I'm looking for at least one or two that were subsumed so I can play a Deva Invoker of a Mulhorand god. Otherwise I'll probably make him a bard.
FRCG doesn't say but they probably died from the lack of worship, Anubis takes care of them in the Astral Sea, guards their husks, or they are barely existing, like Auppenser did
The Imaskari seem to have banned all worship of them to make sure (just to rub it in).
Oh, and the FRCG retconned Mulan tieflings so that they aren't descended from the gods, they're just like regular 4e tieflings. I guess the same goes for the aasimar/devas and genasi.
Personally, I say they all went to Abeir.
-It's the only thing that logically makes sense. Their people (the Mulhorandi) went to "Abeir", and as such, they followed their people, just like they did the first time, when they were taken from pseudoEarth to Abeir-Toril.. Of course, the Mulhorandi Pantheon disappearing completely from Toril doesn't isn't exactly wholly logical, but, that aside...
Returned Imaskar didn't 'appear' and replace them - they moved into the area that was devasted.
A completely different scenario then what happened to Maztica and other regions.
Or, if you want to Meta-game, the designers finally realized that we were right all these years, and TSR's Mulhorand was too derivitive, so they went back to something somewhat closer to Ed's original (remember 'Southern Magic'?)
Edit: I just looked it up - it says the Mulhorand region was "wiped clean", which is completely different from areas where Abeirran lands took the place of Torillian ones.
The Mulhorandi gods (and perhaps as many Mulhorandi survivors as they could carry - my idea, not canon) probably sailed back through Spelljamming space, or the Astral (?) plane they came through in 3e lore. They probably returned to either pseudoEarth or their homes in the Planescape versions of the Egyptian pantheon, and reunited with their originals.*
* Just adding a happy ending to the situation.
Probably tons of fun (ruined) stuff laying around, and you could even go the Planet of the Apes route - statues arms sticking out of the sand, a forbidden zone, and ugly, mutated (Mulan) humans living below ground (Plaguescarred, rather then irradiated, but its all the same at the end of the day).
In fact... they could be literally 'falling apart' from the Spellplague (like leprosy), and need to keep their entire bodies bandaged-up to keep from 'oozing away'.
Think Tuskan Raider meets the Mummy. :D
Thousands of years of civilization and warfare... for what?
It all seems so pointless now.
I would have loved to see a new Mulhorand that went a differnt route then 'Torillian Egypt', and they had a hundred friggin' years to do just that.
Instead, someone said "this is boring, lets just replace it with another fallen empire like we always do..."
Could have called it the 'Conflict Kingdoms' or some-such, with burning towns, troops (including monsters) marching all over the place, battlefields full of festering dead (including some that haven't decided to lie still yet), mass graves, occupied cities and all the other things that go with the horrors of un-ending war (like starvation, ****, forced conscription - sometimes children, orphans, disease, poverty, etc, etc...).
We could have had a great "hell on Earth" region, and instead we got the "Return of the Archwizards: Part 2".
What is up with New Imaskar anyway? How did they make something as menacingly awesome as a taboo fallen failed empire of deity-defying super-wizards seem so ... pedestrian.
The Netherease came back,
The Imaskari came back,
The Miyeritari came back.
The Elves came back,
The Demonbinders of Narfell came back,
The Lolth-only Drow came back,
Calim and Memnon (Calimshan) came back,
Abeir came back.....
Too bad all the customers up and left. :P
The Netherease came back,
The Imaskari came back,
The Meyeritari came back.
The Elves came back,
The Demonbinders of Narfell came back,
The Lolth-only Drow came back,
Calim and Memnon (Calimshan) came back,
Abeir came back.....
Too bad all the customers up and left. :P
OUCH!
Given the 4th edition's penchant for dark depressing shadowy evilness, then Mulhorand would have been well-served by evolving into a grand theocratic empire ruled by Settites and slavers. (Ed's own Mulhorand had bald priestesses of Set after all.) It was already going that way in past lore, with the heavy slavery, the imperialistic expansion and conquering Unther. The Ancient Egypt-theme is no great problem - pyramids and mummies are a classic fantasy staple, and the designers more or less merged Set with Sseth anyway.
