The one I stand by for my game is that she was a demon. She needed no other reason to despise what Corellon had created. There was peace, there was love, there was joy, and no demon would let that situation go unchecked. She turned the dark elves against Corellon by turning them against the other elves. Nothing breaks a parent's heart more than to see their children trying to kill each other. It was the best way she had to destroy what he had created and to put him in agony.
So he kicked her butt.
Determined to get her revenge, she misled the drow with her own tale about whichever of several legends you want, intending that the game wasn't over until she won. Over the eons, the drow were fed on her propaganda until they generated their own tales of the evils of the surface bastards and thus the hate was perpetuated. With the drow believeing she was a deity, she managed to snag some divine ranks of her own to make it a reality. Meanwhile, she's hedged her bets with some other races, misleading them in similar ways, with one or two poised to strike at the drow should the need arise (in my game it has).
I think she may have loved him at first. Admired him intensely even, as the pinnacle of elven ideals. I think she took great pride as a young goddess, wooing him, winning him, having Corellon choose her as a bride above all others.
But as time passed, she could no longer bear to be seen as inferior or subservient to Corellon in any way. Nor could she even abide to rule the Seldarine as his equal, at his side. She does not accept anyone as an equal. Araushnee had come to to view the world as a natural pecking order, as a food chain that could only have one big kahuna at the top, and she wanted to be on the top.
She made her play, and she failed. She was not as prepared as she had thought. But she learned her lesson and instills it perpetually in her followers: Do whatever you must to survive and rise to the top. Life is a continuous struggle for dominance. Failure brings debasement or even death. Winning means you live and thrive... until someone else can pull you down and take your place.
Let me know. Thanks.
She's the original Psycho feminist supremacist...nuff said
When he asked her "Why? I have given you everything...", she replied "EXACTLY, you would have given... true power is seized!'
She didn't like that she was only allowed that which Corellon 'bestowed' upon her.
Methinks a few bits and pieces can be found in Cormanthyr, which is a free download on the main site.
Like an average runner who trains hard but just can't manage to achieve the level an olympics class runner had to begin with :P
One legend about Araushnee that I read was that after the elven nations had settled in and began to lead the idyllic lives they are commonly associated with, she insisted that at least some part of them must remain in a state of military preparedness to fend off any would-be attackers. Just because they had extracted themselves from underneath the "creator races" didn't mean that they could relax. There were other races who did not like the elves and envied what they had. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance," as it were. Corellon refused to allow her to keep her people, the dark elves, trained and threatened to erase them as a race if she did. The other elven deities supported him, so she trained them in private. When he discovered this, the deities rallied their people against Araushnee and her people and (I guess to prove their dedication to peace, love, and trail mix) declared war, determined to hunt the dark eleves and their goddess to extinction. Her people were better prepared for war, but they were outnumbered by a long shot. A war of attrition was one she could not win, so she led her people to relative safety underground, where they were sealed up and left to die. Her own anger and desire for revenge twisted her so badly that anger and revenge became her peoples' sole purpose for living.
Even the setting against males reflects Christian legends. Women were considered mentally inferior and in need of subjugation because of Eve's weakness. All women were supposed to be patterened off of Eve, therefore, all women were weak and inferior and needed men to rule them. Likewise, a male deity proved fickle and contradictory (dead set against preparing for war and preaching peace but waging a war of annihilation against a nation of elves who were not threatening him, weak for not being willing to maintain a defense against readily apparent enemies (orcs, goblinoids, humans, etc.), therefore all males were assumed to be patterened off of Corellon and needed to be controlled.
Hatred is easier to perpetuate than love and forgiveness, and so it flourished among the wronged dark elves, who had no other input to prove any of the propaganda that they were being fed false. Hatred also feeds on itself and this is reflected in the drow societies feeding on themselves in the sea of chaos that makes up their customs. Only the faintest trace of the proud elven nation that they once were remains to keep them from self-destructing entirely.
That's my
.Shiftkitty's story sounds nice but is in disagreement with the GHotR, where Lolth was already cast down before she started to coax the dark elves in worshipping her.
If you read that novel, you can see how she went from merely be their patron, to becoming their goddesss. Unfortunetly, some of FR's lore conflicts with core lore, but thats always the way of things.
After all, if Toril is the homeworld of the Fey race, and the Fey created the Elves, that makes Toril THE most important world in D&D cosmology.
Especially considering that the collapse of the Weave re-aligned the entire cosmos, not just Realmspace. ;)
I like to think of Toril as the 'Garden of Eden' of the D&D universe - it is where all life begins, and travels forth and multiplies, eventually to find its way home, and come full-circle.
Like the Elves did...
Somehow, I just like the idea that Lolth couldn't stand that everyone was just happy just lying around Arvandor without terribly much ambition or desire to do anything but have fun.
Shiftkitty's story sounds nice but is in disagreement with the GHotR, where Lolth was already cast down before she started to coax the dark elves in worshipping her.
I don't have GHotR. I was basing my bit off of some older articles. Given all the tweaking around that they're doing, rewriting history as it were, I picked the stuff that fits best into my world. (One of my own players argued that if WotC isn't going to pay attention to their own canon, why should we?
)For the sake of the reality of my world, Lolth is evil for evil's sake. She doesn't like others being happy, even if they're happy about the same things she might be happy about.
...if WotC isn't going to pay attention to their own canon, why should we?
Indeed.
And I'de like to note that neither Ancient Judaism nor Christianity was as bad to the fairer sex as you made it appear. There were several women who had authoritive roles such as Deborah who was not only a Prophetess but the Judge over all of Israel.
But you are right now that I think about it. The Corellon/Araushnee tale IS striking familiar to the Adam/Lilith story. Hell, Corellon got Sehanine to be his consort after Lolth did her stunt right? So this is how it is then if we look at it like that.
Corellon - Adam
Araushnee/Lolth - Lilith
Sehanine - Eve
And Lilith DID become like the first Vampire or something and was considering to be the mother of demons. Sll in all it's a very interesting comparasion.
off when people asked about it since he always felt that she was a heresy that diminished the role of Eve as the first woman while also turning the Fall of Man into a sexist parable instead of one about Obedience To God.He wasn't always right about some things (He insisted she was unrelated to the Summerian Goddess) but I always was interested in it.
But it'd be interesting to ask Elaine Cunningham over in her thread in Candlekeep whether she had the Myth of Lilith in mind when she was creating the origin of Lolth in Evermeet.
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that this interpretation of Lolth did come from Lilith. And their names both start with an L!
Instead, Lolth should be treated as anti-feminist in her own way. A smoldering set of neuroses and weaknesses that contrast sharply against the Elven Goddesses who are all stronger in their own way.
Anti-feminist? Set of neuroses and weaknesses? Dear me, where can I get the stuff you had before writing this? :D
Anti-feminist? Set of neuroses and weaknesses? Dear me, where can I get the stuff you had before writing this? :D
Let's see...
* Lolth uses sex to get what she wants rather than merit.
* Lolth uses men (Gruumsh/Malar) to attack Corellon.
* Lolth insists on being oppressed despite the very clear aspect this is all a product of her mind.
* Lolth's chief enemy is a set of three females (obvious Mother Goddess parallels) who banish her rather than the man.
* Lolth is very much the stereotype of the misandrist
for no other reason than because.Yes, I'd say she's an Anti-Feminist character and a pile of Neuroses.
After all, if Toril is the homeworld of the Fey race, and the Fey created the Elves, that makes Toril THE most important world in D&D cosmology.
For Fey based Elves anyway....and those Lizard things that live in the Great desert that are decendants of the toad faced "creator Race"
True Halflings are from Athas Realm(Dark Sun), True Humans are from Earth Realm, and True Dragons are from Dragonlands Realm,blah,blah blah yadda,yadda yadda.
But then again the goddlings and their Overlords and other "powers that be" did that "Great Migration thing" were living beings and creatures were traded, stolen, or their own varient created as well as the sentinent races own ability to explore and migrate through the palnes of existance and "evolve" naturally and through Magic,etc.
Favorite one is the "Life Masters" of Athas (being "halfling") manipulating their genetics in the bulk of their community to adopt to the "Green Age" via turning themselves into Humans, Dwarves,Giants,etc to help fill geographical niches.
Next one is same thing in a "Future Earth" setting where Humans bioengineer themselves into Space dwelling Astroid Mining Dwarfs, Space Ship piloting and Star base maintenence Halflings, Tera-forming pinoneering elves and Techo Engineer inclined Gnomes (Think it was called Camelot 30000AD?)
And of course the Dragonlands where clearly everything was a succesion of copy cat creations where the 5 Elemental gods made elves from wood but they were too aloof, Dwarves from Stone but they were too stolic, and Humans from the Earth but they were "too much like the gods" and "perfection" was when they took a 6 legged lizzard and added a pinky from each of their being to create Dragons (Of course Dragons tell the Legend and in truth it is 99% likely another "shake and Bake" Realm with a lot of the "Great Migration" Gates (Crystal Gates) not only still visible but still operational until the current war making it a guarded resource and means of power (With the whole aother world tech,magic,and herbology giving the keepers of the gate power....like with that "dragonsbane" herb or even being technically able to go to Krynn and bring back a Dragonlance)
Let's see...
* Lolth uses sex to get what she wants rather than merit.
Hearsay. I doubt that she conquered her realms in the Abyss be sleeping every demon out of her way or seducing hundreds of big guns demons ... if you think otherwise, please provide proof.
* Lolth uses men (Gruumsh/Malar) to attack Corellon.
Ahem, you mean it would have been cunning and clever and very woman-like to go against him herself, being a lesser deity as opposed Mr. Big Gun Mega-Elf? (BTW, what she did was a very feminine way of solving problems.)
* Lolth insists on being oppressed despite the very clear aspect this is all a product of her mind.
Where does that notion come from? That is the statement that she insists on being oppressed?
* Lolth's chief enemy is a set of three females (obvious Mother Goddess parallels) who banish her rather than the man.
What? I mean I know whom you refer too and all, but if someone gets one over you (which was effectively Corellon, not the threesome, who only thwarted the plot) you are not strictly against everything female - which your initial post implies? She calls and views herself as the Dark Mother of all Drow and promotes everything female within their society, so again, what's the point you are trying to make? Her hatred against the Threesome suddenly extends to everything female? Or did I lose you somehwere?
* Lolth is very much the stereotype of the misandrist
Cannot follow that point of thought either, as I fail to see any (FR related) substance to it and would like to inquire about certain amount of proof as well.
Yes, I'd say she's an Anti-Feminist character and a pile of Neuroses.
IMHO ... and that is of course just that, MHO ... utter conjecture on your part, built upon assumptions taken from less than a handful of events of the Dark Mother's 30,000 year FR history.
Too bad. It was pretty lengthy and well-researched, IMO.Kenzuki I should have made myself clearer. I was aware at the time of writing that the early Christians were far more egalitarian than their later counterparts. Unfortunately, I was on limited time. I had read an essay that claimed Peter and Paul were misogynists, and it's because of their inclusion into the "approved" gospel to the exclusion of other, lesser known books that, after the church got organized, women ended up with the short end of the stick and the whole thing got twisted into a patriarchal system. Sadly, I no longer have that document.
