Ok, with that out of the way, here is my question. Like some people, I LOVE Gnomes. I think they are grand. And one of my biggest problems with 4e has been the radical change that has overcome my beloved race. However, I figured that come the Campaign Settings (FR, Ebberon, and Grayhawk especially), we would HAVE to receive a little more info (at the very least) about the Gnome Situation (as I like to call it).
However, while Gnomes are mentioned in the glossary (see Quiet Ones, The), and while Garl and Gond are both still listed as Gods (though not greater deities), there is, as far as I can tell, no other mentions of Gnomes anywhere in the FRCS. And this leads me to my biggest problem with the FRCS. Either Wizards figured not enough people would care about Gnomes to notice their total, unexplained absence from the Realms, or Wizards just doesn't care if people notice (a take-it-or-leave-it attitude).
So, has anyone else noticed anything I missed in the FRCS that sheads a little more light on the Gnome Situation? I can only imagine that since they were not in the LFR pre-campaign standard, that Gnomes won't be appearing in the FRPG (although I am still hoping and praying), and it doesn't seem like a DDI article on them is incoming anytime soon.
So yeah, if you know something I don't PLEASE pass it along...Cause I love me some Gnomes and I love me the wackiness they cause, and if you look inside (DEEP inside for some of you) you will realize you love them too.
Thanks In Advance,
DragonDai
P.S. I did notice the three sentences on Lantan being 100% wiped out by a giant tsunami. Thanks for the Dues Ex Machina, Wizards...but I am just not buying it...an island where the inhabitants had flying machines couldn't find SOME way to keep themselves from being TOTALLY annihilated by some rain and some waves? Give me a break.
the gnome will be in the phb2.
as for where they are likely to be in FR, baldurs gate would be where to search for them...
-Forgotten Folk, indeed.
P.S. I did notice the three sentences on Lantan being 100% wiped out by a giant tsunami. Thanks for the Dues Ex Machina, Wizards...but I am just not buying it...an island where the inhabitants had flying machines couldn't find SOME way to keep themselves from being TOTALLY annihilated by some rain and some waves? Give me a break..
Considering how wiseless they are at times...
They are listed as: Small Fey Humanoid (Gnome).
Considering how wiseless they are at times...
Well, it wasn't just Gnomes on Lantan...in fact, Gnomes weren't even the majority.
-The Gnomes aren't in the Player's Handbook as a playable race. They'll be in the second one, though. So, until that time, don't expect to see much information about Gnomes.
I could have SWORN that I read somewhere that if something (say Gnomes) was printed in one book (the MM) then it would NOT receive coverage in any other print material (say PHB2 or FRPG) and that any coverage it received would be solely from DDI, if it got any (example: Warforged being in DDI and not in the forthcoming ECS). I could be totally wrong, and after searching for this reference for a while, I still can't find it. But I could have sworn...
And finally, as an avid Gnome player, what am I supposed to do until the PHB2 comes out, in regards to LFR? I am a HUGE fan of LG, and I plan on playing LFR no matter how much i dislike the setting (a lot) or how much I dislike the new mechanics (a bit) simply because some of the best role-playing encounters I have ever had (as opposed to ROLL-playing) have been while playing LG at cons, and I want that to continue.
And I know, I know, Wizards doesn't have to bend to me, cause I am only one person and who cares what the average, long-time D&D player thinks, as long as they sell more books and make more profit, right?
But seriously, it does seem a little off that one of the main races in FR won't even be playable in LFR until a year(ish) after the setting starts...doesn't it?
Ciao,
DragonDai
have a look in it if you havent already.
The 1st level adventure H1: Keep on the Shadowfell has at least one gnome NPC in it with full game statistics.
They are listed as: Small Fey Humanoid (Gnome).
And when did Gnomes suddenly become Fey? Are they like midget elves all the sudden?
That would make me the saddest boy ever...and the size of that retcon gun! Lordy...Anyways....
Ciao,
DragonDai
the gnome has a current character write up in the MM or so Im told.
have a look in it if you havent already.
