What the hell is Forgotten Realms?
Yes, I know it's a campaign setting. I know it's home to some characters named Mystara and Elminster and a certain dark elf of some renown. I know it was created by Ed Greenwood, that it's the setting of some games I never played, and that there's a whole library of books about it and its denizens. None of that tells me what it is. What it's about.
Eberron, for example, I can sum up by saying 'a setting which treats arcane proliferation realistically, as expressed in a pulp adventure/noir style'. That conceptual uniqueness is what made me decide to take a look, and ultimately fall in love.
Forgotten Realms, on the other hand, reads like Generic Fantasy World (just as 3e Greyhawk and 4e PoL do) in everything that's trying to get me interested in it. For example, look at the 4e FRCG blurb on the main site:
WotC: wrote:
The Forgotten Realms was/is a highly detailed high magic setting with loads of history. It also contained/contains a lot of highly powerful NPC's, whom have been pushed aside after the Spellplague. Up until the Spellplague, there was a whole lot of stuff available about the current Realms, the Spellplague just chucked that out the window with some inconsistent (imo) events, such as removing Mystra, one of FR's iconic godesses, killing off lots of gods etc. This was apparently done because they wanted to dumb-down the Realms, once again IMHO.
Trying to sum up what makes it different from a homebrew game.
kewl but as a gamer years later I realized (for me) it was not very cool at all.
I think the current FR campaign setting will be a place where people are still fearful of magic even many years after the Spellplague which caused many problems. In the Realms a century before magicusers were supreme now it seems to be a more even playing field (thanks to 4E) and the people may not be too happy if a wizard or warlock strolls up to their town or village.
Like I said I don't know if the fear of magic is the main theme. I really don't know if 4E is going to be the same mish-mash that FR has always been since 2E or given a solid "theme".
Pre-D&D: Moonshae looks different, the great glacier is a lot bigger, no Vaasa or Damara, lots of other little stuff. The setting is pretty much the Dalelands, Sembia, Cormyr, and the the Savage Frontier. I'm a little sketchy on this overall, but it seems to be more traditional fantasy, and centered around Cormyr and the Dalelands.
1st Edition (1987):
Theme: Standard 1st edition, kind of rustic-feeling. It differs from Greyhawk in that it feels more cosmopolitan, with adventurers being more common. The PC's aren't necessarily the heros of the setting; it's more like an MMO in that there are thousands of other adventurers in the world. (Other than that it's nothing like an MMO) It's lower magic than later editions. Most NPCs are in the 1-12 level range, with a few (Elminster, etc) around 26-27. The main bad guys are the Zhentarim, but the Harpers aren't the only good guys that get attention
Notable Adventures (including video games): The gold box games (aka Ruins of Adventure and Curse of the Azure Bonds), the Bloodstone saga (H1-4), Raven's Bluff, Desert of Desolation (I3-5), others
Events: Kara-Tur is developed as an Oriental Adventures campaign attached to the original setting,
2nd Edition (1989):
Theme: Standard 2nd edition. It is the "core" setting of 2e. Empahsis is on the Harpers vs. the Zhentarim. One of the main themes is the ascension of Cyric and Midnight, and their opposition.
Adventures: Undermountain, Avatar trilogy, Marco Volo Trilogy, Baldur's Gate I&II, tons more
Events: The Time of Troubles changes the Pantheon slightly and is a thinly-veiled excuse for updating the rules to 2e. Introduction of Zakhara, Maztica, Netheril, the Weave, Halruua, Psionics, and other locations. It was a main planet of the Spelljammer setting. The "mongol" invasion. Zhentil Keep is mostly destroyed. Drow become extremely popular.
The release of the Interactive Atlas maps out the whole world, although there are a few continents that will never be detailed.
3rd Edition (2000):
Theme: MAGIC. Enough magic to make detect magic make your eyes bleed (not really, but you get the point). The main focus is on Shar vs Mystra. Drow also get a lot of attention. The NPCs get a lot higher level with the new 3e multiclassing and epic level rules.
