an adventure trilogy where the PCs must be rescued from the final villain not only by one deity, but several all at once. Even so, as you know, the connection between this "item" and the Far Realm wasn't firmed up until much later.
So, yeah - your idea would fail.
No it wouldn't, because I'd never use them.
I just find giant catfish laughable... sorry.
Now, Giant Catfish living in a flying city... that's as lame as earthmotes or a floating city of Genasi. What setting is this? Sky High? Why the hell is all the badness floating up in the air where only epic PCs can get to it? I want a setting I can run 1st level characters through, not one where everyone and his brother is driving the Deathstar.
Next they'll have a new Shade enclave in Turmish run by a guy named Lando Calrissian.
Nevermind... 4e was never meant for me, so I should just leave it alone...
Okay, I'll admit that I would have rather seen Illithid's instead of Aboleth's. I have a strong love for Illithids, and was never overly fond of Aboleths. However, I think the appearance of the aboleth is pretty good. Let's face it: there is much, much worse out there.
The appearance of the Aboleth I believe feels very Cthulhu-esque. Actually, I think it would be more frightening to encounter an aboleth than an illithid, simply due to the fact that it is completely alien and the Illithid does maintain a somewhat humanoid form.
As for the flying cities and what not, well I'm in agreement there. That's why in my Realms New Netheril collapsed not long after the Spellplague, and the Earthmotes and whatnot don't exist. I'm not anti-flying landmass, I'm just against it's overuse.
That being said, Xxiphu is very appropriate. I like it.
I really wouldn't call Xxiphu a city-per say. It's more or-less a flying obelisk that acts as a citadel.
I really don't understand all the hate directed at the Sovereignty. I can understand that it isn't people's cup of tea, but it isn't like they have a super prominent role in the 4E FRCG. You could axe them and literally you wouldn't have to change anything else at all. It is one of the easiest aspects of 4E to eliminate or change.
Compare that to say axing entire nations to replace them wholesale...
I really don't understand all the hate directed at the Sovereignty.
Because they're stupid. And because one of the major designers promotes them (and aberrations in general).
It isn't hate, really. It's more of an eye-rolling, "good grief, not them spooky fish who-have-unfathomable-motives again!"
and let me tell you, they want your sanity.
any anything from the far realms should best be used sparingly
as for the AS, I think there is so much hate for it because it was the AS and the betrayer who sounded the death of the FR for many or to many, it makes no since.
and the aboleth obelisk makes no since to me, so I wouldnt use it either.
but to some extent, I'm not big on psions either.
like the monk and psychic warrior of days gone past, back when the monk was KI and the PW was just different.
these days..... not overly certain.
if all else fails and a good description of what they want, leaving them faceless would have been best, and at best you could of dropped it on your gamers at the end, and for the time up to that point they could of been up with any of the ancient evils.
good one MT about Lando....
BC has gone from a talented designer to a "one-trick pony". I like a lot of his older stuff, but he needs a new direction - this current one is his personal tastes, and really doesn't work for FR (Its perfect for Eberron, which makes me wonder why he isn't on THAT team).
I don't get all of the vitriol towards Bruce in this thread. I have always enjoyed his novels and I feel that he creates some very interesting characters.
nothing at all.
dont like aboleths.
never will.
and it dates back to this one pc game called demise: rise of the kutan.
the bounty board reads as follows
kill one aboleth on lvl 3,
will recieve 1 katana on completion.
dman bounty, always evil and cost to much realign.... oh and it it killed me a few times to many trying to get it....
I agree I found the mystery of the aboleths motives not really frightening enough when it was limited by their reach from water. All they usually planned was to make sea levels rise or let the sea spill into parts of the underdark.
With the sovereignity of Xxiphu having kraken and aboleths roaming the sky Bruce has managed to elegantly enhance the availability of aboleths for a DM playing around the Sea of Fallen Stars and raise their mystery. It has made the motives of the Aboleth even more alien, as it will now focus its massive intellect towards other goals then just flooding Toril. Motives such as eating the minds of the land living brightest leaders to learn to infiltrate and subsume the realms around them.
No offense, but if you don't want to read more Bruce Cordell (and frankly, I can't blame you for that), why not create your own reasons and motives for the aboleth?
Granted, it's not easy because they're really quite non-Realmsian as presented by Cordell. It's what happens when a designer with a love of Cthulu-esque fantasy tries to inject that "alien entity" quality into a world where it doesn't really fit.
No offence taken.
My own take? Basically they're going to terraform Toril so that it is a hybrid of the Far Realm and, um, reality. That's their preferred environment. To do that they need to tamper with the fundamental building blocks of the prime material plane (or whatever the 4E term is), as well as adjust the "psychic environment" by converting various races into dominated slaves and thralls.
As for Bruce Cordell's writing, I have decided to stay awake after I found HAL from A Space Odyssey in Stardeep.
Of course, I just said that after stating my aboleth wanted to do terraforming so pot... kettle... black.... ;)
BC has gone from a talented designer to a "one-trick pony". I like a lot of his older stuff, but he needs a new direction - this current one is his personal tastes, and really doesn't work for FR (Its perfect for Eberron, which makes me wonder why he isn't on THAT team).
I think Bruce has lost his mojo. Look at The Gates of Firestorm Peak and the lesser known The Shattered Circle: two of the best 2E adventures. His Return to the Tomb of Horrors was a masterpiece. He was off to a good start with The Sunless Citadel in 3E but things then tapered off. Bastion of Lost Souls? Junk. Utter junk. That weird adventure that came with Mindscapes, the first psionic supplement he wrote for Malhavoc Press? Painful. His first cut of the 3E psionics rules: hopeless. The second cut was infinitely better.
I would love to see him write something more or less generic. No genre-bending. No preincarnate souls. No psionics! Let's see him get his mojo back because there is no doubt he is talented.
Never liked Lovecraft... one of the few authors who's work I couldn't get into (not that it was bad... just not 'my thing').
I would love to see him write something more or less generic. No genre-bending. No preincarnate souls. No psionics! Let's see him get his mojo back because there is no doubt he is talented.
Agreed.
I use plenty of his older stuff.
I also enjoyed Dark Vision (which just barely touched-upon aberations), but avoided Stardeep for many of the reasons mentioned here. Too much borrowed from SciFi, I'm thinking (including that title).
I think Bruce has lost his mojo.
Perhaps he needs to go down to Lousiana. Heh.
I hear there are a lot of Harry Potter fans... doesn't that mean that the new setting should have gotten a magic-school that trained young wizards and witches in those new 'magical traditions' that have been developed over the last century?
If you are going to put everything into a setting just because certain groups like them, then what you end-up with is a very confusing setting that doesn't cater to anyone in particular. That may work for toys, but it doesn't work for RPGs. The designers seem to think "generic is good"... but its not... not when it comes to game settings. Unique ones stand-out, while others just fade-away. FR has now lost those things which made it stand-out form the pack.
And I know there was a little bit of aberrational lore in FR already - hell, Ed's favorite baddies, the Malaugrym, are aberrations! However, they were always in the background, ready to be used by those DMs who like that sort of stuff. They weren't flying around in Space-stations attacking everything in-sight like the bugs from Starship Troopers. Psionics and Lovecraftian horros are made to be subtle threats, not 'Hulk Smash!' type story-lines. The Abolithic Sovereignty is WAY too heavy-handed, IMHO.
Anyhow, I shouldn't even be arguing this point anymore, since it's obviously a matter of taste, and it will all eventually work out on its own. Sorry if I irked anyone with my ramblings. :embarrass
However, they were always in the background, ready to be used by those DMs who like that sort of stuff. They weren't flying around in Space-stations attacking everything in-sight like the bugs from Starship Troopers. Psionics and Lovecraftian horros are made to be subtle threats, not 'Hulk Smash!' type story-lines. The Abolithic Sovereignty is WAY too heavy-handed, IMHO.
Your just wrong about that. As I said earlier the Abolithic Sovereignty is completely easy to remove, precisely because by and large they aren't impacting anything. They are just hanging around their citadel, and outside of anything in the novels (which I advocate ignoring and sticking only to the FRCG) they don't have to do anything. They don't require wealth. They don't require land. They aren't interested in trade. You could sail around the Sea of Fallen Stars in one campaign and never mention them once, and then in your next campaign have them be the central villains.
Their lifespans are so long and their minds so alien that you can leave them in the Realms and never use them, never mention them, and it'd make perfect sense so long as you didn't spot Xxiphu directly. Since it can be anywhere it wants on Toril at will that means such a thing isn't going to happen unless a DM wants it to happen.