Peter and Paul were far from misogynists. I'm tired of this bullcrap people write when they go around cherry picking verses and ignoring all the rest.
I only have to say one thing. If drow are superior to other elven races how comes every evil drow Alediran met in his life is a pile of dust?
How about asking your DM about it?
But back to the Lolth vs. Corellon discussion, I sometimes wonder, when they designed Lolth, was someone going through a divorce, you think? I've seen male friends taken to the cleaners by unscrupulous exes. Sometimes it seemed as if sacrificing him to a demon/goddess would have been more merciful...
Hrmmmm try imagening what it would be if the Drow never had Lolth but had Tharizdun...
How about asking your DM about it?
I'm the DM. It's just simple, every drow we cross paths can't deal with our incredibly oiled team. Most of the time they don't even land a blow. And it's not a problem with the same strategy, I constantly change them (argentinian I know, it's harder to keep a pattern than to make one new for us.) but they are as good as me as adapting to the enviroment. Last session they effortlesly defeated three times their number, including Wizards and clerics, (not counting their luck, it's hardly surprising to see at least 3 confirmed criticals from our side and many failed attacks from them. Lady luck must favor them.) and of the appropiate CR.
I suppose my players have the advantage of being surface elves, the drow always are a little more reckless when trying to kill surface elves (or Kiaransalee brainwashed their minds and they don't care to die).
I'm the DM. It's just simple, every drow we cross paths can't deal with our incredibly oiled team. Most of the time they don't even land a blow. And it's not a problem with the same strategy, I constantly change them (argentinian I know, it's harder to keep a pattern than to make one new for us.) but they are as good as me as adapting to the enviroment. Last session they effortlesly defeated three times their number, including Wizards and clerics, (not counting their luck, it's hardly surprising to see at least 3 confirmed criticals from our side and many failed attacks from them. Lady luck must favor them.) and of the appropiate CR.
I suppose my players have the advantage of being surface elves, the drow always are a little more reckless when trying to kill surface elves (or Kiaransalee brainwashed their minds and they don't care to die).
Send an Avatar of Salvetarm and see if they breeze by lol.
I'm the DM. ...
Sorry, but I stopped reading here.
My players are experienced (two of my players are also DMs and we sometimes switch games). Luckly for us combat is only one side of playing, useful to stir things a bit. The first chapter of my campaign was an investigative adventure, the second is a classic dungeon crawl, the third will be a travelling adventure and the fourth will be a Heroes of Battle adventure.
We also don't have a true leader in the party, everybody takes lead when the situation calls for the PC's skills.
The characters are:
Alediran Tir'ent: Sun Elf Wizard 5/Elemental Savant 7
Ivelios Amaquila: Sun Elf Fighter 7/Champion of Corellon Larethian 5
Danathor: Lythari (originaly Wood Elf) Druid 12
Celadra: Drow (the +1 LA version) Cleric of Eilistraee 11
Lorelei "Brightsong": Moon Elf Rogue 3/Bard 7/Arcane Trickster 2
Kaede "Silverwings": Aasimar Fighter 3/Sorc 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Knight of the Weave 1
As you can see, except for Ivelios (and he packs a lot of damage on every swing of his sword, critical hits are always above 40 hp of damage) every player has access to arcane or divine magic (and they are aware of drow's spell resistance, they are prepared for it with spells without SR, Alediran is the only who does cast SR spells because his high CL check against SR). The druid even has a +1 Drowbane Spear.
Here's a new question, that I'm curious to see if someone can answer. There's a beautiful piece of fan fiction that talks about Araushnee being jealous of Sehanine, and that Corellon loved her.
But jealousy burned in the heart of the goddess Araushnee; jealousy at the love between Corellon and Sehanine and what that love had wrought, and above all, jealousy at her husband’s position as the Colonel of Arvandor. Sensing her discontent, Corellon created for his wife elves who bore her beautifully dark features, and gave them unto her. Instead of easing her anger, this only enraged her, for she believed her husband was patronizing her. But she hid her rage behind a web of deceit, and she took these dark elves under her wing and she taught them to hate their Creator. She convinced Vhaeraun to join her in rebellion by appealing to his pride, and together the two plotted against the Protector.
I realize that Corellon and Sehanine had a relationship after Lolth turned traitor, but did they have some sort of relationship beforehand? If so, where did the writer get this information from? I'm curious if anyone knows.
I realize that Corellon and Sehanine had a relationship after Lolth turned traitor, but did they have some sort of relationship beforehand? If so, where did the writer get this information from? I'm curious if anyone knows.
In canon, it seems to be the other way around, but frankly from what we know of the leves. Corellon probably routinely had sex with Hanelli, Aerie, Sehaine, Solonar, Labeles, and goodness knows how many others. Corellon might have been a girl at any of those points as well.
Well, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, by Sutherland and Gygax, published in 1980, already had Lolth in there.
yes, it makes me wonder when they came up with her and why.
(I apologize if this was covered in a novel somewhere. I haven't read them all.)
Araunshnee was just an evil goddess.
LOLTH is a Demon AND a goddess.
Honestly, I think Lantheon shot himself in the foot.
Araunshnee was just an evil goddess.
LOLTH is a Demon AND a goddess.
Lantheon? Araushnee's initial alignment was never given and I would doubt that Corellon would have married an evil being.
Within Realmspace, Araushnee was a goddess, was cursed into tanar'ri form by her loving husband, reclaimed divinity soon after again and choose the name Lolth. Core stuff simply does not matter on here.
BTW, going by canon lore on her and "by default" current lore, Lolth in Core was always a deity, even though she is called Demon Queen and whatnot. Just check her stats. Fluff text is not important. :P
Sorry.
But yes, Araushnee's becoming a Demon then Goddess makes her about a million times worse than your average Goddess.
Lantheon? Araushnee's initial alignment was never given and I would doubt that Corellon would have married an evil being.
-Odds are, she was CN, judging by her behavior, and eventually went to CN with Evil Tendencies, to just plain ol' NE.
Corellon Larethian.
Sorry.
But yes, Araushnee's becoming a Demon then Goddess makes her about a million times worse than your average Goddess.
Couldn't be helped. We all go through that phase where we fall for that girl, that we know is bad for you, but we keep doing it anyway...
One of the theories that I have entertained is that she was corrupted somehow. Be it intelectual dark seduction, or something more innate, devious....
Was there a primordial, ancient elder evil, a Thing that Should Not Be that could have slipped in her being? tharuzidun?
Was there a primordial, ancient elder evil, a Thing that Should Not Be that could have slipped in her being? tharuzidun?
-Ghaundaur.
-Ghaundaur.
Good point. And good idea, story hook...
Small players can make big changes.
Good point. And good idea, story hook...
-It would also explained why Ghaunadaur was so extremely angered when he could not assimilate Lolth, enough to strike his own worship base down.
Good point. And good idea, story hook...
Small players can make big changes.
Oddly, in my 4E thread, I'm going to be doing a write-up of Ghaundaur as Tharizdun's avatar.
Good point. And good idea, story hook...
Small players can make big changes.
Nono ... this is not Lord of the Rings ;)
Nono ... this is not Lord of the Rings ;)
And yet, the little kender in Dragonlance... ;)
BTW, going by canon lore on her and "by default" current lore, Lolth in Core was always a deity, even though she is called Demon Queen and whatnot. Just check her stats. Fluff text is not important. :P
She wasn't ever actually a demon. Despite being largely stripped of her divinity and hurled into the Abyss, I wouldn't actually give her status as a demon (tanar'ri or otherwise). Corellon may have called her a tanar'ri when he chucked her out of Arborea, but she wasn't and isn't actually a fiend, despite her associations with them. Any tag of 'demon' applied to her is really just overly gracious semantics.
She wasn't ever actually a demon. Despite being largely stripped of her divinity and hurled into the Abyss, I wouldn't actually give her status as a demon (tanar'ri or otherwise). Corellon may have called her a tanar'ri when he chucked her out of Arborea, but she wasn't and isn't actually a fiend, despite her associations with them. Any tag of 'demon' applied to her is really just overly gracious semantics.
I disagree.
I like that Lolth, in addition to being a goddess, is literally an incarnation of evil.
She wasn't ever actually a demon. Despite being largely stripped of her divinity and hurled into the Abyss, I wouldn't actually give her status as a demon (tanar'ri or otherwise). Corellon may have called her a tanar'ri when he chucked her out of Arborea, but she wasn't and isn't actually a fiend, despite her associations with them. Any tag of 'demon' applied to her is really just overly gracious semantics.
To be the Devil( AH!)'s advocate... is that a Planescape retconing of the Greyhawk (specially)/Forgotten Realms's backstory?
She wasn't ever actually a demon. Despite being largely stripped of her divinity and hurled into the Abyss, I wouldn't actually give her status as a demon (tanar'ri or otherwise). Corellon may have called her a tanar'ri when he chucked her out of Arborea, but she wasn't and isn't actually a fiend, despite her associations with them. Any tag of 'demon' applied to her is really just overly gracious semantics.
-As the final issue of DRAGON says, concerning Lolth's origins, "Lolth's history is as tangled as the webs that wreath her Demonweb Pits. Some legends claim her as a demon who became a goddess, while others as a goddess who became a demon. The truth is a mixture of both."
-Anyway, in the Realms, when Corellon stripped her of her divinity and cast her from Arvandor, she was something. As that same article goes on to say, "[he] exiled her to join the demons she's come to resemble."
-An argument can be made for both camps. I prefer to look at it that when she was stripped of her divine powers, she became a demon in actuality, rather than simply by name only.
-As the final issue of DRAGON says, concerning Lolth's origins, "Lolth's history is as tangled as the webs that wreath her Demonweb Pits. Some legends claim her as a demon who became a goddess, while others as a goddess who became a demon. The truth is a mixture of both."
-Anyway, in the Realms, when Corellon stripped her of her divinity and cast her from Arvandor, she was something. As that same article goes on to say, "[he] exiled her to join the demons she's come to resemble."
-An argument can be made for both camps. I prefer to look at it that when she was stripped of her divine powers, she became a demon in actuality, rather than simply by name only.
I should probably point out that I wrote Lolth's entry in the final DRAGON.
I should probably point out that I wrote Lolth's entry in the final DRAGON.
-Your own web of intrigue has painted you into this corner, then, Shemmy. :P
Lilith isn't actually part of mainstream Jewish Mythology, just as a note. I had an Orthodox Rabbi friend of mine pretty much get royally
He wasn't always right about some things (He insisted she was unrelated to the Summerian Goddess) but I always was interested in it.
But it'd be interesting to ask Elaine Cunningham over in her thread in Candlekeep whether she had the Myth of Lilith in mind when she was creating the origin of Lolth in Evermeet.
Lillith wasn't a Adam (Human), she was a "Rapheal" ("Serpent","Leprechaun") that was presented to "Adam" by the "Elohim" (Plural) that "shaked and baked" Eden in 7 days from their Shattered cilivization on Earth cause "he" was lonely, But Lillith said she rather give birth 1000 times a day then be with "Adam" so she left and had her children in the still smoldering wasteland.(with her choice granted by the Elohim so she populated the world outside of Eden with her sons and daughters)
The Elohim then decided to just divide "Adam" into Male and female instead of finding "him" another companion as the reason why "Adam" wasn't made with a mate was because "he" was actually a hermaphrodite (Male and female combined....."A-sexual").
