Ok, so I was mapping out a series of buildings and I ran across a problem. What are the bathrooms in FR like? do they have in door plumbing? do they use the medieval style of out house? or do they use magic to dispose of their unwanted wastes?
Excellent question. Some cities, such as Waterdeep and I think Scardale, have sewers that various heros have travelled around in. I wonder about less built-up places.
What are the bathrooms in FR like? do they have in door plumbing? do they use the medieval style of out house? or do they use magic to dispose of their unwanted wastes?
Depends on the area in which you live. Crude/decent in-door plumbing would be present in densely populated and/or well-to-do areas, such as Waterdeep or Cormyr's cities. Outhouses, I imagine, would be common in more rustic and dispersed lands like the Dalelands and Luruar. Magic-heavy areas such as High Imaskar would mainly rely on the third method.
Although I believe Ed encountered this question in the past over at Candlekeep. You might do well to check over there and search for an answer.
I knew about the cities, and I was unaware about Candlekeep.
The place that I was designing is a mercenary school/bounty hunter head quarters complex located in West Gate. They are somewhat seperated from the city, so i would think that a sewer line would be more difficult to run out there. what would you recommend for this situation?
I knew about the cities, and I was unaware about Candlekeep.
The place that I was designing is a mercenary school/bounty hunter head quarters complex located in West Gate. They are somewhat seperated from the city, so i would think that a sewer line would be more difficult to run out there. what would you recommend for this situation?
. Actually, I think it's possible the sewers might extend to the complex, if it's only "somewhat" seperated from the city proper. You could set it up so that the sewer system extends further in certain directions (such as the complex) than it does in others.
However, if you still don't feel assured: Are there mages in this mercenary school, or is this strictly a blade and bolt-style school? If the former, then I imagine it would not be too difficult to wave a few fingers and rid the complex of its waste problem. All it takes is one willing spellcaster, even a low-level one in my mind, to say the right words and make the entire school's leavings disappear to Ao-knows-where.
Not a lot of mages will be willing to be dung boys - even magical dung boys.
I would advise going the old fashioned way: outhouses, compost heaps for waste, and a drain to dump used water. Manual exercise is good and makes you strong.
A mage stuck in a waste clearance job might be the start of an interesting NPC.
I have a friend who after getting honors in mathematics at UC Berkeley found himself working for a movie theater cleaning toilets. This motivated him to go to graduate school and got a more appropriate job. If it can happen in real life, it can happen in the Realms.
Not a lot of mages will be willing to be dung boys - even magical dung boys.
I would advise going the old fashioned way: outhouses, compost heaps for waste, and a drain to dump used water. Manual exercise is good and makes you strong.
Well, I am asked him if there were already mages present in the complex. Cleaning waste wouldn't be their sole/primary task. If they're already there, and have other responsibilities which rank higher than dung-cleaner, I don't see many minding one additional (and simple) task, especially if it nets them a little more gold or thanks. It's a flick of the wrist and *poof* problem solved. Most mercenary mages aren't so proud that they wouldn't solve a problem to which they themselves contribute.
Looking at the mages portrayed in FR lore, 99.999% of them are uptight know-it-alls who feel themselves too good for such menial tasks. There can be exceptions, sure, but I think the gross majority of wizards would not wish to be known as the guy that cleans the toilets, and that is what they'll be known as among their peers, regardless of what else they do.
Now possibly there are other 'carreers' that may be able to do the same and not feel that urge to impress others, but (most) wizards? Nah.
Btw: manually clearing waste is likely how it is done at the Arrowpoint Institute (a school we used), as a means to teach discipline and self-reliance.
Gomez,
who'll note that, yes, HIS wizard PC, Valencia, would not mind. But I think she is among the exceptions, and I think most established wizards would not quickly count her as one of them.
Maybe they have magic toilets? Its has a portal that flushes everything into a watery part of the Elemental Chaos.
Of course they might have some angry primordials showin up.
Now, there's an adventure hook for you.
