Not that it matters to know - it does not have any game-bearing effect, mostly. I'm just curious to know.
I'm guessing the 4E answer to this question will be found in either the DMG or FR Campaign Setting.
I'm guessing we'll never know, since that kind of Lore is "bloat" and useless either as "phat lewtz" or "les kill im/les conqer it"
That will be answered, of course. The game is still and will remains a rpg. The changes are not to make an empty game of 'pĥat leet', this is hyperbolic stupidity.
If Eilistraee dies, my freeform rping drow priestress would have an hard hit, crisis of faith, yaddadydda... and perhaps convert to the ally cult of Selune, who have already similarities with the Dark Maiden's. I can see others lays and clerics alike doing such a things.... already happened when Bane died, Cyric and Xvim appeared.
Similar for the souls... perhaps they are turned around, offered the question of their fate.
I'm guessing we'll never know, since that kind of Lore is "bloat" and useless either as "phat lewtz" or "les kill im/les conqer it"
One of the stated design goals in 4E is that gods should be vulnerable, and high level PCs should even be able to kill a god. I don't think they would make this a design precept without some mention as to the consiquences...
One of the stated design goals in 4E is that gods should be vulnerable, and high level PCs should even be able to kill a god. I don't think they would make this a design precept without some mention as to the consiquences...
I hadn't heard this tidbit before now. One more in the negative column for me with regards to 4E.
I hadn't heard this tidbit before now. One more in the negative column for me with regards to 4E.
Why? It happened in 3E and it's occured more then a fiew times in the Realms, not realy a new concept there just balancing the power of a god around the same area as five 30th level PCs.
Of course if a DM doesn't want a god to die it's not that difficult to keep it from occuring, but it leaves the PCs the feeling that they are someting truely special at epic levels.
And you're right, as the DM I can do what I wish.
I guess I'm of the feeling that mortals (no matter how powerful) should not be able to kill a god. At epic levels they should be able to do some world shaking things. I just consider god killing to be above that.
And you're right, as the DM I can do what I wish.
But arn't almost all the FR gods in 3E former mortals?
Shouldn't that highist of all goals exist atleast in potential for every adventuring PC?
Otherwise it would just be a case of "no matter how good you are, you'll never be as good as the mortals who became gods"...
I guess I'm of the opinion that in a high fantasy game nothing should be impossible.
PC who becomes a god can certainly kill another god. (if powerful enough) No issue with that.
PC who is not a god should not be able to kill a god.
Strawman argument, Alediran. this is a very relievant and valuable fluff, that is important.
Negative. The developers of WotC said they WANT to concentrate on streamlined mechanics and game usefull, quick to understand, lore. The relevance of the destination of a dead god followers' souls aren't important for the game's point of view, which is what WotC is using for the new edition.
That will be answered, of course. The game is still and will remains a rpg. The changes are not to make an empty game of 'pĥat leet', this is hyperbolic stupidity.
Evidence so far points to the contrary.
If Eilistraee dies, my freeform rping drow priestress would have an hard hit, crisis of faith, yaddadydda... and perhaps convert to the ally cult of Selune, who have already similarities with the Dark Maiden's. I can see others lays and clerics alike doing such a things.... already happened when Bane died, Cyric and Xvim appeared.
If Eilistraee dies, she will be dead for many decades before the 4th edition realms start, so the destiny of Eilistraee's souls are fluff that isn't going to be developed since it's before 4th edition FR start (and WotC repeteadly said they aren't going to create lore before the date of begining in the 4th edition FR). Most gods will be dead long before 4th edition FR starts, so they are lore from the past, which is a time not going to be developed.
Similar for the souls... perhaps they are turned around, offered the question of their fate.
See above.
But arn't almost all the FR gods in 3E former mortals?
How ignorant can you be? That's completely false, most gods were born as gods. Former mortal-gods are minority in the Realms.
Shouldn't that highist of all goals exist atleast in potential for every adventuring PC?
No thanks, being a god in the Realms is having less control over my decisions. Gods in the Realms are the ultimate slaves. That's what AO said Cyric when he asked to be a god.
Otherwise it would just be a case of "no matter how good you are, you'll never be as good as the mortals who became gods"...
And why is important to become a god? That can only be a good thing from the point of view of an egomaniacal mind.
I guess I'm of the opinion that in a high fantasy game nothing should be impossible.
Then you think wrong. High fantasy doesn't means that. There are things impossible in a fantasy game, like killing AO. AO is the supreme Overgod in Realmspace, and if a mortal succesfully killed a god (which needs the help from another god, making the victory 10% the mortal, 90% the helping god) he can reinstate the dead god with just a thought.
One of the stated design goals in 4E is that gods should be vulnerable, and high level PCs should even be able to kill a god. I don't think they would make this a design precept without some mention as to the consiquences...
You misinterpreted Richard Baker's post. He never said gods will be killed by just a party of five 30th lvl characters. He said the REMOTE possibility could exists of a mortal defeating a god (which has happened before in the realms, but again is NOT COMMON), if the mortals could create the right conditions (again, a very remote possibility since the targeted god has countless ways from stopping the mortals)
Why? It happened in 3E and it's occured more then a fiew times in the Realms, not realy a new concept there just balancing the power of a god around the same area as five 30th level PCs.