Erase Thay, Netheril or Waterdeep - you've got work to do to not only explain what happened to them, but also what replaced them (if anything). Erase the Sovereignty and you don't need any explanations - it'd be as if they didn't exist at all.
So, yeah - I think you're statement is way over the top. I see the Sovereignty as a perfect construction for a DM, as it is only a problem when you want it to be a problem, and when you want it to disappear you can do it easily. It can be where you want, it's involvement can be on any scale large or small, it provides you with interesting and unique monsters and villains that you aren't going to find anywhere else...
It's for all the above reasons that I don't understand the dislike of it, simply because it's such a perfect construction for a DM that is also non-intrusive.
So was the Society of the Kraken in the 14th century realms the precursor or scout for the abolythic sovereignity?
I like it as long as they are in the background, e.g. if Xxiphu is like that city where Cthulhu was the head priest, don't remember the name...
R'lyeh
When you say Xxiphu out-loud, it sounds like "Seafood", which is why I always laugh and think of Sushi now when I think of Aboleths. :D
I thought giant, psionic catfish were amusing before, but having them fly around in the city of 'Seafood' is just funny as hell.
Illithids scare me, Maluagrym scare me, Grell scare the beejesus out of me... Giant Catfish not so much. Then again, I have to admit I have always found Beholders silly looking too (until 3rd edition), and they are the D&D 'poster child'.
So, to each his own.
If you are going to put everything into a setting just because certain groups like them, then what you end-up with is a very confusing setting that doesn't cater to anyone in particular.
That this can be written, without a trace of irony, in a forum dedicated to the Forgotten Realms boggles my mind. Hasn't the Realms been exactly that since at least the end of 2nd edition? I remember wondering at that aspect of the setting while I was in middle school!
They weren't flying around in Space-stations attacking everything in-sight like the bugs from Starship Troopers.
The Sovereignty in 4E is mostly just kind of sitting there. Y'know, in the background. Ready to be used by those DMs who like that sort of stuff...
Because they're stupid. And because one of the major designers promotes them (and aberrations in general).
No more stupid than "Egypt" somehow ending up in the realms and with the same Gods.
In fact, I know which one I prefer more by a huge margin.
It's more of an eye-rolling, "good grief, not them spooky fish who-have-unfathomable-motives again!"
Same way I viewed "Egypt" being in the realms myself. Worthless and adding absolutely nothing
At least Xxiphu gave me something interesting to base a campaign around.
No more stupid than "Egypt" somehow ending up in the realms and with the same Gods.
In fact, I know which one I prefer more by a huge margin.
I know which I prefer as well.
Same way I viewed "Egypt" being in the realms myself. Worthless and adding absolutely nothing
At least Xxiphu gave me something interesting to base a campaign around.
The Egypt variant is filled with massive, complex potential for those who can handle it as DMs. Understanding that this is a nation with deep history, a dynamic culture, different social interaction, and the ability for players to explore all of that flavor. Motivations are complex in such a setting, but still very human, and give the DM and PCs the chance to work in the interplay of culture and novel forms of magic.
Xxiphu by comparison is a ridiculous sledgehammer with only one small nail to hit. Flashy with its flying citadel, and "super scary psionic fishes!" (I mean, seriously, that's just plain stupid), and then you add in the fact that "they're so alien -ooh aah- that they're *unknowable* in their motivations", it leaves the DM and players without the ability to understand what is going on. It's a setting element that is meant to be scary, but is not. It's a setting meant to be exciting and "powerful", but is laughable with its ancient, giant, unknowable catfish. If a DM can carry off a Lovecraftian adventure, it is a one-note.
Yes, Aegeri, I also know which I prefer. And it's the one with deep history and the potential for exploring the motivations of multiple levels of a new society.
I really don't understand all the hate directed at the Sovereignty. I can understand that it isn't people's cup of tea, but it isn't like they have a super prominent role in the 4E FRCG. You could axe them and literally you wouldn't have to change anything else at all. It is one of the easiest aspects of 4E to eliminate or change.
-I don't like the entire Aboleth = Aberrations = Far Realms schpiel. I like my Aberrations to be "accidents of nature" and my Far Realms to be "not possible by the standards of our universe' laws of reality". Xxiphu is, in the Forgotten Realms, is 'ground zero' for that trend. Otherwise, I like Aboleth, the Far Realms, and Xxiphu. I don't like "untethered" Kraken, though. Seems a bit silly, to have Kraken, or any other sea creature, flying through the skies.
No more stupid than "Egypt" somehow ending up in the realms and with the same Gods.
-Of course, Mulhorand differed fundamentally from Egypt, in that, most primary and obvious among their differences, magic and/or the divine (as in the absolute presence thereof) cannot feasibly be proven to have existed in Egypt. Unther, the same thing applies. With Maztica, it applied a great deal less, especially since Maztica was more of a carbon copy of Mesoamerica than Mulhorand/Unther were of Egypt/Babylon.
The Egypt variant is filled with massive, complex potential for those who can handle it as DMs.
So can Xxiphu, which if the DM is capable of writing their own material and doing so well can be used for a great many purposes. Plus the potential encounters based around using almost MC. Escher like geography and other bending of space and time is incredibly interesting from a tactical point of view.
But again, if I want fantasy Egypt I could do better with a textbook on ancient Egypt
it leaves the DM and players without the ability to understand what is going on.
Funny, mine were able to figure out what was going on and what I designed in Xxiphu was pretty insane.
Do you have a relevant argument to offer yet? This is not particularly convincing as I have absolutely no idea where you are getting this nonsense from. Understanding the minds of alien creatures is impossible, it's why they are alien creatures and why plots around said things are relevant to begin with. It's because it's not the usual dealing with kings, liches or other things that while often fantastic, still think on a human sort of level (have wants and desires). Something that doesn't think at all human has many interesting plot possibilities and can be used in a wide variety of ways.
You just refuse to see that.
If a DM can carry off a Lovecraftian adventure, it is a one-note.
Actually it isn't and I guess I can carry off Lovecraftian adventures.
Given I have played Call of Cthulhu for over ten years and I don't recall where they became "one-note" either for that matter.
Yes, Aegeri, I also know which I prefer. And it's the one with deep history and the potential for exploring the motivations of multiple levels of a new society.
In a delightfully boring copy of ancient Egypt and those things I can do anywhere else in the Realms if I felt like it. Cormyr for example offers plenty of opportunities for a wide variety of intrigue and political plots; if I felt like it.
If I want something genuinely alien and difficult for my PCs to understand to begin with (if you think dealing with things like Aboleths or similar is impossible then you haven't read enough actual Cthulhu to have a clue what you're talking about).
I mean seriously. I can understand people disliking psionics, despite the fact it has been present in the Realms through multiple editions (Elminster himself even at one point had psionic powers in his write up). I can also understand people disliking Aboleths or believing that another species would be more appropriate. I can understand the dislike of a number of aspects of Xxiphu and the Sovereignty in general.
What I cannot understand is why certain individuals seem to feel so strongly on the matter. As I pointed out the Sovereignty is a non-issue and is easy to ignore and even outright erase with absolutely no negative consequences.
So I'm developing the impression (rightfully or wrongfully) that the source of the strong emotions on the matter comes from one of two sources. Either it comes from a dislike of 4th Edition (since it was introduced in 4E FR), or it comes from a dislike of Bruce's more recent novels focusing on such beings (and therefore putting it more in the forefront in everyone's mind).
I'm not sure which it is or even if it is either. Maybe it is subconscious on the part of individuals here, but I don't ever recall people having strong reactions such as those seen here when discussing Illithid's or Beholders in the Realms.
do yourself a favor, dont even try to understand.
Btw, I think Xxiphu should be under water. I don't care if it moves. It really belongs well beneath the waves (or at least most of it does).
Btw, I think Xxiphu should be under water. I don't care if it moves. It really belongs well beneath the waves (or at least most of it does).
if they had done this, It might of been more tolerated.
well atlest since of it would of been there.......
Given I have played Call of Cthulhu for over ten years and I don't recall where they became "one-note" either for that matter.
And you like 4eFR - Game, Set, MATCH. :D
Maybe Bruce can turn Runequest into Cthulhu too, just for you, while he is at it? After all, according to what you just said, EVERY setting should be just like Call of Cthulhu.
In a delightfully boring copy of ancient Egypt and those things I can do anywhere else in the Realms if I felt like it.
You find ancient Egypt boring?