They do, it is about 1/10th the size of a normal race write up, is missing things like racial feats and a full salvo of racial abilities, labels them Fey (see above), and (according to the header at the top of that section in the MM) seems to make their inclusion in a Shared World Living experience an unlikely thing...
Ciao,
DragonDai
"IF" there will be any npcs listed in the frpg, they will be in there the same way druids will be, no racial powers for the gnome and no class powers for druid.
I know you didnt ask about the druid....
I could have SWORN that I read somewhere that if something (say Gnomes) was printed in one book (the MM) then it would NOT receive coverage in any other print material (say PHB2 or FRPG) and that any coverage it received would be solely from DDI, if it got any (example: Warforged being in DDI and not in the forthcoming ECS). I could be totally wrong, and after searching for this reference for a while, I still can't find it. But I could have sworn...
-I don't know if anyone ever said that, but Drow are getting stats as PCs in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, even after being given stats in the Monster Manual, so...If that was the plan, it's not anymore.
And finally, as an avid Gnome player, what am I supposed to do until the PHB2 comes out, in regards to LFR?
-I'd suggest going to the Living Forgotten Realms section, and asking this specific question there, in regards to playing a Living Forgotten Realms game.
But seriously, it does seem a little off that one of the main races in FR won't even be playable in LFR until a year(ish) after the setting starts...doesn't it?
-Yes.
-Where they are at in Realm space is simple. The Feywild. They are Fey now where we like it or not, or you can change it if you like. So when the Feywild came back near Toril (we got it now lets use it!) they escaped most of the destruction of the spellplague. Well with the exception of Latan and maybe some other places. ;)
18DELTA :P
-Gnomes will be detailed fully in Players Handbook 2. They will get racial feats and all that Jazz. :D
-Where they are at in Realm space is simple. The Feywild. They are Fey now where we like it or not, or you can change it if you like. So when the Feywild came back near Toril (we got it now lets use it!) they escaped most of the destruction of the spellplague. Well with the exception of Latan and maybe some other places. ;)
18DELTA :P
Why did they suddenly become Fey? Elves have a great, in-game, cannonish reason to be fey and not know it, but Gnomes? I am not saying they can't be fey, I would just like an in-game, explanation for the Realms.
DragonDai
P.S. I did notice the three sentences on Lantan being 100% wiped out by a giant tsunami. Thanks for the Dues Ex Machina, Wizards...but I am just not buying it...an island where the inhabitants had flying machines couldn't find SOME way to keep themselves from being TOTALLY annihilated by some rain and some waves? Give me a break..
*goes to make a Katrina joke, then realizes its in bad taste for people not from Houston*
I could have SWORN that I read somewhere that if something (say Gnomes) was printed in one book (the MM) then it would NOT receive coverage in any other print material (say PHB2 or FRPG) and that any coverage it received would be solely from DDI, if it got any (example: Warforged being in DDI and not in the forthcoming ECS). I could be totally wrong, and after searching for this reference for a while, I still can't find it. But I could have sworn...
I'm thinking you heard wrong, as I've never heard of such a thing, and I'm pretty on top of these matters. And as Karsus pointed out, that's obviously not true as Drow, which have appeared in the MM, are appearing as a fully statted out race in the FRPG. In addition, it's pretty much a given that Gnomes will become a fully statted out race in the PHB2.
And finally, as an avid Gnome player, what am I supposed to do until the PHB2 comes out, in regards to LFR? I am a HUGE fan of LG, and I plan on playing LFR no matter how much i dislike the setting (a lot) or how much I dislike the new mechanics (a bit) simply because some of the best role-playing encounters I have ever had (as opposed to ROLL-playing) have been while playing LG at cons, and I want that to continue.
You can check out eBay for the card that allows one to play a Gnome. Or you can play some other character until the PHB2 comes out in March (there's also a card for playing an Orc and a Shadar-Kai).
I'm thinking you heard wrong, as I've never heard of such a thing, and I'm pretty on top of these matters. And as Karsus pointed out, that's obviously not true as Drow, which have appeared in the MM, are appearing as a fully statted out race in the FRPG. In addition, it's pretty much a given that Gnomes will become a fully statted out race in the PHB2.
