- Did they "switch" to other religions?
- When did they die?
- Did they die "fully" (as in, they aren't Undead of any sort, or have their souls trapped, or whatever else)?
:coolcthul
They inherited the essence of a goddess. They are either trapped in the Simbul, Eliminster, or are floating in the Astral Sea as a result.
Was going to say something similar but since it was your idea first didn't want to get caught plagimarizing and make you start throwing your central american food at me. Hot sauce really stings
* Did they "switch" to other religions?
* When did they die?
* Did they die "fully" (as in, they aren't Undead of any sort, or have their souls trapped, or whatever else)?
for the seven sisters; most of the remaining the seven sisters seems to have died after mystra's death,
i doubt if they woul switch to another religion... heck mystra was the mother of seven sisters, not only their goddess...
as for khelben i guess his soul was spent in the creation of the city of hope so he wouldnt have been joined to mystra/or her petioner at the time of her death..
They inherited the essence of a goddess. They are either trapped in the Simbul, Eliminster, or are floating in the Astral Sea as a result.
wouldnt silver fire vanish with the death of mystra? i remember that they were safeguards against such an event but the spellplague and the lack of a new god of magic seems to prove that the death of this mystra was more absolute than before...and elminister seems to have lost most of his power so i have a feeling silver fire must be no more.
i wonder most about alovoen of ardeep if that is the case... can she at last find some peace in arvandor now that she would no longer enmeshed in a bouble of silver fire?
for the seven sisters; most of the remaining the seven sisters seems to have died after mystra's death,
-After 1,385 DR, there were 4 our of 7 left (Dove, Storm, The Simbul and Larael).
i doubt if they woul switch to another religion... heck mystra was the mother of seven sisters, not only their goddess...
-Not true. Qilue, for instance, was a Cleric of Eilistraee. And, if you look at some of the older Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, deities other than Mystra are listed as many of their deities.
as for khelben i guess his soul was spent in the creation of the city of hope so he wouldnt have been joined to mystra/or her petioner at the time of her death..
-His spirit went to Arvandor.
Is Elminster still alive then? If he is I'd like to use him in my new campaign setting...
Well, the insane part I can fix (or more exactly, my campaign can lead players to fix)
Good News, good news indeed.
Thank you again for your kind information, Suin Bahhar!
for the seven sisters; most of the remaining the seven sisters seems to have died after mystra's death,
i doubt if they woul switch to another religion... heck mystra was the mother of seven sisters, not only their goddess...
Like most Faerunians, the Seven Sisters didn't only worship Mystra. Also, the "new" Mystra wasn't really their mother.
Elminster and the Simbul survive laying low in Shadowdale, albeit both are considerably powered down and not exactly sane anymore.
Actually, I don't think it's specifically stated that the Simbul is in Shadowdale. We do know that she's somewhere in the Dalelands.
Not true. Qilue, for instance, was a Cleric of Eilistraee
not to disrespect lord karsus's and others vastly superior knowledge of forgotten realms, i was under the impression qilue's case was rather and exception; her being the 'black sheep of the family' . i feel (and yet again would defer to ur superior opinions in the matter) her situation with eilistraee shouldnt be an example of the seven sisters as a whole
although having read the blackstaff by schend i dont remember him going to arvandor was stated in the book... though i will check again, i would very much appreciate if someone can tell me if there are other resources about khelben's fate (i read the blackstaff tower and there wasnt much)
Also, the "new" Mystra wasn't really their mother.
indeed;
in stormlight the novel, storm's rather poignant words concerning the 'death' of their 'mother' seems to hint at her rather reluctant acceptance of a new mystra with whom she seems to have made peace near the end of the novel. in silverfall the words of the new mystra/midnight again seems to show a deep love for the seven sisters whom she sees as the legacy of the old mystra; i always thought this mutual feeling of midnight the goddess and seven sisters finding something of their old goddess/mother in the other the key to their relationship. hence the death of midnight would only feel like losing their mother again.. i will find it very out of character for the seven sisters paying fealty to a totally unrelated god
they didnt only worship mystra? i really seem to have missed which other god they worshiped ? the other members of the pentad comes to mind? was it the case?