The weirder stuff of this is the 6 major races of "Angels' ("From the Sky") that existed before Adams("Humans") and their civilizations on Earth,Mars,Venus, and Rajat ("The Morning Star", Now the Astroid belt between Mars and Jupiter) and thier "fall from grace" causing Rajat to explode and it's destruction in turn destroying the cilivizations on Mars,Venus, and Earth.......then the "Eden Project" being an attempt to "recolonize" with Adam as the "caretaker" of sorts.
The "first Vampire" thing is amusing too as the Children of Adams mixed with the Children of Lillith once Adam and Eve was kicked out of "Eden" so she'd be eventually stalking her own desendents/bloodline
Um. As far as Loth...she got her asss kicked, her power stripped, and thrown into Hell so people saying Big "C" is "soft" is just funny.
True Power is knowing you don't have to use it unless absolutely necessary and don't have to flaunt it like a Tyrant to get things done or coward people into doing your bidding.
Example: My 140th level Cavalier is more then willing to talk/negotiate as while violence is a "quick solution" it can't solve all problems.(And there is no Honor in obliterating a inferior foe unnecessarily)
I should probably point out that I wrote Lolth's entry in the final DRAGON.
And thanks for that. For while it is still ambiguous, it is the only one which officially states (unless retconned) that she became something greater.
BTW ... EtttDWP speaks of a Shemeshka the Marauder, a NE female arcanoloth. Any relations?
Gold Dragon ... well, actually he was not "soft", just as downright stupid as the Egyptians in The Mummy were, entombing Imhotep as a living mummy which eventually will destroy the world at some later date. (BTW, she was cast into the Abyss and thrived, while Big C went on chasing dreams while his kin declined in status and numbers.)
Lillith wasn't a Adam (Human), she was a "Rapheal" ("Serpent","Leprechaun") that was presented to "Adam" by the "Elohim" (Plural) that "shaked and baked" Eden in 7 days from their Shattered cilivization on Earth cause "he" was lonely, But Lillith said she rather give birth 1000 times a day then be with "Adam" so she left and had her children in the still smoldering wasteland.(with her choice granted by the Elohim so she populated the world outside of Eden with her sons and daughters)
The Elohim then decided to just divide "Adam" into Male and female instead of finding "him" another companion as the reason why "Adam" wasn't made with a mate was because "he" was actually a hermaphrodite (Male and female combined....."A-sexual").
The weirder stuff of this is the 6 major races of "Angels' ("From the Sky") that existed before Adams("Humans") and their civilizations on Earth,Mars,Venus, and Rajat ("The Morning Star", Now the Astroid belt between Mars and Jupiter) and thier "fall from grace" causing Rajat to explode and it's destruction in turn destroying the cilivizations on Mars,Venus, and Earth.......then the "Eden Project" being an attempt to "recolonize" with Adam as the "caretaker" of sorts.
The "first Vampire" thing is amusing too as the Children of Adams mixed with the Children of Lillith once Adam and Eve was kicked out of "Eden" so she'd be eventually stalking her own desendents/bloodline
Um. As far as Loth...she got her asss kicked, her power stripped, and thrown into Hell so people saying Big "C" is "soft" is just funny.
True Power is knowing you don't have to use it unless absolutely necessary and don't have to flaunt it like a Tyrant to get things done or coward people into doing your bidding.
Example: My 140th level Cavalier is more then willing to talk/negotiate as while violence is a "quick solution" it can't solve all problems.(And there is no Honor in obliterating a inferior foe unnecessarily)
I don't really think anyone believes that story is true because it completely contradicts the Torah.
BTW ... EtttDWP speaks of a Shemeshka the Marauder, a NE female arcanoloth. Any relations?
The character predates me (and my use of the name as a board handle) by some years. The character was around in 2e in a bunch of Planescape books, and has showed up in a few places in 3.x as a notable person in Sigil.
BTW ... EtttDWP speaks of a Shemeshka the Marauder, a NE female arcanoloth. Any relations?
-Alright, I've spent about five minutes thinking. What does 'EtttDWP' stand for?
I don't really think anyone believes that story is true because it completely contradicts the Torah.
-Which doesn't mean anything.
Actually, I think Lilith was always a folklore Jewish Demon and the "Lilith was Adam's wife" was actually introduced in the Middle Ages in a book of Anti-Semetic short stories.
-Lillith appears in this fashion in some passages in the various Kabbalistic books and writings, none of which, of course, are mainstream canon.
I'm not familiar enough to say.
But, I do have to ask the Marauder why she doesn't think Lolth should be a Demoness?
-Alright, I've spent about five minutes thinking. What does 'EttDWP' stand for?.
Expedition to the Demonweb Pits ... wasn't that obvious? ;)
Charles Phipps
Yes, my question on that was whether she was a Demoness or Adam's wife in that.
The lore for the FR are pretty clear about this. What the Core lore says is interesting, but not relevant. If people refer to AD&D lore being the same for all settings, FR lore is the most detailed and ... going back to my initial statement, Lolth was indeed a deity (or rather "lesser power" / "goddess of Elven destiny" back then, DD, p.26) first, became a part-time tanar'ri and regained divinity once more.
We do talk Lolth, don't we?
But, I do have to ask the Marauder why she doesn't think Lolth should be a Demoness?
Unless I am mistaken, Shem is not really a NE female arcanoloth. ;) I would assume Shem goes by the most detailed lore available on her, i.e. Demihuman Deities.
But, I do have to ask the Marauder why she doesn't think Lolth should be a Demoness?
It's a question of Lolth's metaphysical identity, and what it means to be a fiend. Lolth as a deity is effectively a personification of a mortal conception of evil (and chaos and some other bits of her portfolio): she is what the belief in her makes her to be. Fiends on the other hand are physical incarnations of evil on a more primal level, divorced from mortal conceits. A fiend might arise spontaneously from the substance of its native plane (my namesake female NE arcanaloth for instance), or it might form from the core of a mortal soul drawn to a lower plane which subsequently undergoes a transformative event as that plane claims what belongs to it (Orcus for instance, having once been a mortal).
Lolth on the other hand was neither formed from the raw substance of a plane of manifest Evil, nor was she ever a mortal whose soul was digested and spat out by the Abyss (or another lower plane) after a sort of dark transfiguration. As a deity she might become evil and become corrupted by a lower plane, but beyond a certain level of affinity, it's simply beyond her nature to become a living extension of a lower plane like a fiend (whatever its origin) effectively is. She's evil aligned, they're -evil-. There's a fundamental difference between the two that cannot be bridged.
My personal perspective is that by her nature, Lolth as a deity lacks the innate connection to the Abyss that would make her a demon in anything more than name, and her substance is something that the Abyss either can't or won't utilize to fashion more of its children (unless Lolth cared to die and allow the Abyss to cannibalize her essence to form a race of fiends in the manner of how the Loumara were formed).
Of course, for 99.99999% of mortals, the difference between Belemshigor the Lord of the 987641st layer of the Abyss as a tanar'ri lord, and Lolth the "demon" Queen of Spiders is pretty much academic. The difference between the two really only comes into play if you get into Abyssal/Lower Planar politics, and what sort of power each of those respective beings wields in the Abyss proper versus the lower planes in general versus the prime material.
Of course I didn't have the space in the article to fully get into that difference between deity and fiend, nor am I sure that I'd want to really force my perspective on the issue in print so overtly. Really I just wanted to reconcile the Greyhawk and FR origin stories, and make some mention of the Silence and its effect on worlds on the prime outside of Toril.
I suppose it would then come down to the issue of whether Corellon physically has the power to strip an elf goddess of her divine rank, physically remake her soul into that of a creature of pure evil, and then promptly toss her through a portal into the lowest levels of darkness.
Good explanation, though I am curious if you feel that Demons can become Deities or whether the two terms are utterly irreconciable.
-Lillith appears in this fashion in some passages in the various Kabbalistic books and writings, none of which, of course, are mainstream canon.
Heck, and here was me thinking we speak of Lilith, the one time consort of Moloch, the second consort of Baalzebub, Lord of the Seventh! Silly me!
@ Charles Phipps ... he had the power, because he did it. The how does not exactly matter ... and probably never will to the designers. It is very much academical and trying to disect it down to the core is a task bound to fail, as we have hardly anything but a couple of facts to dwell upon.
Heck, and here was me thinking we speak of Lilith, the one time consort of Moloch, the second consort of Baalzebub, Lord of the Seventh! Silly me!
-Obviously not, since Charles was asking where in Jewish folklore she appeared.
Yes, my question on that was whether she was a Demoness or Adam's wife in that.
I'm not familiar enough to say.
-The former, most likely. Ancient Judiasm took to the concept that other "extraplanar powers", or whatever you want to call them existed- Egyptian deities, Mesopotamian deities, and so on. As the people of Mesopotamia existed as contemporaries, and the story of Lillith appeared during the Middle Ages, when Kaballah became 'popular', for a lack of a better term, it is likely that she was seen as a demon (as other 'extraplanar powers' who were worshiped by other cultures, such as Ba'al were seen as) first.
-Obviously not, since Charles was asking where in Jewish folklore she appeared.
-The former, most likely. Ancient Judiasm took to the concept that other "extraplanar powers", or whatever you want to call them existed- Egyptian deities, Mesopotamian deities, and so on. As the people of Mesopotamia existed as contemporaries, and the story of Lillith appeared during the Middle Ages, when Kaballah became 'popular', for a lack of a better term, it is likely that she was seen as a demon (as other 'extraplanar powers' who were worshiped by other cultures, such as Ba'al were seen as) first.
I definitely need to study more :P
In the 2e "Queen of the Spiders" it's stated that Lolth is not her real name. I believe this is in reference to if the players try to control her via her true name. I thought this was something that worked only against demons?
In the 2e "Queen of the Spiders" it's stated that Lolth is not her real name. I believe this is in reference to if the players try to control her via her true name. I thought this was something that worked only against demons?
-Well, no, her actual name is Araushnee, as that was her first name. Lolth was the name she gave herself, after being banished from Arvandor.
-Obviously not, since Charles was asking where in Jewish folklore she appeared.
Really?! :D
Shiftkitty
RE: Lolth and demon status
In the 2e "Queen of the Spiders" it's stated that Lolth is not her real name. I believe this is in reference to if the players try to control her via her true name. I thought this was something that worked only against demons?
Queen of Spiders was written long before Demihuman Deities and Evermeet. Both these books were Realmsbound though and I doubt that the Spider Queen's "true"/"previous" Core name was ever revealed.
As for "real name" or "true name" magic, that varied throughout the editions. Could actually check it in the new Tome of Magic ...
Really?! :D
-Read and behold!
As for "real name" or "true name" magic, that varied throughout the editions. Could actually check it in the new Tome of Magic ...
-A quick perusal of Tome of Magic did not mention the True Name of Lolth.
I know Lolth's truename. It's Lauren.
-That's odd. Most True Names sound something like, "Ashkendunterzifipenterglas'Jhaerety'Akkatunjgh", or something to that effect.
-A quick perusal of Tome of Magic did not mention the True Name of Lolth.
But something about the effects of truename magic on deities?
NB: No, it does not. (But most likely will in 4E.)