Ok, so I was mapping out a series of buildings and I ran across a problem. What are the bathrooms in FR like? do they have in door plumbing? do they use the medieval style of out house? or do they use magic to dispose of their unwanted wastes?
the stone throne so to speak, would be a stone sitting like an outhouse but indoors in cities like wterdeep.
and if said stone throne was in a wood house, thens its just a bench that drops into the sewers.
pipes even there I do not see.
I was think that maybe all toilet waste in the Realms gets magicaly shunted to the Supreme throne. Its all part of his imprisonment! It lands on Cyric!
PRAISE CURELLON!
so... thats where it goes on cyric...
To answer a previous question, the complex is the stronghold for a mercenary academy that is primarily non-magic based. The merc's will take anyone who shows combat ability and train them. Then the academy hires these (well) trained soldiers out to who ever pays. The academy does not teach spell casters on a regular basis (however some exceptions exist). The academy has a mutually beneficial partnership with the next door bounty hunters guild (sneaky/melee builds. low magic). So there is not a strong magical presence inherent to the academy or guild.
But the guild and academy have deals with mages somewhere because both use large amounts of magic arms,armor, and items. could they also have a deal worked out so that these mages clear the waste in exchange for compensation?
To answer a previous question, the complex is the stronghold for a mercenary academy that is primarily non-magic based. The merc's will take anyone who shows combat ability and train them. Then the academy hires these (well) trained soldiers out to who ever pays. The academy does not teach spell casters on a regular basis (however some exceptions exist). The academy has a mutually beneficial partnership with the next door bounty hunters guild (sneaky/melee builds. low magic). So there is not a strong magical presence inherent to the academy or guild.
But the guild and academy have deals with mages somewhere because both use large amounts of magic arms,armor, and items. could they also have a deal worked out so that these mages clear the waste in exchange for compensation?
But of course. As proud as most mages are, there are plenty who would do just about anything for the right price. Also, since you mentioned spellcasters are present, if rare, you could consider that to be a part of the complex's agreement with the mage-in-training: The mercenary leaders with knowledge of the arcane share their information with the aspiring spellcaster, and in return, the spellcaster is tasked with certain duties around the complex, one of which would be whisking the dung off to some distant place. This could draw ridicule from the other students, and turn this exception to the normal crowd into the enduring, determined "underdog", or an embittered and vindictive soul who cannot wait to have the last laugh. So he/she could be an interesting NPC, if given the right set-up.
Ive got to say this has got to be one of the most interesting threads
so true
speaking of which silversword, maybe you should change your avatar to a pic of the monkey king....
That would make for a very interesting NPC; sort of a vindictive person hidden within the compound who starts causing all kinds of havoc. (Side note: that could make for its own action/horror adventure(s) within itself).
I could also just add a small wizards guild to the entire complex. the wizards use the mercenary academy and bounty hunters guild for a basic level of protection. anyone trying to attack the wizards tower directly would have to either a) enter the tower magically and defeat the magic wards or b) clear a path the old fashioned way. in return the wizards could send their acolytes to "character building" training exercises with in the academy and bounty hunters guild. but i want to keep the mages separate or small because my overall campaign is based around the leader and founder of the academy is secretly Larithylar (the previously thought dead evil Lamia sorceress). I have a feeling that the mages would somehow be able to detect this fact (magic aura's and such).
And thank you, that's quite a compliment
speaking of which silversword, maybe you should change your avatar to a pic of the monkey king....
The Monkey King? Like from the Jungle Book? Uhhm i dont think so man. Im kinda of fond of the one i have. Its from the cover of Ars Magica 1st edition (2nd Print), my very first RPG that i ever got, so it has a special place in my heart, it was also the forerunner for Vampire and the whole WOD thing.
But back on topic, I definately see bigger cities like Waterdeep having indoor plumbing, possibly magical in nature. Smaller communities would probably have your typical out houses.
speaking of which silversword, maybe you should change your avatar to a pic of the monkey king....
The Monkey King? Like from the Jungle Book? Uhhm i dont think so man.
I believe he meant the one, the only, the powerful, the glorious, Great Sage Equal to Heaven, Sun Wukong!
I believe he meant the one, the only, the powerful, the glorious, Great Sage Equal to Heaven, Sun Wukong!
