18DELTA (Chosen of Cat, The Cat)
She whispers 'sweet nothings' in the ears of the designers while they sleep at night...
She's just the Bee's Knees! :D
bloody x dark and empty
-Optimum deity personalities, I guess. Hmm, an interesting idea.
Shar, being an entity that promotes hopelessness, should be a deity in decline, simply because she has so much apathy and nihlism built up that she can't muster the drive to do much of anything about her portfolio. For a deity who encourages so much hopelessness, she indulges in far too much hopeful planning for my liking.
Mask should be considerably less cautious, relying on his skill and stealth to see him through, rather than long term plots. One could easily view him as an impatient punk, looking to satisfy that next craving for whatever it is he's got his eyes on, rather than an intricate plotter, since the payoff might not be worth the wait.
Torm could be that way, but he could also be very willful, presuming he isn't blindly obedient, and my be prone to skillfully interpreting orders and requests to have them match his outlook, going by the letter rather than the intent, to advance his own goodly agenda. Hardly straightforward or honest if he does things like that...
My point is that there are a variety of ways one could look at the powers of Faerun with, which can have radically different results for what their optimum personality might be... depends on who's defining things.
Little do they know that this was known to Shar. Who is seen as the mastermind behind the whole affair
(Not true. But I think it sounds better than the real story. Feel free to edit as you see fit)
Helm is gone!?!?!?!?!?!?! My favorite!!!
He's not gone in my Realms.
At least until she springs the suprise that Helm is actually Bane's older brother, and time displaced twin... and that they both fathered a divine child with Cyric's mother, except that due to the oddities of divinity, they're both actually the father of Cyric...
Oh, c'mon, stranger things happen on soap operas, and this is definitely turning into one at this point. :P
lol
Mask should be considerably less cautious, relying on his skill and stealth to see him through, rather than long term plots. One could easily view him as an impatient punk, looking to satisfy that next craving for whatever it is he's got his eyes on, rather than an intricate plotter, since the payoff might not be worth the wait.
We should be far past such assumptions. Any god that turns his own ass into a sword for the sake of subterfuge should not fall under such a stereotype.
At least until she springs the suprise that Helm is actually Bane's older brother, and time displaced twin... and that they both fathered a divine child with Cyric's mother, except that due to the oddities of divinity, they're both actually the father of Cyric...
So, that means that Helm is actually A SUMMERS????
D**N YOU, MR. SINISTER!!!!!!!!!! (or Chris Clairemont...)
You've just about completely missed the point... well done you.
I did?
Sweet Bejebuz in a unitard, which way did it go?
Weird, huh?
So, that means that Helm is actually A SUMMERS????
D**N YOU, MR. SINISTER!!!!!!!!!! (or Chris Clairemont...)
Nice a Classic X-Men reference.... but Helm's back story and fate isn't as bad as Cable's...but hey anything is less convoluted than that....:coolcthul
[QTyr in a fit of rage at what he believed was a plot to get Tymora away from him told Helm to leave his sight and on Helm's departure Tyr slew Helm from behind.
Those don't sound like the actions of a Lawful Good god. Did Tyr change alignment because of that act?
All we know if he died defending mortals from a demon invasion. Still sounds Lawful Good to me.
Yeah, but killing someone over saying "I'm your son" sounds kind of evil, and even chaotic. He assumes it was to ruin his relationship with Tymora.
Yeah, but killing someone over saying "I'm your son" sounds kind of evil, and even chaotic. He assumes it was to ruin his relationship with Tymora.
Need to read through his post. His was a dramatization of events and not factual.
I don't know much apart from the fact that Helm died but I don't know when/how/why/etc. In that regard, where is Mask?
He got an advanced copy of Grand History of the Realms that Ao asked him to guard. For once, his curiosity got the better of him (and Ao for some reason didn't tell him NOT to read it, only not let any other being take it or look inside it) and after reading the drivel inside offed himself premptively to save Tyr and himself the embarasment of being tied up in some foolish, unsavory and out of character thing as a duel over a woman neither really wanted.
D*mn you to Bejebuz! D*mn you!!
Lie!!!
D*mn you to Bejebuz! D*mn you!!
Ah, but Judge, the most insidious lie is the one that is almost true. The next best is the one that is repeated often enough that people forget what is true in all the noise.
Ah, but Judge, the most insidious lie is the one that is almost true. The next best is the one that is repeated often enough that people forget what is true in all the noise.