Adventures: City of the Spider Queen, Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch trilogy, Shadows of Undrentide/Hordes of the Underdark
Events: "Realms Shattering Events" become so common they get called RSE's. Among them are: the dracorage, the return of Netheril, and the shadow weave.
By this point practically every square inch of Faerun is intricately detailed. People complain that there are hundreds of deities in the pantheon (actually dozens of pantheons), too many NPCs are epic level and prevent the PCs from making any meaningful impact on the world, RSEs are too common and are difficult to implement into existing campaigns, the book Serpent Kingdoms enables the creation of Pun-Pun (a 5th level character that has infinite stats in EVERYTHING), and that it takes weeks and hundreds of dollars for DMs to spin up enough to run a game in the setting (which IMO is rubbish; all you need is a CS from any edition unless you're obsessed with being canon, aka playing the "one true game").
Meanwhile, in D&D in general, many DMs and players were also complaining about powergamers around this time, and balance became an obsession because 11th level PCs were taking on 20th level threats without breaking a sweat. Oddly, DMs also complain that the epic NPCs are unoptimized and poorly built (such as, why didn't Elminster take more PrCs? He qualifies for Mystic Theurge and as one of Mystra's chosen it might fit in fine. And no loremaster levels? What kind of sage is he?).
So the designers decided it was time to clean house with 4e and reset the realms.
4th edition (2008):
Theme: Points of Light. FR is the "core" campaign of 4e D&D.
Adventures: There are a few slated.
Events: Basically they threw a monkey wrench in the status quo by killing off all the epic NPCs except Elminster, who they drove insane. Then they introduced the Spellplague, killed off most of the pantheon, got rid of Maztica and Zakhara's extra baggage (not sure if they axed Kara-Tur too, but probably), they put an aboleth kingdom on the surface, destroyed a whole bunch of cities (and a few kingdoms too), and to quote someone from the boards, "Kewl! Evil totally hit Good on the head with its skateboard!".
They also got rid of many areas that were "uninteresting" to write for, which is a pity, because every corner of the realms has its fanbase.
This produced a LOT of anger among FR fans. Most of the anger comes from two sources: (1) their favorite things (a huge list) got removed while the biggest offenders of the "epic NPC problem" (Elminster and Drizz't) remain (although they did tone El down a lot), or (2) the seemingly contrived way that WotC scripted the edition change (Spellplague + the coming of Abeir + mass deicide) as a rapid series of RSEs instead of as a more realistic, gradual change.
They advanced the timeline 100 years to accommodate for all of this. To be honest, I don't know if 100 years is enough; maybe 500 to 1000 would have been better. So far there have been no points of light described, so we'll have to wait until it's released to see where the points of light are.
I've surprised myself by actually liking most of what I've seen so far, even though I'm not liking certain design intents of 4e (I'm one of the powergamers that I'm convinced they're trying to get rid of). Although the Vaasa excerpt didn't mention Castle Perilous or the events of the Bloodstone Saga. Overall, just as 4e can barely be called D&D, 4e FR appears to be so different that you can barely call it FR.
Sorry if I sound a little biased; I've tried not to be. Personally I prefer the 1987 gray box version of the realms using 3.5 rules.
That would be like me liking the gun that shot a loved one.
What I find facinating is that YOU are exactly the type of person they were targeting with this new 'vision' of FR, and you have seen right through their ruse.
Its a load of un-inspired dung.
The old FR was intersting because of all the milions of personal stories it held, about the lives of the people and how they interacted with their oftimes-harsh world. True, it is you basic generic fantasy fanfare, but it was the personal touch given to it by Ed Greenwood that brought it to life for many of us, and then later by designers like Steven Schend and authors like Elaine Cunningham.
The world itself isn't really so intersting - it was the people, and all their countries, and cults, and organizations, and hidden agendas.
Now that all of that is gone, you are quite correct - this is just a steaming pile of generic fantasy drivel.
It's true that Forgotten Realms does not tend towards an specific aspect or a 'variant' in classical sword & sorcery fantasy. So, it's not Eberron.