D'oh! Yes i believe you are right, that would make sense and tie in with his choice. I totally failed my Historical Chinese Reference check. The first thing that came to my mind was King Louie from the Jungle Book. I was wondering why he would want me to have a King Louie avatar.
And back on topic:
What do they use for TP?
no not the jungle book....
I believe he meant the one, the only, the powerful, the glorious, Great Sage Equal to Heaven, Sun Wukong!
D'oh! Yes i believe you are right, that would make sense and tie in with his choice. I totally failed my Historical Chinese Reference check. The first thing that came to my mind was King Louie from the Jungle Book. I was wondering why he would want me to have a King Louie avatar.
And back on topic:
What do they use for TP?
I would imagine they would use a similiar item to what they used in ancient rome.....
and what did they use in ancient Rome?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper
a sponge on a stick....
you know, this would be an interesting question to as someone at loremaster or candlekeep, but I'll let someone else ask
They used a piece of cloth or a sponge, tied onto the end of a stick.
Or was that the ancient Greeks? I always get those 2 mixed up.
they likely did something similiar in england, and the most highly paid person at court was the guy who waited hand and foot on the king, even wiping the royal buttocks......
Corellon's Sacred Blood, Candlekeep needs to update to forum software that doesn't date from the 90s.
The toilet paper question has been answered, in great detail, over on Candlekeep a few years back. Go find the 2006 Questions for Ed Greenwood thread, and you'll want the January 24 response from The Hooded one on page 7. There's a few more posts continuing the subject afterwards.
Aww cmon man cant you save us the trouble of going all the way over to Candlekeep and just tell us?
yeah by the lovely Selune you couldnt of just told us what it was....hahahahahahaha
Not after starting from the wrong fscking end of an 84 page thread and searching for the damned post by searching for the term 'toilet paper' on every freaking page. no. :P
Also, the answer is long and spans multiple posts. Whiny kids. :P
I love that I called Ed's answer in Post 3, yet no one took up the lead until Nai came along. Tsk. You're all getting lazy, except for the Feywarden. I blame video games and junk food. 
That would be yet another forum i would have to sign up for. Im having trouble enough keeping up with you guys on here, or with sfdragons questions over on Loremaster
tsk tsk tsk
I am on loremaster, wotc forums, candlekeep, bioware, obsdian, bethseda,GPG
and on a few other forums that went away due to the forum goers that up and left.
so now its currently 7 forums that I have passwords for, I see what your saying its alot of passwords to remember.i
it got old fast So I myself just one day said the hell with it and started writing them down so I wouldnt have to remember them.
Since people are lazy, here is Ed's reply, as brought to us by the lovely Lady Hooded :
I could, of course, go on for pages on the specifics of these related topics, but I’ll try to be brief. Toilet facilities across the Realms vary, from plain “seat with hole over pit” (some caravans carry along portable fold-flat wooden benches with hole-seats; folk who “need to go” tramp away behind cover, with folded bench under arm, and unfold it on any more-or-less level ground to “do their business;” many less equipped rural Realms inhabitants simply shuck clothing and squat) to the more elaborate outhouses and city facilities.
Aboard ships, chamberpots - - emptied by being let down into the water and “trailed along,” and then scrubbed with “swab-sticks” if need be - - are used (for seasickness as well as elimination), and there are “thunderchutes” in the overhanging cabins, or out on spars shrouded in tents of sails, for defecation directly down into the waves.
In city buildings, most toilet facilities consist of under-bed (or -inside chair, or inside-handy-cupboard) chamberpots. After use, these get emptied (and then rinsed out with jugs of water, and “swab-sticks”) into covered nightsoil buckets for dumping into cesspools, or into street wagons to be taken away. The grandest homes have “sluice-privies” (go into a closet-like room or into a curtained-off corner, sit on a permanently-emplaced seat, and flush when done by pouring jugs of water down the hole, perhaps sprinkling some flower-petal-scented water about to quell odours), though these facilities may be called anything from “jakes” to “garderobes.” In warm-clime cities, pull-chains may bring wash or flushing water down from roof cisterns.
