What the Sprick? *4E changes that you're just confused about*

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Charles_Phipps

Aug 25, 2008 15:18:33
This isn't about things that got you angry, more what just is a head scratcher to you.

Here's my list.

1. Ilmater back in the House of the Triad.

2. Tymora back in the company of Sune.

3. Beshaba in the service of Tempus.

4. Nobanion appearing in the Dragon Articles on the Realm then not appearing in the final product.

5. The Simbul, of all people, surviving over the other sisters. The most overpowered and invasive of all the Chosen.

6. Loviatar and Bane as consorts.

7. Assuran as Bane's new Bhaal.

8. Jergal, a god identical to Kelemvor in all appreciable ways, still is around.
#2

lord_karsus

Aug 25, 2008 15:21:59
9. Removing Mulhorand, Unther, Maztica, and other places deemed "unRealmsian", only to replace them with new additions that are "unRealmsian".

10. Removing the Weave, to accommodate the 4e magic system, as the Weave made this magic system impossible.

11. Not explaining the source of magic now that the Weave is no longer in existence.

12. Shifting various pantheons around, arbitrarily demoting certain deities while arbitrarily promoting certain deities.
#3

umbralknight

Aug 25, 2008 15:22:56
13. The inclusion of Zehir along with Sseth.

14. Why Zehir couldn't have been left as Set in FR.
#4

Thorvald_Grimbjorn

Aug 25, 2008 15:32:13
15. Why Cyric is still the god of madness, when he's already been cured.
#5

krownhunter07

Aug 25, 2008 15:32:29
16. The reason why Myth Drannor can't be connected to the Feywild.

I'll be working on a way to fix this in my game.

17. Why there was no mention of spellfire.

Hopefully this will be addressed in the players guide.

18. The lack of hints about Bladesingers...

I really would like to know about them soon. Again, I think (hope) this will be in the players guide.
#6

umbralknight

Aug 25, 2008 15:44:00
19. Why on Toril Fzoul gets a promotion to demigod after such a catastophic failure in management. Is it because of his villanous moustache? Is it that Bane just can't quit him?
#7

Charles_Phipps

Aug 25, 2008 15:45:11
19. Why on Toril Fzoul gets a promotion to demigod after such a catastophic failure in management. Is it because of his villanous moustache? Is it that Bane just can't quit him?

That's actually something I've always wondered about and I think ED GREENWOOD has commented, he's not actually sure why Fzoul keeps failing upwards. Ed himself has stated that Fzoul is one of the LEAST loyal priests in history and would gladly serve any other god as much as Bane.
#8

krownhunter07

Aug 25, 2008 15:47:02
Ehh, he is a useful tool and better serves Bane as an underling...
#9

umbralknight

Aug 25, 2008 15:48:41
That's actually something I've always wondered about and I think ED GREENWOOD has commented, he's not actually sure why Fzoul keeps failing upwards. Ed himself has stated that Fzoul is one of the LEAST loyal priests in history and would gladly serve any other god as much as Bane.

The only conclusion I can come to is that Bane has a soft spot in the ol' breastplate for his pet Tyrantling. And, as I said, maybe his villanous moustache gives him some preeminent status as a the setting's premier cliche villian.
#10

chaotic_blue

Aug 25, 2008 15:49:48
20. Returned Abeir

What, the Realms weren't large enough already? Did we really need a setting within a setting?
#11

vivianna_romanones

Aug 25, 2008 16:03:49
This isn't about things that got you angry, more what just is a head scratcher to you.

Here's my list.

1. Ilmater back in the House of the Triad

That doesn't bug me too much
2. Tymora back in the company of Sune.

That doesn't bother me; I'm guessing the subsumption of Hanali Celanil into Sune will bug more people. That doesn't really bother me, either (there's a whole thread lamenting the disapearance of the Seldarine, but really they made out better than most divine subsets). I can see the point, though, because Sheela Peryroyl survives, and thus some might say "why not Hanali?"
3. Beshaba in the service of Tempus.

I don't see the connection, either
4. Nobanion appearing in the Dragon Articles on the Realm then not appearing in the final product.

Who?
5. The Simbul, of all people, surviving over the other sisters. The most overpowered and invasive of all the Chosen.

She's my least favorite Sister, and possibly my least favorite Realms NPC period (I'd have to give more thought to it than I care to atm), so I agree. But I guess El needed a bedwarmer. :P
6. Loviatar and Bane as consorts.

