I was working on a design for my first Forgotten Realms (4e) campaign. It was a level 1 adventure set in the Witchlight Fens, at least a month from any major town, and three days from the nearest village. The adventurers would investigate the disappearance of a halfling flotilla (a village on the water) while being stalked across marshes caught in a perpetual twilight.
I was going for the feeling of a Feywild touched Silent Hill when I set my pen down and said, “Oh, that’s good, but is it the Forgotten Realms?”
I don’t know.
I want to give my players the archetypical Forgotten Realms feeling. I know Eberron is pulpy fantasy, Ravenloft is gloomy horror, DarkSun is harsh, Dying Earth, and Planescape was a sort of ontological steampunk. What’s the Forgotten Realms?
What sort of adventures and moods typify the Realm?
-Anyway, the Forgotten Realms have many "flavors". Unlike many other settings, there isn't a single, overarching metaplot. There isn't a metaplot at all, actually. So, whereas, say Dark Sun campaigns have the same "feeling", because of the Dark Sun metaplot, or Dragonlance campaigns have the same "feeling" because of the Dragonlance metaplot, the Forgotten Realms don't have that problem- not that it's actually a problem having a metaplot, of course, but, for a lack of better words...
-You want to run a campaign that's set on the frontier, with unknown lands and unknown peoples? There's plenty of room for that, in the Border Kingdoms, or on totally new, detailed landmasses that exist all over the planet. You want to run an oriental campaign? There's Kara-Tur. You want to run a deep intrigue, thinking-man's game? The court of Suzail, the capital of Cormyr, is filled with it's fair share of secret agendas, planning, and plotting. Want to play a game that is 100% hack-and-slash? An Orc horde has erupted from the Spine of the World mountains. Go get 'em. Want to play a horror game? Some wizard somewhere has been making deals with a Demon, in exchange for power, and has been doing some very evil, vile, things to keep that power.
-Whatever you want, there's room.
4e Realms = a converastion about entomology with a CPA.
;) :P
But seriously, the 'Realms Feel' is "wheels within wheels", with a hundred differnt clandestine groups all competing for scraps of power, set amongst a backdrop of 30,000 years worth of crumbling empires and ruins.
It is a world where adventure awaits just around the corner.. or even within your own bedroom, if you stay in the wrong town.
That is what the Realms are to me - a world that never ceases to surprise or amaze.
Yes, I know I can set any type of story I want in the Realms. That can be said of any campaign world. I could turn My Little Pony the RPG into an adult-rated porn romp if I felt like it. I'm asking what the archtypical Forgotten Realms game feels like.
I'm not asking about metaplot - I'm asking about flavor and themes. If the Realms has no flavor then what makes it any different from base 4e DnD? It's now a just a collection of names and maps.
MarkusThay
But seriously, the 'Realms Feel' is "wheels within wheels", with a hundred differnt clandestine groups all competing for scraps of power, set amongst a backdrop of 30,000 years worth of crumbling empires and ruins.
Thank you! That's an answer I can use.
If a player came up to you and said, "My DM is going to play a game in something called the 'Forgotten Realms' and I want to get into character. What well-known books or movies (not the offical Realms books) best captures the feeling of that setting?" what would you recommed to them?
I'm not asking about metaplot - I'm asking about flavor and themes. If the Realms has no flavor then what makes it any different from base 4e DnD? It's now a just a collection of names and maps.
-The history of the setting, the people that populate that setting, the places that populate the setting (the names and maps), those are the things that differentiate it for 'Core' D&D. Other than that, no, it's isn't any different from 'Core' D&D, which is vague and general enough to be able to house any kind of campaign you want, just like any other setting would be no different from 'Core' D&D because of history of the setting, the people that populate that setting, the places that populate the setting, and so on.
If a player came up to you and said, "My DM is going to play a game in something called the 'Forgotten Realms' and I want to get into character. What well-known books or movies (not the offical Realms books) best captures the feeling of that setting?" what would you recommed to them?
-Again, there is no one single product that captures the essence of the whole setting. Especially novels. Novel series' deal with specific places, specific events, and specific people, during specific times.
