It is relevant to several of the Living Realms adventures, so I am curious as to what the answer is to this one....
Still are, for the most part, but most of the population has at least a touch of shadow in them. They also have a large population of Shadar-Kai. And they are ruled over by the Shades.
The FR Campaign Guide and FR Player's Guide both neglect to make any mention whatsoever of what race the Netheril kingdom is made up of, or what race is most dominant in the power structure of that kingdom. Humans perhaps?
It is relevant to several of the Living Realms adventures, so I am curious as to what the answer is to this one....
It is very well stated that the Netherise are human.
They WERE human.
Still are, for the most part, but most of the population has at least a touch of shadow in them. They also have a large population of Shadar-Kai. And they are ruled over by the Shades.
Very few are actually touched by shadow--as it is reserved for the most elite (or most useful).
Netheril is a human nation with a small percentage of Shade.
Imaskar>Netheril
ya. Don't forget the Deep Imaskar are beleived to be the decendents of the surviving Netheril.
Huh? Wha? No way.
Deep Imaskari are decendants of Imaskar...
Imaskar went down before Netheril...and they also saw their height of power before Netheril did.
Netheril= floating enclaves with powerful arcaninsts with one legendary mage who slew orcs by the hordes
Imaskari= slave driving planar travelers
Netheril= floating enclaves with powerful arcaninsts with one legendary mage who slew orcs by the hordes
hehe so agree?
Imaskar>Netheril?
They are distantly related to the Tunlanders, the barbarians of The Ride, and even the Nar, and are closely related to the Renhardt(sp?) Barabarians of the north (who are a mixture of Netherease and Uthgardt, IIRC).
Human, of a Slavic-like stock (dark hair and features), as opposed to the other, fairer, barbarians operating throughout the north around the same time (the Illuskans, and their brethren, the Reghedmen).
ya. Don't forget the Deep Imaskar are beleived to be the decendents of the surviving Netheril.
-No. The Deep Imaskari are the descendants of Imaskar, not Netheril.
-And, in some ways, the Imaskari were > than the Netherese, but in plenty of other ways, the Netherese were > than the Imaskari.
duely chastized. Where did I read it..? that's gona bug me. Guess it makes sense... :embarrass
-Don't worry about it.
What about the general alignment of a Netherese? From what the books make them out to be, they're all scheming, power hungry, Shar-worshiping arcanists out to subjugate all of Faerun.
-The Netherese, as a whole, were probably LN, or TN. Or, 'Unaligned'. Netherese society, as a whole, was very nonreligious. Not atheistic, but nonreligious. Deities weren't superthings, they were entities that were on levels that Arcanists could eventually reach. Case in point, my tripartite self.
-Remember, for the most part, the books only illuminate Shadovar society, not Netherese society.
So there could be Good or even Lawful Good Netherese?
-Yes. There were many, across the years.
And what's the difference between the Shadovar and Netheril in general.
-The Shade Enclave was just one city, of many.
Are the Shadovar the ruling class or something?
-No. Shadovar are to Netheril what Floridians are to the United States. They're a bunch of citizens from one place, one part of the total.
-At this point, I'd advise you, if you haven't, to download the Netheril: Empire of Magic box set. It's free from the WotC website.
So what would be the attitude and belief system of the average Netherese citizen?
What edition is it?
-It was 2e.
So what would be the attitude and belief system of the average Netherese citizen?
-Depends on how you want to define the average Netherese citizen. For the sake of expediency, let's use the ones that got the most air time: The Arcanists from High Netheril. As I said before, the majority of Netherese had attitudes similar to the Athar- they knew that deities were real, but, they did not believe that deities were inherently 'higher beings' than mortal men. They simply were akin to mortal men with more power. Thus, if a mortal man could accrue more power, he could become a deity. And, for the most part, they were right.
(also Elven propaganda - they can't stand anyone else who can do magic)
'New Netheril' (just the sound of that makes me ill) is composed primarily of the Shadovar, and the Shade Enclave was pretty evil, so the newer version is pretty much all evil becaue of where they come from.
