What is the status of Kossuth in 4E and if known, could you point me to your source?
-wrecan, your friendly neighborhood forum lead[/highlight]
-Anyway, presumably, Kossuth will remain in the setting in some fashion, be it deity, exarch, powerful outsider, whatever.
Kossuth is the forgotten realms god of fire from 2nd and 3/3.5 edition. He is a major god and fairly powerful, though not particularly popular among players. He is big in Thay.
Would it be safe to assume he was around in 1e as well?
I hope he is though, I kind of liked him
He represents a prime deity of fire, one of the elemnts - something that will never vanish.
Same goes for akadi, Grumbar and Isthishia.
Would it be safe to assume he was around in 1e as well?
-I'm...not sure.
Would it be safe to assume he was around in 1e as well?
and in OD&D, and even in No-e (before D&D was born, and the Realms existed as a concept in Ed Greenwood's stoies).
-An ancient, non-divine entity on par with deities? Like what Demon Lord and Archdevils are (in effect, if not name)?
-I'm...not sure.
Kossuth was in the "old gray box" 1st edition FR. ;)
Same for Grumbar, Istishia, and Akadi. They're listed under "Elemental Lords" in the Cyclopedia, the god or goddess of their respective element, but are considered "lesser powers" per 1st Edition rules.
In the 4E Realms, Kossuth will be an epic-level "boss" fight, deep within a mountain complex of evil, dark dwarves. Be sure to bring fire resistance potions, fire resistance gear, and plan on a good balance of classes to allow for appropriate buffs and de-buffs. Oh wait, sorry... this last bit is Ragnaros from Warcraft. I do tend to mix up Warcraft and 4E these days. ;)
Kossuth was in the "old gray box" 1st edition FR. ;)
Same for Grumbar, Istishia, and Akadi. They're listed under "Elemental Lords" in the Cyclopedia, the god or goddess of their respective element, but are considered "lesser powers" per 1st Edition rules.
-And now, I am sure. Yes, Escef, Kossuth was.
;)
-What is a 'Primordial'?
-An ancient, non-divine entity on par with deities? Like what Demon Lord and Archdevils are (in effect, if not name)?
Yep. They created the elemental chaos. The dieties created the primes or natural worlds. Tharizdun has sommat to do with the Demons and the Abyss. So he is a primordial from the far realms or an alternate plane of Oerth or Greyhawk. Is this a retcon? I always thought the elder elemental lords were far more ancient and powerful than the "new age" dieties.
Yep. They created the elemental chaos. The dieties created the primes or natural worlds. Tharizdun has sommat to do with the Demons and the Abyss. So he is from the far realms. Is this a retcon? I always thought the elder elemtal lords were far more ancient and powerful than the "new age" dieties.
-Well, this is a halfway non-existent Core Setting, so they have leeway to do whatever is they want to do. If applied to the Forgotten Realms, it would be a retcon, in so much as deities did not create the world (As far as we know, Ao did).
-Well, this is a halfway non-existent Core Setting, so they have leeway to do whatever is they want to do. If applied to the Forgotten Realms, it would be a retcon, in so much as deities did not create the world (As far as we know, Ao did).
True--the "core setting" has a creation story (although IIRC it was described as one possible origin for the cosmos), and that story is so different from the Realms creation story that it could not be applied to the Realms without retconning stuff.
True--the "core setting" has a creation story (although IIRC it was described as one possible origin for the cosmos), and that story is so different from the Realms creation story that it could not be applied to the Realms without retconning stuff.
-Do you think they'd change the Realms' creation story?
No but they can stick the Elemental Chaos on the Realms with ease. I mean when have the elemental planes played a pivotal role in realm history?
-Pivotal? Rarely. But, they've always been there.
The major center of worship for Kossuth, Thay will now most likely have Bane as a state religion. Maybe some Kossuthans have survived in the wizard's reach.
-Do you think they'd change the Realms' creation story?
I'd like to think they wouldn't, but who knows at this point?
Apparently, the Spellplague is (as usual) going to be the catch-all explanation for the cosmological changes to the setting.