No gods where killed by mortals during 3rd edition. And the power of even the lesser gods in FR far surpasses the powers of a epic 40th lvl party with 6 members. A Greater gods makes every check with a d20 as Natural 20s, that means that every single attack or save is a success, no matter how much AC or DCs the players can get.
I have no problem with PCs ascending to godhood. I think you misunderstand me.
PC who becomes a god can certainly kill another god. (if powerful enough) No issue with that.
PC who is not a god should not be able to kill a god.
Isn't that a bit circular?
No problems with a PC becoming a god- To become a god, a god must die- Only a god should be able to kill a god.
So you have no problem with a PC becoming a god, so long as the decision is completely arbitrary and in no way something the PC can actually aspire to during there long adventuring lifetime?
You misinterpreted Richard Baker's post. He never said gods will be killed by just a party of five 30th lvl characters. He said the REMOTE possibility could exists of a mortal defeating a god (which has happened before in the realms, but again is NOT COMMON), if the mortals could create the right conditions (again, a very remote possibility since the targeted god has countless ways from stopping the mortals)
No gods where killed by mortals during 3rd edition. And the power of even the lesser gods in FR far surpasses the powers of a epic 40th lvl party with 6 members. A Greater gods makes every check with a d20 as Natural 20s, that means that every single attack or save is a success, no matter how much AC or DCs the players can get.
I never said it would be common, nore did I say I was getting my info from Rich Baker.
All the info I have on the subject came from Worlds and Monsters and to a lesser extent from Races and Classes.
On a side note, if you continue choosing such a rude approach to your posts I will no longer bother to respond to them.
I never said it would be common, nore did I say I was getting my info from Rich Baker.
All the info I have on the subject came from Worlds and Monsters and to a lesser extent from Races and Classes.
On a side note, if you continue choosing such a rude approach to your posts I will no longer bother to respond to them.
If you were absolutely sure the world is going to end tomorrow and nobody else listened to your words, you'll quickly reach the state of anoyed and angry with those people. I reached that state a week ago.
If you were absolutely sure the world is going to end tomorrow and nobody else listened to your words, you'll quickly reach the state of anoyed and angry with those people. I reached that state a week ago.
They are of course badwrong not right. So, your anger is justified; they dare touching our realms and misshandling them!
If you were absolutely sure the world is going to end tomorrow and nobody else listened to your words, you'll quickly reach the state of anoyed and angry with those people. I reached that state a week ago.
I don't mean to presume to tell you what to do, but you may find things easier to deal with if you take a step back or just walk away for a while.
We all feel passionately about D&D, which can cause us to get too close to the problem to see other points of view.
What happens to his/her followers? Meaning... his/her faithful that have been granted eternal rest/paradise/service/torment... what happens to these souls when their patron kicks the bucket? For example, Mystra's home plane is dweomerheart and her faithful reside on her home plane in their version of eternal bliss. Mystra dies... what happens to those faithful that have been granted eternal bliss? Due they end up going to the Fugue Plane? Are classified as faithless since the essence of their faith (i.e. Mystra) is gone? Or do they just fade away? Continue to exist in dweomerheart? Are absorbed by another patron?
Not that it matters to know - it does not have any game-bearing effect, mostly. I'm just curious to know.
So far no has answered these questions. My best guess based on Canon is that the God's portfolio is taken up by another God and that the followers may or may not know immediately but would still have a divine connection to whomever holds the portfolio. Souls already received would belong to the new God. If the portfolio's ownership were undetermined then it would be possible that the souls would remain in the Fugue. In the case of Mystra it would be difficult to determine since an unravelling of the Weave could leave the cohesive existence of her portfolio in unknown fragments. Again, this is only speculation but seems to be more reasonable than what is posted so far.
There will not be a Goddess of Magic like Mystra in 4th edition, which means any follower she had in Dweomerhearth is now a planeless soul.
They could be very well taken by Azuth (whom I recal still living) or such arcane god.
Isn't that a bit circular?
No problems with a PC becoming a god- To become a god, a god must die- Only a god should be able to kill a god.
So you have no problem with a PC becoming a god, so long as the decision is completely arbitrary and in no way something the PC can actually aspire to during there long adventuring lifetime?
You just like to argue don't you. Seriously.
He's what I mean. Mortals should not (in my own personal opinion) be able to kill a god. If I do decide to go with 4E, no mortal will ever be able to challenge and kill/defeat a god.
You just like to argue don't you. Seriously.
He's what I mean. Mortals should not (in my own personal opinion) be able to kill a god. If I do decide to go with 4E, no mortal will ever be able to challenge and kill/defeat a god.
yet, mortals did in some tales fight gods... granted, much of them being more than humans, but...
I do seems to recall. But I may be wrong.
It's also in modern fantasy books.
yet, mortals did in some tales fight gods... granted, much of them being more than humans, but...
I do seems to recall. But I may be wrong.
It's also in modern fantasy books.
You're right.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
However, when it comes to D&D, I have different views. Views that some may not agree with, but they are my views after all and they do influence how I design campaign worlds. I don't like the concept that PCs no matter how powerful can kill a god. I believe that gods are by their very nature more powerful than creatures that are not gods.