I suppose I can see how that fits. Must be a very kinky relationship. Squick factor high?
8. Jergal, a god identical to Kelemvor in all appreciable ways, still is around.

Jergal was kept as Kelemvor's Exarch, so it makes sense that he's similar. He's not really a divinity in his own right anymore (unless one thinks Fzoul is now a divinity in his own right, since he's an Exarch as well). Exarchs are pretty much lackeys.

Some peeps posted some of mine (the various Realm Nukings...Returned Abeir...)

I'll add:

21) THE MAP CHANGES! >_< Why? Oh, dear sweet lord, why?
#12

romulus_lonewolf

Aug 25, 2008 16:15:11
That's actually something I've always wondered about and I think ED GREENWOOD has commented, he's not actually sure why Fzoul keeps failing upwards. Ed himself has stated that Fzoul is one of the LEAST loyal priests in history and would gladly serve any other god as much as Bane.

And that's why Bane wants to keep him as close to him as possible. To keep him where he can see him.
#13

karazhan

Aug 25, 2008 16:15:20
@krownhunter07,

I think the reason Myth Drannor is cut off from the Feywild is because one of their mythals special powers is to prevent planar travel and teleportation within its boundaries. The guide refers to this as a great strength and weakness (I believe as my guide is in another room).

To circumvent this, I would assume a ritual could be used to access the mythal and allow the creation of a single gate to the Feywild or key in a password to allow teleportation and planar travel. I believe in the Last Mythal series there were High Magic rituals that allowed the modification of mythal function.
#14

krownhunter07

Aug 25, 2008 16:21:21
Yeah, I read it, just didn't care for it as it stands. I was thinking a High Magic Ritual could be use to reconnect the two while maintaining the protection against planar travel.
#15

lord_karsus

Aug 25, 2008 17:03:56
I think the reason Myth Drannor is cut off from the Feywild is because one of their mythals special powers is to prevent planar travel and teleportation within its boundaries. The guide refers to this as a great strength and weakness (I believe as my guide is in another room).

-The Mythal, since being retuned, indeed has this quality. When the Mythal was hijacked by Malkizid and Sarya Dlardraegeth, it was changed to attract and summon Demons/Devils/Yugoloth. When it was repaired by Araevin Telshurr, he had to changed to do the exact opposite, to make these creatures leave the Prime Material Plane.
#16

notthefamouswizard

Aug 25, 2008 17:29:47
Jergal was kept as Kelemvor's Exarch, so it makes sense that he's similar. He's not really a divinity in his own right anymore (unless one thinks Fzoul is now a divinity in his own right, since he's an Exarch as well). Exarchs are pretty much lackeys.

Maybe they figured Jergal had an interesting enough backstory to warrant keeping him around as a footnote? (and it is fairly interesting as FR deities go) That and I suppose he's the closest thing around to a patron for god-worshipping necromancers now that Velsharoon's not around. Though that begs the question why the chose to keep Jergal around over Velsharoon. Is he still the god of dusk? If so they might have kept him around for some connection with the Lathander/Amaunator stuff.

Honestly though I have no idea on that one.
#17

gothwulfe

Aug 25, 2008 18:10:35
This isn't about things that got you angry, more what just is a head scratcher to you.

6. Loviatar and Bane as consorts.

Whats not to understand? The Maiden of Pain and the Lord of Tyranny ....sounds like a match made in S&M heaven to me *snicker*

Though....if you read Her Whipingness's dogma in F&P, She really doesnt sound like an evil god. "Pain makes you stronger, so don't fear it"...always sounded more neutral to me and only SEEN as evil because people fear pain and consider it a bad thing.
#18

naex

Aug 25, 2008 18:15:55
Maybe they figured Jergal had an interesting enough backstory to warrant keeping him around as a footnote? (and it is fairly interesting as FR deities go) That and I suppose he's the closest thing around to a patron for god-worshipping necromancers now that Velsharoon's not around. Though that begs the question why the chose to keep Jergal around over Velsharoon. Is he still the god of dusk? If so they might have kept him around for some connection with the Lathander/Amaunator stuff.

Honestly though I have no idea on that one.