I'd like to think they wouldn't, but who knows at this point?
Apparently, the Spellplague is (as usual) going to be the catch-all explanation for the cosmological changes to the setting.
-Ugh. I tried to think of something witty to type here, but it didn't work...
:embarrass
Didn't they already partly change the creation story? I mean where did Abeir come from?
-Yeah, that was a retcon. We don't have the full story, though, so I don't know if the Creation Mythos was changed, or if something subsequent to that was changed. We shall see...
Honestly the only part of Realms cosmology that I dislike is that damn wall of the faithless. But I've mentioned that before
Perhaps in my campaign, the Spellplague will have caused that damn thing to finally fall.As for the Wall of the Faithless, I like it. It's nice and characterful.
Ao still exists, but he won't be mentioned. At all.
-
-While I like the concept of Ao, ignoring a "problem" does not make it go away, so to speak.
As for the Wall of the Faithless, I like it. It's nice and characterful.
-Like the Time of Troubles, the Wall of the Faithless is a thing that I like in concept, but not in execution.
He also lends his name to Kossuth Avenue in the Bronx. Tricksy Ed Greenwood!
-I've seen graffiti that seemed to me to say 'Malkizid', and a man wearing a navy blue hat with gold letters that said 'TORM', so...
He also lends his name to Kossuth Avenue in the Bronx. Tricksy Ed Greenwood!
And he is based on Kakatal from the Melnibonean Mythos -
IIRC, Ed was rather fond of his 1st printing 1e Deities & Demigods manual. ;)
The Earth Elemental Lord was called Grome... see a pattern here? :P
Anyhow, the 'Primordials' take the place of Titans from Greek Myth, or Jotuns from Norse Myth. In fact, it almost seems as if they took Disney's conceptualization of the Titans for D&D's Primordials from the movie Hercules (which I have issues with, being mythologically inaccurate).
Loved the movie, though... Meg's a hotty (even though she's way to skinny).
Anyhow, when you think Primordial, think Elemental Maelstrom Incarnate, definately on equal-footing to goods.
Basically, all the 'cosmic' entities come from two camps - the Astral, or the Elemental Maelstrom.
Seems kind of funny - they claimed in the Preview books that they wanted no more artifial polarity, and yet they split the universe right down the middle.
Its really tough to avoid in fantasy, though... not to mention the Real World - Newtons 2nd Law: For every action, there is always opposed an equal reaction.
Right - but Devils and Gods may very well be related to each other. I believe Devils are 'fallen' Solar now, or some such.
Basically, all the 'cosmic' entities come from two camps - the Astral, or the Elemental Maelstrom.
Seems kind of funny - they claimed in the Preview books that they wanted no more artifial polarity, and yet they split the universe right down the middle.
Its really tough to avoid in fantasy, though... not to mention the Real World - Newtons 2nd Law: For every action, there is always opposed an equal reaction.
Huh, I thought that was Newton's third.
It seems like one massive duality with a bunch of randomness there on down. The pictures are nice though:D
Yeah, all devils are now descended from angels that murdered their deity (not solars though, since I don't think they exist in 4e, wanting to avoid the stereotypical "good" angel look).
Don't forget, Asmodeus is now a god in his own right.
-Can't stand that.
-Can't stand that.
Foolish little mage, we will crush your soul...;)
Foolish little mage, we will crush your soul...;)
-Mmmhmm...:whatsthis
-Mmmhmm...:whatsthis
:surrender
-Can't stand that.
really, I like it
really, I like it
-Yes, I know. We've been through this before. I like the concept that powerful extraplanar entities exist, be them Archdevils, Demon Lords, Slaadi Lords, those powerful Eladrin, Primus, and so on.
-Yes, I know. We've been through this before. I like the concept that powerful extraplanar entities exist, be them Archdevils, Demon Lords, Slaadi Lords, those powerful Eladrin, Primus, and so on.
Primus..........is that band that sings the South Park or are you talking about Optimus Primus
And Merrick, you ignorant ****. His name is Optimus Prime, not Optimus Primus.