I sentence you to shame.
Be ashamed. Be very ashamed.
I sentence you to shame.
Be ashamed. Be very ashamed.
:embarrass
:P
See, this is what I missed staying off the boards for those foolish wastes of time we call "work" and "school." Ah, I should have known better and stuck around here to get my Masters in Realmslore! :DWelcome back!!
Lets fiesta!!!
Hey, bud--I just returned myself after a 2-3 month absence. Perhaps if you had stuck around for me to scold I would have stuck around myself.
Welcome back!!
Lets fiesta!!!
Wooot!
Wooot!
In case you missed it. That was a threadjack! HAH!
In case you missed it. That was a threadjack! HAH!
Right.
Helm is dead.
And sucked to begin with.
Those don't sound like the actions of a Lawful Good god. Did Tyr change alignment because of that act?
Love blinds all actions.
Love blinds all actions.
It's still a choice, he had free will to do it or not to do it. No one forced his hand. And it's antithetical to his portfolio. He is the god of justice, what is right and he commits a truly atrocious act, which is against Ao's rules, not only is it evil, but it's not upholding his portfolio.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
It's still a choice, he had free will to do it or not to do it. No one forced his hand. And it's antithetical to his portfolio. He is the god of justice, what is right and he commits a truly atrocious act, which is against Ao's rules, not only is it evil, but it's not upholding his portfolio.
Hey just so you know my post about Helm finding out about Tyr being his father was completely false. I just thought it would have been a better reason than what actually happened.
I mean Tyr killing Helm over Tymora come on.Gods are supposed to be above mortal concerns.
I mean Tyr killing Helm over Tymora come on.Gods are supposed to be above mortal concerns.
Most mortal concerns sure, but not the very petty ones apparently.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
Don't tell me you couldn't come up with a better story thanthat? I just added a little color and believabilty.
Spellplague.
Spellplague.
This happened because of Spellplague? Did it affect who the gods were? If it did then I do apologize for my ignorance. I assumed it was just Helm having issues with Tyr dating Tymora and Tyr was offended.
But I'm watching you! Behave yourself!
At any rate, I think we are straying a bit now. Myself included.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
I think his name implies that he never behaves.
At any rate, I think we are straying a bit now. Myself included.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
It's completely on topic, you goonie! Everyone knows that Helm had a Drizztmanchild and Tyr murdered him out of pity. It was the most lawful, kind thing to do.
You ever had a Drizztmanchild runnin' around? Huh? Huh? It's catastrophic!
Especially at night, when it's dark and you don't have the lights on.
It's completely on topic, you goonie! Everyone knows that Helm had a Drizztmanchild and Tyr murdered him out of pity. It was the most lawful, kind thing to do.
You ever had a Drizztmanchild runnin' around? Huh? Huh? It's catastrophic!
Especially at night, when it's dark and you don't have the lights on.
Ahhhh, JudgeDookie. Inserting madness, choas and humor into Realmslore since 1374 DR.
Ahhhh, JudgeDookie. Inserting madness, choas and humor into Realmslore since 1374 DR.
1368, you buttcake!!!
Can we get back onto the subject of the Drizztmanchild, you tard!? It's of extreme importance!
1368, you buttcake!!!
Can we get back onto the subject of the Drizztmanchild, you tard!? It's of extreme importance!
:whatsthis Oh, yeah, checking my records, the Judge is right. *ahem, We, uhhh, return you to your regular program.
Thank you, RanielK. Jeez, that guy always does the tough stuff, doesn't he?
---
Next up, we have the Drizztmanchhild---who some say is a lesbian.
My say?! He's not a lesbian, he's just a Drizztmanchild.
Drizztmanchild, what's your say:
Hey hey hey. Let's not attack a guy when he's not around to work his twirling +5 sparklers in a blur to confuse and disorient you while he steals your smokeweed and makes you deal with the reality of the 4e realms sober.
There you have it! Drizztmanchild is a lesbian--confirmed right out of his own mouth!!
Thank you, RanielK. Jeez, that guy always does the tough stuff, doesn't he?
---
Next up, we have the Drizztmanchhild---who some say is a lesbian.
My say?! He's not a lesbian, he's just a Drizzmanchild.
Drizztmanchild, what's your say:
There you have it! Drizztmanchild is a lesbian--confirmed right out of his own mouth!!