As for the wiping of the behind, we have everything from “hand and sand on the riverbank” (or creekbank) to the “skid your bum along in the snow” practiced in rural areas, right up to elaborate scented brown “thareea” (wiping cloths).
Generally, in the wild away from handy water or snow, certain fresh-plucked green leaves are used (those that don’t have spines, cause skin reactions, or disintegrate in use), and the most popular leaves in the Heartlands are thallow leaves (think: really tough, almost rubbery green rhubarb leaves), which are large and so tough they can even be rinsed clean and re-used (if carried along in a pack or on a wagon, they dry up and shrivel into ragile uselessness in about three days). Smaller and less long-lived (but more plentiful) alternatives are the leaves of the arch-head and the yahllavur-fern; other regions of Faerûn have their own equivalents. “Skid your bum along the moss” is one alternative, but to avoid painful itching or worse, one must be careful just what moss.
Typical inn and tavern privies will only have stacks of leaves (kept in covered wooden buckets to maintain the damp and therefore keep them usable longer) if close to fairly safe large wooded areas and having plentiful labour (children) available for gathering.
Most inns and taverns have “garl-sticks” or thareea. “Garl-sticks” are smooth, stout, usually slightly curved sticks whose lower ends are wrapped in old scraps of cloth (sometimes tacked on, but usually the stick is slit in several places and the ends of the cloth are firmly seated in these clefts before the rest of the cloth is wound tightly around and around the stick). Garl-sticks “live” (cloth ends submerged, handles standing free) in buckets of red-wine vinegar, with another bucket of scented mintwater (or a sink with a pump, if well-water is plentiful enough) lashed in place beside it.
The user defecates, then takes the stick out of the vinegar, dips it in the mintwater to “cut” the vinegar, uses the stick to wipe their bum throughly, and then plunges it back into the vinegar for the next person. The wet but clean behind is dried on a “long-roll” (a bum-height shelf, all around the room, over the edge of which old cloth scraps have been tacked, and against which folk rub themselves; soiling a long-roll is the insulting height of boorishness), the clothes are restored to position (I covered Faerûnian undergarments in this thread two years back, I believe), and the relieved individual departs.
Thareea are almost always deep brown in hue, so as not to “boldly show forth” human excrement, and range from rough old scraps to washed-after-every-use, scented fineweave linens, depending on whose facilities you’re using, and either discarded after a single use, down a (dedicated to this purpose only) laundry-chute into a metal-lined cellar basin, for some poor servant to wash (in most palaces and noble mansions), or stacked on a handy stone (marble or polished granite) or tile counter inset with metal sinks and lined with rows of scented “cleaning waters,” for washing them clean after a use (there will be a broad drying rail to hang them on).
By contrast, a typical person dwelling alone in the countryside somewhere in the Heartlands will have an outhouse (a shovel of earth after every use keeps the flies and smell down, and the privy gets moved when the hole fills up), with a single seat-over-the-pit, two wooden buckets (or stout earthen jars set into hole-frames to keep them from being spilled or broken), and some hanging pegs. Most of the pegs are left vacant, for hanging cloaks and perhaps a lantern at night, but one will have the “guest yarhand” (a bum-scrubbing sponge for guests) hanging from it, dry and clean. One bucket will be full of water, for cleaning hands and the guest yarhand. The other bucket will be full of vinegar (usually soured wine), in which is soaking the owner’s personal yarhand, awaiting its next use. Yes, defecating involves a stinging behind - - but everyone’s used to that, from childhood.
There are other variants in various corners of the Realms, but that generally covers the subject.
Continues with:
As for The Masked Merfolk, specifically: servants (young lads and lasses sitting on ready-seats in the right locations, behind translucent curtains) know from observation when patrons are using the various facilities (there are gender-specific “mercy halls” [privies] on each floor, adjacent to the main stair).
