This has probably been asked before, but what exactly DID happen to Tyr following his slaying of Helm? Since he's not in the FRPG I assume he's either dead or MIA.
my friend "Justice Endures".
Tyr is dead, died protecting the celestial reams from an invasion from the lower planes.
all Hail Torm.
Presumably the heavens, unless a deity can now be killed anywhere... and Tyr was being stupid enough to fully manifest on the prime material, rather than using an avatar.
-Hey, you never know, in these times, you know?
-Hey, you never know, in these times, you know?
From reading, it really makes it sound as if he was on Faerunian ground when it all took place. As the demon invasion occurred on Faerun and he jumped in to stop it.
BTW--how can you never know in these times, then know?
BTW--how can you never know in these times, then know?
-That's the main problem with these times. Nothing makes too much sense, when you think about it. ;)
why did he kill helm?
I think helm stole his woman, sort of
why did he kill helm?
I think helm stole his woman, sort of
-The entire debacle is described at the end of AGHotR. It was an honor duel, of sorts.
-That's the main problem with these times. Nothing makes too much sense, when you think about it. ;)
Then you either make sense of it and know or can't and don't.
Should we have a cappuccino and discuss this quandary? :whatsthis
-The entire debacle is described at the end of AGHotR. It was an honor duel, of sorts.
Indulgence will not get you anywhere!!!
why did he kill helm?
If I remember correctly, Tyr was courting Tymora after some other deity left him (Siamorphe, I believe), and Helm was acting as Tymora's "chaperone" at their request. Later on, Tyr somehow suspects that Tymora's cheating on him with Helm, so they have an honor duel. Tyr kills Helm, and then Tymora leaves him. I don't know any more, but I think they said something about how Cyric was suspected to be behind it. How'd they let him get away with killing Mystra anyway? And why the hell'd he do it in the first place?! Why did Shar help? There's a lot about Faerun's gods I just don't get. They must be crazy!!!
My question remains. What the **** was up with that? Was Lord Ao high or something?!
-The problem is trying to make sense in-setting of something when, meta-setting (ie, In real life), those who write the stories have them make no sense. For example, this used to come up a lot: Elves can sense magic, and can sense when they are within a Mythal. Richard Lee Byers' Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy introduced the Dracorage Mythal, that was planetary wide. Yet, it was a hidden secret, and no Elves knew of it. You can't make sense of it in-setting. You can only make sense of out meta-setting: Richard Lee Byers didn't realize that Elves have this "fifth sense".
Did he ever get punished for killing Helm?
-No, the two were acting within their portfolios. Stupidly, but...
Anyone?
But yeah, Tyr didn't leave the crystal sphere of FR in shame like he ought to have done, but got gutted by a legion of demons? He got that coming a long time; serves him right...
But hurray for Tyr the Just! My campaigns are still long removed from the 15th century realms!
but when the lies are true they are true lies.
nobody knows as there will be no novels out on that subject on cyric's rumored involvement.
best guess is that cyric started passing around rumors
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
Here're the relevant bits, though.
— Siamorphe quarrels with Tyr when the deities take different sides in a clash between Tethyrian and Calimshite forces. She removes herself from the House of the Triad and joins Sune’s court in Brightwater. Tyr sends Helm to plead his case with Sune. The goddess of love suggests a marriage between Tyr and Tymora to set the celestial planes in balance again. Helm conveys Sune’s suggestion to Tyr, and begins to chaperone a chaste courtship between Tyr and Tymora. Strange and fateful misunderstandings lead to the accusation that Helm has stolen Tymora’s heart while conveying the gifts and sentiments of Tyr. A strict interpretation of his own ideals forces Tyr to challenge Helm, and Helm is obliged by his own ideals to meet the challenge. The two gods do battle, and Tyr slays Helm before the deities come to their senses. Heartbroken, Tymora accompanies Tyr back to the House of the Triad. Though nothing can be proved, the gods sense the hand of Cyric in Helm’s death.
