I was more curious as to what the point was with statting out deities... at least the 2e books just gave us avatar information.
My opinion(which I know may not regarded as well as others) would be that since I'm hearing that more and more Deities are becoming more involved in Fareun the designers of Wotc prob statted them for those who want to use them as NPC's in their adventures.
Or it could just be someones joke to see if they can make the people who don't like 4E already even more frustrated.
Or it could just be someones joke to see if they can make the people who don't like 4E already even more frustrated.
-Faiths and Pantheons came out long before 4e was a twinkle in anyone's eye.
Well... maybe Shar sent them a glimpse of the future so that the twist would be all the crueler. :D
-Maybe. She is multispheric and all, so...
My opinion(which I know may not regarded as well as others) would be that since I'm hearing that more and more Deities are becoming more involved in Fareun the designers of Wotc prob statted them for those who want to use them as NPC's in their adventures.
Or it could just be someones joke to see if they can make the people who don't like 4E already even more frustrated.
Except for your 4e interjection, yes, that was exactly it. After the ToT took place, that's when your first God stats came out--Faiths and Avatars.
Faiths and Pantheons was more or less a 3e revision.
I, for one, loved that there were stats. My character took on three different gods in a campaign and also dealt with several others (the church of Tempus completely destroyed my stronghold and all my followers at one point and I got the only revenge possible by rolling a 1 on an intimidation check towards him [2e rules]). Reaching power of such heights is extremely fun. ;)
Unfortunately, there seemed to be too many characters in the novels doing the same thing, so PC's evidently felt cheated by it.
Bring in 4e.
Unfortunately WotC then decided to cut the entire “Deities Dos and Dont’s” section from the book (this was later given out as a free web enhancement), leaving DMs with loads of stats, divinity descriptions and just about no guidance or advice on what to do with them.
This had to do with the Hasbro bean counter’s assumption that players -and not DMs- were the market. These guys further concluded that players only wanted crunch (rules) and very little fluff (story).
Thus, instead of DM’s being given a useful bit of advice on how to properly run the gods of the Realms and their mortal agents as direct or indirect antagonists and make sense of the stats given for the deities, Realms players got more Prestige Classes (that for the most part sucked) and all the Realms DMs were left with was loads of stats and not nearly as much fluffy info about the deities of the Realms as they should have got.
I, for one, loved that there were stats. My character took on three different gods in a campaign and also dealt with several others (the church of Tempus completely destroyed my stronghold and all my followers at one point and I got the only revenge possible by rolling a 1 on an intimidation check towards him [2e rules]). Reaching power of such heights is extremely fun. ;)
-How did it go?
-How did it go?
How did what go?
I, for one, loved that there were stats. My character took on three different gods in a campaign and also dealt with several others (the church of Tempus completely destroyed my stronghold and all my followers at one point and I got the only revenge possible by rolling a 1 on an intimidation check towards him [2e rules]). Reaching power of such heights is extremely fun. ;)
After playing in the Realms for about nine years, we're at this point in my Third Edition D&D Realms game too, and it's a blast. I have a lot of fun roleplaying the divinities of the Realms and their agents, and my players seem to enjoy tangling with the gods and putting them in their places (as best they can).
But this also leads to another point about the stats in F&P: My game took far long to get to the point where the deity stats became useful than the length of your typical D&D campaign.
WotC had to know this going in (their research and the statistics they gathered for the lead up to Third Edition were still relevant at the time F&P was published), but they went ahead and published the stats anyway.
-Messing with various deities, them getting angry and going after your characters, and all of that?
I CENSORED loved it.
It started off with Bane--who wasn't really a god at the time, but was looking to return (this was 2e at the time). I forget all the details, but my group uncovered the plot to bring him back. We discovered the truth almost too late and learned he had actually returned in power (not quite a god) and was on his way to kill Eliminster to complete his rise.
We raced to the scene, got there just as the battle began and helped El', Khelben and The Simbul take him on. I was a dwarven battlerager that had befriended Thibbledorf Pwent, so he had come along for the fun. He and I dealt with Bane up close while everyone else hit him from a distance.
We finally destroyed him, Shadowdale rejoiced and partied, then Eliminster slapped me in front of everyone for coming to save him from the death he had earlier divined and been welcoming.