If these ancient fallen empires have to keep coming back, then I wish at least one could have gone the Melnibone-route: an isolated city filled with the corrupt, depraved, decrepit remnants of the empire, thick with history and power, but the people indolent and soft. Stagnant. Still a dangerous place to go and a force to be reckoned with, but not such a problem to deal with. That should have been Deep Imaskar, and the City of Shade.
Sembia too, they were corrupt and had a real mixed bag of nice and not so nice. Now they're under the thumb of Shade, and we know how monochromatic they are on the evil scale.
@Markustay's list of resurrected lost empires: Double Ouch.
The Ancient Egypt-theme is no great problem - pyramids and mummies are a classic fantasy staple, and the designers more or less merged Set with Sseth anyway.
In fourth edition, they both became Zehir, though, right? I'm still not sure how that worked. Set imprisoned Sseth (who is an avatar of sleeping Merrshaulk) and impersonated him, but then Zehir appears out of nowhere and... what, imprisons them both? Drives Set away and takes over the job of keeping Sseth imprisoned?
And, personally, I'd much rather move Mulhorand and Unther to Abeir than destroy them utterly.
In fourth edition, they both became Zehir, though, right? I'm still not sure how that worked. Set imprisoned Sseth (who is an avatar of sleeping Merrshaulk) and impersonated him, but then Zehir appears out of nowhere and... what, imprisons them both? Drives Set away and takes over the job of keeping Sseth imprisoned?
From what I understand of the Abeir palette swap, the lands of Mulhurand are GONE, not destroyed. As in the people, their buildings, lands, and ruines are completely displaced to Abeir and the dragonborn put back in their place. If this is true, there is no more Mulhurand anywhere, and all of the artifacts, ruins, lore, etc are now just gone. Not empty or misplaced, GONE.
What I gathered with Zehir (although I haven't read the 4e PHB and probably won't ever), he is another interloper god (somehow different from the other interloper gods that wotc hates) this is going to kill / absorb / retcon away Set and Sseth. No problems keeping them alive / unharmed / sleeping as they are now just avatards or godly sock puppets or something.
So much for removing all real-world elements, when the Temple of Horus-Re is still sitting there...
Mulhorand got the 'Halruaa treatment' - all those "ancient (southern) magics" went BOOM! The people were mostly wiped-out (think Forbidden-zone badlands type-gone), but a few settlements and pockets of people survived amongst the ruins... only to be enslaved ALL OVER AGAIN by the same people that did it thousands of years before.
Talk about crap luck.
On the other hand, I really like BadCatMan's take - it seems Imaskar is a lot more 'light-hearted' the Mulhorand was. they should have played-up Mulhorand's decline into decadence.
Ra could have become the god of guttering torches, Baast (Sharess) could have been in perpetual 'Heat', Thoth could have made a play as the new god of magic... only to be destoyed (or enslaved) by Shar, Sebek could have become the new 'risen god' of Lizardmen and Khaasta (along with the Werecrocodiles) Faerûn-wide, Anubis could have killed Kelemvor and took is stuff, Bes could have killed both Tymora and Beshaba and taken their portfolios (becoming a new Tyche), and Set could have become....... SET.
Screw Zehir... he was just a mistake because no-one bothered to tell the vid-game people NOT to use him when they received the early copy of the 4e rules. He doesn't belong in FR, and it was someone's major blunder that we are now STUCK WITH!
They decide we had too many gods, and then give us new REDUNDANT ones, along with tons of primordials, archfey, primal whatevers...
I can't play in 4e FR because the cosmology is TOO COMPLICATED!
Before I just had ton of gods to deal with... now I have even more divine beings then before, and I have to rememeber what the hell all these new, ridiculous 'categories' are for them.
Its getting late, and I'm in a foul mood, so just forget it...
They decide we had too many gods, and then give us new REDUNDANT ones, along with tons of primordials, archfey, primal whatevers...
I can't play in 4e FR because the cosmology is TOO COMPLICATED!
Before I just had ton of gods to deal with... now I have even more divine beings then before, and I have to rememeber what the hell all these new, ridiculous 'categories' are for them.
-That's something I've noticed as well, but held my tongue as not to get attacked by others about it.