Most people in Faerun are polytheists, and having read most of the novels (and much lore) involving the Seven, they don't appear to be exceptions to the rule. For example, Storm calls out to Tymora more than once in the novels (penned by Ed, too, creator of these characters).
although having read the blackstaff by schend i dont remember him going to arvandor was stated in the book...
If it wasn't stated outright, it was certainly implied, although I am unable to confirm this at the moment (this book is packed away right now).
indeed;
in stormlight the novel, storm's rather poignant words concerning the 'death' of their 'mother' seems to hint at her rather reluctant acceptance of a new mystra with whom she seems to have made peace near the end of the novel. in silverfall the words of the new mystra/midnight again seems to show a deep love for the seven sisters whom she sees as the legacy of the old mystra; i always thought this mutual feeling of midnight the goddess and seven sisters finding something of their old goddess/mother in the other the key to their relationship. hence the death of midnight would only feel like losing their mother again.. i will find it very out of character for the seven sisters paying fealty to a totally unrelated god
I would agree that the new Mystra is kind of still the mother of the Seven in the sense that there's more to her than simply a deified Midnight. She just isn't the very same Mystra who actually created them.
I would agree that the new Mystra is kind of still the mother of the Seven in the sense that there's more to her than simply a deified Midnight. She just isn't the very same Mystra who actually created them.
-Midnight's "essence" mixed with the "essence" of the original Mystra, who's own essence mixed in the same manner with Mystryl. So, there's all synonymous, in effect. That's how I always see it.
Was going to say something similar but since it was your idea first didn't want to get caught plagimarizing and make you start throwing your central american food at me. Hot sauce really stings
And if I am throwing it at anyone, it is you ,you CENSORED fruitbag!
-Not true. Qilue, for instance, was a Cleric of Eilistraee. And, if you look at some of the older Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, deities other than Mystra are listed as many of their deities.
And, while completely true, I find it CENSORED retarded.
If it wasn't stated outright, it was certainly implied, although I am unable to confirm this at the moment (this book is packed away right now).
Don’t tell me your “packed” comment involves your move in with Karsus.
-Midnight's "essence" mixed with the "essence" of the original Mystra, who's own essence mixed in the same manner with Mystryl. So, there's all synonymous, in effect. That's how I always see it.
Exact and poopy.
And, while completely true, I find it CENSORED retarded.
-Agreed.
Don’t tell me your “packed” comment involves your move in with Karsus.
-News to me.
Most people in Faerun are polytheists, and having read most of the novels (and much lore) involving the Seven, they don't appear to be exceptions to the rule. For example, Storm calls out to Tymora more than once in the novels (penned by Ed, too, creator of these characters).
By Polytheist, are you meaning they actually worship multiple gods, Pay lip service to multiple gods, or Worship one god paying lip service to others?
Based on the rules, to the best of my knowledge (from a 3.5 and before standpoint anyway) two of those three would be deemed false, and the last on the edge should their patron god perish.
-RW
The FRCS is misleading in its stress on the idea of patron deity -- it's a rules simplification, just as the 'one-step' rule is. Many, perhaps most folk don't have a conscious 'patron', but almost everyone has a favourite god, even if worshipped only slightly more than their second-favourite, and that's what one's afterlife is based on.
For example, Storm calls out to Tymora more than once in the novels (penned by Ed, too, creator of these characters).
And Mystra and Tymora are quite often invoked together.
i really seem to have missed which other god they worshiped ?
For instance, we know that Dove actively worships Mielikki, Storm Milil, and the mages Azuth.
And Karsus is quite correct about the 1e entries and the novels, and Ed has commented on this many times over the years. MOST good-aligned and neutral beings follow multiple gods. Only the truly tyrannical evil gods insist on you worshpping them alone.
For instance, if you worship Mystra, you automatically worship Azuth and Savras as well - in fact, there was a time in Elminster's life when Mystra was ignoring him, and he dealt with Azuth alone.
By Polytheist, are you meaning they actually worship multiple gods, Pay lip service to multiple gods, or Worship one god paying lip service to others?