-Specific novels can give a general feel for how things in the specific places they deal with happen. Silverfall: Stories of the Seven Sisters, written by Ed Greenwood, is, I think, the best representation of the kinds of stories that take place in the Forgotten Realms. The novel, which takes place in Waterdeep, has a variety of plots weaving in and out of each other, and features various protagonists and antagonists, from the mundane to the mighty. People aren't what they seem, and nothing can be fully taken at face value. With thousands upon thousands of years of history, this type of underlying intrigue is common in the Forgotten Realms. Waterdeep: The City of Splendors, by Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham, and Blackstaff, by Steven Schend, also do very good jobs at composing the complex symphony that weave a tapestry of intrigue.
I understand that you know and love the realms. I understand that you're trying to help me.
My problem is that I need specific help, which is why I'm asking for specific information, and you're ignoring what I need and am asking for in favor of what you want to give me.
<- This is the DM right now. She wants to run the Realms in a way that her players will find authentic, and she doesn't want to give them basic DnD with different names. She already knows how to make stories and change the names on the map; she wants to learn how to make Forgotten Realms stories. If Forgotten Realms stories are whatever I think up, then what do I need the campaign guide for? I already have my own homebrew setting. For my players, it would be no different than a regular game. I mean, if you go out and buy beef, fish, and tofu, and it all tastes like chicken, why not just get chicken?
Eberron, Exalted, the World of Darkness lines, Legend of the Five Rings, Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Al-Quidim, and Spelljammer all have flavors. They have themes and they have 'archtypical' adventures and moods.
Guys, I *want* to like the FR, but I'm starting to feel that what's supposedly DnD's most popular setting owes its success to not demanding much of a DM and being featured in a number of video games.
... I asked for something other than the offical Realms books.
-Again, it has a variety of plots weaving in and out of each other, featuring various protagonists and antagonists, from the mundane to the mighty. People aren't what they seem, and nothing can be fully taken at face value. Add in thousands upon thousands of years of history, and magic. I cannot cite another book or series that has those qualities. Perhaps Lord of the Rings, but with a greater amount and prevalence of magic, and an increased interaction between the mortal and the divine.
...and she doesn't want to give them basic DnD with different names. She already knows how to make stories and change the names on the map...
-This is what the Forgotten Realms is, as is every other campaign setting, official or homebrew.
If Forgotten Realms stories are whatever I think up, then what do I need the campaign guide for? I already have my own homebrew setting.
-The Forgotten Realms is a specific set of people/places/events. Your homebrew setting does not have these specific sets of people/places/events/etc. in the proper and exact sequence. Thus, it is not the Forgotten Realms. If you want to have the specific set of people/places/events/etc. in the proper and exact sequence that the Forgotten Realms has them set in, then you play in the Forgotten Realms setting.
In FR, not only were the Orcs working for a Wizard, but that Wizard was part of a larger organization of Wizards, that has been secretly infiltrated by yet another group of non-humans posing as human Wizards (some of whom have their own agendas).
As for the Orcs - they don't like working for the Wizard, but its better then the Dragon they used to work for... the one that just so happens to be looking for them. There is also a group of Kobolds working for the Orcs, but they have been keeping an eye on the Bugbears that the Orcs are usually fighting with in the next valley.
Of course, the Bugbears haven't been around much since that pack of werewolves killed most of them, after they themselves were run off from their former hunting grounds by a Vampire Lord...
And so on, and so on , and so on...
Thats the Realms - the more you scratch the surface, the deeper you realize things get.
And every city and town is built upon the ruins of an older city or town, which in turn is built upon the ruins of some ancient empire, or elven Kingdom, Or dwarven Hold, which in turn was built upon the remains of the creator races civilizations, etc, etc...
Thats the Realms feel - whenever the players think they know whats going on, you throw another twist at them (but not so many that it gets silly).
If you want an “authentic” Realms adventure, then I suggest you set your game in a location of the Realms that is well known and developed, such as Waterdeep, Cormyr or the Silver Marches.
Each of these places has a richly detailed history (in game products as well as novels) that you and/or your DM can draw from to build memorable, Realms-themed adventures around.