Primus..........is that band that sings the South Park or are you talking about Optimus Primus
-Primus the One and Primary. All shall fear him and dispair.
Primus..........is that band that sings the South Park or are you talking about Optimus Primus
You make me sad.
And Merrick, you ignorant ****. His name is Optimus Prime, not Optimus Primus.
no kidding. and its "merrik"
-Hmm...A stalemate. Call it a draw, and we're all good.
never. I am prepared to duel
never. I am prepared to duel
-Escef is in the Army. I wouldn't, if I were you.
-Escef is in the Army. I wouldn't, if I were you.
I believe I have challenged the GreenKnight
I believe I have challenged the GreenKnight
-Oh, good point. Well, he's one of my Hands. Want me to, like, shock him or something?
Personally, I think that being primordials suits them alot better, especially since their motives were always alien and nigh uncomprehensible (hard to really worship something that you dont understand in the least).
Oh, and Asmodeus as a deity ftw.
...(hard to really worship something that you dont understand in the least).
-This clause is present in virtually every religion found on Earth. That doesn't stop people from doing it.
-This clause is present in virtually every religion found on Earth. That doesn't stop people from doing it.
Perhaps in some religions, but certainly not all. I daresay if you ask most people that have a religion, they can give you a fairly specific doctrine on whats expected of them, and the general motives of their higher power.
But please dont bring RL into this. Im not gonna get into a ******* match over RL religion.
Perhaps in some religions, but certainly not all. I daresay if you ask most people that have a religion, they can give you a fairly specific doctrine on whats expected of them, and the general motives of their higher power.
But please dont bring RL into this. Im not gonna get into a ******* match over RL religion.
-Right, but which ones don't somewhere mention "the motives of G-d are foreign to us mortals"? Anyway, concerning the Elemental Lords, their worshippers have "a fairly specific doctrine on whats expected of them, and the general motives of their higher power". What's the problem? Personally speaking, deities should be somewhat alien, and unknowing.
-Right, but which ones don't somewhere mention "the motives of G-d are foreign to us mortals"? Anyway, concerning the Elemental Lords, their worshippers have "a fairly specific doctrine on whats expected of them, and the general motives of their higher power". What's the problem? Personally speaking, deities should be somewhat alien, and unknowing.
Since when in the Realms have the deities ever been "alien and unknowing"?
Mystra had chosen falling out of her ears it seemed, Cyric didnt think twice about interferring in mortal affairs (or sending avatars to murder mortals), hell, for a short time the gods lived (albeit forcefully) among mortals!
No, nearly all FR gods are very accessable, easy to understand the motives (or at least percieved motives) of, and are not afraid to approach mortals to deal with them (in one way or another).
I know that Kossuth and the other 3 elemental gods had dogma's listed, but I just found it funny that right before their dogma was listed, it (in this case F&P 3ed) said that they were mysterious, and alien, seeming to stand apart from time, unchanged.
But hey, just my opinion. Lot's of people liked them as gods, im sure. But I think its a real possibilty that in 4th ed, they will be primordials.
Since when in the Realms have the deities ever been "alien and unknowing"?
-Plenty of them. Akadi, Ghaunadaur, Grumbar, Jergal, Kossuth, Istishia...
-Being "real" and "active" as deities are doesn't...'negate' I guess is the word, being "alien and unknowing".
-For example: Teylas, the Tuigan name for Akadi, empowered Yamun Kahan and set off the Tuigan Horde into Kara-Tur and eastern Faerûn. Why?
-Plenty of them. Akadi, Ghaunadaur, Grumbar, Jergal, Kossuth, Istishia...
-Being "real" and "active" as deities are doesn't...'negate' I guess is the word, being "alien and unknowing".
-For example: Teylas, the Tuigan name for Akadi, empowered Yamun Kahan and set off the Tuigan Horde into Kara-Tur and eastern Faerûn. Why?
Ummmmm, isnt Akadi one of the Elemental lords? You know, the ones I said were alien and unknowing?;)
In fact 4 of the ones you listed were the elemental lords. Ghaunadaur is a rare exception in that he almost truly is alien (isnt he a slime???).