— With the Triad broken because of Helm’s death, Ilmater chooses to remove his domain from the House of the Triad. He reestablishes his celestial realm in Brightwater at Sune’s invitation.
Torm became the master of Celestia after the heroic self-sacrifice of the legendary Tyr (who perished decades ago when defending the upper realms against an overwhelming demonic incursion).
Helm was a god of Law, Guardians, and Protection - not of honor duels and buffoonery in plate mail. If he cared what others thought of him he wouldn't have killed Mystra during the ToT, he was a guy who did his job and answered to nobody but Ao.
Its ludicrous to think of him as relaying love letters between gods, much less giving a damn if Tyr said he was betraying his duties - he was always portrayed as a "So, what?" kinda god. I mean, Lathander killed his lover and he only ever got kinda upset over it, what's an insult to a guy whose entire existence is as black and white as his?
I'm still pretty miffed about that one. He gets senselessly murdered by the hands of some paintchip-eating developer, his killer gets sent off honorably instead of the "Know what dude, you killed Helm, GTFO the Realms." I was expecting, and the guy everyone blames (Cyric) is never actually accounted for - no explanation whatsoever. To top it all off, there is no mention of Helm, excluding a "treasure" - a wine jug or something of that nature, in the FRCG.
Yep, I'm still pretty miffed.
Yep, I'm still pretty miffed.
-Yeah, I can tell. ;)
So, what about Mystra's death? Did Cyric get off scot free for that too?
-No, he got imprisoned for 1,000 years. This had no noticeable effect on his clergy or church, however, as he was able to continue to grant them spells, and direct them, and all of that, so...On paper, he was punished. In reality, not really.
The gods really are crazy!
-Or, the people who write what they do, anyways. ;)
My question remains. What the **** was up with that? Was Lord Ao high or something?!
I don't think that the authors know what to do with Ao, so we can asusme he remain silent about all these changes because all of them were plausible with the portfolio of each god.
Tyr thinking that the most lawful soul around is screwing his girlfriend?
And without discussion challenge helm to a duel. The one who Ao wanted to protect the gates since he is the most trust worthy.
There should be a comic book about the whole thing.
Who the hell writes all that? It's just wrong.
I vaguely remember Baker saying the designers thought the fans would appreciate a divine dramastory akin to the Norse godson Baldr's squable with his godsbrother.
Maybe he should have asked the fans...
Maybe he should have asked the fans...
Maybe he should have checked his Norse Mythology textbook. Balder was an innocent victim. Never quarreled with anyone. Loki had him killed out of pure spite and malice, and duped Hoder into doing his dirty work. If any Aesir was inclined to throw a hissy fit over a petty thing, it'd be Thor or Odin.
I don't mind relationships between gods and so on but let it at least have sense.
And what I also didn't like is that they didn't give any info of what happened in fearun because of this event. If gods are so rash then what would mortals do?
Retribution of Helm knights? Tyr followers turning away from church since their god started to act as a child. I just don't know how could they have written that and be proud of their work. I still don’t know how they managed to kill of Mystra but I guess in havens rules ARE balanced and there is no supremacy of magic over everything else, but that’s another topic.
Quite frankly, at this point Shar and her servants have taken more time than Mystra ever did.
Mystril (Mystra's predecessor) was created by both Shar and Selune. She sided with Selune.
As for the Shadow Weave, it was just a means for her to directly control magic instead of Mystra.
And you know what? I'm glad Cyric killed Mystra, for a variety of reasons:
Lore wise, it showed he was capable of being the God of Murder and Intrigue, instead of the bumbling oaf he has been woefully cast as. It also gave a reason for the 4th edition changes, unlike in core where it "was just always that way".
And I'd hardly call Shar the favourite of the designers. That goes to Bane, who was brought back to life and then after a 100 year jump given entire pantheons to rule over. Oh, and made a core setting deity to boot.