They got rid of every god with a link to magic (except Cyric - who killed and subsumed Leira lady of the mists).
Hopefully so we can see the ascension of the new god/goddess of magic.
#19

gothwulfe

Aug 25, 2008 18:19:42
They got rid of every god with a link to magic (except Cyric - who killed and subsumed Leira lady of the mists).
Hopefully so we can see the ascension of the new god/goddess of magic.

Thats just what She wants you to think...Leira is still very much alive, which is why Denier has disappeared.
#20

fire_wraith

Aug 25, 2008 18:21:01
Hopefully so we can see the ascension of the new god/goddess of magic.

While I certainly think a new god of magic ought to arise, based on what they've said the designers seem pretty dead set against allowing a new one.
#21

corlain

Aug 25, 2008 18:58:10
22) Everything
#22

marius4

Aug 25, 2008 19:24:29
Beshaba and Tempus...I thought it was weird at first too, but then the combination of "war & misfortune" struck me as sort of...Shakespearean-tragic.

#) I thought it was odd that Talos was really Gruumsh, as opposed to the other way around. Guess that's just being humanocentric though. :P

PS (Go Leira!)
#23

JudgeDookie

Aug 25, 2008 19:32:06
Maybe they figured Jergal had an interesting enough backstory to warrant keeping him around as a footnote? (and it is fairly interesting as FR deities go)

Jergal is more or less the guy who has been around the block. Whereas Kelevmor is still relatively young. He's a close advisor to the throne.

And, yes, there is a lot of history with him worth having him stick around.
#24

Charles_Phipps

Aug 25, 2008 20:04:47
Well the current designers hate a God of Magic but there's always changes and we can hope for the future.
#25

naex

Aug 25, 2008 20:14:03
Well the current designers hate a God of Magic but there's always changes and we can hope for the future.

I don't think they hate the god of magic idea. IMO, they just needed time to let the current events play out, before introducing a new one, that way it isn't tied to the old regime, and they don't have to try to reintegrate the Weave.
A true god/goddess of magic this time. Rather than a referee of the Weave, who's very authority can be undermined by another god creating their own form of magic.

On topic - How does one country in Abeir have 1000's of dragons and not have a starvation issue? 800 in one city + 400 dragonetes.
#26

Kensan_Oni

Aug 25, 2008 20:18:28
20. Returned Abeir

What, the Realms weren't large enough already? Did we really need a setting within a setting?

Oh, that's easy enough. There are some people who have played the realms for years and years, and just need a new place to develop.

OR

It's a buffer zone for new DM's who end up with Realmites who just know everything, giving new DM's an even footing with old timers.
#27

JudgeDookie

Aug 25, 2008 20:22:18
On topic - How does one country in Abeir have 1000's of dragons and not have a starvation issue? 800 in one city + 400 dragonetes.

Thank you. Glad I'm not the only one that thought that was ignorant.

They evidently eat themselves or are vegan's.
#28

Charles_Phipps

Aug 25, 2008 20:38:34
Cattle!
#29

GreenKnight

Aug 25, 2008 20:47:52
Regarding Ilmater, Tymora, and Siamorphe, personally I'm glad they got reshuffled around. Ilmater in Brightwater and Tymora in the House of the Triad/Celestia was a waste. They fit in better where they belong. And while I would've preferred Siamorphe in Celestia, she fits in better in Eternal Sun. Certainly moreso than in Brightwater. I figured it'd be a month before both Ilmater and Siamorphe started clawing out their own eyes from hanging out in Brightwater. Looks like I was right.

Likewise, I can see keeping Jergal around. Here's what I found odd, though. The domains which contained one and only god. Cyric I can understand. But Lolth and Ghaunadaur? They could've easily have kept Kiaransalee and Selvetarm as Lesser Gods/Exarchs serving Lolth. Shame they didn't, as the Demonweb Pits seems pretty lonely. In addition, I thought for sure Ghaunadaur would've turned out to be a Primordial. His remaining a god seems strange to me. And if he was going to stay a god, then why not remain allied with Lolth in the Demonweb Pits?