What will the mummies think?
Probably one of THE most interesting civilizations ever to arise, and one that has survived for far longer then any other. Nearly every setting has it's 'Egyptian' culture - if its so boring, why do designers keep using it?
I'm not sure which it is or even if it is either. Maybe it is subconscious on the part of individuals here, but I don't ever recall people having strong reactions such as those seen here when discussing Illithid's or Beholders in the Realms.
Because giant Catfish are a SILLY monster. They are NOT scarey... seriously.
I have nothing against aberrations, and I have used a few from time to time, but Aboleths BLOW CHUNKS, big time (IMHO).
Big, silly fish living in a flying fortress equals this guy -
And as I pointed out earlier, why does everything 'kewl' in 4e have to be 'flying'. The Shades weren't enough? Now everything has to be a mile above the PCs heads, causing a logistical nightmare for DMs?
Some things work in novels that simply don't in an RPG. There's a reson why Indian Jones kept his feet on the ground.
And you like 4eFR - Game, Set, MATCH. :D
And you don't. Game, set MATCH.
Don't tout your hatred of 4e as some sort of winning factor. As far as I am concerned, it only weakens your argument.
The sea monster, tentacle, multiple eyes aesthetic of the Aboleth is perfect for a Cuthuluesque villain. The Sovereignty was one of the best things to ever be added to FR. The post apocalyptic elements introduced with 4e FR was another. They are one of the few things that makes the Realms an interesting place to play in (for me).
What I cannot understand is why certain individuals seem to feel so strongly on the matter. As I pointed out the Sovereignty is a non-issue and is easy to ignore and even outright erase with absolutely no negative consequences.
-Yes, and no. Coupled with certain effects of the Spellplague, most notably being the actual, physical changes to the Inner Sea, the region is fundamentally changed- politically, economically, sociologically. To say that it all can be easily brushed away, using only the FRCG as a starting point, is "putting things lightly", or however that saying goes.
I'm not sure which it is or even if it is either. Maybe it is subconscious on the part of individuals here, but I don't ever recall people having strong reactions such as those seen here when discussing Illithid's or Beholders in the Realms.
-Concerning Aboleth, the focus behind the entire race has completely changed. Compare the depiction of Aboleth in earlier Forgotten Realms sources, like Tangled Webs, for example, to the more contemporary depiction found in the FRCG (and, presumably, later in Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy). Like I said earlier, I like my Aboleth to be aberrations of nature, not pseudonatural monstrosities. Concerning Beholders, or Illithid, there hasn't been a fundamental change to their very natures. Yet. If there comes to be one, I can guarantee that it will tick off a lot of people, just like this fundamental change in direction ticked off a lot of people. The change concerning Eladrin, from 3e to 4e, demonstrates just that.
its personal
do yourself a favor, dont even try to understand.
You're probably right, although based upon Markus' last post it seems that I was largely on the mark. I was hoping to find something more than just irrational emotion behind it. You know, "I dislike this aspect, this aspect and this aspect of it." So that I could then make suggestions for improvement (and thus have a productive discussion). Hell, I even showed how to axe it all together in their games (it's easier than getting rid of Elminster or some other Chosen was in 3E!)
Yet, in the end it seems that it is fueled by irrational hatred of 4E. So I guess no method of improvement or adjustment (even out right deletion) will satisfy them, and thus no productive discussion can be had on the matter.
What I think would have been interesting is if Ed Greenwood had introduced the Abolithic Sovereignty in 2E, and the reactions that it would have engendered from the same individuals posting here. I am fairly certain you guys will say you wouldn't feel any different, but I am not convinced that is true.
So I'm developing the impression (rightfully or wrongfully) that the source of the strong emotions on the matter comes from one of two sources. Either it comes from a dislike of 4th Edition (since it was introduced in 4E FR), or it comes from a dislike of Bruce's more recent novels focusing on such beings (and therefore putting it more in the forefront in everyone's mind).
And I could develop the impression that the source of positive emotions about the Abolethic Soverignty comes either from a "4E FR can do no wrong" defensiveness or a "tear everything old-style FR down and gut it!" type of mindset.
So much for impressions about what other people think. You get into the realm of beliefs about beliefs, and that's never good.
I think the aboleth are stupid, bottom line. So do others. You and a few others love them. My dislike of them has nothing to do with Lovecraft, because I really like Lovecraft. I simply think that they're -really- a bad copy of Lovecraft, and completely inappropriate to the setting. To me, aboleth are the equivalent of Jar-Jar Binks: they're painfully stupid, and jarring to the setting (pun intended, haha!).
Yet, in the end it seems that it is fueled by irrational hatred of 4E.
Well, you're consistent in being wrong, at least.
Gomez
-Concerning Aboleth, the focus behind the entire race has completely changed. Compare the depiction of Aboleth in earlier Forgotten Realms sources, like Tangled Webs, for example, to the more contemporary depiction found in the FRCG (and, presumably, later in Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy). ...
Exactly right.
Otherwise, if they still have that predawn fishy feel to them their farrealmsiness is not that prnonounced as you claim. At least to me.
But again, if I want fantasy Egypt I could do better with a textbook on ancient Egypt
And yet, neither Mulhorand nor Unther were meant to be copies of Egypt, but variants.
Funny, mine were able to figure out what was going on and what I designed in Xxiphu was pretty insane.
Ah, so they were able to understand the impossible, unknowable motives of the catfish? Do tell.
...Understanding the minds of alien creatures is impossible, it's why they are alien creatures and why plots around said things are relevant to begin with.
Oh, wait... I thought you said your players understood the motives of the catfish. Now we're back to impossible and unknowable.
Something that doesn't think at all human has many interesting plot possibilities and can be used in a wide variety of ways.
Then by all means, give some examples for the OP to see and use.
Actually it isn't and I guess I can carry off Lovecraftian adventures.
Given I have played Call of Cthulhu for over ten years and I don't recall where they became "one-note" either for that matter.
CoC is a very different game, however. The topic here is using Lovecraftian themes -within FR- so that they're interesting and engaging, and coming up with adventures that make sense, aren't one-note, and make the aboleth interesting in terms of what they want (rather than some vague 'terraforming' goal).
In a delightfully boring copy of ancient Egypt and those things I can do anywhere else in the Realms if I felt like it. Cormyr for example offers plenty of opportunities for a wide variety of intrigue and political plots; if I felt like it.
And yet, neither Mulhorand nor Unther were copies of Egypt. Similar themes, absolutely, but the presence of real deities, real magic, and the dynamic interactions with the neighbors they had in the Realms - those are very interesting on multiple levels. I'm sorry you refuse to see this.
If I want something genuinely alien and difficult for my PCs to understand to begin with (if you think dealing with things like Aboleths or similar is impossible then you haven't read enough actual Cthulhu to have a clue what you're talking about).
Well, insults aside (though this is your primary MO), I've played my fair share of CoC and I love that game. But those themes just don't belong in FR in that way, unless you kludge them in... and that's pretty much what's been done.
So now all we need now is an Aboleth named Jar-Jar?
-Said individual probably is living in Castle Greyhawk, with Drider-Man.
CoC is a very different game, however. The topic here is using Lovecraftian themes -within FR- so that they're interesting and engaging, and coming up with adventures that make sense, aren't one-note, and make the aboleth interesting in terms of what they want (rather than some vague 'terraforming' goal).
There is nothing unintresting about a race whose goal is to 'terraform' the Prime Material Plane into something more hospitable to them, killing all native life in the process. Also, this goal is not vague.
And yet, neither Mulhorand nor Unther were copies of Egypt. Similar themes, absolutely, but the presence of real deities, real magic, and the dynamic interactions with the neighbors they had in the Realms - those are very interesting on multiple levels. I'm sorry you refuse to see this.
Hello pot, meet kettle, he is black. I'm sorry, but copies of Egypt, but with "real deities, real magic, and (far from dynamic) interaction with fantasy neighbor countries (hello every single D&D copy, indeed any mythological/fantastical rendition, of a real world historical local ever written)" is not particularly interesting on any level (in my opinion). Alien beings attempting to transform the prime material reality into something hospitable to them, potentially killing all native life in the process, is. I'm sorry if you refuse to see this.
Or you could realize that taste and perspective are subjective, and just because you happen to not like something, that does not mean it has no place in the Realms.
You're probably right, although based upon Markus' last post it seems that I was largely on the mark. I was hoping to find something more than just irrational emotion behind it. You know, "I dislike this aspect, this aspect and this aspect of it." So that I could then make suggestions for improvement
If you just flat out don't like it, you neither need nor want any improvements. And most likes/dislikes are irrational.