I wonder is there any connection between her and Queen of Chaos or Queen of Air and Darkness
NB: No, it does not. (But most likely will in 4E.)
-That's if True Name magic makes it to 4e. There wasn't very much support for it in 3e, to begin with.
-That's if True Name magic makes it to 4e. There wasn't very much support for it in 3e, to begin with.
Dunno, but AFAIK, it only made it into 3E with Tome of Magic, i.e. some time in 2006. Not that much time to make any impact. I like the shadow magic stuff more, I have to say - though noticed the book only after reading Eytan Bernstein's FR-related articles.
To unname someone like a god must be so hard it'd be stupid to even try for someone like Cyric (or Shar, anyway), for they'd need a few levels in the True Namer class. So, to ease the DC, they would've tried something like the truename for "[Mystra's truename] who doesn't suspect that I'm in Dweomerheart right behind her and about to obilerate her-hahaha" + Unname, or something.
Or maybe using her truename as a component of a far more complex spell of shadow magic, that could be easier to believe.
Anyway, I still believe that Lolth/Lloth VS Corellon was the most epic and spectacular cat fight ever.
Maybe the reasons go far before, when she was Araushnee or the demoness or whatever-she-was and the murder attempt was already in her plans. After all, Lolth tries hard to make sure her origins are murky at best, there is no certain absolutely correct history of hers AFAIK.
I like to think of Toril as the 'Garden of Eden' of the D&D universe - it is where all life begins, and travels forth and multiplies, eventually to find its way home, and come full-circle.
Like the Elves did...
Aw, thats beautiful.
Lolth isn't an Elder God like Corellon and her attempts to measure up to him are kinda pathetic.
Shar is an Elder God as are Selune and Amaunator (later Lathander).
For me, I differentiate between Greater Gods and "Elder Gods" in my games. Elder Gods are those created at the Dawn of the Universe and are ridiculously powerful.
Lolth isn't an Elder God like Corellon and her attempts to measure up to him are kinda pathetic.
Shar is an Elder God as are Selune and Amaunator (later Lathander).
Was just going to ask how you came to the conclusion that Corellon predates Araushnee/Lolth ... but then I noted "I" and "in my games"
One of Corellon's titles is First of the Seldarine. Which means he is the Eldest member of the Elven Pantheon.
No, it means "First of the Seldarine". :D As in: He's the one at the top.
Another example ... "Princeps Senatus" (First of the Senate) was a title carried by the Roman Emperors and rest assured, there were many senators in the senate who were far older then the respective emperors.
But we know from the Elven Myths that from Corellon the other Seldarine were born.
Well, the myths actually vary on that subject. Some elven myths say that Corellon created the other elven gods, while others say many of them were born at the same time. Seldarine means "brothers and sisters of the High Forest," after all, not "brothers and sisters and parent."
Some of them, like Shevarash, Vhaeraun, and Eilistraee, are certainly younger than the others, but we don't know for sure that Araushnee, Sehanine Moonbow, or Labelas Enoreth (for example) are any younger than Corellon is.
Was just going to ask how you came to the conclusion that Corellon predates Araushnee/Lolth ... but then I noted "I" and "in my games"
Also, frankly, it's just outright stupid to have it otherwise.
Araunshee's entire thing is she's probably weak even amongst the Seldarine.
Kiranshalee is older!
Kiranshalee is older!
-Not necessarily.
True, though I always liked it that she was in the Abyss first when Lolth got her butt tossed down.
I
Kiaransalee.“Araushnee,” she whispered. “Guide me, Great Weaver. Guide your lost one to freedom.” She stepped through the door.
Stop, ordered the darkness. Don’t go through. Don’t forget, I still have your children’s souls.
“I won’t forget,” she promised the world of Thanatos. “I’ll be back for them.”
She stepped into a forest where all the leaves of the towering trees were shining silver-bright. There seemed no end to the land, no place where it dropped off into the sky. “The High Forest,” she whispered.
Oh my, whispered the trees. You are a lost one. What has become of you, princess Kiaran?
“I was a queen,” Kiaransalee said to the wind.
You were a slave, the leaves laughed at her.
“I have been many things,” Kiaransalee admitted.
You have only been a slave. To your family, to your husband, to your vengeance, to that thing in the dark. You have only been a slave.
“I have learned much,” said Kiaransalee. “I am so much more than I was.”
No, said the trees, and thousands of red eyes looked at her from silver webs. You are still a slave. You will always be a slave.
“This is the fate you intend for me?” Kiaransalee clenched and unclenched a fist, her hand wanting to work magic but not having a direction to point in.
This is your fate, said the spiders.
Kiaransalee stretched out her power, the power she had gained by drinking of Orcus and learning his secrets. The ground rippled. All around her, the divine spiders of Araushnee died. Then they got up again.
“I will defy my fate,” said Kiaransalee.
All of reality rippled. The skies above the silver trees darkened.The pale cold fire within the dead spiders went out. The spiders quickened with new life.
A nice trick, said the spiders. A pretty new collar for Orcus’ little kitty. Drink of my venom, kitty,and perhaps you can choose the collar you think you want. But you can only ever trade one collar for another, kitty cat. You will always be a pet. You will never be truly free.
The spiders were everywhere. They came toward her like a great wind,and she could not stop them. Her changes were instantly erased. They filled her mouth and nose and eyes. Unwillingly, she drank.
None of us are free, said Araushnee, looking sadly at her misguided daughter. The goddess knew what was to come. She knew all of it: the unforgivable atrocities that Kiaransalee was yet to commit, Araushnee’s own betrayals millennia later. She was a goddess of fate; she spun the threads of destiny even as destiny spun her. There was nothing she could do. She could cut the threads, but they were all that supported her. Without them, she would still fall into the Abyss. Araushnee wept venomous tears, and went to be comforted in the arms of the god she had chosen as a lover.
I like that she really was a minor goddess that Corellon raised up too far.
Well, the myths actually vary on that subject. Some elven myths say that Corellon created the other elven gods, while others say many of them were born at the same time. Seldarine means "brothers and sisters of the High Forest," after all, not "brothers and sisters and parent."
Some of them, like Shevarash, Vhaeraun, and Eilistraee, are certainly younger than the others, but we don't know for sure that Araushnee, Sehanine Moonbow, or Labelas Enoreth (for example) are any younger than Corellon is.
And, personally, I've been liking the idea of Labelas being the oldest member of the Seldarine.
Remember that pantheon heads are often NOT the oldest member of their particular divine family.
He's probably older than any god but Ao.
He's probably older than any god but Ao.
-In Realmspace. It's important to make that distinction. Anyway, him and deities of that calliber- Moradin, Yondella, etc.
Zeus was the third sky god figure head of the Greek pantheon, Odin came after Ymir (and who knows how old any of the Vanir were?), the first Meso-American deities tended to be female Earth goddesses, Tiamat (the bitter salt water version) was the first Babylonian deity, Ptah was the first deity (according to one of the established Egyptian cosmogonies), etc.
And I am less of a dwarves fan. Would just be nice to see somes of such things they say is not quite as true as they present it.
Again, you can be The Awesome without being the oldest. The oldest, in fact, tend to... Well, age.
I know.
I also believe that it doesn't quite work for a god of immortal and eternally young fae.
I know.
I also believe that it doesn't quite work for a god of immortal and eternally young fae.
They weren't immortal or eternally young until Labelas Enoreth came along (elven agelessness is specifically Labelas' gift). If Corellon is older than Labelas, it would make sense for him to appear much older than the rest of the elven gods. Hanali Celanil has a fountain of beauty, of course, but that's different from a fountain of youth. While gods don't always age as mortals do, your argument depends on a comparison with the mortal elven race.
I also think your "this seems to increase Lolth's power too much" post is puzzling. Without any support for your opinion, I must confess I have no idea what your justifications might be. Why would Lolth be "too powerful" just because she is older than Kiaransalee, and potentially as old as Corellon Larethian? Age, as Dan persuasively pointed out, does not correspond with power among the gods.
I actually prefer leaving the relative power between Corellon and Araushnee, and who might have actually been in the "right" in that particular argument, ambiguous. The drow claim their goddess is the rightful ruler that Corellon usurped, while the surface elves claim the opposite. While their alignments are clear, the actual legal merits of their cases need not be. Corellon is a chaotic god, after all, and banishing the rightful inheritor of Labelas' power and giving his priests a false version of events isn't beyond him, if he thought the greater good was served by him doing so.
Eh, for me, I tend to think Corellon is the AwesomestTM.
He's probably older than any god but Ao.
Well, as an interloper, it's quite possible that he's older than the formation of Toril (and thus presumably Ao).
I rather like the idea that Corellon was the first of the Seldarine yes, but not initially a god of elves, rather having been formed by the worship of an incredibly ancient race of mortals, now long forgotten. As obscenely old as he was, having been formed already by the faith of a mortal race, with his original followers decimated (perhaps incidentally) by the obyrith/tanar'ri war versus the Wind Dukes, he could have created the first elves as new worshippers in imitation of the Eladrin races of Arborea. He might have even witnessed (and been inspired by) the Eladrins' creation by the hands of the now vanished celestial progenitor race whose ruins remain on Pelion/Mithardiir.
The Creator Fey race, a proto-Fey race. That was their god.
Would that fly?
They weren't immortal or eternally young until Labelas Enoreth came along (elven agelessness is specifically Labelas' gift).
Then I'd prefer Corellon not to be an elf.
:-)
Perhaps the god of the Fey?
Or maybe he was just a child of older gods, like Frey and Freya. The Illithiad recounts an elven creation myth where the gods are the children of Mother Earth and Father Sky (page 38).
Meanwhile, Races of the Wild suggests they appeared, fully formed, in the primal void (page 25).
On Hallowed Ground suggests a number of origins for the elven gods: some grew from elven passions (presumedly Hanali Celanil), some rose from nature (Rilifane Rallathil, I'm assuming), while others existed before the first elf drew breath (Corellon, Sehanine, and Araushnee would all be among these, since elves were born from Corellon's blood while Sehanine was aiding him against Gruumsh, and Araushnee was aiding Gruumsh).
Since Kiaransalee was an elf, and Araushnee was very much around when the first elves were born, Araushnee must be older than Kiaransalee (if the myths have any truth to them).
Rather than present her as powerful, I actually tried to stress how Araushnee, as goddess of faith, was almost powerless to do anything but what her fate demanded.
Since Kiaransalee was an elf, and Araushnee was very much around when the first elves were born, Araushnee must be older than Kiaransalee (if the myths have any truth to them).
Rather than present her as powerful, I actually tried to stress how Araushnee, as goddess of faith, was almost powerless to do anything but what her fate demanded.
With regards to the above and the novel-bit above, do keep in mind that a) Kiaransalee was not of this world, b ) Araushnee is the name of Lolth before her descent on this world and thus c) it is unlikely that Kiaransalee was a worshipper of "Araushnee" somewhere else. (Which is of no concern to your way of viewing it, of course.) That said, we do know that the Seldarine was in place at the time of Kiaransalee's retreat to the Abyss, as she gained godhood there to escape the Seldarine's wrath for her deeds on Threnody.
