However, it seems to many forumites that they indeed are incredibly important, and that a favorite god missing is enough to leave the game for good. What makes the gods so important? Isn't the cultures and the nations more important?
I'm just looking for comprehension. I'm not intentionally looking for a fight.
However, it seems to many forumites that they indeed are incredibly important, and that a favorite god missing is enough to leave the game for good. What makes the gods so important? Isn't the cultures and the nations more important?
As far as I'm concerned? To be honest, no.
One of the interesting things about the Forgotten Realms is that its fundamentally a political game. The actual setting is a fairly typical Fantasy world in many respects with a lot of the lands inbetween the major spots not being all that different from your stereotypical Swords and Sorcery Petty Kingdoms. This isn't bad, I play the Realms because it's the Tolkien-Moorcock-Howard world.
However, the Gods are pretty much the impetuous for almost all of my plots. Bane wants his followers to sacrifice a thousand innocent people so he can create an avatar to ravage the city of Waterdeep. Finder Wyvernspur commands the player characters to go find the Lyre of Wyvernspur so his followers can outnumber 10 guys. Cyric is secretly behind Sarevok's plot to become Bhaal.
Fundamentally, with the exception of Ssass Tam, The Malaugyrm (sp), Manhsoon, and Fzoul (I don't count the Shades as worthy enough for this list); the gods are behind every bit of nastiness you'll find in the Realms. The Realms has a host of Archvillains and their names are Bane, Shar, Cyric, Velsharoon, Talos, and Mask.
Unlike other campaign settings, player characters are surprised but not necessarilly awed when Lathander walks up and says hey. Sort of like Dragonlance, except they don't even bother with the Fizban disguise.
With that kind of dynamic, it shaped everything down to daily life for people of the Realms. With the amount of deities in the Realms, there were always plots and intrigues as followers always vied to achieve their gods' ends.
By limiting the amount of deities, they have limited character choices, IMO.
I do admit however that I've never cared for a lot of the divine soap operas which seem to infect the Realms. I like my gods to be a little more distant and dignified. If I want divine drama, I'll read the Iliad, thanks. ;)
Thankfully, we have this guy to replace Velsharoon.
I do admit however that I've never cared for a lot of the divine soap operas which seem to infect the Realms. I like my gods to be a little more distant and dignified. If I want divine drama, I'll read the Iliad, thanks.
Actually, one of my players was utterly appalled during a conversation about the realms.
Player: The gods are so undignified, you play them like the Greek gods!
Me: Uh, yeah, exactly.
Player: Then why would people worship them?
Me: Why did the Greeks?
Player: Ugh.
Me: You're just upset that I made Kelemvor like Death from Discworld.
Removing some of the Gods affects those cultures and nations, which is the thing that annoys me the most.
Me: You're just upset that I made Kelemvor like Death from Discworld.
Now Discworld's Death is cool! There's no reason to protest that! :P
Player character 2: I agree.
Kelemvor: EXCUSE ME.
Player character: Or we could find a new target.
Player character 2: Good idea.
Kelemvor: I'M NOT WORKING. I JUST WANTED A PINT.
Now Discworld's Death is cool! There's no reason to protest that! :P
Especialy considering that would be a HUGE improvement on the current one.
Basicly, it's like your average egocistical, power hungry, sociopathic lords/kings/Emporors.... except they have a lot of power that depends on the amount of buttk... worshipers they have. That naturaly puts them on a permanant recruiting drive and in backstabby politics mode. Naturaly, that has quite an impact on the physical world.
Kelemvor: I'M NOT WORKING. I JUST WANTED A PINT.
Kelemvor: BUT I COULD MURDER A CURRY.
Especialy considering that would be a HUGE improvement on the current one.
Basicly, it's like your average egocistical, power hungry, sociopathic lords/kings/Emporors.... except they have a lot of power that depends on the amount of buttk... worshipers they have. That naturaly puts them on a permanant recruiting drive and in backstabby politics mode. Naturaly, that has quite an impact on the physical world.
My husband actually likes Kelemvor; I personally know very little about him or a lot of the gods since the Time of Troubles.
I just hate having my characters seeming to behave better than the gods they worship or should be using an example. I can accept that in Small Gods or The Last Barbarian but Forgotten Realms just aren't written as well or as funnily, dammit! :P
My husband actually likes Kelemvor; I personally know very little about him or a lot of the gods since the Time of Troubles.