You like vanilla icecream, someone else dislikes vanilla icecream. Neither of you have anything behind it other than irrational personal taste. Telling him to mix his vanilla icecream with bananas of chocolate doesn't help at all.
Oh, wait... I thought you said your players understood the motives of the catfish. Now we're back to impossible and unknowable.
Which brings us back to why we have the Far Realm in the first place: Because the impossible and unknowable places we used to have got "humanized" over the last couple of decades.
If anything still were as it should be, there would absolutely no need for an " impossible and unknowable" Far Realm, because the Abyss, Limbo, Mechanus and all these other " impossible and unknowable" planes should occupy this spot.
However through humans writting more and more about the entities human minds should not be able to comprehend these entities simply became human minds. With lot of HD and spell-like abilities, but human minds nonetheless.
We can understand Orcus or Demogorgon and that's the problem: We shouldn't be able to!
If more and more gets written about the Far Realm and the aberrations, over time they'll become understandable too. How could they not? After all if a human writes it, it can never be something beyond human comprehension or no human game designer would ever be able to write it.
So 20 years from now, after the Far Realm and the aberrations have become as tame as the plane and the outsiders, 7e will introduce the "Even Farther Realm" to show off something new, exciting and "impossible and unknowable".
No Fair!!!
Tony DiTerlizzi even makes Gnomes look cool!
Anyhow, its not so much how they look, but rather their usefulness to me. Anything I can do with Aboleths I can do with Illithids, who have legs, and can walk around.
Why couldn't it have been the Illithidic Soveriegnty? Just because Mindflayers have been over-exposed, so BC wanted it to look like he was doing something new and creative?
Its not that Aboleths are awful, but rather they are redundant with other races which are more useful (to ME, as a DM). I would only use them in a comedic situation, wherein my players are attacked by 'Skum' (In all honesty... how can you take THAT name seriously?)
If I wanted a Cthulhuesque adventure (I used to do a horror arc every October for my players), I could even use the Locathah, and have them kidnapping humans from some obscure village and using a corrupted artifact to breed with them (which is what we did in the Ue thread). At least Locathah can walk ashore and do some damage - I use them like Murlocs from WoW.
Anyhow, like I said, I have nothing against aberrations (even if I personally use them sparingly), and I also have nothing against Aboleths, aside from the fact that I don't find them useful as major villains (However, a BBG for single evening's fun, as in 'The Village' scenario above, could be interesting).
The funny thing is that this thread has given me a VERY good idea for my own setting... available soon. ;)
If you just flat out don't like it, you neither need nor want any improvements. And most likes/dislikes are irrational.
You like vanilla icecream, someone else dislikes vanilla icecream. Neither of you have anything behind it other than irrational personal taste. Telling him to mix his vanilla icecream with bananas of chocolate doesn't help at all.
Which brings us back to why we have the Far Realm in the first place: Because the impossible and unknowable places we used to have got "humanized" over the last couple of decades.
If anything still were as it should be, there would absolutely no need for an " impossible and unknowable" Far Realm, because the Abyss, Limbo, Mechanus and all these other " impossible and unknowable" planes should occupy this spot.
However through humans writting more and more about the entities human minds should not be able to comprehend these entities simply became human minds. With lot of HD and spell-like abilities, but human minds nonetheless.
We can understand Orcus or Demogorgon and that's the problem: We shouldn't be able to!
If more and more gets written about the Far Realm and the aberrations, over time they'll become understandable too. How could they not? After all if a human writes it, it can never be something beyond human comprehension or no human game designer would ever be able to write it.
So 20 years from now, after the Far Realm and the aberrations have become as tame as the plane and the outsiders, 7e will introduce the "Even Farther Realm" to show off something new, exciting and "impossible and unknowable".
There is nothing unintresting about a race whose goal is to 'terraform' the Prime Material Plane into something more hospitable to them, killing all native life in the process. Also, this goal is not vague.
Actually it's already uninteressing from the very first sentence. And even worse: It's already humanizing them from the very start. They should have at least given them a little time to be "impossible and unknowable" before starting down that road
Hello pot, meet kettle, he is black.
The fallacy of this phrase has already been pointed out on some other thread. You are basically agreeing with him that it's boring.
Because the pot is 100% correct in calling the kettle black. That he himself is also black does nothing to refute the blackness of the kettle in any way.
So you're basically agreeing that the whole aberration/far realm thing is boring, and only add that what came before is boring too.
So both are boring, but you're chic is still boring.
And I could develop the impression that the source of positive emotions about the Abolethic Soverignty comes either from a "4E FR can do no wrong" defensiveness or a "tear everything old-style FR down and gut it!" type of mindset.
1. There are plenty of things I dislike about 4th Edition. In fact, my Realms has major changes from the official 4E FR. My support of 4E FR has come, and continues to come, from the method in which it was designed. It was designed with those who want to game in the Realms in mind, DM's specifically. It was presented in a way that is modular, easy to make adaptations to without having to do extensive work (outside of what you change), and is even built so you can import a region into a homebrew setting wholesale if that is your desire. (Meaning that you don't have to use the entire setting if you don't want too.) NPC's by and large are left statless and left up to the DM to decide what is appropriate for his or her game, and 4E FR goes out of its way to be accessible to both new and old gamers alike. The old lore is still mostly valid allowing a DM to update it and progress the timeline as he or she sees fit for their game.
Thus, in the end, 4E FR to me is what you make it. When an individual says, "I hate X" it doesn't make sense. If you don't like something you have the ability to change or remove it. To view something as set in stone is the mindset created and engendered by older versions.
That doesn't mean 4E FR doesn't come with it's trade-offs. As a result of the above, it's lore is painted in with broad strokes leaving many of the details out and up to the DM. That means we have less to discuss here on the forums compared to older editions. 4E FR lore wise also brought back too many long dead civilizations for my tastes and tried to be too fantastical. A lot of my disagreements with 4E FR has to do with tone, for example: I still don't think the setting feels dark or grim enough for my personal tastes.
I also think some areas haven't really progressed from previous editions, but I understand why they left them more-or-less the same. Those areas are the more iconic "core" areas of the setting (such as Cormyr and the Dalelands), and thus were left the same for older players.
I am not a big fan of some of the changes dealing with the deities, either. I supported some type of shake-up among the gods though, but I would have preferred to see the gods become more removed from the mortal world (and thus are less interventionist) and the focus placed upon the churches themselves. That's the route my Realm's took as a result.
So no - I don't think "4E FR can do no wrong" - there is plenty I think it did wrong. There are also things that I think it did right, or did well enough that I'd use it, even in previous editions. The Abolithic Sovereignty is one of those things.
2. Neither do I hold to the view of: "tear everything old-style FR down and gut it!" There were many things that I disliked about previous editions in FR, and there were many things that I loved. One of those things was the lore, which I greatly miss in 4th Edition.
The difference and the main selling point for me is that previous editions of FR were built like a gordian knot. Everything was interwoven and overlapped. Making what might appear to be a simple change had serious repercussions that effected the setting in ways that you might not immediately anticipate.
4E solved that problem the same way Alexander the Great did - a bold stroke with a blade to cut the knot. There was a trade off in the depth of lore, of course, but I also like to build things and unleash my creative juices upon the setting. So, if it is lore I am after and I am not interested in gaming then I focus on previous editions. If I want to game (and this forum is designed with FR D&D in mind) I go for 4th edition.
I think the aboleth are stupid, bottom line. So do others. You and a few others love them. My dislike of them has nothing to do with Lovecraft, because I really like Lovecraft. I simply think that they're -really- a bad copy of Lovecraft, and completely inappropriate to the setting. To me, aboleth are the equivalent of Jar-Jar Binks: they're painfully stupid, and jarring to the setting (pun intended, haha!).
Well, you're consistent in being wrong, at least.
You see - this is exactly what I am talking about. I don't understand the bitterness or the vitriol. I'm not saying it's wrong to hate the Aboleth or the Abolethic Sovereignty. There is nothing *wrong* with disliking them, it is a matter of personal taste and perfectly valid. What I don't understand is the manner in which you express your point of view, and continue to do so.
As I stated again and again, if you dislike the Abolethic Sovereignty they are easy to ignore or delete completely with absolutely no repercussions. Yet, that does not satisfy you. Why?
Why waste your time here in this thread at all if you hate them so much? Why continue to express yourself in such an angry manner, when (to me at least), it doesn't seem at all appropriate to the situation.