Another thing I didn't understand was making Ilmater and Bahamut Good instead of Lawful Good. What was the purpose of that? Ilmater was Lawful Good in every prior edition, while Bahamut is Lawful Good in Core. I understand the reasons for making Corellon's alignment different from what it is in Core, but what reason is there to make Bahamut Good and not Lawful Good? Especially seeing as he's God of Justice. Not to mention that, because of that, there's a serious shortage of Lawful Good Lesser Gods. The count as it stands is as follows:

LAWFUL GOOD: 1 (Berronar Truesilver)
GOOD: 7
UNALIGNED: 2
EVIL: 5
CHAOTIC EVIL: 4

If they'd made Bahamut and Ilmater Lawful Good then the numbers would be like so:

LAWFUL GOOD: 3
GOOD: 5
UNALIGNED: 2
EVIL: 5
CHAOTIC EVIL: 4

And we'd have a little more variety, instead of having most of the weight on top of Good. Gets even worse when you get to the Exarchs, but at least there's some variety amongst all alignments at that level, unlike the Lesser God level, where there's just one and only one Lawful Good god.
#30

marius4

Aug 25, 2008 21:08:35
Jergal is more or less the guy who has been around the block. Whereas Kelevmor is still relatively young. He's a close advisor to the throne.

And, yes, there is a lot of history with him worth having him stick around.

To be fair, a lot of other deities had "history" as well, but I agree that Jergal seems strangely plain-yet-interesting and should be kept around.
Though....if you read Her Whipingness's dogma in F&P, She really doesnt sound like an evil god. "Pain makes you stronger, so don't fear it"...always sounded more neutral to me and only SEEN as evil because people fear pain and consider it a bad thing.

Have you read Maiden of Pain? It gives that impression of Loviatar even moreso. The Umberlee novel in the Priests series also discusses the "bright side" of worshiping that goddess. Maybe they were trying to answer "How could anybody sane worship this deity?" I kinda like you're description of a more neutral (but feared) Loviatar...and she could still be into all that kinky stuff too!
Thank you. Glad I'm not the only one that thought that was ignorant.

They evidently eat themselves or are vegan's.

They're vegetarian dragons! :P If that weren't so comic it'd be interesting to see how the realm worked! Didn't some 3x dragons eat gems and jewels and stuff?
Regarding Ilmater, Tymora, and Siamorphe, personally I'm glad they got reshuffled around. Ilmater in Brightwater and Tymora in the House of the Triad/Celestia was a waste. They fit in better where they belong. And while I would've preferred Siamorphe in Celestia, she fits in better in Eternal Sun. Certainly moreso than in Brightwater. I figured it'd be a month before both Ilmater and Siamorphe started clawing out their own eyes from hanging out in Brightwater. Looks like I was right.

Likewise, I can see keeping Jergal around. Here's what I found odd, though. The domains which contained one and only god. Cyric I can understand. But Lolth and Ghaunadaur? They could've easily have kept Kiaransalee and Selvetarm as Lesser Gods/Exarchs serving Lolth. Shame they didn't, as the Demonweb Pits seems pretty lonely. In addition, I thought for sure Ghaunadaur would've turned out to be a Primordial. His remaining a god seems strange to me. And if he was going to stay a god, then why not remain allied with Lolth in the Demonweb Pits?

Good points! Ghaunadaur as a primordial who lingered after the world was split would have made an interesting story. Re: the visitors to Brightwater...LOL! Funny images in my head with that one.
Another thing I didn't understand was making Ilmater and Bahamut Good instead of Lawful Good. What was the purpose of that? Ilmater was Lawful Good in every prior edition, while Bahamut is Lawful Good in Core. I understand the reasons for making Corellon's alignment different from what it is in Core, but what reason is there to make Bahamut Good and not Lawful Good? Especially seeing as he's God of Justice. Not to mention that, because of that, there's a serious shortage of Lawful Good Lesser Gods.

Woah, I didn't notice that about Bahamut. With regard to Ilmater I could see for having him different. Bahamut, though, is indeed odd to think about. Funny...I went to see if Tiamat's alignment was still Lawful too. Hehe.
#31

JudgeDookie

Aug 25, 2008 21:23:12
To be fair, a lot of other deities had "history" as well, but I agree that Jergal seems strangely plain-yet-interesting and should be kept around.

Difference being that he actually held the throne that the current god is sitting on. And the fact that he intentionally gave it up means he was well aware of the trials one needed to deal with to keep it.

And lets not forget that he also held the portfolio’s Cyric currently holds—who, of which, Kelevmor despises.

They're vegetarian dragons! :P If that weren't so comic it'd be interesting to see how the realm worked! Didn't some 3x dragons eat gems and jewels and stuff?

