A while back I asked something to Mr Greenwood about :
the weave is the essence of mystra, and all magical items from that time were created with the weave.
it was a three part question, but the last one was something like
with all the magical items Elminster fed the Symbul, and the combined fragments of the weave combined within her, does she become the next Mystra?
or something like that, anyway.
the first twwo were yes and yes.
the last was NDA.
so as far as we can tell you, read Elminster must Die and draw your own conclusions
Praise the Art
Unofficially? IMO, Mystra can be reborn if someone manages to harvest all of the areas of active Spellplague and find a vessel that can hold them.
So, can anyone say "Body of Karse" and "Pyramids of Ascore"?
Hopefully never.
Shhh, WoTC likes to listen to the lone voice in the woods. I for one hope that they bring here back because to me Mystra WAS the Realms. Not having her around (whatever her incarnation) makes it not feel like the Realms but a poor pathetic copy.
Hopefully never.
+ one biiiillion.
we wany mystra back, just not midnight
Hopefully never.
Blasphemy!!!
Yes, I agree, it's a BLASPHEMY!!!!
And, frankly, I'd really like it if Mystryl came back!!!
Thus far, she's only returned once, at that was at the end of the game.
Wow... guess a lot of people here hadn't read Elminster Must Die! yet.
That's because he really must die, but we know he's not so what's the point in reading it?
what was the point of the conversation
why have we not wone the lotto yet
why has Sazz not seen what BAne was really doing
what was Cyric smoking and why did he not share it with shar
Torm take ye!!
Wow... guess a lot of people here hadn't read Elminster Must Die! yet.
I'm going to read it when it's out in paperback.
However, from what Ed hinted, the event you are talking about is not Mystra. Then again, I didn't get the full conversation and am too lazy too look it up.
Gomez
@Gomez: The conversation I'm talking about is the discussion on the Epilogue in the book.
Storm is awakened by a voice in her head (not in her ears) that she is sure is - - MUST be - - Mystra
is the one that I'm taking to mean she recognizes the voice as he mother.
forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=...
Scroll down to THO's post of Oct 4th, 2010. It's a MAJOR SPOILER which appears to answer the question of Mystra's survival, without much room to debate.
Rarely does THO (or Ed Greenwood for that matter) provide such a clear answer. Or is it? HAHAHA!
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If they do repair the Realms in a way that suits us I will come back, I LOVE the setting. Eilistraee was too much, Mystra (again) was way too much. If they make Selune the new goddess of magic, and move her back to a higher power status, I could live with that. We don't have any good drow in our campaign but we had good relations with the followers of Eilistraee. I don't agree that the Seldarine are not a good fit.
@Dragon9: Elminster will die right after Drizzt.
Ain't that the truth?
Edit: Elminster and Drizzt will never die as they have too much Mary Sue and Plot Armor between them. Not even a moon could kill them.
The only thing they haven't completely screwed up is Kara-Tur, and that's because they haven't said a word about it.
The only thing they haven't completely screwed up is Kara-Tur, and that's because they haven't said a word about it.
QFT, lol.
The only thing they haven't completely screwed up is Kara-Tur, and that's because they haven't said a word about it.
Actually, I seem to recall something about Kara-Tur... ah. Okay, I found it in the FRCG. Here it is (page 143):
EASTERN LANDS
The Endless Wastes give way to the young Tuigan kingdom of Yaïmunnahar and the continent of Kara-Tur, neither of which are shown on most Faerûnian maps. Kozakura and Shou Lung are great nations within Kara-Tur, and the Spellplague was at least as destructive there as it was in Faerûn. In the last hundred years more immigrants from Kara-Tur have begun to settle in Yaïmunnahar and Faerûn, bringing their cultures and unorthodox fighting styles with them.
I underlined the most important part.
Killing Mystra was the single best thing to ever happen to the realms. If they ever bring her back that will be a complete travesty.
snipped out yer edit.
not true.
its nothing more than a cardboard repeating disease.
they axed the deity of magic twice before, and its not the fans of the deity of magic, it just is how they are written.
Midnight was a joke though
What goes aound, comes around.
Mystras already back, she never went anywhere, she just needs a new mortal vessel is all.
Srsly?
A long time ago Karsus wanted to be the god of magic, but it was 'too much' for a mortal to handle. Then they give it to some girl who happened to be standing there when the original Mystra died. Now they're going to give it to the first one to find all the pieces of the MacGuffin?
Creating a spell not seen on Toril before or since isn't good enough, Karsus, you have to win the scavenger hunt. :facepalm:
Mystic_Lemur-
It's actually much worse than that. Karsus was one of the most magically gifted and intelligent individuals to ever live in Faerûn - definitely in the top ten, and somewhere near the top three at that. Sure, he was probably arrogant and was overreaching - find me a wizard who doesn't fit at least one of those criteria. So, Mystryl commits suicide and her divine essence falls from the sky and it literally smacks a mentally challenged farm girl in the head who becomes Mystra. Mind you, the second version of Mystra was so mentally challenged that she had to be cared for by others. That's like a kick in the balls to Karsus.
During the Time of Troubles it's pretty clear that Mystra 2.0 reverted back to her old self prior to becoming a deity, because she stupidly gets killed. That's when Midnight becomes Mystra 3.0, and it wasn't exactly as if Midnight was all that 'worthy' of being a deity herself. That's pretty much proven in how she ultimately ends up getting ganked by Cyric.
If Mystra returns this will make Mystra 4.0, and the third time Karsus is mocked from the grave.
Poor fool. 
Mystic_Lemur-
It's actually much worse than that. Karsus was one of the most magically gifted and intelligent individuals to ever live in Faerûn - definitely in the top ten, and somewhere near the top three at that. Sure, he was probably arrogant and was overreaching - find me a wizard who doesn't fit at least one of those criteria. So, Mystryl commits suicide and her divine essence falls from the sky and it literally smacks a mentally challenged farm girl in the head who becomes Mystra. Mind you, the second version of Mystra was so mentally challenged that she had to be cared for by others. That's like a kick in the balls to Karsus.
During the Time of Troubles it's pretty clear that Mystra 2.0 reverted back to her old self prior to becoming a deity, because she stupidly gets killed. That's when Midnight becomes Mystra 3.0, and it wasn't exactly as if Midnight was all that 'worthy' of being a deity herself. That's pretty much proven in how she ultimately ends up getting ganked by Cyric.
If Mystra returns this will make Mystra 4.0, and the third time Karsus is mocked from the grave.
Poor fool.
Where did the lore come from that she was some mentally challenged farm girl?
Where did the lore come from that she was some mentally challenged farm girl?
I'm 98% sure it came from Ed Greenwood years ago over at Candlekeep - although I couldn't immediately find it. I'll keep looking though, and if I do find it I'll post a link.
It appears Ed went even further than I remembered. He didn't call her "mentally challenged" as I did - he called her "mindless" and "drooling." Here is the quote in full:
In the case of Mystryl, she sacrificed herself, not foreseeing that she’d be reborn. She had no Chosen or preselected mortal vessel, and did not know or intend that she’d “live on.” She simply did what she believed she had to do, to end a threat to the world she loved.However, the circumstances of her passing prevented other deities from snaring her divine power, and largely prevented its dispersal, and it “fell like a dying star” to earth (or so the priests of Mystra say) to at random strike and “go into” a mindless, drooling mortal woman and infuse her with Mystryl’s divinity, so that she became Mystra. (Of course, clergy of Mystra speak of the woman being present and selected as “divine fate” and not random at all, but this is one of the Holy Mysteries of the Lady of Mysteries that only high-ranking clergy are allowed to discuss in detail; lay worshippers and non-believers won’t get much more out of a priest of Mystra than this: “When Mystryl made the ultimate and most holy sacrifice that defended Toril itself, that which was best of her fell to earth, and struck a mortal woman, and went into her, and Mystryl was reborn as Mystra, as she was fated to do, that we may all have magic that serves us and not the howling chaos of wild magic spellstorms.”
We don’t know anything about the mortal woman who became Mystra other than these things: she was young, she was “mindless” (for reasons unknown; it may have been a birth defect or a later affliction), she was a poor rural unknown somewhere in the northern, western Heartlands being cared for by kin, and she was changed in looks and stature by Mystra’s “going in” to her. I’d say more, but NDAs forbid.
Here is the link that I promised.
Also, while on my search I stumbled upon something else relevant to the topic being discussed.
Hello again, fellow scribes. Ed herewith makes reply to MaskedOne’s recent “semi-related questions,” to whit: “What would probably have occurred if the Karsus Avatar spell had been permitted to reach completion rather than Mystril suiciding to counter-act it? What did Mystril believe would occur if the spell was permitted to go on?”Dagnirion posted a suggestion, but Ed’s reply differs:
Ascension to godhood under those circumstances would have stolen power from all of the gods (to achieve the ascension and make Karsus a god, and to give him divine power), in a surge that Mystril was very much afraid (and probably rightly) that Karsus would have been unable to handle, mentally and physically, so he’d have promptly been ruined and the magic would have “surged” back and forth around Toril, doing great damage and spawning many wild magic “storms.”
She was also afraid that if Karsus succeeded in any way (survived, no matter how damaged), all of the other Netherese archwizards would have tried it too - - and collectively torn the fabric of the Prime Material asunder, destroying Realmspace and everything in it, or at least twisting it beyond all recognition and smashing all life cycles and ecosystems, dooming uncounted millions of living things to slow extinction. And all so one demonstrably proud, foolish, and cruel madman could have the shining toy he wanted, but couldn’t understand.
Here is the link to that.
It will also be an incredibly stupid move and just prove the character is just a Mary-Sue.
Muhaha! Do not underestimate my Google-fu! I found it.It appears Ed went even further than I remembered. He didn't call her "mentally challenged" as I did - he called her "mindless" and "drooling." Here is the quote in full:
In the case of Mystryl, she sacrificed herself, not foreseeing that she’d be reborn. She had no Chosen or preselected mortal vessel, and did not know or intend that she’d “live on.” She simply did what she believed she had to do, to end a threat to the world she loved.However, the circumstances of her passing prevented other deities from snaring her divine power, and largely prevented its dispersal, and it “fell like a dying star” to earth (or so the priests of Mystra say) to at random strike and “go into” a mindless, drooling mortal woman and infuse her with Mystryl’s divinity, so that she became Mystra. (Of course, clergy of Mystra speak of the woman being present and selected as “divine fate” and not random at all, but this is one of the Holy Mysteries of the Lady of Mysteries that only high-ranking clergy are allowed to discuss in detail; lay worshippers and non-believers won’t get much more out of a priest of Mystra than this: “When Mystryl made the ultimate and most holy sacrifice that defended Toril itself, that which was best of her fell to earth, and struck a mortal woman, and went into her, and Mystryl was reborn as Mystra, as she was fated to do, that we may all have magic that serves us and not the howling chaos of wild magic spellstorms.”
We don’t know anything about the mortal woman who became Mystra other than these things: she was young, she was “mindless” (for reasons unknown; it may have been a birth defect or a later affliction), she was a poor rural unknown somewhere in the northern, western Heartlands being cared for by kin, and she was changed in looks and stature by Mystra’s “going in” to her. I’d say more, but NDAs forbid.Here is the link that I promised.
Also, while on my search I stumbled upon something else relevant to the topic being discussed.
Hello again, fellow scribes. Ed herewith makes reply to MaskedOne’s recent “semi-related questions,” to whit: “What would probably have occurred if the Karsus Avatar spell had been permitted to reach completion rather than Mystril suiciding to counter-act it? What did Mystril believe would occur if the spell was permitted to go on?”Dagnirion posted a suggestion, but Ed’s reply differs:
Ascension to godhood under those circumstances would have stolen power from all of the gods (to achieve the ascension and make Karsus a god, and to give him divine power), in a surge that Mystril was very much afraid (and probably rightly) that Karsus would have been unable to handle, mentally and physically, so he’d have promptly been ruined and the magic would have “surged” back and forth around Toril, doing great damage and spawning many wild magic “storms.”
She was also afraid that if Karsus succeeded in any way (survived, no matter how damaged), all of the other Netherese archwizards would have tried it too - - and collectively torn the fabric of the Prime Material asunder, destroying Realmspace and everything in it, or at least twisting it beyond all recognition and smashing all life cycles and ecosystems, dooming uncounted millions of living things to slow extinction. And all so one demonstrably proud, foolish, and cruel madman could have the shining toy he wanted, but couldn’t understand.Here is the link to that.
Excellent, thanks for the link.
It will also be an incredibly stupid move and just prove the character is just a Mary-Sue.
Did you just claim that a GODDESS is a Mary Sue Character?
Why do I keep coming back to these boards....
Come on. I mean... really?
Did anyone here HONESTLY believe that Mystra was going to stay dead? I knew right from the moment she was declared dead that they'd bring her back somehow. Never forget the First Law Of Resurrection.
We all know that Mystra has Contractual Immortality - she will always be back in one form or another. It doesn't matter if she's some disembodied voice inside some crazy man's head, she'll find a way to claw herself back. She always does and she always will. She is the Kenny of the Realms. I'm just waiting for the following dialog to appear in a Realms novel:
Mystra's Chosen #1817: Oh no, they killed Mystra!
Elminster: You bastards!
...and yes, I do love TV Tropes.
It will also be an incredibly stupid move and just prove the character is just a Mary-Sue.
Did you just claim that a GODDESS is a Mary Sue Character?
Why do I keep coming back to these boards....
I ask myself this very question
Mystrawars between her clones could be really fun...
Yes, a goddess who keeps springing back to life through incredibly ridiculous narrative elements can indeed be described as a Mary-Sue. Just as much as any other similar kind of authors pet.
So Bane isn't a Mary-sue because he didn't comback under the 'ridiculous narrative elements' clause.
ooooo Mask is going to be a Mary-Sue in a few years! Hooray for Mask!
Here is a good one for everyone to enjoy. Any Deity/Primordial/Immortal in the D&D game system or novels is a Mary-Sue because they are a Deity/Primordial/Immortal.
But wait there is more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This one is even better....every player character raised from dead or resurrected is a Mary-Sue!!!
The next time my DM allows me to raise a character and uses a narrative element at the game table, I will stand up and yell, "My character ain't a Mary-Sue!! Curse you forever!!"
Then I'm going to tear up the character sheet, burn the peices, then erase the DM's DDi account.
Just to be sure my character will never come back as a Mary-sue.
Bahwahahahahahahahahaha!
Why do I keep coming back to these boards....
I ask myself this very question
Well, it supplies *my* daily dose of the crazy. :D
I'd really be interested in seeing an actual, unbiased poll as to whether people want Mystra to come back or not. People seem pretty polarized about it.
Cheers
Too much overall damage to the Realms has been done, in both "making it compatible" and in retconning~reinterpreting past history. I respect a few of the current designers, like Eric, but if I'm going to be "working with what remains" then I might as well just make a completely divergent Realms of my own and not even try to fit with this design team's agenda.
I'm quite happy to play with my 1E Realms that has a few tacked on things from 2E and 3E. I use what I like, and have no need for the rest. I can have a Mystryl where there was never a "Karsus incident," I can completely ignore the Time of Troubles as some sort of fever dream, and I can totally reject everything from 4E.
Why do I keep coming back to these boards....
I ask myself this very question
Well, it supplies *my* daily dose of the crazy. :D I'd really be interested in seeing an actual, unbiased poll as to whether people want Mystra to come back or not. People seem pretty polarized about it. Cheers
There is no real way to answer this you see.
To most Mystra/Midnight is all they know, and we all h8 her guts.
Mystra from the elminster trilogy on the otherhand was well written.
Nuetral as a goddess of magic should be and who is the one Mystra I want back
Well, it supplies *my* daily dose of the crazy. :D I'd really be interested in seeing an actual, unbiased poll as to whether people want Mystra to come back or not. People seem pretty polarized about it. Cheers
I largely agree with Jorunhast. I don't really care if they bring her back at this point, I've abandoned the cannon Realms and thus it has exactly zero impact on me. Although I've moved my Realms into the 4E Era, pretty much my Realms began to diverge in EXTREME ways after the Spellplague hit. I took the opportunity to "fix" some of the problems I had with the setting that weren't even touched upon (some were actually magnified) in the cannon 4E Realms.