You wanna challenge a god? Fine, become one first, then do it. Otherwise, you're out of luck.
It could expand into a nice big war with Sune (but he's doing it for love!), Torm (but he's doing it for duty and loyalty!) and Savras, (who hates Azuth) allied with Kelemvor and Oghma, Deneir, Milil, and Velsharoon (who wants Kelemvor's portfolio) all back Azuth. Throw in secret manipulations by Cyric, Mask, and Shar and you have a nice realms-encompassing holy war.
Last I checked the more followers a deity has in FR the more divine power they have to throw around. That would make followers a quantifiable and valuable treasure to adventurers wanting to take on the mantle of a supernatural being. Also, the portfolio of magic is definitely going to go to some deity out there.
I'd say that Azuth would be the key one.. he is Mystra's second, the god of mages and all that. If Mystra fall but magic exist, the weight of things lay on him.
And Ubbergeek...I must tell you your posts always get a laugh out of me. It's GUARENTEED you'll have either "strawman" or "grognard' in it some where. Getting too predictible...might want to learn a couple new words ;) Gettin to be as bad as me with my "E-Z" signature to post endings.
Okay peeps, let's look at when gods did die or was "replaced". Any replacements were either with godly minions or the original god raised a human up for it. The deaths...Helm killed Mystra, Myrkul/Bhaal were killed by a human yes, but with a sword that was actually a god anyways (Mask)...Bane was killed by Torm. These are the recent diecides, well, before the upcoming fiasco. There WERE others but the common thread here is only a god can kill another god...and THEN has to make it past AO to even be elevated to godhood.
And Ubbergeek...I must tell you your posts always get a laugh out of me. It's GUARENTEED you'll have either "strawman" or "grognard' in it some where. Getting too predictible...might want to learn a couple new words Gettin to be as bad as me with my "E-Z" signature to post endings.
Not my fault; unimaginative discourse used. Always the same tirades. *shrugs*
On AO...
AO don't really steps much over unles He have to do it. He strikes me as one who let things ago unless they are going dangerous or clearly, grossly broke His decreet.
He is YHVH, maybe, but the God as seen by Deists.
And if it's always the "same tirades" then mayhaps there be a bit o' truth to what people are "tiriding" about, hmm? ;)What happens to his/her followers? Meaning... his/her faithful that have been granted eternal rest/paradise/service/torment... what happens to these souls when their patron kicks the bucket? For example, Mystra's home plane is dweomerheart and her faithful reside on her home plane in their version of eternal bliss. Mystra dies... what happens to those faithful that have been granted eternal bliss? Due they end up going to the Fugue Plane? Are classified as faithless since the essence of their faith (i.e. Mystra) is gone? Or do they just fade away? Continue to exist in dweomerheart? Are absorbed by another patron?
Not that it matters to know - it does not have any game-bearing effect, mostly. I'm just curious to know.
I don't know what happens to the souls of his (or Her) deceased Petitioners, but we DO know what happens to some clerics, since Tenebrous/Orcus did in a few deities in the Dead Gods supermodule.
The specialty priests of the Illithid deity Maanzecorian died (all but one) when Orcus slew their god, the feedback seeming to trigger an effect in the psionic priests similar to a combination of Cranial Deluge and Ultrablast.
Or, as one of our players said when they found out, "Pop goes the mind flayers!"
Other priests of other deities have found themselves without spells above 3rd level, and still others have suffered shock and even level loss.
I don't know what happened to Vhaeraun's spirits, though.
That could be perhaps how it happens with deities that don't share the same pantheon, as well.
I'm guessing we'll never know, since that kind of Lore is "bloat" and useless either as "phat lewtz" or "les kill im/les conqer it"
Whew! Thanks for the info. I already thought I might have to - think - when playing in the new Realms. I'm really dumb, you know - that's why the new kiddifed rules (magic missile always hits was just too complex for silly little me) and videogamey Realms are just the thing for me! :D Whoever played wizards in 3e D&D?!?! I'll take those simple brute classes, thank you very much.
We're gonna have such a blast killing the remaining NPCs left in the world!!! And gods too!
I've checked out manuscript so far, and we didn't explicitly say one way or the other. Since we haven't said it in print yet, I get to express my own opinion: Those souls would have returned to the Fugue plane, where Kelemvor re-assigned them as appropriate. I imagine that a fair number wound up in the domains of Selune or Shar. And some might have remained in the Fugue plane under Kelemvor's protection. Kelemvor's city is not a bad afterlife.
-So, in short, no, this was not something that was taken into account, at least this far. Of course, we are in the middle of May, and the physical books are due out in June and July, so...
-So, in short, no, this was not something that was taken into account, at least this far. Of course, we are in the middle of May, and the physical books are due out in June and July, so...
If I were in charge, I'd say the souls were annihilated along with Mystra and Savras, forever gone. Would make it all an even bigger crime.
If I were in charge, I'd say the souls were annihilated along with Mystra and Savras, forever gone. Would make it all an even bigger crime.
I would prefer that all the souls got absorbed by Dweomerheart, giving it a life and intelligence of its own. It would be a great place to vacation: a plane with the multiple personalities of thousands upon thousands of magically adept, apt to change manner and environment on a whim at any given moment.