If you just flat out don't like it, you neither need nor want any improvements. And most likes/dislikes are irrational.
You like vanilla icecream, someone else dislikes vanilla icecream. Neither of you have anything behind it other than irrational personal taste. Telling him to mix his vanilla icecream with bananas of chocolate doesn't help at all.
But that's not how the discussion is going at all. I've stated again and again (this has to be like the 8th time), that someone who doesn't like the Abolethic Sovereignty can either ignore them or completely erase them from their Realms with absolutely no repercussions at all.
From my perspective this is how the conversation is going:
Them: "I hate the Abolethic Sovereignty and Aboleths."
Me: "Okay, you can remove them with no trouble."
Them: "You don't understand. I REALLY hate them."
Me: "Okay. Well, you don't have to use them, they aren't really interwoven in anything and are easy to axe from the setting."
Them: "Are you an idiot? I hate the Abolethic Sovereignty and Aboleths!"
Me: "....."
That's how the discussion seems to be going from my perspective. So yes, it is completely irrational. :P
I found pirates and abberations mix pretty well. Pirates mix with anything well actually ^^
So was the Society of the Kraken in the 14th century realms the precursor or scout for the abolythic sovereignity?
Davy jones
I'd suspect it was largely because of Mr. Cordell's prominence in the FR of 4e... its has been pushed into the limelight, and its difficult to ignore because of the feeling that the Far Realms has largely been injected wholecloth into the Realms, mostly due to his enjoyment of them. For those of us who dislike them, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth that becomes increasingly difficult to ignore because we know very little else is going to be forthcoming, so we're pretty much stuck with it if we decide to migrate to 4e. Prior to 4e, they were in the background and largely ignorable, but much like Shar, they're rather front and center in a lot of ways now, so taking them out feels much more daunting than it did before due to their influence on the balance of power.
But you see - that whole way of looking at it is wrong. Here is what I can understand:
1. They certainly have more focus due to the novels. That's true. However, the reality is that is simply perception and not actual reality. It's the same issue with the Chosen in previous editions. People felt that they were everywhere, solving all the problems, and stealing the limelight away from PC's. That wasn't the actual reality of the setting, but that was the perception created by the novels.
So I can understand the perception argument and personal distaste of them.
2. But here is where I see that line of thinking as wrong on a factual level. Look at the FRCG. Read the information about the Abolethic Sovereignty and Xxiphu. It is very sparse. They have very little connection with outside groups, nations, organizations, etc. They aren't pervasive, they aren't even treated as major villains. (And by major villains of the setting, I'd classify the Zhents and Red Wizards of previous editions in such a category.) If you want a comparison from a previous edition I'd give you the House Karanok, the Kraken Society or the Knights of the Shield. I'd wager that a lot of people who are reading this thread have no idea who those organizations are or what they did / do.
That is more or less the amount of focus placed on the Sovereignty, but with the added bonus that it is virtually cut off from everything else. So you could remove it and notice absolutely no difference in the game. You could play a campaign (an entire campaign!) on the Sea of Fallen Stars and not involve them at all.
Compare that to removing Netheril in 4E, the Zhents or Red Wizards in 3E. Hell compare that to killing Elminster in your campaign or pretending that he never existed. There are consequences to those decisions. They create ripple effects and power vacuum's that must be filled or replaced.
Not so with the Abolethic Sovereignty.
As a result this entire statement is factually inaccurate:
Prior to 4e, they were in the background and largely ignorable, but much like Shar, they're rather front and center in a lot of ways now, so taking them out feels much more daunting than it did before due to their influence on the balance of power.
But that's not how the discussion is going at all. I've stated again and again (this has to be like the 8th time), that someone who doesn't like the Abolethic Sovereignty can either ignore them or completely erase them from their Realms with absolutely no repercussions at all.
From my perspective this is how the conversation is going:
Them: "I hate the Abolethic Sovereignty and Aboleths."
Me: "Okay, you can remove them with no trouble."
Them: "You don't understand. I REALLY hate them."
Me: "Okay. Well, you don't have to use them, they aren't really interwoven in anything and are easy to axe from the setting."
Them: "Are you an idiot? I hate the Abolethic Sovereignty and Aboleths!"
Me: "....."
That's how the discussion seems to be going from my perspective. So yes, it is completely irrational. :P
-Yes, and no. Coupled with certain effects of the Spellplague, most notably being the actual, physical changes to the Inner Sea, the region is fundamentally changed- politically, economically, sociologically. To say that it all can be easily brushed away, using only the FRCG as a starting point, is "putting things lightly", or however that saying goes.
-That said, you are fundamentally approaching the debate wrong. In a debate about whether or not someone likes them or not, as this discussion has evolved into, evoking the overused "In Your Forgotten Realms..." trope doesn't mean, or do anything. In the end of the day, Therise, Cyber_Dave, or anyone else can remove Xxiphu from "their"* Forgotten Realms, but that doesn't change the fact that they don't like Xxiphu, or do like Xxiphu. They're removing it, or whatever else, precisely because they don't like it.
*Which is only limited to those who actively play D&D, which is only a partial reflection of those who participate here.
But that's not how the discussion is going at all. I've stated again and again (this has to be like the 8th time), that someone who doesn't like the Abolethic Sovereignty can either ignore them or completely erase them from their Realms with absolutely no repercussions at all.
Consider this: the very same argument above could have been (and was, repeatedly) used when people complained about Mystra's Chosen being in the Realms and messing up their game, or the Harpers, etc. People could "just as easily" remove anything they didn't like from their home game.
But now that they're -actually- gone in the official FRCG, it really -does- make a difference, doesn't it?
With a shared world, when designers put something into prominence, it matters to people. Therefore, people should be allowed to have their opinions, either way.
Why not simply allow people to have said opinions, rather than (as Mirtek says) tell me or someone else in a snotty and superior way it's irrational that I don't like bananas or chocolate in my ice cream? You apparently need to tell people that they're wrong or irrational. It's like you MUST have us accept your reasoning. And that's funny, because in matters of taste NO ONE uses reasoning, ever. You can rationalize x and y, but no one will buy a product if it doesn't sit right with their gut.
And again, for the fourth or fifth time, I don't have "vitriol" or "hatred" going on here. I'm expressing an opinion, it's personal taste. I'm sorry that you don't like hearing opinions.
Mirtek has the right of it.
-That said, you are fundamentally approaching the debate wrong. In a debate about whether or not someone likes them or not, as this discussion has evolved into, evoking the overused "In Your Forgotten Realms..." trope doesn't mean, or do anything. In the end of the day, Therise, Cyber_Dave, or anyone else can remove Xxiphu from "their"* Forgotten Realms, but that doesn't change the fact that they don't like Xxiphu, or do like Xxiphu. They're removing it, or whatever else, precisely because they don't like it.
*Which is only limited to those who actively play D&D, which is only a partial reflection of those who participate here.
Consider this: the very same argument above could have been (and was, repeatedly) used when people complained about Mystra's Chosen being in the Realms and messing up their game, or the Harpers, etc. People could "just as easily" remove anything they didn't like from their home game.
But now that they're -actually- gone in the official FRCG, it really -does- make a difference, doesn't it?
With a shared world, when designers put something into prominence, it matters to people. Therefore, people should be allowed to have their opinions, either way.
Why not simply allow people to have said opinions, rather than (as Mirtek says) tell me or someone else in a snotty and superior way it's irrational that I don't like bananas or chocolate in my ice cream? You apparently need to tell people that they're wrong or irrational. It's like you MUST have us accept your reasoning. And that's funny, because in matters of taste NO ONE uses reasoning, ever. You can rationalize x and y, but no one will buy a product if it doesn't sit right with their gut.
And again, for the fourth or fifth time, I don't have "vitriol" or "hatred" going on here. I'm expressing an opinion, it's personal taste. I'm sorry that you don't like hearing opinions.
Mirtek has the right of it.
This is where the discussion has gone off the rails. I am not arguing about perceptions or opinions. I am arguing about facts. I don't have an issue with anyone's opinion here, as I don't really care if any one individual likes the Abolethic Sovereignty or not.
My concern and my problem with this discussion is that people are acting as if 4E FR was MEANT to be used as is with no changes what-so-ever. You are treating it as if it were 2nd Edition or 3rd Edition. It is not. In effect you've been given a tool and you're using it wrong, and it is no different than if you tried to use a hammer on a screw instead of a screw driver.