Still, coming to think of it, Araushnee was, though just a minor goddess, the Weaver of Destiny amongst the Elven deities. And deities/beings of fate- and destiny-weaving are generally quite old as well and hold much power, even on greater beings than themselves. GothicDan will surely be able to expand on the role of the Germanic/Norse Norns (et al), whom even Odin had to fear.
I found it interesting that it's basically stated that Lolth had forseen her rise in power.
When Pharaun, Danifae, Quenthel, & Jeggred are standing in the old Demonweb Pits at the gateway to Lolth's new DWP - they encounter the Abyssal Widows... Danifae mentions that she heard mention of them as growing up and that she always thought that they were heresy.
Their reply was that they "were only legend. Were only prophecy".
This sets my mind going on all kinds of trains. Mainly that Araushnee/Lolth was the Weaver of Destiny for Elves. She might have followed the path that she has because she knows the final outcome and has known it all along. She might be thwarting the drow's return to the surface not just because she is making them stronger, but because the time still isn't right from what she has forseen.
Even as a deity of Chaos, she may still have a grander design that she is following to a greater goal.
I was ho-hum on Lolth until book 5. Then I was like: "ooo! oooo!!!"
(sad, huh?)
With regards to the above and the novel-bit above, do keep in mind that a) Kiaransalee was not of this world, b ) Araushnee is the name of Lolth before her descent on this world and thus c) it is unlikely that Kiaransalee was a worshipper of "Araushnee" somewhere else.
I'm not following your reasoning. Before Araushnee was known as Lolth, she was a member of the Seldarine (at least for a time, though she may doesn't seem to have originated as one). If there was a period of time between the creation of the elves and Araushnee's fall (and there must have been a fairly lengthy one, if Kiaransalee was an elf and fell first, unless Kiaransalee managed to rise to power and destroy her homeworld the day after she was created), presumedly there would have been elves who worshipped Araushnee, whether on Threnody (where they certainly worshipped the Seldarine) or Toril (though there probably weren't any elves on Toril back then, which would have been over 30,000 years ago).
I'm not following your reasoning. Before Araushnee was known as Lolth, she was a member of the Seldarine (at least for a time, though she may doesn't seem to have originated as one). If there was a period of time between the creation of the elves and Araushnee's fall (and there must have been a fairly lengthy one, if Kiaransalee was an elf and fell first, unless Kiaransalee managed to rise to power and destroy her homeworld the day after she was created), presumedly there would have been elves who worshipped Araushnee, whether on Threnody (where they certainly worshipped the Seldarine) or Toril (though there probably weren't any elves on Toril back then, which would have been over 30,000 years ago).
Quite simple: Araushnee was the name of the FR goddess (a member of the FR Seldarine) whereas Kiaransalee was originally not a FR deity. Cannot point my fingers on it, but I would assume that she entered the Faerûnian pantheon pretty late - in the lorebooks that is 1996 - AFAIK with Evermeet and Demihuman Deities. So it is only conjecture to say that a) Araushnee belonged to the Core Seldarine and b ) even more so that Kiaransalee may have worshipped her. As it looks, it seem more likely that Kiaransalee did not worship anyone. Back then, even the Araushnee of the Realms may not have taken up steps to dispossess Corellon, or even was "evil".
-I never liked the notion of a Fey creator race. That is, a race that all other Fey creatures spawned from.
But like Aphrodite's clergy saying she was born of the Sea foam when she was in fact the Daughter of Zeus and a Nymph, it can be hard to distinguish truth from history,legend,lore, and or "fact"
The Creator Races, from my understanding, didn't so much "create" their servitors,subjects,and thralls as they did manipulate there own gene pool to adopt to the environment or steal/migrate peoples from Elsewhere in the Multiverse (via the "Crystal Gates"?) and tinker with their Genes to make different creatures for different means and tasks
As far as the "first Migration' I believe Elves got the "dibs" on being Migrated in first thus "Abier-Toril" (Cradle of Life) and "Faerun" with their godlings in tow and the "Serpentines" coming in next (with their godlings in tow) and they having a habit of importing Slaves of other races with their godlings in tow
All that isn't to odd about Toril being the place of the "True Elves" in the Multiverse when Earth is where "True Humans" come from, and Athas is where "True Halflings" and "Tri-Kreen" come from and "Dragonlands" is where "True Dragons" come from. ("True Orcs" come from the Abyss, and "True Dwarfs" come from the Elemental Plane of Earth)
But like Aphrodite's clergy saying she was born of the Sea foam when she was in fact the Daughter of Zeus and a Nymph, it can be hard to distinguish truth from history,legend,lore, and or "fact"
-I'm talking about the cold, hard facts of the Creator Races, and in this case, the Fey Creator Race- of which, we know very little, truthfully.
The Creator Races, from my understanding, didn't so much "create" their servitors,subjects,and thralls as they did manipulate there own gene pool to adopt to the environment or steal/migrate peoples from Elsewhere in the Multiverse (via the "Crystal Gates"?) and tinker with their Genes to make different creatures for different means and tasks
-Each Creator Race was different, in what they did. Some may have evolved into the races that are believed to be off-shoots of them. Others were created. I never really considered steal/migrate peoples, but the Fey Creator race fit this bill, concerning the early Elves, whom they brought to Abeir-Toril, for whatever reason. An essay in Elves of Faerûn, entitled 'The First Coming of the Elves' centers upon this topic.
So it is only conjecture to say that a) Araushnee belonged to the Core Seldarine
It's likewise even more amazing conjecture that Araushnee was only a local goddess who joined the Seldarine once they arrived as interlopers and established a divine presence on Toril.
And it's not conjecture that Araushnee was the name Lolth was known by on worlds beyond just Toril when she was ejected from the Seldarine. While it was first described in an FR book, it's not a uniquely FR tale describing her fall. It's the common myth for Araushnee/Lolth's fall into Evil, unless you're using a wierd Seldarine-of-the-multiverse-outside-of-Toril and FR-Seladrine are entirely different and unconnected.
It's the common myth for Araushnee/Lolth's fall into Evil, unless you're using a wierd Seldarine-of-the-multiverse-outside-of-Toril and FR-Seladrine are entirely different and unconnected.
-Zanan does that sometimes.
Of course, I think Sehanine is full of hoo-ey, which leaves me in the dubious position of believing Lolth's story over hers... Lolth's story at least doesn't contradict Corellon's entire backstory.
For my own game-world, Corellon was a chaotic fey warrior type, who met a reserved elven goddess of fate and arcane mysteries. They made elves, of equal parts flesh and magic. She spent a lot of time weaving and viewing strands of fate for their chosen people (and trying to tame the wild Corellon, while he equally tried to get her to 'lighten up' and live a little, not be so serious all the time). She was sucked into her viewings of possible futures and manipulated *by her future self* into becoming more dictatorial and supremacist, convinced that other races would hunt her people and that they would be driven into the depths of the earth! (Twisted visions of the future that skipped little details like that they had to retreat under the earth after betraying their own people!) Under her churches urging, many elves began to mistrust the other races, manipulating them and 'guiding' them to be less of a threat (and if this sometimes required them to sabotage human, dwarven, etc. efforts, to 'keep them in their place,' behind the scenes, so be it).
And so Araushalnee was corrupted, by her own visions of a future where elvenkind had been driven underground, which had become a self-fulfilling prophecy, as she reached back through time to guide her trusting former self along this dark path. Corellon resisted his chosen people 'guiding' (and, by this point, all-but dominating) the other races, as it conflicted with his free-willed ethos and his less-developed sense of morality. But she had 'foreseen' this as well, and turned several of her children against him and those who stood with him. In the end, she succumbed fully to the demonic taint and became the Spider-Queen we know today, and Seldarine fought Seldarine, until it was clear that she was beaten and she sounded the retreat. Shevarash had fought on her side, and fought his mentor Solonor, being the only one of her children to choose to remain behind and not leave with her (along with Kiaransalee, Elistraee, Selvatarm and Vhaerun). As she pulled away, Corellon reached deep within her, pulling forth the last dying remnants of the goddess he had loved and giving those feeble embers of divinity a home within his own body, becoming a god not just of war and energy, but also of magic and craft, with even his features changing subtly, so that his children who remained behind saw not just their father, but also their mother, as they gazed upon him.
So in my version, she tried to kill Corellon because she had been deceived into thinking that the elven peoples were doomed because of his weakness and unwillingness to subjugate the 'lesser races.' The only 'doom' that came upon the elven peoples was the doom that she was bringing about, and, fittingly, the only elves 'driven underground' where her followers, and all because of her actions, which she believed were to prevent such a fate.
Then again, that's just the story told at temples in my game. In the next game-world over, Sehanine does the heavy lifting and Corellon's long-forgotten, his entire past having been edited away by her clergy.
-Zanan does that sometimes.
Nay ... always. I've always regarded the cosmologies of different settings as ... what did Gothic Dan say ... bottled. Especially since the new FR cosmology came up. You get namesakes and similarities, but not necessarily synonymous deities, realms and the like.
Hence I am a bit hesitant to say that there was an "Araushnee" in the old Core Seldarine. The whole Araushnee/renaming scenario comes from the Realms and if you like to project / mirror that to the Core Lolth / Seldarine, no problem.
-See, Shemmy?
It's cute.
It's cute.
-It looks like your...Shemoticon has it's mouth sewed shut!
-I never liked the notion of a Fey creator race. That is, a race that all other Fey creatures spawned from.
I don't care much for the idea, myself.
I don't care much for the idea, myself.
-If the Realms were entirely self-contained, that'd work. But, the fact that they aren't (or weren't) messes up that entire notion.
Quite simple: Araushnee was the name of the FR goddess (a member of the FR Seldarine) whereas Kiaransalee was originally not a FR deity. Cannot point my fingers on it, but I would assume that she entered the Faerûnian pantheon pretty late - in the lorebooks that is 1996 - AFAIK with Evermeet and Demihuman Deities. So it is only conjecture to say that a) Araushnee belonged to the Core Seldarine and b ) even more so that Kiaransalee may have worshipped her. As it looks, it seem more likely that Kiaransalee did not worship anyone. Back then, even the Araushnee of the Realms may not have taken up steps to dispossess Corellon, or even was "evil".
Lolth is called Araushnee in Races of the Wild, so yes, she belonged to the "core" Seldarine as well as the Forgotten Realms version.
It is, I fully acknowledge, conjecture that Kiaransalee worshipped Araushnee or anyone. But it's canon that Kiaransalee knew of the Seldarine, and that Araushnee was a member of the Seldarine at the time Kiaransalee was a mortal.
In my version of the story, Araushnee was not "evil" at the time, but as the spidery goddess of fate, she was dark and somewhat frightening.
But like Aphrodite's clergy saying she was born of the Sea foam when she was in fact the Daughter of Zeus and a Nymph, it can be hard to distinguish truth from history,legend,lore, and or "fact"
This is a very misleading statement. There were conflicting myths of Aphrodite's origins, both of which had equal weight, and later on they distinguished the two origins with calling the seam foam one Aphrodite Urania (of Uranus, whose castrated bits the sea foam formed), representing more transcendental beauty. It's similar to how we have the cupid Eros, and the original primal force of attraction Eros. Both the primal Eros and Aphrodite Urania enter the picture in Hesiod's Theogony, from our records, but surely there were folktales behind these origins.