Sounds like a place to adventure to me!
If I were in charge, I'd say the souls were annihilated along with Mystra and Savras, forever gone. Would make it all an even bigger crime.
I kind of like this. If the issue comes up in one of my games, I may use this unless the Campaign Setting says something to the contrary (I try to run my games as close to canon as possible
)If I were in charge, I'd say the souls were annihilated along with Mystra and Savras, forever gone. Would make it all an even bigger crime.
-That's what I'd say, too. That, or they lose their 'personality', so to speak, and just diffuse back into the "incarnum energy" that makes up the universe.
But arn't almost all the FR gods in 3E former mortals?
Shouldn't that highist of all goals exist atleast in potential for every adventuring PC?
Otherwise it would just be a case of "no matter how good you are, you'll never be as good as the mortals who became gods"...
I guess I'm of the opinion that in a high fantasy game nothing should be impossible.
And lets not forget the original Deities and Demigods book from 1st edition. It made the gods from mythology beatable. AND gave you rules on how to make a new godly realm.
This is not a concept new to 4e.
Twice, in some cases.
-Mind you, however, that just as we see the archetypical concept of 'G-d', so too do the people of Realmspace see their deities- omniscient, omnipotent, and so on. We know that's not the case, however. We don't like in Realmspace, though.
Not disputing that. It's an abstract concept though.
So, we, who are aware of the rules and the stats, know without a doubt, that an FR god can be killed.
Not disputing that. It's an abstract concept though.
So, we, who are aware of the rules and the stats, know without a doubt, that an FR god can be killed.
-Yep. Residents of Realmspace don't, however. Which is why those who "challenge" the deities themselves can be figurativley counted on a hand.
-Mind you, however, that just as we see the archetypical concept of 'G-d', so too do the people of Realmspace see their deities- omniscient, omnipotent, and so on.
I wouldn't say their idea of a god or gods is as powerful and all-knowing as many real world concepts are. There are several examples of deicide in the Realms and the people are well aware of these. They know the gods are immensely powerful yet vulnerable, to an extent.
I'm sure there are plenty of ambitious and foolhardy young and old adventurers who dream of becoming actual deities. At least in their wildest dreams.
I wouldn't say their idea of a god or gods is as powerful and all-knowing as many real world concepts are. There are several examples of deicide in the Realms and the people are well aware of these. They know the gods are immensely powerful yet vulnerable, to an extent.
I'm sure there are plenty of ambitious and foolhardy young and old adventurers who dream of becoming actual deities. At least in their wildest dreams.
-Remember, the average person is the dumb hick farmer, for the most part. ;)
But I'm sure even those dumb hick farmers hear the really big stories. What self-respecting bard wouldn't spread the word about a god or goddess dying?
Yet, "dumb hick farmers" do not have the talent or capacity to achieve the power to even challenge a deity. That is, unless they are working as a henchman for the man with the brains and just stumble into it through chosen leadership.
There are plenty out there today that watch the news, see what its like to be the all powerful president and think they are good enough for the job. How many can actually make that dream happen--let alone, even obtain a powerful position in a government office?
But I'm sure even those dumb hick farmers hear the really big stories. What self-respecting bard wouldn't spread the word about a god or goddess dying?
-Depends. There's a lot of factors at work. I mean, looking at an example in real life, how many of your "average" people across the world know much about the Gnostic gospels, and the legends/myths/facts that are the basis for them (Mary had a child with Jesus, fled to France, etc.)?
-Depends. There's a lot of factors at work. I mean, looking at an example in real life, how many of your "average" people across the world know much about the Gnostic gospels, and the legends/myths/facts that are the basis for them (Mary had a child with Jesus, fled to France, etc.)?
After The Da Vinci Code...? All of them? ;)
Yet, "dumb hick farmers" do not have the talent or capacity to achieve the power to even challenge a deity. That is, unless they are working as a henchman for the man with the brains and just stumble into it through chosen leadership.
There are plenty out there today that watch the news, see what its like to be the all powerful president and think they are good enough for the job. How many can actually make that dream happen--let alone, even obtain a powerful position in a government office?
This is true.
Remember however that the average person hears all of the big stories because of modern media. In a medieval style environment, or even up to 1800's, not all of the people were familiar with the 'news' beyond their locality.
This is true.
Remember however that the average person hears all of the big stories because of modern media. In a medieval style environment, or even up to 1800's, not all of the people were familiar with the 'news' beyond their locality.
True, as well. But, as Mula states, bards are the respective "media" in the Realms. Epic stories of such things not only get spread town-to-town by them, but also the people that hear them tell the stories. They then go to trade/adventure/politicize with other towns and spread them themselves.
With no weekly sitcoms, news shows, etc., new stories and lore would be something of a great commodity with everybody. Especially, those "epic" stories where good triumphs over evil ans such.
Why have fairy tales and Greek mythology stuck around to this very day? Some "bard" in ages past spun the tale, it was retold to others, retold to children, on so on....
-Depends. There's a lot of factors at work. I mean, looking at an example in real life, how many of your "average" people across the world know much about the Gnostic gospels, and the legends/myths/facts that are the basis for them (Mary had a child with Jesus, fled to France, etc.)?