Take a look at page four, the first real page of the FRCG (after the Contents). Read "NOT "FR"? NO PROBLEM!"
You can take advantage of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide (and its companion volume, the Player’s Guide) even if your campaign is not set in the world of Toril.
All of the concepts and details in this book can work just as well in a setting that you have devised yourself. In other words, you can pick and choose, using the parts of this material that you find most interesting or most compatible with your current setting. By doing so, you can inject the wonder and intrigue of Faerûn into your game while keeping all the elements of your existing world that you and your players have become accustomed to.
For example, the realm known as the Underdark had its beginnings in earlier FORGOTTEN REALMS products.
Since then, that term and all it encompasses have been adopted into the core D&D rules. Although you can certainly create your own Underdark if you want to, there’s a fully developed version of the World Below waiting for you inside these pages.
Remember, your setting is always unique to you. It is what you and your players make it. That’s true whether you use every bit of a book like this one, or whether you use it as seasoning to spice up the world you’ve already made.
The FRCG was designed intentionally to be modular, and one of the core assumptions (that is obvious to anyone who reads it) is that a DM isn't going to use everything, or use things as specifically outlined. In essence, what is printed in the FRCG is nothing more than a suggestion or a general guideline.
Sure, there is still an official timeline and setting specific canon. However, for actual gaming purposes this is how the product was designed to be used.
Thus, arguing about something you dislike in 4E is rather pointless. Unless you're saying something like, "I didn't like X, so I removed it and replaced it with Y."
Stopping on a thread to declare that you hate something seems rather silly, doesn't it, especially when the OP was asking for assistance. It isn't constructive, it isn't helpful, and frankly doesn't make any sense.
----
Another point to my argument is that people are confusing opinions with facts. To take Therise's example, this is literally no different than the Chosen. I think most people who post here will agree that certain individuals had irrational perceptions of the Chosen. (The old, "My players can't do X because Elminster / Chosen X will stop it / save them / do whatever.")
We all know that isn't true, but it was a perception created by the novels. The Chosen featured prominently in the most well known Realm's novels, and thus coming to the Realms after reading them COULD leave that impression. However individuals who have a mistaken perception of the Realms are still factually inaccurate when it comes to the "reality" of the Realms. The reality of the Realms is that Elminster / Chosen X wouldn't necessarily be there to save the day unless the DM put him there.
I'm an individual who hated the Chosen. I hated them as concepts, I hated the way they were implemented, and I hated the perception they created via the novels. Yet, rarely have I ever stepped into a thread about the Chosen to simply state that fact. In fact, the main threads on the matter that I've ever jumped into were discussing their existence in general (either pro-Chosen or anti-Chosen).
Which is why I find it hard to understand why individuals would come to this thread simply to state their dislike. It doesn't make any logical sense. Let's say someone created a thread asking about some item that Elminster has in his possession. The only reason I'm going to respond to that thread is if I have information relating to the OP's topic. I'm not going to jump into the thread to voice my opinion on the character.
So then, why waste time out of your day to simply say you hate something and contribute nothing to a thread and the OP's needs outside of a personal opinion?
Why does this bother me? Because I came to this thread to contribute. I came here to have a discussion on how to use the Abolethic Sovereignty in a campaign. I don't give a crap if you like it or not. It is utterly irrelevant not only to the discussion, but to everyone who reads it.
It's your opinion. Fine. I don't care, but why are you going to clog up this thread with it and derail the topic? Read Markus' post's. It is very clear that one of the primary reasons he hates the Abolethic Sovereignty is because it was added in 4E. Again and again (and I will post quotes if I must) some individuals who have come to this thread simply to state their dislike for the Sovereignty have attacked 4E. It's been an attitude of basically, "The AS sucks, just more crap they added in 4E and ruined the Realms. Woe is me. I'm bitter and I'm going to post over and over again to derail the topic so they can't actually have a productive discussion."
It is beyond frustrating. So, okay. We know you don't like it. We know you don't like 4E, that you want to burn Bruce at the stake, and that you hate the Abolethic Sovereignty. That's good. We've heard your opinion - now we'd like to actually have a productive discussion.
It is this type of attitude displayed here, and the constant derailing of threads that makes me dislike these forums. Very few people actually spend time to be helpful or contribute anything worthwhile except their opinion. The thread was not meant to be a debate.
So it would be nice if those who want to actually bash the Sovereignty create their own thread so we can return this one back toward its original purpose.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
And yet, neither Mulhorand nor Unther were meant to be copies of Egypt, but variants.
Okay, bad variants instead of copies. I still think they add absolutely nothing to the realms except an unnecessary copy.
Ah, so they were able to understand the impossible, unknowable motives of the catfish? Do tell.
No, but they were able to glean some of the ideas of what the creatures were attempting to do and they could certainly figure out what the game was about. It was hardly "impossible" to understand in the sense of the actual games plot as you implied.
Oh, wait... I thought you said your players understood the motives of the catfish. Now we're back to impossible and unknowable.
Correct, they can understand what they were attempting to do in a limited sense but in a long term sense they are alien entities; if they were truly defeated or you just fell into a particular part of a eons long plot is part of what makes creatures like this horrifying.
Understanding what the games plot was about is possible; understanding what in the end the creatures truly wanted and if they actually really succeeded or not is another. A key feature of Lovecrafts writing; even when you "win" you probably just lost - nobody realises it yet.
Then by all means, give some examples for the OP to see and use.
More that you can get some opportunities to insult me I would figure actually, contrary to your last point I've seen the general "MO" of the people such as yourself on this board. Given that you seem to think it is impossible to write a coherent plot involving them and that you think such games are worthless why would I bother? I have little interest in engaging you in any dialogue about my 4E games as I view that as pointless to be honest.
None the less, that I enjoy the aspects that they can bend spacial dimensions as well as time I feel can be used in interesting ways. Especially when you start treating the Abolethic Sovereignty like the Yithians mixed with the Mi-Go from Lovecrafts writings.
CoC is a very different game, however.
I couldn't tell, ten years of playing it has clearly got it firmly confused with DnD in my mind.
The topic here is using Lovecraftian themes -within FR- so that they're interesting and engaging, and coming up with adventures that make sense, aren't one-note, and make the aboleth interesting in terms of what they want (rather than some vague 'terraforming' goal).
Which apparently you've decided ahead of time is impossible. That's fine, your welcome to your blind irrational hatred based on utterly nothing to be honest.
Just like I can view places like FR Ancient Egypt as worthless based on the same logic
And yet, neither Mulhorand nor Unther were copies of Egypt. Similar themes, absolutely, but the presence of real deities, real magic, and the dynamic interactions with the neighbors they had in the Realms - those are very interesting on multiple levels. I'm sorry you refuse to see this.
I don't view that as interesting on any level whatsoever and neither do I view it as anything exceptionally different than what many other areas in the realms can offer me.
Well, insults aside (though this is your primary MO)
I love how you think people disagreeing with you is being "insulting", especially when you started this whole discussion by stating things that many players do enjoy (in a thread about them specifically) are worthless.
Bear that in mind for a while.
But those themes just don't belong in FR
I'm sorry, but you don't dictate what does and doesn't belong in FR.
And you know what? I don't care what you think does and doesn't
My players enjoyed the game with the Abolethic Sovereignty and thought it was excellent. In the end, why do I care what you think about an aspect that added to my FR games and produced a fun campaign?I don't and I know blatantly and boringly copying ancient Egypt never added anything of value to my realms games
Unless you can explain why this concept that gave me an interesting plot thread to develop, my players a lot of fun and a good campaign was a bad thing; I don't care anymore to be honest.
The fallacy of this phrase has already been pointed out on some other thread. You are basically agreeing with him that it's boring.
Because the pot is 100% correct in calling the kettle black. That he himself is also black does nothing to refute the blackness of the kettle in any way.
So you're basically agreeing that the whole aberration/far realm thing is boring, and only add that what came before is boring too.
So both are boring, but you're chic is still boring.
