Does the church of Waukeen take in the most donations?
Was Mystras church strongest in Halrua?
Are there theocracies left in postspellplague Faerun?
How would you go about determing these faiths capacity
to annihlate one another?
In Thethyr, the Royalty is largely backed by the church of Siamorphe, who's organisation is thoroughly incorporated in the rituals of rulership and the succession of the crown. This means the clergies High Priests words are regarded highly by the Crown and the public. This is an example of how a church can become powerful by being in a position to control the ones in power.
I believe it was Ordulin a city in the Western Hearthlands, where a pretty powerful Order of Paladins of Torm calls the shots. Their power stems more from the laws they can set for their region, and their ability to enforce it through actual martial might. Its populace is largely kept in line by frequent display of military resources combined by divine favors for the weak.
The church of Waukeen has numerous ways to generate capital and so has a great deal of economic power. Their church is usually welcomed in most of Fearuns trade ports. They have reliable banking systems aswell, further interweaving the church of Waukeens business with public affairs and matters of state by their ability to grant lones.
Most other religions are too loosely organised to form grand theocracies. Mystra's church wasn't that powerhungry, especially after Midnights ascension. Her temples function more as places of learning and mystery, not as magic shops or seats of political power. In Halruua her temples were situated in citysquares that shared temples to other gods such as Savras and Azuth, who both were held in very high regard by the ruling Magocracy. This was before Shar started to hold an ever increasing sway over some of those ruling wizard clans, and temples to her started being build by several cities within Halruua's borders.
Shar managed to become involved in Sembia's state affairs through the actions of her favored agents, the Sahdovar and her faithfull exarch of another mutiversal world Shar had destroyed earlier (see the Cycle of Night novels by Kemp for how this happened).
A religious war being fought could be made possible if multiple churches would become involved or invested in a conflict. A certain heresy that confounds a group of churches so much they join forces in stamping out its existance could be the cause, or a discovery of an artifact thats coveted for its miracles or destructive power.
If the non-human deities qualify too, I would say Lloth is quite powerful. Now most of her rivals are dead, and the drow encompass most of the Underdark.
And to stay on topic. Waukeen was venerated especially widely in Amn, and in many merchant cities, like... hmmm... Neverwinter or Waterdeep. Not sure if that is the case after Spellplague, though. Siamorphe, despite her ties with royalty and nobility in some countries, is a rather minor religion. Chauntea is widely known and revered. As is probably Oghma.
Hmm. Oh, and Mystra's is definitely not a strong church, not after everything that happened with the Spellplague and her kiling. Cyric is out of the equation too.
we all know Helm is the most powerful diety
I aprouch this mostly from a view that a typical day will involve worship of several spheres or portfolios of the fearunian dieties, in name or without, this will generate divine energy for both the god and subsequently its priesthood aswell.
In terms of holding power over the way a commoner views life I think the Sunites have considerable more expertise with swaying opinions than other churches. So their actual political and social influence is very strong.
Furthermore its good to consider the amount of divine power a typical city of village generates for Sune by its inhabitants silently being awed by viewing beautiful things in mundane daylife. Its a bit of a Nietzchian view, that most of human thought and action is driven by lust.
With this is mind, fear or despair both are very strong emotions, so very strong contenders for most influential fearunian churches are both the church of Bane and Shar. Bane has the added benefit of having a very military minded church so their dogma of fear can be easily put to brutal use. Shar has such an insidious and embedded church that she's able to influence large groups without anyone noticing.
But really to answer the orginal OP's question Id say that all the greater god's churches are roughly equal in power and influence, after all theres a reason theyer greater gods.
I disagree. Kelemvors portfolio is not a popular one, who would venerate a death-god while living in the prime of their lives? Most fearunians have a comparably comfortble life, and death is a thing to think about when you're elder.
Remembering that nearly all Faerunian cultures are polytheist, and that it's unusual for most people to have a solitary patron, anyone who has lost a relative (recently or otherwise) could attend services for the death god. Making an offering at a temple to Kelemvor for a recently dead spouse, parent, sibling, child, etc., could be quite common. It's worship that counts for power in a polytheist system, and most people in Faerun worship multiple deities. Even a high priest of Sune, for example, could attend a service in a temple to Kelemvor, make a significant offering in memory of a dead relative, and not "insult" Sune in the slightest. Gotta get away from monotheistic thinking when dealing with polytheism.
My argument is that a diety of death has a strong portfolio and generates large amounts of lay worship, but a death portfolio isn't a popular one, in a sense that it wont have large amounts of people taking Kelemvor as their sole patron.
Er, I'm more thinking that you're incorrect.