If Selunarra (sp?) ever returns, that may change.
Edit:
Halruaans were technically Netherease, and they weren't evil.
Thats porobably why they got 'blowded up'.
So essentially no Good or Lawful Good Netherese paladin for me?
-If you want one, there can easily be.
What could justify it though?
-A paladin of Selune has left Selunarra, sent on a mission by Selune to "clean up" the new 'Netheril'. Simple to do. A Shadovar citizen realizes that the emptiness that he/she thought that Shar was supposed to fill isn't cutting it, and has an epiphany- In becoming a LG character, saved by [Insert Deity], he/she feels the need to convert as many of his/her brothers/sisters as possible. There you go.
Where in Netheril is it? I'm looking at the map of Netheril in the FRPG and I can't find Selunarra on it.
It was not far from the moon temple, i forget its name.
the key word is WAS , as Lord Karsus mentioned it is now in the gates of the moon, Selune divine domain.
and i must repeat, if you have not downloaded the empire of magic download, then download it.
and its not in the frpg, any of them
check lost empires of faerun, and maybe grand histories of the realms, assuming you have them.
Nope. I don't have either of those.
-At the very least, you need AGHotR. It's, like, the Forgotten Realms bible. Hmm...Expect a PM from me.
-Wasn't me...
:
Or was that Nether-eaze...
Netherease was also the name of a type of magical trans-planar grease, used to lubricate portals, making it easier to slip in and out of the 'Nether'. :D
Or was that Nether-eaze...
-It was Nethergrease.
-It was Nethergrease.
I just bought some of that for my girlfriend in "His and Hers" is much better than vaseline cuz is water based and it sqee.....What?
O...kay...
I heard that the Shades are the Realm's version of the Shadar-Kai. Is this true? I was curious about playing one of Netheril's ruling class, but I thought Shade was a seperate humanoid type that hadn't been statted yet.
Shadar-Kai are in the realms too (Many tied to the returned city of shade). Shades are a separate type and they have not been stated yet to my knowledge...
You could always play a Shadar-Kai as a shade until shade stats come.
Dark Ones are humans descended from Netherese.
It would have been very simple to say that the Shades are FR's version of the Shadar-Kai, but nooooooo....
Rather then go for the simple explanation and have done with it, they made them two seperate groups and their relationship over-complicated. For a system that is striving for simplicity, it appears it goes out of it's way sometimes to confuse people.
Especially where FR is concerned.
I heard that the Shades are the Realm's version of the Shadar-Kai. Is this true? I was curious about playing one of Netheril's ruling class, but I thought Shade was a seperate humanoid type that hadn't been statted yet.
-Nope, not true. In 3e (and before), Shadar-Kai were Fey creatures. In 4e, now they're Human creatures. Or maybe I have it backwards. But, either way, that point of contention from old to new differentiated the two.
-Shades also are created, not born (the ones in the Shade Enclave, anyway). Ordinary Humans going through a magical process, and become Shades. Shadar-Kai, they are born.
-Separate groups of Shadar-Kai exist in the Underdark city of Chaulssin, and I wouldn't be surprised if they can also be found in the ruins of Tilverton.
-No. New Yorkers are Americans. Not all Americans are New Yorkers, though.
-With that hopefully cleared up, yes, the Shades are the ruling caste of the Shade Enclave. By proxy, they are the rulers of their refounded nation of Netheril.
And shades have yet to be statted out, either as a race or a monster?
-In 4e? Yeah, I believe. I don't play 4e, though, so if some new book came out and had their stats, I wouldn't know. In 3e? Their stats were in the FRCS, and Races of Faerûn.
-Don't mind me. :P
;) :P
I look at it this way - People from the Shade enclave are Shadovar (just like an Elf or Dwarf would be a Zhent if they were from Zhentil Keep). Thats canon - it's not a race, but a geographic distinction.
