One of my players is a Talos priest. So I would like to know what happend to him. He was a greater god in the 3e.
Yesterday I got my books but I couldn`t find him in the book.
THX
Does anybody know what happend zo Talos in the 4th?
One of my players is a Talos priest. So I would like to know what happend to him. He was a greater god in the 3e.
Yesterday I got my books but I couldn`t find him in the book.
THX
Gruumsh killed him and took his stuff aka he was an aspect of Gruumsh that was merged with him during the Spellplague, since every deity needed all the power they could get.
what really happened is that Talos and Gruumsh were playing a game similiar to
3d chess.
Talos loss and lost his life to gruumsh like Eilistraee did to lolth.
you see they new that the whole deal was a powder keg and did want us up in arms again......
not like we put the arms down to begin with
Does anybody know what happend zo Talos in the 4th?
My guess: Spellplague.
;) :P
So if they merged back together, shouldn't they have two good eyes now?
I thought Gruumsh just hit him over the head with a big club, breaking his 'a' so now it looks like an 'e', and he came crashing down to earth (Toril?) and landed in Vassa.
;) :P
So if they merged back together, shouldn't they have two good eyes now?
no, they have two evil eyes
A = B
B = C
A = C
This can work for my FR game. I ran a Silver Marches game and the main baddie was a cleric of Talos who was taking over the barbarians of the region.
This sounds like a fun campaign. But are you transporting your PCs 100 years into the 4E time
This sounds like a fun campaign. But are you transporting your PCs 100 years into the 4E time
Aye. When I actually run it.
I thought Talos was created when Selune and Shar first started fighting? Or is it the case that Gruumsh (and by extension Corellon) are older than Toril and Gruumsh created this persona to simply gain more followers?
no, they have two evil eyes
Nice. :D
What I think is interesting is that Auril, Malar, and Umberlee used to reside in Fury's Heart with Talos. One would think that, after he became Gruumsh, they would've stuck around, but nope. Instead they now reside in Silvanus' domain and effectively serve him.
Yeah, I know. I think that's hilarious. They used to be terrified of Talos, but then they find out he's really an Orc god, an then all of a sudden they're all like...
"WTF? We serve an Orc? Dude, I'm going over to Silvanus."
:P
Yes, I think this is one of the least logical changes they made. Also, if I am not mistaken didn't Silvanus and Malar use to be, you know... enemies?
I think it would have been funny had Malar gone over to Bane. I can just see him and Loviatar going out for a walk, with Loviatar having Malar on a leash, like a huge big mean ugly dog. :P
I think it would have been funny had Malar gone over to Bane. I can just see him and Loviatar going out for a walk, with Loviatar having Malar on a leash, like a huge big mean ugly dog. :P
Classic! Bane and Loviatar going for a walk with their pet, Malar, with Talona as an abused rotten teen?
But yeah, I think it works better than the whole Silvanus thing. If I am not mistaken in 2nd Edition Malar couldn't even have druids, and in fact actively encouraged his followers to kill them. He's never been one for balance, really.
So, instead just turn him into Bane's mean evil pet. Let Bane keep him in a cage, Loviatar take him on a walk (with a muzzle of course, and maybe a ball gag for fun), and when someone makes Bane angry he can just let Malar out.
It makes more sense and is funny, at least. Plus who doesn't want to worship Banes pet?
actually, Jannath the Earthmother was declared to be both an aspect of Chauntea and a separate being from Chauntea in 3rd ed.
Confusing, ain't it?
I think Auril, Malar and Umberlee going over to Silvanus is good as before he only mostly had neutral and good aligned lesser deities.
Bel
18DELTA :D
I think Gruumsh should have instead been rolled into Talos (just in FR, not core), and all the 'Storm Gods' kept in a seperate circle from the nature deities. Even though they represent an aspect of nature, they represent Nature's dark, destructive side, and its just odd having them serve under a good deity.
I agree wholeheartedly. Talos absorbing Gruumsh would have been much better IMO. Talos is a) awesome, b) very uniquely "realmsy" in a way Gruumsh cannot be and c) awesome. Gruumsh is just a generic god of "orc smash".