I am thinking you are right, and while it sucks we got to wait until PHB2, at least we will get Gnomes eventually...
You can check out eBay for the card that allows one to play a Gnome. Or you can play some other character until the PHB2 comes out in March (there's also a card for playing an Orc and a Shadar-Kai).
Oh, you mean the super special GenCon only Promo cards that are going for 85 dollars for the set on Ebay? Yeah, lol...I Love Gnomes...and if I was super rich, I wouldn't bat an eye on the 85 bucks to be "allowed" to play a Gnome in LFR...but as a starving college student who didn't go to GenCon cause he was broke...yeah...Thanks Wizards...you sure learned how to get people to spend enormous globs of cash on things you should be giving them for free (like the option to play a race that is important to the world in question).
Ciao
DragonDai
Why did they suddenly become Fey? Elves have a great, in-game, cannonish reason to be fey and not know it, but Gnomes? I am not saying they can't be fey, I would just like an in-game, explanation for the Realms.
DragonDai
It's called a retcon. Gnomes are Fey because they were always Fey.
It's called a retcon. Gnomes are Fey because they were always Fey.
Exactly. Check out the Forest Gnome in RoF. This is how I always liked them. Not the tinker crap DL came up with.
And finally, as an avid Gnome player, what am I supposed to do until the PHB2 comes out, in regards to LFR?
If you have a gnome card (not easy to come by, but I got one), you can play a gnome early using the stats from the MM (which are enough mechanically to play a gnome - everything else, imo, is flavor).
I am playing a gnome (a gnomer artificer, and yeah I am off to Lantan!).
As to gnome being fey: That is a classification that elves and eladrin have, and it makes sense even though it is sort of a RetCon.
More on topic for this forum: just because the FRCG doesn't mention gnomes doesn't mean they don't exist. They may not have had much to say about them. I may be due to them lacking a place where they are a majority.
The FRCG is very condese, as I understood, so if it is not mentioend it hardly means it doens't exist. Warforhged aren't mentioned either, and they exist as well (and yeah, I know that is a bad example).
It just doesn't make a lot of sense for in one edition, 3.x, for them to be closely related to Dwarves, and now, suddenly, we find out, oh, actually, the are closely related to elves instead.
Anyways, just a personal thing really...
More to the matter, does ANYONE out there have a Gnome card from GenCon they aren't going to use? I would be willing to pay a fair price for one, and I know that many people who got one are in the "Official Gnome Punters Society" or some other similar organization, so heres hoping...
Ciao,
DragonDai
Exactly. Check out the Forest Gnome in RoF. This is how I always liked them. Not the tinker crap DL came up with.
-I've always had the Gnomes in my own setting more of a mix between the two.
It's called a retcon. Gnomes are Fey because they were always Fey.
Nah, I just assume that after a few generations of surviving and breeding in the Feywild, the already naturally magical Gnomes just adapted and became Fey themselves.
Gnomes are in the back of the MM as a playable race. People seem to forget this fact. ;)
What does that have to do with the topic?
What does that have to do with the topic?
Um, Gnomes...playable...FR?
-I've always had the Gnomes in my own setting more of a mix between the two.
Sort of seems a bit odd to mix the two though. Forest gnomes are secretive and recluse. Tinkers are, well, pretty much self apparent. How do you get a mix out of that?
The only way I can see it is if that certain gnomes broke out for the big city or something.
In the Northdark entry of the Underdark section, the deep gnomes have reclaimed Blingdenstone, with support from Mirhral Hall and Silverymoon.
There are probably more referances I just didn't notice on the first reading, but there are definately still gnomes in the Forgotten Realms.
Sort of seems a bit odd to mix the two though. Forest gnomes are secretive and recluse. Tinkers are, well, pretty much self apparent. How do you get a mix out of that?
The only way I can see it is if that certain gnomes broke out for the big city or something.
-They inhabit cities (Gnomish and Human), but are mystical folk, who are big into alchemy and chemistry and similar sciences.
Um, Gnomes...playable...FR?
Sorry, still don't get it. What does gnomes being a playable race or not have to do with where they went in FR?