As opposed to Bane being resurrected, getting a fickle high-priest with what has to be the worst mustache in the Realms, a tyrannical mage who isn't sure if he's a clone or not, and a fairly competant military commander wasted and summarily killed carrying out mustache-boy's idiotic orders. Not really feeling the love flowing his way... As to ruling pantheons, he had pretty much the same deal in 2e, so it was more getting back what he had lost earlier... while Shar was never actually interested in ruling anything, since she's just interested in destroying it all anyway.
And it's not, from my understanding, the same Bane in core, simply a name they happen to share, but not much else of real substance beyond the most general in common.
Why sully your hands when you can have someone else do it for you?
Mystril (Mystra's predecessor) was created by both Shar and Selune. She sided with Selune.
As for the Shadow Weave, it was just a means for her to directly control magic instead of Mystra.
And you know what? I'm glad Cyric killed Mystra, for a variety of reasons:
Lore wise, it showed he was capable of being the God of Murder and Intrigue, instead of the bumbling oaf he has been woefully cast as. It also gave a reason for the 4th edition changes, unlike in core where it "was just always that way".
And I'd hardly call Shar the favourite of the designers. That goes to Bane, who was brought back to life and then after a 100 year jump given entire pantheons to rule over. Oh, and made a core setting deity to boot.
I would definitely call Shar their favorite. Let's see..she has an entire empire devoted to her, had the equivalent of the weave at her fingertips, assimilated a race whose goal was the destruction of ALL gods, founded 2 more races, assimilated Sembia, destroyed Mystra, folded an entire PLANE into her own, has the LARGEST dominion of all the gods, has 13 princes (her equivalent of chosen) who always win, can block the ascension of deities, need I go on?
Shar has also featured the most focus in recent novels and the most supplement time. She is clearly the tool being used to make most of the change in the setting. Unfortunately, she has now become worse than the supposed problem Mystra and the Chosen had with dominating the setting.
In terms of Cyric, he did not kill Mystra alone. He did it with Shar's assistance. Cyric is the epitome of the worst assassin ever. He has NEVER killed another deity on his own. He has ALWAYS had another god holding his hand as he did so. Lore-wise, he has never done anything successfully on his own (except drive himself insane).
I would definitely call Shar their favorite. Let's see..she has an entire empire devoted to her, had the equivalent of the weave at her fingertips, assimilated a race whose goal was the destruction of ALL gods, founded 2 more races, assimilated Sembia, destroyed Mystra, folded an entire PLANE into her own, has the LARGEST dominion of all the gods, has 13 princes (her equivalent of chosen) who always win, can block the ascension of deities, need I go on?
Shar has also featured the most focus in recent novels and the most supplement time. She is clearly the tool being used to make most of the change in the setting. Unfortunately, she has now become worse than the supposed problem Mystra and the Chosen had with dominating the setting.
I completely agree with everything you've said above. Shar is untouchable, beloved by the designers/authors, and she is even more representative of all of the "problems" that Mystra and her chosen supposedly caused the setting. Shar and her Netherese princes are so overdone and melodramatic that they are not useable. They literally poison the setting for me.
In terms of Cyric, he did not kill Mystra alone. He did it with Shar's assistance. Cyric is the epitome of the worst assassin ever. He has NEVER killed another deity on his own. He has ALWAYS had another god holding his hand as he did so. Lore-wise, he has never done anything successfully on his own (except drive himself insane).
Also completely true. Cyric is nothing more than a ridiculous and posturing little man who has accidentally become a deity. He is even more stupid and useless than Shar and her princes, IMO.
"Cyric is nothing more than a ridiculous and posturing little man who has accidentally become a deity."
That perfectly describes Bane.
Bane was a mortal who became a deity and had the foresight to plan ahead in the event of his death.
Cyric became a deity because he was there and the position was open.
Actually,
Bane was a mortal who became a deity and had the foresight to plan ahead in the event of his death.
Cyric became a deity because he was there and the position was open.
Not so true, actually. Jergal resigned and gave his power up--splitting it between he, Bhaal and Myrkul.
Bane's foresight really had nothing to do with it.
EDIT: At least prior to fact.