A very poor comparison. You know that.
Myths and legends of a religion =/= the actual death of a deity and its church subsequently.A very poor comparison. You know that.
-I don't think so. I think it was a fairly "on" comparison, in a few respects:
-No matter what medium people here the information on (with us, we have the mass media, and in Faerûn, there'd be bards), some are not going to believe what they hear, no matter what evidence, or the lack thereof exists, based on preconcieved notions, and teachings from other sources (The Catholic Church and the Church of, say, Mystra) that say elsewise. Even in Faerûn, the dead of a deity, doesn't necessarily equate to the elimination of his/her church, though that usually happens. Remember, the Cult of Ao is still chugging along, as pitiable as it is.
After The Da Vinci Code...? All of them? ;)
-I'm not talking about the Da Vinci Code specifically, as a lot of that is fabricated fiction, as in the author made it up in his story, but I'm talking about the legends/myths/facts that exist independently of the book, that the book was based on. It's not my religion, so I am as ultimatley objective as one can come in my reasoning (meaning that I am not going to ignore certains facts/whatever because that negates fundamental teachings of the religion or whatever), but I am of the belief that the legends surrounding Jesus, Mary Magdalane, and Sarah are all true. Taking everything into account historically, it'd make more sense for it to be true than for it to not be true.
No matter what medium people here the information on (with us, we have the mass media, and in Faerûn, there'd be bards), some are not going to believe what they hear, no matter what evidence, or the lack thereof exists, based on preconcieved notions, and teachings from other sources (The Catholic Church and the Church of, say, Mystra) that say elsewise. Even in Faerûn, the dead of a deity, doesn't necessarily equate to the elimination of his/her church, though that usually happens. Remember, the Cult of Ao is still chugging along, as pitiable as it is.
That's all true, except that in the game world the gods are active and people -can- know if they truly exist. Certainly for Realmsians there is an objective reality where Mystra actually speaks to priests (and others), perhaps even manifests herself directly, and her goals and desires can be confirmed by the experience of others. So it's more than just a question of faith for them.
Granted, some Realmsian gods do go silent for a period of time, but with Mystra's death it was pretty obvious with the Spellplague cerulean fires and the reorganization of lands. Sure, some might deny it for a time (as there are cults who worship dead gods and don't know any better), but the knowledge of her death would be felt and known in real terms by PCs and NPCs.
Frankly, I think that's sort of interesting. It could explain why some of her faithful went mad (imagine losing your -deity- when you know it's objectively real... what would that do to one's psyche?). I'd be curious to know how they'll handle the discorporation and fall of her churches, how the faithful reacted, and what they had to do in order to go on living. When you know a god can be killed, and Cyric's punishment is a short term imprisonment, do other gods come to the "rescue" of the shattered faithful of her lost religion? And given that she was the goddess of magic, do people start distrusting magic as unreliable? All fairly interesting things, and lots of ways to go with it.
That's all true, except that in the game world the gods are active and people -can- know if they truly exist. Certainly for Realmsians there is an objective reality where Mystra actually speaks to priests (and others), perhaps even manifests herself directly, and her goals and desires can be confirmed by the experience of others. So it's more than just a question of faith for them.
-Indeed. But, would the Church of Mystra readily acknowledge this 'weakness'? Look at the actions of the Church of Lolth, during Lolth's Silence. Priestess' made absolutely sure that word did not leak out that Lolth was no longer granting them spells, or listening to their prayers. Things were clamped down, in the hope that the chink in their armor would not be discovered. That said, it was, and look at what happened. Drow society almost underwent a radical change in which males were very close to replacing females. In numerous Drow cities, patriarchies took control, and/or increased in relative influence and relative political power. In many regions and places, the Church of Mystra- like any church- wields and exerts political power. The first step that most organizations take when there is some kind of major "shake-up" is to clamp down on the flow of information, until it is decided how to handle things.
Granted, some Realmsian gods do go silent for a period of time, but with Mystra's death it was pretty obvious with the Spellplague cerulean fires and the reorganization of lands. Sure, some might deny it for a time (as there are cults who worship dead gods and don't know any better), but the knowledge of her death would be felt and known in real terms by PCs and NPCs.
-Take into account, however, the deaths of lesser known, less influential deities. Liera, for instance. She is dead, but, none the less, her church is still fairly active, as churches of dead deities go. Or Bhaal. Or Moander.
Frankly, I think that's sort of interesting. It could explain why some of her faithful went mad (imagine losing your -deity- when you know it's objectively real... what would that do to one's psyche?).
-It'd be akin to losing a spouse, I would think, but perhaps even on a deeper level. A common saying for people who take any interest on a very serious and deep level is that they are "married to...".
I'd be curious to know how they'll handle the discorporation and fall of her churches, how the faithful reacted, and what they had to do in order to go on living.
-Being as that the years between the 3e Forgotten Realms and the 4e Forgotten Realms are intentionally being "left blank", so to speak, coupled with the fact that we are only getting 3 sourcebooks, I don't think we'll ever have an official answer on that.
When you know a god can be killed, and Cyric's punishment is a short term imprisonment, do other gods come to the "rescue" of the shattered faithful of her lost religion?