Sorry, still don't get it. What does gnomes being a playable race or not have to do with where they went in FR?
It makes it much easier to create a background for a character if you have an idea of where they are from. It determines attitudes and beliefs in some cases.
-What I think our caffeinated friend was saying is that it doesn't matter if they're a playable race or not, mechanically, since that doesn't solve the problem of Gnomes being non-existent in the FRCG, and no reasons for them being non-existent, either.
Yeah, this is exactly what I was trying to say. I want them to be playable in Living FR (which they are, sorta). But that wasn't the point of the post...the point was I was wondering where and how often they were mentioned in the new FRCS and why, as it seemed to me, they got so little space in said book. And I was just wondering if there was anyone who could point me to some references (Thanks Morbien :OD I appreciate it). And it was to get some dialogue going about my favorite race ever. :OD
So thanks to those whom helped out and what not :OD
Ciao,
DragonDai
My sister said this, on where the Gnomes are: "I'm a monster...RAWR".
Better be a tyke, 'cause her intelligence and yours are entwined.
Better be a tyke, 'cause her intelligence and yours are entwined.
-You make no sense.
rock gnome=short dwarf
forest gnome= fey
Well, they are, despite their size, a cunning people and most likely saw what was coming their way with 4E. Hence, they took the opportunity to jump off the train at the second to last stop on the line ...
Hear me, my brothers and sisters! And second cousins. And that guy from next door. No train-wreck, but a grand victory this has been for all of gnome-kind! Victory, I say! :evillaugh
And when did Gnomes suddenly become Fey? Are they like midget elves all the sudden?
Anyways....
Ciao,
DragonDai
I've always seen them as fey; foresty types that put donkey masks on you while sleeping and then enchanting.
I like what they've done with the gnomes of Golarion, traumatized by their exodus from the realm of fey, they suffer from an affliction they call the Bleaching. I'm including that into FR gnomes.
No longer do people question whether gnomes should be present at all, but cry outrage for the lack thereof!
Actually, people are just complaining why they were not invited when FR 'took leave' of those small guys. :P
not just them, Elves are fey, Halflings are fey, and some elves are now Eladrin and they are fey.
Halflings are fey? Are you sure? I don't recall that.
So even though the surface gnomes of Lantan have been wiped off the map, it appears their underground cousins are still kicking around, at least. If the Player's Guide has nothing on using them as PCs, I'm betting they'll be more formally reintroduced into the Realms in a DDI article at some point (probably after the PHBII hits the shelves).
So even though the surface gnomes of Lantan have been wiped off the map, it appears their underground cousins are still kicking around, at least.
Not all (or even most) surface gnomes lived on Lantan, though. Just saying.
Where did the gnomes go?
-Are there any D&D settings that are Gnome heavy?
What does that have to do with the topic?
Sorry, still don't get it. What does gnomes being a playable race or not have to do with where they went in FR?
Sorry, dude—speaking of the topic on hand, not the thread topic. Though, the two are still entwined.
-They inhabit cities (Gnomish and Human), but are mystical folk, who are big into alchemy and chemistry and similar sciences.
Yuh, but the tinker thing still seems to come with machinery. Alchemy and chemistry is one thing, but mechanical thingy-mujig’s are another.
My sister said this, on where the Gnomes are: "I'm a monster...RAWR".
-You make no sense.
And either do you, unless your sis’ is a child that spontaneously bested out with: "I'm a monster...RAWR".
Yuh, but the tinker thing still seems to come with machinery. Alchemy and chemistry is one thing, but mechanical thingy-mujig’s are another.
-The...pursuit for answers reflects their 'Tinker Gnome' influence.
And either do you, unless your sis’ is a child that spontaneously bested out with: "I'm a monster...RAWR".
-Have you seen the D&D cartoon on the website on the matter of Gnomes, perchance?
-The...pursuit for answers reflects their 'Tinker Gnome' influence.
Then place it in DL and not FR.
-Have you seen the D&D cartoon on the website on the matter of Gnomes, perchance?
Not at all.
Should I visit such link to disturb myself?
Not at all.
Should I visit such link to disturb myself?