Throughout mythology gods are often depicted as very petty, egotistical and sometimes downright malicious. And since Tyr was one of those gods it wouldn't suprise me that he had that kind of attitude. I mean, come on. He and Siamorphe break up after arguing about how a battle turns out! That's like a married couple in the real world divorcing over the outcome of a football game!
The gods depicted in mythology weren't real, physical manifestations of the very virtues they preached. These are entities so far beyond human capacity that the the thought of them acting like 14 year old high school students isn't just silly but rediculous.
Tyr was a god of justice and law, he lived by the law "an eye for an eye", but there's nothing just about -KILLING- you're friend for something that obviously didn't happen. Helm was among the most straightforward, lawful entities IN EXISTENCE, the thought of him cheating on his friend like that is insane.
More than that the entire story of courtship and "romance" hits me the wrong way. These are cosmic entities who are so much more intelligent and wise than even the best the human race has to offer that there is no appropriate measure for it. I have trouble looking at them as anything other than cosmic forces, embodiments of their domain.
Also, considering the fact that they are so intelligent, wise and charismatic to begin with you would have to think they're better at solving problems then that. The entire concept is downright silly.
Not so true, actually. Jergal resigned and gave his power up--splitting it between he, Bhaal and Myrkul.
Bane's foresight really had nothing to do with it.
EDIT: At least prior to fact.
Actually, lore-wise Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul all planned to become deities and Jergal was only 1 of the powers they supposedly encountered on their way to divinity. They had a plan to be gods.
Bane won a game of chance. Cyric seized an opportunity to become divine, that's why he stole the Tablets from Midnight and Kelemvor.
Again, being aided by a god in avatar form the entire time.
Bane won a game of chance. Cyric seized an opportunity to become divine, that's why he stole the Tablets from Midnight and Kelemvor.
Sorry, but Jergal tricked them into the game of chance such that he would not be killed outright (and drift in the Astral, as gods do when they are killed). Jergal only gave up portions of his power and portfolios, but he survived as a lesser deity.
That means those three mortals were a serious challenge for Jergal at full power with all of his original portfolios (not to mention his agents and minions), if he feared losing his entire existence altogether.
Cyric - he has been constantly aided, or has been accidentally in the right place, whenever he has "done" something for which he takes credit. More than that, he has done literally nothing -as- a deity on his own, without the direct assistance of other deities (more like, them doing whatever it is -for- Cyric). Except, as someone said, for his insanity. Which was an incredibly whiny and bizarre journey (and this has been his entire journey from mortal life throughout his entire term as a deity, now that I think about it). He's a mouse of a man, and a joke of a god. Why he is a major deity, it just makes no logical sense.
The gods depicted in mythology weren't real, physical manifestations of the very virtues they preached. These are entities so far beyond human capacity that the the thought of them acting like 14 year old high school students isn't just silly but rediculous.
Tyr was a god of justice and law, he lived by the law "an eye for an eye", but there's nothing just about -KILLING- you're friend for something that obviously didn't happen. Helm was among the most straightforward, lawful entities IN EXISTENCE, the thought of him cheating on his friend like that is insane.
More than that the entire story of courtship and "romance" hits me the wrong way. These are cosmic entities who are so much more intelligent and wise than even the best the human race has to offer that there is no appropriate measure for it. I have trouble looking at them as anything other than cosmic forces, embodiments of their domain.
Also, considering the fact that they are so intelligent, wise and charismatic to begin with you would have to think they're better at solving problems then that. The entire concept is downright silly.
So why did they create this whole sordid affair anyway? It seems like a waste of time and energy.
So why did they create this whole sordid affair anyway? It seems like a waste of time and energy.
Basically, yes. I agree. A waste of two perfectly good deities that could've been interesting for players to continue using.
But the reasoning? It essentially went along the lines of "some people are unhappy with 'too many' deities, so we need to find ways to get rid of them; let's borrow something from mythology that -seems- like it would work with the Realms deities. After all, we can't just say 'spellplague' to everything, so at least this is a different way to off several deities we don't think are interesting."
So why did they create this whole sordid affair anyway? It seems like a waste of time and energy.