-RW
As Faraer and MT said above, they worship more than one god--that's what polytheism means. Besides, "lip service" by definition implies insincerity (definitely not actual worship).
Generally, they have one Patron god, who is most in tune with their ideals. That doesn't prevent you from asking others for aid when the situation dictates a more suitable candidate, only that you actually worship one. Just because you ask Umberlee to not kill you, doesn't mean she'd take you into her Realm upon death.
This is shown true even in Ed's novels. They may ask Tymora to grant them luck, but this is not the same as a heart felt prayer.
I know what Polytheism is in the literal sense, I was just asking whether you were being so rigid as to imply they literally worship multiple gods. If that is the case, they'd be deemed false. Just like only paying lip service to multiple gods. It takes more than asking a divine being to aid you, to grant you access to their realm.
-RW
This is shown true even in Ed's novels. They may ask Tymora to grant them luck, but this is not the same as a heart felt prayer.
I disagree, but if you don't mind I'd prefer to leave it at that. I don't feel like debating this now.
The real Realms created by Ed are far-more relistic then the Game-version which has to stick to rules, meaning that PCs HAVE TO worship a single god. In the RW, thats just ludicrous - try telling that to all the folks that still folow Hinduism in the world.
Except in the real world you don't gain power from worship, or go anywhere when you die. ;)
For instance, if you worship Mystra, you automatically worship Azuth and Savras as well - in fact, there was a time in Elminster's life when Mystra was ignoring him, and he dealt with Azuth alone.
You support them, perhaps offer them up thanks, but you don't legitimately worship them. You may have them as secondary patrons in the sense that they MAY take you in as a devout, should Mystra die. However Mystra and Azuth, are a lot different than Mystra and Bane.
-RW
I disagree, but if you don't mind I'd prefer to leave it at that. I don't feel like debating this now.
That's ok, different interpretation of the content.
-RW
As Faraer and MT said above, they worship more than one god--that's what polytheism means. Besides, "lip service" by definition implies insincerity (definitely not actual worship).
My dear, you can clear this up easily: Is it worship or lip service?
How do you account for Quilue? She is a chosen of both Mystra and Elistraee.
Tell me about it. As stated, CENSORED retarded.
How do you account for Quilue? She is a chosen of both Mystra and Elistraee.
I'm not arguing that it CAN'T be done, only that in doing so you'd be deemed false should both Patrons die, or neither take her.
In the event of her actual death (not her soul being simply consumed) I'm not sure which goddess would take her. That said, she is a special situation. Not everybody gets to be the daughter of a goddess, a chosen of both, and gifted in sword and spell.
She is an anomoly, not the norm. For the regular average joe, they have nothing to offer more than one god, and can only hope their life is spent doing enough to grant access to their domain.
-RW
I'm not arguing that it CAN'T be done, only that in doing so you'd be deemed false should both Patrons die, or neither take her.
Neither? No, no, no.
One or the other would. And my bet is that it wouldn't be Mystra.
Ed has never, to the best of my knowledge anyway, said they worship multiple gods.
He's said that everyone does, and specified a couple that the Sisters do in addition to Mystra in the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms, and probably other sources. He'd readily, though redundantly, confirm that they worship multiple gods if asked.
As far as I know, he has simply said the following. They pay lip service insofar that they ask Tymora for luck, Chauntea for a good crop, or Umberlee for safe passage on the sea. This doesn't constitute worship, it is simply good practise for not angering the divine.
No, he's directly specified that that is a form of worship (though in the case of opposed gods, which doesn't apply to the Tymora case, invoking them is appeasement worship -- a very important form which provides much of the divine strength of the evil, antisocial gods). And it isn't lip service: lip service means making unfelt forms of religious observation through social obligation.
If that is the case, they'd be deemed false.
Again, they're breaking no commitment, because that kind of exclusive devotion isn't how Faerûnian worship works.
One of the previous times this cropped up here, Ed was asked to comment on this:
a person on the Wizards.com boards says they're arguing with people who think Realms priests are monolaters who give absolutely no worship, reverence or praise to any but 'their' god
He replied,
Given the way priests have been portrayed in much published Realms fiction (many fanatics, or single-minded clerics striving to survive and accomplish things in moments of crisis, even divine crises) that’s an understandable view of Realms clergy to reach.