-This certainly would depend on the deity in question.
And given that she was the goddess of magic, do people start distrusting magic as unreliable? All fairly interesting things, and lots of ways to go with it.
-Again, things that we are likely not to have official answers on. Unfortunatley.
-I don't think so. I think it was a fairly "on" comparison, in a few respects:
-No matter what medium people here the information on (with us, we have the mass media, and in Faerûn, there'd be bards), some are not going to believe what they hear, no matter what evidence, or the lack thereof exists, based on preconcieved notions, and teachings from other sources (The Catholic Church and the Church of, say, Mystra) that say elsewise. Even in Faerûn, the dead of a deity, doesn't necessarily equate to the elimination of his/her church, though that usually happens. Remember, the Cult of Ao is still chugging along, as pitiable as it is.
The people of Faerûn largely know that Bhaal, Myrkul, Leira, and Moander are dead. Thus, they know deities can die. They also know that some deities used to be mortal, Cyric and Kelemvor for example. Thus, they know even mortals can ascend to godhood.
Conclusion? The people of Faerûn don't view gods as all powerful and all knowing. They know the gods are powerful, but in certain circumstances their deities can die.
The people of Faerûn largely know that Bhaal, Myrkul, Leira, and Moander are dead. Thus, they know deities can die. They also know that some deities used to be mortal, Cyric and Kelemvor for example. Thus, they know even mortals can ascend to godhood.
-Of course, you just completely made up those "statistics".
-Indeed. But, would the Church of Mystra readily acknowledge this 'weakness'?
Initially, probably not. After all, the church would wield certain power in the everyday world of farmers and city dwellers, and religious leaders don't usually like to give that kind of thing up. It might've been an interesting time to adventure in, had they not made the century jump. A truly dark period, as all mages are lost without their powers (at first, anyway) and the Mystran church falls apart.
Look at the actions of the Church of Lolth, during Lolth's Silence. Priestess' made absolutely sure that word did not leak out that Lolth was no longer granting them spells, or listening to their prayers. Things were clamped down, in the hope that the chink in their armor would not be discovered.
I'm not so sure it worked, though (the clamping down/secrecy), as most drow seemed to know - especially the upper classes who had to defend their standing and property. They also had the advantage of Lolth always having been mercurial, and retention of magic and magic items (the upper classes seemed to have pools of items to draw upon). Many drow would probably think, "another of Lolth's games" and just be uncertain about when (not if) she would return.
That said, it was, and look at what happened. Drow society almost underwent a radical change in which males were very close to replacing females. In numerous Drow cities, patriarchies took control, and/or increased in relative influence and relative political power.
True, it's one of the reasons I liked the series so much. I loved the analogy someone made about millions of newborn spiders feeding on each other as they tried to deal with what was happening.
In many regions and places, the Church of Mystra- like any church- wields and exerts political power. The first step that most organizations take when there is some kind of major "shake-up" is to clamp down on the flow of information, until it is decided how to handle things.
Usually, yes.
Take into account, however, the deaths of lesser known, less influential deities. Liera, for instance. She is dead, but, none the less, her church is still fairly active, as churches of dead deities go. Or Bhaal. Or Moander.
Leira seems like a tricky example, though. As the lady of mists and the goddess of deception and illusion, it's completely understandable that her faithful would question her death, perhaps even think her "faked death" was a triumph of deception and illusion. And who knows, really, perhaps Leira -is- still alive and is letting Cyric use her portfolio for her own purposes? Heh, no I know that's a reach, but it might be an interesting route for adventures in someone's personal FR game.
On a slightly different note, I'm not sure I've ever seen rules for transferring or absorbing a deity's portfolio (although I'm not a rulebook collector). Jergal seems to have handed his portfolios over, and AO has transferred several portfolios while bringing mortals to an ascended state (part of his job, maybe?). The one clear exception that comes to mind (in my pre-coffee state) is Eilistraee absorbing Vhaeraun's portfolio, and I liked how that was handled in the books.
Part of me wondered why the portfolio transferred, though; did AO secretly have a hand in it, or does killing another deity automatically transfer a portfolio? When the mages did what they did to Kiaransalee, where did her portfolio "go", and why? Some actual game rules on this might be interesting and fun to see. Especially since 4E seems even more geared toward easier epic play.
It'd be akin to losing a spouse, I would think, but perhaps even on a deeper level. A common saying for people who take any interest on a very serious and deep level is that they are "married to...".
I agree, that seems quite likely.
Being as that the years between the 3e Forgotten Realms and the 4e Forgotten Realms are intentionally being "left blank", so to speak, coupled with the fact that we are only getting 3 sourcebooks, I don't think we'll ever have an official answer on that.
Probably.
I'm not so sure it worked, though (the clamping down/secrecy), as most drow seemed to know - especially the upper classes who had to defend their standing and property. They also had the advantage of Lolth always having been mercurial, and retention of magic and magic items (the upper classes seemed to have pools of items to draw upon).
-This is partly because of the who the Drow are, and the unique structure of Drow society as being firmly enmeshed in the web of Lolth, being as close to a monothestic culture as possible in a pantheistic setting.
