And, of course Ao's master in the Waterdeep Novel.
Someone once told me that an Overgod's death would destroy everything in the sphere, but is this backed up by anything anywhere?
Well I know its hard to accept, but Ao can not die. And even if he could and would, why should it make any difference?
Is this stated anywhere? Specifically "Ao can not die by any circumstances"
It makes a big difference because then the gods would be free not to follow his rules, they could of whatever they wanted.
I've never seen anything to suggest what the power level difference is (in game terms) between the gods and Ao, or between Ao and his "master"... and this is a fictional game, after all. And if something exists, then it can also theoretically end. I think it would be interesting to speculate on Ao's death and what that might mean in-game.
The only being I know of who is a match for him (assuming he can operate outside Krynn's sphere, is Chaos- the overgod of Krynnspace)
A slight correction. Chaos isn't the overgod of Krynnspace. Ionthas/Chaos is the chief servant of the Highgod. And the Highgod is the creator of Krynn.
Since there will probably be just as many answers as there are people on these boards, it just seems more like an invitation to discuss, then any real desire for answer.
Because, why would you need to even know this? Ao has nothing to do with mortals, and PCs are mortals, ergo it has no bearing what-so-ever IG.
Note that with 'They' I'm not refering to some DMs or game designers but rather to some in-game overdeities or beings superior to Ao.
Well I know its hard to accept, but Ao can not die.
-This.
So Ao can die.
-Only if the definition of death can be applied to an overdeity. Which, we don't know. I, personally, don't believe it to. It'd kind of defeat the purpose and/or point of one.
1. The gods would begin fighting plotting killing etc....between themsellves thereby create a major shake up among the current pantheon
2. One or Two Major Deities will be killed in effect throwing the planet into chaos with such things as magical plagues and what not.
3. Forgotten civilizations will sieze this moment of confusion and turmoil to make their return.
4. The realms will have some type of time displacement in which a lot of plot lines will be not completed.
5. Mages will go mad with such power flowing unchecked throughout the realms.
6. And finally Drizzt will stil be the most hated NPC.
Wait a moment........:o
Don't forget that Ao adapted is rules to fit the new reality of the Realms, after the Times of Troubles. No Ao, same rules until the end of time.
It depends what kind of rules they are. Take man-made laws, they can be broken by people, they can't legally be broken however, but can physically be broken and need to be enforced.
Now, take laws of physics, they can't physically be broken. You can't violate conservation of energy in any way (I believe) If his rules are like laws of physics and it don't require him to enforce them, then he doesn't have to worry about them ever being broken. And, who says they can't be broken? Hasn't Cyric broken many of them already? Rules are meaningless if they can broken and no one is around the enforce them. Like a city with no police but laws against murder, an anarchy.
Since there will probably be just as many answers as there are people on these boards, it just seems more like an invitation to discuss, then any real desire for answer.
And do you have a problem with that? This is a discussion board after all.
And it's also important to note how the DM would want to kill Ao. DM can do w/e he wants lol. It's just about whether it's plausible within the source and rules or not. And then, that's really up to the DM or PC's to be ok or not ok with it lol.
Actually, wasn't Ao in some hot water because he allowed to gods to run amok and reported this to his master that everything was back to normal?
So it would be a TOT2 or something similar.
Yes and no. Because defeating the purpose of an overdeity dying is defeating a purpose of the DM. It's a catch 22. DM's are supposedly able to do anything ;)
-I don't care about DMs, or whatever. I'm discussing the theoretics of the topic, in-game, and whatnot.
To be honest one can wonder why Ao got involved to begin with. Wasnt Bane the god of streife and Intrigue? By stealing the Tablets of Fate wasnt Bane in essence creating strife and intrigue among his fellow gods? I am only bringing this up because in the sequel Ao appeared as the Greater Gods were about to execute Cyric because he murdered Leira and informed the pantheon that Cyric was on following his role when he killed a fellow god ashe is the god of murder and it affected gods as well as mortals.
-Ao "started" the Time of Troubles because he felt that the deities were forgotten why they existed- for their worshipers. So, he cast them down to "teach them a lesson", and then changed the rules of reality to make the deity's worship base a factor into the total equation of Divine Rank.
Actually, wasn't Ao in some hot water because he allowed to gods to run amok and reported this to his master that everything was back to normal?
Right, and that was up to the reader to interpret who his master is. And I think most people thought it to be the 'DM'. Not literally another deity in the game. Idk/idc though, I have no opinion on the interpretation at the end of the trilogy lol.
It really is the most open-ended plot device you could use, because there are NO rules concerning Ao, and anything discussed here would have to be conjecture of the most frivolous sort.
Then again, these are the WotC boards. :P
-Deities are deities. Overdeities are overdeities.
My bad LK. I was actually making fun of the word"semantics". Not trying to argue your Pwent.
Lol. Actually have you ever tried to fight a housecat? Lol.
-Hmm...Asides from almost having my eye scratched out by a cat when I was like, seven, I have mostly had only good experiences with cats. My favorite cat is a good boy, with a dirty nose, and he's very squishy and petable.