After anyone exits, a servant works a foot-treadle pump that “jets” water from an overhead seawater cistern (the reeking harbour water is treated with strong perfumes in every cistern) down the sculpted-stone sloping trough (a narrow but smooth-bottomed channel) that underlies every row of sitting-stalls. The urinal “golden holes”-in-the-wall at the high end of the slope provide another rinsing stream, and from time to time the servants pop in, between guests, to smell; they have handy cupboards with buckets of powdered lime and scrubbing-sticks they can thrust down the holes to do more thorough cleaning. Excrement is sluiced out of the privies down pipes into the cellar, where the pipe takes it into the open hatch of a tank on a little barge (one of two such barges) floating in its own little slip in the cellar, walled off from the rest of the covered-over “undercanal” that services businesses all up and down that street with its own barred and chained doors. When the tank nears full, very late at night (or, if you prefer, early in the morning), a bell is rung in every mercy hall, the relevant servant closes the hall, the cellar doors are opened, and the full-tank barge is poled out. The other barge is moored in its place (and the mercy halls above re-open for business), the full barge is poled through the undercanals out into the harbor and lashed to other barges (the “stinkboats”), and then towed well out to sea AWAY from where the prevailing currents and winds would bring it back into the city, and barge after barge is overturned (by means of handles in their sides and long reaching-hooks) and dumped. In severe winter weather and in storms, the stinkboat fleet simply gathers in the center of the harbor, growing larger as more and more barges join it; Marsember’s harbour never truly freezes thanks to the warmth of all the people, their activities, and the underwater rottings their presence and filth causes. The next evening, the emptied barge is brought back, the mercy halls close again, the two barges are swapped so the newly-emptied one is waiting ‘above’ the now-filling one, and so the process continues, in the Merfolk and in many, many other places in Marsember (poorer abodes and establishments are served by wagons taking away full nightsoil buckets, for small “dumping fees”).
And:
Hi again, all. Ed finishes with Karth’s related plumbing questions, specifically: “what stops various deadly slimes/oozes from crawling up the average privy plumbing from the sewers beneath and turning an urgent visit into a sudden grave for various unsuspecting folk?”
Ed replies:
The obvious answer to this is that the “average privy” isn’t directly connected to any sewers beneath: it either empties directly into a small pit (and some have foot-treadle or floor-pull collapsing or sliding-aside “underfloors” a few feet under the seat, to be opened momentarily for dumping-down purposes only after the defecator is finished), or it empties into some form of storage that’s taken in buckets (sometimes via a wagon or barge) to a cesspool or dumping place elsewhere. In “dungeons” (and cellars built over known caves or Underdark connections, where monstrous intrusion may be feared or historically known), the aforementioned moving underfloors are usually built in.
In certain cities (Waterdeep or Zhentil Keep, for example; see scenes in CITY OF SPLENDORS or CROWN OF FIRE), an average privy may well be connected directly to sewers, and the danger you point to may be very real. Which is why places like that have sewer patrols, and hire adventurers or call in mage-guilds or wizards-for-hire to deal with nasty monsters - - sometimes, yes, after Aunt Aurauma has met with an unfortunate and undignified fatality.
Such bad things happen, but not as often as popular lore (where, like real-world “urban legends,” tales get told and re-told with local embellishments and additions) would have one believe.
*sniffs*
I would like to say that I agree with Gomez that no self respecting wizard will lower himself to such arduous work if he'd know traditional ways of removing excrements is done by children, washermen and wives.
If a mage is intimidated into such a position it wont last long, and a business agreement has to offer such a mage such high wages that its likely to cost the owner of an establishment far more than hiring some local commoners to do the dirty jobs will.
tsk tsk tsk
I am on loremaster, wotc forums, candlekeep, bioware, obsdian, bethseda,GPG
and on a few other forums that went away due to the forum goers that up and left.
so now its currently 7 forums that I have passwords for, I see what your saying its alot of passwords to remember.i
it got old fast So I myself just one day said the hell with it and started writing them down so I wouldnt have to remember them.
What are we supposed to be impressed?
no.
but should we be impressed with you or anyone else??
Yes. You should be very, very impressed by me.
Yes. You should be very, very impressed by me.
Being the first elf to slay 10,000 orc children with his bare hands in Corellon's name isn't something to boast of... unless you're in the EV.
thats what they all say.... and they all went to eberwrong
Thank you Gomez for the post! I did track that response down over in Candlekeep. Big place, i could get lost for days looking in its sacred halls. Nai Calus did give good directions though kudos too you too man.