Shades are the ruling elite - the Wizards that underwent a process that combined their 'life-stuff' with Shadow, giving them strange powers and making them just plain creepy. This means a Shadovar who excels at magic can become a Shade. It also means that someone who DOESN'T live in the Shade enclave can become a Shade, simply by performing the same ritual (and those, too, exist in canon).
Shadar-Kai USED TO BE Fey; before that they use to be Shadow Elves (and since Elves are related to Fey, that was realy no big deal). They became human in the 4e rules.
My explanation - The Shadar-Kai were a group Fey (Elves) that escaped into Shadowfel from Tintageer, rather then to Toril. I'm sure several other groups managed to escape besides the one Elaine highlighted in her wonderful novel.
That was nearly 27,000 years ago!!!
Since that time, other races 'wandered' (or were trapped, or imprisoned, etc...) into the Shadowfel, and over the years interbread with the Shadar-Kai Elves. Eventually, you wound up with a very distinctive group that are racially half-Elves. They might have still considered themselves Elves, but other Elves might not.
Now enter the Shades in -339 DR, some 25,000 years later (thats a HELLUVA longtime). being who they are, they look around and note the Shadar-Kai civilization, and immediately begin taking over, subjucating all of them and anyone (or thing) else they can find. I'm sure some Shadar-Kai escaped enslavement (perhaps that group that made it into Ravenloft?), but for the most part, The Shades assimilated the Shadar-Kai 'nation' and culture into their own.
Now, almost 2000 years later, The Shadar-Kai have interbread even more so with the humans of the Shade Enclave, probably along with other groups living in the Shadowfel. Add to that that the plane changes people over time, and what you are left with is a group of 'humans' that have some Fey/Elven blood WAY BACK in their bloodline, but have now become mostly human, and are considered so.
That doesn't preclude the existance of some more 'Elven-looking' ones, perhaps born from time to time amongst the Shades, or even seperate (wild?) groups living in the Shadowfel (its an AWFULLY BIG place, so you could have hundreds of tribes that the Shades are unaware of, or don't bother with).
So 'Shadar-Kai' could very well be similar to 'Shadovar', in that it just denotes where these people live (within the Shadowfel), and not really have much bearing on their exact race (which has become muddled).
Shadar-kai do not have to be connected with Shadovar or Shades, though. They are mainly a result of influence from Shadowfell and there are communities of Shadar-kai that reside in Underdark.
They kind of made them like the Krinth...
Also a sidenote...It mentions that it is possible to be transformed into a Shadar-Kai via ritual just like it a ritual can be used to become a Shade.
why is Hadrhune an elf? was that explained somewhere?
-He might not have been. There's some conflict.
-If I remember correctly, his stats in the FRCS didn't mention him having en Elven nature. There are two possible reasons. Either, (A) the information in the FRCS was written without that little "spoiler" being known to the writers, or, (B) the Shadovar were lying to Galaeron, and saying that Hadrhune was an Elf, to gain Galaeron's trust.
-In either case, it's a moot point now, anyway, so...
Shades
Shadar-Kai
Netherese Humans
Krinth
Bedine Humans
Other Human cultures
It is important to emphasize the inclusion of the Bedine, as Netheril subsumed all of Anauroch into its domain, and they now have largel abandoned they old ways and regard themselves as "civilized Netherese"
So would the general flavor of Netheril be similar to the Persian and Arab empires of the Middle East?
-No. Netheril has no real world analogue, by virtue of the fact that it was a magical empire, and magic, here, does not exist. The closest thing you'll get, and this is stretching it, would be Greece, in that it is a nation of loosely-to-moderately affiliated city-states.
-The Netheril: Empire of Magic box set gives the best glimpse into what Netherese society was like. Basically, every enclave was a city-state, run by the Arcanist who created the enclave. There were different laws, different religions, different "moods" on each.
I meant in terms of architecture or clothing.
-Again, there is no real analogue. They had magic. Hell, they built cities on floating pieces of magically sheared mountaintop. No other cultures that I can think of here had cities like that. Buildings defied gravity, and some were built out of things like crystal.