I obviously was not clear. The pot calling the kettle black does not refer to both being boring, but both being subjective opinions. Neither is empirically boring. Neither empirically has no place in the Realms. Neither is empirically interesting. Neither is empirically better or worse. However, a lot of people here seem to be making claims to either effect. I was trying to remind people (in this case, specifically people with tastes oppositional to mine) that just because their tastes do not match up with the tastes of their opposition, that does not mean that the tastes of the opposition are wrong, or worse. I personally (and this is a very personal opinion) did not care about the Egypt fantasy clones. On the other hand, I find the Abolethic Sovereignty, and the spellplague, very interesting. These are the things that make me want to play a Forgotten Realms game as opposed to an Eberron game. Now, I totally get that some people disagree. I totally get that some people have different tastes. And that is cool! Difference makes the world go around. But that doesn't mean that there is nothing interesting or wonderful about the Abolethic Sovereignty. They are extremely interesting. What that means is that you (the theoretical 'you,' not some specific person) happen to not like that particular group. Great. So you don't like them. I do. I will use them in my game. You are by no means beholden to. But the second you claim that they have no place in the Realms, or they are an empirically inferior aspect of the 4e Forgotten Realms, you are a pot calling the kettle black. Because I'll be honest, until stuff like the Abolethic Sovereignty, I really didn't see anything in the Realms that made me consider the setting worth playing.
This is where the discussion has gone off the rails.
-In the sense that attempting to demonstrate to others why they are "wrong/misguided", when there is no actual substance to any of it, being as that there isn't an actual answer, period, right.
My concern and my problem with this discussion is that people are acting as if 4E FR was MEANT to be used as is with no changes what-so-ever. You are treating it as if it were 2nd Edition or 3rd Edition. It is not. In effect you've been given a tool and you're using it wrong, and it is no different than if you tried to use a hammer on a screw instead of a screw driver.
Take a look at page four, the first real page of the FRCG (after the Contents). Read "NOT "FR"? NO PROBLEM!"
The FRCG was designed intentionally to be modular, and one of the core assumptions (that is obvious to anyone who reads it) is that a DM isn't going to use everything, or use things as specifically outlined. In essence, what is printed in the FRCG is nothing more than a suggestion or a general guideline.
Sure, there is still an official timeline and setting specific canon. However, for actual gaming purposes this is how the product was designed to be used.
Thus, arguing about something you dislike in 4E is rather pointless. Unless you're saying something like, "I didn't like X, so I removed it and replaced it with Y."
-This is no different from 1e, 2e, or 3e, where the DM always had the reserved right to do whatever he/she wanted (Rule 0). Nothing new.
-You are evoking the "In Your Forgotten Realms..." trope. In someone's Forgotten Realms, they can have cheese monsters take over the world via hypnosis waves transmitted from the moon. What someone does in their own game has no bearing on the official, canon Forgotten Realms. In any debate, be it about the Xxiphu Aboleth, Mulhorand, Elminster, Evermeet, whatever the topic is, saying, "In my Forgotten Realms, I [some change], and therefore [generally positive results]" does not then translate into "[Problematic issue for whatever reason] never existed/doesn't exist".
What someone does in their own game has no bearing on the official, canon Forgotten Realms, which is what we talk about.
Which in reality I don't think anyone cares about. I don't run a "canon" FR game anymore, because I don't even like the "canon" FR. I also find this edition is far easier to just boot things out if you dislike them. The Aboleths never actually need to do a *thing* in the Sea of Fallen Stars if you don't want them too. They sometimes appear now and again, but what they are doing and why is entirely up to the DM. If you don't want to involve them in your game, they aren't like a big nation slam dunk in the middle of the map you just never need to have them appear at all.
It really is that simple and certainly puts most of the complaining into perspective. They literally don't get involved with anything (having no fixed place, borders or similar) unless the DM specifically decides they do in a campaign.
-Illuvrien first pointed out to me, how a lot of people do that. Making matters worse is that it assumes that there's a D&D game going on, as opposed to just setting information.
-Like I said in my edit afterwards (just copying and pasting), "In any debate, be it about the Xxiphu Aboleth, Mulhorand, Elminster, Evermeet, whatever the topic is, saying, "In my Forgotten Realms, I [some change], and therefore [generally positive results]" does not then translate into "[Problematic issue for whatever reason] never existed/doesn't exist".
Actually I've heard that argument before.
It's distinctly familiar.
Oh wait, that's actually my argument from a while back! I'm curious to see you've changed your tone on that actually, which is interesting to see. The Aboleths are, quite frankly, impossible to find unless someone makes them possible to find. In game terms, they can't do anything unless your DM lets them for a wide laundry list of reasons. Being alien, they don't even require explanations for why you could sit pretending to be catfish bait for about 3 years and never see them etc.
They are simply completely ignorable in game terms.
Illuvrien first pointed out to me, how a lot of people do that. Making matters worse is that it assumes that there's a D&D game going on, as opposed to just setting information.
The novels being canon is one of the most awful decisions made with FR and I stand by that.
Given that you seem to think it is impossible to write a coherent plot involving them and that you think such games are worthless why would I bother? I have little interest in engaging you in any dialogue about my 4E games as I view that as pointless to be honest.
I didn't say it was impossible. I figured that since you have "10 years of experience" with CoC that you could come up with plots and motives that would maybe be of benefit to the OP, rather than you and Meldread focusing on me and what you both think I believe.
Which apparently you've decided ahead of time is impossible. That's fine, your welcome to your blind irrational hatred based on utterly nothing to be honest.
What "blind irrational hatred" are you referring to? My general dislike of aboleth as they're presented? Talk about misinterpreting me and dramatically overstating something. I never said such adventures were impossible, just really difficult for many DMs.
I'm sorry, but you don't dictate what does and doesn't belong in FR.
In my own FR, I do in fact dictate what belongs in FR.
And I can also let current designers know exactly what I think of various elements they've introduced into canon Realms. As we know, input of this kind can have an impact on the next edition (at least, that's what they've said). In the end, why do I care what you think about an aspect that added to my FR games and produced a fun campaign?
Yeah, I don't know why you're so bothered by my opinion either, given that you're consistently driven to post assumptions about me that are incorrect.
I didn't say it was impossible. I figured that since you have "10 years of experience" with CoC that you could come up with plots and motives that would maybe be of benefit to the OP, rather than you and Meldread focusing on me and what you both think I believe.
It's not actually just you, you just have the most direct venom really from page 1.
For example, you still have yet to give me a single solid reason for the worth of FR Ancient Egypt, because nothing you've said makes it interesting at all and importantly; can't be done in a whole bunch of other places in the realms. How many places in the realms can you fight truly alien entities in a gigantic floating fortress that bends time and space around it?
Not as many as countries that offer the same things as Ancient Egypt in FR for plots. But again, that is just how I interpret things and when I write plots for things like the Aboleths, I look at H.P Lovecraft primarily for inspiration. There is where I would advise the OP to go looking at, because that's where I went looking (as well as a wide variety of other horror writers).
What "blind irrational hatred" are you referring to?
Can I start from page one and work my way from there Therise? Although I thought the Jar-Jar binks comment was the real teller myself. I believe putting it in the context of one of the most widely despised Star Wars characters George ever made shows that you are in fact in the whole "Irrational hatred" category (because there is no way these are equivalent concepts for a wide variety of reasons).
In my own FR, I do in fact dictate what belongs in FR.
What a shame that as Lord Karsus has pointed out with his insightful comment above; it still doesn't actually change the canon realms. Not that I care or will ever care what the canon realms actually is anymore (for some pretty good reasons, like the really inconsistent applications of the spellplague and I dislike the novels plain verisimilitude destroying things at times: EG Unholy).
The novels being canon is one of the most awful decisions made with FR and I stand by that.
-Whether or not you like it, novels being canon is how it is. That wasn't reallyt the point I was attempting to make, though. Offering a fix such as, "Well, since I don't like...the Zhentarim being stupid, I retooled their ruling hierarchy such that only Lawful Evil Banites with an INT over 25 can be in charge, and instead of a single leader, a council of five shares administrative duties, so that everything goes through debate" doesn't do much, in that: (A) Homebrew fixes don't matter, in that official sourcebooks, adventures, and novels will still go by the original information that the person took offense to, to begin with, and (B) that type of advice hinges on the concept that the person has the capacity to alter things in a D&D campaign, which is not always the case, when a person is not a DM, or doesn't play D&D.
-That's not to say that, if a person doesn't like whatever, they shouldn't be entitled to rework things however they want. Offering a suggestion to make things better doesn't eliminate the fact that the person took offense to whatever that material was (so long as there is a actual and valid complaint there).
It's not actually just you, you just have the most direct venom really from page 1.
Huh? Venom?
For example, you still have yet to give me a single solid reason for the worth of FR Ancient Egypt, because nothing you've said makes it interesting at all and importantly; can't be done in a whole bunch of other places in the realms.
Because going into depth about Mulhorand and Unther is tangential only to your personal interest? If you really want to talk about them, I'm glad to. But make another thread or something.