Don’t ask me. The question of starvation came up and there was only one other way to think concerning its the jungle.
#32

naex

Aug 25, 2008 21:27:40
They're vegetarian dragons! :P If that weren't so comic it'd be interesting to see how the realm worked! Didn't some 3x dragons eat gems and jewels and stuff?

The Dragon Ascendant PrC required a dragon to consume it's hoard. But most of the rumors of eating treasure were just that, rumors, they can sleep for extended periods when food is scarce. (all of above is considered IIRC).
#33

Charles_Phipps

Aug 25, 2008 21:47:16
I loved 2E and the Silver Dragons.

They just shapechange into human form and eat their food.

#34

darqueknight

Aug 25, 2008 22:08:57
I don't think they hate the god of magic idea. IMO, they just needed time to let the current events play out, before introducing a new one, that way it isn't tied to the old regime, and they don't have to try to reintegrate the Weave.
A true god/goddess of magic this time. Rather than a referee of the Weave, who's very authority can be undermined by another god creating their own form of magic.

100 years was not long enough to let current events play out?

Guess time is really different for AO. mabey he can get around to it some time next 200-500 years or so. ;)

Cheers!
#35

Charles_Phipps

Aug 25, 2008 22:11:53
Meh, Ed actually said the first Mystra was often frustrated that she WASN'T a god of good but maintaining the balance often meant she had to smack down the evil wizards constantly.
#36

lord_karsus

Aug 26, 2008 23:11:42
24) I forgot the most blatantly obvious one: The whole 'Abeir' schpiel.
#37

JudgeDookie

Aug 26, 2008 23:16:04
25) Dawn Titans, but no Dawn Titans.
#38

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 0:06:01
26) Evermeet was transported to the Plane of Faerie. Odd, considering that Evermeet was a "piece of" Arvandor pulled to the Material Plane.
#39

krownhunter07

Aug 27, 2008 0:13:09
26) Evermeet was transported to the Plane of Faerie. Odd, considering that Evermeet was a "piece of" Arvandor pulled to the Material Plane.

I like it, myself. After the Drow and that bastard Sun elf attacked Evermeet, it seems like moving it to Faerie would be a smart move on their part (when they found out they could).
#40

naex

Aug 27, 2008 0:21:24
I like it, myself. After the Drow and that bastard Sun elf attacked Evermeet, it seems like moving it to Faerie would be a smart move on their part (when they found out they could).

Except the Feywild isn't a peaceful place of happy dancing elves. It is more dangerous in some ways than Faerun, and some of the beasties there have a taste for elf-blood.
#41

GreenKnight

Aug 27, 2008 0:26:31
True, but it does have the advantage that the natives of the Feywild may not know they're there. How much safer would Evermeet have been, for instance, if the natives of Faerun hadn't known there was an island nation of elves to the west? They'll probably find out about them eventually, but for the moment Evermeet is probably pretty safe.
#42

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 0:27:55
How much safer would Evermeet have been, for instance, if the natives of Faerun hadn't known there was an island nation of elves to the west?

-They did a pretty good job of keeping it a secret for upwards of around 19,000 years...The Netherese? The Imaskari? They knew nothing. Currently, there aren't any nations that can claim to be on par with those fallen civilizations.

-Evermeet was conscientiously moved, though? I thought it was "picked up" and placed elsewhere due to the Spellplague.
#43

GreenKnight

Aug 27, 2008 0:29:26
And now they have the advantage of popping into the Feywild at near full-strength, where no one's ever heard of Evermeet. So maybe if they're lucky they'll get another 19,000 years of secrecy keeping them safe?
#44

naex

Aug 27, 2008 0:31:06
-They did a pretty good job of keeping it a secret for upwards of around 19,000 years...The Netherese? The Imaskari? They knew nothing. Currently, there aren't any nations that can claim to be on par with those fallen civilizations.

Did you intentionally leave out Jhaamdath? A nation with Elven lands to the North and South. Not that we had any idea about Evermeet either.
#45

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 0:32:18
Did you intentionally leave out Jhaamdath? A nation with Elven lands to the North and South. Not that we had any idea about Evermeet either.

-No, I did not do that on purpose. You Jhammdathians were alright in my book.
#46

krownhunter07

Aug 27, 2008 0:32:26
-They did a pretty good job of keeping it a secret for upwards of around 19,000 years...The Netherese? The Imaskari? They knew nothing. Currently, there aren't any nations that can claim to be on par with those fallen civilizations.