Yep, don't you all wish to be so lucky.
Yep, don't you all wish to be so lucky.
Yes, there can be only one. There probably should be only one, but that is a topic for another thread.
By-the-bye, are we even vaguely on topic?
Have we lost the topic? Can it be found with a map or should we just Mapquest this one?
By-the-bye, are we even vaguely on topic?
As soon as people started believing Drizztmanchild-thing-guy-dude's silly interpretation of Helm's death, then things were already gone.
Besides, Helm's death has been covered before. Nobody is missing anything. MapQuest will do not.
As for Helm, he's dead--just like a bunch of other god's most of us loved. We either need to move on or create conspiracies to bring him back.
It's like Elvis.
Anyway, with all the gods that died or disappeared, who really gives two sh*t's about Helm?
I mean, he pretty much sucked to begin with.
My god man who throws a shoe?
He should have been "guarding" agaisnt Tyrs killing blow. Guarding......get it?
My god man who throws a shoe?
I'll throw a half-eaten steak at your a$$. Does that help?
I'll throw a half-eaten steak at your a$$. Does that help?
As long as its filet wrapped in bacon. Then I'll at least know you cared.
My point remains: Who the hell really cares that much about Helm? To me he was one of the most boring deities. He was a drone as far as I saw it.
Torm really should have had his portfolio all along. And even Torm isn't all that interesting--just serves a needed portfolio.
My point remains: Who the hell really cares that much about Helm? To me he was one of the most boring deities. He was a drone as far as I saw it.
Torm really should have had his portfolio all along. And even Torm isn't all that interesting--just serves a needed portfolio.
-Agreed on both points, with the exception that I find Torm interesting.
-Agreed on both points, with the exception that I find Torm interesting.
Eh. Torm would have been cool if he had been brought to prominence after he slain Bane. Yeah, his church boomed, but he wasn't examined, expanded and explored like Cyric/Mystra/Kelvemore were. He sort of got lost and forgotten.
And in reference to you, LK, I think Tyr would have made a better god than Torm in the new 4e.
No.
And in reference to you, LK, I think Tyr would have made a better god than Torm in the new 4e.
I thought Tyr was in 4e. Isn't he Bhaelros? As Lathander is Aumanator?
Imagine a worshipper of Torm, as part of the Duty of Penance in his or her order, attempting to reclaim an ancient artifact of Mystran worship. Duty to dead deities is still duty, and there are many things of the dead deities which would be very dangerous in... say... the hands of the Netherese. :evillaugh
I thought Tyr was in 4e. Isn't he Bhaelros? As Lathander is Aumanator?
Unless something has been released that I am not aware of--and possibly--no. Tyr is straight up dead.
One would hope, although it seems unlikely in this new age of 4E, that Torm and his worshippers are kept busy with their Duty of Penance. It seemed appropriate following the Time of Troubles, and something interesting that could be still used as a plot hook for adventures.
Imagine a worshipper of Torm, as part of the Duty of Penance in his or her order, attempting to reclaim an ancient artifact of Mystran worship. Duty to dead deities is still duty, and there are many things of the dead deities which would be very dangerous in... say... the hands of the Netherese. :evillaugh
Ok. When Helm was killed did Tyr assume his sphere over the guardians? I'm still not sure as to what is "canon" as far as that goes. I read the Novel Prince of Lies and Crucible which alludes to that being the case. And based on some the examples I've seen here that seems to be the way it should have been(Kinda reminds me of Highlander).
Tyr probably would--should--have received it at the time. As things went, it was his right to claim it unless he chose to give it to someone else.
If you want to get depth into story, I don't see him taking up such a thing easily, due to the circumstances.
Rather than create a useless thread I'll ask here
What happened to Tyr?
If the answer is somewhere just point me to the thread.
What happened to Tyr?
If the answer is somewhere just point me to the thread.
To clarify Stig's post, Tyr died on Toril defending mortals from hordes of demons. But, since a god can't "die" unless they are destroyed on their own plane, this explanation doesn't make much sense.
The why's and how's of such a thing need to be fleshed out properly.
And in reference to you, LK, I think Tyr would have made a better god than Torm in the new 4e.
-Nah, I don't think so. I've always viewed Helm and Tyr as too similar, with Torm being (of the three) the most unique and different.
-Nah, I don't think so. I've always viewed Helm and Tyr as too similar, with Torm being (of the three) the most unique and different.