I hope that now Gruumsh at least has a Stormlord quality to him, to make him more interesting.
I hope that now Gruumsh at least has a Stormlord quality to him, to make him more interesting.
While that would be nice, I doubt it, seeing as how Auril and Umberlee no longer serve him. Damn shame, IMO. I would've really liked to have seen Auril, Malar, and Umberlee serving Gruumsh alongside Luthic, Bahgtru, and Shargaas.
...
*realises that that is not what Talos would do, so kills a small furry animal instead*
(In related news, a mate of mine has a WWTD wristband. What Would Talos Do? Like the "What Would Thor Do?" band from OOTS, just more badass. It has Talos' holy symbol on it)
I imagine it has something to do with a lightning bolt and shoving said lightning bolt into the posterior of some random passerby.
If there's damage by another divine or divine-like entity then it's treated like a mortal to mortal damage. Example is when kezef bit off Tyr's hand oh and One of Mask's too.
Yes, but even mortals have ways of either getting new eyes(the way Gromph did) or regeneration(spell).
Why of all the God's would they take out Talos? He should of been able to take out Gruumsh one on one. There is no way Gruumsh would beable to beat Talos at chess/sava either. When I think of Talos and Gruumsh playing chess I think of Chuck Liddell and Mike Tyson playing chess, doesn't make much sense does it? Not quite they're style.
Why destroy all this history, all these options, all that work for a system/game change?
It wasn't for a game/system change. You could argue the death of Mystra was for that but all the other deity changes have nothing at all to do with the 4E Rules. They thought we didn't need all of these gods. The designers basically have no idea what the Realms are really. They have made that abundantly clear.
He should of been able to take out Gruumsh one on one.
The basic idea was that Gruumsh and Talos were the same person. Ignoring that that was a dumb idea to begin with, it follows that Talos decided to make that clear to his followers, and use only one name to 'consolidate' his power.
Talos just lost it for a moment when he thought that Gruumsh would sound cooler (showing he can't be that smart. It must have been his Gruumsh persona).
Imo, Gruumsh and Talos being the same doens't mean you can't use Talos. Mucho subcults will continue to use that name, if only because people are stubborn and don't like change.
I could have been fine with this if they *actually* combined them, with the "surviving" one getting the other's portfolio. Otherwise its just not dandy.
Yeah, hardly any of the changes were really required to explain the edition changeover. If that's all it was, then it could've been explained away with Dragonborn being introduced in the Year of Lightning Storms thanks to Bahamut and Tiamat, a 20 year timejump (to give all those Dragonborn time to grow up), and Mystra changing the rules of magic on her own. Maybe a few other things. Nah, there're other reasons involved as to why they made these changes.
So has anyone heard the reasoning behind the mass chess/sava massacre of the God's? Why didn't Ao stop any of it?
To me this whole idea of the "massacre" was a horrible idea. It seems the older edditions were all written by history majors and people with imagination and a love of the fantasy world while the new eddition was written by the business/marketing majors and or the geek squad.
Your game can be anything you want... why would you listen to them?
There was a time I hung on every piece of lore the designers spoon-fed us, but those days are gone, and this 'new team' has clearly demonstrated that we can easily come up with better stufff, so why even listen to them at all?
Actually, WotC only killed the gods in your FR if you let them.
Your game can be anything you want... why would you listen to them?
There was a time I hung on every piece of lore the designers spoon-fed us, but those days are gone, and this 'new team' has clearly demonstrated that we can easily come up with better stufff, so why even listen to them at all?
True enough. But I enjoy getting new lore and information thru books etc etc
This forum is just one of the many vehicles talented fans can flesh-out all the holes in 4e FR.
So 4e has givien meaning to your "life's work". ;)
Actually, WotC only killed the gods in your FR if you let them.
Your game can be anything you want... why would you listen to them?
There was a time I hung on every piece of lore the designers spoon-fed us, but those days are gone, and this 'new team' has clearly demonstrated that we can easily come up with better stufff, so why even listen to them at all?
