If the above happened to you, what would you change or do to stand out from the other authors?
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Here is what I would do:
1. I would avoid any theme that hearkened back to D&D and adventuring. I'd abandon the group / party format of many novels.
2. My main objective would be to tell a great story. I'd tell that story from a number of different perspectives.
3. I'd avoid as much formulaic fantasy as possible. There would be no true "heroes" or "villians" in my story - no young farm boy rises up against the dark lord, fights against impossible odds and wins. No good and noble kings, no beautiful princesses falling in love with commoners, etc. None of that. It would be setting appropriate material, and I'd strive to make my characters human. The antagonist has reasonable and logical motivations, the choices of the protagonist are difficult and have consequences, and sometimes there are just no good solutions to a problem.
4. I'd kill main characters when appropriate to the story. War and combat has a price. The enemy isn't faceless, they have children, parents, brothers and sisters. When you enter battle you risk your life, the lives of your friends, and when you kill someone there are repercussions to those actions. Lives are impacted as a result of death, no matter how noble your cause.
5. I love intrigue and intelligent antagonists. I love complexity. I love reading a novel and not being sure who to root for, or even being able to identify with individuals on both sides of a conflict. Intrigue is always important to me. People fight for a reason, not just because they can.
6. I like the idea of there being no real truth. In a conflict it is possible for more than one side to be right, or to hold part of the truth. I love the idea of biased opinions playing a role in how a character reacts to situations. What I hate the most is when a writer tries to tell me which person is right and which person (or people) are wrong. I like to make up my own mind, and have the author focused on just telling a good story.
7. I love the lore of the Forgotten Realms. I'd love to see a novel integrate the story into the history and legends of the setting. Really, to me when it comes to the Forgotten Realms novels, the lore and history is what makes a novel a FR novel and what makes it a novel that could have been set in a different setting.
8. Richly textured female characters. When I read a female character I want to know it's a female, not a male with breasts.
9. I want a novel that steps away from high magic. A story doesn't need uber wizards or high powered characters. The novels are full of them. There are literally thousands upon thousands of stories to tell about individuals WHO ARE NOT near epic or epic in "level." (A concept that should not even exist in the novels.)
10. Perhaps for many of the above reasons, I also want a novel that is for adults. I don't care if some little tween likes the book or not, I am not a tween. I am an adult, and I don't want a novel that has to be censored for that audience. This means it is acceptable for such a novel to deal with sex, violence, complicated moral issues, and other such things that either must be toned down or cut out for younger audiences.
All of the above in my view would be a drastic departure from the standard Realms novel. It certainly wouldn't suit everyone's taste (especially if they LIKE the way novels are done), but I do think it would appeal to a new and different audience. (Particularly adults who feel that standard fantasy is too childish.)
If WotC approached you and asked you to write a novel (or a number of them), and gave you complete freedom to do whatever you wanted what would you change / do?
Also, it should be pointed out that Frodo would have failed if not for Sam, as Frodo was corrupted by the ring in the end. I think Tolkien is a good example to learn from for the Realms. He was focused on telling a good story, but he was also mindful of key moments.
He had to have Frodo corrupted in the end, because he had to prove that the ring really was as corruptive and evil as everyone said it was. The story wouldn't have been as believable if Frodo was able to complete his quest. He had to kill off Boromir to illustrate that the journey was costly and dangerous. He had to have the reader believe that people could die so that they'd be concerned for the safety of the other members of the Fellowship.
Most importantly, the bulk of the story was focused around the hobbits, who were just average people thrust into extraordinary circumstances. They were the true heroes of the story, even though they were surrounded by legendary figures who could do amazing things.
That is what I feel the Realms novels so often leave out: the ordinary people. It is as if the Fellowship consisted of only Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli.
I should also point out that Gandalf, despite all his power, rarely used it. When his power comes into play it is only at key moments in the story. I am reminded about something that (I believe it was Peter Jackson) joked about in the Return of the King. In a scene at Minas Tirith Gandalf rushes out and saves the cavalry from death by using a beam of light from his staff. It led to the question: "If Gandalf could do that, why couldn't he do it previously or at other moments when it was needed?" Jackson joked that he could only do it once because "his staff ran out of batteries."
Another author that writes a completely different type of fiction worthy of note is George R.R. Martin in a Song of Fire and Ice. He kills off a number of view point characters (and he is not even done with the books yet). Yet each death adds to the story, it doesn't subtract from it. I say over all he does the killing off of view point characters the best I have ever seen. He kills many characters that I was fond of, and would have considered the "heroes" of the story (so far). In two cases I was so shocked at their deaths I actually put the book down. Not out of anger, but of shock and having to break myself from reading to adsorb what had just happened. In most instances I saw it coming, yet so much of me held out hope that they'd make it. That something would happen at the last moment. There was always that slim chance of hope, and even as it was happening, I held onto that hope. And when it was over... it was just shocking. I had to take a moment to adsorb what had happened and for my mind to accept it.
I actually got up both times, walked around the room, took a deep breath to collect my thoughts. Then, I sat down to read again – flying through the rest of the chapters cursing the SOBs who killed so-and-so (I won't spoil it :P). It fueled the story, I was driven forward determined to learn about what happened next. It drove me deeper into his story. I became MORE connected with his characters.