-House cats are house cats, and lions are lions. Both are felines. Would you consider the two to be the same?
They are the same, and different. They both have the characteristics of felines, one is bigger than the other, and many genetic differences, which explains why your housecat never grows to the size of a tiger.
-Deities are deities. Overdeities are overdeities.
Except normal deities can't demote another deity of any stature to mortal form, like Ao did. A greater deity can't even demote a demi-god to mortal, but an overgod can demote a deity of any power level less than itself to mortal.
-They'd go into the Wall of the Faithless. Technically, they don't have a faith. The faithless are unclaimed by any deity, and anyone who worshiped Ao in life, they'd be unclaimed, at the proverbial end of the day.
If I was a mortal on Faerun, I'd say screw it to them and leave the sphere, either on a spelljamming ship or onto another plane. Go to Sigil and possibly join the Athar
or go to Athas, and live near the last sea, a world which not only has no gods, but god clerics there can't get spells higher than 2nd level. Safer than Sigil in some ways. Just make sure you leave before you die, as souls there go to the Gray when they die and fade away, but even that is better than the wall.Our DM didn't really even bother with religion in game, he figured it would offend some parents of the players. Clerics just meditated for their spells, and who they worshipped would only come into play with regard to what the god was. For example, a cleric of a healing deity would get extra healing powers, but there was little in regard to the deity itself. The cleric just meditated to recharge their spells and that was as far as deities came into play.
They are the same, and different. They both have the characteristics of felines, one is bigger than the other, and many genetic differences, which explains why your housecat never grows to the size of a tiger.
-Precisely the difference between deities and overdeities. Both are powerful cosmic entities, with similarities. But, "one is bigger than the other" and there are "many genetic differences" between the two.
Except normal deities can't demote another deity of any stature to mortal form, like Ao did. A greater deity can't even demote a demi-god to mortal, but an overgod can demote a deity of any power level less than itself to mortal.
-This is untrue. Corellon Larethian revoked the divine energies of Araushnee/Lolth, effectively making her a mortal (in the sense that Devils/Demons/Yugoloth/Eladrin/Modron/etc. are mortal.
If I was a mortal on Faerun, I'd say screw it to them and leave the sphere, either on a spelljamming ship or onto another plane. Go to Sigil and possibly join the Athar
-We don't know how the afterlife works. In theory, when a native from Realmspace dies in, say, Krynnspace, the deity of the dead there (Don't know; I never followed Dragonlance) could "hold" the spirits of the dead, and "trade" them with the deity of death in Realmspace (Whoever it is at the time), thus ensuring that mortals from Realmspace are judged by Realmspace standards, and mortals from elsewhere are judged by the standards of where ever it is that they come from.
Ao is the head IT guy for Realmspace. He controls the Realmspace server. Ao can grant and revoke access and divine privileges. He can lock a god out of his divine account. And Ao does so when a user abuses his privileges or poses a threat to the system.
Ao is responsible for protecting the network for the benefit of all users. He has to protect the system from malware, viruses, hacking, defective code, abusive users, denial of service attacks and other threats.
Ao is not interested in ruling Realmspace or even the gods. Ao is not a user of the system. His only goal is to keep the network running and healthy.
Make of that what you will.
Greater deities are departmental managers. They are in charge of whatever department they work in, and of the employees that work under them. These employees report directly to them.
Intermediate deities are normal associates/workers/employees/whatever term you want to use. They are the most numerous, and belong to different departments, depending on what they do.
Lesser Deities are interns. They are at the bottom of the totem pole. Technically, they are supposed to do whatever any of their higher ups tell them to do. Doing a good job over a long time often results in them being made permanent employees (Take Torm, for example).
-Hmm...Asides from almost having my eye scratched out by a cat when I was like, seven, I have mostly had only good experiences with cats. My favorite cat is a good boy, with a dirty nose, and he's very squishy and petable.
Indeed, he is.;) :D
-We don't know how the afterlife works. In theory, when a native from Realmspace dies in, say, Krynnspace, the deity of the dead there (Don't know; I never followed Dragonlance) could "hold" the spirits of the dead, and "trade" them with the deity of death in Realmspace (Whoever it is at the time), thus ensuring that mortals from Realmspace are judged by Realmspace standards, and mortals from elsewhere are judged by the standards of where ever it is that they come from.
I suppose some people are just destined for the wall. Since you can't force someone to worship anyway. If the person truly holds no reverence/love for a deity, then all they can do is say their prayers and pretend to like the god. Fundie Christians do the same thing, you have to worship god or go to hell, but you can't force someone to worship.
Also, what purpose does the wall serve in a campaign? Isn't it really irrelevant since you don't play your characters after their deaths anyway, you just roll up a new one.
Speculating here, but if Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul thought they could challenge Ao during the ToT by stealing the tablets, it does suggest only a difference in power level. After all, the gods themselves "changed" over the course of the last few editions such that PCs could challenge gods at epic levels.