-Evermeet was conscientiously moved, though? I thought it was "picked up" and placed elsewhere due to the Spellplague.

Which makes Evermeet all the safer now that it is in a place where no one knows of it... another 19,000 years of peace sounds like a sweet deal to me.

*Note that I doubt it will be that long, but heh..
#47

GreenKnight

Aug 27, 2008 0:33:48
-Evermeet was conscientiously moved, though? I thought it was "picked up" and placed elsewhere due to the Spellplague.

From the FRCG:

History DC 10: Even Evermeet’s closest allies, the fey kingdoms in Faerûn, lost contact with Evermeet after the Spellplague. With the failure of all portals, embassies, and attempts to reestablish contact, common wisdom now has it that Evermeet has been destroyed.

Arcana DC 40: Evermeet in fact survives in the Feywild. An echo of the fey refuge remains in Toril as an isle with the same shape and diameter, lying off the coast of the unfamiliar continent of Returned Abeir. The echo is empty of structures and has few residents. Evermeet fey can step back and forth between the echo and the Feywild’s Evermeet as they choose.

Contact points and routes between Faerûn and Evermeet were severed during the Year of Blue Fire, and they have been slow to reknit in the years since. Queen Amlaruil is gone, and the throne stands empty; Evermeet is currently governed by its Royal Council. Some suspect that a Moonflower heir yet walks Faerûn, severed from his or her native land.
#48

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 0:40:22
-Doesn't even say, then.
#49

GreenKnight

Aug 27, 2008 0:47:37
Looks like it wasn't by choice, according to this line.

"Sumbrar: When Evermeet was whirled into the Feywild..."
#50

msatran

Aug 27, 2008 1:21:42
27. The Feywild. WHY?

28. Asmodeus eats Azuth? WHY

29. The Shadowfell? WHY?

30. Elemental Chaos? WHY?

If you need to blow up the universe to make changes, you shouldn't be making them.
#51

BadCatMan

Aug 27, 2008 1:32:04
We're numbering these?

31) Why does the chapter on Cosmology come before the chapter on Faerun And Beyond? The planes shouldn't be the first stop on one's travels.
#52

akumadaimyo

Aug 27, 2008 1:32:57
I noticed Jarlaxle is still around. I wonder what he's up to. It's been like what, a 100 years? His buddy Artemis is LONG dead now. Drizzt is probably still around but Cattie Brie, Wolfgar, Regis and maybe even Bruener are dead. So I'm curious as to what they are up to. The info on Jarlaxle makes it sound like he's back with Bregan De Arthe.

So the Shadowfell is in FR too? I thought that was a generic "points of light" thing? Guess not.
#53

Bluenose

Aug 27, 2008 5:42:33
9. Removing Mulhorand, Unther, Maztica, and other places deemed "unRealmsian", only to replace them with new additions that are "unRealmsian".

Whether they're "unRealmsian" or not, they've replaced placed that were quite blatant real-world rip-offs with something that's rather more "fantasy". I think that's a good thing.

I noticed Jarlaxle is still around. I wonder what he's up to. It's been like what, a 100 years? His buddy Artemis is LONG dead now. Drizzt is probably still around but Cattie Brie, Wolfgar, Regis and maybe even Bruener are dead. So I'm curious as to what they are up to. The info on Jarlaxle makes it sound like he's back with Bregan De Arthe.

So the Shadowfell is in FR too? I thought that was a generic "points of light" thing? Guess not.

Bruenor is confirmed dead, iirc.

And the Shadowfell is the old Plane of Shadow with a new name.
#54

nezu_chiza

Aug 27, 2008 11:48:28
His buddy Artemis is LONG dead now.

Artemis is part Shadow, with the extended lifespan it gives. Odds are he's still around.

That said, I want to know what happened to Finder!
#55

keveras

Aug 27, 2008 11:58:09
His buddy Artemis is LONG dead now.

No, he's not.
Eventually, he will get his article, paragraph, or at least a short reference in DDI. Well, I hope so.

Anyway...

32) That the sharn are CE. I don't like it at all.
#56

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 12:18:22
Looks like it wasn't by choice, according to this line.

"Sumbrar: When Evermeet was whirled into the Feywild..."