Probably only because he was given more of a plot line in novels and had his character a bit more developed.
-Come on. Let's get back on track here, with Helm.
Who?
Oh, yeah, the Watchful Guardian who got stabbed in the back . . . in a most deceitful manner . . . by the god of justice . . . over a girl.
Who?
Oh, yeah, the Watchful Guardian who got stabbed in the back . . . in a most deceitful manner . . . by the god of justice . . . over a girl.
-Love makes people do crazy things?
What happened to Tyr?
I killed him, cooked him, and ate him. He tasted like cardboard.
He tasted like cardboard.
-Like his personality?
however
Cyric is the god of lies, he could of had a Tyr suite, or Sune assumed that Tyr would of delt with Tymora in person instead of sending an envoy
Can we please get back on topic now?
Where the hell is that LK dipshit when he's supposed to be on duty?
I love everyone, you a$$hole!!
LOVE!
Stigger actually has the capacity!!! Everybody round up so we can curb stomp some kitties and love one and other. Lets be Neighbors. :D
Killing kitties.
Though I'll not object to curb-stomping kittens the way Helm got curb-stomped by Tyr, just on principle. :evillaugh
Go feed yourself to a tigershark ;)
I mean, it was great in the Avatar and Shadow of the Avatar series because it was new, exciting. But humanizing the gods of the realms by allowing them to be subjected to basic human emotions is lame.
However, this is not gonna stop me from reading the books
I was just curious if others feel the same way.\But, since a god can't "die" unless they are destroyed on their own plane, this explanation doesn't make much sense.
That's how it was in 1st edition. In 2nd gods don't come to the prime in their true forms (though the moons of Krynn are supposed to be the gods themselves) it is either impossible (in Legends and Lore) or such a great offense (in Monster Mythology) that the offender will be struck down immediately by his peers.
Agreed. A gap of 6 divine ranks is pretty decisive. Helm was pretty foolish in accepting a challenge then, but he had slain a god (powered down Mystra) before.
-He didn't really have a choice. He couldn't not accept.
Ok here's what I don't understand. Was it a duel to the death? If so that doesn't seem justifiable to me. Why kill someone/god who you know is vastly inferior to you and was easily beaten down? The duel should have ended once Tyr had him beat. But to take a life after he's helpless... Where's the justice?(no pun intended). But I guess it's something Tyr didn't have to live with for long did he? Though I wonder how different his battle with the demons would have gone if he had his best friend "guarding his back"
Word of advice: Don't try to make sense of it, It's only gonna make your head hurt
Ok here's what I don't understand. Was it a duel to the death? If so that doesn't seem justifiable to me. Why kill someone/god who you know is vastly inferior to you and was easily beaten down? The duel should have ended once Tyr had him beat. But to take a life after he's helpless... Where's the justice?(no pun intended). But I guess it's something Tyr didn't have to live with for long did he? Though I wonder how different his battle with the demons would have gone if he had his best friend "guarding his back"
-All of this, we don't have answers to. All we have are those one or two sentences at the end of AGHotR.
Supposedly, it was an accidental killing during the duel... though how a greater deity does anything they're personally involved in accidentally is indeed a headache inducing quandry.
Tyr wields a vorpal sword, Helm does not...
Perhaps he rolled a 20 for his crit because he was standing closer to our Lady Luck.
Lady luck is a fickle *****...
Thinking back on Tyr, I definately find it hard to go with this nonsence and I am starting to feel sorry for him. His presence in the realms was in a strange way comforting, he felt like the big daddy god who's judgement was infallible... what a way to go crush that view.
But I found this is even more widespread in the philosophy on lawful good WotC now promotes, i.e. lawful good that is wrong but thinks it is right. That is a truly scary opponent. A devoutly wrong paladin who comes smiting first, and only ask questions later.
Originally Posted by Drizztsmanchild View Post
Ok here's what I don't understand. Was it a duel to the death? If so that doesn't seem justifiable to me. Why kill someone/god who you know is vastly inferior to you and was easily beaten down? The duel should have ended once Tyr had him beat. But to take a life after he's helpless... Where's the justice?(no pun intended). But I guess it's something Tyr didn't have to live with for long did he? Though I wonder how different his battle with the demons would have gone if he had his best friend "guarding his back"
Such are the whims of writers...plot device ftw or ftl depending on your perspective...