What do the tablet say on them? And.....what would have happened in the tablets were destroyed during the time of troubles? Would the gods stay permanently mortal?
What do the tablet say on them? And.....what would have happened in the tablets were destroyed during the time of troubles? Would the gods stay permanently mortal?
In the end, Ao destroyed the tablets of fate. But essentially, they described the portfolios of each deity.
-They'd go into the Wall of the Faithless. Technically, they don't have a faith. The faithless are unclaimed by any deity, and anyone who worshiped Ao in life, they'd be unclaimed, at the proverbial end of the day.
Only if they 'firmly deny any [other] faith', I'd have thought, truly scorning all gods but Ao completely. Otherwise they'd go to the realm of whatever actual god they worshipped the most, as per usual, notwithstanding that they also gave devotion to an overgod, idol, themselves, something in their imagination, etc.
I'd also say that Ao probably does not have a superior, only peers and acquaintances. :D
They get together every Thursday to compare realities.
Indeed, he is.;) :D
-It's very true.
I suppose some people are just destined for the wall. Since you can't force someone to worship anyway. If the person truly holds no reverence/love for a deity, then all they can do is say their prayers and pretend to like the god. Fundie Christians do the same thing, you have to worship god or go to hell, but you can't force someone to worship.
-Which is why I dislike the system as it is. Regardless of the fact that deities do exist and everything, it's inherently tipped so that anyone who doesn't revere them in any way is punished. Those who don't revere deities shouldn't be punished or praised. The afterlife should be neutral.
Also, what purpose does the wall serve in a campaign? Isn't it really irrelevant since you don't play your characters after their deaths anyway, you just roll up a new one.
-I couldn't care less about someone's campaign. We are discussing Realmslore.
Personally I've always liked this analogy made by Gray Richardson:Make of that what you will.
Bingo!
What do the tablet say on them? And.....what would have happened in the tablets were destroyed during the time of troubles? Would the gods stay permanently mortal?
Um...weren't they destroyed during the TOT?
Therise is correct about their content though. It's why they were destroyed in the first place--to let the worshipers to determine their own fate, as well as that of the gods.I do recall from either from Prince of Lies or Crucible describing ancient Greater Powers fighting against beings as powerful as Ao, implying that he can be killed. But that's been contradicted by source books already.
Where?! What! Hotdog Yo-yo!!
Whatchutalkinboutwillis?!!Ao does have a superior/counterpart. What or who and its fuction are unknown to me, but it is known that beings classifed is "Prime Movers" are refered to in core books.
Excuse you?
Therise is correct about their content though. It's why they were destroyed in the first place--to let the worshipers to determine their own fate, as well as that of the gods.
Where?! What! Hotdog Yo-yo!!
Whatchutalkinboutwillis?!!
Excuse you?
Yay! The Dookiekins is BACK! :D
Um...weren't they destroyed during the TOT?
-Yes. Basically, Ao did something to the effect of, '"Oh, these? These don't do anything", crushed them, and threw them away'.
-Yes. Basically, Ao did something to the effect of, '"Oh, these? These don't do anything", crushed them, and threw them away'.
Frankly, that was the best moment of that entire series.
Which very much adds support to my McCarthy theory I'll point out...
which is ....?
Yay! The Dookiekins is BACK! :D
I’m a figment of your imagination. Return to watching the pink elephants graze and ignore me.
-Yes. Basically, Ao did something to the effect of, '"Oh, these? These don't do anything", crushed them, and threw them away'.
Yeah, I knew that. Guess my sarcasm wasn’t sarcasmi enough.
Where’d I put that Sarcasm for Dummies book anyway?
which is ....?
Um…that Jenny McCarthy is hot?
Muffinhead.
Which really isn't that different from the stunt that Ao seemed to have pulled in a lot of respects, looking back on it.
Every god can be killed. Even Ao. But not by the Gods of Toril. And from what I've seen once a god dies their energy/power is absorbed by the being that killed him/her with some exceptions. Now if Ao dies of natural causes well who knows.
Natural causes?!! Natural frucking causes?!?!!
That is just frucking hilarious—I’m in tears right now!
Actually. Reorx is the literal creator of Krynn. And each god developed their own people as you will. Paladine/elves, Gilean/humans, Takhisis/irda/ogres. The High God just created the universe/cosmos. But you can read this in Dragons Of Summerflames. But we shouldn't tallk about Dragonlance as this is a Forgotten Realms forum and this thread might get moved.
Nice catch.
---
As for Ao, I look at him as just another step up.. No, Ao doesn't grant clerical spells to mortals, but he grants powers to the gods. The gods, in turn, grant spells to their followers.
In reverse, the PC's serve the gods and the gods serve Ao.
In addition, if a PC or PC's can kill a god, a god or gods can kill Ao.
For me, that is the ultimate campaign. Have the PC's reach the goal of godhood, then have them amass power and kill Ao.
You play their ascension through the D&D rules, their godhood through a mix of D&D and Risk (god strife/mortal battles), then the end in D&D.
That would rock like granny in my opinion.