Now a priest perhaps might raise an eyebrow or two depending on how opposed things are between two gods, but Joe Average in the Realms doesn't especially have a go-to god. He'll pray to Chauntea about his crops, Kelemvor when someone dies, if he travels by sea he'll make offering to Umberlee, etc. He might have one particular god he favors more or less, but in general he'll venerate whichever one is applicable at the time - That's the point of pantheism. You follow the pantheon as a whole and while you might have a favourite you consider your patron you don't necessarily revere any one god more or less than any other.
Indeed, the whole 'must have a deity' nonsense is rather counter to all sensible considerations of pantheism.
It is fairly difficult for most people to comprehend, though, since most people in English-speaking countries are raised in a highly monotheistic culture and the mere concept of praying to one god for one thing and another god for another thing is foreign.
Kind of like how bisexuality in the Realms is supposed to be much more prevalent, but very few people actually run or play or even write it that way because the culture most of us live in is so homophobic.
So I am sure most folk DO have a patron (or favorite) deity - though not all pay it much thought or spend much effort on its behalf.
Without the while 'Faithless' rules, it would make more sense for there to be peopel who don't have patron deities. But due to what happens 'hereafter', I think most people will try to seek a patron.
And on Topic:I agree with Nai and Suin. Its true most people in the Realms are polytheists, unless they become a priest or something. Theyd offer prayers up to various gods throughout the day depending on situation, but at the same time many people would also choose a sort of patron deity like some people in our world may choose a patron saint. You still prayto other gods but there could be one you hold above all others. So yeah I think youre both right. Just my 2 Sembian Steelpences.
(No, really, the whole wall of the faithless thing bugs the ever-living hell out of me. But I'll refrain from really getting started on the subject. Although 4E gets special mention for managing to actually make things *worse* by taking that crap from Core with the 'I dunno who cares' garbage where now even the devout don't even necessarily get to go to 'heaven'. I guess Ao changed his mind again because really if a lifetime of worshiping your One True God you inexplicably need to have STILL doesn't get you an actual afterlife, why the hells does anyone even bother?)When did the Wall of the Faithless get added to the Realms?
Is it Greenwood or a TSR Special?
When did the Wall of the Faithless get added to the Realms?
Is it Greenwood or a TSR Special?
I'm not entirely sure, the first mention of I can think of it is in the novel Prince of Lies.
That would mean all the average Faerun folk are Faithless... without a patron, no deity will collect them from the Fugue plane.
So I am sure most folk DO have a patron (or favorite) deity - though not all pay it much thought or spend much effort on its behalf.
Without the while 'Faithless' rules, it would make more sense for there to be peopel who don't have patron deities. But due to what happens 'hereafter', I think most people will try to seek a patron.
Ed Greenwood has specifically said that most common people in the Realms do not have a "patron" deity because they're actually, genuinely, truly polytheist. This whole thing about the wall of the faithless is bizarre and quite ridicuous, and really just a monotheistic cultural insertion, considering that: a) Realms cultures are truly polytheistic societies, and b) when you have proof of the existence of deities how could anyone with an INT above 3 possibly reject their existence. It was a really stupid addition by designers back in 2E who had no idea what polytheism actually means for people, and it goes against the basic conceptual foundation of the Realms. There are stupid rules that are printed for every edition, and when they make zero sense it's important to ditch them.
Look up Ed Greenwood's descriptions of common worship in the Realms over at Candlekeep if you don't believe me.
The wall of faithless is actually a device that makes basic concepts of a pantheon such as the traffic of souls work in a bureaucratic like conduct, which fits the realms well. IMO it has more in common with the areas in Hades underworld, like the Lethe pools in Acheron where dead commoners souls memories can be erased to become a clean slate.
The polytheistic society of Fearun doesn't stop the churches and religious organisations from splintering into various camps solely devoted to single gods. These groups subsequently would have interest in gathering the most attention to them and their dieties message. So the constant pull for favor of the common public would lead these groups to proselytizing en plain public. Here a myth of a faithless punishment could easily catch on.
Its likewise essential that false prophets are looked for and hunted down, especially when in a society where word of mouth is one of the few ways to spread faith. By including the Wall of the Faithless myth into your campaign the divine agents have an easier time holding wild heresies in check.
So a society with an real afterlife actually benefits from having a device such as the Wall. It being a horrible, unpalpable fate doesn't make it any less viable in a setting such as FR.
I'm not entirely sure, the first mention of I can think of it is in the novel Prince of Lies.
In the novel Waterdeep, actually. Chapter 14.
Gomez
The realms has been out of Ed hands for the better part of 20 years now, and is better more detailed place thanks to it. People such as Schend, Boyd and even Baker have added to the rich tapestry over the years and I don't handwave their thoughts on the place we all love to know more about...