After that, we learned that both Malar and Iyachtu Xvim had stakes in Banes return and were a bit P.O.ed at us. We had to kill them, as well.
After wiping out those three, worshipers of the fallen and imprisoned Garagos learned of our power and ability to kick divine ass and came to us in guise and lie for aid. Duped, we unwittingly released Garagos and a battle for the portfolio of god of war ensued. Huge battles took place (which we were generally a part of) and the church of Tempus was severally weakened. But, in the end, he managed to slay Garagos.
Angered at what I had done (and, yes, it was always me causing the trouble
) he sent his church against me next. Thousands of his followers surrounded my stronghold of about 500, then attacked. They killed everyone, including 5 out of 8 of our gaming group. Of the three, 1 survived because he ran in fear, 1 because he was a thief that could hide easily, and I, only because Eliminster dropped in and teleported me away before I could bull rush the twenty opponents that had surrounded me.We ended up in his tower and, while I screamed and ranted about him pulling me away from the battle, he told me someone was there to talk to me and spent 5 minutes calming me down. At that point, Tempus walked out of another room. Being the battlerager that I was, my first instinct was to fight the guy.
So, I say to my DM, "Intimidate. I say, 'I am going to CENSORED kill you.'"
He shook his head, told me to roll, and when that D20 dropped on one, the entire house blew up in shock and laughter for 5 minutes.
So, Eliminster jumped between Tempus and myself, screaming "Stop!" assuming I was going to do just what I said, and Tempus quickly stepped back wide-eyed reaching for his weapon.
Then, of course, became quickly angry with me.
Either way, a whole ultimatum thing occurred and he revealed he had my wife. I was either to swear fealty to him from that day forward or complete a certain task for him. I told him "CENSORED off," took the task, and then the campaign never got to finish....
---
(catches breath) Well, you did ask. ;)
Either way, my point is that high level PC's and gods can be extremely fun in a campaign.
And I'm all for stats, even if they don't include rules on how to handle certain things. It is a player's game, afterall.
But this also leads to another point about the stats in F&P: My game took far long to get to the point where the deity stats became useful than the length of your typical D&D campaign.
As in my long winded story to LK, the PC's can always get help. They can be 1st level and just "do their part" to help kill a god
I don't suggest this, as I think such a thing should be earned, but even 8th or 9th level is feasible. My character was 15th level when I went against Bane. And I was with three of the most powerful wizards in the Realms, a freaked out battlerager, and 7 other gamers with ranges of 13th to 18th level. Moving the chess pieces around, you could easily reduce levels to a degree and have the same outcome.
It’s interesting to me that your characters got duped into releasing Garagos. In my 3.5 Realms game, my players unleashed raw divine power in the midst of a battle between Orcus and Kiaransalee’s avatars over the ruins of Maermydra and even managed to keep both avatars from claiming that power (they banished one avatar and slew another), but they didn’t quite realize that the last avatar of Garagos was imprisoned nearby (I’d given them plenty of clues, but they still missed it) so Garagos got the power.
I think the characters were around 13th to 16th level at that time.
The plot you described that unfolded in your game, as well as what unfolded in my game, both I think point to the truth behind one of the more important lessons of the game (that was also described in the Faiths and Pantheons Web Enhancement I mentioned earlier): It’s all about scale.
Given the obvious power of the gods of the Realms, it follows most games that deal with the gods directly will be (in Third Edition Terms) Very High Level or Epic Level affairs. However, the DM can always use scaled down avatars, plot scenarios that weaken the gods (this is what I’m doing in my current 3.5 Epic Level Realms game) and lesser divine agents.
This allows us to involve lower level characters in the big-ish plots and use the the sweet spot in level progression for the 3.5 Rules system (approx. 10th to 14th, in my opinion).
If you need to resort to gods as foes, your DM isn't very good. I've had high-levels tortured by Kobolds! Know your monsters, and know how to use them. The #1 problem with the game today is that everyone is treating encounters like a bunch of stat-blocks, rather then living, breathing creatures. There's more to this game then dice-rolling and hit-points. Your DM should know your strengths, and play to your weaknesses. the answer isn't more powerful encounters, its more intelligent encounters.
If you'd rather strom Olympus and kill the Gods then save some peasants from an Ogre who's stealing all their food, thats fine, but then you need to find another DM. There's room for everyody in D&D - I just don't roll that way.
You can make points without being insulting to others' play styles.