But your right. Jergal is the (or one of the) rare exception to the rule about mysterious motive deities who are not slimes or elemental in nature.
Ummmmm, isnt Akadi one of the Elemental lords? You know, the ones I said were alien and unknowing?;)
-Yes, but they are Faerûnian deities none the less, and are included in the "count".
Ghaunadaur is a rare exception in that he almost truly is alien (isnt he a slime???).
-If you ascribe to the theory that a deity is what it portrays itself as, then yes, he is a slime.
Jergal is the (or one of the) rare exception to the rule about mysterious motive deities who are not slimes or elemental in nature.
-The entire point I brought up real world religions not knowing the "motives of G-d" was to bring up the point that a deity can be widely known, worshiped, dare I say active, and so on and so on, and still be considered mysterious.
-Another example: Shar. Why does she do the things she does? And, with the secrets she keeps...
-Yes, but they are Faerûnian deities none the less, and are included in the "count".
-If you ascribe to the theory that a deity is what it portrays itself as, then yes, he is a slime.
-The entire point I brought up real world religions not knowing the "motives of G-d" was to bring up the point that a deity can be widely known, worshiped, dare I say active, and so on and so on, and still be considered mysterious.
-Another example: Shar. Why does she do the things she does? And, with the secrets she keeps...
1. Well, they used to be gods at least...still think they will be primordials.
2.I understand that a deity can change shapes at will, but sofar as I know Ghaunadaur is and always has been portrayed as a near unintelligble slime.
3.Yes Shar is secretive. But I think I covered that when I mentioned apparent motives in an earlier post.
4.Time for bed. Continues this tommarrow.;)
2.I understand that a deity can change shapes at will, but sofar as I know Ghaunadaur is and always has been portrayed as a near unintelligble slime.
-He's also portrayed as a Drow: Faiths and Pantheons. Possibly a Ghaundauran (a "slime doppelganger" type creature).
3.Yes Shar is secretive. But I think I covered that when I mentioned apparent motives in an earlier post.
-That's the crux of this entire debate, really.
4.Time for bed. Continues this tommarrow.;)
-Run! Run while you still can!
No, nearly all FR gods are very accessable, easy to understand the motives (or at least percieved motives) of, and are not afraid to approach mortals to deal with them (in one way or another).
Everyone has their own opinion about this, but according to the creator of the Realms, the deities of the Realms aren't supposed to be that transparent. I know that from reading "Ed's answers" on Candlekeep over the years. It's true that people know the basics of what the deities want, but "the gods work in mysterious ways" still applies in the setting, for better or for worse.
This sentence sounds so wrong in retrospect
Well Ghaunadar has clear desires. He likes people to willingly let him eat them . . .
This sentence sounds so wrong in retrospect
-He doesn't mind if they're unwilling, either. He's just hungry.
Everyone has their own opinion about this, but according to the creator of the Realms, the deities of the Realms aren't supposed to be that transparent. I know that from reading "Ed's answers" on Candlekeep over the years. It's true that people know the basics of what the deities want, but "the gods work in mysterious ways" still applies in the setting, for better or for worse.
you read those?
you read those?
-Doesn't everyone? Whoops, I guess not...
:P
-He doesn't mind if they're unwilling, either. He's just hungry.
He's kinda like Fatbastad from the Austin Powers movies, eh? ;)
"I'm gonna eatcha! Get in ma belly!" :P
-Doesn't everyone? Whoops, I guess not...
:P
I do occassionally but they can be hard to follow at times
He's kinda like Fatbastad from the Austin Powres movies, eh? ;)
"I'm gonna eatcha! Get in ma belly!" :P
-In a sentient, evil, extraplanar ooze kind of way.
I do occassionally but they can be hard to follow at times
-They're best when you are looking for a particular subject.
Ed's answers at candlekeep are what makes me respect him as a designer. He can make lore about anything and it usually is pretty good.