Although I disagree with many of the changes made to the Realms, I wasn't a detractor of the changes... perhaps largely because the Realms already had a number of "problems" with it prior to the edition change and in my view they couldn't really make it worse. A lot of the changes made were the logical extension of the "problems" I already found in the setting.
Mystra for me was never THE problem with the Realms, she was a symptom of a much larger and deeper problem. She often received much of my ire, but that was just because she was visible and well known.
I think my love of the Realms can best be described in terms of a romantic relationship. When you first fall in love there is a period of time where you are completely blind to every fault the other individual possesses. They're perfection. The One. Primate instincts blind you, and you literally get high off of being in the other persons presence. Every moment you spend with them is amazing.
Eventually, time passes and the emotional high you experience with the other person wears off. That is when you begin to notice little things - small imperfections in them that you were previously blinded too.
First, you realize your friends were right. You thought their laugh was adorable, but after hearing it the millionth time it is very grating... no its worse than that, it's like listening to nails on a chalkboard while simultaneously having broken glass rubbed all over your eardrums.
Second, you realize that they are never on time. In the beginning you didn't mind. There was some minor enjoyment in the anticipation. It gave you a chance to get your thoughts together and to make sure everything was perfect for their arrival. Now, it's just an annoyance. You've been waiting for thirty minutes and they haven't even bothered to call and let you know what's taking them so long. You wonder why you're being disrespected.
Third, you realize that they're a total slob. In the beginning you bought their excuse. Sure, they are rather busy, but really... those dishes were in the sink LAST WEEK. It's simply gross. ...and you vomit in your mouth a little when you realize that the milk in their fridge is way past its expiration date. You make a mental note to NEVER eat at their place again. In fact, you need a shower now after leaving.
Then you begin to fight. First it is over stupid stuff. Then it is over more serious stuff. You agree to take a break. Then you both agree that its permanent. Suddenly, you feel liberated and free. You can't remember what you even saw in them in the beginning, but now you're free again to do your own thing without being weighed down by them and their needs.
The Realms and I have gone through all these stages together. At first I fell in love. I was blind to every fault that existed. Then that love faded and I took a more critical look at the setting and noticed its many blemishes and imperfections. I wanted the Realms to be perfect, so I convinced myself that it was me that was the problem, not the setting. I tried to make it work. Then I realized that, no it wasn't me, it was the setting. I agonized over what was broken, I did a lot of heartfelt searching trying to determine EXACTLY what I wanted...
In the end, 4th Edition came out. It was the final straw. Divorce papers were filed. The Realms got to keep the kids, and I got to keep the dog. It was an amicable parting. We're still really great friends, and even love each other in our own way. It's just that we're too different in all the wrong ways.
So what did I do? I drew upon my considerable amount of knowledge of Realms lore to fix what I thought was broken. I didn't bother to follow the Realms into 4E though I did draw in some inspiration. The end result is that I got the setting that I wanted all along, and I live happily ever after.
Seriously, that is the reason I come to those boards.
Why do I keep coming back to these boards....
I ask myself this very question
Well, it supplies *my* daily dose of the crazy. :D I'd really be interested in seeing an actual, unbiased poll as to whether people want Mystra to come back or not. People seem pretty polarized about it. Cheers
There is no real way to answer this you see.
To most Mystra/Midnight is all they know, and we all h8 her guts.
Mystra from the elminster trilogy on the otherhand was well written.
Nuetral as a goddess of magic should be and who is the one Mystra I want back
Please don't do this politician tactic and claim to speak for everyone else. I never hated any of the versions of Mystra. Personally I thought it was a travisty to rid the Realms of a god(ess) of magic. But if they plan on bringing her/him back, then no harm no foul.
Frankly though I don't see how any of this affects the gamers because they control their own narrative (well the DM's do). It's the novel readers who have no control over the narrative. Just my two cents.
I took what good many said about how each god was written,,,, and still many call mystra marry sue
I think Mystra was written well, but Mystra/Midinight always sounded like she was incompotent
Eventually, time passed and I did start to notice little things, weird tendencies. Every week, it seemed that she needed yet another real-world allegory, or a connection to "friends" that I didn't always like. She needed her own crystal sphere and constantly invited over her Planescape buddies... and the shopping, so many new supplements. But it was okay, I could ignore it for the most part and let her branch out. I didn't need to hang out with all her new friends.
But the more it went on, I realized my friends were right. She was an allegory hog, and the kitchen sink was full to overflowing. Maztica, Mulhorand, Kara-Tur, and aberrations from the outer planes were always hanging out now, and I hate to say it, but frankly... she was getting fat. Really immensely fat, because she ate everything.
So she went on this crazy diet. I tried to support her, but this "Time of Troubles" just magnified a lot of the problems she had rather than repaired them. She went a little nuts, getting rid of some really good things about herself and introducing some really horrible things that made her life worse. The suicide attempt by Mystra thankfully didn't work out, but her personality was forever changed. She started hanging out with some new friends, some real nutjobs like Cyric. She had to be connected to every new fad that came down the pike. And sadly, she was still fat.
So we had a brief separation, not just because she was gigantic and never emptied that kitchen sink. She started doing RSEs. Initially, you think that an RSE is fun and experimental, you do it with friends. But they're expensive and can ultimately damage you. Badly. Sometimes, I could see her original self, when she wasn't having one of her "RSE" addiction binges, but with RSE's there really can be "one too many times" for one person to handle. But fame, particularly maintaining fame, meant that she had to keep doing RSEs, at least in her mind.
I did keep in touch. I read her letters and novels, at least the ones that weren't batshit crazy, and for a brief time it seemed like she was actually going to get some help and reorganize her life. She promised change for the better, swearing to cut out all the overindulged areas of her life and she even said she'd go into rehab for the RSE problem. I had hope for her.
But then of course, she had the grand-daddy of RSE relapses. This time, she was clinically dead (briefly) from a successful Mystra suicide, and we found out that she'd had some kind of bipolar fit and had repainted her house in clashing vibrant colors. She eventually revealed a split personality with "Abeir," and her mind was newly filled with crazy dragon-people and demons, and even some outright Far Realms aberrations that no one could understand. She insisted that some deities she had known "never really existed" or were other deities in disguise all along. Logic had fled her mind, it seemed.
There must have been some oxygen loss to her brain, because right after leaving the hospital she cut off all ties to her former life (screaming, "the past is DEAD TO ME!"), went on a killing spree (even killing some of her most supportive and likeable NPCs), and she just looked completely wretched. She looked 100 years older, and seemed soulless and empty. And she was thin again. But way too thin, really. Chunks of rock were practically floating in her hair, and she seemed to think this was a good thing. As if it made her "edgy" or cool in some way. But it was just sad.
And of course, it didn't help that I started hanging out with other settings. Nice, stable settings that were younger and prettier. Initially, I tried to make it work. Then I tried to stay friends. But in the end, divorce was inevitable with so many radical changes in her character and her attempts to stay popular with people who didn't really seem to respect her core self. She changed too often, too much, and I hardly recognize the setting I fell in love with so many years ago.
that was a well read post
Well, she was only a goddess for what? 20-30 years?
Why do I keep coming back to these boards....
I ask myself that same question quite a bit these days...
I put it down to some latent masochistic tendencies.
(And how did you both hit the nail on the head when describing my Ex? Have you met her or something?? ;) )
Corellon and Selune are better 'magic gods' anyway. Less 'I am In Charge of this and I can do whatever I want', more 'Hey, isn't this stuff neat? You should totally play around with it and discover more awesome things to do with it'. Well, mostly Corellon for that, but.
Although I maintain that Corellon makes a better Bard deity than Selune, what with his magic and music portfolios, but 4E FR seems to have entirely forgotten the music part, going so far as to have that Domains of FR/Eberron article state that he's mostly into the visual arts. Zwuh? Of course this is the same article that states that Hanali is Selune in cheerful defiance of their own Hanali = Sune retcon. This is why I ignore nearly everything after 2E. For core as well, 3.x has some really, really bad coverage of Corellon too.
(Tangental rambling spoilered below for those who don't care)
Nah, I'm just joshin'.
Muhaha! Do not underestimate my Google-fu! I found it.It appears Ed went even further than I remembered. He didn't call her "mentally challenged" as I did - he called her "mindless" and "drooling." Here is the quote in full:
In the case of Mystryl, she sacrificed herself, not foreseeing that she’d be reborn. She had no Chosen or preselected mortal vessel, and did not know or intend that she’d “live on.” She simply did what she believed she had to do, to end a threat to the world she loved.However, the circumstances of her passing prevented other deities from snaring her divine power, and largely prevented its dispersal, and it “fell like a dying star” to earth (or so the priests of Mystra say) to at random strike and “go into” a mindless, drooling mortal woman and infuse her with Mystryl’s divinity, so that she became Mystra. (Of course, clergy of Mystra speak of the woman being present and selected as “divine fate” and not random at all, but this is one of the Holy Mysteries of the Lady of Mysteries that only high-ranking clergy are allowed to discuss in detail; lay worshippers and non-believers won’t get much more out of a priest of Mystra than this: “When Mystryl made the ultimate and most holy sacrifice that defended Toril itself, that which was best of her fell to earth, and struck a mortal woman, and went into her, and Mystryl was reborn as Mystra, as she was fated to do, that we may all have magic that serves us and not the howling chaos of wild magic spellstorms.”
We don’t know anything about the mortal woman who became Mystra other than these things: she was young, she was “mindless” (for reasons unknown; it may have been a birth defect or a later affliction), she was a poor rural unknown somewhere in the northern, western Heartlands being cared for by kin, and she was changed in looks and stature by Mystra’s “going in” to her. I’d say more, but NDAs forbid.Here is the link that I promised.
Also, while on my search I stumbled upon something else relevant to the topic being discussed.
Hello again, fellow scribes. Ed herewith makes reply to MaskedOne’s recent “semi-related questions,” to whit: “What would probably have occurred if the Karsus Avatar spell had been permitted to reach completion rather than Mystril suiciding to counter-act it? What did Mystril believe would occur if the spell was permitted to go on?”Dagnirion posted a suggestion, but Ed’s reply differs:
Ascension to godhood under those circumstances would have stolen power from all of the gods (to achieve the ascension and make Karsus a god, and to give him divine power), in a surge that Mystril was very much afraid (and probably rightly) that Karsus would have been unable to handle, mentally and physically, so he’d have promptly been ruined and the magic would have “surged” back and forth around Toril, doing great damage and spawning many wild magic “storms.”
She was also afraid that if Karsus succeeded in any way (survived, no matter how damaged), all of the other Netherese archwizards would have tried it too - - and collectively torn the fabric of the Prime Material asunder, destroying Realmspace and everything in it, or at least twisting it beyond all recognition and smashing all life cycles and ecosystems, dooming uncounted millions of living things to slow extinction. And all so one demonstrably proud, foolish, and cruel madman could have the shining toy he wanted, but couldn’t understand.Here is the link to that.
That quite contradicts what the plot of the Netheril Trilogy. In the second book, Mystra appeared to be a chosen of Mystryl and gave Candlemas a kiss while she was trying to find out about what Karsus was up to.
Magic is so compelling because it gives you power without a need of bending to gods like clerics do. Good diety of magic spoils it all. It needs to be raw, not managed by some greater entity.
Ed, please, use your creativity other way. She's dead, we're sorry for that, it must be hard for you. But this is your fault. You made her so hated. Don't be next Salvatore, know when to stop.
Mystra was a tease....
midnight didn't know what she was doing
No, please, no Mystra. No more diety of magic, unless it will by unaligned one and amoral like a fey diety of spellcasters (not magic herself). There was a reason why designers killed her. And now what? She's back? You gotta be kidding me! I would guess that someone wants to do some money on her return instead of beeing consistent.
Magic is so compelling because it gives you power without a need of bending to gods like clerics do. Good diety of magic spoils it all. It needs to be raw, not managed by some greater entity.
Ed, please, use your creativity other way. She's dead, we're sorry for that, it must be hard for you. But this is your fault. You made her so hated. Don't be next Salvatore, know when to stop.
Totally agree, let it go.
I couldn't stand her as it was, now they want to bring her back?
Rest assured, she will stay dead in my campaign.
what makes people think it will be Midnight Mystra who comes back???
The only way I'd feel comfortable about seeing a god(dess) of magic re-introduced to the Realms is if it is a radical departure from everything we've seen before... Also, that god(dess) can't have control over the Weave (if it still even exists in some form or other). When I say god(dess) of magic I'm talking in terms of having the portfolio of magic similar to Corellon.
So, the Realms wants to sell me on a new deity of magic as a Mystra replacement? Fine. I'm open minded.
How about we make this new deity a villainous deity? The Tyrant of Magic. Queen of the Arcane. She takes a radically different take on magic than previous incarnations. She believes that those with arcane talent should rule the world, and believes in some type of meritocratic hierarchy... basically spellduels determine where you stand in that hierarchy. Of course, being evil she also accepts more subtle methods of advancement and forms of ruthlessness. End result? You earn the right to sit at the top.
How about we make this new deity insane? The Lady of Wild Magic. The Mistress of the Blue Flame. She'd be utterly insane and in addition to being a deity of magic, she'd also be the goddess of the Spellplague. Her faithful would view Plaguelands as holy and Plaguetouched as blessed creatures. Spellscars are marks of their lady's favor. Of course, I use the term lady loosely. The forms she assumes are random, and more often than not look like some twisted abomination out of the Far Realms.
If WotC / the Authors want to go a route similar to the above, I could get behind that idea. Just don't try and rehash the same old crap. Look forward, not backward. Make it interesting and unique. Make me WANT to use this deity in my campaigns. Make other people who don't even game in the Realms WANT to incorporate this deity into THEIR games.
Lots of deities always worked as a replacement deity instead of Mystra. Selune for those who sought to use magic for truly good ends. Shar for those who wanted secret and hidden knowledge regarding the arcane. Bane for those who wanted to use magic to rule over others. Waukeen for those who primarily focused on arcane crafting. Talos for those who focused on destructive magic. Velsharoon for those who focused on Necromancy. Azuth for those who wanted to be very traditional. Savras for those who focused on divination.
Those deities only scratched the surface and are obvious. That list still leaves out deities like: Mask, Gargauth, Kossuth, Shaundakul, Helm, Torm, Hoar, Loviatar, Tiamat.... the list goes on and on.
Hell you could even use Corellon if you were desperate. 
However, we all know that it's only a matter of time until some incarnation of a Goddess of Magic makes a return. All I'm saying is that, personally, if they're going to do it – then it should be a break with the past. Strive to be awesome. Don't repeat what has already come before.
Frankly, I came up with the idea of a goddess of magic and the Spellplague on the fly in my previous post. Now I'm somewhat partial to the idea. Having a whacked out goddess of magic would be somewhat awesome, essentially Chaotic Neutral with a focus on the Chaotic. Having worshipers of such a deity see Plaguelands as holy, Spellscars as a sign of their ladies favor, and plaguetouched creatures as sacred would be interesting. Such a group could pose interesting problems for players, especially since they're not outright evil - just a little nuts.
At the rest... I'm not sure I'd ever be desperate enough to turn to Corellon Whatshisface for much of anything other than menial flitteriness, about the only thing any elf is good for. My own view, astonishingly enough, coincides with Meldread's concept. Any deity can serve as a deity of magic from some perspective, maybe not in a portfolio sense, but certainly from a worshipper sense. The metaphysical constructs of scholars are ultimately artificial, a conceptual notion to make us feel better, but really, the only 'truths' of magic that matters are the ones that the mages comes to themselves, as individuals. Oops, sorry, the Hollow One in me is showing again...
what makes people think it will be Midnight Mystra who comes back???The only way I'd feel comfortable about seeing a god(dess) of magic re-introduced to the Realms is if it is a radical departure from everything we've seen before... Also, that god(dess) can't have control over the Weave (if it still even exists in some form or other). When I say god(dess) of magic I'm talking in terms of having the portfolio of magic similar to Corellon.