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this.But if wizards hold the most important position, long gowns and robes and hats are to be expected among all Shade enclave citizans who aspire to some respect.
-If you don't mind me asking, why?
I'm still very much a Realms newbie. I have the PDF sure, but that's a chronology, not a history. Other then that text and the FRPG, the only other experience I have with the Realms is through PC games, which I'm certain are riddled with innacuracies.
-Well, that's why we're here, I guess.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/11/19/
The point I'm trying to make is that the Realms is this massive, complex, awe-inspiring world and I feel bewildered by the sheer size and scope of it all, so much so that it feels almost impossible for me to get my bearings.
I'm a newbie too ( I started playing FR 2 years give or take). My advise is take a nation at a time. I started in Amn now I know quite alot. Now that the "lore flow" has slow to almost to a stop you'll catch up no prob
There people here will help you I am sure.
But surely my constant no-brainer questions must be getting annoying?
-As long as they're all in the proper threads, nope. ;)
-As long as they're all in the proper threads, nope. ;)
As the man said... keep it on topic and your questions not only are not the negative you consider them to be but they are a positive!
Why? Because they inspire discussion. People round here seem to be able to "discuss" the legs off a donkey, but to stay in practice it is always good to have new topics brought up or... and this is where your queries come in old topics brought up in a new way that might highlight a new point, or indicate a new way of looking at things. Both of these things, and more, will draw out more discussion and will add to the diversity of the board and community.
So keep posting! :D
It is harder to go about learning the info for all the cities which is why you pick and choose and in time your knowledge base grows. Nothing wrong with depth but it is best to look at smaller areas and expand outward from there.
Netheril as it is would be hard to describe. You have to take into account that its' evolving history. The destruction of Netheril happened a long long time ago and during that time it has been existing on the Plane of Shadow and now Shadowfell.
It would be best to look back to older material and try to visualize what the empire would have been like and then look at locales on shadowfell. From there you have to think about how the influence of Shadowfell has blended with them.
The touch of Shadowfell is woven through their culture as well as their bodies and emotions. Even the touch is causing weird births to happen. Not only have the people figured out how to merge themselves with the shadowstuff to become shades or shadar'kai but some are being born naturally (in regards to the shadar'kai and krinth.)
Two things will help you understand the current state. Netherese material and Shadow Plane(Shadowfell) material.
Well each city has history to it in the real world. Just popping up in a place would not make you know the history but if you do the work for a specific locale then you garner information.
It is harder to go about learning the info for all the cities which is why you pick and choose and in time your knowledge base grows. Nothing wrong with depth but it is best to look at smaller areas and expand outward from there.
Netheril as it is would be hard to describe. You have to take into account that its' evolving history. The destruction of Netheril happened a long long time ago and during that time it has been existing on the Plane of Shadow and now Shadowfell.
It would be best to look back to older material and try to visualize what the empire would have been like and then look at locales on shadowfell. From there you have to think about how the influence of Shadowfell has blended with them.
The touch of Shadowfell is woven through their culture as well as their bodies and emotions. Even the touch is causing weird births to happen. Not only have the people figured out how to merge themselves with the shadowstuff to become shades or shadar'kai but some are being born naturally (in regards to the shadar'kai and krinth.)
Two things will help you understand the current state. Netherese material and Shadow Plane(Shadowfell) material.
-Note: All of that, concerning the Plane of Shadow, is applicable to only the Shade Enclave. The rest of High Netheril, and Low Netheril (as well as the ill-fated Deep Netheril) had no ties to the Plane of Shadow.
-Note: All of that, concerning the Plane of Shadow, is applicable to only the Shade Enclave. The rest of High Netheril, and Low Netheril (as well as the ill-fated Deep Netheril) had no ties to the Plane of Shadow.
Yes the City of Shade. Not the Bedines or other people that were folded into the empire after the return of the City of Shade.
Like the Netherese considering Sembia Netheril, though the people are Sembian
-Well, that's a case of puppet dictatorship, or whatever.