Leira seems like a tricky example, though. As the lady of mists and the goddess of deception and illusion, it's completely understandable that her faithful would question her death, perhaps even think her "faked death" was a triumph of deception and illusion. And who knows, really, perhaps Leira -is- still alive and is letting Cyric use her portfolio for her own purposes? Heh, no I know that's a reach, but it might be an interesting route for adventures in someone's personal FR game.
-Well, there you go. Now, extrapolating from that example, what's to stop the faithful of Mystra from believing that the Spellplague/Wacky Magic, and all of that that began upon Mystra's death was not because of her death, but was because she was altering herself/the Weave to protect it, or because she was wounded, but retained enough power to save herself, but barely, or...
On a slightly different note, I'm not sure I've ever seen rules for transferring or absorbing a deity's portfolio (although I'm not a rulebook collector). Jergal seems to have handed his portfolios over, and AO has transferred several portfolios while bringing mortals to an ascended state (part of his job, maybe?). The one clear exception that comes to mind (in my pre-coffee state) is Eilistraee absorbing Vhaeraun's portfolio, and I liked how that was handled in the books.
Part of me wondered why the portfolio transferred, though; did AO secretly have a hand in it, or does killing another deity automatically transfer a portfolio? When the mages did what they did to Kiaransalee, where did her portfolio "go", and why? Some actual game rules on this might be interesting and fun to see. Especially since 4E seems even more geared toward easier epic play.
-There aren't any rules, per se, as in D&D rules. The unwritten rule in the Forgotten Realms is that Ao approves/disapproves all ascentions/descentions/mergers/transfers/etc.
-Of course, you just completely made up those "statistics".
Yup. Just like the Realms are "made up".
Yup. Just like the Realms are "made up".
-Right, they are. Which doesn't change anything that was said.
Some folks think they're like awesomely powerful mortals, with all the weaknesses mortals got. Others think gods are beyond mortals flaws or comprehension. Page 232 under "Worship".
Well, there you go. Now, extrapolating from that example, what's to stop the faithful of Mystra from believing that the Spellplague/Wacky Magic, and all of that that began upon Mystra's death was not because of her death, but was because she was altering herself/the Weave to protect it, or because she was wounded, but retained enough power to save herself, but barely, or...
Yep, all of that's possible too. It'd be the impetus for a number of heresies, and those are always great fodder for adventures.
Let's say in 1479 that one of these heretical groups not only refused to believe in her death, but has been actively working from the moment of the Spellplague to restore her. It'd be even more fun if the group's leader embraced lichdom in an effort to extend his life long enough to put all of his plans in motion. Formerly a priest of Mystra, now a lich and a "new-magic" archmage to boot, he (or she) has gathered old Mystran artifacts as part of an Epic level ritual. Over the past century, the group has diligently hunted down people with specific spellscar effects and collected their remains (let's say, nine spellscarred body parts for each aspect of the old Mystra; or nine powerful spellscar effects related to the old schools of magic, or eight... given that eight stars make up the last Mystra's symbol... something on that order).
It wouldn't necessarily have to follow real logic precicely, especially if the lich went insane. And the only thing holding his/her mind together is the obsession of completing the Epic ritual. If the players fail, the Epic ritual might create a new (and evil) monster made purely of magical energy. Or it might allow the lich to ascend as the new (evil) god/dess of magic. Or perhaps after killing the lich a PC might be tempted to try the Epic ritual and ascend. Lots of crazy possibilities there.
I guess turning to sourcebooks really helps with Realms related questions.
-Crazy, that. Who wouldda thunk, huh?
it usually means designers couldn't think of anything more creative to do to usher in another version of D&D
I've seen a lot of things flying back and forth about why they shouldn't have killed Mystra and opinions on how it makes sense. I have to say that personally I've been uneasy about the whole thing, back in the day my first introduction into the realms was a friend handing me one of the Drizz't novels to read, but it was the Elminster books and Mystra that truly made the setting my all time favorite fantasy setting. Which leads me to the point of this post.
The ideas and opinions in this have been interesting, but i would like to propose this question to you all: When a god(dess) dies... can they be resurrected? (and i dont mean by Ao)
i'm working on a character concept i plan to play in the first 4E FR campaign i can find, and his ultimate goal will be just that, to bring back Mystra, as i personally refuse to play in a FR without my dear Lady of Mysteries.;)
When a god(dess) dies...
it usually means designers couldn't think of anything more creative to do to usher in another version of D&D
-Not necessarily. Like anything else, it's a matter of "How it's done".
The ideas and opinions in this have been interesting, but i would like to propose this question to you all: When a god(dess) dies... can they be resurrected? (and i dont mean by Ao)
-Yes. Ao resurrected Torm at the end of the Time of Troubles. So, there is precident.
i'm working on a character concept i plan to play in the first 4E FR campaign i can find, and his ultimate goal will be just that, to bring back Mystra, as i personally refuse to play in a FR without my dear Lady of Mysteries.;)
-There is no doubt that in my mind, WotC will release adventures/novels/whatever that tease the return of Mystra, at some point. I don't think that she'll be actually brought back, as apparently she unravels 4e Forgotten Realms, but there is no doubt they'd ignore something like that.