What I also found wonderful about a Song of Fire and Ice (so far) is that some characters do really horrible things. In the beginning of the first book, I immediately found some characters to hate. In fact, most people have something to dislike... it is just that early on something really awful happens. Something that sets the story he is about to tell in motion. Yet, later on in the books I find myself liking the same character who did the horrible thing. Of course, he is clearly changing as a person (which makes it easier), but he is still the same.
Even characters that I loathe (I speak of Cersei here for those of you who have read the books), I enjoy reading their point of view. I understand why she does what she does, why she feela the way she feels, and still can't wait for the day when she gets what is coming to her. (Because she totally deserves it. :P)
So yeah, um. I'm a bit off track, and so far I've noticed that no one has done what I've asked:
What would you change if WotC came to you and said, "Write us a Forgotten Realm's novel. We're going to give you total freedom to do whatever you want."
If the above happened to you, what would you change or do to stand out from the other authors?
Unfortunately...you wont understand Dragonlance Legends unless you read Dragonalce Chronicles...Some people say that Chronicles was better...but Legends was he best to me...Even though I wasn't able to read Chronicles I still understood how Legends was getting at.
What would you change if WotC came to you and said, "Write us a Forgotten Realm's novel. We're going to give you total freedom to do whatever you want."
If the above happened to you, what would you change or do to stand out from the other authors?
Firstly, I'd read your book. It definitly reminded me of George R.R. Martin's style of writing (though I only read A Game of Thrones).
So on to your question:
1. I would probably write post-spellplague. This gives me enough freedom to write what I wish with out screwing with continunity. I know you said WotC would give me freedom, but it won't help if the fans have problems with it. Also, in a post-spellplague Realms, things seem more "dark" and I could really use that to my advantage.
2. As Meldread, my main objective would be to write a great story from a few perspectives. Not as many as say R.R. Martin, but more so than you see in a typical Realms novel.
3. I'd introduce loads more gore and realistic consequences during battle scenes. Guess what, war is messy and I'd like to fully illustrate that fact. In addition, many authors gloss over simple facts such as how armies live on the road with things like supply lines and re-mounts and such camp chores like latrine duty. So I think I would add some of S.M. Sterling's reality into the novel.
4. My novel wouldn't be about the usual world/Realm domination, epic resurrection of ancient-evil deities, or the like I often come across in Realms novels. It might be as small as one fiefdom against another within a realm or conspiracy to assassinate a noble or important figure head. To me it doens't have to be Epic to be good.
5. Sometimes characters die and I'd kill them off if approprate to the story. I wouldn't kill them off them willy-nilly as R.R. Martin seems to do, but I wouldn't have such an extensive list of NPCs as say....Robert Jordan seems to have. I'd like to have a balanced middle-ground.
6. Magic would be toned down some, but not altogether extinguished. There are wizards/sorcerers sure, but they don't always have the right spell/ritual for the job.
7. I'd like my novel to be more grey when dealing morality and good and evil. Things in the real world aren't so black and white and sometimes good people do evil things. The ends sometimes justify the means.
8. The bad guy's Intelligence doesn't drop to 1 in the last 50 pages of the book. In many Realms/other fantasy novels the bad guy has an elaborate plot that almost comes to fruition but loses in the end due to the heroes and it's usually because of his carelessness or stupid actions. I'd like my villians to be ruthless, cunning, manipulative, and treacherous. The best villians are the ones you really hate, the ones that if you saw them on the street you might be willing to kill them on the spot because you know how they are.
9. It would be an adult novel (as Meldread said). It's going to have sex, drug usage, gore, torture, and it's probably not for the squeamish. Basically it'll have elements from the Book of Vile Darkness and that got a parental warning label.
10. I would probably write it in some depth. I've noticed that Realms books usually run 290 to 350 pages. My novels would have something like 450+ to fit in all the introduction, details, plot twists, climax, and conclusion.
Here is an excerpt of something I wrote:
Show
The orc broke rank and charged. Yelling a war cry, and swinging his heavy broadsword around from left to right, it attempted to cut the human in half. The human stood there with a bemused smile on his lips, meeting the charging orc. The blade came across, whistling as its keen edge cut the air, to pass a hairs breath above the ducking human.
Dropping to one knee as the orc swung, the human known as Valdrake lashed out with Thresher. Its purple glowing edge slashed through the orcs ankle, crushing bone and tearing through sinew. Oh how the orc howled. Unable to stop his momentum, the orc tripped over the crouched human, sending him airborne. Valdrake thrusted his longsword up over his head, skewering the orc’s belly and letting the dying monster's lurch carry itself along Hellfire’s glowing steel. The orc was dead before it even hit the ground as its body was split in half from navel to groin.
The orc broke rank and charged. Yelling a war cry, and swinging his heavy broadsword around from left to right, it attempted to cut the human in half. The human stood there with a bemused smile on his lips, meeting the charging orc. The blade came across, whistling as its keen edge cut the air, to pass a hairs breath above the ducking human.
Dropping to one knee as the orc swung, the human known as Valdrake lashed out with Thresher. Its purple glowing edge slashed through the orcs ankle, crushing bone and tearing through sinew. Oh how the orc howled. Unable to stop his momentum, the orc tripped over the crouched human, sending him airborne. Valdrake thrusted his longsword up over his head, skewering the orc’s belly and letting the dying monster's lurch carry itself along Hellfire’s glowing steel. The orc was dead before it even hit the ground as its body was split in half from navel to groin.