Understandable, but wrong. . . .
For the regular average joe, they have nothing to offer more than one god, and can only hope their life is spent doing enough to grant access to their domain.
That's the opposite of the case, and Ed has gone out of his way several times to refute that misunderstanding. For instance, see page 50 of Power of Faerûn, which covers much of this succinctly and straightforwardly.
Neither? No, no, no.
One or the other would. And my bet is that it wouldn't be Mystra.
Probably, but I said if both died, as they since have.
But again, they are both good aligned, and she has served them both. I'm talking the average person though, not a god born chosen.:P
-RW
He's said that everyone does, specified a couple that the Sisters do in addition to Mystra in the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms, and probably other sources. He'd readily, though redundantly, confirm that they worship multiple gods if asked.
He has said that many people will give prayers to multiple gods, in the manner that I have stated. but I've not read anywhere that suggests they worship multiple gods, with equal fealty as their Patron. Again with the Umberlee example. I man could work on a farm his entire life, but his one and only trip to the sea, he may well wisper a prayer or too so as not to die. That doesn't constitute worship, so much as prudence, in a world where the gods are an all to real threat.
If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to read a refuting passage in any book, or from Ed on Candlekeep, if you quote the page, or provide the link. But as I said, I've not yet seen any.
No, he's directly specified that that is a form of worship (though in the case of opposed gods, which doesn't apply to the Tymora case, invoking them is appeasement worship). And it isn't lip service: lip service means making unfelt forms of religious observation through social obligation.Again, they're breaking no commitment, because that kind of exclusive devotion isn't how Faerûnian worship works.
Lip servive means offering up a prayer to something or someone out of necessity over piousness. You may be heartfelt in your wish for good crops, or not dying, but that doesn't mean you give them more than a passing thought in average day to day life, or when you die, wish to serve or exist in their world.
Your Patron is the god most aligned with your line of thinking. The rest are just there when you need them.
This said, in the sense of "worship", in that they recieve power from prayer, yes it is. I'm not refuting the utterance of a gods name being a prayer, or granting them power. Saying "Jesus Christ" is technically a prayer, even though it takes the lords name in vain. Just like saying "God Damn you". That doesn't mean I worship, it just means that I either don't care, or want the most likely candidate to do you harm.
So it really depends in what manner you are taking worship. I don't consider them worshippers, but their prayers grant the god in question power. So if you definition of a worshipper is a person granting said god the ability to exist, then yes, they worship multiple gods.
One of the previous times this cropped up here, Ed was asked to comment on this:He replied, That's the opposite of the case, and Ed has gone out of his way several times to refute that misunderstanding. For instance, see page 50 of Power of Faerûn, which covers much of this succinctly and straightforwardly.
I'll come back to this portion, as I have to run out. If anything is unclear, or out of place, excuse it please, as I won't be proofing this.
-RW
In Faiths & Avatars:
All of these religions involve the worship of multiple powers within a pantheon, although not necessarily multiple pantheons. This is the normal state of affairs in the Realms.
Thus, in abstract it is really ridiculous to think of one deity of the Realms becoming angry at a worshiper just for worshiping another deity. What matters to a particular Realms power is not that a follower worships someone else—most everyone in the Realms worships several someone elses—but rather which other powers are venerated and which are appeased, and how serious a person’s offerings and worship are to other deities. Some pantheons even do not care if their worshipers also venerate deities from other pantheons . . .
Most folk have a handful of powers that they regularly venerate, only appeasing an unpleasant power when they are entering or engaged in a situation where that deity holds sway. Most people in the Realms also eventually settle on a sort of patron deity who they are most comfortable venerating and who they hold in the greatest reverence.
(Comparing this to the FRCS text, one sees how the latter is a simplified, de-nuanced, artificially formalized version for rules purposes.)