Take Cormyr, for example. Your DM can really spice up an adventure with hints of noble/royal intrigue amongst the sprawling halls and rooms of the Royal Court in Suzail , Zhentarim plotting to destabilize the Realm of Cormyr from secret hideouts in the Stonelands, nefarious plots hatched by outlanders based in Marsember, pirates from Westgate or places further afield in the Sea of Fallen Stars attacking Cormyrean shipping interests, War Wizards investigating the murder of a rich Sembian merchant on the streets of Suzail, HighKnights and Boldshields tracking brigands and orc tribes along the steep slopes of the Storm Horns and Thunder Peaks, and so on…
Playing in the Realms for a strong Realms feel isn’t just about using place names and locations, it’s about knowing a bit of the history and character of a specific region (like Cormyr) and efficiently describing what’s unique about it to your players even as the adventure progresses.
You must remember, though, that at its heart the Realms is just a backdrop to play D&D in. Your players will still be rolling dice, checking hit points and doing all the other things gamers do when they play D&D. A DM shouldn’t focus so much on trying to produce Realms-flavor that he forgets about actually running a good game.
Best of luck to you Hippokrene!
hard question to answer, but you seemd to sum up the other settings fairly well..
OK.
FR is a world filled with various sorts of magic, rich history, complex politics, and an unknowable number of factions.
So, where a standard D&D game may include the 'kill the orcs' plot, the FR version would have a number of intricate plot twists.
1. The Orcs may be employed by a neighboring country.
2. The ruler of the orcs is another orc, who is fascinated by ancient magical artifacts (which he has been stealing, and making use of to steal more)
The way it's different, is Everything is connected, and everything is connected to Faerun's rich history. It feels more real like that, nothing is as simple as it seems (and if it is, that's the exception, not the norm).
Beyond the connection to the history and current events, the flavour depends on what part of the realms youre playing in.
Waterdeep is a city with politics involving nobility, the nobility are often involved in illicit activities, there are factions controlling sections of the cities, and there are alot of swashbucklers and sailors who make use of the port. Just below waterdeep is skullport, a city of criminals. The people above mostly ignore skullport, because most of them are not largely effected by what happens there, and it's too big to stop. Also by waterdeep is undermountain, a complex, massive dungeon which was ruled by Halaster blackcloak (who died at the end of 3e). It's filled with monsters of all kinds, and it's an adventurer's wet dream (as long as they don't die when they go down there).
Cormanthor is a forest that houses millenia of elven history. The elves lost most of it, the drow started making settlements trying to take it over, the elves took it back. It is quite possibly the most magical place in Faerun. Particularly within the ruins of Myth Drannor.
The western Heartlands are alot like Ancient Greece. A series of Independent City States, all unwilling to be ruled by outside factions. This area is kindof like the Points of light type of play.
Menzoberranzan, is the largest city of Drow, and also the Archetypal drow city. The drow here worship Lolth, and order is maintained by the chaos of individuals everywhere trying to manipulate themselves into better positions through whatever means necessary, and within a very rigid social structure. Assinations are common, and hte city has no formal military. It is ruled by a series of houses, ranked in power, and each house maintains their own army. Occasionally houses war on eachother (but civil wars have to be quick or the agressor is squashed (for making the city vulnerable) so they only happen when one side knows they will win.
These are only a small example of the locales possible.
In addition, you have a number of global organizations which operate all over the world in various enclaves.
The Harpers are a group of do-gooders who operate in secret, and try to work for the freedom of the people of faerun from oppression.
The Cult of the Dragon are a bunch of psychos who believe the world will be controlled by undead dragons (and actively try to make it so)
The Red Wizards of Thay are human wizards who rule their country, and they are a massive enclave of powerful human wizards, always seeking to expand their power
again, only a small sample.
Forgotten realms has the advantage of being so all-encompassing.
to generalize it though, and because of the ancient empires all the modern civilizations are sitting on, FR has the 'feel' of power and high magic, even though it's often not there. Magic items are more common, and it says even most commoners have some magic items (non combat ones, like a broom that sweeps the house, or a frying pan that heats up without fire).