The pantheon left for wherever most of the survivors went, on Fearun or otherwhere, as long as they were numerous enough. So they likely just packed their stuff on Ptah's golden chariot and left for greener (yellower?) pastures. But playing a stranded deva of the Mulhorandi should still be possible. The cycle of rebirth doesn't stop as the divine spark runs through the family bloodline. They would feel abandoned though, possesed of suffering souls of ancient glory.
...
...
Technically, the 'new' information has always been here. Things like Primordials, Archfey, etc have been in the Realms for a long time.
It's just that now they are (finally) being defined in detail.
Other possibilities include the nearby lands Chessanta (FRCG p. 100 notes Mulhorandi refugees went there), Tymanther (which was Unther and occupied by Mulhorand), Thay (the upper class humans are of Mulani descent (FRPG p. 123)), and Murghom.
The only deity considered part of the Mulhorand patheon that remains in FR is Bast (Sharess) a former consort of Anhur (Faiths and Pantheons p. 10). Other gods mentioned as being worshipped by Mulhorand include Gond and the Red Knight (FRCS p. 184). Based on the High Imaskar write-up working to get the gods to return by increasing their worship seems like it should work.
Devas are specifically mentioned in the FRPG as being coming to Faerun with the Mulhorand panttheon.
Technically, the 'new' information has always been here. Things like Primordials, Archfey, etc have been in the Realms for a long time.
It's just that now they are (finally) being defined in detail.
I thought 4E was about cutting down the details to what you needed to play, not fuel these sorts of forum debates on classifications and technicalities.
I'm having trouble figuring out the differences between a primordial, a primal spirit (or whatever they're called) and an archfey and how are they different from deities?
I step away from the forums for a couple of months and I find a barrage of new, often vague terms being discussed.
I thought 4E was about cutting down the details to what you needed to play, not fuel these sorts of forum debates on classifications and technicalities.
Not really. What they did was 'try' to get rid of the 'perceived' failings. A lot of what WotC did was with the intent of fixing the image in people's minds.
I'm having trouble figuring out the differences between a primordial, a primal spirit (or whatever they're called) and an archfey and how are they different from deities?
Primordial: greater power in the elemental chaos.
Primal Spirit: greater power in the mortal world.
Archfey: greater power in the Feywild
Deities: greater power in the Astral Sea.
I step away from the forums for a couple of months and I find a barrage of new, often vague terms being discussed.
Well, MotP, along with FRCG/FRPG have a lot of the information in them...
Technically, the 'new' information has always been here. Things like Primordials, Archfey, etc have been in the Realms for a long time.
It's just that now they are (finally) being defined in detail.
-Many (if not most) were already defined. Definitions are being changed, recategorized, reclassified, and then defined again. Take Ubtao for example.
I thought 4E was about cutting down the details to what you needed to play, not fuel these sorts of forum debates on classifications and technicalities.
-Ding.
Then again, he was Untheric (still Mulan, though).
Set's still around, isn't he? Or did they trade him for Zehir mere days after the FRCG was released?
both Zehir and Set are there, it doesn't follow the 4e philosophy
Not really. What they did was 'try' to get rid of the 'perceived' failings. A lot of what WotC did was with the intent of fixing the image in people's minds.
Trying, I gotcha. ;)
Primordial: greater power in the elemental chaos.
Primal Spirit: greater power in the mortal world.
Archfey: greater power in the Feywild
Deities: greater power in the Astral Sea.
So essentially the same thing just from different planar territories, but different terms for essentially the same thing. That does put things into perspective.
The list leaves me one question. What are the greater powers of the one missing piece of planar real estate, the Shadowfell?
Trying, I gotcha. ;)
Yup.
So essentially the same thing just from different planar territories, but different terms for essentially the same thing. That does put things into perspective.
Also yup...
The list leaves me one question. What are the greater powers of the one missing piece of planar real estate, the Shadowfell?
I can't recall at the present, but I believe that there might be some from the Shadowfell and the Far Realm.
Don't quote me on that, though.
So essentially the same thing just from different planar territories, but different terms for essentially the same thing. That does put things into perspective.
The list leaves me one question. What are the greater powers of the one missing piece of planar real estate, the Shadowfell?
Shadevari.
Or all those 'lesser Gods' we saw in the Temple of Night.
I miss the Ethereal plane.
Throw-in the expatriate Red Wizards that fled Thay, and we would have had a great everyman-for-himself civil war split along several sides.