I think it is wise to note that even Tolkien killed some of his main characters: Boromir is perhaps the most notable. Although Gandalf does die (but comes back), and Gollum dies in the end.
Also, it should be pointed out that Frodo would have failed if not for Sam, as Frodo was corrupted by the ring in the end. I think Tolkien is a good example to learn from for the Realms. He was focused on telling a good story, but he was also mindful of key moments.
He had to have Frodo corrupted in the end, because he had to prove that the ring really was as corruptive and evil as everyone said it was. The story wouldn't have been as believable if Frodo was able to complete his quest. He had to kill off Boromir to illustrate that the journey was costly and dangerous. He had to have the reader believe that people could die so that they'd be concerned for the safety of the other members of the Fellowship.
Most importantly, the bulk of the story was focused around the hobbits, who were just average people thrust into extraordinary circumstances. They were the true heroes of the story, even though they were surrounded by legendary figures who could do amazing things.
That is what I feel the Realms novels so often leave out: the ordinary people. It is as if the Fellowship consisted of only Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli.
I should also point out that Gandalf, despite all his power, rarely used it. When his power comes into play it is only at key moments in the story. I am reminded about something that (I believe it was Peter Jackson) joked about in the Return of the King. In a scene at Minas Tirith Gandalf rushes out and saves the cavalry from death by using a beam of light from his staff. It led to the question: "If Gandalf could do that, why couldn't he do it previously or at other moments when it was needed?" Jackson joked that he could only do it once because "his staff ran out of batteries."
Another author that writes a completely different type of fiction worthy of note is George R.R. Martin in a Song of Fire and Ice. He kills off a number of view point characters (and he is not even done with the books yet). Yet each death adds to the story, it doesn't subtract from it. I say over all he does the killing off of view point characters the best I have ever seen. He kills many characters that I was fond of, and would have considered the "heroes" of the story (so far). In two cases I was so shocked at their deaths I actually put the book down. Not out of anger, but of shock and having to break myself from reading to adsorb what had just happened. In most instances I saw it coming, yet so much of me held out hope that they'd make it. That something would happen at the last moment. There was always that slim chance of hope, and even as it was happening, I held onto that hope. And when it was over... it was just shocking. I had to take a moment to adsorb what had happened and for my mind to accept it.
I actually got up both times, walked around the room, took a deep breath to collect my thoughts. Then, I sat down to read again – flying through the rest of the chapters cursing the SOBs who killed so-and-so (I won't spoil it :P). It fueled the story, I was driven forward determined to learn about what happened next. It drove me deeper into his story. I became MORE connected with his characters.
What I also found wonderful about a Song of Fire and Ice (so far) is that some characters do really horrible things. In the beginning of the first book, I immediately found some characters to hate. In fact, most people have something to dislike... it is just that early on something really awful happens. Something that sets the story he is about to tell in motion. Yet, later on in the books I find myself liking the same character who did the horrible thing. Of course, he is clearly changing as a person (which makes it easier), but he is still the same.
Even characters that I loathe (I speak of Cersei here for those of you who have read the books), I enjoy reading their point of view. I understand why she does what she does, why she feela the way she feels, and still can't wait for the day when she gets what is coming to her. (Because she totally deserves it. :P)
So yeah, um. I'm a bit off track, and so far I've noticed that no one has done what I've asked:
What would you change if WotC came to you and said, "Write us a Forgotten Realm's novel. We're going to give you total freedom to do whatever you want."
If the above happened to you, what would you change or do to stand out from the other authors?
very well written, and you prove your case enough for me.
though i do point out how it has also been abused before by many other novelists but at the head of the charge, is salvatore.
i wrote a huge thing on it before almost disecting the "formula" to parody. i veiw characters, themes, ideas as resourses and to kill a resourse without a return in investment makes me feel annoyed in the literature i read. we can take your example from lord of the rings and bohimir as somthing that worked. even dead he was a theme in the next two books as a shadow his brother couldn't live up to and as the fate to those who might be tempted by the ring.
i could also throw you 17 other books from WiTC from "useless death scenarios" that simply don't work. im certainly not disagreeing, im just waving the flag of caution, usually for writers who are stuck by restrictions of censorship. killing off chracters is the first thing to strike with. and can the be most easily abused, and considering a novel based on a game where death doesn't have the impact that it would in other fantasy books all because to raise somone from the dead is so easy, it can swing again to the rediculous.
- and I too, would read your book
Thirded.
You should read Rich Baker's new books, starting with Swordmage. I think you'd find them to meet many, if not all, of the points you brought up.
Agreed.
Despite my going into it with a bit of dread (do to the edition, NOT the author), I found it a perfect blend of background and storyline, without causing major changes to the setting as a whole.
The kind of novel you can turn into an adventure for your characters, which is EXACTLY what game-setting novels should be. If not the same exact story in the book, then the novel should at least give you enough to create your own stories (adventures) from the 'Red Slippers' dropped.
There was enough history and local flavor to be able to run a game there, without tying a DMs hands, which to me is the ideal balance (for sources and novels).