And remember, if someone asks if you're a god, you say yes!
Whew, that was a close one.If you need to resort to gods as foes, your DM isn't very good.
Of course I hope you are assuming everyone is using the same definition of gods. I would guess you are also assuming they all depict them in the same manner, or that these gods all have the same metaphysical underpinnings, and play the same role in the setting. Lastly rather than insulting the assortment of individuals on this board who may have used gods in a game in the past, you might want to think positively for once and assume their players wanted it that way.
If you need to resort to gods as foes, your DM isn't very good.
The key word here being need, JD did not say that the only challenges left for his party were divinities only that gods were used and he enjoyed it. Misc's example follows the same lines. If a DM can conjure up a campaign that all parties enjoy than he has done his job. Now if he can't possibly manage it without using gods than maybe he needs experience but otherwise the skill of the DM is measured primarily by the amusement of the players. All other considerations are at the secondary.
That game you played in sounds like it was a lot of fun.
T’was. Holds the fondest memories of gaming for me.
It’s interesting to me that your characters got duped into releasing Garagos. In my 3.5 Realms game, my players unleashed raw divine power in the midst of a battle between Orcus and Kiaransalee’s avatars over the ruins of Maermydra and even managed to keep both avatars from claiming that power (they banished one avatar and slew another), but they didn’t quite realize that the last avatar of Garagos was imprisoned nearby (I’d given them plenty of clues, but they still missed it) so Garagos got the power.
Well, of course, there are more details involved that I left out to “try” and keep things a bit short. But, for the most part—and as I’ve stated in long gone past posts—we had eight players, with 3 DM/GM’s amongst us. By spoken agreement, we all respected the DM’s wishes on what we could read and couldn’t—so none of us had even obtained a knowledge that a Garagos existed to begin with.
This allows us to involve lower level characters in the big-ish plots and use the the sweet spot in level progression for the 3.5 Rules system (approx. 10th to 14th, in my opinion).
Indeed.
I had a 21 level PC ina non-D&D RPG years ago, and a multi-classed 18th Anti-Paladin/12th Bard in a D&D game, and never, EVER did we ever fight gods. A demon or two, and I remember one very ancient dragon that made us break a sweat, but no Gods.
Poor thing.
I would like to state that you also began playing this game and were ingrained in it far before the concept of the mortal slaying of a god was brought into it.
If you need to resort to gods as foes, your DM isn't very good. I've had high-levels tortured by Kobolds! Know your monsters, and know how to use them. The #1 problem with the game today is that everyone is treating encounters like a bunch of stat-blocks, rather then living, breathing creatures. There's more to this game then dice-rolling and hit-points. Your DM should know your strengths, and play to your weaknesses. the answer isn't more powerful encounters, its more intelligent encounters.
The DM I speak of remains now--and forever--one of the most intelligent people I’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting—and the number of people I view as “intelligent” is slim.
It’s not like we spent every campaign—and there were a few—going up with deities. I simply mentioned one.
And, as for being tortured by kobolds, the same character I speak of got his ass kicked by one at 13th level. And the same kobold continued to pop up and periodically to kick my ass by surprise until I was 17th or 18th level. (CENSORED hide in shadows!!
)Do I think gods should be used at every moment? No.
Do I think you lack some imagination—or intellect—if you choose to discount their use entirely? Yes.
Bejebuz bashing a bunny!! What did you do this time!!?
The key word here being need, JD did not say that the only challenges left for his party were divinities only that gods were used and he enjoyed it. Misc's example follows the same lines. If a DM can conjure up a campaign that all parties enjoy than he has done his job. Now if he can't possibly manage it without using gods than maybe he needs experience but otherwise the skill of the DM is measured primarily by the amusement of the players. All other considerations are at the secondary.
Thank you, kind sir…er, chick.
Just take of that CENSORED mask already, will you?
Thank you, kind sir…er, chick.
Just take of that CENSORED mask already, will you?
Sir is the appropriate choice, there. No relation to the lady in service to the Simbul.
The mask stays where it is.
I would like to state that you also began playing this game and were ingrained in it far before the concept of the mortal slaying of a god was brought into it.