Could have called it the 'Conflict Kingdoms' or some-such, with burning towns, troops (including monsters) marching all over the place, battlefields full of festering dead (including some that haven't decided to lie still yet), mass graves, occupied cities and all the other things that go with the horrors of un-ending war (like starvation, ****, forced conscription - sometimes children, orphans, disease, poverty, etc, etc...).
We could have had a great "hell on Earth" region, and instead we got the "Return of the Archwizards: Part 2".
except we have the Border Kingdoms, which are full of all the anarchy that one needs. plus, any DM can make a civil war any time. every country in the Realms has a violent civil war in the making written into its description.
Dropping Mulhorond was the right thing to do, as was dropping Chessenta and Unther, and the expansionist/subversive Red Wizards. There were too many analogues to the RW in the Eastern bits of the FR, and their elimination was altogether proper and fitting.
as for the Mulhorondi Gods, I would imagine that they are in Abeir, with the bulk of their people, fighting the good fight against the primordials and their draconic nemeses. although, reading this thread makes me think that this might not be 100% of the story... there are still some Mulhorondi who remain in Faerun... perhaps part* of a deity is there as well... trapped or ripped apart by the Spellplague. There's some potential there for a party that's busy in that part of the world methinks.
*not the cuddly part
Dropping Mulhorond was the right thing to do, as was dropping Chessenta and Unther, and the expansionist/subversive Red Wizards. There were too many analogues to the RW in the Eastern bits of the FR, and their elimination was altogether proper and fitting.
Honestly, the real-world analogs (like the Old Empires, Zakhara, Durpar, and the Hordelands) are, along with the "expansionist/subversive" Red Wizards of Thay, the most interesting parts of the pre-Spellplague Forgotten Realms to me. They're the parts that excite my imagination. Places like the Dalelands, the Sword Coast, Cormyr, and Sembia - basically everything that's still around in 4th edition - I find terribly dreary.
I liked the Realms exactly the way they were, because there was a different region for everyone, and no two games need be alike, or have the same flavor.
Now everywhere has Earthmotes and Plaguelands... the whole thing has blended together into one flavor... and if you happen to like that flavor thats great.
If you don't, your crap-out-of-luck.
Now everywhere has Earthmotes and Plaguelands... the whole thing has blended together into one flavor... and if you happen to like that flavor thats great.
-Blue and purple, my favorite Gatoraid flavors, but one of my least favorite Forgotten Realms flavors.
every country in the Realms has a violent civil war in the making written into its description.
-Evereska never had a civil war, let alone a violent civil war.
i meant that they have the makings of one written in.
-Evereska doesn't have the trappings of a civil war written into it, then.
it's not a stretch to write one in from existing material.
there are elven supremacist groups, those who stand for/against the Return, etc.
it's not a stretch to write one in from existing material.
-If you want to stretch things...Well, anything can be made to have some semblance of logic and coherency when you arbitrarily stretch things.
-Ted Williams wasn't that great of a hitter, because he hit .254 in 1959...Sandy Koufax wasn't a good pitcher, because his first six years weren't that good...The Forgotten Realms is a steampunk setting because it has Lantan...The Mulhorandi Pantheon are perfectly fine and dancing in Arvandor, because nothing says that they aren't.
-Evereska having factions that differ in ideology does not put it on the cusp of civil war, nor has precedence shown Evereska a hot spot for revolution.
-If you want to stretch things...Well, anything can be made to have some semblance of logic and coherency when you arbitrarily stretch things.
-Ted Williams wasn't that great of a hitter, because he hit .254 in 1959...Sandy Koufax wasn't a good pitcher, because his first six years weren't that good...The Forgotten Realms is a steampunk setting because it has Lantan...The Mulhorandi Pantheon are perfectly fine and dancing in Arvandor, because nothing says that they aren't.
-Evereska having factions that differ in ideology does not put it on the cusp of civil war, nor has precedence shown Evereska a hot spot for revolution.
Ne need to bring facts and logic into this. They only get in the way.
Great... but then.. who needs a setting?
I can run a game in Vaelenthria during the Cyrione Civil War, between the Dalgothian Highlanders and the bog-people of Terrathrax.
See? Instant campaign... and no FR in sight. ;)
The list leaves me one question. What are the greater powers of the one missing piece of planar real estate, the Shadowfell?