-I don't see that being indicative of it leaning one way or another. The only thing I see that being indicative of is someone using a thesaurus. ;)

Whether they're "unRealmsian" or not, they've replaced placed that were quite blatant real-world rip-offs with something that's rather more "fantasy". I think that's a good thing.

-Mulhorand and Unther should have had a heavy Egyptian and Mesopotamian feel, being as that they were founded by Egyptians and Mesopotamians. That said, both also had about 20 years or so to grow tendrils into the setting, which they began doing. All the other places that replaced them? Even more foreign to the setting than before, and they need to weave themselves better into the setting, as Mulhorand and Unther did. It's basically ripping the sunflower out of your rose garden, because, although the same color as your roses, it is a sunflower, and planting tulips.
#57

shoonvii

Aug 27, 2008 12:38:29
-I don't see that being indicative of it leaning one way or another. The only thing I see that being indicative of is someone using a thesaurus. ;)



-Mulhorand and Unther should have had a heavy Egyptian and Mesopotamian feel, being as that they were founded by Egyptians and Mesopotamians. That said, both also had about 20 years or so to grow tendrils into the setting, which they began doing. All the other places that replaced them? Even more foreign to the setting than before, and they need to weave themselves better into the setting, as Mulhorand and Unther did. It's basically ripping the sunflower out of your rose garden, because, although the same color as your roses, it is a sunflower, and planting tulips.

EXACTLY. Look at how much our world has changed in the last 100 years, without the aid of wacky extraplanar garbage (as far as we know)

Who knows what those nations could have become with some clever political maneuverings and invasions? They could have been realistically drastically changed and made into something completely unrecognizable from their Egyptian and Mesopotamian roots.
#58

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 12:40:15
Who knows what those nations could have become with some clever political maneuverings and invasions? They could have been realistically drastically changed and made into something completely unrecognizable from their Egyptian and Mesopotamian roots.

-Well, that, no, never would have happened, nor should it have happened. Their roots need to be recognizable. But, with more time (especially a blanket 100-year shift in the timeline, in which anything could have happened), they could have certainly become even more 'Realmsian' than they were.
#59

quale_

Aug 27, 2008 12:45:00
they shoulda changed over 3000 years, no matter that Gilgeam kept status quo
#60

shoonvii

Aug 27, 2008 12:57:28
-Well, that, no, never would have happened.

Why not? If some nutty guy came along, took control and systematically destroyed every vestige of their roots ala the Christianization that took place in our world, it could happen. I mean, it's just as likely as a piece of another world from another dimension crash-landing on top of Mulorand and Unther .


-Their roots need to be recognizable. But, with more time (especially a blanket 100-year shift in the timeline, in which anything could have happened), they could have certainly become even more 'Realmsian' than they were.

I agree. I was just saying that if the designers' goal was to get rid of the real-world similarities, they could have done it in a much more realistic manner. No matter what happened, there would still be a few lingering remnants, but these could have been excluded or glossed over - which is kind of what they did in parts, I know I saw a reference to Horus-Re in the new FRCG somewhere.

Note that I'm not saying I agree with what the designers have done, I'm just trying to look at things from their perspective and offer better (IMO) alternative ways they could have done it. I wish they'd just left the area alone. Back when I was designing games, my boss would have never allowed such a contrived idea to fly.
#61

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 13:02:34
Why not? If some nutty guy came along, took control and systematically destroyed every vestige of their roots ala the Christianization that took place in our world, it could happen. I mean, it's just as likely as a piece of another world from another dimension crash-landing on top of Mulorand and Unther

-This is more or less what the Muslims did when they invaded and converted Egypt. Does Egypt's native culture still poke through?

No matter what happened, there would still be a few lingering remnants...

-This is why I brought up the fact that total "conversion" would be relativley impossible.
#62

krownhunter07

Aug 27, 2008 13:36:15
I think that is why they nixed them altogether instead of mudding them down... I mean, really, how much more upset would you be?

Add this to the new races needing put in (debatable, I know, not my point) and it makes more sense.
#63

drowbattlemind

Aug 27, 2008 13:50:41
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmbralKnight View Post
19. Why on Toril Fzoul gets a promotion to demigod after such a catastophic failure in management. Is it because of his villanous moustache? Is it that Bane just can't quit him?