That being said: I love this thread. The Seldarine themselves is one of the prime reason I love the Tel'Quessir. And I've always been a fan of the Seldarine being linked to the Vana.
Kiaransalee came from the world of Threnody and became a demigoddess before -30 000 DR (the War of the Seldarine and Lolth's fall). Seems to me she didn't worship anyone except herself.
That could be. All we know for sure is that she fled to the Abyss to escape the wrath of the Seldarine. That suggests she at least respected their power, even if she didn't worship any of them.
I agree that if she ever worshipped them, it was likely by the time she destroyed her planet she did so no longer (and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise - in my story, she attacked Araushnee the one time they met in person).
Anything else is speculation. There's no reason to assume she was faithless all her life, though. If she grew up as an elf in a culture that knew of the Seldarine, as she did, it seems likely that she was taught to worship them. I decided that for my purposes the patron of her house was Araushnee, who seemed appropriate considering how closely Kiaransalee's banishment by her husband the king mirrors Corellon's later banishment of Araushnee/Lolth.
Lolth is called Araushnee in Races of the Wild, so yes, she belonged to the "core" Seldarine as well as the Forgotten Realms version.
So they actually imparted FR lore into Core lore with that book. Neat! Did not know that ... which irks me, of course ... and thus stand corrected. (Won't discusss it again before ... say ... Wednesday. Nightshifts and all take their toll.)
It sort of deprecates their decision to separate the cosmologies, if you ask me. I didn't like it in the first place, but the only worse thing than doing something bad, is doing it poorly.
I'm actually happy that the separation isn't strict.
But although the name "Araushnee" was first introduced by Ed Greenwood in The Drow of the Underdark (1991), the idea that Lolth was originally a goddess of the Seldarine first appeared in "In the Frost and Snow" in Dragon #155 (1990), which was set in Greyhawk. Her pre-banishment name was given as Megwandir there, which later appeared along with Araushnee as one of her aliases in Demihuman Deities (1998), a book set firmly in the Great Wheel cosmology. Planes of Chaos (1994) and On Hallowed Ground (1996) also mentioned that Lolth was part of the Seldarine at one point, although neither source gave her any name other than Lolth, and the idea that she was once Corellon's consort didn't come until later, in Demihuman Deities and Evermeet: Island of the Elves (1999).
The Races of the Wild version of the story is similar to the Forgotten Realms version in that it says an elven goddess called Araushnee was once the consort of Corellon Larethian. However, it differs by saying that the two deities had a daughter called Vandria Gilmadrith, a goddess of war who resembles neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun. Neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun are mentioned. So it's not exactly the same as the Realmslore. The rest of the myth is pretty much the same - Araushnee secretly aids Gruumsh in his battle with Corellon, is cast out and renames herself Lolth. Malar isn't mentioned, of course, nor is the word "anti-Seldarine" used. It's not really incompatible with the Realms version - I mean, it's possible that they had three children, not two - but whether the story blurs the lines between Reams and core or shows more clearly the point at which they separate is a matter of opinion.
So they actually imparted FR lore into Core lore with that book. Neat!
The core "Drow of the Underdark" [3.5], uses the Araushnee = Lolth origin legend as well.
Look like GH stole from FR! :D
Of course they did! That will add fuel to e.g. Shem's campaign with regard to one cosmology for all settings (more or less like it was in AD&D).
Hm ... what shall I say now ... how about: "Lazy designers! Couldn't make up your Core Lore and stealing good old FR stuff without thinking of the sleepless nights that fickle FRers and Core'ers will face now!" ( ;) )
But although the name "Araushnee" was first introduced by Ed Greenwood in The Drow of the Underdark (1991), the idea that Lolth was originally a goddess of the Seldarine first appeared in "In the Frost and Snow" in Dragon #155 (1990), which was set in Greyhawk. Her pre-banishment name was given as Megwandir there, which later appeared along with Araushnee as one of her aliases in Demihuman Deities (1998), a book set firmly in the Great Wheel cosmology.
-Interesting. It's been mentioned at a reply at Candlekeep that, in the Realms, Megwandir is the name that Lolth appropriated from a Snow (possible Snow Elf) deity.
-Interesting. It's been mentioned at a reply at Candlekeep that, in the Realms, Megwandir is the name that Lolth appropriated from a Snow (possible Snow Elf) deity.
Here's the original article. Megwandir was the lover of the snow elf god Tarsellis Meunniduin, seducing him and later betraying the Seldarine. The same myth was retold in On Hallowed Ground and Demihuman Deities, but with Fenmarel Mestarine replacing Tarsellis Meunniduin and Lolth/Araushnee in Lolth/Megwandir's part (and given as an explanation for Fenmarel's self-exile).
And, personally, I've been liking the idea of Labelas being the oldest member of the Seldarine.
Remember that pantheon heads are often NOT the oldest member of their particular divine family.
I wrote up Labelas as being Correlon's brother, and perhaps even older brother, but being too detached and concerned with his own interests to take the job of big kahuna. (So he'd end up being like Poseidon and Hades, technically equal to Zeus, but not really, or Vili and Ve, technically Odin's peers, but staying out of the way.) Deep Sashelas (more obviously a 'Poseidon' to Correlon's 'Zeus') may also be a 'brother' of Correllon.
As for the oldest god of the Seldarine, in my cosmology, that was Aerdrie Faenya, who was a goddess to the avian creator race back when elves were still a gleam in Corellon's eye. Her original worshippers have fallen far, and she's the 'crazy aunt' of the Seldarine, now worshipped by more elves and giant eagles than aarakocra.
I still think any attempts for FR people to even try to claim Lolth/Araushnee as specifically Realmsian (Zanan! ;)) are utterly ludicrous. I think Rip gave ample suggestive facts why this would be so.
Over at Candlekeep, I've just send Rino for some punishment to the Loviatar temple and I have absolutely no problem sending you too. Obviously, there are only females swinging the scourges there today
It is about origin of the name, of course. If the designers would not retcon themselves time and again, even after creating a seperate FR cosmology for 3E, we would not face such debates. But we are all only humans, so essentially bound to make mistakes. Then again, only you are! :D
Also: I like how Soltares thinks. Though I certainly wouldn't make Aerdrie the oldest... just a personal taste thing.
Angharradh, maybe.
Over at Candlekeep, I've just send Rino for some punishment to the Loviatar temple and I have absolutely no problem sending you too. Obviously, there are only females swinging the scourges there today
-Hey, you don't send Rino for punishment.
-Hey, you don't send Rino for punishment.
No? If you behave, I'll send a band of goblin slaves into the swamp to clean that stony heady of yours. And now be quiet please, else I can't hear GD scream! :evillaugh
Drow are blinded for a day with that spell :D
I told you that hanging underground all day would eventually cause schizophrenia, Zanan. :p
Matter factly, I nor Zanan have been underground lately. Maybe it is vice versa?
Anyway, back to the topic ere a WizO swings the axes ...
@ Alediran ... my SR beats that easily enough and Cloak of Dark Power does the rest.
What was the topic, again?
No? If you behave, I'll send a band of goblin slaves into the swamp to clean that stony heady of yours. And now be quiet please, else I can't hear GD scream! :evillaugh
-Believe whatever delusions you want...(They say Kiaransaleeans are crazy, but geeze, this is overkill!)
Matter factly, I nor Zanan have been underground lately. Maybe it is vice versa?
Anyway, back to the topic ere a WizO swings the axes ...
@ Alediran ... my SR beats that easily enough and Cloak of Dark Power does the rest.
It's just an Epic level spell that creates light (Conjuration) with the power of the sun, it doesn't directly affects any target, therefore SR doesn't applies and there aren't yet counters to it.
-Believe whatever delusions you want...(They say Kiaransaleeans are crazy, but geeze, this is overkill!)
Heck, you haven't even seen me in full swing ;)
Alediran ... Epic you say? :D
Can we revert to the topic?!
Heck, you haven't even seen me in full swing ;)
-Your multiple personalities have multiple personalities? Talk about exponential growth.
Can we revert to the topic?!
-We are. Zanan is a Drow, and the Drow are the subjects of this topic, by way of being connected to Lolth.
Your multiple personalities have multiple personalities? Talk about exponential growth.
Did you know that my hard-fought-for* avatar pic actually represents another of my personalities? (Of course you did, since Zanan would not hang about with spiders that much.)
Now, did anything came of this Megwandir discussion?
*Back in the good old WizO_Big Sister days, timeline contest ... ach well, those were the days.
Did you know that my hard-fought-for* avatar pic actually represents another of my personalities? (Of course you did, since Zanan would not hang about with spiders that much.)
-I thought that was Zanan, but okay...
Now, did anything came of this Megwandir discussion?
-Just what Rip posted.
*Back in the good old WizO_Big Sister days, timeline contest ... ach well, those were the days.
-All us 'old school' people miss her.
-Hey, you don't send Rino for punishment.
Awww...Hehe, I'm all right.;) Punishment doesn't seem to affect my bad behavior, anyway.
Well.. isnt this PRECISELY what her religion has been preaching for these last 10.000 years or so, kill your elders to advance yourself in life..
Asking a WHY, reveals a shocking ignorance of the basic beliefs held by the drows under lolth..
Otoh, there are plenty of "gurus" that merely give advice, but would never live as they teach. Like those save the earth enviournmentals for one.. or human rights activists.
why did lolth try to kill her daddy?
Well.. isnt this PRECISELY what her religion has been preaching for these last 10.000 years or so, kill your elders to advance yourself in life..
Asking a WHY, reveals a shocking ignorance of the basic beliefs held by the drows under lolth..
Otoh, there are plenty of "gurus" that merely give advice, but would never live as they teach. Like those save the earth enviournmentals for one.. or human rights activists.
Bravo for the inadequate, false and biaised political comment.
And we won't even talk about the depictions in the (new) Drow of the Underdark. Gah.
As much as I don't like Drow, personally, that was just a travesty.
Also: I like how Soltares thinks. Though I certainly wouldn't make Aerdrie the oldest... just a personal taste thing.
I liked Soltares' myth, too. I like his idea of Aerdrie Faenya being originally a member of the Aeree pantheon as well.
Bravo for the inadequate, false and biaised political comment.
-Of course, ikki said 'plenty', not 'all'. And, 'plenty' is, pun intended, 'plenty true'.
I'm surprised the drow haven't wiped themselves off the planet by now.
-The same reason we Humans haven't wiped outselves out, given our propensity for mass, large-scale violence.
I like his idea of Aerdrie Faenya being originally a member of the Aeree pantheon as well.
Granted, I do like that, too. And Elaine's novel does hint at the Seldarine arising from "even older Gods."
Perhaps Corellon as Fey, Aerdrie as Aeree, Sashelas as Batrachaii...?
Perhaps Corellon as Fey, Aerdrie as Aeree, Sashelas as Batrachaii...?
-I don't like that notion because that implies that they originated from Realmspace, rather than appeared as interlopers at a later time.
I always used to play around with the idea that they arose from the Norse pantheon, which is very multispheric!
Why would you say that?
-The Fey (The Creator Race version), the Batrachi, the Aeree, and so on, are, for all intents and purposes, Abeir-Toril specific. We have no reason to believe that any of these races existed elsewhere. Thus, the Seldarine, if all that were true, would have arisen in Realmspace, and wouldn't be interlopers. They'd be native deities, which we know they aren't.