McCarthy and the whole Red Scare thing... shouldn't be too hard to google or Wiki for information. Suffice to say, he said he had a list of confirmed communists on a piece of paper he waved around, with the number on the list changing almost every time he mentioned it. Turned out it was a laundry list, that he was pretty much a drunken twit, and in the process had ruined the lives of a lot of people, simply for not allowing themselves to be bullied by him. A real great guy if there ever was one, who reigned over a very dark period of American history. Great way to start off the 1950's though...
Which really isn't that different from the stunt that Ao seemed to have pulled in a lot of respects, looking back on it.
Oh. And, while I tried, I didn't get this. Think you are just digging too deep and afraid of being oppressed.
It's ok, man. We all love you.
-Precisely the difference between deities and overdeities. Both are powerful cosmic entities, with similarities. But, "one is bigger than the other" and there are "many genetic differences" between the two.
Not exaclty. Archdevils would be Cosmic Entities. Or demon lords. Or the celestial paragons. But not deities. Deities are deities, or Divine Entities, if you prefer. No cosmic power about them at all.
-This is untrue. Corellon Larethian revoked the divine energies of Araushnee/Lolth, effectively making her a mortal (in the sense that Devils/Demons/Yugoloth/Eladrin/Modron/etc. are mortal.
Again not exaclty. Even if an unique demon (if not demon lord) would be considered mortal, Corellon could have as well demoted her to a drow/dark elf and not a demon, if your claim were true.
Ao tablets=Macarthys list by way of both were used as a tool to keep people/gods in line but utterly pointless and wastes of time
Not exaclty. Archdevils would be Cosmic Entities. Or demon lords. Or the celestial paragons. But not deities. Deities are deities, or Divine Entities, if you prefer. No cosmic power about them at all.
-There is no such D&D classification as 'Cosmic Entity'. It is a term I randomly used to describe deities, Archdevils, Demon Lords, Yugoloth Lords, Eladrin Queens, Primus, and all other entities that are deific in power, but aren't deities. So, yes, they'd all be Cosmic Entities. I made the classification up, after all!
Again not exaclty. Even if an unique demon (if not demon lord) would be considered mortal, Corellon could have as well demoted her to a drow/dark elf and not a demon, if your claim were true.
-As can be seen in the appropriate passage in Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Lolth becomes something much different from a Dark Elf.
-There is no such D&D classification as 'Cosmic Entity'. It is a term I randomly used to describe deities, Archdevils, Demon Lords, Yugoloth Lords, Eladrin Queens, Primus, and all other entities that are deific in power, but aren't deities. So, yes, they'd all be Cosmic Entities. I made the classification up, after all!
It's not just a term you sometimes use but rather a term some third parties use to describe the unique paragons of various outsiders, from LG to CE. And Dicefreaks came up with that. And Primus is a deity. Even in canon.
Edit:
And I know of only one Eladrin Queen. :P
-As can be seen in the appropriate passage in Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Lolth becomes something much different from a Dark Elf.
And this was my point. If Corellon were able to 'demote another deity of any stature to mortal form' he would have made her a dark elf, and not a unique demon that is considerably more powerful than a simple mortal.
Can a Mortal Pc actually kill a true god?
That depends on the DM I suspect... is it within the rules? Technically, yes it was possible, in the same sense that you might spontaneously teleport into the middle of a bookcase, or vice versa through tunnelling and all that. I'd think with 4e's rules it might even be argued that when you hit 30th level, you're kind of supposed to be gunning for deities... not sure I'd agree with that characterization, but that was always an option for epic level characters in most of the rulesets.
In the end, Ao destroyed the tablets of fate. But essentially, they described the portfolios of each deity.
Do you know why they were so important and helm had to guard them? Why did Bane and Myrkul steal them, what power did it give them to do so? Since they apparently weren't nessecary anyway and Ao destroyed them.
Also, Ao lives in a plane even beyond/more powerful than the outer planes. Well, at least On Hallowed Ground says his plane is unknown, but that's my theory.
Can a Mortal Pc actually kill a true god? I know a bunch of gods died during the time of troubles but 3 were killed by other gods(Bane and Torm killed each other, Mystra killed by Helm) and Bhaal was killed by Cyric yes but he had Mask's help in the form of Godsbane. So is there any other documented case of a mortal killing a god without divine help? …
Yes. Finder Wyvernspur did so with Moander. It’s a weak case to a degree, but it was done.
That depends on the DM I suspect...
Yes. If the DM doesn’t allow you to urinate, your character can’t urinate.
Do you know why they were so important and helm had to guard them? Why did Bane and Myrkul steal them, what power did it give them to do so? Since they apparently weren't nessecary anyway and Ao destroyed them.
Also, Ao lives in a plane even beyond/more powerful than the outer planes. Well, at least On Hallowed Ground says his plane is unknown, but that's my theory.
It’s called a ”bait and switch.” The tablets were created for the very purpose they served.
Speculating here, but if Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul thought they could challenge Ao during the ToT by stealing the tablets, it does suggest only a difference in power level. After all, the gods themselves "changed" over the course of the last few editions such that PCs could challenge gods at epic levels.