I just hate having my characters seeming to behave better than the gods they worship or should be using an example. I can accept that in Small Gods or The Last Barbarian but Forgotten Realms just aren't written as well or as funnily, dammit! :P
I liked Kelemvor until he went for the "Lets put back the wall of faithless cos the other gods want me too".
Lets say I never subscribed to the "gods, sages and other powerful beings can do stuff that would be considered reprehensible by anyone else" theory .http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OmniscientMoralityLicense
So I'm not a huge fan of the FR gods who behave like jerks most of the time, expect mortals to worship them and seem to enjoy total diplomatic immunity (except from each other). I'm a Shin Megami Tensei player, ie I will kill any being that gives me a good reason to, mortal, demon, or god. (leveling pending of course.)
Actually, the death of so many is cause for celebration to me. I'll soon take care of the rest.
I just hate having my characters seeming to behave better than the gods they worship or should be using an example. I can accept that in Small Gods or The Last Barbarian but Forgotten Realms just aren't written as well or as funnily, dammit! :P
We actually had a joke about that in game. Ironically, involving Kelemvor (who is our patron god with Selune)
Player: I have difficulty accepting the gods can be so....normal.
Kelemvor: IT IS NOT WE WHO ARE NORMAL. IT IS YOU WHO IS ABNORMAL.
Player: What?
Kelemvor: YOU SHRUG OFF ARROWS, SLAY ARMIES AND MONSTERS, AND WORK GODLIKE SPELLS WITH GREAT ARTIFACTS IN YOUR HANDS.
Player 2: But...
Kelemvor: IT'S CALLED BEING A HERO. BY COMPARISON, BEING IN CHARGE OF A PART OF THE UNIVERSE'S BUREAUCRACY IS CHILD'S PLAY.
They are only important to your game if you want them to be. Use them like you use anything else... as much as wanted/needed to make the game fun.
Uh, duh.
But it makes for a short discussion if that's the answer to everything.
:P
Congratulations though on being able to play Kelemvor (and I take it the other gods) the way you do. It does sound fascinating - and funny.
-They are deeply ingrained into the fabric of the setting.
The positions are important, not the specific personal gods in most cases... Subtile but key difference.
The positions are important, not the specific personal gods in most cases... Subtile but key difference.
-Which changes absolutely nothing that I just said.
They are only important to your game if you want them to be. Use them like you use anything else... as much as wanted/needed to make the game fun.
This is the answer that applied to all the complainers that caused the Realms to be changed, not to the loyal customers that don't like what was done to appease the complainers.
-Which changes absolutely nothing that I just said.
Subtile but definitive difference. The gods themselves are not very important, just the job. Like changing gears... Hum, does that means AO is a Deist metaphysic stuff?
Corlain, there is constructive critics, not all are uther complains again.
Subtile but definitive difference. The gods themselves are not very important, just the job. Like changing gears...
-Which changes absolutely nothing that I said.
Subtile but definitive difference. The gods themselves are not very important, just the job. Like changing gears... Hum, does that means AO is a Deist metaphysic stuff?
I disagree actually. The jobs are unimportant but the NPC is.
Bane, God of War or God of Tyranny, it doesn't matter so long as he's an Evil Overlord.
I disagree actually. The jobs are unimportant but the NPC is.
Bane, God of War or God of Tyranny, it doesn't matter so long as he's an Evil Overlord.
You actualy went along my point.
It's not Bane that matter; it's the God of Tyrany and stuff. If Bane dies, it's an hole that will call to be filed in any way possible - be it a folios merger or a new god taking the place. Or something.
(In theory, things don't always work as planed or said.)
This is the answer that applied to all the complainers that caused the Realms to be changed, not to the loyal customers that don't like what was done to appease the complainers.
ehh, it applies to WotC wanting to have a money making product. I am a fan, I like the new stuff, I like the old stuff. I also understand the 'perceived' need for change. Loyal or not, it was decided FR needed 'fixed'.
It doesn't change the fact that what I said is the truth. A simple truth, to be sure, but one that people tend to overlook all the time.
You actualy went along my point.
It's not Bane that matter; it's the God of Tyrany and stuff. If Bane dies, it's an hole that will call to be filed in any way possible - be it a folios merger or a new god taking the place. Or something.
(In theory, things don't always work as planed or said.)
No, I totally disagree.
If Bane is gone and replaced by Cyric, people want Bane back because Cyric sucked as the God of Tyranny. Likewise, they actually just placed Xvim in Bane's place as Bane in all but name, but people STILL wanted Bane. The personalities of the gods are very important to their appeal.