QUOTE]
Very True, I guess my Realms will take its own path. More of a parallel universe with several similarities. Though I shouldn't have to edit everything new that gets put out. Its a sad world we live in.
Okay, even if they don't merge, why can't a GOD fix his own frickin' eye?!
-Because, two reasons:
1) Deities are globs of divine energy anyway, and don't have actual forms. The forms they choose to wear are determined by the deity. So, Gruumsh and/or Talos choose to appear that way, to "rile up" their followers. Especially Gruumsh: Corellon and the Elves did this to me...Avenge me and destroy them!
2) Because, perhaps since their "wounds" were inflicted upon them by other deities, they cannot heal the damage, and the missing eyes are how that damage manifests itself.
What I think is interesting is that Auril, Malar, and Umberlee used to reside in Fury's Heart with Talos. One would think that, after he became Gruumsh, they would've stuck around, but nope. Instead they now reside in Silvanus' domain and effectively serve him.
Surprising, in a way (though Silvanus is neutral).
I agree wholeheartedly. Talos absorbing Gruumsh would have been much better IMO. Talos is a) awesome, b) very uniquely "realmsy" in a way Gruumsh cannot be and c) awesome. Gruumsh is just a generic god of "orc smash".
I always did think Talos was, as a god, pretty frightening and sadly underused.
Okay, even if they don't merge, why can't a GOD fix his own frickin' eye?!
This kind of reminds of the age old question "how exactly does Superman shave?"
This kind of reminds of the age old question "how exactly does Superman shave?"
-Like Elves, he can will himself not to grow facial hair.
-Like Elves, he can will himself not to grow facial hair.
Ok, well how does his, ya know, #2s, not break the toilet? huh, smart guy? explain that one
-Talos v. Superman would be a pretty good battle. I hate Superman, but...Why not?
--Talos v. Superman would be a pretty good battle. I hate Superman, but...Why not?
never was much of a Supes guy either. Marvel blows DC out of the water
I always did think Talos was, as a god, pretty frightening and sadly underused.
-That gave me an idea. What if Talos human followers decided to continue following Talos and he eventually re-emerged from Gruumsh. The Spellplague is pretty much over now, so Gruumsh wouldn't be that hard pressed for Divine energy. Heck have the two faiths go to war. Who would win Talos or Gruumsh.
-Side note could use that same idea with Selune and Sehaine! Not the going to war part. :D
18DELTA ;)
Heck have the two faiths go to war. Who would win Talos or Gruumsh.
-The Orcs. Their fanaticism is beyond that of the "average" Talosan.
-The Orcs. Their fanaticism is beyond that of the "average" Talosan.
-It would be fun to watch. :D
18DELTA ;)
Your game can be anything you want... why would you listen to them?
Well, as admin for the Living Forgotten Realms cmapaign, there isn't really much I can ignore.
Instead, I see it as a challenge to make a good game out of it. Some cool stuff still survived.
This kind of reminds of the age old question "how exactly does Superman shave?"
He reflects his heat vision off of any handy reflective surfaces back onto his face, thus shaving.
On the other hand I wish their were less pure good gods as well. I like having most of the gods be unaligned with a few with good or evil alignments, that would help them stand out IMO. Gods throughout history have been morally ambiguous it seems. Asking for virgins wasn't seen as evil to a society, just something the god needed. To an outsider that may seem pretty evil.
Dependign on what focus you place on elements of their portfollio, the nature based deities (Malar, Umberlee, Auril and, in a way, Talos), and some of the deities that dealt with the less sunny side of human nature (Loviatar, Mask) could produce worshippers, and sometimes clerics or even Chosen that turned into (anti) heroes.
I thought that was an interesting element.
This kind of reminds of the age old question "how exactly does Superman shave?"
I figure he probably uses his own fingernails, like in Hancock.
-It would be fun to watch. :D
18DELTA ;)
-Depends who you are.
My problem is that I don't see how a greater deity is an aspect of a slightly more powerful greater deity.