As for RAS - I don't think he kills characters enough. Cadderly was basically dead at the end of his series, and then he was 'miraculously cured' because RAS needed him for a Drizzt story (because, as we all know, the only characters that exist in RAS's FR are RAS's). Anyhow, using him again like that retro-actively ruined the Cleric Quintet for me, because it became a lot less poignant.
And don't even get me started on Wulfgar.
I really think a truly valorous and meaningful death is LONG overdo for everybody's favorite Emo Dark Elf. Kill him... but make him go out in style.
And none of that 'travels to the planes to kill gods' hokey crap - I want my FR novels to be about FR, NOT Planescape!!!
I'd include a disclaimer in each of my books that what you are about to read is not cannon as far as the game is concerned.
See, I'm merely telling a tale set within a familiar common base enviroment. It depicts one way in wich an adventure might go. My FR, the FR you read about in game suppliments, and your FR are all (and should be!) different.
Read my stories. Enjoy them. Borrow elements if you like. But please don't think your games must mirror what I've written.
Some authors, like Mark Sehestedt, write about areas we seldom hear about, and have very little canon on. Thats a great approach, and a great way to flesh-out regions that haven't gotten much coverage.
Please... no more Underdark, Waterdeep, the Dales, or Cormyr.
Or anything to do with the word 'Shadow', EVER!!!
Another thing - I'd get the hell out of the Heartlands.
Some authors, like Mark Sehestedt, write about areas we seldom hear about, and have very little canon on. Thats a great approach, and a great way to flesh-out regions that haven't gotten much coverage.
Please... no more Underdark, Waterdeep, the Dales, or Cormyr.
Or anything to do with the word 'Shadow', EVER!!!
This is pretty much everywhere in 1479 DR...
That must have been Caligula's Senate.
They probably wouldn't let me do this, but....
I'd include a disclaimer in each of my books that what you are about to read is not cannon as far as the game is concerned.
-No offense, but that'd case me to pick up your book, read the disclaimer, and then put it down, not buying it. I personally, and many others, don't care about a book if it has no impact on anything. Being canon, novels matter, whereas not being canon, they don't. There's plenty of other good (or better) books out there, if a Forgotten Realms book doesn't matter too much. Let's be frank, here. A lot of the novels aren't exactly the best written things out there, or the most exciting. I'll use Ed Greenwood as a commonly cited example. I know I wouldn't trudge through one of his books if the material inside wasn't actually pertinent to anything. If The Making of a Mage didn't really explain Elminster's upbringing, I wouldn't have read it.
Another thing - I'd get the hell out of the Heartlands.
Some authors, like Mark Sehestedt, write about areas we seldom hear about, and have very little canon on. Thats a great approach, and a great way to flesh-out regions that haven't gotten much coverage.
-MT, come on. You know just as well as I that there are no more regions that Forgotten Realms authors have to write in, since everything's already been taken and whatnot. That's direct from the "big boys", and they know what they're talking about.
My book would feature plenty of sexual congress.
-How can I run for office?
-No offense, but that'd case me to pick up your book, read the disclaimer, and then put it down, not buying it. I personally, and many others, don't care about a book if it has no impact on anything. Being canon, novels matter, whereas not being canon, they don't. There's plenty of other good (or better) books out there, if a Forgotten Realms book doesn't matter too much. Let's be frank, here. A lot of the novels aren't exactly the best written things out there, or the most exciting. I'll use Ed Greenwood as a commonly cited example. I know I wouldn't trudge through one of his books if the material inside wasn't actually pertinent to anything. If The Making of a Mage didn't really explain Elminster's upbringing, I wouldn't have read it.
That was my point in making this thread. How can Realms novels be worth reading, even if they were not canon? I think that is the best approach, canon or not. It could certainly attract new readers to become interested in the setting.
That was my point in making this thread. How can Realms novels be worth reading, even if they were not canon? I think that is the best approach, canon or not. It could certainly attract new readers to become interested in the setting.
Again, Rich Baker's new novels are exactly the kind you're asking for. They are canon, however, but rock none the less.
That was my point in making this thread. How can Realms novels be worth reading, even if they were not canon? I think that is the best approach, canon or not. It could certainly attract new readers to become interested in the setting.
-Your original post did not make mentions of removing the canon status of novels. Doing so, I feel, would be a very bad idea, precisely because they lose their ability to attract new readers to the setting, by imparting knowledge and teaching them about it. When you have novels that don't actually impact the setting in some way, small or large, or that have the capacity to leave a mark on the setting, small or large, there's no real motive to read, other than wanting to read a book. Whereas, when novels do have that status, people read to learn, in addition to just wanting to read a book.
-That seems to be the problem with Eberron novels, as to why they are still so fairly underground, whereas Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance aren't (to this particular crowd, the D&D crowd). With Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, if I want to see what X place is like, or like Y person is like, I can read a book, and there you go. With Eberron novels, if I want to find out, well, I really can't. In a novel, I'll get the author's interpretation of what X place is like, or what Y person is like, but ultimately, they are just interpretations, as opposed to actuality; Author A envisions something in Eberron like this; Author A tells you that something in the Forgotten Realms are like this.
The point of this thread was to generate ideas on what people would like to see in the novels, were they to have total freedom over them. I don't, for example, read the Wheel of Time or a Song of Fire and Ice to learn about canon, I read them because they're great books.