That's actually something I've always wondered about and I think ED GREENWOOD has commented, he's not actually sure why Fzoul keeps failing upwards. Ed himself has stated that Fzoul is one of the LEAST loyal priests in history and would gladly serve any other god as much as Bane.

It's because Fzoul is the Jon Peters of the Realms.
(If you don't get the reference, Google "Jon Peters", "Kevin Smith", and "Superman Lives". Kevin's lectures on YouTube concerning this are hilarious.)
#64

GreenKnight

Aug 27, 2008 13:52:53
Fzoul was a hair stylist for Barbra Streisand?
#65

drowbattlemind

Aug 27, 2008 13:57:40
Fzoul was a hair stylist for Barbra Streisand?

At this point, I wouldn't put it past him.
Actually, I was referring to the "Failing upwards" part.
Smith said the same thing about Jon Peters, "Apparently, in Hollywood, people fail upwards."

Besides, you just KNOW Fzoul is going to throw a Thanagarian Snarebeast, er, Giant Spider at the player characters in the fourth act.
#66

GreenKnight

Aug 27, 2008 13:58:42
Yeah, he went from hair stylist, to producer on some Streisand boxing movie, to producer for Superman Lives.
#67

shoonvii

Aug 27, 2008 14:09:54
-This is more or less what the Muslims did when they invaded and converted Egypt. Does Egypt's native culture still poke through?

I don't think so, except for those giant pyramids. I admit I don't know everything about modern Egypt, but the Muslims could have taken it to another level if they had all the stuff available in FR (magic and whatnot.)

So I guess the pyramids in Mulhorand could still stand as reminders, unless the new ruler dismantled them. If he or she killed everyone that did not assimilate, which would practically be genocide, then the country could be completely transformed.


-
-This is why I brought up the fact that total "conversion" would be relativley impossible.

True, but the designers could have done it. Obviously they know no boundaries, given what they have already done.
#68

shoonvii

Aug 27, 2008 14:14:10
I think that is why they nixed them altogether instead of mudding them down... I mean, really, how much more upset would you be?

Add this to the new races needing put in (debatable, I know, not my point) and it makes more sense.

Truthfully, I'm not upset per se. This stuff doesn't plague me at night or anything, but I just think it could have been done better and less contrived. With what they have done, they have made obvious their intent. If they would have done it in a more realistic manner, it would not have been so obvious and more dynamic, IMO.

The race thing could have been done better as well. I don't really care about new races but 100+ years could have seen the proliferation of obscure races without extraplanar juxtaposition.
#69

Century

Aug 27, 2008 15:01:19
They got rid of every god with a link to magic (except Cyric - who killed and subsumed Leira lady of the mists).
Hopefully so we can see the ascension of the new god/goddess of magic.

Corellon has historically had a link to magic.


26) Evermeet was transported to the Plane of Faerie. Odd, considering that Evermeet was a "piece of" Arvandor pulled to the Material Plane.

While I agree that they seem to be ignoring the old bit of lore about it being a piece of Arvandor, I understand the desire to move to Faerie. Remember that a huge unknown continent full of dragons and other threats had just appeared on their doorstep. Escaping into a vast ocean on a plane they are well suited for seems like a good option, given the circumstances.
#70

naex

Aug 27, 2008 15:34:34
32) That the sharn are CE. I don't like it at all.

Yeah, I tend to agree on this one, the Sharn come out of Blackstaff looking like the good guys watching for corrupt magic, then along comes the spellplague, and they get twisted into evil guys out to spread that very corruption.
#71

shoonvii

Aug 27, 2008 16:26:51
Yeah, I tend to agree on this one, the Sharn come out of Blackstaff looking like the good guys watching for corrupt magic, then along comes the spellplague, and they get twisted into evil guys out to spread that very corruption.

Yeah, reading through the FRCG I quickly got to the point where I could call the changes before I even read them. Virtually every place or thing had become darker and more evil than they were 100 years ago.
#72

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 19:28:21
-What's wrong with the Sharn, now? They are wanting to spread the corruption of the Spellplague?
#73

naex

Aug 27, 2008 20:10:13
-What's wrong with the Sharn, now? They are wanting to spread the corruption of the Spellplague?

They seem to be the leaders of the Order of Blue Fire, and there somewhat chaotic orders have the effect of spreading pockets of spellplague.
#74

lord_karsus

Aug 27, 2008 20:15:48
-Inexplicably? Well, rather...Spellplague.