1st Edition, First Printing Deities and Demigods, 1980 -
First and foremost, deities and divine beings are not merely super-powerful humans. The statistics given in this book can be of great aid to DMs, but they do not tell how a deity should be played. The Gods are not lists of armor classes, hit points, and attack forms; treating them as such reduces them to the role of mere monsters. They are, rather, beings whose very presence profoundly affects the course of events. many of them represent Elemental or natural forces that man can barely influence, let alone conquer. Introduction of a deity into active play in a game is a step that cannot be taken lightly. Players must understand who they are dealing with, and that improper behavior can bring swift and dire consequences.
Accent, mine.
Listen to the Gygax, for he is GOD. ;)
How, exactly, does a mortal 'fight' a god, when they are capable of instantly incinerating you where you stand?
You're right... I am as old as the hills. I remember when designers understood what 'gods' were, and didn't portray them as weaklings and children.
My apologies - those 'things' that call themselves 'gods' in FR are far from, and deserve killing.
How, exactly, does a mortal 'fight' a god, when they are capable of instantly incinerating you where you stand?
Meh. By that logic one is forced to wonder how a mere mortal fights a Dragon, any other mighty magical beast or skilled archmage since they all can incinerate an adventurer right where he or she stands.
As I have said and others have shown (JD best among them), the scope of the D&D game has changed and grown from the singular Gygaxian viewpoint.
Coupled with the advice found in the Deities Do’s and Don’t sidebar regrettably left out of Faiths and Pantheons, a Realms DM is given the choice of whether and how to use the deities of the Realms as protagonists in his or her game.
Some may balk at this -as is their right- but to smugly dismiss the concept out of conceit or spite is, shall we say...
:P
Heh, the Candlekeep.com forums must be slow right now.
I'm 'slumming' right now. :D
Occasionally I can still find a decent lore thread taking place around here.
But when someone talks about their 'god-killing', it just sets off my "avoid these people at all costs"-O-meter. I have to admit, it gets 'set-off' quite frequently at one of my LGS's, where the group of thirteen year olds running 1st-3rd level characters are over-running Menzoberranzan.
And yes.. I will admit they seem to be having fun.. the little b@#$%^&s. :P
Maybe I am getting too old for this game...
How, exactly, does a mortal 'fight' a god, when they are capable of instantly incinerating you where you stand?
:
It’s called powerful magic. Artifacts and such.
Not to mention a good story line that allows PC’s to accomplish something that would otherwise seem impossible to other “mortals.”
You're right... I am as old as the hills. I remember when designers understood what 'gods' were, and didn't portray them as weaklings and children.
My apologies - those 'things' that call themselves 'gods' in FR are far from, and deserve killing.
I can agree with this, based on what we have observed from previous novels. I think reading the the dialogue and interactions between them made them more mortalish than godlike.
I prefer Paul Kemp’s approach much more.
All the same, as we all say that the Realms are yours to do with as you want, your perception of this seems to have been ingrained by the novels and not your desired want.
As I have said and others have shown (JD best among them), the scope of the D&D game has changed and grown from the singular Gygaxian viewpoint.
Hot damn!! I knew I was the best at something!!
Now I can give up practicing at Pong! :D
What we know is that both primary authors and the developer of Faiths and Pantheons didn't want to include the god stats, but were instructed to by higher-ups in their 'crunch above all' phase. We never heard those higher-ups' position directly, and Eric, Erik and Sean didn't expouse it because they didn't agree with it.
As far as I am aware, the gentlemen you speak of weren’t even around when the initial stats were created. Once something is in motion….
But when someone talks about their 'god-killing', it just sets off my "avoid these people at all costs"-O-meter. I have to admit, it gets 'set-off' quite frequently at one of my LGS's, where the group of thirteen year olds running 1st-3rd level characters are over-running Menzoberranzan.
If it was that easy, I’d be rid off you buttcake.
All the same, I’ve made it a point that this isn’t something that should be done at a lower level. The campaign needs to be EPIC—with a proper story line, reason and luck.
Your example of 13 year old's going ga-ga is testament.
Maybe I am getting too old for this game...
Indeed. When you begin closing your mind to all possibilities, then you’ve hit the senior level. ;)
I'm 'slumming' right now. :D
Occasionally I can still find a decent lore thread taking place around here.
But when someone talks about their 'god-killing', it just sets off my "avoid these people at all costs"-O-meter. I have to admit, it gets 'set-off' quite frequently at one of my LGS's, where the group of thirteen year olds running 1st-3rd level characters are over-running Menzoberranzan.