The Empyrean Odyssey trilogy is pretty good, so far, as was The Lady Penitent trilogy. I like the character and story development. What I dislike is this increasing use of god killing as plot device. Anyone else think this is getting old?
You have to remember that this was written in 3e when they were planning the deaths of all the gods.
Supposedly, it was an accidental killing during the duel...
Where’s the accident thing stated?
Let me guess this was plotted by Shar as well right?
Plotted by the publisher that plotted the designers that plotted the author that would plot Shar plotting crap.
Plotted by the publisher that plotted the designers that plotted the author that would plot Shar plotting crap.
WotC
Wizards
Of
The
Crappy plots.
Kidding. Don't banish me
Another question on the topic. Who took Helms spot once he was killed? Any details?
As to who took his portfolio, not sure, but I'd suspect some of it went to Torm. Or maybe it was ignored in 4e. Don't know for sure either way.
but, noting that Torm the True would of gotten most of Helm's Followers, which would of been the LN(unaligned) and the LG ones.
the LE ones would of gone to Bane or Hoar
although Amuanator,Bahamut, Siamorphe, waukeen, the Red Knight would also be good choices.
mostly it would be Torm, and a toss up with the others.
Helm back in 3.x and 2nd was LN, in 4.x he would have been unaligned.
-Hmm...That presents a good question. What alignment would he be? From what I understand, "Unaligned" isn't exactly "Neutral". "Neutral" is looking to keep a balance between 'Good' and 'Evil', 'Law' and 'Chaos', whereas "Unaligned" is simply not caring.
-I mean, I know the goal by WotC was to make 'Unaligned' the catch-all alignment, but being unaligned doesn't really mean that you enforce and follow a very strict balance, though.
-I mean, I know the goal by WotC was to make 'Unaligned' the catch-all alignment, but being unaligned doesn't really mean that you enforce and follow a very strict balance, though.
Well, that kind of is going into a discussion about whether or not "unaligned" was a good word for WotC to use. It might not have been (I honestly don't have an opinion on the matter), but my point was that "unaligned" as far as 4E D&D is concerned can indeed refer to someone who is actively trying to maintain a balance. If you aren't good or evil by the standards of the new alignment system (and as said before, those standards are more demanding than, say, being a "decent person"), you are unaligned, and the vast majority of people would fall into that category.
You have to remember that this was written in 3e when they were planning the deaths of all the gods.
Good point...
I'm fairly certain it's implied that Helm's portfolio is subsumed by Torm in The Fractured Sky (Empyrean Odyssey trilogy, book 2). I don't remember the chapter, though it is in the latter half of the book, but it's implied during the conversation Micus is having with the diviner diva of Helms (forget her name but she assisted with Tauran's quest) at her court appearance in front of the council of Torm. The council explicitly states something to the effect about housing Helms followers and they are now subject to his law/rule, etc.
Can't say I care much for the new system. Would have been better to just chuck the entire concept of alignment altogether than give us this one. And that's said as someone who is firmly behind the old alignment system...
As I've said before, I agree.
Or, just have good, evil, and unaligned (I think it's weird how LG and CE were kept, but not CG and LE).As I've said before, I agree.
Yep. Either keep the old alignment system or cut it down to Good/Unaligned/Evil. This half-in/half-out stuff is silly. The current alignment system would've been fine, too, had CG and LE remained, with N, CN, and LN all being subsumed into Unaligned.
Vile, Evil, Neutral, Unaligned, Good, Exalted
Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic
(With Neutral being actively trying to to keep a balance, and Unaligned being no particular "preference" or "pattern")
I thought Tyr was in 4e. Isn't he Bhaelros? As Lathander is Aumanator?
Tyr was always Tyr, while Bhaelros was simply a Calimshan alias for Talos. Lathander was always Lathander, while Amaunator was always Amaunator until the realm who worshipped him most, i.e. Netheril, collapsed during Karsus' Folly. He was nearly dead till the eve of the Shadowstorm when some heretics of Lathander revived his cult. Whether Lathander was replaced by Amaunator in 4E is up to the 4E folk to reveal.
As for Tyr and Helm, their struggle is touched upon in The Fractured Sky, a book which also tells the tale how a Cyricist and a Sharran get into Dweomerheart and ... well, actually some stuff in that book is quite weird (if not to say absurd) and the author lost me near the end.
As for Mask, his fate is told in Shadowrealm were it is revealed that ...