From Ed directly (these paragraphs are from separate posts):
beings in Faerun worship many gods: as a rule, only zealots and clergy venerate just one deity. In other words, a farmer will mainly reverence Chauntea, but also pray to appease Talos (to keep crop-damaging storms away or at least few and light), Malar (to keep beasts from attacking him or his folk in the fields, and to send vermin elsewhere), and so on.
[this is the text taken up by Power of Faerûn]
I wanted lots of gods (one aspect of the Realms that's thus far been neglected is the extent to which Jonthun the baker next door worships Chauntea for a good harvest, Tymora for good luck in the baking, Talos for good weather so the grain crops won't be ruined, and so on, all in the same day)
As I've said before, it's quite incorrect to view most Realms NPCs (who aren't priests or paladins or something of the sort) as having a single deity: everybody makes appeasement prayers to all sorts of deities, tending to worship a single one only if their situation dictates it (farmers praying mainly to Chauntea and appeasing mainly Talos, for example).
please don't lose sight of the fact, scribes, that in the Realms (aside from priests and the most dedicated of lay worshippers), no one dedicates themselves to one god. Everybody worships a variety of deities (if only in appeasement). They may recognize a patron deity or dominant god, yes, but they AREN'T monotheistic.
It's not that every last goblin or fishwife or elf-child goes through every day thinking they talk to the gods and the gods listen and personally reply; it's that all of those beings cowers at the thought of ever personally coming to the personal attention of any deity, but knows all of the deities are at work around them, all the time, and are immensely powerful, and are best heeded (live life the way the priests say the god wants - - and keep a close eye on the tongues of those priests, who many after all from time to time twist things as we all do, eh? - - and we'll be in good standing with the gods, and they'll do right by us). Life in the Realms is a series of practical choices, forced by situations ("Must eat, so must get food"), and after that a series of moral choices (Chauntea would want me not to chase the raiding goblins across the newly-sewn field, but Helm and Torm and Tempus would all want me to get after them to make sure they don't get away, so... whose creed do I cleave to first?").
In the Realms as in our real world, there are many folk who ignore the gods (and certainly priesthoods and overt worship; aren't the nightly parade of dream-visions, and what I say and do in my dreams in response, enough?) as much as possible and just try to get on with their lives. There are also "true believers" who turn to the veneration of one primary or patron god above all. Most folk are somewhere in the middle, praying when it's prudent (and on special holy days or occasions such as weddings, funerals, and births) and in moments alone when they seek guidance or reassurance or a lifting of their spirits; the rest of the time, they (in the words of Rusgul the Smith) "let the gods see to the doings of the gods, while Rusgul sees to the livelihood and forge-work of Rusgul!"
the Realms is polytheistic, not monotheistic: few characters in the Realms (except zealots and clerics) worship just one god; most folks worship many, and believe in all (that their race recognizes, at least). So characters choose which religious creed overrides which other religious creed, for them, in any given situation, and those choices are limited only by the game concept of alignment (and a watchful DM enforcing it), and by the players' own views of the evolving character of the PC they're playing.
everyone understands that the Gods Hear All. And conduct themselves accordingly (usually not venerating one god above all others, but primarily worshipping one god due to their professions, or the usual situation or season).
In general, those few Faerûnians who closely and devoutly venerate one god above all others follow the views of that deity and the priesthood of that deity; most other folk in the Realms pick up “clever sayings” that they ‘can relate to’ from everywhere (sages, bards, orators, and various faiths), concocting their own personal mixture to serve as a world-view.
Also this from The Hooded One:
Underscoring once again that the Realms is polytheistic, not monotheistic; most intelligent Faerûnian beings don't worship just one god, and outside of professional clergy and zealots, only a minority of them even have "patron deities" (primary gods they worship before or above all others).
You can clearly see that
-- people worship many gods
-- offering prayers is worship -- they're discussed interchangeably -- of either reverential or appeasement sort
-- worshipping one god qualitatively above all others isn't the norm; RW's term 'fealty' doesn't apply to most folk, and they just aren't as 'pious' (or concerned with serving in the afterlife*) as he suggests above
-- the gods people worship at particular times through their lives depend on the situation they're in and their personal character
-- no hard distinction is made between worship of one's favourite god and of others
(except in the case of priests, and even then, as Prayers from the Faithful tells us, 'there are many who serve more than one divine name').