-Well, that's a case of puppet dictatorship, or whatever.
But it is the same instance in regards to the Bedine people. The Shadovar are pretty much imposing their culture on others and their culture is a mix between ancient times and Shadowfell.
I am trying to think of some good instances that would describe the current its current state. Potential I still think the best bet would be referencing material on the Shadow Planes and check out cities within to see how they were influenced. Much of the same could also be done for locales in Shadowfell and its general nature that it seems to impose on places and people within.
The floating cities are wonders of magic and it would be a safe bet to say that magic is used as a tool within the city. So visitors could expect a darker foreboding place that makes use of magic to handle certain functions of running a city.
How does a magical floating city handle sewage for instance.
But it is the same instance in regards to the Bedine people. The Shadovar are pretty much imposing their culture on others and their culture is a mix between ancient times and Shadowfell.
-The Bedine are their own culture. Since the Shadovar have come back, we've been told that they're resisting the efforts of the Shadovar to control all of the Anauroch Desert.
How does a magical floating city handle sewage for instance.
-I think we all know the answer to that one. And, it's not pretty.
-The Bedine are their own culture. Since the Shadovar have come back, we've been told that they're resisting the efforts of the Shadovar to control all of the Anauroch Desert.
-I think we all know the answer to that one. And, it's not pretty.
Are the Netherese the first to widely use their cities sewage for bio-warfare against the cities that are below them?
The Bedine that resist are the Sand Kings...the fringe of the society. I think the majority have been forcefully integrated though.
Four cities of Netheril are mainly populated by people of Bedine who have mostly forgotten their nomadic ways.
-I think we all know the answer to that one. And, it's not pretty.
Lets just drop it... euh that subject.
Are the Netherese the first to widely use their cities sewage for bio-warfare against the cities that are below them?
-The Imaskari probably engaged in "bio warfare", via portals or some such.
The Netheril are humans, secondary population would be all manner of summoned creatures, whatever you like. I would compare the nation to ancient Rome. And no, the Neths don't resemble the Bedines. I would say they'd be more fair-skinned and fair-haired than the dark and tanned people of the desert.
And no, the Neths don't resemble the Bedines. I would say they'd be more fair-skinned and fair-haired than the dark and tanned people of the desert.
Well, according to Son of Thunder, the Netherese were generally of the dark-haired and dark-eyed sort.
Well, according to Son of Thunder, the Netherese were generally of the dark-haired and dark-eyed sort.
YAHOO!!!! Netherese are latinos !!!!!
YAHOO!!!! Netherese are latinos !!!!!
-So.......let me guess you want to be a "Shade" now huh? :P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :evillaugh
You KNOW I'm a devoted Tormite right?
-A Devoted Shade Termite? Well I will be darned! :D
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric)
-A Devoted Shade Termite? Well I will be darned! :D
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric)
I mean, you live in north mexico you should be happy.:P
I mean, you live in north mexico you should be happy.:P
-Pretty much. The little ladies that can hardly spaek any english drive me crazy!
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
-Pretty much. The little ladies that can hardly spaek any english drive me crazy!
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
I know the feeling friend, nothing like a girl calling you "Papi"
Edit: I'll Smite you!!!
YAHOO!!!! Netherese are latinos !!!!!
LOL.:D
The individual in question is "Rhaugilath the Ageless", who was an epic LG wizard/archmage (3rd edition stats, of course) that was the ruler of the Orbedal enclave of Netheril. His phylactary survived the fall of his city, only to be discovered by none other than Larloch the Shadow King, sometime apprentice to our own Lord Karsus.
This is in response to an earlier question about there being any good Netherese. Here is your proof that at least a few existed, but most were probably LN or LE (3rd edition designations, of course).
------
I'll just add one more archlich, since so few exist. Her name is Lady Saharel and her chosen abode is Saharelgard, also known as Spellgard. She was Netherese as well, which suggests that the Netherese might have mastered the technique and made it somewhat well known among the higher ranks.