It's bizarre but true.
It's why people like Ryu over Ken.
Corlain, there is constructive critics, not all are uther complains again.
According to WoTC, all of these changes were made due to complaints of complexity or powerful NPC's.
I am tired of everyone telling us that are unhappy with the new Realms to ignore what we don't like. WoTC should have told that to the complainers, since it is what I did when they put out new lore that I didn't like. I either didn't use it or subtly changed it. It just shows how unnecessary these overhauls were.
Better than 90% of the complaints were due to poor DMing or from optimizers. That is not a problem with a setting, that is a problem with people, like religion and politics. Any system would work if people weren't involved.
Sorry if I sound bitter, but I am. Just like always, new and improved means it sucks.
No, I totally disagree.
If Bane is gone and replaced by Cyric, people want Bane back because Cyric sucked as the God of Tyranny. Likewise, they actually just placed Xvim in Bane's place as Bane in all but name, but people STILL wanted Bane. The personalities of the gods are very important to their appeal.
It's bizarre but true.
It's why people like Ryu over Ken.
The gods are however more than personality - they *are* what they represent. Talos *is* storms. He is the destructive side of nature (and men).
Few remained with the dead Bane or wished him back, from what I remember. They eitheir went to the new flavour of evil, or went for the son and basicaly went for the position of bane.
At the end, cosmicaly and metaphysicaly, it's that what matters.
Corlain, it swings both ways - old or new stuff, and it is also highly subjective. The changes may have been very well needed (fans =/= blind or unable to critic - which why there is fans that do like what they see) and good (why not?).
It's taste and opinion much, yeah.
Few remained with the dead Bane or wished him back, from what I remember. They eitheir went to the new flavour of evil, or went for the son and basicaly went for the position of bane.
I'm referring to out of universe, fans.
According to WoTC, all of these changes were made due to complaints of complexity or powerful NPC's.
I am tired of everyone telling us that are unhappy with the new Realms to ignore what we don't like. WoTC should have told that to the complainers, since it is what I did when they put out new lore that I didn't like. I either didn't use it or subtly changed it. It just shows how unnecessary these overhauls were.
Better than 90% of the complaints were due to poor DMing or from optimizers. That is not a problem with a setting, that is a problem with people, like religion and politics. Any system would work if people weren't involved.
Sorry if I sound bitter, but I am. Just like always, new and improved means it sucks.
WotC went for the changes that they believe would have the best impact on the player base. It seems that there were more people to reach with different views then your own. I understand you don't like the changes, feel free not to, but you have to understand that it was done with the intent of growth. For the setting, books, fan base and their income.
Risky, yes. Needed, yes. Wanted by a 'supposed' majority, yes. Sucks for those of us that dislike the changes, but it doesn't stop us from enjoying the game.
WotC went for the changes that they believe would have the best impact on the player base. It seems that there were more people to reach with different views then your own. I understand you don't like the changes, feel free not to, but you have to understand that it was done with the intent of growth. For the setting, books, fan base and their income.
Yes and feedback is what lead to the changes. Negative Feedback lead to the changes and consistent negative feedback to the changes will hopefully result in similiar changes.
Still, that isn't here nor there for this topic. Everything in D&D is only as important for your game as you want it to be.
True, simple and BOOM.
Seriously, you're trying to squelch discussion. Please stop.
So long as it doesn't violate the COC, let them complain all they want.
I never said people couldn't talk/discuss or otherwise engage in conversation. Please stop putting intent into my posts that isn't there.
I stated the simple truth of the matter, I never said people had to stop talking.
I feel the same way about 4E DnD. It is a totally different game and shouldn't be called DnD, because it doesn't scan/feel/play like DnD. At least previous editions built on the same foundation.
And unfortunately, it is all important to DnD, because the players have expectations. If you tell them you are starting a new DnD campaign and use Rolemasters' system, don't the players have a right to be upset, because you misled them? If you are playing using the setting of Faerun and start using the Dragonlance settings' rules for mages, don't the players again have the right to be upset? When you use a rule system or setting, players have the right to expect things to be a certain way, don't loyal customers have the same right?
Just so you know, all 12 of my players have rejected all of the 4E stuff, on their own. Even my 18 and 16 year old sons have the same complaints as I do, without any coaching or influence from me. I told everyone I DM for I would use 4E if that is what the majority wanted. They bought the materiel, read it and tried it and everyone thought the same thing. The most common phrase was "everything has been dumbed down".