You say that you wouldn't read them if they weren't canon because they suck. Fair enough, I agree in most cases. However, imagine if they didn't suck. Imagine if you -enjoyed- reading the novels. Think of how many people would be attracted to the Realms if they were actually worth reading.
After all, if you think they suck, and the only reason you read them is for canon purposes, why would anyone not interested in Realms lore want to try and struggle through them?
-MT, come on. You know just as well as I that there are no more regions that Forgotten Realms authors have to write in, since everything's already been taken and whatnot. That's direct from the "big boys", and they know what they're talking about.
Oh... thats right...
My bad. :embarrass
I forgot that every square inch of Toril has been minutely detailed (unlike Eberron, where only one continent was barely fleshed-out).
I don't, for example, read the Wheel of Time or a Song of Fire and Ice to learn about canon, I read them because they're great books.
-Those books, as far as I know, are all self-contained. There is no "greater" Wheel of Time or Song of Fire and Ice world outside what is in those books. That is to say, those books are the basis of their respective worlds, and anything else that exists is a derivative of those books, making their influence on whatever else that possibly exists in that world absolute. In the case of the Forgotten Realms, it is slightly reverse: Everything that exists- which includes the Forgotten Realms novels- stems from the ideas and original notes and whatever of Ed Greenwood and TSR/WotC.
-That translates, to me, as needing to read those Wheel of Time/Song of Fire and Ice books for information about those places, as opposed to theoretically noncanon Forgotten Realms books, where, when you read them, you are not getting information about the Forgotten Realms, but rather, [Insert Author]'s interpretation of certain things that he/she read from one of the campaign books, that, at the end of the day, don't really matter for anything. I, myself, can make up stories taking place in the Forgotten Realms, and not have to pay $7.99 for the same exact material (not in the literal sense).
You say that you wouldn't read them if they weren't canon because they suck. Fair enough, I agree in most cases. However, imagine if they didn't suck. Imagine if you -enjoyed- reading the novels. Think of how many people would be attracted to the Realms if they were actually worth reading.
After all, if you think they suck, and the only reason you read them is for canon purposes, why would anyone not interested in Realms lore want to try and struggle through them?
-Not all; as evidenced by my many reviews, there are many novels that I have sung high praise for, and the fact that I never said that all Forgotten Realms books suck. Would I have purchased many of those books, if they weren't canon, and the author telling us the story, as opposed to the author' take on some element in the setting? No, and I have no problem "admitting" that knowing that I liked these books. Sentinelspire, for example, was a novel that I liked a lot. Would I have picked it up because it was simply a Forgotten Realms book, if it wasn't canon? No. I did pick it up because it was canon, and dealt with the Utter East, a region that I like.
I think the point is that the novels can be canon without upsetting the game (like Swordmage, or some of the Harper books, etc). Its not so much that the novels shouldn't be canon, but rather they shouldn't really affect canon. RSE's change the setting, which was THE big problem with 3e. We had a bad case of Author-generated "nuclear escalation" (to the point where the level of believability was badly damaged, even for fantasy).
-That is very true, and very well said. The main element of a good book, measured by my own tastes, are good character, really. A book can be about nothing in particular, like Seinfeld, but still be a good book. Seinfeld is a good analogy, actually. On the show, "nothing ever happened", but it was alright because it had funny characters- mainly in George.
I forgot that every square inch of Toril has been minutely detailed (unlike Eberron, where only one continent was barely fleshed-out).
-Wait a minute...You know, I don't remember reading anything about what the Island of the Empire of the Evil Monkeys is like...:P ;)
You seem to be missing my point, which has nothing to do with a canon debate. :P
What I am saying is that there are many people out there who associate Realm's Novels with bad writing, poor plots, uninteresting and generic characters, etc. All in all, crappy books. I'm one of them.
So, for people like myself, and millions of others who read fantasy but would never pick up a FR novel, imagine if they actually rocked. Imagine if people wanted to read them regardless if they gave a care or not about the Realms. Imagine you going out to pick up such a book, not FOR canon, but simply because they were damn good books that you wanted to read, and learning canon was an added bonus.
Am I being clear, now? :P
-That is very true, and very well said. The main element of a good book, measured by my own tastes, are good character, really. A book can be about nothing in particular, like Seinfeld, but still be a good book. Seinfeld is a good analogy, actually. On the show, "nothing ever happened", but it was alright because it had funny characters- mainly in George.
This is really subjective... I hated Seinfeld with a passion. I agree a good story is in the characters, but there needs to be more then that. You could have the absolute best characters ever made in a story, but if all they do is sit around and do nothing, it won't sell.
Oh... thats right...
My bad. :embarrass
I forgot that every square inch of Toril has been minutely detailed (unlike Eberron, where only one continent was barely fleshed-out).
Hey, I think you got the Forgotten Realms confused with Eberron. :P
Richard Baker's Swordmage and Corsair are very good. Not like some of that other stuff.
LK-
You seem to be missing my point, which has nothing to do with a canon debate. :P
What I am saying is that there are many people out there who associate Realm's Novels with bad writing, poor plots, uninteresting and generic characters, etc. All in all, crappy books. I'm one of them.