I always used to play around with the idea that they arose from the Norse pantheon, which is very multispheric!
-That's fine, because the Norse Pantheon is...'based' on Earth, not Abeir-Toril, where the Creator Races' pantheons' would be based on. Get what I mean?
Why would you say that?
I always used to play around with the idea that they arose from the Norse pantheon, which is very multispheric!
Ah, but who corresponds to what in the Norse pantheon?
Hanali, who always seemed a trifle dull to me, would be really neat with an infusion of Freya.
And does that mean that Corellon, the bright-haired sky-god of the pantheon, is Thor, and his one-eyed father, former ruler of the gods, is... Gruumsh?
Wouldn't *that* be a twist and a half, the Seldarine and the Orcish pantheon being a house divided, as if the Aesir split from the Vanir and became more like brutish surly Fomori to the fair Elven Tuathe De...
As for the original question; Why did Araushalnee/Lolth try to kill Corellon? Because he was hogging the covers again.
And does that mean that Corellon, the bright-haired sky-god of the pantheon, is Thor, and his one-eyed father, former ruler of the gods, is... Gruumsh?
Well, Labelas Enoreth has only one eye as well.
But I think Dan's theory is that they were the children of the Vanir rather than the Aesir. The Vanir are more closely associated with elves in Norse myth, after all.
As far as the creator races go, I think at least some of them might well be multi-spheric.
-The Fey (The Creator Race version), the Batrachi, the Aeree, and so on, are, for all intents and purposes, Abeir-Toril specific. We have no reason to believe that any of these races existed elsewhere.
Somes postulate that the Feys moved to another plane, and the Batrachi may have became Slaads, but that's not quite along what you said.
And we won't even talk about the depictions in the (new) Drow of the Underdark. Gah.
This is based more on Greyhawk, and surprisingly close to what the greyhawkians do (apparently). They are even more evil sons of Meech there.
The Ghers tend to find the FR drow too... light. (From what I have seen)
Somes postulate that the Feys moved to another plane, and the Batrachi may have became Slaads, but that's not quite along what you said.
-It is canon that some Batrachi became Slaadi, I believe, but no, that isn't exactly the road I was heading down.
-While I like the setting, I think hypothesizing that deities such as the Seldarine first arose in Realmspace is placing undue focus on the setting, if you know what I mean. It is only one place in an infinite multiverse, and I am against having 'too much' stuff happening because of one little speck of dust in the entire multiverse.
And personally, I would have made the Creator Races - or perhaps the PROTO-Creator-Races - multispheric. The legends of non-mammalian/ape-like 'original species' isn't an idea specific to Faerun.
And personally, I would have made the Creator Races - or perhaps the PROTO-Creator-Races - multispheric. The legends of non-mammalian/ape-like 'original species' isn't an idea specific to Faerun.
-See, though, they're not. The closest thing we've got to a multispheric 'Creator Race' is the Juna, though, I think there were stories of a civilization even older than the Juna...Either way, though, the Juna certainly don't have anything to do with the Seldarine.
I say it's a judgment call. There's no official information on whether or not there might have been sarrukh or aeree on Oerth or Earth or Eberron, so it's up to the individual DM whether or not they want to put them there. Presuming that the aeree are unique to Toril, and Aerdrie Faenya was a goddess of the aeree, then yes, that means that Aerdrie Faenya - like Shevarash - is a member of the Seldarine who was originally native to Toril, like Ye'Cind is a member of the Seldarine who was originally native to Oerth. If you start with other assumptions, you might end up with other conclusions.
-See, though, they're not. The closest thing we've got to a multispheric 'Creator Race' is the Juna, though, I think there were stories of a civilization even older than the Juna...Either way, though, the Juna certainly don't have anything to do with the Seldarine.
Well, for example, do you really think that the Fey Creator Race of Abeir-Toril were the only/first Fey Lords in the Multiverse? I sure don't!
We have inferences of entirely different planar setups and different Celestials and Fiends than those of the current arrangement. We also have hints of a multi-Crystal Sphere spanning Illithid Empire...
And we have intelligent reptilian, amphibian, avian, etc. 'people' outside of Abeir-Toril. The scientist in me that so readily accepts evolution isn't about to dismiss all of the past potential for cross-pollination of multiple worlds.
Well, for example, do you really think that the Fey Creator Race of Abeir-Toril were the only/first Fey Lords in the Multiverse? I sure don't!
-If you consider the Creator Race Fey one and the same as 'Fey' creatures, no. I, however, do not- which is why I dislike the idea of a 'Fey' Creator Race that the Fey of Abeir-Toril are relatives of.
-And, as I said before, the canon of no other settings mentions Batrachi, Aeree, Sarrukh, and so on- the Forgotten Realms creator races as being specifically there, or having the same 'ancient progenator' role as they have in Realmspace.
They don't mention them by name, no. I'm just giving the ideas names that happen to be the same as those of Abeir-Toril. ;)
-Of course, the fact that other settings also have their own particular explanations for different creatures throws a wrench in things.
I say it's a judgment call. There's no official information on whether or not there might have been sarrukh or aeree on Oerth or Earth or Eberron, so it's up to the individual DM whether or not they want to put them there.
There have been references to Aarakocra on Oerth, but there's never been much done with them, nor with the Seldarine of Oerth, so I have no idea if Oerth-Aerdrie has any connection to the Oerth-Aarakocra.
I just like the idea of Aerdrie (and Jergal) being prehuman, and pre-elven, for that matter, leftovers from pantheons so old that nobody remembers them. Aerdrie, given her nature, might remember little of those days, or might daydream about them constantly. Possibly both. Jergal might remember those days much more precisely, and be quite comfortable with them being just that, memories. Or perhaps not. Maybe he's just biding his time, and awaits a future when the wheel has turned yet again, and his human / elven / dwarven gods that are now his superiors are as lost and forgotten as every other god he's ever known, while he remains.
-Of course, the fact that other settings also have their own particular explanations for different creatures throws a wrench in things.
But do they?
But do they?
-If the Oearth Kobolds were created one way, and Torillian Kobolds were created another way, yes.
But that's the point I'm making. A lot of the other hints/references don't have explicitly detailed backgrounds.
-Sure. Nothing explicitly says that Elves do not lay eggs. Now, do they? No. Nothing explicitly mentions the Torillian Creator Races 'expanding' to other planets, anything to that effect. Is it possible? Sure. Do we really have evidence to support it? No, not really.
In this case, the "it also doesn't say that Elves lay eggs.." argument doesn't work, in my opinion, because there ARE these similar mythological suggestions across the multiverse.
And, granted, who's to say that the Creator Races really WERE native to Abeir-Toril?
PS: Mind you, I'd probably tweak little bits of canon to make this idea work. I am aware I'm playing the role of Markus, here. ;)
And, granted, who's to say that the Creator Races really WERE native to Abeir-Toril?
-Nothing specifically says that they aren't native, and what little information we have, in my eyes, points to the idea that they are native.
PS: Mind you, I'd probably tweak little bits of canon to make this idea work. I am aware I'm playing the role of Markus, here. ;)
-See, there you go. Mind you, I have no problem with that, but, in an 'academic' debate like this...
-Nothing specifically says that they aren't native, and what little information we have, in my eyes, points to the idea that they are native.
See, I like the Creator Races. I just don't accept the native part, because then I'd want one of two things:
A) Divine creation myths or
B) Evolutionary lines.
But, you know, I go overboard with my own settings.
See, I like the Creator Races. I just don't accept the native part, because then I'd want one of two things:
A) Divine creation myths or
B) Evolutionary lines.
-While I'm sure they could exist, we shouldn't be privy to this information, as it is ancient, somewhat unrecorded history.
There's only a very few rare things that I don't like having more information about. One of them, is the plots of Shar - but I think that they should be up to the DM to plan and such, not WotC. I mean, we have mythological origins for Elves, Dwarves, etc., so why not Aeree or Sarrukh?
I mean, we have mythological origins for Elves, Dwarves, etc., so why not Aeree or Sarrukh?
-Because they don't exist anymore (except for one or two special cases). The Ancient Egyptians don't exist anymore, as they did 5000+ years ago. There are plenty of parts of their culture that we don't know- their spoken language, for example. Now, multiply this by a large factor, as the Creator Races existed 25,000+ years ago, in game terms.
And, we have multiple examples of their established pantheons intact. There are 3 big theogonies, and we have many, many cases of the anthropogonies (stories of mankind) across ancient cultures.
I'm not asking for hard facts, here.
Note, of course, that I'm rapidly becoming more and more focused on Comparative Mythology... So having too much knowledge about such things in real life could make me a bit biased.
Uh. We do know their spoken language. That's basically what hieratic was a reflection of. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure.
-If it wasn't Egyptian, it was another Mesopotamian-in-that-area culture. I recall my sister telling me about this fact.
And, we have multiple examples of their established pantheons intact. There are 3 big theogonies, and we have many, many cases of the anthropogonies (stories of mankind) across ancient cultures.
-Now, go back 25,000+ years. What do we have now?
25,000 years ago? Well, we didn't even have language or writing. So, uh, you can't compare that to Creator Races, who did. Jericho's been the longest settled area known, since about 6,000 BCE I think, and language and writing wouldn't have developed too long before that.
Mesopotamia was an entirely different area than Egypt, LK. Your words on this fact lose prestige with every sentence you say. *eyes.*
-They're next door neighbors. Iraq is...right, the map I have doesn't have a scale, but it's just one Jordan away from Egypt. And, Jordan is not a very large kingdom.
25,000 years ago? Well, we didn't even have language or writing. So, uh, you can't compare that to Creator Races, who did. Jericho's been the longest settled area known, since about 6,000 BCE I think, and language and writing wouldn't have developed too long before that.
-Point is, we don't know a lot (as compared to some more modern day societies) about many of the older civilizations. They had language, they had writing, they had technology, they had civilization. This is pushing 8,000 years, about. Why should information on the Creator Races, who existed even longer ago, be concrete, and availible?
Because they had societies as developed as the modern ones of Faerun?
-Civilizations of past day often had highly complex societies, like we have, and yet, information on them is often spotty. And, no matter how complex, the passage of time has a way of erasing these things.
I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying there's a heck of a lot of freedom here, because so little about the distant past is known.
Part of the reason that we know so little about the Etruscans is that much of the archaeological record has been destroyed by people plundering the ancient, Etruscan tombs and ruins for treasure. In fact, a quite common outing for the people of France was to picnic near the ancient Etruscan ruins, and to go searching for treasures amongst the tombs; destroying pottery, writings, and anything else that wasn't considered 'valuable.' Considering the fact that plundering ancient ruins is such a major component of adventuring, and that adventurers often care little about anything that isn't magical or worth selling, it seems logical to conclude that they may have engaged in similar forms of vandalism, thus forever destroying any records that might otherwise have shed light on the ancient cultures whose ruins they've pilfered.
It's a somewhat recent discovery, but it's there. We've also found segments of it among the Cyclades, which hint very strongly that they were indeed imports from Asia Minor.We also know quite a bit of Etruscan culture and religion from Rome. We know that there was an Etruscan dynasty in early Rome, if not a direct imperial rulership, based on the architecture of some of the early temples.