And yes.. I will admit they seem to be having fun.. the little b@#$%^&s. :P
Maybe I am getting too old for this game...
MT, I'm assuming (judging from your responses) that you accept for better or worse the way the FR Pantheon is for now(I'm not saying that you like every god that's there just that you accept the fact that they are gods) right?
Well based on a thread around here that had a list of gods who were once mortals doesn't it make your opinion on DM's who create God Killing adventure a little hypocritical?(:thinks
I also want you to know that in no way am I aiming this as a personal attack on you. And I hope you don't feel as such.;)
As far as I am aware, the gentlemen you speak of weren’t even around when the initial stats were created. Once something is in motion….
That's news to me -- what happened?
MT, I'm assuming (judging from your responses) that you accept for better or worse the way the FR Pantheon is for now(I'm not saying that you like every god that's there just that you accept the fact that they are gods) right?
This part I get - and yes, believe it or not, I do except every iteration of FR's pantheon, including the 4e one.
I never complained about the pruning of the gods (except, perhaps, in the case of Eilistraee
), what I complained about was the rather poor way in which they were killed off.So yeah, I except that the official gods are indeed 'gods', but this is what I'm having trouble following -
Well based on a thread around here that had a list of gods who were once mortals doesn't it make your opinion on DM's who create God Killing adventure a little hypocritical?
You win today's 'Pretzle Logic' trophy. Usually I award it to myself (just ask LK how much I deserve it :D ), but I think I may have been out-done here.
What thread, and what list? Are you saying that the existance of ascended mortals in canon somehow makes me a hypocrit?
Truly, I am just not following you here, dude...
I also want you to know that in no way am I aiming this as a personal attack on you. And I hope you don't feel as such.;)
I never take offense (well.. almost never.. :embarrass ). I'm Irish - that means I believe in having a fistfight with someone, and then going drinking with them immediately afterwards. If Irishmen held grudges, we wouldn't get any decent drinking done (and it IS a national pastime).
Indeed. When you begin closing your mind to all possibilities, then you’ve hit the senior level. ;)
I apologize to you, personally (but no one else
).How is it you are such a buttwad 97% of the time, and the other 3% you are actually helpful and informative?
Hey!!!! You're Me!!! :D
Just kidding... I shouldn't lump people together like that - I am sure there are plenty of great games going on out there with god-slaying involved. I've just been witness to my share of crappy ones, sadly enough.
I've always said that the only thing I'm intolerant of is intolerance, and you just called me to task - nice job.
Theres a thread around here called "Gods who were once mortal or something similar"
I know that you personally don't roll with this type of adventure. And if I took your post out of context then i do apologise. I am only a Manthingy and can only function when Judge gives me my Chocolate Milk
(though i think he's been spiking it with Bailey's lately)Most of those 'ascended mortal' scenarios took place in the distant past, except for the ones that occurred during the ToT... but thats fuel for another flame-thread.
While I am all for the setting containing these kinds of stories (in the PAST!), I do not like to see them in-game.
I could see them as a campaign-ender. If I were running the party that contained the mortals Bhaal, Myrkul, and Bane, and they achieved their godhood, that would be the culmination of the campaign and they would become NPCs in any future campaign I set in the Realms.
However, the thing I find 'disturbing' is the trend for many DMs to have their players characters achieve levels at an incredible rate, and then be stuck with using gods as monsters, because no-one else can possibly challenge them.
That, to me, is a case of bad-DMing. I'm sure some folks will take offense again, and make claims that "their groupis having fun that way". I've seen groups have a great time raiding Olympus, and mopping-up Valhalla as an after-thought...
But what is it they are accomplishing, really?
Sure it's a game... but if a party 'needs' to kill gods to make themselves feel good, then we have an underlying problem that borders on RW psychology. This 'lashing out' at beings perceived to be "holding them back" is VERY adolescent.
Its been my experience that these kinds of groups would prefer raiding a town and looting it, rather then helping the town against raiders. There is a 'need' to be 'top dog' at all times, and unfortunately the NEW D&D caters to these kinds of groups better then the last two editions did.
It is this sort of mentality that lead to FR losing most of its gods, its Chosen, and all of it's high-level 'good guys'.