So, for people like myself, and millions of others who read fantasy but would never pick up a FR novel, imagine if they actually rocked. Imagine if people wanted to read them regardless if they gave a care or not about the Realms. Imagine you going out to pick up such a book, not FOR canon, but simply because they were damn good books that you wanted to read, and learning canon was an added bonus.
Am I being clear, now? :P
-Yes, I understood that from post one. I already answered that question in my first post in the thread, in which I agreed with the criteria that you chose to include/not include. I am commenting on the tangent point that was raised concerning canon.
This is really subjective... I hated Seinfeld with a passion. I agree a good story is in the characters, but there needs to be more then that. You could have the absolute best characters ever made in a story, but if all they do is sit around and do nothing, it won't sell.
-I don't like Seinfeld too much, either. Jerry Seinfeld whines too much, Kramer isn't funny at all, and Elaine is annoying, and perhaps the antithesis of funny. The fact remains, it was constantly high on the Nielson list, was ranked in multiple polls as being in the Top 5 (many times, number 1) of best Sitcoms, or TV shows in general, and won lots of Golden Globe Awards, Emmys, SAG Awards, People's Choice, and other things. Being that the plot was literally "about nothing", and them sitting around doing normal things (usually) it was the comedy and the characters that sold the show. Books aren't visual, so you don't have certain elements that a TV show have, but other than that, the same methods of production remain- you write the characters, and you write the plot. You can have a story that centers around nothing in particular sell good, because the characters push it over the edge. My cousin is in the process of having something he wrote published (I think). I've read parts of what he wrote a few times, at a few different points in the story, and he's all character driven. The plot is set all during one Sunday afternoon, around a particular amateur baseball team. The setting jumps back and forth between the present, with those characters doing baseball things, and then glimpses into their past and what they are actually like, as people. I don't know if it continues after their game into the future, but either way...It's wholly character driven. With characters that are attractive to readers, you can put them in situations in which nothing really happens, or the plotline is somewhat hokey, and still have a success on your hands. When you, as a reader, want to know more about a character, the plot can be damned- though, not necessarily, as unfolding plots usually include, in some way, the character and how circumstances affect them, and whatnot.
-Obviously, in the book, there is going to have to be a conflict of some kind. You can't have a book without a conflict, in whatever form it appears. One of the best short stories I have ever read, I don't remember the name of it, or who wrote it. I read it in sophomore year of high school a few years ago. It was about 50-75 pages or so, a light, one sitting read, but it excellent. It centered around a Texas State Penitentiary (or something like that) worker, who is charge of executions in the prison he works at. For 90% of the story, he is sitting around alone, drinking, fighting the demons that haunt him because of his job, and how he joined the profession to "be a good guy", and now, twenty years later, he's become just like the "bad guys", killing people just like them. In the end, he killed himself. It was very entrancing, and it took place in two settings, his kitchen, and his bedroom.
-I might have been using the improper terminology (I'm just kinda making it up as I go). A moving plot isn't necessarily that important, a moving plot being you have character A here, who does this, and then this, and then this, and so on. A story is important, with my random definition of that being what led the different characters into the situations they find themselves, and their motives for doing things. Make sense, that differentiation? I think that encapsulates the difference fairly well.
I never saw it when it was big - I only catch it now in reruns (I catch everything in re-runs; I can't stand waiting a week to find out what happens next).
Personally I liked Kramer the best - he was so wacky. George reminds meof too many peope Ireally know (and how can you not find Elaine's dancing funny?). :D
Hey, I think you got the Forgotten Realms confused with Eberron.
Sorry, I should have put that with the '[sarcasm]' switch.
Yes, my pount was actually the complete opposite of what I said.
I like Eberron, but I could never run it, because they left absolutely no area that I could develop my own homebrew material in (which is possible everywhere on Toril, including Faerûn).
Besides, Eberron has way too much lore, unlike FR (which only got about 10 books, reprinted 47 times!).
He's a dreamer, and doesn't let any of the nay-sayers get in the way of him trying out all his kooky ideas (some of which have worked, like the 'Coffee-table book').
Don't put-down the Dreamers... if it wasn't for them, we'd still be living in caves. ;)
There are cross-over episodes where Kramer 'goes missing' for several episodes, and wound-up 'lost' on other shows (he was even Murphy Brown's secretary for one episode!)
And Elaine is the atypical 'only-cares-about-herself' NYC social climber. Thats why she's funny - she IS any of a million woman you run into everyday (remember when Jerry got that HUGE check, and she saw it, and suddenly wanted to date him again?)
The thing that is funny is not her personalty (which is annoying), but rather that she always gets what she deserves for being so selfish. The sad part is, Jerry himself is her male counterpart.
And as everyone knows, "The key to the whole show is Newman!" ;)
I do have two stories which I would like to tell.
One is the story of Kira and Dayan Nenthyn, two NPCs I designed for FR. Part of their story plays out in various (RPGA) adventures, but I think it would make a good novel as well since most of it is lost in adventure format: the relation between the twins, and the problems that relation faces in the wake of events that they cannot control. Especially as their world is not black-and-white, and has its share of less than heroic characters.
It would be Dalelands (New Velar), and probably there will be various congresses...
The other story I would like to tell is that of the main villain, from her point of view (as she has so far not had much exposure in the adventures). I think there is a lot of potential there (I liked Maiden of Pain, and it would be interesting to make a story of a Netheril 'pawn' trying to find her own way to power).