Actually, Tyr was on his way to being part of the 4E Realms, but GreenKnight convinced WotC otherwise.
As you can see by reading Gk's arguments, the ideas therein were made in part to fix some of WotC's foofoos on the divine front.
It's not all sinister designers wanting to screw the Realms over as some might have you believe.
Actually, Tyr was on his way to being part of the 4E Realms, but GreenKnight convinced WotC otherwise.
As you can see by reading Gk's arguments, the ideas therein were made in part to fix some of WotC's foofoos on the divine front.
It's not all sinister designers wanting to screw the Realms over as some might have you believe.
By whole sordid affair, I meant the debacle between Helm and Tyr. Tyr's death and Torm's ascension made sense before, and now it makes even more sense after reading GreenKnight's post. I just wonder why Tyr, Helm, Siamorphe, Tymora and Sune decided to indulge in essentially a divine soap opera.
Reading the events those divinities engaged in, it leaves me with the feeling the designers and novel authors were plotting another round of god novels (with Cyric and Shar manipulating all and each other behind the scenes) ala the post-Time of Troubles novels, but it didn't come to pass.
Regardless of whether that's true or not, I don't see why WotC didn't just come out with the whole story and not leave us in the dark. There just had to be more going on that they detailed in the sourcebooks.
Shar....too enigmatic for me. Not gonna go there beyond stating she's either relying on Cyric to “do his thing” or she’s actually manipulating Cyric as a loose cannon sort of pawn.
Tyr was a god of justice and law, he lived by the law "an eye for an eye", but there's nothing just about -KILLING- you're friend for something that obviously didn't happen. Helm was among the most straightforward, lawful entities IN EXISTENCE, the thought of him cheating on his friend like that is insane.
As said in "Prince of lies", gods have a strange relation with the others.
Each sees others according to their powers (Talos sees each god as a cloud with lightning).
So, I assume that they have reall difficulties to communicate with each other.
Also, considering the fact that they are so intelligent, wise and charismatic to begin with you would have to think they're better at solving problems then that. The entire concept is downright silly.
I see one good point. In my club, these ideas sound so silly that we are decided to stay on the 3Ed for quite some time and we bought fifteen books from Mongoose publishing and Legends&lair :D
Actually, Tyr was on his way to being part of the 4E Realms, but GreenKnight convinced WotC otherwise..
Honestly, I think that the solution of Tyr "resigning" from his function is much more realictic than the idea of a superior god, killed in his realms by demons.
As to Cyric, he didn't even drive himself insane without help, having needed the mortal scribes who actually penned the works. Just has a bit "I'm a pawn, use me" shirt on as best I can tell.
Why the hell could Cyric do something that bold. I thought he was a coward.
Cyric attacked Mystra while she had denied him access to magic (which she shouldn't be able to do) and forced her to retreat from their battle because he just circumvented her ban and directly tapped into the fabric of the plane to empower himself. He's an assassin, but he's no coward
Cyric is the epitome of the worst assassin ever.
No, that's Bhaal you're talking about.
He has NEVER killed another deity on his own.
Again, Bhaal
He has ALWAYS had another god holding his hand as he did so. Lore-wise, he has never done anything successfully on his own (except drive himself insane).
He used Mask to lure her out of her realm. After that he could slain her with a rusty kitchen knife or his bare hands. He certainly didn't need Mask's avatar to do it.
Bane was a mortal who became a deity and had the foresight to plan ahead in the event of his death.
Given Bane's record of failures and incompetence I think it's much more plausible that Xvim was just as stupid as his father and simply consumed to much of Bane's leftover powers to quickly and thus accidently ressurected Bane with Bane having anything acticely planed.
Cyric became a deity because he was there and the position was open.
Cyric also slew annother goddes in his first decades (yes, he had to good sense to enlist the deity of intrigues to help in an intrigue) and broke the love between two greater gods.