So in what does it differ from "core" D&D? Forgotten Realms has what core D&D hasn't. All the lore, all the maps, all the NPCs you don't want to imagine as a DM. You have a complete and consistent (though sometimes the designers seem to be looking for how to break it! No, it's a joke
there are some, but they are not truly intended) world in itself.Of course you have some things to do: you cannot present Fzoul Chembryl, the leader of the Zhentarim, against 1st-level PCs, but you can make an entire campaign, starting at the Dalelands, adventuring to the Moonsea and Zhentil Keep, fight against Zhentarim spies and soldiers to finally present a villain trained by Fzoul himself. Your players won't find problems of consistency, as you know that all things you put have some feedback in the lore of this world.
I think that's one of the main reasons I play (or played) in FR. As a personal note, and as an example, when I saw Complete Champion for the first time, I found its lore awfully simple and stupid because I used to see how things are in the Realms.
And one final note: To have a great lore behind doesn't mean it's difficult to learn or anything similar. If you stick to one zone, its completely easy to follow.
So that being said, I hardly care about the Spellplague either. Glad they did it (I guess) and personally think many people here get FAR too bent out of shape over it. To me FR is generic high fantasy world to help jump start a DMs work.
So I'm probably going to get called a noob or a philistine or any number of things for asking, but this is an honest question that I simply can't find an answer to.
What the hell is Forgotten Realms?
honestly, I don't recall
I bet this is interesting to people who already like the setting. It means nothing to me.
Actually, there are plenty of fans of the Realms who dislike the Spellplague (if that's what you are getting at with "interesting"). There are of course fans who do like it.
I'm not surprised it means nothing to you, as you have no previous investment (or interest?) in the setting at all.
So please, enlighten me. What's the draw? What's the point?
*shrug* I find it fun? Why are people interested in anything? If the setting doesn't speak to you, it doesn't speak to you. Are you trying to be interested in it? I'm not understanding what your point is, here.
honestly, I don't recall
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18DELTA ;)
-There is no metaplot in the Forgotten Realms, if that's what you are looking for. There is no unified theme, no overarching plot, no wider story.
And that's what makes it great - it's a huge sandbox where the DM decides the metaplot and PCs have considerable freedom.
And that's what makes it great - it's a huge sandbox where the DM decides the metaplot and PCs have considerable freedom.
-Yes, this is what allows it to not be..."cast typed", for a lack of better words. Dragonlance? Something about the War of the Lance. Planescape? Something about Sigil and the factions. Ravenloft? Some horror with the Dark Lords. The Forgotten Realms? Uh...Nothing.
The Forgotten Realms? Uh...Nothing.
Actually Lord Karsus, The Forgotten Realms strikes me more as an everything and anything. I mean if you can think it up, there is probably (due to the variety in locations and socio-politcal makeups) somewhere you can run it or tell it as a story. without being hamstrung by an overarching theme. There may be a lot going on at a local level but the Fog of War effect seems to be strong enough in the Realms to ignore anything overarching... should you want to. The Realms really can be whatever you want them to be, in the end ;).
If there is any unified theme, I guess it could be that power (particuarlly magical power) can take you to places beyond your wildest dreams yet if used irresponsibly or taken too far can have grave consequences.
-There is no metaplot in the Forgotten Realms, if that's what you are looking for. There is no unified theme, no overarching plot, no wider story.
Well, kinda. The way I see it, it's the RealmS; every region is unique and almost a different setting in its own right. You've got Unther and Mulhorand with their Old Empires feeling, you've got your Connan-esque barbarians vs mages (with a kind of a twist) with Thay and Rashemen - and its other neighbors, to a degree, you've got your traditional-ish high fantasy in the Northwest, the merchant princes and the age of exploration adventures with Amn and its colonies, etc, etc. It's an entire world, and home to many different creatures, peoples and cultures.
@XHereticX: yes, to a point. Then again, isn't that typical of most settings with high-powered (N)PCs?
@XHereticX: yes, to a point. Then again, isn't that typical of most settings with high-powered (N)PCs?