So, the Realms wants to sell me on a new deity of magic as a Mystra replacement? Fine. I'm open minded.
How about we make this new deity a villainous deity? The Tyrant of Magic. Queen of the Arcane. She takes a radically different take on magic than previous incarnations. She believes that those with arcane talent should rule the world, and believes in some type of meritocratic hierarchy... basically spellduels determine where you stand in that hierarchy. Of course, being evil she also accepts more subtle methods of advancement and forms of ruthlessness. End result? You earn the right to sit at the top.
How about we make this new deity insane? The Lady of Wild Magic. The Mistress of the Blue Flame. She'd be utterly insane and in addition to being a deity of magic, she'd also be the goddess of the Spellplague. Her faithful would view Plaguelands as holy and Plaguetouched as blessed creatures. Spellscars are marks of their lady's favor. Of course, I use the term lady loosely. The forms she assumes are random, and more often than not look like some twisted abomination out of the Far Realms.
If WotC / the Authors want to go a route similar to the above, I could get behind that idea. Just don't try and rehash the same old crap. Look forward, not backward. Make it interesting and unique. Make me WANT to use this deity in my campaigns. Make other people who don't even game in the Realms WANT to incorporate this deity into THEIR games.
Those are some rather interesting ideas; I think I might use tweak versions of both. Say, Mystra rising gets split into two deities, one on the chaotic and one on the lawful side of unaligned, both leaning closer to evil than good.
what makes people think it will be Midnight Mystra who comes back???The only way I'd feel comfortable about seeing a god(dess) of magic re-introduced to the Realms is if it is a radical departure from everything we've seen before... Also, that god(dess) can't have control over the Weave (if it still even exists in some form or other). When I say god(dess) of magic I'm talking in terms of having the portfolio of magic similar to Corellon.
So, the Realms wants to sell me on a new deity of magic as a Mystra replacement? Fine. I'm open minded.
How about we make this new deity a villainous deity? The Tyrant of Magic. Queen of the Arcane. She takes a radically different take on magic than previous incarnations. She believes that those with arcane talent should rule the world, and believes in some type of meritocratic hierarchy... basically spellduels determine where you stand in that hierarchy. Of course, being evil she also accepts more subtle methods of advancement and forms of ruthlessness. End result? You earn the right to sit at the top.
How about we make this new deity insane? The Lady of Wild Magic. The Mistress of the Blue Flame. She'd be utterly insane and in addition to being a deity of magic, she'd also be the goddess of the Spellplague. Her faithful would view Plaguelands as holy and Plaguetouched as blessed creatures. Spellscars are marks of their lady's favor. Of course, I use the term lady loosely. The forms she assumes are random, and more often than not look like some twisted abomination out of the Far Realms.
If WotC / the Authors want to go a route similar to the above, I could get behind that idea. Just don't try and rehash the same old crap. Look forward, not backward. Make it interesting and unique. Make me WANT to use this deity in my campaigns. Make other people who don't even game in the Realms WANT to incorporate this deity into THEIR games.
I think it's a travesty that the Realms doesn't currently have a god/goddess of magic. I mean, it is a super heavy magic setting so I think it makes sense that there is a diety that has manifested due heavy magic use. The same argument could be made as to why there is a diety for farming.
Oh, Mystra will be back. Have no doubt. But because this is the Cordell Realms, she will be horribly damaged in some serious way. Probably by having her come back in some way that has her torn apart by primordials or far realms creatures, or perhaps disfigured in her femininity.
LOL. Well the bright spot is at least she won't be banging Elminster anymore. "No thanks... sorry, but tentacles tend to turn me off."
I think it's a travesty that the Realms doesn't currently have a god/goddess of magic. I mean, it is a super heavy magic setting so I think it makes sense that there is a diety that has manifested due heavy magic use. The same argument could be made as to why there is a diety for farming.
Your same argument can be made for virtually any other deity. Why don't we have a deity of rain? It rains all the time in the Realms. You could argue that Talos covers that, but Talos was revealed to be Gruumsh in the 4E Realms. While this is something I choose to ignore, it doesn't make a difference anyway. Talos was a deity of storms, not the rain, just as Umberlee was the goddess of the sea, not sailors and that left room open for Valkur.
Regardless, my argument isn't that there shouldn't be a goddess of magic in the Realms. My strongest past objection was never based over Mystra being the goddess of magic, but rather the Weave... this created a host of problems. The first was making the Weave and Mystra one-and-the-same. Thus, if Mystra died (as she is so clearly prone to do) the Weave goes poof with her. The second was forcing a good alignment on Mystra, and then forcing her to accept those who practiced VERY evil magic... which, by making the Weave synonymous with her body, was the equivalent of telling her that she had to allow herself to be molested on a daily basis. The third was making the Weave the PRIMARY access to magic in the Realms (which was why Mystra was forced to allow evil spellcasters to use it).
Many of these problems abated when the Shadow Weave appeared - creating an alternative and competition. However, that was poorly thought out as clearly evidenced by the numerous retcons the Shadow Weave faced over the course of its existence.
Finally, there was the power creep that Mystra experienced over the years that her followers also got to share in... effectively making her the center focus of the Realms, becoming a spotlight hog, and equipping herself and her followers with plot armor a mile thick - which was finally penetrated with 4th Edition.
Virtually every complaint that I had was based around the fact that Mystra was given the portfolio of the Weave after the Time of Troubles. Since the Weave is presumably non-existent in 4th Edition (and even if it did exist it proves that it doesn't require Mystra); all of the above is less of an issue.
So the end result is that I'm not against a new goddess of magic - provided that she is merely the goddess of magic, the same way Lliira is the goddess of happiness, joy, and freedom. If Lliira were to die those things would not end or be adversely impacted, as a result if you love or like those things there isn't an obligation to pay homage to her.
My only desire is that, should a new goddess of magic return, that it be a new spin on a deity of magic. They're likely going to bring back Mystra and slap her with the magic and spells portfolios. Whether she'll immediately be elevated to a greater deity without the Weave portfolio is unknown, but she'd likely at least be a Lesser or Intermediate deity. The rumor on the street is that we're looking at the return of either Mystra 2.0 or 1.0 instead of 3.0 (Midnight). This means, in 4E jargon, that she's going to be an Unaligned deity. Which means, in the grand scheme of things, with her portfolios, she's basically going to be Azuth in a skirt.
I never found Azuth interesting - too generic - and that's likely the path they're going to take with the new Mystra. Generic wizard deity. I think that is going to be boring, and thus I'd like for them to put a spin on it. Even so, generic wizard deity is better than what she was previously.
Your same argument can be made for virtually any other deity. Why don't we have a deity of rain? It rains all the time in the Realms. You could argue that Talos covers that, but Talos was revealed to be Gruumsh in the 4E Realms. While this is something I choose to ignore, it doesn't make a difference anyway. Talos was a deity of storms, not the rain, just as Umberlee was the goddess of the sea, not sailors and that left room open for Valkur. ...
Silvanus is the god of rain. His rains are non-destructive, and nourishing (unlike Talos). It's one of the reasons Silvanus is closely linked to Chauntea.
Your same argument can be made for virtually any other deity. Why don't we have a deity of rain? It rains all the time in the Realms. You could argue that Talos covers that, but Talos was revealed to be Gruumsh in the 4E Realms. While this is something I choose to ignore, it doesn't make a difference anyway. Talos was a deity of storms, not the rain, just as Umberlee was the goddess of the sea, not sailors and that left room open for Valkur. ...Silvanus is the god of rain. His rains are non-destructive, and nourishing (unlike Talos). It's one of the reasons Silvanus is closely linked to Chauntea.
Silvanus does not have the portfolio of Rain. His portfolio's - unless they've changed in 4E - are Wild nature and druids. As close as you're going to come to a Rain deity is Talos.
Chauntea, as the goddess of agriculture, likely receives the bulk of prayers for those who desire rain. Those who pray for rain are almost certainly going to be farmers, as a general rule for anyone else - rain causes problems.
When it comes to rain, Talos isn't likely to receive prayers in a normal fashion. He's most likely to be prayed to make it STOP raining, as he's more likely to cause a flood than anything else. In some cases, he may be prayed to during extreme drought, but only out of desperation. Even then, drought is most likely to occur in summer - one of Chauntea's portfolios. Thus, she likely would receive some prayers as well.
However, my point wasn't to argue over who gets prayers for rain.
Caolin made the argument that the Realms NEEDS a god(dess) with the magic portfolio. His reasoning behind this was to say that magic is very prevalent in the Realms.
My counter-point was that the same argument could be made for virtually any portfolio. If you only look at the Realms through the perspective of D&D and the Novels, the Realms is obviously very saturated with magic. However, if you're looking at the Realms as the average rural peasant sees it - magic isn't really as prevalent as we seem to believe. It's a matter of perspective.
However, rain impacts everyone. It doesn't matter if you're a rural country bumpkin or Elminster - the rain (or lack thereof) has an impact on your life to one degree or another. Thus, if you can make the argument for a goddess of magic, simply because magic is prevalent throughout the setting, you could also make the same argument about a god of rain.
Silvanus does not have the portfolio of Rain. His portfolio's - unless they've changed in 4E - are Wild nature and druids. As close as you're going to come to a Rain deity is Talos.
Silvanus is modeled after the old indoeuropean god of nature/fertility. Silvanus not only has the portfolio of nature (and come on, rain is a big part of nature), he also has the domain of water. He's also a close ally of Chauntea, who is modeled after mythical fertility goddesses. Talos as the god of "rain" doesn't make sense. Silvanus definitely does, as he brings the wild rains to foster farmers' crops and wild plants alike. He sometimes also brings drought, if the balance is upset.
Talos is the god of destructive storms, specifically those with lightning, or any that cause serious damage. Talos just relishes in anything that will cause destruction, wind, hail, lightning, whatever. He's not modeled after Ingvi / Freyr or any of the other mythological gods who "ripened grain" as the fertility gods were known to do. Also, Silvanus is stated as hating Talos for his unchecked use of things in nature to simply destroy.
Chauntea, as the goddess of agriculture, likely receives the bulk of prayers for those who desire rain. Those who pray for rain are almost certainly going to be farmers, as a general rule for anyone else - rain causes problems.
Chauntea is all about planned agriculture, the civilized part, with tools and schedules and the like. Rain is wild and usually unpredictable. I could see Chauntea telling her faithful how to build irrigation ditches and the like for when the rains don't come. But neither her portfolio nor her domains include water or rain.
When it comes to rain, Talos isn't likely to receive prayers in a normal fashion. He's most likely to be prayed to make it STOP raining, as he's more likely to cause a flood than anything else.
I'd definitely agree with this part. In a massive deadly storm with unchecked flooding, I could easily see Realmsians begging Talos to just stop.
In some cases, he may be prayed to during extreme drought, but only out of desperation. Even then, drought is most likely to occur in summer - one of Chauntea's portfolios. Thus, she likely would receive some prayers as well.
It's actually Silvanus who brings drought (or rain), and it's noted in one of the campaign guides (specifically about drought). And it just makes sense to pray to the god of nature for rain, IMO. You look to the sky, the clouds, nature, etc when you want rain... not down at the parched earth (Chauntea).
Caolin made the argument that the Realms NEEDS a god(dess) with the magic portfolio. His reasoning behind this was to say that magic is very prevalent in the Realms.
My counter-point was that the same argument could be made for virtually any portfolio. If you only look at the Realms through the perspective of D&D and the Novels, the Realms is obviously very saturated with magic. However, if you're looking at the Realms as the average rural peasant sees it - magic isn't really as prevalent as we seem to believe. It's a matter of perspective.
Possibly. But consider that many ancient societies believed that magic was everywhere (even when in real life it's just a myth), and that belief was enough to have goddesses of magic in almost every pantheon. In the Realms, it really does exist and even peasants can see it now and then. They'd want all sorts of things to protect them from magic, considering that most don't understand it.
I'd be inclined to say that the peoples of Faerun need a god/dess of magic, even if the rules of the new setting say they don't. We have gods to protect us from the things we don't understand, the things we can't control. Gods give people a modicum of reassurance that their prayers to shield them from unknown dangers might be heard and answered.
It's just that when I imagine a rain deity, I imagine that deity being more associated with agriculture and farmers than with nature.. a deity in the vain of Chauntea. Those are the people who are most likely to pray for rain.
It's also true that Chauntea has no power to make it rain. But a farmer who needs or wants rain is going to pray to her regardless. He's likely to ask that she help sustain his crops until the rains come, and ask her to intercede on his behalf to beseech the other gods to allow the rains to come.
Though being a polytheistic culture they're all likely to be praying to several gods at once.
Finally, when it comes to a goddess of magic - though it isn't stated in cannon - I'd be shocked to learn that Selune and Shar aren't filling the duel role of goddesses of magic. Selune clearly and obviously being the deity you'd pray to protect you from evil magic, or when you desire good / beneficial magic to aid you and your family. Shar clearly and obviously being the deity you'd pray to for dark arcane secrets, as well as revealing lost and forgotten arcane lore. So in my mind there are already goddesses fulfilling that role even if they don't technically hold the portfolios.
Seeing as how a new Mystra is almost certainly going to be neutral, we're looking at a setup similar to how the Mulhorandi pantheon was organized. Isis (Selune was the goddess of good magic, Set (Shar) was the god of evil magic, and Thoth (Mystra 4.0) was the goddess of neutral magic.
Even if Shar and Selune don't hold the portfolios directly, it'd be strange for such a practice to NOT be happening (for precisely the reasons you mentioned), and further to not continue once Mystra 4.0 appeared.
You make decent arguments for Silvanus, but I think it only applies during severe drought. ...and only then because there needs to be balance. Praying to Silvanus for a few extra drops of rain is going to land on deaf ears. While its true that he has the rain domain, its portfolios that matter. I don't deny that Silvanus has some power over rain, but its important to remember that he is first and foremost the god of wild and untamed nature who believes in balance before all else. He's more associated with trees and wildlands than with any sort of weather... but again, if there is a very bad drought prayers to him would make definite sense.
Rain is wild, and a core feature of nature. You can't predict it, and yet without it you can't have any plant growth. Silvanus would be crippled without the ability to cause rain, because he couldn't make anything grow. It doesn't need to be a portfolio unto itself, because it is a core part of wild nature.
It's just that when I imagine a rain deity, I imagine that deity being more associated with agriculture and farmers than with nature.. a deity in the vain of Chauntea. Those are the people who are most likely to pray for rain.
Agriculture and farming are civilized activities, they rely on tools and specific techniques. Rain is wild and not dependent on the earth but upon the wildness of nature. Chauntea doesn't make it rain, as she doesn't even have the domain of water.
Remember the real-life european myths about rain: once one tilled the ground and planted seeds in the earth (which is typically viewed as a goddess), you then prayed to the god of nature / fertility for rain. You may have done a little ceremony to appease the god's capricious nature and invite him to "ripen the grain" (i.e. make the "womb of the earth" grow his seeds).
I could see Realmsians praying to Chauntea for healthy earth, to bless their farming tools, to learn better ways to till the earth, to learn about methods to fertilze with different substances, using schedules and the like to improve yield, protecting their crops against blights, and all things associated with harvest time. But rain? That's a classic nature god's job.
It's also true that Chauntea has no power to make it rain. But a farmer who needs or wants rain is going to pray to her regardless. He's likely to ask that she help sustain his crops until the rains come, and ask her to intercede on his behalf to beseech the other gods to allow the rains to come.Though being a polytheistic culture they're all likely to be praying to several gods at once.
Chauntea is an ally of Silvanus, but I'm not sure why it would be necessary to get her to beg Silvanus for rain when you can pray to him directly?
Finally, when it comes to a goddess of magic - though it isn't stated in cannon - I'd be shocked to learn that Selune and Shar aren't filling the duel role of goddesses of magic. Selune clearly and obviously being the deity you'd pray to protect you from evil magic, or when you desire good / beneficial magic to aid you and your family. Shar clearly and obviously being the deity you'd pray to for dark arcane secrets, as well as revealing lost and forgotten arcane lore. So in my mind there are already goddesses fulfilling that role even if they don't technically hold the portfolios.
Essentially you're admitting here that praying to some deity regarding magic is really important.