I may not play it, but I have the right to express my dissatisfaction in a non threatening and non aggressive way, as a previously loyal customer and supporter of RPG's in general, and DnD/Forgotton Realms in particular.
And again, new does not mean better.
In the case of this thread, it's why the Gods of the Realms are important.
Let's stay on topic please.
In the case of this thread, it's why the Gods of the Realms are important.
Sorry, just tired of being told to stop voicing my disappointment when nobody was forced to use the old Realms, but it got overhauled anyway.
Sorry, just tired of being told to stop voicing my disappointment when nobody was forced to use the old Realms, but it got overhauled anyway.
No one is forcing you to do anything... goodnight! It changed, some like it, some don't, some feel iffy about it. I accept that and life goes on.
Using what we want and leaving the rest to collect dust is something I (and a lot of people upset now) have said for a long time. This doesn't change because 4e has or FR, it applies just the same.
As to gods in FR, again, they are good to use if you want.
People feel attacked or like they're being forced to submit to defeat when it isn't so. If anyone needs to take a step back and 'chill', it's them.
Now I'd rather this stop so we can get back on topic.
*also, it's not defending the coc, it's (trying) to get people to do their part to make sure it works.
You keep trying to shut me down by stating a truth over and over, trying to make it appear that you are the only one who has a valid opinion, and that I am not worth the time to engage in a debate. By ignoring my questions and mischaracterizing my statements, you tried to shut me down. Others noticed it too.
In fact, I agreed with you in spirit, just not the time of implementation.
Thanks for the lack of respect.
Few remained with the dead Bane or wished him back, from what I remember. They eitheir went to the new flavour of evil, or went for the son and basicaly went for the position of bane.
There were two purges of the remainder of his church after his death, so some stayed very loyal. Xvim got worshipped because he was a suragate for his father, and much preferable to Cyric in the eyes of the hardliners.
Gods are used to continuously move forward epic plots in the realms (as shown by the Baulder's Gate Series of computer games, as well as various novels). Therefore, for many campaigns, the existance or non-existances of various powers affects old plot developments, and personal preferences of the people who play in the realms.
Advice given is that I don't have to use the gods to further storylines, but the people who play the Realms prefer to have the gods at least behind the scenes manipulating and pushing forward the adventure.
Is this correct, or did I miss something?
Okay... so what I have gathered, before the debate is that the Gods got overused during 2nd Edition as main characters, and a lot of people have grown attachments to them. That gives us the teeth gnashing aspect, I can respect that, even if I don't really care about the gods too much.
Gods are used to continuously move forward epic plots in the realms (as shown by the Baulder's Gate Series of computer games, as well as various novels). Therefore, for many campaigns, the existance or non-existances of various powers affects old plot developments, and personal preferences of the people who play in the realms.
Advice given is that I don't have to use the gods to further storylines, but the people who play the Realms prefer to have the gods at least behind the scenes manipulating and pushing forward the adventure.
Is this correct, or did I miss something?
The god's for better or worse are a part of the Realms, and their actions, and those of their followers will continue to have an impact on cannon of the realms.
In your own campaign you can use them as much or as little as you like, but they do make for great plot tools.
The god's for better or worse are a part of the Realms, and their actions, and those of their followers will continue to have an impact on cannon of the realms.
In your own campaign you can use them as much or as little as you like, but they do make for great plot tools.
Or just tools in some cases.
Which is the point i was trying to make...
Hey!! Me, too!!! Isn't that a coincidence?
Now where did that crack pipe go?
In the Forgotten Realms, everyone has a patron deity (apart from the very small minority of the faithless). Essentially, this makes the choice of one's character's patron part of character creation - the choice becomes a way of reflecting some greater or lesser part of the PC's personality.
Does this in some part give an indication as to why some of the reactions of the loss of various gods have been, well, very personal? Speaking for myself, I see so little in common between Lathander and Amaunator - at least, as *my* cleric understood Lathander - that it's going to precipitate a huge crisis of faith and a rather large character arc for my main PC. I see her wondering if she should accept something she has hithertofore fought quite vehemently as a heresy... contemplating whether birth, death, and rebirth must be seen as part of a holistic cycle, even if the consequences of that are painful for her... and eventually deciding to stick with her initial instincts and remaining true to Lathander in whatever way she can. (Of course, I'll see if it pans out that way or not; that's my initial sense if it.) This is just the replacement of one god. Imagine the consequences of the loss or amalgamation of so many gods for so many players / PCs!