Show
... he is the "son" of Shar, as well as her herald. Near the end of that novel she absorbs him back, but part of his essence has already been distributed to Erevis, Riven and Rivalen. So there is a secret the lady of secrets does not know, one that gives hope to the Maskarrans of this world.
As I've said before, I agree.
LG and CE were kept because they were the extremes. That's my opinion. Unaligned is a good idea, many characters are hard to define in old system (Jarlaxle for example).
But I'm not much into 4e. Too much overthrown upside down, if you know what I mean. Mask, for one.
Dumb.
Had they changed it properly, I believe it should have included: LG, CG, N, LE, CE.
I'm with LK on the fact that neutral is meant to keep the balance. In order to do so, one must do away with lawful and chaotic tenancies and simply due what is must.
What about those who do good or evil without regards to law or chaos?
Neutral.
Or those who uphold the law without concern for morality?
Neutral and/or Evil.
Or anarchists of moral ambivalency?
Chaotic.
The old alignment system was definitely a better system in my mind, at least in terms of expressing a wider variety of behaviors... which is why I say it would have been better to just chuck it entirely.
I’m not against the old system—thought it had some merit. On the other hand, the Neutral Good/Evil thing sort of dilutes things to me. If someone is Neutral, then that’s what they are—regardless of where their tendencies lean.
I think.
See, I'd view the idea that neutral must uphold a sense of balance as far too constricting a view.
My view is opposite. If you are neutral, you aren't upholding anything. That would make you lawful.
Being neutral is just knowing that "it is what it is." and it's simply the way of the world. Why'd the ogre bite the baby's head off? Just meant to be. Why'd the knight slay the evil dragon? Just meant to be.
Being neutral means the person realizes that there is a balance. Doesn't necessarily mean that they are the ones in control of it.
My point remains: Who the hell really cares that much about Helm? To me he was one of the most boring deities. He was a drone as far as I saw it.
Torm really should have had his portfolio all along. And even Torm isn't all that interesting--just serves a needed portfolio.
-Agreed on both points, with the exception that I find Torm interesting.
I humbly must state a contrary opinion. Ever since reading the Avatar series I've found Helm to be a sort of tragic figure who never quite gets the respect he deserves. The description of him looking at his image in the mirror of truth was one of the most evocative scenes I've read in a novel, D&D or otherwise. As noted in the same series, the gods can't help but see the universe in terms of their portfolios and act according to their nature, but out of all of them
Helm is the one on the proverbial short end at the end of the Time of Troubles as his fellow deities begrudge him for following his duty and his followers have been busy going manifest destiny on Maztica. Yet he never gives up and performs to be the exemplar of what he is - the Guardian. Simple, perhaps, but in a world of overblown plots, celestial crusaders from other dimensions (such as Tyr), deicides, sociopathic (Cyric) and cynophobic (Mask) deities, portfolios of such breadth and width, it was comforting to know that their was the equivalent of a stoic rock of dependability.
I mean, it was great in the Avatar and Shadow of the Avatar series because it was new, exciting. But humanizing the gods of the realms by allowing them to be subjected to basic human emotions is lame.
This has been a topic of conversation for me and some friends for quite a while - do the actions the deities take between each other come about due to emotion or some twisted comprehension of the interaction between portfolios (such as Helm and Murdane - stability/protection paired with reason and pragmatism- or how any of the patriarch & matriarch pairings have complimentary and augmentive portfolios or common on again off again dalliances between deities of skill/cleverness and luck and their waning and waxing power - skill is good, luck is good, but together...)? During that series, we see both sides of the coin: Mystra acts through more mortal emotions while others, such as Talos, act as dictated by their divine demesne. I agree that the whole courtship thing between Tyr and Tymora makes little sense but it may just have been poor choice of wording to describe their relationship; specifically as the actual disagreement came about from the issue of who should take Ilmater's place in the Triad, the deity of Nobility or the deity of Good Luck. Considering the history involving Helm (his consort was killed) and Tyche (who had been slowly decaying and was ----- crazy during the whole thing while helping Lathander) during the Dawn Cataclysm is it any wonder Helm would object to allowing Tymora (remember, everyone gets good luck, not just good people) being a permanent fixture in the Mounting Heavens? The whole Cyric conspiracy theory makes a certain amount of sense if you think in terms of it as him increasing Tyr's irrational desire to have Tymora in the Triad to the point where he becomes paranoid and questions Helm's motives to absurdity.