-There are three Flash animation cartoons- one dealing with a Gnome- that were made during the 3e to 4e transition. You can find them on the WotC main site. I, personally, didn't really care for any of them, though the one with the Mindflayer gave me a few chuckles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo
The cartoon with the gnome is very funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo
Kickin' lil' furry creatures rox!! :D
-There are three Flash animation cartoons- one dealing with a Gnome- that were made during the 3e to 4e transition. You can find them on the WotC main site. I, personally, didn't really care for any of them, though the one with the Mindflayer gave me a few chuckles.
Now I see.
Doubt I'll be watchin' the others though.
Now I see.
Doubt I'll be watchin' the others though.
-The one with the Mindflayer was decent.
Not all (or even most) surface gnomes lived on Lantan, though. Just saying.
Never said they didn't live anywhere else, but while I'm here, let's look at gnomes in the Realms:
As FR races go, gnomes were on par with the aarakokras & saurials - they were simply never big players in the grand scheme of things. They never factored in on any big events in the overall history of the Realms, & aside from Lantan & Blingdenstone (both trashed now), they had little or nothing going for them politically or culturally speaking. No historical significance, no major population bases, no cool groups or organizations, & no popular gnome NPCs out there.
In other words, gnomes in the Realms were just plain dull.
Since they were widely considered the least popular PC race in 3e & were especially relegated to watching from the sidelines in the Realms, maybe someone finally decided not to bother devoting any book space on gnomes. At best, I expect a brief entry in the FRPG on making gnome PCs, just to please the gnome fans out there. Barring that, maybe a DDI article about using gnomes in the 4e Realms once the PHB II is out - but my money's on the PHB II being the sole source of info for them, & gnome fans will just have to make do with that.
I wish I had a pdf version of the book, could do a search and see how many times the word "gnome" actually does get mentioned, but it's definitely a 2-digit number.
The "Forgotten Folk" of the Realms live in out of the way hills and forests, and dislike joining large organizations. They also take little or no part in major events, and rarely make war, and never as conquerors. (This is the combined abbreviated description from Gray Box and 3e FRCS).
So, apart from the followers of Gond, and the occasional member of an adventuring party, Gnomes go out of their way to stay out of other race's notice.
As FR races go, gnomes were on par with the aarakokras & saurials - they were simply never big players in the grand scheme of things. They never factored in on any big events in the overall history of the Realms, & aside from Lantan & Blingdenstone (both trashed now), they had little or nothing going for them politically or culturally speaking.
You wouldn't know that, because the vast majority of the history of the Realms has never made it into any sourcebooks.
You wouldn't know that, because the vast majority of the history of the Realms has never made it into any sourcebooks.
See, I try to stay out of Ed Greenwood's house ever since that time I was accidentally buried under this really big stack of unpublished love letters between Elminster & the Simbul (some were pretty racy). Hard to deal with those terrifying memories, but now that I think about it, I'm sure there were also a couple of absolutely fantastic gnome epics in there, as well as a very tasty-sounding recipe for gnomish butter tarts.
In other words, I really don't feel like debating about material that DIDN'T see print in sourcebooks, since those sourcebooks are what I use to play D&D.
-Asides for being an Elven city, the city of Myth Dyraalis was also a Gnomish city. Songfarla was another Gnomish realm.
Elves. Not only do Gnomes lose their own language, but they have to learn ELVISH instead. Plus, Garl Glittergold (not a major god anymore) has to rent space on a plane with an Elven landlord.
Elves. Not only do Gnomes lose their own language, but they have to learn ELVISH instead. Plus, Garl Glittergold (not a major god anymore) has to rent space on a plane with an Elven landlord.
Gnomes never had their own language in FR.
Gnomes never had their own language in FR.
Actually they did.
Actually they did.
You're right, I was thinking of gray box, which states they never developed a written language of their own.
Two strikes.
Yes they did. They just used the Dwarvish script for it. The 3.5 PH talks about books in Gnomish language.
Two strikes.
I clarified by saying Gray box (1st edition), so, 3e actually changed/violated (gasp! shudder!) cannon in stating that the gnomes had their own written language.