I've never seen anything to suggest what the power level difference is (in game terms) between the gods and Ao, or between Ao and his "master"... and this is a fictional game, after all. And if something exists, then it can also theoretically end. I think it would be interesting to speculate on Ao's death and what that might mean in-game.
Ah, but in the end, all those three did was annoy Ao. They neither garnered more power (and Ao pretty much outright stated their plan was doomed to failure from the outset) nor really challeneged him. The ToT seemed as much a slap to all gods and reminder to "Stop foolin' around amongst yourselves and pay attention to your followers!" After this, all god's power levels were more closely tied to the number and faithfulness of their followers.
This really implies to me that none of the Faerunian under gods can hold a candle to Ao. They have to have worshipers to stay gods. Ao neither needs, wants nor encourages worshipers. Oh and he's the one that made all the other gods need their worshipers. If he can muck around with how their divinity works and if it works at all, he wins.
Can I just ask what purpose this question serves?
Since there will probably be just as many answers as there are people on these boards, it just seems more like an invitation to discuss, then any real desire for answer.
Because, why would you need to even know this? Ao has nothing to do with mortals, and PCs are mortals, ergo it has no bearing what-so-ever IG.
Well, I think that not only can Ao die, but he was actually killed by Mask, who become the next overdeity, who then spawned a new Mask to take the old Mask's place, who was then absorbed by Shar during the Spellplague confussion, which only happened because Ao was looking the other way while Mask was killing him. Did you follow all that? Cause I got lost somewhere in the middle part there.
So for the official total that makes two different and contradictory opinions from your's truly so HAH now there are slightly more than one opinion per person. Though granted statistically not by much.
Also, where do you think Ao worshippers go when they die? Sure, they don't get any spells or any benefits of any kind (although they've never been slain) but they do worship a deity, even if that deity never acknowledges them.
I had a friend who created an Epic Level PClass as the Cleric of AO. You had to play thirty levels as a Cleric with no spells before being able to take the class, had to really deal with enforcing the status quo as Ao set it (not that you as a character honestly know what that is) and live to tell the tale. Then you get Ao's notice and at 31st level are now a full 31st level cleric with all that entails. Mazel Tov!
Needless to say it hurt peoples brains and no one took the option. Though a campaign or two of his did run kinda from 1st to 30+ (there were some time and level jumps here and there), it wasn't really practical.
I had a friend who created an Epic Level PClass as the Cleric of AO. You had to play thirty levels as a Cleric with no spells before being able to take the class, had to really deal with enforcing the status quo as Ao set it (not that you as a character honestly know what that is) and live to tell the tale. Then you get Ao's notice and at 31st level are now a full 31st level cleric with all that entails. Mazel Tov!
Needless to say it hurt peoples brains and no one took the option. Though a campaign or two of his did run kinda from 1st to 30+ (there were some time and level jumps here and there), it wasn't really practical.
Well, nice way for the DM to allow, but rulewise, the followers of Ao all end up in the Wall.
It's like a Pink Floyd nightmare and such.
I had a friend who created an Epic Level PClass as the Cleric of AO. You had to play thirty levels as a Cleric with no spells before being able to take the class, had to really deal with enforcing the status quo as Ao set it (not that you as a character honestly know what that is) and live to tell the tale. Then you get Ao's notice and at 31st level are now a full 31st level cleric with all that entails. Mazel Tov!
Needless to say it hurt peoples brains and no one took the option. Though a campaign or two of his did run kinda from 1st to 30+ (there were some time and level jumps here and there), it wasn't really practical.
I wonder what Ao does all day, sit in his void and meditate? It says "the worlds he watches over," though it only means worlds in the FR crystal sphere, unless those worlds have gods other than the ones on Toril.
End of discussion. No need to debate further.
Yes, sir father. Whatever you say. After all, you're a mod and can lock the thread on a whim. can't you You're the Ao of this discussion thread. Your laws are not negotiable, your will absolute, your edicts not to be denied. Now pull down your drawers and I'll give you a good one of your right cheek. You'd like that wouldn't you?
Yes, sir father. Whatever you say. After all, you're a mod and can lock the thread on a whim. can't you You're the Ao of this discussion thread. Your laws are not negotiable, your will absolute, your edicts not to be denied.
Um, not really. I mean, I'd like that and stuff, but I'm just a Dookie when its all said and done....
Now pull down your drawers and I'll give you a good one of your right cheek. You'd like that wouldn't you?
Go anywhere near my cheeks and I'm slappin' you upside the head with a wiffle ball bat. It may not hurt a lot, but I guarantee that the Ka-Thwunk will resonate in your ears for at least two full minutes!
Yes, sir father. Whatever you say. After all, you're a mod and can lock the thread on a whim. can't you You're the Ao of this discussion thread. Your laws are not negotiable, your will absolute, your edicts not to be denied. Now pull down your drawers and I'll give you a good one of your right cheek. You'd like that wouldn't you?