-Hmm...That presents a good question. What alignment would he be? From what I understand, "Unaligned" isn't exactly "Neutral". "Neutral" is looking to keep a balance between 'Good' and 'Evil', 'Law' and 'Chaos', whereas "Unaligned" is simply not caring.
Helm was the Guardian and would technically be unaligned as in neither good nor evil but simply the patron deity of people who guard stuff despite where that may fall in the spectrum of order and chaos. Lawful neutral does represent that to an extent - neither caring for good nor evil but in obeying a set of laws, such as giving your word that you'll protect something. However, because this is the Realms, and any deity whose portfolio is a metaphysical concept not directly associated with evil or destroying the world some how ends up being good-ish (except Kelemvor and Gond
) he ended up as guarding of Celestia and the majority of his clerics were portrayed as good aligned, including those misguided twits who decided to go Columbus on Maztica.To clarify Stig's post, Tyr died on Toril defending mortals from hordes of demons. But, since a god can't "die" unless they are destroyed on their own plane, this explanation doesn't make much sense.
Actually, IIRC, he died fending off a demonic incursion of Celestia (99% certain) as the Abyss passed through on its way to the Inner Planes (less certain). Permadeath would be possible in that situation. Plus factor in the slaying of Helm as an unjust act and one could make the argument that his grip of his portfolio would have been significantly weakened.
Among his points the one where Helm and Tyr weren't actually duelling for the sake of Tymorra's love alone but for the new structure in Toril's Celestial Heavens aswell, to see who would take Ilmaters place, as Ilmater had seen enough of follies within the Triad during the Tymorran debacle.
Anyway, I think the dieties who used to be lawful good where living too harmoniously in the past, and the little annoyances they percieved in eachother have been emplified during the breakdown of the Triad to the point of Helm and Tyr getting physical.
Still think the idea to show lawful good as not working well together and even being enemies amongst eachother has its merits. Makes the whole alignment spiel have more shades of grey, which the realms have been known for.
I humbly must state a contrary opinion....
Dammit!! Why must everyone have one!!
Fine! Fine! Fine! Love the guy. I care not.
I agree that the whole courtship thing between Tyr and Tymora makes little sense but it may just have been poor choice of wording to describe their relationship; specifically as the actual disagreement came about from the issue of who should take Ilmater's place in the Triad, the deity of Nobility or the deity of Good Luck.
If you read the wording in AGHotR, then it wasn't a poor choice and was written to mean exactly what it says.
Yes, my man. Gods can love, too.
Rejoice.
I agree that the whole courtship thing between Tyr and Tymora makes little sense but it may just have been poor choice of wording to describe their relationship; specifically as the actual disagreement came about from the issue of who should take Ilmater's place in the Triad, the deity of Nobility or the deity of Good Luck. Considering the history involving Helm (his consort was killed) and Tyche (who had been slowly decaying and was ----- crazy during the whole thing while helping Lathander) during the Dawn Cataclysm is it any wonder Helm would object to allowing Tymora (remember, everyone gets good luck, not just good people) being a permanent fixture in the Mounting Heavens? The whole Cyric conspiracy theory makes a certain amount of sense if you think in terms of it as him increasing Tyr's irrational desire to have Tymora in the Triad to the point where he becomes paranoid and questions Helm's motives to absurdity.
A couple things:
1) Siamorphe left the House of the Triad over a disagreement with Tyr, joining Sune's court.
2) Tyr protested this to Sune, who came up with the idea of marrying off Tymora to Tyr.
3) Tymora was to join the House of the Triad, not become part of "The" Triad. There's a difference, there, as both Helm and Siamorphe lived in the House of the Triad, but weren't part of The Triad (which would make it a pentagon, not a Triad).
4) There's no indication at all that Helm had any problem with having Tymora in the House of the Triad.
5) Ilmater left after Helm died, in protest over that.
Actually, IIRC, he died fending off a demonic incursion of Celestia (99% certain) as the Abyss passed through on its way to the Inner Planes (less certain). Permadeath would be possible in that situation.