But when you've had a deity specifically associated with magic for millenia, tied almost back to the creation of the world, and as immensely powerful as Mystra had been, why pray to any other deity that is sure to be less effective in dealing with magic?
And if your argument above was that Silvanus didn't hold a portfolio specifically for rain, making him inappropriate as a deity responsible for rain (despite it being a core feature of nature), then why do these other deities you mention have any ability to affect magic? None of them have the portfolio of magic, obviously.
The thing is, the whole "portfolio system" was broken the moment it was implemented in the game. It sort of implies that a deity holding a portfolio has total control over that thing, but because that wasn't going to work they had to tack on domains. Even then, portfolios are not all universal essentials. It's a mish-mash that is almost always overridden by DMs when any problem with portfolio usage comes up, and it doesn't even explain deity powers very well because the designers also break the system when they feel like it.
Seeing as how a new Mystra is almost certainly going to be neutral, we're looking at a setup similar to how the Mulhorandi pantheon was organized. Isis (Selune was the goddess of good magic, Set (Shar) was the god of evil magic, and Thoth (Mystra 4.0) was the goddess of neutral magic.
One can only hope that Mystra will be neutral in her new incarnation.
I don't see any problem with multiple deities being related to magic. That would also be acceptable. But again, it seems that whether you have one or many deities of magic, it's just really important to have at least one deity of magic in a pantheon.
Even if Shar and Selune don't hold the portfolios directly, it'd be strange for such a practice to NOT be happening (for precisely the reasons you mentioned), and further to not continue once Mystra 4.0 appeared.
Certainly, I don't doubt at all that Realmsians have been praying to some (or different) deities regarding magic, ever since Mystra went "off-line" so to speak. My contention is that they'd be praying to someone. But why rely on a deity less associated with magic that Mystra when people know that Mystra is hands-down THE deity of magic - and has been for millenia?
Heck, people not giving up on Mystra may be the main reason why she's returning, who knows?
First there is the group that desires balance. If an area is experiencing a bad drought, particularly due to unnatural means, then this group is going to pray to Silvanus... but they aren't REALLY asking him for rain - they're asking him to restore the balance of nature.
Second there is the group that is self-serving. They care less about balance and more about making the land useful to farming and the other needs of civilization. In many cases, this group could actually go in a direction in which Silvanus would disapprove. This group includes farmers and those who desire rain in areas which are livable but generally experience small amounts of rainfall. Assuming that these areas are naturally this way - Silvanus isn't going to answer their prayers for rain. His goal isn't to promote the desires of civilization, but rather to promote the balance of nature.
In other words, there are limits to what Silvanus can achieve when it comes to rain. He can restore balance, but he isn't going to make it rain somewhere that it shouldn't. He's only going to provide enough rainfall to achieve the balance and not a drop more. He is the reverse of Talos. Talos can also bring rain - through storms - but the method in which he brings the rain is through flooding and such.
This is where a deity specifically dedicated to rain comes into play - he's somewhere between these two extremes. His goals wouldn't necessarily be to cause floods (that's Talos), but he'd desire the world to be green and lush. He also is less likely to care about the balance, and thus would be happy to make it rain more than usual to ensure that your crops are well-watered. Such a deity would certainly be more tied with civilization (like Chauntea) than with nature (like Silvanus).
2. The argument over who gets prayers for rain is a bit off topic. My point wasn't so-and-so gets prayers for rain, but rather you can make an argument that virtually any portfolio – especially one that impacts a large number of people – must be held. I'm against this view (mostly because it is impractical and unwieldy), but also in large part because I agree with you.
I believe that a large number of deities receive prayers that are associated with their personalities and portfolios. So, yes - some people pray to Silvanus for rain. However, he isn't going to make it rain if it upsets the balance. Likewise, some people pray to Selune as a deity associated with magic. However, she isn't going to aid you in your quest to become a Lich who animates small children and puppies as undead. Likewise, some people might pray to Bane as a deity associated with magic. However, he is most inclined to grant aid if you're using your magic to oppress and control others.
The same could be said about the portfolio of fertility. It is an insanely important portfolio, but no deity (outside of Shiallia who holds woodland fertility – and really isn't known outside the North) has the portfolio. Does this mean the Realms lacks a deity of fertility? I don't believe that is the case. I see people praying to Chauntea when it comes to the fertility of the land, and women praying to Selune when they have a desire to become pregnant (because the cycles of the moon are typically associated with the menstrual cycle). If one is worried about the fertility of the forests because an animal is being over hunted, they'd likely pray to Mielikki (as goddess of forest creatures), Silvanus (as god of wild nature - who is very closely associated with balance), Shiallia (as goddess of woodland fertility - particularly if it involves either the High Forest or Neverwinter Wood) - others would also be acceptable. Even Malar could be prayed to in certain circumstances because he specifically has prohibitions against killing the young and pregnant in an effort to keep pray plentiful. Malar also has prohibitions on killing beasts solely because they are dangerous - so Malar would be the most ideal deity to pray to if farmers are killing off wolves in large numbers to protect their flocks of sheep, as an example.
3. My first two points culminate on this final point which directly ties into the return of Mystra. Just as the Realms doesn't need a deity who specifically holds the rain or fertility portfolio, the Realms doesn't need a deity who specifically holds the magic portfolio. The Realms isn't harmed if a deity of magic appears, there will still be many wizards who decide to take other deities as their patron. For example, the wizard who seeks to use magic to oppress and control others is still going to feel inclined to take Bane as their patron, though obviously they'd deliver a great deal of lip service to Mystra 4.0.
In previous editions my opinion would have been different because I believed that the Weave was necessary for magic to function - at least at the level we were used too. Some types of magic would have persisted without the Weave, but they wouldn't have been anywhere near as powerful.
However, in 4E the Weave is gone or at least exists independent of Mystra. Therefore, at best she'd serve as just another generic deity of magic – the Realms version of Boccob – at worst she'd be even more generic and bland. Her only purpose would be to act as the default option for a wizard who didn't know who else to worship (likely because said wizard is equally generic).
Look at my example when it comes to Malar and the fertility of wild animals. Imagine if there were suddenly a deity of fertility – all fertility, anywhere and everywhere – and suddenly the problem becomes more clear. By becoming too generic it takes away something that was interesting.
This was why I suggested that, if they're going to bring back Mystra, they should make her interesting. She shouldn't be seen merely as a simple generic goddess of magic ("the default" wizard goddess), but rather have other attributes that make her more and less appealing to certain groups (i.e. goddess of the Spellplague).
There is also no reason that Mystra herself has to return and that another deity couldn't be given the portfolio of magic. There are any number of deities suitable: Oghma if you want to go the generic route, Bane if you want to go a darker route, Shar if you want to go the 'hidden arcane lore and dark secrets' route, Selune if you want to go the 'magic should be used for the benefit of all' route, and of course other dead deities (such as Azuth, Velsharoon, or Savras) could return instead of Mystra or an entirely new deity could arrive on the scene.
My line of thinking is this: Mystra or some other magic deity is going to make an appearance. Fighting and struggling against this fact is pointless. Thus, my hope is that the powers that be make the new deity an interesting rather than a generic goddess of magic.
That said, Silvanus isn't against the spread of civilization per se, just against those who would tear down the forests or seriously disrupt nature in order to make it happen. Most often, though, farmers would want to work with the Lord of Nature. The reclamation of the desert of Anauroch comes to mind, and could be viewed in two ways. I think a convincing argument could be made that Silvanus either detests what the Netherese are doing (because of the secondary ecological damage to the ecosystem), or that Silvanus approves (because it returns the land to life and growth as it was many ages ago). Either way, Silvanus can see the bigger picture and he will do what is best for the balance.
Getting back to the "need" of a deity of magic, I'm just not convinced by the fact that "multiple deities can be prayed to for magical concerns" is a strong argument against Mystra. Sure, one can pray to multiple deities, but the same can be said for anything in the Realms. Do we absolutely need a particular deity, when there are so many other deities around?
That's unfortunately the same argument that the designers used to get rid of, destroy, or retcon many of the 3E deities away. One might similarly ask, does the Realms need any deites at all except for one? But just because a deity's absence can be served by other deities if that particular deity is killed off, that's not a good argument to get rid of any deity. The better question to ask is this: is the Realms better off without a particular deity?
Is the Realms better without Mystra? Without Tyr and Helm? How about Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, and Vhaeraun? Or is it diminished and more hollow for lack of their presence in the game? Is a soup better off without salt altogether, just because you have garlic?
I agree that there were too many Mary Sue characters, and the gods were some of them. But rather than getting rid of them completely they should have been de-MarySued and not eliminated. The Mary Sues and the escalating RSEs were the real problem, not the diversity of gods and richness of Realms history. There is a need for those missing gods, because they added their own unique flavor to the Realms, and their absence is sorely felt. One only need look at the massive drop in board participation to see that the Realms has lost more than it gained by their removal and retconning.
Finally, I absolutely agree that if Mystra is going to come back, it should be interesting and make sense. It should be done in a way that brings back some of the flavor that's lacking, and not just done for generic reasons. But honestly, I'm not sure this group of designers can be that creative. Their lack of vision and foresight ("let's just gut everything and make it like a 'Yes' album!", or "we had the Spellplague, how about an Abyssal Plague, yay!") makes me worry that it will either be poorly done or very generic indeed.
Getting back to the "need" of a deity of magic, I'm just not convinced by the fact that "multiple deities can be prayed to for magical concerns" is a strong argument against Mystra. Sure, one can pray to multiple deities, but the same can be said for anything in the Realms. Do we absolutely need a particular deity, when there are so many other deities around?
That's unfortunately the same argument that the designers used to get rid of, destroy, or retcon many of the 3E deities away. One might similarly ask, does the Realms need any deites at all except for one? But just because a deity's absence can be served by other deities if that particular deity is killed off, that's not a good argument to get rid of any deity. The better question to ask is this: is the Realms better off without a particular deity?
Is the Realms better without Mystra? Without Tyr and Helm? How about Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, and Vhaeraun? Or is it diminished and more hollow for lack of their presence in the game? Is a soup better off without salt altogether, just because you have garlic?
Given the history of magic in the Realms, I am troubled by the current ambivalence about whether the "Weave" exists and whether whatever exists is similar at all to the old "Weave." I am equally troubled by the lack of Mystryl/Mystra, for a couple reasons:
1) In the past, whenever she died, she almost immediate ressurected/reincarnated, suggesting a high degree of importance
2) When Karsus tried to regulate and control the Weave, it broke magic, b/c magic needed Mystryl's guidance. Magic wasn't able to come back until Mystra brought it back.
3) Mystra seems to be of particular importance to Ao, and it is unclear to me why he would keep her around in the pantheon for so long as a Greater Deity if she wasn't actually really important... not to mention why Ao thought the death of Mystra was such an issue that He for the one and only time ever interacted with mortals to elevate Midnight to divinity. Why would he do such a thing if it wasn't important?
So, I don't really know how to account for the current state of affairs-- indeed, my current campaign has focused around trying to come up with an explanation for it. So, in that sense, it has been good for us, as this problem became a creative driving force in our campaign... but I would be very pleased to see Mystra return (although it will almost certainly contradict the plot of this game... perhaps it is an alternate Toril timeline...)
When you ask whether the Realms are better off without Mystra, are you asking whether Faerun would be a better place if Mystra never returned, or are you asking whether the campaign setting would be better off in terms of being interesting and fun to play in if Mystra never returned? I suspect the latter, but the former is an interesting idea, a question I cannot immediately answer (in part b/c I have no idea how magic works now that there is no god of magic)...
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How about Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, and Vhaeraun?
It is kind of funny that you ask this-- in the paragon tier of our campaign we dealt with these events as well, and the party explored Vhaeraun's floating corpse in the Astral Sea. I think it is stupid that they killed off all these gods, and I don't really understand the logic (they clearly wanted to simplify the realms, but the distinctive thing about the realms is that it is the most detailed campaign setting ever written... it would be like bringing the Ravenloft setting back but eliminating the scary stuff, or bringing Birthright back but eliminating the whole regency issue...).
I never really understood the argument that the abundance of canon material somehow constrained DMs-- though I absolutely love FR lore, it is a resource for building my campaigns, not the campaign itself. I've contradicted (intentionally usually) canon in my games plenty of times. No one ever complains (though most of my players really don't know enough of the lore to notice, and when they do, it's like "oh cool, in our campaign, that was *us* that did that"...). More information is always good. Killing off all the gods b/c it was too complicated was unnecessary.
Instead, they should have just only talked about the gods they wanted to talk about in the 4E FRCG. Newcomers to the realms wouldn't have to mess with the plethora of gods Julia Martin and Eric Boyd taught us about, but they also wouldn't be *dead*. Wizards could have made an executive decision to only feature the core gods in 4E novels and any of the dragon magazine lore, living FR materials, etc. What purpose did killing off all those gods serve?
It seemed like a replication of the same sort of mistake TSR made when 2E came out. In the 1E players handook, there was an assassin class, but in the 2E players handbook, there wasn't. Big deal, this certainly shouldn't have an implication for the story of FR, right? wrong-- they thought that the only way they could account for this was to have the god of murder die. I mean, seriously? Character class is a game mechanic, not some sort of ontological category intrinsically built into the game world...
Am I wrong? Did the housecleaning serve any other productive purpose? I might be oversimplifying the situation by saying that they only did it to simplify the realms... but that seemed at least one of the major reasons, and it is quite stupid.
Selune would work as well. She too has the Arcane domain. That and she is Mystras mom, or was she the dad?
My understanding is that in the beginning, there was a conflict between Selune and Shar, and as they were fighting, they launched some sort of energy made up of their divine essence at one another, and the result was magic, the Weave, Mystryl.
In that respect, Selune and Shar could be sheparding Toril's magic these days. Also, elven high magic is described as coming from some sort of communion with the elven pantheon, some sort of communal force flowing from their domain into elvenkind. I imagine that this is especially the case in the Feywild, and the magic of the shadowfell is probably some kind of successor to Shar's shadow weave.
Whether they bring back Mystra or no, it would be interesting if they really thought this situation out to its logical conclusions and explore all the possible implications... Magic used to be largely united into one field, but is now broken apart into several disparate fields, each of a different quality and organized differently. What does that mean for magic? If you cast a 30 level ritual to create a mythallar or something of the like, does it make a difference which field of magic you are working with? The netherese mythallars were destructive to the weave, so much so that often elves would get sick if they got too close. In contrast, the elven Mythals were soothing... that suggests that even then, the Weave wasn't entirely smooth and homogenous. This state of affairs should be massively amplified now... thinking through the various consequences would be extremely interesting (and failure to do so really begs all kinds of continuity questions).
The second was forcing a good alignment on Mystra, and then forcing her to accept those who practiced VERY evil magic... which, by making the Weave synonymous with her body, was the equivalent of telling her that she had to allow herself to be molested on a daily basis. The third was making the Weave the PRIMARY access to magic in the Realms (which was why Mystra was forced to allow evil spellcasters to use it).Many of these problems abated when the Shadow Weave appeared - creating an alternative and competition. However, that was poorly thought out as clearly evidenced by the numerous retcons the Shadow Weave faced over the course of its existence.
I'm not so certain these were problems -- instead, I think they make up a very interesting story... for tens of thousands of years, there was a neutral god of magic who was for the most part non-interventionist. That lasted until the Netherese became too decedant for their own good. The new god of magic was, again, neutral, but perhaps a bit more interventionist (sort of like passing some financial reform after the financial bubble). Still, she lasted more than a thousand years without too much problems. When she died, her replacement disturbed the balance by linking goodness to magic. That caused a whole host of problems, ultimately culminating in the biggest magical disaster Toril had ever seen...
In a sense, it could be seen as a morality play about the importance of disinterest and neutrality when it comes to regulating such a universal resource. I suspect that any religions that adhere to the old 'true neutral' alignment probably tell this narrative in their sermons (and if they aren't, they should be).