Your players are smaller fish in a bigger pond. There are adventurers everywhere; there were adventurers before your party, and there will be again when your party is dead Hell, it wouldnt be unlikely that your party could eventually run into a group of adventurers around their own level. maybe the antagonists could be OTHER adventurers. There are all sorts of important things going on. It's a big world. The higher level adventurers dont interfere with the lower powered ones, because the higher powered ones have their own problems to deal with.
Advice for your overarching campaign plot: make the antagonist have lots of connections. connect them to an evil organization, use the organization's goals somehow; maybe have the antagonist be USING the organization to further their own private agenda.
Or make the antagonists be other Adventurers, that are competing with the party, or that have conflicting goals (and thus need to eliminate the party, but they also want to save themselves).
to run a decent FR campaign, you do more research than in a homebrew campaign. You'll look up the information on the evil organization that you want to use, and you'll find pages (or even whole books if you'll look at old materials). You connect the various plot devices to FR history, or to locations, or to both. The world ends up feeling much more ALIVE this way.
Additionally, where FR is so big, the players can read up on alot of stuff, and even if they have all the back information, they still dont know what youre doing with it, cause there are so many possibilities. Plus, they understand the world better themselves, if they get to know all of its politics/history, and that can often make them roleplay better.
Another reason for researching, is if you get an FR afficionado for a player, eventually they will know something you dont, and it may affect your plot. there are many ways to deal with it, from changing what youre considering canon from official sources, to counting it as a hiccup and then pretending thats just the way things have always been, to researching the topics involved so that doesnt happen, or to acceding theyre right (if they can show evidence) and twisting your plot around the correction.
The only downfall of FR, is that there is occasionally bits of relevent information that is only found in the novels. I've seen people say that important game things in novels just dont count, ive seen people sya they do count. often players will just Assume they do count unless you told them otherwise in advance. most of hte time the novels wont hold anything you need to know. occasionally it will hold some information which owuld be useful but isnt necessary (though it can provide a place for a player to tell you youre doing something wrong, if you're counting novels as canon)
I haven't seen the 4e fr book though, so ome of the organizations/towns may be different/no longer exist.
Plain and simple - the devil is in the details. ;)
-Pure Win. :D
18DELTA ;)
That's just the general feel.
Bel
How about movies? Take the scope and grandeur of LotR add equal parts of Narnia, Princess Bride and Conan. I like to think there is some Hawk the Slayer in there, but that's just me.
That's just the general feel.
Bel
LOL Hawk the Slayer I haven't thought of that in years.
Playing in FR for me has always felt like a party in Hollywood (at least how I would imagine one) where you can meet someone you've read about or someone known the world over. The main differences are in FR you can stab them and the Judge Jury and Executioner is a d20. Or they can recognize you and admire you like some sycophants.
Wow re-reading that I sound like a Psychopath.
Wow re-reading that I sound like a Psychopath.
-Having taken your meds, do you feel any differently now?
How about movies? Take the scope and grandeur of LotR add equal parts of Narnia, Princess Bride and Conan. I like to think there is some Hawk the Slayer in there, but that's just me.
That's just the general feel.
Bel
Add in a touch of Army of Darkness, a scoop of Pirates of the Caribbean, a dash of Stargate (Imaskari), and maybe some Krull.
Oh yeah... and the Keystone Kops if your running anything with Zhents. :P
Check out the FR conversions for H1 and H2. H1 in particular really gives KotS a feeling that you're in the Realms by the background and descriptions it gives. Read them both, absorb that, and then design.
What sort of adventures and moods typify the Realm?
I found myself asking a similar question in the What the hell is Forgotten Realms? thread. I think I generally understand, so I'll share my perceptions.
It's not a campaign setting so much as a history. Most campaign settings consist of a unique style with just enough history/facts to support that style. Sharn gets the fluff of being a pulpy noir city because of the facts and history from whence that flavour grows, for example. Like plants growing from soil.
In other campaign settings, the focus and point is on the tone and flavour; there's only as much established history and fact as is needed to support the general theme. This is all well and good if you simply want to enjoy some new flavour, and don't mind adding your own soil here and there (fleshing out the sparser bits of the setting's lore yourself, for example) when necessary.