According to the Manual of the Planes, they're known as darklords. Just like in Ravenloft. Exactly like in Ravenloft, in fact. The Shadowfell is essentially the 4th edition version of Ravenloft.
I'm not sure that things like archfey, primal spirits, and darklords are supposed to be as powerful as gods. But maybe. Demon lords have killed gods before, after all, and primordials certainly have. I guess an individual archfey or archfiend or whatever is potentially, but not necessarily, as powerful as an individual deity, and in practice it'll generally take two or three archfey to take down Malar, should they have some reason to risk their existences doing so.
So I wouldn't assume that Azalin or Strahd are equivalent to Cyric or Bane, or even to Titania or Oberon (which still ought to be the canonical Realms names for them, right, since they were mentioned in Demihuman Deities), but they're very mighty within their domains nonetheless.
I don't think there's a separate term for Far Realm gods - examples include Ghaunadaur and Mak Thuum Ngatha.
-If you want to stretch things...Well, anything can be made to have some semblance of logic and coherency when you arbitrarily stretch things.
-Ted Williams wasn't that great of a hitter, because he hit .254 in 1959...Sandy Koufax wasn't a good pitcher, because his first six years weren't that good...The Forgotten Realms is a steampunk setting because it has Lantan...The Mulhorandi Pantheon are perfectly fine and dancing in Arvandor, because nothing says that they aren't.
-Evereska having factions that differ in ideology does not put it on the cusp of civil war, nor has precedence shown Evereska a hot spot for revolution.
to be honest, i find elves so boring that i skip the sections about them.
According to the Manual of the Planes, they're known as darklords. Just like in Ravenloft. Exactly like in Ravenloft, in fact.
Presumedly when Shar was rearranging the planar furniture she swept up the Demiplane of Dread into the same bin as the Shadow Plane and Negative Energy Plane.
Of course, following Ravenloft canon we should distinguish between the darklords who rule individual Domains of Dread and the mysterious and possibly hypothetical Dark Powers who control the plane itself.
But the 4e MotP offers us the darklords as the Shadowfell equivalent of archfey and archfiends.
I'm not sure that things like archfey, primal spirits, and darklords are supposed to be as powerful as gods.
-They should be. In the part, powerful Eladrin, Modron, Demons, Devils, and other extraplanar creatures were on par with pure divine entities, so this should still be the case.
What about the Plane of Mirrors? Pale Reflections? Ubergangers? Dopplemungers? :P
The Plane of Mirrors is among the anomalous planes with the Far Realm and the Plane of Dreams. Nothing about the inhabitants, probably the kamarel and/or nerras are still there.
So where's the Plane of Radiance?
-You gave me a great idea...
So where's the Plane of Radiance?
My understanding is that all the elemental planes were stirred up and mixed together to form the Elemental Chaos. The Plane of Radiance should still be in the mix, albeit as spotty patches here and there.
It seems likely that what were thought of as distinct Elemental Planes can be seen as having always been just one plane that had distilled itself out into separate layers or regions of uniform elements with the quasi-elemental and para-elemental planes really just the interstitial areas where two or more elements mixed together at the borders of the more homogenous regions. Like how a vinaigrette will separate into distinct layers if left to sit. The Spellplague just stirred them all together again. It's now one big swirling mess.
There is evidence that the "Elemental Planes" had a different configuration with relation to one another in the distant past, which is another indicator of the fluid nature of this plane.
It could be that the Elemental Chaos will someday separate back into distinct layers or regions given time. Or it may just be mixed up now for good.
there are elven supremacist groups, those who stand for/against the Return, etc.
it's not a stretch to write one in from existing material.
Don't bother, he is knitpicking.
-They should be. In the part, powerful Eladrin, Modron, Demons, Devils, and other extraplanar creatures were on par with pure divine entities, so this should still be the case.
The greatest lords of the demons and devils, at least, are definitely on par with the gods in 4e (Orcus's wand has the skull of a god he's killed mounted on it, Yeenoghu killed Gorellik, Asmodeus is considered a greater god, etc.).
However, Ravenloft's darklords, while they have potent control over their domains, were never considered to be divine-level combatants before. Robert Schwalb defined them as characters with an epic character path in a recent issue of Dragon, and most gods seem to be more powerful than that. One of the hallmarks of 4e is that not everything is symmetrical, so it's not necessarily problematic in those terms for the Shadowfell's powers to be weaker than those of the Abyss.