So, in short, I don't think this posed a problem for the campaign setting, though it did pose quite a problem for Faerun... but it was the kind of problem that made for an interesting narrative about perhaps the most important aspect of the Realms... As long as it makes for a compelling story, it isn't a bad thing at all, at least for us (I can't speak for Faerun's wizards, however).
and by the art ,PRAISE MYSTRA !
yes she is... shes an emo goth bimbo queen wannabe
Where's me "like" button?!?
Why do I keep coming back to these boards....
I ask myself this very question
Well, it supplies *my* daily dose of the crazy. :D I'd really be interested in seeing an actual, unbiased poll as to whether people want Mystra to come back or not. People seem pretty polarized about it. Cheers
There is no real way to answer this you see.
To most Mystra/Midnight is all they know, and we all h8 her guts.
Mystra from the elminster trilogy on the otherhand was well written.
Nuetral as a goddess of magic should be and who is the one Mystra I want back
Eh. Midnight as Mystra was a mortal in a god's body, but then, that's kind of something I miss. I'm often confused by this new trend toward making all god's remote and completely alien in mindset.
Gods who act like people worked rather well for...er, well...every pre-christian western civilization in history, some of the eastern ones and (IIRC) most African and pre-colonial American civilizations.
But oh no, not in DnD.
Gods acting on emotional responses? Preposterous!
Gods making bad decisions? Balls to that!
Gods being more than metaphysical personifications of ideals and values, with little to no vital ties to those who serve them or the events of the mortal world? Surely, you jest.
Odin isn't an interesting mythological figure because he has cool powers. He's interesting because he's the kind of being who would rip out his own eye for greater knowledge. Who would hang by the neck, stabbed in the side for nine days and nights in order to gain the runes. He's interesting because not just because he's a god of Death, War, Battle-Frenzy, Magic and Poetic Inspiration, but because he has a personality, and does things that are worthy of those titles, and their combination.
An Odin done in the new style wouldn't be worth reading about.
EDIT: Another thing to remember is that in many mythologies magic is something that is handled by multiple gods and/or goddesses. To continue my trend here, in norse mythology Odin is a god of magic, as are Frigg, Loki and I think one or two others. In Celtic mythology, half of the buggers use magic on a regular basis, though we can't be sure who people prayed to when dealing with things they thought of as magical.
The idea of a single deity of magic in a pantheon is hardly a given.
yes she is... shes an emo goth bimbo queen wannabe
No, she isn't. Goths aren't psychotic nihlists, no matter what the media tells you. Pyschotic nihlists are precisely that, but of crazy nutjobs... they look like everybody else. Maybe even you...
yes she is... shes an emo goth bimbo queen wannabe
No, she isn't. Goths aren't psychotic nihlists, no matter what the media tells you. Pyschotic nihlists are precisely that, but of crazy nutjobs... they look like everybody else. Maybe even you...
Isn't Shar pretty much the pyschotic nihilist?
she also sniffs black lotus
Yeah, not much to argue over that point... poster child for the term really.
And yes, she is a lotus sniffer, the weirdo freak that she is. Never trust a junkie.
Eh. Midnight as Mystra was a mortal in a god's body, but then, that's kind of something I miss. I'm often confused by this new trend toward making all god's remote and completely alien in mindset.
Gods who act like people worked rather well for...er, well...every pre-christian western civilization in history, some of the eastern ones and (IIRC) most African and pre-colonial American civilizations.
But oh no, not in DnD.
Gods acting on emotional responses? Preposterous!
Gods making bad decisions? Balls to that!
Gods being more than metaphysical personifications of ideals and values, with little to no vital ties to those who serve them or the events of the mortal world? Surely, you jest.
Odin isn't an interesting mythological figure because he has cool powers. He's interesting because he's the kind of being who would rip out his own eye for greater knowledge. Who would hang by the neck, stabbed in the side for nine days and nights in order to gain the runes. He's interesting because not just because he's a god of Death, War, Battle-Frenzy, Magic and Poetic Inspiration, but because he has a personality, and does things that are worthy of those titles, and their combination.
An Odin done in the new style wouldn't be worth reading about.
EDIT: Another thing to remember is that in many mythologies magic is something that is handled by multiple gods and/or goddesses. To continue my trend here, in norse mythology Odin is a god of magic, as are Frigg, Loki and I think one or two others. In Celtic mythology, half of the buggers use magic on a regular basis, though we can't be sure who people prayed to when dealing with things they thought of as magical.
The idea of a single deity of magic in a pantheon is hardly a given.
Okay... in response... I'm not speaking for the "remote gods" side here so much as I'm going to talk about the problems many people had with the poor way the gods have been portrayed. You use Odin and the Norse myths for your example, so I'll try to keep that in consideration.
It isn't that the gods are anthropomorphic. It isn't that they can literally walk the Realms and serve you mead in a tavern or bonk you on the head. DMs and players of all kinds like having the option of a god that really exists and can send you not only dreams and mysterious portents, but also (on rare occasions) show up and give you a clue-by-four.
The problem also wasn't that a god couldn't make mistakes or have emotional responses. That's not what people have an issue with, generally speaking.
With the Norse gods, they were active, they were passionate, they were known for their colorful history. The stories about the gods gave the Norse people a sense of their world, the dangers, and especially the understanding that even the gods could not escape fate. Even the gods are fallible and not eternal. Still, they operated in mythic time. Stories of the Norse gods were not linked to a given time in history, which added to their sense of power and mystery. Stories of the Realms gods, for the most part, operate in "real" Realms time, which tends to ground them.
The main difference is that the real Norse didn't actually have physical interactions with their gods, just as modern Christians and modern Norse pagans don't actually have physical interactions with deities. There is a sense of separateness, otherworldliness, and wonder, despite the anthropomorphism in both religious traditions.
The problem for the Realms is more that the gods have been extremely overused in novels, and yet also no attempt whatsoever has been made at keeping a sense of separateness, otherworldliness and wonder. The outer planes are just, you know... places you can probably go visit with a portal or the right spell. They're not mysterious, we know all about them from novels and Planescape. Nor are the gods mysterious on any level, given how they are used in novels. In fact, the Realms gods have been pretty one-dimensional in the novels and often act like they have blinders on most of the time.
When the gods lack wonder and mystery, do dumb things and act like flawed mortals... and the outer planes aren't all that different than a new continent, then the gods really are no different than an Elminster NPC or a Mirt the Moneylender NPC. Worse, the way they've been used in novels to advance certain plots, they are a lot more like poorly executed DMPCs where the DM steals the limelight from mortals (i.e. his or her players).
Look at just one of the things that happens in the Time of Troubles: Mystra (reduced to being a mortal avatar) decides to confront Helm (still a full god) in order to bring Ao a tidbit of news. For one thing, Mystra somehow still believes that she can bypass Helm. And Helm also must be aware of their difference in power. They aren't enemies, but Helm one-shot kills Mystra for no reason. For another, why didn't Mystra just simply give Helm the news and have him take it to Ao? Isn't Helm the Watcher supposedly noble and honorable, not to mention trustworthy? These are supposed to be beings with incredible intelligence, wisdom, and eons of experience, but they're acting like 1st level NPCs run by a 9-year-old.
That's why people are wanting more distant deities. Not because there are stories about them having emotional reactions or making mistakes. Yet bear in mind, also, the Norse gods usually interacted more with the Jotnar and other beings which were pretty close to their power level. Sure, Odin and the others showed up on rare occasions to interact with a mortal in some way, but in those cases they always overshadowed the mortals in question; as they should: they're gods!
Frankly, game play shouldn't be about what deities do but rather what your players mortal PCs do. Players should be the focus of the story, not some DMPC or overpowered NPC.
Eh. Midnight as Mystra was a mortal in a god's body, but then, that's kind of something I miss. I'm often confused by this new trend toward making all god's remote and completely alien in mindset.
Gods who act like people worked rather well for...er, well...every pre-christian western civilization in history, some of the eastern ones and (IIRC) most African and pre-colonial American civilizations.
But oh no, not in DnD.
Gods acting on emotional responses? Preposterous!
Gods making bad decisions? Balls to that!
Gods being more than metaphysical personifications of ideals and values, with little to no vital ties to those who serve them or the events of the mortal world? Surely, you jest.
Odin isn't an interesting mythological figure because he has cool powers. He's interesting because he's the kind of being who would rip out his own eye for greater knowledge. Who would hang by the neck, stabbed in the side for nine days and nights in order to gain the runes. He's interesting because not just because he's a god of Death, War, Battle-Frenzy, Magic and Poetic Inspiration, but because he has a personality, and does things that are worthy of those titles, and their combination.
An Odin done in the new style wouldn't be worth reading about.
EDIT: Another thing to remember is that in many mythologies magic is something that is handled by multiple gods and/or goddesses. To continue my trend here, in norse mythology Odin is a god of magic, as are Frigg, Loki and I think one or two others. In Celtic mythology, half of the buggers use magic on a regular basis, though we can't be sure who people prayed to when dealing with things they thought of as magical.
The idea of a single deity of magic in a pantheon is hardly a given.
Okay... in response... I'm not speaking for the "remote gods" side here so much as I'm going to talk about the problems many people had with the poor way the gods have been portrayed. You use Odin and the Norse myths for your example, so I'll try to keep that in consideration.
It isn't that the gods are anthropomorphic. It isn't that they can literally walk the Realms and serve you mead in a tavern or bonk you on the head. DMs and players of all kinds like having the option of a god that really exists and can send you not only dreams and mysterious portents, but also (on rare occasions) show up and give you a clue-by-four.
The problem also wasn't that a god couldn't make mistakes or have emotional responses. That's not what people have an issue with, generally speaking.
With the Norse gods, they were active, they were passionate, they were known for their colorful history. The stories about the gods gave the Norse people a sense of their world, the dangers, and especially the understanding that even the gods could not escape fate. Even the gods are fallible and not eternal. Still, they operated in mythic time. Stories of the Norse gods were not linked to a given time in history, which added to their sense of power and mystery. Stories of the Realms gods, for the most part, operate in "real" Realms time, which tends to ground them.
The main difference is that the real Norse didn't actually have physical interactions with their gods, just as modern Christians and modern Norse pagans don't actually have physical interactions with deities. There is a sense of separateness, otherworldliness, and wonder, despite the anthropomorphism in both religious traditions.
The problem for the Realms is more that the gods have been extremely overused in novels, and yet also no attempt whatsoever has been made at keeping a sense of separateness, otherworldliness and wonder. The outer planes are just, you know... places you can probably go visit with a portal or the right spell. They're not mysterious, we know all about them from novels and Planescape. Nor are the gods mysterious on any level, given how they are used in novels. In fact, the Realms gods have been pretty one-dimensional in the novels and often act like they have blinders on most of the time.
When the gods lack wonder and mystery, do dumb things and act like flawed mortals... and the outer planes aren't all that different than a new continent, then the gods really are no different than an Elminster NPC or a Mirt the Moneylender NPC. Worse, the way they've been used in novels to advance certain plots, they are a lot more like poorly executed DMPCs where the DM steals the limelight from mortals (i.e. his or her players).
Look at just one of the things that happens in the Time of Troubles: Mystra (reduced to being a mortal avatar) decides to confront Helm (still a full god) in order to bring Ao a tidbit of news. For one thing, Mystra somehow still believes that she can bypass Helm. And Helm also must be aware of their difference in power. They aren't enemies, but Helm one-shot kills Mystra for no reason. For another, why didn't Mystra just simply give Helm the news and have him take it to Ao? Isn't Helm the Watcher supposedly noble and honorable, not to mention trustworthy? These are supposed to be beings with incredible intelligence, wisdom, and eons of experience, but they're acting like 1st level NPCs run by a 9-year-old.
That's why people are wanting more distant deities. Not because there are stories about them having emotional reactions or making mistakes. Yet bear in mind, also, the Norse gods usually interacted more with the Jotnar and other beings which were pretty close to their power level. Sure, Odin and the others showed up on rare occasions to interact with a mortal in some way, but in those cases they always overshadowed the mortals in question; as they should: they're gods!
Frankly, game play shouldn't be about what deities do but rather what your players mortal PCs do. Players should be the focus of the story, not some DMPC or overpowered NPC.
I agree.
lol, now for the slightly less abrupt response: You make very good points about the difference between the norse gods and the FR gods, and about the stupidity of many FR gods in novels. I simply think that 4e (and this is one of my very few complaints about 4e) went a bit further than necessary toward making the gods distant. I've also read many times on these forums that people think that gods are only really acting like gods if they're as distant and mysterious as the gods in 4e.
A counter example to the Time of Troubes example is Mask, particularly in the Cale books. The scene where he appears as a hobo in an alley, complains to Cale that he never teleports into a nice uptown brothel or bath house, and proceeds to let Cale stab him in the stomach in order to help Cale get into the headspace that Mask needs him in.
I love Mask in those books. I like that he's a character, not just a plot hook. And that's what I want from my dnd gods, or at least some of them. I want characters, not plot hooks.
I agree.
lol, now for the slightly less abrupt response: You make very good points about the difference between the norse gods and the FR gods, and about the stupidity of many FR gods in novels. I simply think that 4e (and this is one of my very few complaints about 4e) went a bit further than necessary toward making the gods distant. I've also read many times on these forums that people think that gods are only really acting like gods if they're as distant and mysterious as the gods in 4e.
A counter example to the Time of Troubes example is Mask, particularly in the Cale books. The scene where he appears as a hobo in an alley, complains to Cale that he never teleports into a nice uptown brothel or bath house, and proceeds to let Cale stab him in the stomach in order to help Cale get into the headspace that Mask needs him in.
I love Mask in those books. I like that he's a character, not just a plot hook. And that's what I want from my dnd gods, or at least some of them. I want characters, not plot hooks.
I've completely rejected 4E Realms and refuse to purchase it, but to date I'm not aware of gods being "more distant" in 4E so much as they haven't yet been used as NPCs or as characters in novels. The Empyrean Odyssey seemed to take pains to avoid having a god show up, although there were many references to the gods.
I agree that Mask has been the best written, and this is because Paul Kemp never overuses Mask. That said, "overuse" is one of those things that is subjective to each reader. Some might say that Mystra was never overused either (though I'd disagree on that point). But yes, even in the Time of Troubles, Mask was probably one of the least abused by writers.
To be a "god" there needs to be a sense of separation and wonder. I'm one of those who prefers their D&D gods to be more distant, although not completely so. Irregualar visits by the gods, so long as they're not overdone, those are ok in my book. Still... if a god is serving you mead in a tavern and you can pinch her goods and carry her upstairs for an evening of slap and tickle (e.g. see Selune), then to me they're just acting like NPCs.
I've completely rejected 4E Realms and refuse to purchase it, but to date I'm not aware of gods being "more distant" in 4E so much as they haven't yet been used as NPCs or as characters in novels. The Empyrean Odyssey seemed to take pains to avoid having a god show up, although there were many references to the gods.
I agree that Mask has been the best written, and this is because Paul Kemp never overuses Mask. That said, "overuse" is one of those things that is subjective to each reader. Some might say that Mystra was never overused either (though I'd disagree on that point). But yes, even in the Time of Troubles, Mask was probably one of the least abused by writers.
To be a "god" there needs to be a sense of separation and wonder. I'm one of those who prefers their D&D gods to be more distant, although not completely so. Irregualar visits by the gods, so long as they're not overdone, those are ok in my book. Still... if a god is serving you mead in a tavern and you can pinch her goods and carry her upstairs for an evening of slap and tickle (e.g. see Selune), then to me they're just acting like NPCs.
They really are more distant. In one of the books that features some of the spellplague leadup, all kinds of exposition about what goes on with the gods is laid down, but not by the reader getting to actually "see" the events. Instead, some angels discuss it, and crap like that.
I don't want that. When Tyr kills Helm, I want to actually read Tyr killing Helm. I don't want to read Torm's angels talking about how crappy it was when Tyr herped all over Helm's derp and gave up his godhood.
They really are more distant. In one of the books that features some of the spellplague leadup, all kinds of exposition about what goes on with the gods is laid down, but not by the reader getting to actually "see" the events. Instead, some angels discuss it, and crap like that.
I don't want that. When Tyr kills Helm, I want to actually read Tyr killing Helm. I don't want to read Torm's angels talking about how crappy it was when Tyr herped all over Helm's derp and gave up his godhood.