Nah, he's the Judge. About the only other person besides LK you don't mess with. Cause if you do then the ghost of Sammy Davis, Jr. shows up in a robe and wig singing "here comes the judge, here comes the judge" and nobody wants that. Ghosts are just spooky.
Nah, he's the Judge. About the only other person besides LK you don't mess with. Cause if you do then the ghost of Sammy Davis, Jr. shows up in a robe and wig singing "here comes the judge, here comes the judge" and nobody wants that. Ghosts are just spooky.
Argh!!! Poodle-kick-stix! What the hell is wrong with you!!!? I told you that Sammy is long gone and that I have hired Ricardo Montalban now that he is dead!!!
From now on, every time someone pisses me off, that little midget of his is going run out and scream, "The Fugue Plane, Boss,!! The Fugue Plane!!"
At which point, Ricardo will come out as suave as ever and say, "Welcome to Fanaticacy Island."
Get your sh*t together!!
We've both been away for a bit, but you must remember that we need to stay in the now. Sammy is long gone.
And Ao will stomp on all of you, just as soon as he's back from his vacation on some remote tropical island and recovered from the mai-tai hangover...
What's this crap with not messing with LK? The Failed Archmage is hardly something to be a-feared of... JD's even less frightening.
And Ao will stomp on all of you, just as soon as he's back from his vacation on some remote tropical island and recovered from the mai-tai hangover...
Okay, he's not a failed Archmage. He's the reincarnation of a failed god. Big dif.
And I told you, Mask offed Ao and became the new overdeity. While he was learning his new responsibilities Cyric and Shar were able to gank Mystra and start all this spellplague madness. So, Ao aint comin' to back you up.
And no, Mask is not an overdeity. He's too much of a pud for that to ever happen. Ao's still very much around. :P
Failed Archmage... were he not, we'd be talking about the death of Karsus, not the death of Mystra. :P
And no, Mask is not an overdeity. He's too much of a pud for that to ever happen. Ao's still very much around. :P
Ah, but see my description of how/why the Spellplague was allowed to upset the status quo is really more likely (one of the pud's pulling off the biggest and most ridiculous gank in Realmsian history) than yours (Ao failed miserably to uphold the status quo). I'm just sayin'.
What's this crap with not messing with LK? The Failed Archmage is hardly something to be a-feared of... JD's even less frightening.
I am all powerfully… um…yeah…uh…BOO! Yeah!!
Beware, buddy!!!
Okay, he's not a failed Archmage. He's the reincarnation of a failed god. Big dif.
Uh..self-personified. Doesn’t change much, but sets the record straight… :D
Spellplague? Never heard of it. :P
It’s called “blocking out the past.” As you mature (should that happen) you’ll remember the truth and commit a horrible suicide, due to what you learn.
Failed Archmage... were he not, we'd be talking about the death of Karsus, not the death of Mystra. :P
Death of Karsus or not talking. Mystril had certain defenses against people stealing her power, Karsus bulled through them by means unknown but they didn't stay up afterward. Without Mystril's suicide, I'd have contested the issue using an alternate ritual that due to certain perks I enjoyed at the time moves much faster than Karsus Avatar if it's directed at the Lady. Toril may not have lived through the result.
For the moment though, failed or not Karsus still has approximately enough power to break an unprotected planet in half and beat people to death with the pieces. It's one of the traditional signs that one has moved from talented young journeyman to a true archwizard and while it's much easier than it used to be tradition holds. Karsus has met the criteria in matters of magical might for some centuries now and with the majority of Mystra's strength in other worlds so that Cyric gaining plot armor here doesn't endanger everything you lot are on your own unless someone can con Ioulaum or Larloch into joining in.
Therise is correct about their content though. It's why they were destroyed in the first place--to let the worshipers to determine their own fate, as well as that of the gods.
Yet it was only a symbolic act. The tablets itself never held any kind of power, they were just that: tablets with some writ on them.
The Dark Three wrongly believed that the tablets would have some kind of power and didn't realize that they were totally worthless.
It's not just a term you sometimes use but rather a term some third parties use to describe the unique paragons of various outsiders, from LG to CE. And Dicefreaks came up with that.
While I greatly enjoy most of the Dicefreaks stuff, it hasn't any actualy bearing on canon D&D. And they were not the first to make such a cosmic/divine distinction, only the first ones to use it to describe the relationship of D&D entities
Do you know why they were so important and helm had to guard them? Why did Bane and Myrkul steal them, what power did it give them to do so? Since they apparently weren't nessecary anyway and Ao destroyed them.
Like said above: No power at all.
The Dark Three didn't know that and neither did Helm (or any of the other gods). They all thought that if Ao created them, their just has to be something special about them. Ao just fooled them all.
Can a Mortal Pc actually kill a true god?
So far the answer was no. In both 2e and 3e the FR had the special rule that you couldn't deliver a true death blow to any deity (even a demigod) without some divine backing from annother deity.
So is there any other documented case of a mortal killing a god without divine help?
So far no. However there is no mention so far how 4e deals with the special FR rule.