It could go either way. It says he "perished decades ago when defending the upper realms against an overwhelming demonic incursion". When they say "upper realms" they COULD mean Celestia. They could also mean "upper Forgotten Realms", I.E. northern Faerun. If we're talking the Vaasa region, then that also fits, as that area is A) In the northern parts of Faerun, the "upper realms", B) Has a long history of demonic incursions, and C) Is tied into Tyr's history due to the Triadic Crusade. The likelihood may be in favor of Celestia, but I'd say the odds are closer to 50/50 rather than 99-1. Whatever the case, it certainly isn't a fact that the battle occured on Celestia, unless I'm missing a recently released update to the story.
It could go either way. It says he "perished decades ago when defending the upper realms against an overwhelming demonic incursion". When they say "upper realms" they COULD mean Celestia. They could also mean "upper Forgotten Realms", I.E. northern Faerun. If we're talking the Vaasa region, then that also fits, as that area is A) In the northern parts of Faerun, the "upper realms", B) Has a long history of demonic incursions, and C) Is tied into Tyr's history due to the Triadic Crusade. The likelihood may be in favor of Celestia, but I'd say the odds are closer to 50/50 rather than 99-1. Whatever the case, it certainly isn't a fact that the battle occured on Celestia, unless I'm missing a recently released update to the story.
My favor tends to lean towards your explanation. It's discussed 99% more than his 1%. While I feel AxleLeft has some merit in his explanation, I think it is made more to provide reason for change, rather than why the change actually happened.
Hopeless cause, Axle, my man.
Hopeless cause, Axle, my man.
"No cause is hopeless while there is one fool left to pursue it";)
While I feel AxleLeft has some merit in his explanation, I think it is made more to provide reason for change, rather than why the change actually happened.
Pretty much on target as I'm not completely up to snuff on "current events" as most of my knowledge of the matter comes from the Empryean Odyssey books - which apparently differ from GreenKnight's sources in terms of chronology. Considering we're talking about the planar and deity mechanics I feel the why usually ends up setting the how in motion. This is a completely subjective area though and I'm sure many see it differently.
It could go either way. It says he "perished decades ago when defending the upper realms against an overwhelming demonic incursion". When they say "upper realms" they COULD mean Celestia. They could also mean "upper Forgotten Realms", I.E. northern Faerun. If we're talking the Vaasa region, then that also fits, as that area is A) In the northern parts of Faerun, the "upper realms", B) Has a long history of demonic incursions, and C) Is tied into Tyr's history due to the Triadic Crusade.
Technically perhaps; though the fact that the campaign book and PG sections on individual areas lack any mention of being the battleground between a deity and a horde of evil outsiders (a rather monumental event for an area) would seem to support the idea that upper realms refers to the upper portion of the world tree plane design.
Hopeless cause, Axle, my man.
"No cause is hopeless while there is one fool left to pursue it"
We prefer to be called integli-integl-intell- smart-challenged :P
What I'm wondering, is Helm's corpse somewhere in the Astral Sea or is that just for forgotten gods? Why does Tyr get a memorial but not Helm?
Technically perhaps; though the fact that the campaign book and PG sections on individual areas lack any mention of being the battleground between a deity and a horde of evil outsiders (a rather monumental event for an area) would seem to support the idea that upper realms refers to the upper portion of the world tree plane design.
You say that as if the book were comprehensive in its presentation of lore. :P
Pretty much on target as I'm not completely up to snuff on "current events" as most of my knowledge of the matter comes from the Empryean Odyssey books - which apparently differ from GreenKnight's sources in terms of chronology. Considering we're talking about the planar and deity mechanics I feel the why usually ends up setting the how in motion. This is a completely subjective area though and I'm sure many see it differently.
For future reference, I would take GreenKnight's breakdown with some merit. He's very well versed in hunting such things down.
Technically perhaps; though the fact that the campaign book and PG sections on individual areas lack any mention of being the battleground between a deity and a horde of evil outsiders (a rather monumental event for an area) would seem to support the idea that upper realms refers to the upper portion of the world tree plane design.
They lack mention of the majority of the big shake ups--have we not noticed that?
Tyr's demise and the lack of detail for it fall short of many other changes in some respects.
We prefer to be called integli-integl-intell- smart-challenged :P
Drizztmanthing, since you started it, I charge you with givin' this guy the ejumukayshun tools to spell properly.
What I'm wondering, is Helm's corpse somewhere in the Astral Sea or is that just for forgotten gods? Why does Tyr get a memorial but not Helm?
Helm should be completely toast due to the circumstances of his death.
And Stig is correct concerning the reason for the memorial. ;)