Definitely, that was a horrible scene, and felt very much like "exposition for the readers" without any action or real emotion in it. I think it may have even been in one of the Empyrean Odyssey novels. It's too bad they couldn't have figured out a better way of showing what happened. Because even though they talked about it, it still felt totally off-page and almost as if the angels couldn't believe any of it either.
I haven't read most of the other post-Spellplague books, but I'll take your word for it that they're generally much the same. Before 4E, history was revealed primarily through action in novels. That may be why the Spellplague and the 1385+ history felt so very foreign and hollow to many people. When "history" is just laid out, without "living" it in a novel or a game, it's usually very dry and can feel implausible... like the Helm-Tyr-Torm problem.
As you've said, actually seeing history (through reading) is crucial for a "living" world setting. I think that's why I feel like the Realms died in a car crash, and was revived by EMTs... to awaken after brain surgery and a long coma. It's not all that recognizable, for many reasons.
4e Realms does seem to stay away from the gods as characters, trying to keep them aloof and far removed from the mortals or whatever. But then again they have all that soap opera stuff about Tyr, Helm and Torm, which made them seem very mortal, very stupid even. So again they cant seem to make their mind up which way to go.
Me personally, I think its ok to focus on the Gods, if thats what the novels about, Like the Avatar Trilogy( all five of them) , I thought those were all right, well written, and it worked to have the gods in there. Other novels, like the Moonshae trilogys, It just dont seem right, you know? I mean the story was supposed to be about the mortal characters right? Do elves count as mortal? Anyway, I dunno I just dont think the gods should of been in there as much as they were, that and Helm working with Bhaal!? For real? What the hells!? Any way I digress, my point is sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesnt.
Basically it all boils doen to what each individuals taste is, however you want to do it. Me personally I do my best to keep the gods out of the campaign. It loses all fun if the players know all they have to do is phone up Corellon, Cyric, Bathor, or whoever to take care of it. You know?
Just my 2 coppers, you know?
I love that the God that I hate the most is Lawful Good (Torm, may his divine entrails be slowly consumed and reconstituted daily for all eternity). I love that there's a cold war on, and it involves all my old favorites. I love that there are slave arenas in Calimshan (I made a Shadar-kai assassin who ended up there and got captured and put in the arena in Memnon).
Sometimes, I think that 4e Realms is just a better setting than previous editions Realms. I liked reading Realms books, but I didn't really want to play there. Now, I want to do both.
I do still love the Realms, though. In some ways, more than ever.
I love that the God that I hate the most is Lawful Good (Torm, may his divine entrails be slowly consumed and reconstituted daily for all eternity). I love that there's a cold war on, and it involves all my old favorites. I love that there are slave arenas in Calimshan (I made a Shadar-kai assassin who ended up there and got captured and put in the arena in Memnon).
Sometimes, I think that 4e Realms is just a better setting than previous editions Realms. I liked reading Realms books, but I didn't really want to play there. Now, I want to do both.
I never really connected with Torm, he's always just seemed deadly dull to me. At least how he's been presented in the game and novels so far isn't that interesting IMO. *shrug*
With the "cold war" I'm not sure which you're referring to? The Netherese vs. everyone else? Or something more to do with Cyric and the rest of the gods?
Calimshan's always had slaves, and arenas were popular as well.
I'm glad that you like the new Realms, but honestly for me they've been completely ruined. I've only bought two post-Spellplague novels, and no gaming materials at all. Where I used to buy almost everything for 20-odd years, I now buy nothing.
And really, the dead nature of the Realms forums indicates to me that a lot of people are similarly dissatisfied with the new Realms.
But it is what it is. This crop of designers made their gamble. The next group will make their own. Perhaps it will swing back, perhaps not.
I do still love the Realms, though. In some ways, more than ever.
I love that the God that I hate the most is Lawful Good (Torm, may his divine entrails be slowly consumed and reconstituted daily for all eternity). I love that there's a cold war on, and it involves all my old favorites. I love that there are slave arenas in Calimshan (I made a Shadar-kai assassin who ended up there and got captured and put in the arena in Memnon).
Sometimes, I think that 4e Realms is just a better setting than previous editions Realms. I liked reading Realms books, but I didn't really want to play there. Now, I want to do both.
I never really connected with Torm, he's always just seemed deadly dull to me. At least how he's been presented in the game and novels so far isn't that interesting IMO. *shrug*
With the "cold war" I'm not sure which you're referring to? The Netherese vs. everyone else? Or something more to do with Cyric and the rest of the gods?
Calimshan's always had slaves, and arenas were popular as well.
I'm glad that you like the new Realms, but honestly for me they've been completely ruined. I've only bought two post-Spellplague novels, and no gaming materials at all. Where I used to buy almost everything for 20-odd years, I now buy nothing.
And really, the dead nature of the Realms forums indicates to me that a lot of people are similarly dissatisfied with the new Realms.
But it is what it is. This crop of designers made their gamble. The next group will make their own. Perhaps it will swing back, perhaps not.
The dead nature of the Realms forums indicates to me most people are tired of reading the same "We hate Post-Spellplague" complaints over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over again.
Nothing ruins a person’s fun more than seeing their original post get side tracked by anti-4e Realms complaints.
Or maybe it isn't the "We hate Post-Spellplague" complaints, maybe they are tired of the threads being derailed over & over & over & over & over again.
When a place (real or imaginary) develops a bad reputation people will start to avoid it. Eventually the place becomes a wasteland only visited by the curious or die-hards looking for a small glimmer of hope for a return to normalcy.
*Ahem*
Mystra makes a minor come back this August in Bury Elminster Deep.
The dead nature of the Realms forums indicates to me most people are tired of reading the same "We hate Post-Spellplague" complaints over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over again.
Nothing ruins a person’s fun more than seeing their original post get side tracked by anti-4e Realms complaints.
Or maybe it isn't the "We hate Post-Spellplague" complaints, maybe they are tired of the threads being derailed over & over & over & over & over again.
When a place (real or imaginary) develops a bad reputation people will start to avoid it. Eventually the place becomes a wasteland only visited by the curious or die-hards looking for a small glimmer of hope for a return to normalcy.
*Ahem*
Mystra makes a minor come back this August in Bury Elminster Deep.
There's some validity to this, but there are a couple problems with just blaming forum silence on people who dislike the product.
First, there's no real opposite side, with loads of people saying that they really like it.
Second, I haven't seen any laudable mention of 4E Realms -anywhere- on other sites.
If people like something, they say so. If it's a great product and tons of people really love it, the positive always drowns out the negative. Have you posted about the different things you like about 4E Realms, or do you just "use" it because it's out?
Is there a positive show of fans on any gaming site? Are there really good reviews of it on gaming sites, such that fans comment that they really agree and like what's been done?
Sure, there are random dots and blips where this person or that person says that they play and use it, but there are far more in the way of negative reviews and commentary posts than positive ones.
But it's easy to blame those of us who don't like it, so go with that.
I do still love the Realms, though. In some ways, more than ever.
I love that the God that I hate the most is Lawful Good (Torm, may his divine entrails be slowly consumed and reconstituted daily for all eternity). I love that there's a cold war on, and it involves all my old favorites. I love that there are slave arenas in Calimshan (I made a Shadar-kai assassin who ended up there and got captured and put in the arena in Memnon).
Sometimes, I think that 4e Realms is just a better setting than previous editions Realms. I liked reading Realms books, but I didn't really want to play there. Now, I want to do both.
I never really connected with Torm, he's always just seemed deadly dull to me. At least how he's been presented in the game and novels so far isn't that interesting IMO. *shrug*
With the "cold war" I'm not sure which you're referring to? The Netherese vs. everyone else? Or something more to do with Cyric and the rest of the gods?
Calimshan's always had slaves, and arenas were popular as well.
I'm glad that you like the new Realms, but honestly for me they've been completely ruined. I've only bought two post-Spellplague novels, and no gaming materials at all. Where I used to buy almost everything for 20-odd years, I now buy nothing.
And really, the dead nature of the Realms forums indicates to me that a lot of people are similarly dissatisfied with the new Realms.
But it is what it is. This crop of designers made their gamble. The next group will make their own. Perhaps it will swing back, perhaps not.
I was referring to netheril. Because it's a decent analog for the real world cold war, in a lot of ways.
As to Calimshan, there was slavery, and arenas, but those weren't something that was at the forfront of the area. It wasn't a key part of what made Calimshan special, and you probably weren't going to be kidnapped and sold whilst walking down the streets of Calimport. Now, it's a place where non-genasi must fear being randomly captured and pressed into slavery, there to possibly face a short and brutal life in the arenas.
It's awesome. And the one free city fighting to maintain it's independence....it's just a sweet place to go/come from now, whereas before it was pretty cool if you wanted middle-eastern ish feel without being from Al-Quadim.
The dead nature of the Realms forums indicates to me most people are tired of reading the same "We hate Post-Spellplague" complaints over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over over & over & over & over & over again.
Nothing ruins a person’s fun more than seeing their original post get side tracked by anti-4e Realms complaints.
Or maybe it isn't the "We hate Post-Spellplague" complaints, maybe they are tired of the threads being derailed over & over & over & over & over again.
When a place (real or imaginary) develops a bad reputation people will start to avoid it. Eventually the place becomes a wasteland only visited by the curious or die-hards looking for a small glimmer of hope for a return to normalcy.
*Ahem*
Mystra makes a minor come back this August in Bury Elminster Deep.
There's some validity to this, but there are a couple problems with just blaming forum silence on people who dislike the product.
First, there's no real opposite side, with loads of people saying that they really like it.
Second, I haven't seen any laudable mention of 4E Realms -anywhere- on other sites.
If people like something, they say so. If it's a great product and tons of people really love it, the positive always drowns out the negative. Have you posted about the different things you like about 4E Realms, or do you just "use" it because it's out?
Is there a positive show of fans on any gaming site? Are there really good reviews of it on gaming sites, such that fans comment that they really agree and like what's been done?
Sure, there are random dots and blips where this person or that person says that they play and use it, but there are far more in the way of negative reviews and commentary posts than positive ones.
But it's easy to blame those of us who don't like it, so go with that.
As for this, I'm more interested in what new players think of the Realms, and what new players would prefer to play if presented with 4e and 3.5 realms, side by side.
I have no idea what the most likely answer is, of course.
In the end though, I don't really care what the general thoughts are on the setting, I love it, and and very glad that the spellplague happened.
As for this, I'm more interested in what new players think of the Realms, and what new players would prefer to play if presented with 4e and 3.5 realms, side by side.
I have no idea what the most likely answer is, of course.
In the end though, I don't really care what the general thoughts are on the setting, I love it, and and very glad that the spellplague happened.
Totally agree, people should only care about what they themselves really like and not whether something is popular (or not) with a general crowd.
It would be very interesting to know what brand new gamers would choose, if they playtested both. I'm not sure what the result would be either. Both would likely have an appeal, although in rather different ways. 4E Realms would likely be better for those who prefer streamlined and simplified world settings, where DMs have a slate that is 75% blank; it also has a plethora of widely available PC races of unusual variety (e.g. dragonpeople, genasi, etc.) for those who don't like "standard" humans, elves and dwarves. OTOH, the older versions of the Realms might appeal to those who like deep history and the presence of established NPCs all over the place, and perhaps a more "classic" fantasy world approach.
So yeah... hard to say.
I was referring to netheril. Because it's a decent analog for the real world cold war, in a lot of ways.
As to Calimshan, there was slavery, and arenas, but those weren't something that was at the forfront of the area. It wasn't a key part of what made Calimshan special, and you probably weren't going to be kidnapped and sold whilst walking down the streets of Calimport. Now, it's a place where non-genasi must fear being randomly captured and pressed into slavery, there to possibly face a short and brutal life in the arenas.
It's awesome. And the one free city fighting to maintain it's independence....it's just a sweet place to go/come from now, whereas before it was pretty cool if you wanted middle-eastern ish feel without being from Al-Quadim.
Ah, okay, Netheril. I can definitely see the cold war you're talking about. There are definite positives for a DM when you have an evil nation on the doorstep. The pre-4E Thay accomplished this theme for me.
For myself, I rather prefer a Calimshan ruled by humans. Genasi just don't do anything for me. I loved Al Quadim / Zakhara, but you're right it's very far away. Calimshan pre-4E served a similar purpose, and all the djinn-efreet stuff was fairly unique and rare. It was the stuff of legends where intreped adventurers might find a djinn bottle in an ancient and half-buried ruin. I think I also prefer human-centric deep plotting, different pashas (or minor nobles or even wealthy merchants) working against each other to pull the PCs this way and that.
But I can definitely see the appeal for you also, with a genasi-controlled society pushing around slaves and forcing them into arenas. Myself, I probably would've just had PCs jump planes to accomplish something similar, perhaps taking them to the City of Brass.
Anyway... probably getting too far afield of the main topic. I'd be glad to continue on a new thread if you want to keep with this topic.
As for genasi... I can't really say I've ever found them appealing either. Just never done much for me, to the point that I don't think I've ever mentioned (or thought) them in any of the campaigns I've run.
So yeah... the Realms was... more... Realmsy... with Mystra around, so we're glad she's coming back. Yeah, that's it. (just to keep vaguely, kinda-sorta on topic)
So yeah... the Realms was... more... Realmsy... with Mystra around, so we're glad she's coming back. Yeah, that's it. (just to keep vaguely, kinda-sorta on topic)
Hopefully people will forgive me for dropping by long enough to add a caveat to Sigger's post, "we're glad she's coming back... as long as it is the right Mystra." For me, any Mystra/Mystryl that is pre-Midnight is good, but 2.0 was always my favourite. Her teasing interactions with El, most of the time hanging just out of reach, but as a continual (and welcome) presence, gruntled me to a significant degree.
I won't wade into the edition side-trek as anyone who knows me already has a pretty good idea of what my feelings are, whether they care for them or not, on the subject.
Totally agree, people should only care about what they themselves really like and not whether something is popular (or not) with a general crowd.
It would be very interesting to know what brand new gamers would choose, if they playtested both. I'm not sure what the result would be either. Both would likely have an appeal, although in rather different ways. 4E Realms would likely be better for those who prefer streamlined and simplified world settings, where DMs have a slate that is 75% blank; it also has a plethora of widely available PC races of unusual variety (e.g. dragonpeople, genasi, etc.) for those who don't like "standard" humans, elves and dwarves. OTOH, the older versions of the Realms might appeal to those who like deep history and the presence of established NPCs all over the place, and perhaps a more "classic" fantasy world approach.
So yeah... hard to say.
Ah, okay, Netheril. I can definitely see the cold war you're talking about. There are definite positives for a DM when you have an evil nation on the doorstep. The pre-4E Thay accomplished this theme for me.
For myself, I rather prefer a Calimshan ruled by humans. Genasi just don't do anything for me. I loved Al Quadim / Zakhara, but you're right it's very far away. Calimshan pre-4E served a similar purpose, and all the djinn-efreet stuff was fairly unique and rare. It was the stuff of legends where intreped adventurers might find a djinn bottle in an ancient and half-buried ruin. I think I also prefer human-centric deep plotting, different pashas (or minor nobles or even wealthy merchants) working against each other to pull the PCs this way and that.
But I can definitely see the appeal for you also, with a genasi-controlled society pushing around slaves and forcing them into arenas. Myself, I probably would've just had PCs jump planes to accomplish something similar, perhaps taking them to the City of Brass.
Anyway... probably getting too far afield of the main topic. I'd be glad to continue on a new thread if you want to keep with this topic.
Ah, the City of Brass.
As interesting a place as it is, I really like having a place that can serve a similar function (at least in some ways) right in the Realms. And of course, I love having a nation that used to be everything that Calimshan was, and is now in a state of civil war, etc. It gives me a conflict to care about other than Netheril. Seriously, those are the only big conflicts I'm really interested in in a deep way. There are other little things that are cool. Some stuff in Imaskar, for instance, but the eastern heartlands and Calimshan are my two new favorite places to adventure in/come from. Pre-4e I just came from waterdeep or something, depending on what class/race I was, and where a good place to get training was. (My Bards usually came from Waterdeep, for instance.)