But that's the thing, none of the other settings really have an abundance of high-powered mages and mage civilizations constantly rising to godlike heights of power and then just toppling due to misuse. Dragonlance and Greyhawk had a few, but that wasen't really the point of either setting (DL being the WoTL and destiny, while Greyhawk was only supposed to serve as a gritty medieval setting. Mystara is more focused upon civilization itself as opposed to the individuals and magic and Dark Sun is more about conservation and ecology than power). The fact that Mystra herself constantly was falling due to perhaps her own hubris and the recklessness of the mages of Faerun attributes to this.
Faerun is nothing special, except that for me, that is what I want; a highly detailed fantasy setting that have no new elements like guns and trains (yes I know htere are guns, but well...Lantan isn't a world-power).
Actually Lord Karsus, The Forgotten Realms strikes me more as an everything and anything. I mean if you can think it up, there is probably (due to the variety in locations and socio-politcal makeups) somewhere you can run it or tell it as a story. without being hamstrung by an overarching theme. There may be a lot going on at a local level but the Fog of War effect seems to be strong enough in the Realms to ignore anything overarching... should you want to. The Realms really can be whatever you want them to be, in the end ;).
Well, kinda. The way I see it, it's the RealmS; every region is unique and almost a different setting in its own right. You've got Unther and Mulhorand with their Old Empires feeling, you've got your Connan-esque barbarians vs mages (with a kind of a twist) with Thay and Rashemen - and its other neighbors, to a degree, you've got your traditional-ish high fantasy in the Northwest, the merchant princes and the age of exploration adventures with Amn and its colonies, etc, etc. It's an entire world, and home to many different creatures, peoples and cultures.
-All of this reinforces what I was saying: There isn't a Metaplot, a metaplot being a world-wide plotline that everything feeds into, and in turn, is fed. The Forgotten Realms don't have one. What happens in Calimshan stays in Calimshan. It doesn't necessarily effect Turmish. And so on and so on.
-What happens in Calimshan stays in Calimshan.
kinda like Vegas, eh? Can I sig that?
-Exactly. Sure, go ahead.
"What happens in the Realms, doesn't neccessarily stay in the Realms"
I was making a joke out of the fact that a Realms-goddess died, and the ALL the planes in the multiverse re-aligned.
Funny how we used the same advertisement reference to make two completely different points about FR on the same day.
Weird... I just used a similar line earlier today at Paizo, whilst trying to explain why the Spellplague was so much more all-encompassing then the ToT -
"What happens in the Realms, doesn't neccessarily stay in the Realms"
I was making a joke out of the fact that a Realms-goddess died, and the ALL the planes in the multiverse re-aligned.
Funny how we used the same advertisement reference to make two completely different points about FR on the same day.
Since it only affected the new limited FR universe it still stayed in the realms.
The old D&D multiverse was already killed in 3.0e FRCS and thus going from 3.5e to 4e couldn't affect the multiverse
So I'm probably going to get called a noob or a philistine or any number of things for asking, but this is an honest question that I simply can't find an answer to.
What the hell is Forgotten Realms?
Actually, the Forgotten Realms in the name is a reference to the ancient empires that have long since fallen, leaving the world dotted heavily with ruins. The name of the setting is a reference to the massive numbers of ancient ruined places in empires long forgotten. It was a wonderous setting, before the publishers started letting every bloody author on their payroll start affecting the material they produced for the setting.
Actually, the Forgotten Realms in the name is a reference to the ancient empires that have long since fallen, leaving the world dotted heavily with ruins.
-Not exactly. According to the "story" of the setting, the things on Abeir-Toril were once strongly connected to Earth, via portals. But, for whatever reason, as time passed, the connection between Abeir-Toril and Earth grew weaker. Movement between these portals became less and less frequent, as the portals grew weaker and weaker, and less numerous in number. Eventually, the lands of Abeir-Toril grew forgotten to those living here on Earth, thus the Forgotten Realms.
-Have I ever mentioned that I dislike the entire "People on Faerûn visit Earth" shtick?