-There is no doubt that in my mind, WotC will release adventures/novels/whatever that tease the return of Mystra, at some point. I don't think that she'll be actually brought back, as apparently she unravels 4e Forgotten Realms, but there is no doubt they'd ignore something like that.
well, it was my understanding that it was the weave (for whatever reason) that didn't fit with 4e, so maybe they can bring her back as a goddess of magic without the weave? i know she WAS the weave so i don't know how much i like that idea, but it'd be better than no Mystra at all, at least that's what i think.
well, it was my understanding that it was the weave (for whatever reason) that didn't fit with 4e, so maybe they can bring her back as a goddess of magic without the weave? i know she WAS the weave so i don't know how much i like that idea, but it'd be better than no Mystra at all, at least that's what i think.
A lot of people believe she will be brought back for certain reasons. With Eliminster being a headcase, it is quite possible--just like Bane's transition from 2e to 3e.
Mad Fool: I cast an 11th level epic spell that merges a positive energy plane with a negative energy plane resulting in a catastrophic explosion!
Mystra: You can't do that
Mad Fool: I... what? but, it says right here
Mystra: I know what it says, I wrote it, but you can't do that
Mad Fool: Well then I'm going back in time so I can prevent...
Mystra: NO! what part of "no time travel" are you having problems with?
bringing back Mystra after the cow is out of the barn (to mix metaphors) would be interesting...
Mystra: Well that was weird, I think I hold the record for shortest time served as a goddess before being killed and... HOLY HELL! what happened to the weave!?
Spell-scarred Mad Fool: Oh that, well, we use magic like THIS now. Look, I can cast mage hand at will now
Mystra: That's... well that is kind of neat I guess. As long as it isn't too powerful, how much can you ...?
Spell-scarred Mad Fool: five pounds, and unattended objects only
Mystra: Unattended? like you can't Jedi weapons out of people hands or anything
Spell-scarred Mad Fool: nah, that would be sweet though
Mystra: What is all the blue on you?
Spell-scarred Mad Fool: oh that is my spell scar. A genetic trait that crept into the gene pool when you died
A lot of people believe she will be brought back for certain reasons. With Eliminster being a headcase, it is quite possible--just like Bane's transition from 2e to 3e.
Well, i guess i assumed Elminster wouldn't let anything happen to Mystra without getting involved and probably dieing in the process. While i feel Mystra is vital to the setting, i think its about time for El to enjoy his just rewards, he's done enough for the prime material.
My interpretation was a goddess of magic was always necessary in order to keep mad fools like Karsus (character, not the poster) from destroying the world with reckless use of magic. After Mystryl, Mystra became a surrogate DM.
Mad Fool: I cast an 11th level epic spell that merges a positive energy plane with a negative energy plane resulting in a catastrophic explosion!
Mystra: You can't do that
Mad Fool: I... what? but, it says right here
Mystra: I know what it says, I wrote it, but you can't do that
Mad Fool: Well then I'm going back in time so I can prevent...
Mystra: NO! what part of "no time travel" are you having problems with?
bringing back Mystra after the cow is out of the barn (to mix metaphors) would be interesting...
Mystra: Well that was weird, I think I hold the record for shortest time served as a goddess before being killed and... HOLY HELL! what happened to the weave!?
Spell-scarred Mad Fool: Oh that, well, we use magic like THIS now. Look, I can cast mage hand at will now
Mystra: That's... well that is kind of neat I guess. As long as it isn't too powerful, how much can you ...?
Spell-scarred Mad Fool: five pounds, and unattended objects only
Mystra: Unattended? like you can't Jedi weapons out of people hands or anything
Spell-scarred Mad Fool: nah, that would be sweet though
Mystra: What is all the blue on you?
Spell-scarred Mad Fool: oh that is my spell scar. A genetic trait that crept into the gene pool when you died
that does bring some interesting possibilities to mind, if they do bring her back in the novels i cant wait for her reactions to the changes.
i also just realized that your conversation would most likely happen with my character being the spell-scarred mad fool... now i'm gonna have to make him blue, i hope your happy... :P
Well, i guess i assumed Elminster wouldn't let anything happen to Mystra without getting involved and probably dieing in the process. While i feel Mystra is vital to the setting, i think its about time for El to enjoy his just rewards, he's done enough for the prime material.
Too many people love the guy. He's stickin' 'round. And he will be here for parlor tricks.
well, it was my understanding that it was the weave (for whatever reason) that didn't fit with 4e, so maybe they can bring her back as a goddess of magic without the weave? i know she WAS the weave so i don't know how much i like that idea, but it'd be better than no Mystra at all, at least that's what i think.
-Yes, as per the Designers, Mystra and the Weave were incapatable with 4e, Of course, Mystra and the Weave were 100% "fluff" that had no impact whatsoever on the mechanical rules, so...But, they know best, right?
-Yes, as per the Designers, Mystra and the Weave were incapatable with 4e, Of course, Mystra and the Weave were 100% "fluff" that had no impact whatsoever on the mechanical rules, so...But, they know best, right?
Well, they might not know "best" but it's their product, so I'll learn to live with their decisions.
Well, they might not know "best" but it's their product, so I'll learn to live with their decisions.
-Yup.