Of course, some demon and devil lords are more powerful than others. I have no problem with the idea that many of the minor ones like Mastiphal and Aldinach are substantially weaker than major powers of the Abyss like Obox-ob or Malcanthet, more like powerful mortals (or darklords) than deities. The same is true of Baatific nobles like Amduscias or Beleth versus Lords of the Nine like Dispater or Levistus.
Thats where everyone who is more then mortal, but less then a god, winds up (Fiends, Celestials, Chosen, Slaadi, Proxies, Saints, Demigods, Fraggles, etc, etc...)
Darklords get tossed into the new 'Exarch' catch-all.
Thats where everyone who is more then mortal, but less then a god, winds up (Fiends, Celestials, Chosen, Slaadi, Proxies, Saints, Demigods, Fraggles, etc, etc...)
But Clangeddin? Come on!!
Don't bother, he is knitpicking.
-It's not nitpicking when nothing actually says so.
The greatest lords of the demons and devils, at least, are definitely on par with the gods in 4e (Orcus's wand has the skull of a god he's killed mounted on it, Yeenoghu killed Gorellik, Asmodeus is considered a greater god, etc.).
-Some of that has changed, actually. Someone, a while back, was asking for information about Orcus, and when I provided parts of the whole "Tenebrous Saga", I was told by someone else that the new 4e information on Orcus has retconned and invalidated a portion of those events.
Of course, some demon and devil lords are more powerful than others. I have no problem with the idea that many of the minor ones like Mastiphal and Aldinach are substantially weaker than major powers of the Abyss like Obox-ob or Malcanthet, more like powerful mortals (or darklords) than deities. The same is true of Baatific nobles like Amduscias or Beleth versus Lords of the Nine like Dispater or Levistus.
-Weak Demon Lords are the bread and butter of good campaigns! And, of course, undead are the peanut butter and jelly.
-Some of that has changed, actually. Someone, a while back, was asking for information about Orcus, and when I provided parts of the whole "Tenebrous Saga", I was told by someone else that the new 4e information on Orcus has retconned and invalidated a portion of those events.
I wasn't talking about the Tenebrous Saga, I was talking about the information on the Wand of Orcus in the 4th edition Monster Manual. "Legends say the skull atop the wand once belonged to a god of justice and chivalry who dared challenge Orcus in battle." The Manual of the Planes seems to identify this god as Amoth - of course, not a Realms deity, but still a good illustration of how demon princes can best gods in 4th edition.
I wasn't talking about the Tenebrous Saga, I was talking about the information on the Wand of Orcus in the 4th edition Monster Manual. "Legends say the skull atop the wand once belonged to a god of justice and chivalry who dared challenge Orcus in battle." The Manual of the Planes seems to identify this god as Amoth - of course, not a Realms deity, but still a good illustration of how demon princes can best gods in 4th edition.
It was less about what you wrote and more about making a snide remark about 4e.
I wasn't talking about the Tenebrous Saga, I was talking about the information on the Wand of Orcus in the 4th edition Monster Manual. "Legends say the skull atop the wand once belonged to a god of justice and chivalry who dared challenge Orcus in battle." The Manual of the Planes seems to identify this god as Amoth - of course, not a Realms deity, but still a good illustration of how demon princes can best gods in 4th edition.
-I don't have any of the books, so I don't know what's changed and what hasn't changed, what's valid and what isn't valid any longer, and what's been added and what hasn't. All I know is that some information has been stripped from the official story, now.
It was less about what you wrote and more about making a snide remark about 4e.
-Please identify the snide remark.
Anyhow, how about this -
When Ra first arrived in the Realms, he wanted to re-attain his more powerful form, and wanted to take the position of Aumanotor (as Faerûn's 'Sun God') away from him. Through much plotting and skullduggery, he managed to weaken Aumanator's church, and thereby weaken the god himself.
Ra Challenges Aumanator and wins (a bit too easilly), absorbing his essence. Unfortunately, Aumanator foresaw this possible outcome, and created several independent Avatars to carry on and divert power from Ra (A'tar and Lathander being just two). Also, Aumanator was a bit too powerful to be fully absorbed, and Ra had to use much of his newly gained power just keeping the Aumantor persona from becoming ascendent.