Elves. Not only do Gnomes lose their own language, but they have to learn ELVISH instead. Plus, Garl Glittergold (not a major god anymore) has to rent space on a plane with an Elven landlord.
-You gotta do what you gotta do.
Admittably there is reason to believe either way; the halfling NPC featured in FRCG for example doesn't list Halfling among languages, but on the other hand Jarlaxle is missing Common from his list, and kir-lanan have their very own language as a new addition.
I reserve the right to be wrong until FRPG comes out, but to my current knowledge only core gnomes lost their racial language in 4E.
Admittably there is reason to believe either way; the halfling NPC featured in FRCG for example doesn't list Halfling among languages, but on the other hand Jarlaxle is missing Common from his list, and kir-lanan have their very own language as a new addition.
This time I checked... Halfling is not listed among the langauges of the core game, Halfling speak Common and can take one other, but Halfling isn't a choice. Have to wait and see if PG has their racial language as well as regional languages (which I hope are still in place).
Admittably there is reason to believe either way; the halfling NPC featured in FRCG for example doesn't list Halfling among languages, but on the other hand Jarlaxle is missing Common from his list, and kir-lanan have their very own language as a new addition.
Jarlaxle is a Drow living on the surface, and therefore falls under the "Drizzt-Uber-Umbrella" for any Drow that prefer to hangout on the surface.
They are SO much cooler then everyone around them, that they can tap into the Kewl power-source and do virtually anything.
The only non-Drow ever to achieve this level of Uber-kewl was Chuck Norris. The Fonze came close, but then he jumped the Shark. ;)
I'm betting there are a few more references hiding throughout the FRCG as well, but it already appears the little guys are poppin' up everywhere in the 4e Realms.
Just wanna toss it out there that in the section on Waterdeep, gnomes are listed along with halflings as the primary residents of the Warrens, a large underground neighborhood located under Dock Ward & Castle Ward.
I'm betting there are a few more references hiding throughout the FRCG as well, but it already appears the little guys are poppin' up everywhere in the 4e Realms.
Yes, and orcs now have their own kingdom. Yet, they are not playable.
Before, gnomes (rock and forest at least) were mainly in:
Lantan had the largest population of gnomes in Faerun. It was completely wiped out by tsunamis during the Spellplague.
Thesk. The FRCG talks about shy gnomes who avoid strangers. They also lived in the city-state of Milvarune, which still seems to exist, but nothing about it is described in the FRCG.
The Great Dale. No mention of gnomes here in the FRCG.
The Western Heartlands. No mention either, but almost no one lives there anyway.
So most were killed and some are in hiding.
Here is hoping I can get my hands on a Gnome card...
DragonDai
Here is hoping I can get my hands on a Gnome card...
-Apparently, they are very expensive.
So most were killed and some are in hiding.
Or they are just not important enough to be mentioned in such a magnificent compendium full to the brim with lore and more.
-Rich Baker had THIS to say on Gnomes.
Bejebuz with a jackhammer.
While I am well aware that gnomes weren't prominent in FR material, when they were, they were anything but fey. To simply say that they always were is...is...
I give up.
Yes, and orcs now have their own kingdom. Yet, they are not playable.
They are playable though. In the back of the MM they are statted out so you can run a PC as an orc. So they are playable, just like minotaurs, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears ect.
They are playable though. In the back of the MM they are statted out so you can run a PC as an orc. So they are playable, just like minotaurs, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears ect.
That was more of a sarcasm thing, my man. ;)
That was more of a sarcasm thing, my man. ;)
Oops. Sorry.
To simply say that they always were is...is...
-A retcon?
-A retcon?
Careful saying that word, or Rich Baker will come to your house & wash your mouth it with soap!
Probably some kinda gnomish soap, too, & I'm betting that stuff's just nasty-tasting.
Careful saying that word, or Rich Baker will come to your house & wash your mouth it with soap!
-He's all the way there, and I'm all the way here. I'm not worrying about that. ;)
Probably some kinda gnomish soap, too, & I'm betting that stuff's just nasty-tasting.
-Gnome soap, I think, would taste like acorns.