But anyway, sure. If you'd like to start a thread to discuss Calimshan and the purpose it serves in the realms, etc etc, go for it. I'd love to go into it in more detail.
From reading Empires of the Shining Sea, I always got the impression that Calimshan was the slave nation of the western Realms, with most of the nations population being slave labor. About the only thing they wouldn't enslave were dwarves (goes back to Shanatar lending them a hand way back in the day), everyone else being fair game. My usual impression was that it could make Mos Eisley look like a pretty welcoming and friendly place unless you had a lot of gold at your disposal.
As for genasi... I can't really say I've ever found them appealing either. Just never done much for me, to the point that I don't think I've ever mentioned (or thought) them in any of the campaigns I've run.
I never understood it to be that crazy with the slavery, to the point of a majority slave population, or being a brutally vicious place to be, but that could just be a matter of what my group focused on, I suppose.
Perhaps it was the sum of my reading, and the references to it in sources like the City of Splendors and Lands of Intrigue boxed sets, or The Code of the Harpers and the various Volo's Guides, but it all pointed to the Calishites being some pretty screwed up people from a pretty screwed up culture that was largely based on corruption and exploitation of everyone and everything around them.
Hopefully people will forgive me for dropping by long enough to add a caveat to Sigger's post, "we're glad she's coming back... as long as it is the right Mystra." For me, any Mystra/Mystryl that is pre-Midnight is good, but 2.0 was always my favourite. Her teasing interactions with El, most of the time hanging just out of reach, but as a continual (and welcome) presence, gruntled me to a significant degree.
No, no forgiveness for you.
Seriously though, I greatly prefer the pre-Midnight Mystra to the Midnight version. That one just never quite sat right with me... Any way it goes though, I can't say I have enough interest in 4e as a gaming system to really bother investing in the 4e Realms in the first place, and in any case, I find it a bit too dystopic for my liking as a game setting.
New Calimshan thread is up.
*okay, so it's not exactly Arabian, close enough!
I always figured that any place the church of Ilmater found the need for so many of their clergymen to be present in wasn't really a great place to live, if you catch my meaning there... toss in groups like the Janissaries feeling a need to exist, the political leaders all coming from organized crime families, the presence of the Twisted Rune controlling about half of everything from the shadows, the Rundeen, and so many power-mad wizards running around, among other threats... it all spelled a pretty bleak existance for your average commoner. It was about as corrupt a government as I can think of in the Realms.
Perhaps it was the sum of my reading, and the references to it in sources like the City of Splendors and Lands of Intrigue boxed sets, or The Code of the Harpers and the various Volo's Guides, but it all pointed to the Calishites being some pretty screwed up people from a pretty screwed up culture that was largely based on corruption and exploitation of everyone and everything around them.
Fair enough. We mostly used it as a place where, if you're willing to risk being cheated, you can procure just about anything. A haven for thieves and a place where the adventurers can indulge themselves in an inviroment where no one really expects them to give back or be selfless. Basically, a place where they don't have to be Big Damn Heroes.
It was easy to ignore the bad stuff by virtue of the simple fact that the PCs were bloody rich.
Incidentally, right when I got into the Realms was right after 4E FR came out, after picking up Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet on a whim. I looked at the 4E books and my reaction was 'Wait why the hells is this popular'. I looked at the pre-4E books, and then I understood. Much of what I like continues to be the older edition, and most of the things I'm 'Hey cool that's awesome' about are either not in 4E FR, or are simply irrelevant due to time jump/whatever. It was frustrating, reading about x cool thing that was utterly useless in the 4E FR.
So... Given a choice between 4E and pre-4E as a new player, I wound up anti-4E FR. Pre-4E FR scratches my itches so much better. (And I prefer 1E-2E FR over 3E and will never personally use some of 3E's stuff. LP never happened. WotSQ didn't either.)
(Although I'm anti-4E in general, in some ways. I hate the fluff of the entire edition. But I started with 3.5, quickly came to love what I had available there, fell in love with the 3.x core pantheon, loved Manual of the Planes, then discovered Planescape and pre-4E FR and 4E's fluff just doesn't do it for me, be it FR or Core.)
some of its good, but if all you do is alienate your existing fanbase to attract a new fanbase, then one gains nothing save having to spend money to correct the issue that you made in the first place.
you will either like eberron over the realms or you will like the realms over eberron.( insert Dark Sun or another setting where appropriate)
I for instance, I did not like the 3.x or 4e manual of the planes....
I also prefer the 3rd edition frcs, as it does not read like a travel brochure.... and the map is much better detailed.
family guy is coming on so...
IMO, pre-4e FR was pretty lame, overall. Thay felt like a comic book villain, that kept coming up with sweet plots, and failing at executing them. Or superman (Elminster or someone) would just step in and end the plot by being better than everyone at everything. Ever.
Why the hell would I care about getting a quest from Elminster or anyone associated with him to go kill things in Myth Drannor and retrieve some relic, knowing full well that any enemy that my group manages to defeat, Elminster could have defeated by peeing on them.
In fact, why should I care about Mystra, when Elminster would probably be a better god of Magic? In point of fact, a better god of magic already existed, in Azouth.
And then there were the silly "take a country from Earth's history and drop it in the Realms somewhere" places, which I not only didn't care about, but actually pretty strongly disliked. (Except for Al-Quadim, of course. But nothing was mentioned of it, so I can still just assume it's there, but has no active, meaningful relationship with the main bits of Faerun.) Even if they had bombed it though, I'd understand. The setting felt like it was made of silly bullsh** with the inclusion of those places.
I really doubt that most new players would prefer to play in the old FR. Then again, I strongly believe that 4e is a vastly and meaningfully better roleplaying game than 3rd edition, even more so than 3rd was vastly and meaningfully better than 2e (which it definately was. looking back, 2e was acceptable, but not terribly good.)
But, as they say, to each their own. Hells, really, we both at least have a Realms we're interested in when it comes down to it, so fair play I guess.
Invert that opinion of yours there DBW, and you pretty much have my viewpoints on the Realms. ;)
But, as they say, to each their own. Hells, really, we both at least have a Realms we're interested in when it comes down to it, so fair play I guess.
Fair enough. I do wish that they'd put out a new FR supliment, though, with some extra stuff for playing during/just after the spellplague, and more details on parts of the world that didn't get much, along with a compilation of what they've put out in the mags so far...Maybe two books, I suppose...
Heck. Same for Eberron and Dark Sun, maybe. If their fans feel that there's a lack.
Oh, back on topic. Am I alone in thinking that Azouth had magic covered, and would have been a better Magic deity?
"If you build it(it, her, him....whatever....) they will come....." Hi, what did I miss?
Well I thought I saw Lord KArsus's alter ego over at Candlekeep...
Oh, back on topic. Am I alone in thinking that Azouth had magic covered, and would have been a better Magic deity?
Not alone, possibly, but I for one don't agree. The Lord of Spells is, for me, exactly that. He always came across as a good deity for the uses of Magic, how Magic might be woven into spells and dweomers and the many secrets it could conceal or reveal.
For Magic itself? The raw power of creation from which such effects could be crafted? Not so much. Too staid, too structured, too bound by the extant precepts of the Art. Mysta, in her very wildness (2.0, not Midnight) always represented, for me, Magic itself. Nobody's pet but everybody's lover ;).
Oh, back on topic. Am I alone in thinking that Azouth had magic covered, and would have been a better Magic deity?
Could be... I know I certainly don't share the sentiment. Though I might be inclined to agree over Midnight, she did kinda annoy me at times. Pre-ToT Mystra though, certainly not. Azuth was always a bit too... lacking, I guess, for me to get that into him. I rather liked the feminine force behind magic, at least from a metaphysical sense, so Mystra always appealed, at least before Midnight anyway. And even she was tolerable, if not necessarily ideal.
Oh, back on topic. Am I alone in thinking that Azouth had magic covered, and would have been a better Magic deity?
Not alone, possibly, but I for one don't agree. The Lord of Spells is, for me, exactly that. He always came across as a good deity for the uses of Magic, how Magic might be woven into spells and dweomers and the many secrets it could conceal or reveal.
For Magic itself? The raw power of creation from which such effects could be crafted? Not so much. Too staid, too structured, too bound by the extant precepts of the Art. Mysta, in her very wildness (2.0, not Midnight) always represented, for me, Magic itself. Nobody's pet but everybody's lover ;).
I guess magic itself, in the sense in which you speak, never struck me as something that needed to have it's own patron deity. It's always seemed like something that works better with a few deities patronizing it's use/study/furtherance, but the force itself should (imo) be left alone, in a sense.
To me, what you describe as Azouth being a good deity for, is exactly what a God of Magic should deal with. Maybe give him a twin, who deals in wild magic and the channeling of arcane power without ritual and formula. That is, have a god of Wizards, Swordmages, Artificers and a different god of Sorcerers, Bards...maybe warlocks, and have those gods be closely related. Perhaps having a somewhat competitive relationship.
I see Azouth, in this hypothetical, being the who defines what the extant precepts of The Art are. I'd probably through a bit of Deneir into him for good measure. A bit of the mathematician, founder of the fundamental formulas and theories upon which all later magical development stands, constantly working to expand and improve The Art through careful study and experimentation. As close to a god of science as one gets in a magical world.
So, across the Snakes and Foxes board from Azouth sits his twin sister, Lelai, Mistress of The Arcane. Protector of those born with magical ability, and those who channel arcane magic through unconventional means. Her followers would have small hospitals to help those magic users who damaged themselves through unwise experimentation, or trying to channel too much power.
I suppose I would consider only having a deity for the use of Magic like saying there should not be a deity for the Seas, only for Sailors and Fishermen, or that Nature should not represented, only Hunting and Forestry. I don't know, but that always felt a bit... limited.
And unlikely if we're going to be honest about it, given the history of deities in the Realms, where more abstract portfolios seem to be the norm, rather than the exception.
@DoctorBadWolf's point:
As to the twin sister idea, an interesting concept, except that Azuth used to be mortal, and I doubt he brought his sister along for the ride... unless of course you mean in a metaphysical sense of the word 'twin'...
@ Iluvrien's point:
And unlikely if we're going to be honest about it, given the history of deities in the Realms, where more abstract portfolios seem to be the norm, rather than the exception.
@DoctorBadWolf's point:
As to the twin sister idea, an interesting concept, except that Azuth used to be mortal, and I doubt he brought his sister along for the ride... unless of course you mean in a metaphysical sense of the word 'twin'...
Hey, Mask used to be mortal, and yet his consciousness is described as going back to the beginning of time. :P Gods don't actually have to make perfect sense. That's one of the perks. Thor can hate all Jotuns, and yet be the son of one, and have a son by another. And the contradictions can extend into the metaphysical as well. A god can have a twin even though he used to be mortal and never had siblings, or had them but none of them are his god twin.
As for the magic deity thing, Nature and the Sea make sense to me for having a god for them. (awesome sentence. I deserve an award for that. :P ) I just don't see Magic as being similar to Nature or The Sea, or Music even, in the sense of being something that one singular patron makes sense for.
btw you make it sound like every watching god and his mother has a metatwin... and you might as well re retcon 4e fr's pathenon and bring back all of the dead and gone/reclassified gods back.
Praise the ART and praise Mystra 2.0.
Ogmha... patron of Bards.....
btw you make it sound like every watching god and his mother has a metatwin... and you might as well re retcon 4e fr's pathenon and bring back all of the dead and gone/reclassified gods back.
Praise the ART and praise Mystra 2.0.
How do I make it sou like every god has a metatwin? Why would "it's entirely possible" translate to "it happens every time, always."?
And I don't want to retcon or re retcon anything. I want Mask to come back, and he probably will in Kemp's new trilogy. I want Shaundakul to finally get mentioned in 4e, and hopefully still be a god. I don't want Mystra, because I don't think Magic itself really needs a divine patron. I'd rather have Azouth, and maybe a new deity to govern wild/anti-traditional magic.
I know Oghma is the patron of Bards, but as the god of knowledge, I've never thought of him as a good patron god for Bard characters who focus on their magic, more than their Bardic Knowledge. Still a cool god, but my Bards tend to worship wanderer gods, or gods involved directly with music, or a racial god that fits, etc. Correlon and Shaundekul are frequent picks.
I'm guessing you don't see magic as a primal force in the world then. My view is that magic is an intrinsic part of nature, something that's there and in motion, even if no one is around to see it or use it or whatever. Hence my desire to have a deity of magic itself, not just its use. To be honest, I never much liked Azuth as a deity, and would have preferred he was more like the Magister (in concept, not practice), which I think would have made him a bit more interesting... not quite a god, but certainly far more than mortal.
Though I agree with you on the Oghma part with magic-heavy bards. It's just not a good match really, though I thought Mystra worked decently, if not quite ideally for them. I was getting warmer on the idea of Finder as a patron for magic heavy bards, but even that was a bit lacking. One of my players had a half-elf bard, heavy on the magic use, who took Garl Glittergold (for the illusion aspect) and Brandobaris (for some of her more... creative uses of magic) as her patrons, which worked suprisingly well I must admit, and it kind of took a life of its own over the course of the campaign.
A metaphysical twin then... I suppose I could live with that sort of idea. Though in that sense I'd probably call it more of a mirrored reflection than a twin, but language does tend to get in the way on these boards at times, so...
I'm guessing you don't see magic as a primal force in the world then. My view is that magic is an intrinsic part of nature, something that's there and in motion, even if no one is around to see it or use it or whatever. Hence my desire to have a deity of magic itself, not just its use. To be honest, I never much liked Azuth as a deity, and would have preferred he was more like the Magister (in concept, not practice), which I think would have made him a bit more interesting... not quite a god, but certainly far more than mortal.
Though I agree with you on the Oghma part with magic-heavy bards. It's just not a good match really, though I thought Mystra worked decently, if not quite ideally for them. I was getting warmer on the idea of Finder as a patron for magic heavy bards, but even that was a bit lacking. One of my players had a half-elf bard, heavy on the magic use, who took Garl Glittergold (for the illusion aspect) and Brandobaris (for some of her more... creative uses of magic) as her patrons, which worked suprisingly well I must admit, and it kind of took a life of its own over the course of the campaign.
Here's my thing. Light is an inherent part of the universe, right? I don't see the need for a singular god of light. I can see having multiple gods with Light in thier portfolios, but not a singular god of light. Pelor is cool though. Good aligned god of the sun. Yes.
To me, magic is the same. It's an inherent part of the universe, but it's mostly passive unless interacted with by intelligent beings, or made part of a magical being. Is mystra also the goddess of magical creatures? Dragons, unicorns, etc? Half the monsters we regularly fight?
Should there be a god of moisture? Or should there instead be various gods of things that involve moisture?
That's pretty much my thoughts on why we don't need a singular god of magic itself. YMMV
As to the whole twin thing, I just like the idea for magic gods, and I think that the followers of the gods would be more likely to use a term like twin, than a term like mirrored reflection. Lends itself to religious language, along with kennings and other poetic language. "Azouth's wild twin" is a fun way to refer to the other magic god. Azouth's mirrored reflection sounds like a spell. :P Again, YMMV. I just think that twin is the word most likely to see any kind of common use. That, and they're gods, so if they say they're twins, they're twins. Doesn't matter if Azouth had a twin before becoming a god.
Anyway, what about Elminster and The Simbul? Not exactly what I want, but if Elminster could be convinced to keep his nose out of stuff....
maybe a third magic god, and evil one? have a good, unaligned and evil magic god? It works in DL...
But still have them be gods of the use of magic, not the universal force itself.
A metaphysical twin then... I suppose I could live with that sort of idea. Though in that sense I'd probably call it more of a mirrored reflection than a twin, but language does tend to get in the way on these boards at times, so...
I'm guessing you don't see magic as a primal force in the world then. My view is that magic is an intrinsic part of nature, something that's there and in motion, even if no one is around to see it or use it or whatever. Hence my desire to have a deity of magic itself, not just its use. To be honest, I never much liked Azuth as a deity, and would have preferred he was more like the Magister (in concept, not practice), which I think would have made him a bit more interesting... not quite a god, but certainly far more than mortal.