Gomez
I would run to the bookstore to read about the intrigues behind the the Thethyrian court played out over several dynasties. Or the story of a rising half-elf warlord in Rashemen who manages to shatter any chains which bound his clan and asurps the Iron Throne through a coup, along the ride first opposed by most and later on supported by a small clan of wychlaran wiches at every turn.
A multi-tiered story about the wheel and deel around a commoner rising up in a wizardry school somewhere in the realms might be a smash hit just for the descriptions of theoritical applied magic only. Describing the glamourous and beautiful sorcerous lasses on the plaza of the Academy for the Art is an added bonus.
Ghostbuster stories might have potential in the Forgotten Realms. A simple monster as the Ghost could form the center of a multi-tiered plot for a good story about redemption of absolution. Perhaps change the viewpoint even to make an antagonist ghost in some of chapters.
One of the strong points of the setting, theology and proof of divinity, could be explored more fully by detailing the changing relationship of a heretic Aumanator cleric with the clergy of Lathander. The clerics inordination into a faith happens at first through intermediaries but later on evolves into a truly personal dialogue with his patron diety, where she has to reconcile his own truths with those of his fellow clergymen.
What would you change if WotC came to you and said, "Write us a Forgotten Realm's novel. We're going to give you total freedom to do whatever you want."
If the above happened to you, what would you change or do to stand out from the other authors?
I wasn't going to say anything, Maldread, except for the uncanny coincidence of how we totally agree in almost every respect. Seriously, as I was reading your list of 10, I was thinking, "that's exactly what I'm going after in my novel!"
Seriously. If you consider reading a Realms novel, you might pick up my latest novel, Downshadow. It does exactly the things you're talking about (or at least, I *attempt* to do those things).
I *will* say that #1 (avoiding hearkening back to D&D) is technically a little iffy, particularly when you're writing a novel in a D&D setting (and according to #7, you definitely want it to be a novel well grounded in the Realms). D&D, remember, is supposed to be able to articulate all sorts of fantasy stories, so there's very little you can do in the Realms (in fact, I don't think anything) that doesn't in some way hearken back to D&D. But I think I understand your meaning, which is that you don't want something that sounds like a transcript of a D&D session. And I think that's valuable.
This is really subjective... I hated Seinfeld with a passion. I agree a good story is in the characters, but there needs to be more then that. You could have the absolute best characters ever made in a story, but if all they do is sit around and do nothing, it won't sell.
At least it would only be a one page book--that is, a quick read. Page 1 would say "A bunch of people just sat around and did nothing," and that'd be it.
At least it would only be a one page book--that is, a quick read. Page 1 would say "A bunch of people just sat around and did nothing," and that'd be it.
Ha! Well they better give it away for free then! ;)
http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/Fates%20Guide.pdf
It's not set in the heartlands but rather the (former?) Lake of Steam.
There are many gray characters. Even the badguy is just very alien.
No epic level stuff on the part of the "heroes."
You'll have to tell me if Shoptim is just a dude with boobs but I hope not.
It seems everybody is a perspective character. I thought it was getting absurd myself, but your opinion may differ.
There is a party of adventurers, since you can't go very far in the Realms without running into a party of adventurers, but they aren't the main characters by any stretch. Not every problem needs to be solved by a combo of a fighter, wizard, priest, thief, and a dude with a lute.
I think I had characters use magic in creative ways. It certainly wasn't the Batman's Utility Belt School of Wizardry that you were complaining about. EDIT: Actually, only the creative characters use their magic in creative ways. A couple of them are just too powerful and sure of themselves for nuance.
I started on the follow-on book but it suddenly ended about 40 pages in with sheets of blue fire in the sky and the utter destruction of the lands where the action was to take place. That was a little shocking but sometimes other people have bigger plans than you and execute them faster.
As to what I'd like to see. Right now I want to see Drow without focusing on nobles. There has to be a story to be told about a commoner Drow.
Something set in Kara-Tur that doesn't feel like historical fiction.
I liked Rich Baker's most recent books as well. In looking at the characters he chooses to write about and the approach they take to their problems, I feel like he is a bit of a kindred spirit. By that I don't mean that his characters and mine are particularly similar, just that I suspect Rich and I look at the world similarly.
First things first. I would read your book, Meldread, with interest. I might not read it more than once, however, for reasons that will become clear below.
I would tend not to avoid any theme out of principle, if the story I was attempting to tell included aspects that hearkened either back or sideways to previous formats or those available in other genres I would use them on the condition that I was damn sure I needed to first. Intentionally steering clear of something can lead you into just as many contrived situations as playing with the cliches.
I will agree with Meldread on the main objective. A great story is the kicker. This might seem obvious to some but what it does mean is that the story is the goal. In this I mean to draw a line between my work and a book that was comissioned on the basis of a change that was required. That kind of basis raises so many red flags for me I can`t even begin to enumerate them (Avatars or Archwizards trilogies anyone?)