Forgotten Realms, as best I can tell, has all of the same old tropes as Generic Fantasy Roleplay, which makes it look intensely unappealing to those of us who want papayas and mangos instead of apples and oranges. Where it differs, however, is that it has rich, deep, fertile soil, and lots of it. Plenty of land to sow deep and interwoven plots. It's more work to use properly, because you're doing more researching and less creating, but it theoretically yields richer plots and stories.
Personally, I'm perpetually unimpressed by the Generic Fantasy Roleplay tropes, and feel that my stories, characters, and adventures are rich enough without drawing from hundreds of novels for backstory that I can whip off faster than a jaunt to the library, so I don't think the Realms are for me as such. I know that others work differently from me, however, so more power to those fine folk.
However, in instances where I'm not playing Eberron, Dark Sun, Planescape, or Oriental Adventures, where I do feel like something a little more old-school 'classic D&D', I'll turn to Forgotten Realms to scratch the itch. While it has the same flavour as Generic Grayhawk, it does so with a lot more detail, style, and quality. Thus I consider it a replacement for the crappy-ass 'Points of Light' setting, not an alternative as other campaign settings are.
Also, for those who enjoy the books, it must be absolutely splendid to have a tabletop setting in which they get to live the story. Hell, I'd give a dozen teeth (perhaps even one or two of my own) for a 4e-friendly Discworld setting as elaborate as the Realms. So there's another reason* to dig on it.
*For a motive out of left field, I've got a player who earnestly, eagerly wants me to run a Forgotten Realms campaign for absolutely no other reason than getting the chance to lop off Drizzt's head. :D
What sort of adventures and moods typify the Realm?
Heroic camaraderie. I know not everyone likes "light-heartedness" in their games/novels, but there is plenty of it to be found in the Realms.
If a player came up to you and said, "My DM is going to play a game in something called the 'Forgotten Realms' and I want to get into character. What well-known books or movies (not the offical Realms books) best captures the feeling of that setting?" what would you recommed to them?
Anything written by Ed Greenwood, creator of the setting. I know you asked for "non-FR" books, but why arbitrarily leave out books written by the setting's creator if what you want is something that best convey's the feel of his setting?
Guys, I *want* to like the FR, but I'm starting to feel that what's supposedly DnD's most popular setting owes its success to not demanding much of a DM and being featured in a number of video games.
If your feelings for the FR can best be described as lukewarm (apparently, you don't even like it right now), then why don't you use a setting that actually grabs you? Do you just want us to try to convince you to like the FR as much as we do?
The western Heartlands are alot like Ancient Greece. A series of Independent City States, all unwilling to be ruled by outside factions. This area is kindof like the Points of light type of play.
I don't think "Ancient Greece" is the most apt comparison--a "wild frontier" evokes the feeling of the place more effectively. I agree with your other comments, though--the Western Heartlands are very "PoL", described as "miles and miles of miles and miles."
Forgotten Realms, as best I can tell, has all of the same old tropes as Generic Fantasy Roleplay, which makes it look intensely unappealing to those of us who want papayas and mangos instead of apples and oranges.
Apples and oranges are exotic unless you live in China, which is where they originated.
For me, the 4e FRCG feels like someone took a corncob, shoved it down my throat without warning, and then shoved a hook up my nose and twisted it until my ears bled.
Really, this is the biggest genre betrayal ever.
I wasn't the biggest fan of the 3e changes to FR. The 4e Changes just disgust me.
It's really reaching the point where if there weren't some wonderful people on these boards like Rino and Karsus, and some close personal friends of mine, that I would walk away from the Realms forever.
Because let me tell you.
My players deserve better than to feel that the characters and world they love got a raw deal.
DB
For me, the 4e FRCG feels like someone took a corncob, shoved it down my throat without warning, and then shoved a hook up my nose and twisted it until my ears bled.
I thought you were going to say the corncob was shoved up a different orifice, actually.
My players deserve better than to feel that the characters and world they love got a raw deal.
Well, we can shape our Realms however we want, so I'm content with that at least.