Yes. Finder Wyvernspur did so with Moander. It’s a weak case to a degree, but it was done.
Finder's death blow to Moander was made possible through the divine backup of Tymora.
Huh!?
Yeah, that's pretty much what I said. But I could never be as eloquent as you, Judge! ;)
Yet it was only a symbolic act. The tablets itself never held any kind of power, they were just that: tablets with some writ on them.
I’m aware. 'Else Ao would have broke them and did the Funky Bunch dance, screaming, “Look what I did! Look what I did!”
Finder's death blow to Moander was made possible through the divine backup of Tymora.
I’ve heard this before. In all seriousness, what exactly did Tymora do to help him? I always assumed it was just a sort of blessing.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I said. But I could never be as eloquent as you, Judge! ;)
Keep studying up on your west side Ebonics. You'll get there. ;)
You amuse me, you all may exist another day. Except JD, he's lost his all-he-can-eat hot sauce priveledges. :P
While I greatly enjoy most of the Dicefreaks stuff, it hasn't any actualy bearing on canon D&D. And they were not the first to make such a cosmic/divine distinction, only the first ones to use it to describe the relationship of D&D entities
I'm well aware of both of your points, however. I just wanted to make this clear, once and for all ;)
*yawn* @ all of it.
You amuse me, you all may exist another day. Except JD, he's lost his all-he-can-eat hot sauce priveledges. :P
You do realize this will mean a drastic sales drop in your taco's, don't you?
I mean, I'm like China to your economy. No hot sauce: no income.
You and your family starve and I move to Mexico for my fix.
BTW, Ao rules!!
Speculating here, but if Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul thought they could challenge Ao during the ToT by stealing the tablets, it does suggest only a difference in power level. After all, the gods themselves "changed" over the course of the last few editions such that PCs could challenge gods at epic levels.
I've never seen anything to suggest what the power level difference is (in game terms) between the gods and Ao, or between Ao and his "master"... and this is a fictional game, after all. And if something exists, then it can also theoretically end. I think it would be interesting to speculate on Ao's death and what that might mean in-game.
There could be a power difference... by an order of existence. It was made implicit that the Dark Trio grossly underestimated AO and were unaware that the tablets were totally meaningless. Perhaps the difference between AO and the gods are similar to a character and a DM.
There could be a power difference... by an order of existence. It was made implicit that the Dark Trio grossly underestimated AO and were unaware that the tablets were totally meaningless. Perhaps the difference between AO and the gods are similar to a character and a DM.
Similar to my post:
As for Ao, I look at him as just another step up.. No, Ao doesn't grant clerical spells to mortals, but he grants powers to the gods. The gods, in turn, grant spells to their followers.
In reverse, the PC's serve the gods and the gods serve Ao.
In addition, if a PC or PC's can kill a god, a god or gods can kill Ao.
I'm not so sure that the DM isn't above Ao, the gods, and the PC's though. The DM has the choice to manipulate them all to some degree.
Similar to my post:
I'm not so sure that the DM isn't above Ao, the gods, and the PC's though. The DM has the choice to manipulate them all to some degree.
The DM takes on a different level of existence relative to Ao. With a thought, we can make him the red nose wife of Lord Karsus.
The DM takes on a different level of existence relative to Ao. With a thought, we can make him the red nose wife of Lord Karsus.
I'm not about to speculate on the future possibilities of LK's wife. Rino might jump in and give us a chick flick.
As for the DM vs. Ao, I think you may have taken this a step too far.
You see, the DM actually exists, where Ao does not. Sort of like LK and his wife. ;)
I lookat it this way: While a Dm can kill your character in his game you can just go to a different DM and bam you're back in the realms playing. However if Ao were to kill a "canon" character/god there is no coming back unless Ao wants you too. Just my take.
Edit: I know Bane and a few other gods have come back but they weren't specifically killed by Ao were they? The point is that if Ao truely wants a character/god to stay dead then said character or god stays dead. But you can always go to a different DM if you want your character back(and I know its a cheesy cop out but I have seen it done.)
-Anyway, Ptah is Ptah. In D&D, he was the Spelljammer deity (as in, plenty of Spelljamming crews worshiped him as their protector. Because so many people worship him, some say he's an Overdeity, or even more.
The conversations around here are making less and less sense every day... I'm impressed at their incoherency actually. Well done all of you. Pretty soon this section will be almost completely useless... ;)
Too late. When you have the words"What if" and "Ao" in the same sentence is already useless(kidding). I'm just rolling with the flow.
I lookat it this way: While a Dm can kill your character in his game you can just go to a different DM and bam you're back in the realms playing. However if Ao were to kill a "canon" character/god there is no coming back unless Ao wants you too. Just my take.
That would be an alternate universe and not necessarily the laws that make up how power is structured in a world itself.
The conversations around here are making less and less sense every day... I'm impressed at their incoherency actually. Well done all of you. Pretty soon this section will be almost completely useless... ;)
And we wonder what draws you to keep coming back.
Sticking a stiletto into the ribs of LK as the mood strikes of course, duh... :P
Stiletto?