So it really depends in what manner you are taking worship.
Yes, in part, and in that sense I'm just conveying how it's taken in Realmslore. But apart from that, your focus on the patron idea, loyalty to one god in particular distinct from others, a semi-monotheistic devotion, is characteristic of priests but not of most ordinary folk in Faerûn.
* Taken out of context, the FRCS afterlife guidelines do suggest that people would be highly concerned in their lives about not missing out on a good afterlife, in a rather Roman Catholic way, as quite a few messageboard posters have supposed. But Realmslore shows us that this isn't how people think or act, in part because the divine mechanics aren't clearly known to mortals -- Faerûnians are mostly humanistic and, from a Judeo-Christian standpoint, secular. This isn't an atypical misunderstanding caused by the FRCS, whose 'Life in Faerûn' chapter suggests many things that are either in error or special cases misrepresented as general ones. In turn, it's not a rare thing in other books, where things like clarifying scenes and qualifying limits of spells have often been cut for space.
Probably, but I said if both died, as they since have.
But again, they are both good aligned, and she has served them both. I'm talking the average person though, not a god born chosen.:P
-RW
Then clarify, you Red Widget!!
You just screwed up 123,987 FR foreigners with that comment!!
How the hell are their children going to turn out because of it?!!
While I agree this counts as worship in the basic sense, I still see it as lip service, as they do it out of necessity, not devotion. They only ask for luck from Tymora when they need it. They only ask for good crops when they're going. They only ask Umberlee to bugger off at sea. The only ask Tempus for aid in battle. They never call upon any of these powers when it doesn't make sense too.
They DO however often have a shrine to the one who makes the most sense to them. They'll pray to them in the evenings (or other suitable time for prayer) and ask them specifically for the things they want. In a poytheistic world, this is a very mono practise. That is not calling them monotheistic, just the practise is similar in that sense.
I was never denying that they pray to many, nor saying they could only have one god to look to for protection. Simply refuting the claim of multiple worship.
When I think of worshipping someone, I see that you follow them because you believe in what they represent, they hold your ideals and in some way stand to represent what you wish to be, or are happy to serve.
All this said, based on what the rules of 3.x imply, if you don't worship one god above the others, and show some manner of devotion to their ideals (Which shouldn't be terribly hard if they pick one of like mind) you will, if not pitied and taken in by that one, become faithless or possibly false. If you pretend to worship someone but really worship no one, you are false.
-RW
What you call 'lip service' is perfectly good worship from the deities' 'point of view', too. Entry into a divine realm requires no more than, as you say, 'some manner of devotion'. There are lots of self-interested merchants and disrespectful street thugs in Faerûn, and they don't all get sent to the Wall. Faithless are rare: they're atheists (as the FRCS says, those who firmly denied any faith or gave lip service but didn't really believe) in a world filled with plain signs of the gods. A smidgen of genuine reverence and you're in. One more quote:
[T]he average Faerunian lives long enough to worship (or serve through their actions) one deity above all others (though in many cases just which deity “tops their points list” may not be clear to a dying mortal or anyone who knows them). If a mortal dies with a mission or task for a particular deity unfinished, and it’s a matter they felt strongly about in life, they may well be “sent back” (reborn as another mortal) to try to complete that task by the deity they were trying to serve. Otherwise, they DO end up serving the deity most appropriate to their alignment and character in the afterlife. Only those who repudiate the gods (or who as a result of their actions are renounced by their gods), despoil altars and frustrate clerical aims (of any deity, not just “foe” deities), or never pray or engage in any form of deliberate worship will qualify as either faithless or false.
Only a few deities (Cyric might be one) are insane enough not to recognize and accept the polytheistic “appease this deity and that as life situations and strivings demand” model, and demand that their faithful worship them and only them. For everyone else, it’s a matter of embracing (or drifting into) primary worship of one deity above -- even if only slightly above -- all others.
(Apologies, RW, for how I wrote my 2nd post on the first page -- I'd have grokked the sense you were using 'worship' in if I'd read more slowly.)