Fast forward a millenia or so and Lathander's church has risen to prominence, much to Ra's chagrin, and has taken Aumanator's place (which was all part of Aumanator's plan). The Risen Sun heresy was actually a carefully premeditated trap laid by Aumanator years earlier (involving a well-hidden relic, which was actually yet-another piece of Aumanator). Ra shows up and tries to absorb the artificial sun created by the supposedly re-awakening Aumanator, and instead is caught in the cosmic backlash of it's implosion, and the Aumanator persona breaks free of Ra's dominance and overwhelms him, absorbing him in the process. Then Aumaator re-absorbs Lathander and any other avatars he may have created, and rises anew.
So now Ra is part of the tri-patriate Sun-god as well.
Just a concept, not a theory. I figure this way people of Mulan descent could still call upon Ra (Re?), and get answered - its a very '4e' way of seeing things (rolling several gods into one).
-Please identify the snide remark.
Your entire post was a jib at 4e FR and had nothing to do with what rip was talking about.
-Some of that has changed, actually. Someone, a while back, was asking for information about Orcus, and when I provided parts of the whole "Tenebrous Saga", I was told by someone else that the new 4e information on Orcus has retconned and invalidated a portion of those events.
This, coming from someone who touts the need for 'facts' and 'evidence'... This is all supposition and hearsay. Worse yet, all it shows is your low regard for 4e FR and, once again, has nothing to do with the post you quoted.
You even go on to say this...
-I don't have any of the books, so I don't know what's changed and what hasn't changed, what's valid and what isn't valid any longer, and what's been added and what hasn't. All I know is that some information has been stripped from the official story, now.
Again claiming you don't know, but spouting 'facts' with no 'evidence'. That is very un-LK like to me... unless we only need real 'facts' when it isn't agreeable to you?
Point is, I saw no reason for your post besides worming in a way to show your dislike for the current edition. If you could kindly correct me and show where your post had a point for who you quoted, then I'll apologize for misunderstanding.
-You need to take a better look, then. Rip was discussing Orcus (specifically, "Orcus's wand has the skull of a god he's killed mounted on it..."), to which I replied that Orcus' history has been changed by 4e, in ways that I am not privy to, not having the 4e books, and as such, the information he wrote concerning Orcus might not be accurate any longer. I've heard of reaching for straws, but that's ridiculous.
To which he replied that he wasn't talking about what you said, so you added that you don't know, don't have the books, etc...
Again, the point of that post is lost on me.
So now Ra is part of the tri-patriate Sun-god as well.
-Personally, I think you're doing the "too much rolling stuff together thing". Using the notion that the tripartite sun deity has three phases: Dawn, Noon, and Dusk, I don't think Ra would be a good addition. That'd make two deities (Amaunator and Ra) associated with the "full" sun, as opposed to one for the "full" sun, one for the "rising sun" and one for the "setting sun".
-It's not that hard: Rip was discussing Orcus. I interjected that recent books have altered Orcus' history. Rip then responded that what he mentioned hadn't been altered, which caused me to reply that, since I don't have the books, I don't know what specifically about Orcus has been altered, and what hasn't been altered, other than the fact that his story has been altered.
See, what I gathered was rip talking about comparative power levels between demons, devils and deities.
Then you posted a response about how someone, somewhere said old lore is invalid, without real proof and having nothing to do with his post... whatsoever...
Then he said as much (that you missed his point) and you went on to include you don't know what you were talking about anyways.
It, to me, seemed to be a jib at 4e FR for no other reason then to do so. Since you don't know the facts, didn't address his post (about comparative power levels) and just put your distaste for the current edition for all to see.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you missed his point when you quoted him.
-The discussion isn't even specifically about the Forgotten Realms, either, which is fairly comical, noting your claims of ill-intent, on my part.
-The discussion isn't even specifically about the Forgotten Realms, either, which is fairly comical, noting your claims of ill-intent, on my part.
Of course it isn't...
What happened to the Mulhorand Pantheon in 4th ed?
Not about 4e FR at all, silly me...
Anyways, I suppose you mean your discussion, which would be derailing the thread (as is our discussion), so we should let the matter drop and try not to hijack the thread any longer. Sound good?