Multiple perspectives has both its good and bad points. On the good side you can explore the events from every angle, lay the foundations for characterisation of multiple individuals (especially if they are physically distant) easily and maintain several internal monologues and conflicts. On the other hand there is the risk of too much information. In retaining a single person perspective you maintain a degree of mystery in that the protagonist has no blooming clue as to what has gone on in places they have not visited or to the motivations of anyone else in the tale. This mystery has a tendency to evaporate in multiple perspective offerings. If I was to write this thing I would have a central character, through whom we see most of it... and then bring in fragmentary observations from others; possibly in the third person for general but required events and first for moments of high tension, emotion or mystery.
This also feeds into the nobody is right/nobody is wrong idea. The very greyness of characters has now become a cliche in and of itself. If nobody is allowed to be truly good or evil then it is just as boring as if everyone is (Cersei I am looking at you). So I would set out to keep most of the characters interestingly mixed but I would pick out points of greater light and darkness. One of the better attempts at this for me was not made by George R. R. Martin, but by L. E. Modessitt (who tends to write fantasy in a mildly less Stephen Donaldson-esqe fashion than Martin with about the same appreciation for the political intrigues and dilemmas) in the trilogy of books internal to the Recluce series "The White Order", "The Magic Engineer" and "Colors of Chaos". Two people, both constrained utterly by their positions doing the only thing that circumstances seem to allow. Both are intelligent and act like reasoning beings. Certainly something I would try and integrate into any story I tried to tell in the Realms.
Killing main characters. Well now, here is a problem for me. Should main characters not be wearing plot armour? Oh hells yes. Should they be done away with a la Martin, Donaldson or Robin Hobb? In my opinion, no. I physically could not write a book in that style. As stated before, I like some whimsy in my Realms. The works while those authors, while well written, are pretty much the anti-whimsy. I have no desire whatsoever to bring that degree of detailed horror into the wider Realms through my work. Do horrific things take place? Yes. Do I feel they need to be related narratively directly to the reader rather than either stated or implied in absentia? No. This is, of course, down to personal style. I would like to say that unlike Meldread, when I put down A Game of Thrones when characters I enjoyed died it was in anger. After the first one it was obvious to me that once people got into a "Oh no, they might die!" situation almost all of them did. To be blunt there was no feeling of hope, no momentary reprieve, no sense that they just might pull through this time. I didn`t continue to the end wondering who might die, I went to the end to find out the few people who might survive. I could not write this way. I am an optimist (no, really I am) and though I may enjoy a well told tale, the only ones that get re-reads are the ones that don`t give me the feeling that my soul has been given an all-over body rub by a pro-wrestler with a cheesegrater. I kid you not.
Lore and the World: Yes and more yes, but not in any obvious way. This really is a less is more. Use in-world terms, use in-world places... don`t patiently explain them. The world always has to feel deeper than it actually is. Nobody, in their lives, goes around giving the dictionary definition (or precise geographical location, trade goods and governmental minutiae) of every person, object or place they refer to. Nor should a good story. Especially one set in the Realms. Give people hooks to produce their own material, or games... or just for the flights of fancy the imagination almost always supplies!
All hail a variety of female characters who feel like female characters rather than men with bosoms. I am not sure I could write them well though. I am having real problems getting Alusair to come across right in my most recent work.
Adult novels. Hmm. I think this is a good idea in principle, the practice is a little prickly. Being censored is not good, on the other hand finding the line between a portrayal that is impactful and yet not voyeuristic of sex/drugs/violence is also not good. A fine line to walk I think.
Finally, for now, I would consider scale. I love character driven plot, rather than plot driven characters. I find the latter too prevalent and consider the current publishing trend towards it to be abhorrent in the extreme. I have done scientific consulting work for 2 authors working on 3 different series projects... and with subsequent edits I have noticed (in 2 of the three cases, I am not so involved with one of them anymore) that they are being drawn slowly away from the former and towards the latter. The story has, without a doubt, suffered as a result in my opinion. So keep it about the characters, and keep it small. No RSEs here thanks, not even for Regions instead of Realms. Many of my favourite characters in both the Realms and wider fantasy (and sci-fi) were not those who rose to high office but were those who made a powerful impression with who they were (Sharindala I am looking at you as an example of this). This would be my goal.
A mixed mess but I hope there was some sense in it all, even at 2:15am and on a Japanese keyboard.
I am an optimist (no, really I am) and though I may enjoy a well told tale, the only ones that get re-reads are the ones that don`t give me the feeling that my soul has been given an all-over body rub by a pro-wrestler with a cheesegrater. I kid you not.
In any case, I agree, in the Realms I prefer some whimsy--the tone of the setting has always featured humor and lightness and that is one of the things that drew me to it in the first place.
In any case, I agree, in the Realms I prefer some whimsy--the tone of the setting has always featured humor and lightness and that is one of the things that drew me to it in the first place.
I had a feeling I might be hearing from your Ladyship about this one. Nice to converse with you again!
Yes, the fact that in the midst of the darkness (that has always existed in the Realms) there were moments of both light and dark humour really stood out for me, as far as the novels was concerned. The setting itself, game-wise rules-as-written, may not contain much of this (and may lead to games-only fans not regarding it very highly as an aspect of the Realms) but the personalities describe in both novels and narrative sidebars do. Having only read Swordmage so far in the 4EFR I can't hold a valid opinion about whether this has been preserved but I seriously hope so.
I had a feeling I might be hearing from your Ladyship about this one. Nice to converse with you again!
Thanks, it's nice talking to you again too.