It's actually more the case that all of those editors used the massive collection of Greenwood's notes on the Realms, and that Ed has been intimately involved with the Realms. Of the creations that have been shoehorned into the Realms, or created wholecloth with minimal use of Ed's notes, those are some of the areas that people have complained the most about.
But you can do whatever you want in your own Realms, that's the benefit of them. It's okay to use the wall of the faithless, as it's canon... but it's one of the dumbest things that have ever been put into the Realms.
Lliira and Sune are among the most wealthy, as well as Oghma and Deneir's churches. Certainly, along with Waukeen, they're probably among the wealthiest.
With Lliira, you have a very large number of donations being made to the faith that were the only people to bring joy to otherwise dreary lives, making them one of the largest landowners in Faerun. They're more than capable of footing the party's bill themselves, thanks.
With Sune you have an almost literally priceless collection of artwork and considerable numbers of prime real estate under their control. While its not necessarily liquid assets, they are assets nonetheless. Also consider the sale of cosmetics and the like, and just how much of the disposable income of those wealthy merchants and their spouses the church is pulling in because of them.
With Oghma and Deneir... not that much liquid wealth, but just in the sheer value of their libraries and its lore, they're both probably in the top 5 in terms of assets they could bring to bear, not that they ever would. Also consider the steep fees they collect from allowing access into those libraries, which of course is usually put towards acquiring even more books, but still, there's still a considerable amount of wealth that both churches can bring to bear if they were of a mind to.
This stuff is mostly out of Faiths and Avatars/Faiths and Pantheons, though neither of those books goes into quite as much detail as I'd like.
People are treating this without objectivity. Half of the posts look like third party spam advertisements.
And what exactly are you bringing to the conversation!?
I still say that the churches of the greater gods are probably all roughly equal in terms of wealth and influence, then gods, and then the Exarchs, assuming that they even have churches or temples or whatever. I dont think theres a clear cut winner like ok diety x is the most powerful and influential.
Another thing to consider, is that each individual church of a particular deity might have more or less influence, wealth, etc., than other temples of the same god, depending on location and how that god is viewed in a particular area, among other factors.
Others are way more restrict, in a sociological point of view. Lolth, moradin and corellon are mostly racial gods, with no futher spread to anyone who isn't interested in drow, dwarf and fey stuff. Ghaunadaur and Shar are pretty similar at the nihilistic sense, wich is more a philosofical choice than an aspect of everyday life - trough they have some diferent conduits (far realm and shadow) that keep the borders somehow clear.
Cyric and Grummsh, IMHO, are gods who overlap several times in their portifolios. Chaotic destruction versus brutish destruction? Since grummsh is less race-oriented than before, cyric has lost some of his identity as I can see.
Bane and asmodeus, simillarly, can delve in some trouble... Sin and powerlust are pretty much close. Such as Shar/Ghaunadar, Chauntea/Silvanus, and Cyric/Grummsh; all make some overlapping portifolios whose singularity lies in theme only (brutish against mad destruction, shadowish against lovecraftish nihilism, human-oriented against animal-oriented nature, greek corruption against hobbesian power).
Well, I really think all greater gods are somehow equal, but I trust that in crucial moments the gods with more singular spheres are going to make their points more valid. And that's all gods do: they make their points. I can see no Grummsh beating Tempus in any way.
wealth of the religions: pre-Spellplague, based upon demographics of the worshippers and tenets of the religion, I would argue either Lathander or Sune. Waukeen suffered for not have the numbers of worshippers and relatively isolated. The temples of Lathander and Sune are typically the most lavish, and they were popular. However, after the change of Lathander to the Amaunator, I am thinking he lost a lot of the noble wealthy as being too dry and boring (and rigid) for their taste. So now, I think a good case could be made for Sune.
Keith
Except they've explicitly made the formerly racial deities general now. Corellon is a lot more than just 'god of the elves' and fills a rather unique niche. He's also one of the very few remaining gods with a strong tie to magic. Along with music, the arts, crafts, and warfare as it relates to protection, there's quite a bit there that can appeal to followers of other races. So anyone can freely worship Corellon now. (Technically, they always could, but it's not going to raise anyone's eyebrows now.) Same with Moradin. Yondalla allegedly was a human goddess all along.
Corellon and Moradin survive, and survive as Greater Gods, because of two things: Their associated races are still going strong, the Elves if anything are on the rise, for example; and their portfolios are fairly unique as a whole and also very general things. Sure, there are other gods of magic, other gods of music, other gods of war, but none have quite the same take on those things that Corellon does and none have all of them. If those things all float your boat... You're pretty damn likely to go worship Corellon, aren't you? You're probably going to pray to him at least once, even if just in passing. Works for him.