-Anyone who's serious about designing a setting should be able to create lore on just about any subject. The good thing about him being able to freely discuss that kind of stuff is because a huge portion of the nitty-gritty details that make a campaign setting really good is the kind of stuff that doesn't make it into the published sourcebooks.
-Anyone who's serious about designing a setting should be able to create lore on just about any subject. The good thing about him being able to freely discuss that kind of stuff is because a huge portion of the nitty-gritty details that make a campaign setting really good is the kind of stuff that doesn't make it into the published sourcebooks.
but toilets?
but toilets?
-Think about this: Someone asked him about that information. That makes me wonder...
you read those?
Ed's answers? Yes.
but toilets?
Well, civilized people need to go somewhere.:P
Ed's answers? Yes.
I think the Hooded One is making them up
I think the Hooded One is making them up
-Could theoretically be.
she is wearing a hood, why trust her
It's for skin protection. Back in medieval times, they didn't have UV protection sunscreen. Except for hoods. One must attend to the needs of beauty and fashion... wrinkly sun-damaged skin just won't do! ;)
she is wearing a hood, why trust her
-May players actually took the time to review the notes, and compile the data. 80% of the NPCs that I describe wearing black cloaks are evil. :embarrass
And he is based on Kakatal from the Melnibonean Mythos -
IIRC, Ed was rather fond of his 1st printing 1e Deities & Demigods manual. ;)
The Earth Elemental Lord was called Grome... see a pattern here? :P
I like the original version of FR elemental gods from Dragon 54
so I have Grome instead of Grumbar, but I don't have Straasha or Istishia for water, cause I don't like the name, it's Ix Pucyola from Mayan myths (they also had the four elements)
I don't have Kossuth too, cause it's too reminding of Hungarian revolution, instead of that it's unnamed enigmatic being (related to the Sleeping Ones in Elemental Plane of Ice) that is an incarnation of multiversal sun (in canon Selera of Beastlands)
I have #45, but then my collection skips ahead about a hundred issues.
Any chance I could get you to scan me over that particular article... please? :D
Dragon #54?!
I have #45, but then my collection skips ahead about a hundred issues.
Any chance I could get you to scan me over that particular article... please? :D
-I have that one...
-Escef is in the Army. I wouldn't, if I were you.
Fun fact. You learn just enough about hand-to-hand combat in the Army to get your butt whipped. (Unless you go into truly hardcore combatives.)
Fun fact. You learn just enough about hand-to-hand combat in the Army to get your butt whipped. (Unless you go into truly hardcore combatives.)
-Hmm...That's probably not something we should let everyone know...
Fun fact. You learn just enough about hand-to-hand combat in the Army to get your butt whipped. (Unless you go into truly hardcore combatives.)
I'm fairly confident you can kick my ***
-Hmm...That's probably not something we should let everyone know...
If the enemy gets close enough to you that you need it, then you obviously weren't doing your job very well.
Besides, everyone knows the army is just there to give the enemy something to shoot at while the Airforce and Navy bomb the ____ out of them. :P
If the enemy gets close enough to you that you need it, then you obviously weren't doing your job very well.
Besides, everyone knows the army is just there to give the enemy something to shoot at while the Airforce and Navy bomb the ____ out of them. :P
The Chairforce? Hah! Most of the aerial work being done these days is the Army and the Navy. And as far as the Navy is concerned, they sit in boxes out on the water miles from anything that even resembles conflict.
But I do feel bad for the Navy. They have to put up with the Marines. :P
My theory on Navy Basic Training
I theorize that half of basic training in the Navy is spent teaching recruits to not giggle like schoolgirls at the word "seaman".
The Navy's planes do a lot more these days then the Airforce's, I would imagine.
Plus Seals could eat Marines for lunch.
Hmmm... now that I think about what branch they are part of, they probably do.
Plus Seals could eat Marines for lunch.
I used to have an NCO who was a Marine at one point in time. He got hurt and was separated for medial reasons. You should have heard him talk. Apparently the only people who could hold a candle to the Marines were the Seals. And no one in the world could touch Marine Special Forces.
He was so full of
that his eyes were brown.