In the Forgotten Realms, everyone has a patron deity (apart from the very small minority of the faithless).
That is not true. "Everyone" does not have a patron deity and many pray to or venerate many.
Thus, the Fugue Plane--or what was the Fugue Plane.
I never used it, anyways... my wife didn't care for it.
In the generic setting of Dee &nd Dee, divine spellcasters didn't necessarily have to worship a god to obtain their magical might. Many of them called on an ideal of importance to them to grant them their spells.
In Forgotten Realms, if you want spells but don't want to tap the Weave to get them, you have to worship a god. If you want to enjoy your afterlife and avoid becoming part of a wall made of souls, you have to worship a god.
So essentially, many of you are right. Gods are important in this setting because they fill a niche in the daily lives of people. It's ingrained in the religions and culture of sentient beings of every kind.
And finally, it's important because Ed Greenwood apparently wanted it that way. He probably felt that a world full of rich and comprehensive history would go well with one full of rich and complex deities. I'm not saying TSR and WotC necessarily pulled it off like he and Jeff Grubb could have given free reign, but they got the basic picture.
That's how I see it, anyways.
That is not true. "Everyone" does not have a patron deity and many pray to or venerate many.
Thus, the Fugue Plane--or what was the Fugue Plane.
I beg your pardon, but I never said that people in FR didn't pray to or venerate many gods. ;) They would do so as the situation and their personalities dictated (e.g. when travelling at sea, they might pray to and/or offer tribute to Valkur and/or Umberlee, depending on preferences, philosophies, availability of shrines, etc.). This does not change for a moment the fact that nearly everyone (and I did indicate that it was not a total majority - you even quoted this) was said to have a patron deity. It's right there on the first page of the deities chapter in the 3e FRCS: "Characters of Toril nearly always have a patron deity."
As for the Fugue Plane: dealing with the souls of the faithless is *far* from its only purpose. (Not that I'm saying you don't know this - but, taken alone, that does appear to be what your statement implies, even if it isn't.) Most souls go there until they are called by their deities or servants of their deities, not because they have no patrons - and, in addition, many of those who stay there are avowed faithful of Kelemvor.
And, as far as we know, 4e FR doesn't hold to this.
Yes, but we're talking about why changes from the 3e situation have caused such a strong reaction from fans - so, ultimately, our subject must surely be why the gods were important in 3e FR, yes?
And unless your character is an Elf, he/she may not have that issue since it was unlikely they survived the 100 years.
My character is an elf. ;) (A sun elf. Don't know how I'm going to deal with this "you were really an eladrin all along" stuff... What an immersion-breaker! Mind you, the whole Seldarine thing would be even worse. Thankfully, since my character grew up among humans, she's always been a Faerunian Pantheon kinda gal...)
Given the new rules and lore, the patron deity concept is going bye-bye. Most people end up in front of Kelemvor regardless of which god(s) they venerated. Only a select few get taken off to their deities home plane. I don't know what the criteria used to judge souls is, but it is no longer lip service to a god.
I still haven't figured out why this is now the case, from an in-game point of view... Maybe I'm missing something in the literature - but I can't see what cosmological change in Abeir-Toril led to the worship of a god no longer being required. What happened to the Wall of the Faithless? (I hated the blasted thing, both in and out of character, but I still want to know what became of it.) Help, anyone? :embarrass
I beg your pardon, but I never said that people in FR didn't pray to or venerate many gods. ;) They would do so as the situation and their personalities dictated (e.g. when travelling at sea, they might pray to and/or offer tribute to Valkur and/or Umberlee, depending on preferences, philosophies, availability of shrines, etc.). This does not change for a moment the fact that nearly everyone (and I did indicate that it was not a total majority - you even quoted this) was said to have a patron deity. It's right there on the first page of the deities chapter in the 3e FRCS: "Characters of Toril nearly always have a patron deity."
Well, girl, you did say “everyone.” Gotta get on that. ;)
As for the Fugue Plane: dealing with the souls of the faithless is *far* from its only purpose. (Not that I'm saying you don't know this - but, taken alone, that does appear to be what your statement implies, even if it isn't.) Most souls go there until they are called by their deities or servants of their deities, not because they have no patrons - and, in addition, many of those who stay there are avowed faithful of Kelemvor.
I’m aware. Though, I may disagree with “many of those who stay there.” I mean, that wall really can be an eyesore.