Language is always get in the way with me, can't wait for spanglish to be an official language lol.
I agree with the magic part as well specially in the realms where the Weave was(and is in my campains) pretty much tangeble element.
Here's my thing. Light is an inherent part of the universe, right? I don't see the need for a singular god of light. I can see having multiple gods with Light in thier portfolios, but not a singular god of light. Pelor is cool though. Good aligned god of the sun. Yes.
To me, magic is the same. It's an inherent part of the universe, but it's mostly passive unless interacted with by intelligent beings, or made part of a magical being. Is mystra also the goddess of magical creatures? Dragons, unicorns, etc? Half the monsters we regularly fight?
Should there be a god of moisture? Or should there instead be various gods of things that involve moisture?
That's pretty much my thoughts on why we don't need a singular god of magic itself. YMMV
As to the whole twin thing, I just like the idea for magic gods, and I think that the followers of the gods would be more likely to use a term like twin, than a term like mirrored reflection. Lends itself to religious language, along with kennings and other poetic language. "Azouth's wild twin" is a fun way to refer to the other magic god. Azouth's mirrored reflection sounds like a spell. :P Again, YMMV. I just think that twin is the word most likely to see any kind of common use. That, and they're gods, so if they say they're twins, they're twins. Doesn't matter if Azouth had a twin before becoming a god.
Anyway, what about Elminster and The Simbul? Not exactly what I want, but if Elminster could be convinced to keep his nose out of stuff....
maybe a third magic god, and evil one? have a good, unaligned and evil magic god? It works in DL...
But still have them be gods of the use of magic, not the universal force itself.
Normally I'd agree with you about not every universal constant needing a deity behind it, at least not enumerated, so to speak. However, as Ody pointed out, in the Realms we have (or did anyway) the concept of the Weave, which I think does justify the existence of a singular deity behind the force of magic, namely Mystra. In a setting like DL or Grayhawk, it wouldn't make much sense due to the ways the worlds are presented and the core presumptions being made... Faerun however has a different set of assumptions and workings, obviously, that do allow a concept like Mystra to work, and even make quite a bit of sense, even if that wouldn't work or make sense in other settings.
As to the god of magical creatures... I'd say that was split somewhat between Lurue and Malar, with the good and neutral ones mostly going towards Lurue, while the more malignant and evil ones going with Malar. There are some exceptions of course, racial monster/non-human deities and all that, but I think those two worked for pretty much everything else that wasn't covered by another deity.
As to moisture, I'd say that was more a byproduct of other things, rain, evaporation, condensation, etcetera and so forth, so it would be silly to have a deity that represented that.
I suppose what it comes down to is how things are viewed in a given setting as to what merits a deity or not. In Faerun, magic is very prevalent and in the spotlight, so having a singular (hopefully more like pre-ToT Mystra) deity does make sense if most societies don't make a differentiation in the magic itself, only its use. Its all still magic, and while the individual casters might be associated with particular deities, there's enough naturally occuring phenomena (stuff like Sparks, DMZ/WMZs, etcetera) and such that's just viewed as magical, period, without being associated with any alignment or philosophy that would represent just casters to make Mystra almost a necessity to make sense of the world.
Normally I'd agree with you about not every universal constant needing a deity behind it, at least not enumerated, so to speak. However, as Ody pointed out, in the Realms we have (or did anyway) the concept of the Weave, which I think does justify the existence of a singular deity behind the force of magic, namely Mystra. In a setting like DL or Grayhawk, it wouldn't make much sense due to the ways the worlds are presented and the core presumptions being made... Faerun however has a different set of assumptions and workings, obviously, that do allow a concept like Mystra to work, and even make quite a bit of sense, even if that wouldn't work or make sense in other settings.
As to the god of magical creatures... I'd say that was split somewhat between Lurue and Malar, with the good and neutral ones mostly going towards Lurue, while the more malignant and evil ones going with Malar. There are some exceptions of course, racial monster/non-human deities and all that, but I think those two worked for pretty much everything else that wasn't covered by another deity.
As to moisture, I'd say that was more a byproduct of other things, rain, evaporation, condensation, etcetera and so forth, so it would be silly to have a deity that represented that.
I suppose what it comes down to is how things are viewed in a given setting as to what merits a deity or not. In Faerun, magic is very prevalent and in the spotlight, so having a singular (hopefully more like pre-ToT Mystra) deity does make sense if most societies don't make a differentiation in the magic itself, only its use. Its all still magic, and while the individual casters might be associated with particular deities, there's enough naturally occuring phenomena (stuff like Sparks, DMZ/WMZs, etcetera) and such that's just viewed as magical, period, without being associated with any alignment or philosophy that would represent just casters to make Mystra almost a necessity to make sense of the world.
I always figured that the Weave existed as an explanation for Mystra's importance, rather than being something that would have existed even had Ed decided the realms needed no magic goddess.
Magical critters: See, that's my point. If Mystra is the goddess of magic itself, why isn't she the goddess of creatures that exist because of magic? Is it perhaps because she should have just been the goddess of the use of magic, rather than the cosmic force itself?
Rain is drops of moisture falling in great numbers. Rain doesn't exist without it. All those things are the product of moisture interacting with other forces.
You make a good point with how people view magic, but I think that in the world of 4e, the need for her has been eliminated. People understand magic as a cosmic force, and that there are different ways that it is accessed, etc. The Weave has been explained as something that Mystra imposed on magic, which makes more sense to me than it being an inherent part of the nature of magic. With her gone, the weave is gone with her, and the world is better off.
Making magic items is easier, for one thing. :P That's going to naturally make the world a better place, given time. Easier to make means cheaper to procure, and leads to the common man being better off. :D
As to the Weave, it was a convention that existed, that made Mystra necessary. With 4e, that got retconned out, and as such, the rationale behind her in a bit superfluous, but as I don't play 4e or in the 4e Realms, I tend to ignore that explanation. Beyond even that though, I'd tend towards the thought that the Weave still exists, it was just fundamentally altered in how it interacted with living things for whatever reasons. As to it being better off, I suppose that depends on how one views magic in 4e... I see it as much weaker and not nearly as versatile from my read of it, so I'd hardly call it better off. But to each their own in that respect, and I will admit I'm not that conversant as to 4e's particulars.
With magical creatures... I see living things as a bit different from primal forces of reality. She may empower their existance, but that doesn't mean that she speaks for them or looks after them beyond providing a means for them to exist, and perhaps directing her servants to act as conservators for them. Nor should she, as that would step on the toes of a lot of other deities that are more concerned with nature and living things.
However, my time is being cut a bit short, so that will have to suffice for a response for now.
As to the Weave, it was a convention that existed, that made Mystra necessary. With 4e, that got retconned out, and as such, the rationale behind her in a bit superfluous, but as I don't play 4e or in the 4e Realms, I tend to ignore that explanation. Beyond even that though, I'd tend towards the thought that the Weave still exists, it was just fundamentally altered in how it interacted with living things for whatever reasons. As to it being better off, I suppose that depends on how one views magic in 4e... I see it as much weaker and not nearly as versatile from my read of it, so I'd hardly call it better off. But to each their own in that respect, and I will admit I'm not that conversant as to 4e's particulars.
With magical creatures... I see living things as a bit different from primal forces of reality. She may empower their existance, but that doesn't mean that she speaks for them or looks after them beyond providing a means for them to exist, and perhaps directing her servants to act as conservators for them. Nor should she, as that would step on the toes of a lot of other deities that are more concerned with nature and living things.
However, my time is being cut a bit short, so that will have to suffice for a response for now.
Even before 4e, I never thought it made sense that the Weave existed before and without Mystra. To me, the Weave always spoke of formulaic arcane magic, or at least controlled magic. While there may have been wild magic that came from the Weave, that never felt right. It felt forced, IMO.
And to me, if Mystra isn't concerned with beings of magic, then she isn't concerned with all magic, and thus her Weave shouldn't govern all magic. It's like having a God of rain, and then making that god the god of all Water. Suddenly that god has to be the god of everything that involves water, which in our world at least, would include pretty much everything.
My own take is that they didn't worship Mystra in other regions mostly because they didn't think to look for her, or didn't really believe in her in the same way Faerunians did. But that doesn't mean she wasn't there, just that she was more quiet and circumspect about her connections to those lands.
But, just as validly, she was a fraud who put up all this Weave crap to gain control over magic and its practicioners. Depends on how you choose to view her and the Weave.
I'd say that they preponderance of what we know of the Realms points more towards the Weave always existing (the Sisters of Light and Darkness tale lending further credence, if not quite proof to that theory), and that this "the Weave was a inhibitor to keep us down" notion is just yet another theory out there, one among many, even if socially dominant at the moment. But, as 4e might say, its your Realms, do what you want with it.
The Weave was a lie, a LIE I tell you. It was used so Mystryl/Mystra could better regulate and control magic. But the Weave wasnt nesecary to use magic. Ed Greenwood has hinted before the magic could be done with out the weave, and how big was the Weave supposed to be anyway? Did it encompus all of Faerun? Or all of Toril? There were many magic-users throught out Toril who didnt even worship Mystra, like in Kara-Tur and Maztica. Did the Weave encompas all of Realmspace? Magic-users could still cast spells on other planets, or even on other planes. If youre cut off from the Weave cause youre on another plane, but you can still cast spells, I mean are we to believe that the Weave existed in all the Planes? That would make Mystra incredibly, Ao like, powerful!
Yet another problem with the Weave, imo.
And again, either way, in 4e the Weave is gone, and magic still works.
Stigger, I think the "it's your realms, do what you want with it" mentallity is the best thing that could have happened to gaming in the realms. I played in an alternate "spellplague didn't happen" realms game a while back, and the DM had changed a list of things about the realms as time passed, to work better for his story. This DM would never have done that back in the day, because he always got caughtr in the canon trap. The game was awesome.
OH, and something I missed earlier. Magic in 4e isn't any less versatile, I'd say. There is a very broad list of magic items and rituals now that can do all manner of fun things. Farms can be outfitted with magic tools, because it's a lowlevel enchantment, and hey, enchanters don't have to sacrifice xp to make magic items! lol
As to magic... as much as I'd probably be labelled a heretic and power-gamer, the xp cost of magic items and such was something I never paid attention to. It struck me as a very stupid rule that should have died before it was even born. Then again, I can't say I was ever that enthralled with Vancian magic and its conceits... now WW's Mage: The Ascension was my idea of magic on the other hand, without the inane metaplot anyway (which was also a rather glaring problem with the Realms as far as I'm concerned). Having said that however, I am fairly impressed with Pathfinder as a Ruleset (though not as much as DCA/MM3e), if not necessarily by the setting itself, as I find it a bit too dystopic for my liking these days, with the same being able to be said about SW Saga Edition.
I definitely made the Realms my own, but it seemed like alot of the stuff I changed ended up actually happening. Like Hillsfar for instance, looking at the map in FR Adventures, theres no docks, which I thought was a little odd being as theyre right on the Moonsea, so I put in a little dock town just outside of the city, then they put out that 2e Moonsea sourcebook and guess what? Hillsfar has a little dock town. We ended up destroying Zhentil Keep, refounded Myth Drannor, which ended up happening, I even had it planned out that Cyric was going to kill Mystra, Im sorry guys, 4e is all my fault!
Damn you. I knew you were R. B. in disguise forcing his version of the FR on us.
The Silver_Sword must be stopped. ;)
Though on a more serious side....wait sorry I can't take anything about 4th ed FR seriously.
I definitely made the Realms my own, but it seemed like alot of the stuff I changed ended up actually happening. Like Hillsfar for instance, looking at the map in FR Adventures, theres no docks, which I thought was a little odd being as theyre right on the Moonsea, so I put in a little dock town just outside of the city, then they put out that 2e Moonsea sourcebook and guess what? Hillsfar has a little dock town. We ended up destroying Zhentil Keep, refounded Myth Drannor, which ended up happening, I even had it planned out that Cyric was going to kill Mystra, Im sorry guys, 4e is all my fault!
Damn you. I knew you were R. B. in disguise forcing his version of the FR on us.
The Silver_Sword must be stopped. ;)
Though on a more serious side....wait sorry I can't take anything about 4th ed FR seriously.
Really? Because I have a much easier time taking it seriously than I did 3e FR.
Really? Because I have a much easier time taking it seriously than I did 3e FR.
Meh...only in the last years of 3rd ed days...but that was the same writters who gaved us 4th ed FR...and most of it was just set up for 4th ed FR.
Really? Because I have a much easier time taking it seriously than I did 3e FR.
Meh...only in the last years of 3rd ed days...but that was the same writters who gaved us 4th ed FR...and most of it was just set up for 4th ed FR.
I pretty much thought that the entirety of the 3e Realms was largely silly crap. 2e wasn't much better, IMO.
I enjoyed a lot of the stories from those eras, but as a roleplaying setting? Screw that noise, I'll go play somewhere else. Heck, even some of the story stuff ended up being lame.
I really don't get the Salvatore appeal. Or rather, the extent of it. Loved the Cleric Quintet, and the earliest Drizzt books. Other than that, meh.
SOme of the Elminster books were really good, though. And the whole time of troubles thing was one of the things that got me into reading FR books, rather than looking at the campaign setting, and saying, meh. "Cliche fantasy world with the added bonus of random kingdom that's a direct and intentional rip off of some place on earth. Bored now."
Oh, and Kemp's Cale books are fantastic.
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As both Azuth and Mystra "worked with" the Scrolls in private, it is highly likely that they bonded themselves to particular scrolls, and so can eventually "come back" from utter destruction (probably as past versions of themselves, just as Manshoon's awakened clones are copies of his younger selves), through some as-yet-unknown-to-mortals process.
i keep hearing she ll be back.. but how? when? and from where do people hear/read it? help please...
When 5th editon will come. The ywill use her return to explain the new system for magic.
true enough
but she will never really be back
www.wizards.com/dnd/product.aspx?x=dnd/p...
Not if Ed has anything to say about it!
i keep hearing she ll be back.. but how? when? and from where do people hear/read it? help please...
When 5th editon will come. The ywill use her return to explain the new system for magic.
true enough
but she will never really be back
Heh... Truer words were never spoken.
Oh, wait, that's right, I'm pretty much alone in my belief that they will announce 5th Edition at GenCon this year.
i keep hearing she ll be back.. but how? when? and from where do people hear/read it? help please...
When 5th editon will come. The ywill use her return to explain the new system for magic.
true enough
but she will never really be back
Heh... Truer words were never spoken.
Oh, wait, that's right, I'm pretty much alone in my belief that they will announce 5th Edition at GenCon this year.
1. its too soon, I might buy next year
2. even if they bring back Mystra it wont be the same
i keep hearing she ll be back.. but how? when? and from where do people hear/read it? help please...
When 5th editon will come. The ywill use her return to explain the new system for magic.
true enough
but she will never really be back
Heh... Truer words were never spoken.
Oh, wait, that's right, I'm pretty much alone in my belief that they will announce 5th Edition at GenCon this year.
1. its too soon, I might buy next year
2. even if they bring back Mystra it wont be the same
I dunno, im willing to bet that they are hard at work on 5th edition even as we speak, whether or not they announce it, or even release it anytime soon is another matter. I really wisht theyd pick a system and stick with it, ya know? 3e was fine, but then look out 3.5! Then 4e! And Essentials, all within what, about a 10 year timespan? Thats just crazy, talk about overload, ya know? What they should do is make 5e real simple, kinda like 1e, no crazy powers, or skills, feats, or none of that, class, race, ac, hitpoints, and gear, thats all you need, member those days? Then they could put out more books that add on to that, with feats, skills, powers, whatever, and make it all optional rules, kinda like they did with 2e with all the complete dwarves handbook and all that, many of those introduced new ways to do things, slightly different mechanics, stuff like that, that way if its optional, its not part of the core rules, I think thats a big mistake they made with 4e, everything is core rules, dont matter if its FR or Darksun or Eberron or whatever, its all core rules, talk about edition bloat, ya know?
But im getting way off topic now.
ANd yeah if they did bring her back it wont be the same, but thats what I love about the Realms, its never the same, its constantly changing, just as a real world would, make it seem more alive to me.