How many places in the realms can you fight truly alien entities in a gigantic floating fortress that bends time and space around it?
None in my Realms, and my players like it that way.
Not as many as countries that offer the same things as Ancient Egypt in FR for plots. But again, that is just how I interpret things and when I write plots for things like the Aboleths, I look at H.P Lovecraft primarily for inspiration. There is where I would advise the OP to go looking at, because that's where I went looking (as well as a wide variety of other horror writers).
Then talk about it in some detail, offer some tips to the OP since you have the experience with it. Will it help if I promise not to say anything about the tips you come up with?
Can I start from page one and work my way from there Therise? Although I thought the Jar-Jar binks comment was the real teller myself. I believe putting it in the context of one of the most widely despised Star Wars characters George ever made shows that you are in fact in the whole "Irrational hatred" category (because there is no way these are equivalent concepts for a wide variety of reasons).
See, here's the thing. This "irrational hatred" thing is all your invention. I think that the aboleth are equally as stupid as Jar-Jar, that's true, and I also think the comparison is pretty funny. But "despise" and "irrational hate", that's your interpretation. It's dislike at most.
Some people like aboleth. Some people like Jar-Jar. I find them both laughable and dumb. That's all, nothing more. My ears don't burn like Yosemite Sam when I think about aboleth (or Jar-Jar).
In any case, you're continuing to concentrate on what you think I think. Try to let it go and move on. You've said that what I think doesn't matter to you, so try to let it go.
What a shame that as Lord Karsus has pointed out with his insightful comment above; it still doesn't actually change the canon realms. Not that I care or will ever care what the canon realms actually is anymore (for some pretty good reasons, like the really inconsistent applications of the spellplague and I dislike the novels plain verisimilitude destroying things at times: EG Unholy).
Canon is. Sorry, but you have to live with that.
Because going into depth about Mulhorand and Unther is tangential only to your personal interest?
Considering that it was bought up on page one and it is being used as a counter example. I find having "Egypt" translocated into the realms as offensively stupid a concept as you evidently find a city of alien beings because they... don't have understandable goals?
None in my Realms, and my players like it that way.
I've never had real world Egypt either and my players like it that way (actually it's partly because I've never even bothered running a campaign there in the entire time I've ever run the realms, moreso than consciously removing it), because they are too busy doing other things anyway. The same things they could be doing there, but don't have to :P
Then talk about it in some detail, offer some tips to the OP since you have the experience with it. Will it help if I promise not to say anything about the tips you come up with?
I've given my recommendation, which is to go and read H.P. Lovecrafts works; particularly inspiring to me was the Shadow out of Time as a matter of fact. Then go from there.
Edit: Also, it's more that I have zero motivation to write or even care about the realms anymore, beyond pointing out the obvious double standards some people have here.
See, here's the thing. This "irrational hatred" thing is all your invention.
When multiple people manage to come to the same conclusion, the problem isn't with them Therise.
Illuvrien first pointed out to me, how a lot of people do that. Making matters worse is that it assumes that there's a D&D game going on, as opposed to just setting information.
There -is- a D&D game going on - that's why this thread was created in the first place by Jefgodesky. This thread was not created to debate whether or not the Abolethic Sovereignty sucks or is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It was created by a DM who needed help with their campaign...
...and as a result of this debate, legitimate discussion has been stifled and over run, while individuals like myself (who tried to contribute legitimately to the thread) were drowned out.
I tried to address the "concerns" certain people had by using the "trope" you seem to dislike, in a misguided belief (in that I was giving them the benefit of the doubt) that they actually wanted to add something constructive to this thread. I fully accept that I hold some responsibility by trying to speak some type of reason to them so that the discussion could be put back on track. However, I am fairly confident that certain individuals here (not you LK) have suspect motives that goes beyond simple dislike of Aboleth or the Sovereignty.
That should be clearly evident to anyone who goes back and reads the first page of this thread, where said individuals jumped into a discussion where someone was asking for help on the forums, only to make snarky comments, not-so-vaguely hint at their dislike at all things 4E, while at the same time attacking Bruce. None of which was relevant (even remotely) to the purpose of the thread or the discussion.
Hence my being peeved.
That should be clearly evident to anyone who goes back and reads the first page of this thread, where said individuals jumped into a discussion where someone was asking for help on the forums, only to make snarky comments, not-so-vaguely hint at their dislike at all things 4E, while at the same time attacking Bruce. None of which was relevant (even remotely) to the purpose of the thread or the discussion.
All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again ;)
Edit: Also, it's more that I have zero motivation to write or even care about the realms anymore, beyond pointing out the obvious double standards some people have here.
As suspected.
When multiple people manage to come to the same conclusion, the problem isn't with them Therise.
Actually Aegeri, it often can be.
...and as a result of this debate, legitimate discussion has been stifled and over run, while individuals like myself (who tried to contribute legitimately to the thread) were drowned out.
If anything, you derailed yourself.
All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again ;)
I know, and that's what is truly sad. It is why I took a break from the forums. There are certain individuals here who are so hell-bent on crusading against all things 4E that they pop up in every thread even remotely related to the subject to voice their dislike. It's ridiculous.
Here are some quotes from page one that caused this thread to be derailed:
To end giant Catfish fishing in the Sea of Fallen Stars. :D
How did that comment address the OP's problems or contribute to helping him solve his issues? It was just a snarky dig at the aboleth. Not thread derailing in and of itself, so not really a major offense. Just a slight snarky comment.
No offense, but if you don't want to read more Bruce Cordell (and frankly, I can't blame you for that), why not create your own reasons and motives for the aboleth?
Granted, it's not easy because they're really quite non-Realmsian as presented by Cordell. It's what happens when a designer with a love of Cthulu-esque fantasy tries to inject that "alien entity" quality into a world where it doesn't really fit.
This is where the thread first began to go off the rails. Of course, even that in and of itself is not a major offense. Just the first drip in a series of drips.
Is there some place he hasn't tried to inject it into? I've been going over my 3e collection of late, and whenever I see his name on the credits somewhere, sure enough there's a creepy little abberration thingy popping up to devour our minds. Its just getting annoying at this point... maybe its just me, but when I think of that crap, the only thing that pops into my head is go get a job writing for CoC and leave D&D in peace.
Here is the second drip, caused in response to the first.
Don't get me wrong, I like Cthulhu fantasy. It's just that the Realms is absolutely the wrong place to tack that stuff into. With the Egyptian mini-setting, or even Maztica, one can at least say, "well, that's in a different part of the world" and either embrace it or ignore it depending on one's tastes.
But with Cthulhu and the aberration/alien-ish/far realms stuff, that's the kind of thing that alters the tone of the entire setting. To do Cthulhu fantasy right, it means certain things about the world and the planes have to be dramatically altered in tone. It affects everything on a fundamental level, and isn't just a campaign diversion like Maztica might be. It just doesn't belong, at all, given the clash between it and the original tone of the Realms.
...drip...
Exactly. As is true for aberrations/far realms, the same goes for Shar.
Frankly, I think the aboleth would be far more interesting if they were completely divorced from this far realms junk and given an actually interesting history that follows a Realms tone. Instead of what's been presented, it would have been unique and fun to see a novel about the Kuo-toa, perhaps, as they defend their undersea realm against enemies on multiple sides - including the aboleth. Maybe the aboleth were a magical experiment carried out by the Sarrukh, for uniquely lizardy motives.
Starts off with a swipe at 4E.
...drip....
BC has gone from a talented designer to a "one-trick pony". I like a lot of his older stuff, but he needs a new direction - this current one is his personal tastes, and really doesn't work for FR (Its perfect for Eberron, which makes me wonder why he isn't on THAT team).
....flood....
I come in after this and try and offer constructive help for the OP, only to be drowned out and stifled by the above discussion, which I then entered and tried to end unsuccessfully.
What I'd like to know from the people I quoted is this... what exactly does any of that do to address the OP's questions or concerns?
WARNING: I hope this thread will have lots of spoilers from Bruce Cordell's Stardeep, and the Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy.
My campaign's reaching the end of the paragon tier, and I've started pulling one of the character's old star warlock pact to bring in aboleths and the Abolethic Sovereignty. I plan to make them the main bad guys of the epic tier. I'm not a great fiction reader, so I'm not going to read Cordell's novels; I bought "Plague of Spells" months ago, and still haven't gotten past the first chapter. So, can someone tell me if any of Cordell's novels establish Xxiphu's purpose, or what the Abolethic Sovereignty wants?