I still haven't figured out why this is now the case, from an in-game point of view... Maybe I'm missing something in the literature - but I can't see what cosmological change in Abeir-Toril led to the worship of a god no longer being required. What happened to the Wall of the Faithless? (I hated the blasted thing, both in and out of character, but I still want to know what became of it.) Help, anyone? :embarrass
As I post. Now that is humorous.
Though, I don't get it either.
Well, girl, you did say “everyone.” Gotta get on that. ;)
In the Forgotten Realms, everyone has a patron deity (apart from the very small minority of the faithless).
:P
I’m aware. Though, I may disagree with “many of those who stay there.” I mean, that wall really can be an eyesore.
I'm really not seeing where you're getting this sense of disagreement between us. "Many" = followers of Kelemvor. This does not preclude the fact that others = faithless. (And I also think the wall is horrible. I might like some individual forgotten realms gods, but my personal, out-of-character opinion of the religious system as a whole is that it's appalling.)
EDIT: well, the sense of misunderstanding would appear to have resulted at least in part from post lag...
EDIT: well, the sense of misunderstanding would appear to have resulted at least in part from post lag...
I'm willing to let this one go, lady. Too tired.
I'll get you later though. Start a post about how rabid giant rats are going to take over Fareun and I've got you easily. ;)
I'm willing to let this one go, lady. Too tired.
I'll get you later though. Start a post about how rabid giant rats are going to take over Fareun and I've got you easily. ;)
Nooooooooo!!!
;) :D
I still haven't figured out why this is now the case, from an in-game point of view... Maybe I'm missing something in the literature - but I can't see what cosmological change in Abeir-Toril led to the worship of a god no longer being required. What happened to the Wall of the Faithless? (I hated the blasted thing, both in and out of character, but I still want to know what became of it.) Help, anyone? :embarrass
One of those things they haven't quite explained. Probably the biggest break with cannon that has no explanation.
Kelemvor, out of gratitude, let it stay that way.
No more wall is good.
No more wall *is* good... But it would also be good to know why it is no more! (I'm guessing that lack of info falls into the silly category...)
My answer is that the Betrayer was able to lead a Third Crusade and destroy it.
Kelemvor, out of gratitude, let it stay that way.
This answer pleases me. I think it's ridiculous that there was absolutely no chance to do anything about the Wall in "Mask of the Betrayer" - supposedly due to canon - and now canon has nothing to say about the blasted thing. :D
No more wall *is* good... But it would also be good to know why it is no more! (I'm guessing that lack of info falls into the silly category...)
-Yup, lack of knowledge...Ho hum, what's new?
"Elminster did it."
I won't say how, Just that he did it.
Spellllplaguueeeeeee
*waves hands in front of him absently*
SPELLllplaguuueee
Spellllplaguueeeeeee
*waves hands in front of him absently*
Now do the wave and you'll have it.
Slacker.
Besides, we all know that giant rabid rats ate the Wall of Faithless. Giant roaches, too. You just don't leave a whole wall of meat lying around without some sort of infestation.
-If something did indeed destroy the Wall of the Faithless, I wonder what happened to all of that Incarnum/Spirit Energy? Topic fodder for another thread...
As the wall was pretty much an integral part of the plane and, once again, with the Spellplague threatening to destroy the plane itself, the wall may have been sacrificed.
As for the souls, I imagine they ended up with Kelevmor and whatever he wished to do so with them.
-If something did indeed destroy the Wall of the Faithless, I wonder what happened to all of that Incarnum/Spirit Energy? Topic fodder for another thread...
Maybe Asmo used it to dropkick the demons to the bottom of the EC?
According to WoTC, all of these changes were made due to complaints of complexity or powerful NPC's.
I am tired of everyone telling us that are unhappy with the new Realms to ignore what we don't like. WoTC should have told that to the complainers, since it is what I did when they put out new lore that I didn't like. I either didn't use it or subtly changed it. It just shows how unnecessary these overhauls were.
Better than 90% of the complaints were due to poor DMing or from optimizers. That is not a problem with a setting, that is a problem with people, like religion and politics. Any system would work if people weren't involved.
Sorry if I sound bitter, but I am. Just like always, new and improved means it sucks.
They probably changed it due to sales figures and marketing. They are a big company (Hasbro) and would not last long just by listening to complaints made on the internet.
They probably changed it due to sales figures and marketing. They are a big company (Hasbro) and would not last long just by listening to complaints made on the internet.
Actually, that's overestimating the marketing research they put into this. Hasbro's basic response is to hire people who like the game and have their own ideas and then tell them "make us money."