-It's call a Retcon. The rules of reality are being rewritten. What used to exist no longer does. It doesn't have to make sense, in retrospect.
So in other words logic blew it's brains out this time instead of taking a holiday.
-Depends.
How do you mean depends Lord Karsus?
-In that, logic is in the eye of the beholder. To some people, all of these various things make sense. To others, not so much.
-In that, logic is in the eye of the beholder. To some people, all of these various things make sense. To others, not so much.
So to people that don't know how the Realm's have functioned and/or have been ran, it makes perfect sense.
Too everyone who have been up to date with the workings of the Realm's it makes no sense.
Sound feasible?
So to people that don't know how the Realm's have functioned and/or have been ran, it makes perfect sense.
Too everyone who have been up to date with the workings of the Realm's it makes no sense.
Sound feasible?
-Feasible, yeah.
where did you get the information that talos was subsumed to gruumsh?
i decided it was cool to give a cleric of gruumsh some thundering powers, and the story was like "once every hundred years or so, gruumsh blesses on of his clerics with the power of lightning and thunder, so that they may burst the land asunder as he did in ancient times, and create a place for his chosen race to live in."
- i will switch the campaign to a pre-spellplague 4th edition world -
there i plan for that character to find out that in ancient times Gruumsh and Talos were one being, Kozah, that they share a spiritual kinship, and need to be reunited, before a great catastrophe will happen to the world (or in order to make it happen)
He will travel to the ancient homeworld of the grey orcs, with a shard of the Orc Portal hidden somewhere in Thay. There he will find a ritual to summon the avatars of the gods, and after a destructive battle, the gods will unite.
New Kozah/Gruumsh/Talos will emerge, threatening the other gods of Fury with absorption, who promptly flee to Silvanus realm, who takes them in to keep balance.
To many, the newborn ubergod will be known as Gruumsh, because it was an orc's doing to unite these gods. Others will stay with Bhaelros or Talos, or return to the ancient Kozah name.
(Velsharoon will be discarded as ally, turning to Shar and Cyric, and somehow play his part in Mystra's murder :D )
make of it what you like
cop out reasons were given......
so I dont use it.
Sehanine and Selune are different deities
and so are Chauntea and Yondalla.
the only one I can buy into is Silvanus and Rilifane being the same....
you know the chauntea/yondalla thing wouldnt actually bother me if I actually liked Chauntea, which by the way I dont.
Dont like Talos either, nor Gruumsh
In Ancient High Elven (which is nearly the same as low Feyan), the name of the Orc god was derived from the words 'Gru', meaning 'wild', and 'Maas', meaning 'Spirit'.
So "Gru-Maas" would have been the original name for the god, back when the Orcses and Elveses all lived in Faerie, as Seelie and Unseelie children of the Fey.
That was what I always had, and now I've added the following:
In Pozinian (a dead human language dating back about 25,000 years or so), we have the words 'Tal', meaning 'feral', and 'los', meaning 'heart', which means Tal-los was the closest approximation early humans could make for the Elven name 'Wild Spirit', or Gru'maas.
All Homebrew, but it works for me... what can I say? :D
Just because I feel I have to say it in every thread about this; presuming the merger had to happen, I think it would have been way more badass to subsume Gruumsh into Talos. Gruumsh just has no appeal for human worshippers. Talos, however, as the storm god of a barbarian race bent on war and death? Hell yeah. I can just see orcs worshipping the god of lightning and thunder. Humans worshiping Gruumsh is just not something I can picture.
Here's the problem with your statement that Talosians wouldn't worship Gruumsh: they are [bleep]ing crazy.
It's the guy on the far right that you are expecting to make a rational decision. He has devoted his life to the god of storms, earthquakes, destruction, and disasters. He glorifies ruin, and revels in wreakage.
Not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer if you know what I mean.
Basically, my point is that Talosians were generally shown as crazies, and that they aren't necessarily rational people. They'll sign up with Gruumsh in a heartbeat if he promises more of the same Talosian goodness.
what about that Telos guy, don't think it's a coincidence
-Personally, I do. Telos seems much more like Lavos than Talos.