Are we a transvestite, Stigger?!! Oh, my!!
Though there I was referring to the Italian dagger, not the heel. ;)
Well, I have worn skirts and make-up in public, so... :P
Though there I was referring to the Italian dagger, not the heel. ;)
If its not magical it won't work
Listen this question will be debated from now til the end of the realms(Ao dying) so do with Ao as you feel make up your own rules as to what will happen when he dies and play your game. In the end "you" are the overlord of your cosmos and determine what is "Canon" as far as your world is concerned and if players don't like it well so be it they don't have to be in your game do they?
And my weapons are always magical...
Though my wife's elven rogue carrying around obsidian daggers just to deal with ironguarded wizards is always fun too. :D
Nice to know who I can go to if I need the wizard killed who keeps stealing my chocolate milk
Lol I better stop before I get chastised
Well, I have worn skirts and make-up in public, so... :P
Gack!
Yes it was. But sometimes things have to be repeated because of some thick headed fighters(or some slow witted Drow elf child named Drizztsmanchild who thinkeshs heshs speshial because his matron mommy sayeshs so).
You’re a Drizztmanchild-thing. The only thing your matron mommy would find special about you is your worth to Lloth on the altar.
Listen this question will be debated from now til the end of the realms(Ao dying) so do with Ao as you feel make up your own rules as to what will happen when he dies and play your game. In the end "you" are the overlord of your cosmos and determine what is "Canon" as far as your world is concerned and if players don't like it well so be it they don't have to be in your game do they?
Keep tryin'. I guarantee that this topic will be revisited. Repeatedly.
Forever.
And ever....
Again....
And again...
...
Listen this question will be debated from now til the end of the realms(Ao dying) so do with Ao as you feel make up your own rules as to what will happen when he dies and play your game. In the end "you" are the overlord of your cosmos and determine what is "Canon" as far as your world is concerned and if players don't like it well so be it they don't have to be in your game do they?
-Not that any of that should stop us from debating. That's the point of these forums: to talk and debate lore issues like this, or other stuff.
The conversations around here are making less and less sense every day... I'm impressed at their incoherency actually. Well done all of you. Pretty soon this section will be almost completely useless... ;)
Ah, choas, panic, disorder . . .
my work here is done.
You’re a Drizztmanchild-thing. The only thing your matron mommy would find special about you is your worth to Lloth on the altar.
Only if he is the third manchild or they've run out of slaves for some generic sacrifice. Then I could see them lookin' around, thinking "who are we gonna sacrifice" when their eyes fall on Drizztmanchild.
Keep tryin'. I guarantee that this topic will be revisited. Repeatedly.
Forever.
And ever....
Again....
And again...
...
So how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?
-Not that any of that should stop us from debating. That's the point of these forums: to talk and debate lore issues like this, or other stuff.
My point is that a few months is going to go by and another person is going to ask the same question and we'll all be here to give our same answers.
It's a redundant cycle that is as bad as Stigger venting out on kitties.
Well put.
Put it up your CENSORED.
So how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?
Which came first: Chicken or the egg?
----
Look, the question of Ao and his demise is all up to the DM. The DM has absolutely every creative right to do what he/she feels fit to do, because there are no rules or Realm altering facts to make one guilty about any decision made, other than their own lack of creativity.
Things would be far different if it was someone like Eliminster we were discussing.
The egg came first, since chickens came after the evolution of the egg as a reproductive method.
:D
Ah, there you are. Finally. Substance.
*yawn* @ all of it.
You amuse me
Amuse you how? As in I'm funny to you? How am I a funny guy? "GoodFellas"
As does Ao.
I hate that movie... :P
As does Ao.
But what if Ao dies?
Will he still hate it?
Anybody have the pieces or a copy of the Tablets of Fate?
'Cause I guarantee their is something in there that say's Stig wear's cement shoes someplace. :D
A man with a robe that reflected the stars, with a white beard and neither young nor old (though he was confused how he could not be old and have a white beard)
And I also heard Ao was seen once on Mount Waterdeep overlooking the city, what did he look like?
I wonder what he does when he's not talking to the gods, he only has power over realmspace, so I wonder if that's his only job is to make sure the gods follow the rules.
Which came first: Chicken or the egg?
Neither, Eggs were first laid by dinosaurs some of which evolved into birds.
Also, is there anything say what Ao looks like? Someone told me once there was a reference to
And I also heard Ao was seen once on Mount Waterdeep overlooking the city, what did he look like?
I wonder what he does when he's not talking to the gods, he only has power over realmspace, so I wonder if that's his only job is to make sure the gods follow the rules.
-The above quotation is indeed in regards to Ao.
-As for what he looks like...Whatever he wants. Normal deities don't have actual forms (being masses of divine energy), and Ao is no different. In theory, he can appear however he likes.
Neither, Eggs were first laid by dinosaurs some of which evolved into birds.
-Um...That dinosaurs laid eggs demonstrates that eggs came first. To "truly" get the quandary, it should more properly be: "What came first: Chicken eggs or the chicken".