His Cyrinishad plan would have worked without a single stone of Zhentil Keep being turned if not for the active opposition of two fellow greater deities and an intermediate deity (who suffered so badly from Cyric that he dropped to demigod level for a time afterwards and still hasn't recovered what Cyric took from him in retaliation)
Just recently he was most likely able to turn Tyr against Helm (which deity of lies and intrigue did ever something to compete with that?) and murdered a fellow greater power
Sorry, but Jergal tricked them into the game of chance such that he would not be killed outright (and drift in the Astral, as gods do when they are killed). Jergal only gave up portions of his power and portfolios, but he survived as a lesser deity.
That means those three mortals were a serious challenge for Jergal at full power with all of his original portfolios (not to mention his agents and minions), if he feared losing his entire existence altogether.
No. Jergal could have squished them like mere bugs instandly and without any effort.
Jergal was tired of his power for a long time and Jergal secretly manipulated the Dark Three and aided them long before they foolishly chose him as their target (maybe they were not sooo stupid and only chose Jergal because Jergal tricked them into coming to him)
So why would Cyric and Shar do all this stuff anyway, did they just want to screw up everyone's day?
Because it's their job. Remember "Prince of Lies". Deities are bound by their portfolios so much it even fogging their perception of reality.
As Ao said: It's (one of) Cyric's job(s) to strife to end even the lifes of deities
It looks like both have "take over the world" style motivations, but being an English major I loathe that motivation and can't shake the feeling there's something going on in their minds or something.
Taking over everything is (one of) Cyric's thing(s)
Shar just wants surpreme power only to dwell alone in the sweet nothingness after she has unmade everyting
Cyric attacked Mystra while she had denied him access to magic (which she shouldn't be able to do) and forced her to retreat from their battle because he just circumvented her ban and directly tapped into the fabric of the plane to empower himself. He's an assassin, but he's no coward
No, that's Bhaal you're talking about.
Again, Bhaal
He used Mask to lure her out of her realm. After that he could slain her with a rusty kitchen knife or his bare hands. He certainly didn't need Mask's avatar to do it.
Given Bane's record of failures and incompetence I think it's much more plausible that Xvim was just as stupid as his father and simply consumed to much of Bane's leftover powers to quickly and thus accidently ressurected Bane with Bane having anything acticely planed.
Cyric also slew annother goddes in his first decades (yes, he had to good sense to enlist the deity of intrigues to help in an intrigue) and broke the love between two greater gods.
His Cyrinishad plan would have worked without a single stone of Zhentil Keep being turned if not for the active opposition of two fellow greater deities and an intermediate deity (who suffered so badly from Cyric that he dropped to demigod level for a time afterwards and still hasn't recovered what Cyric took from him in retaliation)
Just recently he was most likely able to turn Tyr against Helm (which deity of lies and intrigue did ever something to compete with that?) and murdered a fellow greater power
No. Jergal could have squished them like mere bugs instandly and without any effort.
Jergal was tired of his power for a long time and Jergal secretly manipulated the Dark Three and aided them long before they foolishly chose him as their target (maybe they were not sooo stupid and only chose Jergal because Jergal tricked them into coming to him)
Because it's their job. Remember "Prince of Lies". Deities are bound by their portfolios so much it even fogging their perception of reality.
As Ao said: It's (one of) Cyric's job(s) to strife to end even the lifes of deities
Taking over everything is (one of) Cyric's thing(s)
Shar just wants surpreme power only to dwell alone in the sweet nothingness after she has unmade everyting
Well, people's opinions differ I can see :D But be sure to be accurate. Cyric killed Bhaal with Mask in avatar form. He did not do it alone.
But be sure to be accurate. Cyric killed Bhaal with Mask in avatar form. He did not do it alone.
I wasn't talking about Bhaal, that was in his pre-divine time. I was talking about Leira.
And Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul only slew (or more likely knocked out) Borem because Jergal manipulated events to have the artifact dagger find its way into their possession (and most likely was also secretly withm them during the battle)
-I always got the sense that he was manipulating things from behind the scenes as well. He didn't want the job anymore, really, so why pick these guys, and then it turns out that they aren't able to fulfill your wishes?