Now, by the same token, Dookie managed to point out to me my own short-sightedness. There are groups out there who's DMs are very good, and can harrass a high-level party with a Kobold, and still run them through a campaign-arc to kill a god, and do so with aplumb.
I allowed my own... derision... for 'ToT" scenarios to make me lose sight of alternate possibilities - Alias and Dragonbait, for instance. I had no problem with the whole 'Killing Moander' thing, because it took place on the Prime Material, effected little of the setting, and the main players didn't need to 'storm the heavens' to accomplish their goals. I could see myself using just such a scenerio - in fact, I ran Temple of Elemental Evil at least twice in GH, and once in FR... and Lolth is involved in that.
So I was going the 'Black & White" route, when I should realize by now there are thousands of 'shades of grey', and everyone plays differently.
See? You can teach an old dog new tricks... WOOF!
That's news to me -- what happened?
Sort of my point. If something did, then what?
Truly, I am just not following you here, dude...
He’s still just getting the feeling of things.
I have a feeling he’ll be a hybrid of insanity and stupidity, but he’ll get there… and hopefully with the proper clarity.
"Unfortunately," is my immediate thought.
I never take offense (well.. almost never.. :embarrass ). I'm Irish - that means I believe in having a fistfight with someone, and then going drinking with them immediately afterwards. If Irishmen held grudges, we wouldn't get any decent drinking done (and it IS a national pastime).
I apologize to you, personally (but no one else
How is it you are such a buttwad 97% of the time, and the other 3% you are actually helpful and informative?
Hey!!!! You're Me!!! :D
Just kidding... I shouldn't lump people together like that - I am sure there are plenty of great games going on out there with god-slaying involved. I've just been witness to my share of crappy ones, sadly enough.
I've always said that the only thing I'm intolerant of is intolerance, and you just called me to task - nice job.
That explains it—another CENSORED Irish CENSORED.
So much for being the only one around here—and a good excuse for you, I do say. Otherwise, we might end up killing each other.
Guinness, my man!?
CENSORED all these non-Irish pricks.
---
BTW...No offense to you non-Irish pricks, but you're just not pricks that are Irish. :D
I was quite fond of it back in the day, but alas, I haven't had a good drink in some time.
I think my Ex got my liver in the settlement... she got everything else...
I think my Ex got my liver in the settlement... she got everything else...
Hey no liver=no consequences
Isn't the holiday that irishmen came up with so everyone can partake in you guyziz pnational pastime coming up?
@ least you're not like me (English-Chinese cursed with bad teeth and a small ---is)
You can't just drink Guiness... you have to LIKE it. :D
I was quite fond of it back in the day, but alas, I haven't had a good drink in some time.
I think my Ex got my liver in the settlement... she got everything else...
No. You have to LOVE it, you slacker!
I think my Ex got my liver in the settlement... she got everything else...
Obviously, due to the Guinness.
@ least you're not like me (English-Chinese cursed with bad teeth and a small ---is)
Dude! Shut the CENSORED up!! Do you understand what you are saying?
-Back on track, come on.
As you and I discussed the issue of liquor in the equation of deitific power, I believe this is completely on track.
I mean, Guinness is the drink of the gods and such.
As you and I discussed the issue of liquor in the equation of deitific power, I believe this is completely on track.
I mean, Guinness is the drink of the gods and such.
-This isn't a discussion about determining equations to determine the relative power levels of deities.
.Back on topic though. I never really cared for "gods" being a part of adventuring because a player has far to many other more powerful foes they can contend with. Not that i ever looked down on DM's or players that did have those adventures. Maybe it was more "jealousy " because my characters never lasted that long
-This isn't a discussion about determining equations to determine the relative power levels of deities.
Are you trying to tell me that a god can't have a "Down Guinness" feat? Or, "Snort All Guinness in Sight" power?
Of course I know what i'm saying. I'm making fun of M+E = ME. If you can't have a little humor about yourself then you can't joke around with anyone else
Back on topic though. I never really cared for "gods" being a part of adventuring because a player has far to many other more powerful foes they can contend with. Not that i ever looked down on DM's or players that did have those adventures. Maybe it was more "jealousy " because my characters never lasted that long
It's all up to the DM and how he/she plots, plans and plays. I managed to get a CENSORED battlerager to 20th level.
That only happens when a DM creates a story around the characters--not simply one he/she finds entertaining to oneself.