We've also found the Bronze Liver, which labels specifically which parts of the liver were used for what things in divination.
Er, yeah. *Shifty eyes.* Another specialty of mine: the Etruscans/Etrurians/Tyrrhenians.
That being said: no comparison of real life civilizations are analogs to those of Faerun because no real life civilizations have had magic, and from what we've seen the Creator Races had it in spades.
That being said: no comparison of real life civilizations are analogs to those of Faerun because no real life civilizations have had magic, and from what we've seen the Creator Races had it in spades.
-We have to draw comparisons to debate somehow.
I now find myself wondering if you cringed or snickered at the module that had a gynosphinx named "Etrusca" in it.
-I snicker whenever I hear 'gynosphinx'.
Actually, we do know the Etruscan language.
To my knowledge, the only thing that we have are samples of the Etruscan language written on the wrappings of a mummy, and some other major find, but I can't remember what the second one was. I don't think anyone has actually translated the language, though.
We also know quite a bit of Etruscan culture and religion from Rome. We know that there was an Etruscan dynasty in early Rome, if not a direct imperial rulership, based on the architecture of some of the early temples.
We've also found the Bronze Liver, which labels specifically which parts of the liver were used for what things in divination.
I said we know very little about them. I didn't say we know nothing about them at all. And even though we know quite a bit about them, it doesn't mean that we don't understand a heck of a lot more. For example, what caused the shift from depicting the dead as being much as they were in life, to depicting them as being tortured in the afterlife by the demon god Xaru? To my knowledge, nobody really knows.
Er, yeah. *Shifty eyes.* Another specialty of mine: the Etruscans/Etrurians/Tyrrhenians.
I love the Etruscans. The whole idea that they built massive necropolises (necropoli?) to house the dead absolutely fascinates me.
That being said: no comparison of real life civilizations are analogs to those of Faerun because no real life civilizations have had magic, and from what we've seen the Creator Races had it in spades.
True. However, my point is that looting has made it very difficult for historians to piece together what has happened in our own historical past. Given that it's such a major component of D&D, I think Lord Karsus's point is valid, in that a lot of information about the ancient empires in Forgotten Realms might forever be lost to history, thanks largely in part to the plundering of ancient ruins by adventurers.
No one cares.
The best thing to do in any RPG is burn the books. Call of Cthulhu has taught me that Ancient=Evil. Burn all of their cultural artifacts, melt down any antiques, and make sure any language that survives of that time is destroyed.
Then break down everything so it can't be used to summon anything. Oh, if you find some scattered primitive survivors...kill them.
-That's a terribly "neanderthalic" thing to do. I made up my own word just for the occasion.
Nah, with Phipps here! My adventurers behead any bodies they find/make after a zombie incident and baddies feigning death. Also, they're paranoid about going to sleep after an incident which involved sleeping PC's and animated beds. Heh. Any girl that comes onto them's also asking for a real good bashing, after their last romances turned out to be a doppelganger and one a werewolf.
This has led to this motto: When in doubt, set fire to it.
My adventurers behead any bodies they find/make after a zombie incident and baddies feigning death. Also, they're paranoid about going to sleep after an incident which involved sleeping PC's and animated beds. Heh. Any girl that comes onto them's also asking for a real good bashing, after their last romances turned out to be a doppelganger and one a werewolf.
-That must make for an exceptionally dreary life.
This has led to this motto: When in doubt, set fire to it.
-What happens when they have self-doubts?
-That must make for an exceptionally dreary life.
-What happens when they have self-doubts?
You've not played Ravenloft, i take it?=)
They don't have time for self-doubt; there's red clad zombies crawling down the chimney shouting ho ho ho!
Nah, with Phipps here! My adventurers behead any bodies they find/make after a zombie incident and baddies feigning death. Also, they're paranoid about going to sleep after an incident which involved sleeping PC's and animated beds. Heh. Any girl that comes onto them's also asking for a real good bashing, after their last romances turned out to be a doppelganger and one a werewolf.
This has led to this motto: When in doubt, set fire to it.
That's when you have the heads reanimate and chase the PCs around, shooting bolts of fire from their eyes.
Oh precious topic, where have you gone? The rails of the thread are so far behind us now. :P
You've not played Ravenloft, i take it?=)
-No, though I know of it, and am aware of the general principles and personas.
They don't have time for self-doubt; there's red clad zombies crawling down the chimney shouting ho ho ho!
-The Communists are coming?
-No, though I know of it, and am aware of the general principles and personas.
-The Communists are coming?
i reckon this thread's mangled beyond recognition now.
i reckon this thread's mangled beyond recognition now.
-See? The Communists ruin everything...
-Hey, Elven society is often communistic. Drow society isn't...Back on topic, sort of.
-See? The Communists ruin everything...
-Hey, Elven society is often communistic. Drow society isn't...Back on topic, sort of.
Heh, yeah, drow society's what happens when you let women rule. Lads get along just fine, if there's any bother, set us down in an irish pub and we'll get drunk and everything'll be better!
But...
How do you reckon the Descent mirrored Lolth's banishment?
How do you reckon the Descent mirrored Lolth's banishment?
-Well, both Lolth and the Drow went 'down'. With Lolth, it was to the Abyss, and with the Drow, it was to the Underdark.
-Well, both Lolth and the Drow went 'down'. With Lolth, it was to the Abyss, and with the Drow, it was to the Underdark.
And both got cursed, yeah, but when did Eilistraee, Lolth etc turn black? Knew they were dark, but would the High Magic affect someone not really a drow?
And both got cursed, yeah, but when did Eilistraee, Lolth etc turn black? Knew they were dark, but would the High Magic affect someone not really a drow?
-Deities don't have physical bodies or anything. They are just..."balls of divine energy". When the Dark Elves became Drow, and became onyx black, rather than brown, black, dusky, and so on, Eilistraee, Lolth, and Vhaeraun probably altered their appearances to better associate with their followers. Or, perhaps the Drow themselves changed the physical attributes of the deities, as they projected what they looked like to them? Like the 'White, blonde hair, blue eyed Jesus'.
So we have yet another precedent. It seems MR' Stigger's interpretation is right on the money.
You see (and hear) what you expect to see.
-See? The Communists ruin everything...
-Hey, Elven society is often communistic. Drow society isn't...Back on topic, sort of.
What sorts of politics do they teach over there?
Good Point - and when Shar spoke in the Fane of Shadows, each person there heard her in their native togue (Fleet heard Luiren, Riven Amnian, etc...)
That's an actual ability that deities have in 3.x edition (understand, read and speak all languages), so instead of each one "perceiving" things in their own image, Shar could have been speaking in all those different languages.
What sorts of politics do they teach over there?
-From the former East Germany, I take it? ;)
-Don't know which point you were addressing, but, yes, Communism as a governmental system fails, and, yes, Elven communities are fairly communistic.
-Don't know which point you were addressing, but, yes, Communism as a governmental system fails, and, yes, Elven communities are fairly communistic.
It fails because humans with their flaws don't allow them to succeede. Elves don't have the same kind of flaws that humans have and that's what allow them to live in a communistic style of life.
It fails because humans with their flaws don't allow them to succeede.
-It fails because it (Communism) is an economic system, and not a political system. Notice how Elven communities, with varying degrees of communism, have governmental styles seperate from their economic system? Some have Coronals, or Kings/Queens. Others have elders, or councils of elders. As a political and economic system, communism is not viable.
-It fails because it (Communism) is an economic system, and not a political system. Notice how Elven communities, with varying degrees of communism, have governmental styles seperate from their economic system? Some have Coronals, or Kings/Queens. Others have elders, or councils of elders. As a political and economic system, communism is not viable.
Unless is being run by machines that do everyting that is required.
-From the former East Germany, I take it? ;)
-Don't know which point you were addressing, but, yes, Communism as a governmental system fails, and, yes, Elven communities are fairly communistic.
Fully 20 years and no, Communism as a governmental system does not fail. The versions it has appeared in so far have failed - not least due to the circumstances and the environment.
Of course, capitalism as a system tends to fail from time to time too, as Nazi Germany and some others proved / proof.
But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience. reports.
Obviously, it depends on what sort of Elven communities you speak of. Some managed to survived (in setting, of course) a few thousand years, something which only a handful of real world "systems" can lay claim to.
Fully 20 years and no, Communism as a governmental system does not fail.
-Yes, yes it does. Name a Communist state that thrived under communism. As a political system, communism cannot, and does not, work. As a economic system, coupled with another political system, communism can work, as intended.
Obviously, it depends on what sort of Elven communities you speak of.
-The majority of Wood Elven settlements are communistic, or, at least, communalistic. Pure Sun and Moon Elven societies are the least communal, but this is because most Sun and Moon Elves settlements become saturated with N'Tel'Quessir, if not literally and physically, then idealistically, via trade. And, as stated, Drow societies are most commonly market-based economies, due to the faction wars, and trade.
LK ... I can take a 20 on my Will saves, you know?
-Excellent. I get all those pseudodivine bonuses, so I hear you.
-Excellent. I get all those pseudodivine bonuses, so I hear you.
And all you hear (read) is ...
But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience reports.
But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience reports.
But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience reports.
But we are straying from the topic ... and no, I am currently not interest in such sort of debates, even though I could give you first hand experience reports.
. . .
-Yes, and I ignored that. Conversations drift in and around the central topic, morph and become something completely different, and so on. That's life. Get used to it.
Read the other 50% of the sentences.
NB: And mind the word "currently".
-Yes, yes it does. Name a Communist state that thrived under communism. As a political system, communism cannot, and does not, work. As a economic system, coupled with another political system, communism can work, as intended.
China, Cuba and Russia (though they failed later, when Stalin rose to power).
But strayed too far! Make a new topic if you want to discuss communism and elves!
China, Cuba and Russia (though they failed later, when Stalin rose to power).
-China has only recently begun to thrive, and only in the most basic sense, after using a revisted form of Communisms with elements of capitalism in it. Cuba is anything but thriving. The common populace is still poor as ever, and have to deal with all of the Human Rights abuses. And, Russia is in the same boat. The common populace lived in poverty, waiting on bread lines and all for hours, and had to deal with all of those Human Rights problems.
But strayed too far! Make a new topic if you want to discuss communism and elves!
-Do you know the poster 'Krevon', by any chance?
-Do you know the poster 'Krevon', by any chance?
Never heard of him.
But i'm just gonna step away from this discussion now.
*Exits left*
Never heard of him.
-Never mind, then.
Russia (though they failed later, when Stalin rose to power).
It had already failed by the 1918-1921 period, well before Stalin had solidified his power (and executed or exiled most of the other original Bolshevik leaders). They had uncontrolled inflation through open printing of money, coupled with fixed prices which ended up causing a reversion to bartering in much of the countryside, and massive endemic shortages of consumer goods. Private industry was forcibly nationalized, and the state had a monopoly on grain purchases (in most cases via military seizure), later giving rise for massive starvation in the Ukraine and largescale executions even before the years of the Purges. Plus, as the added kicker, the system was focused on forced labor by the civilian population, not just by the military.
Ostensibly the policies of so-called War Communism begun by Lenin were due to the pressures of internal and external military conflict, except it began well before german hostilities and well after the obliteration of pro-czarist forces. It was never a temporary measure, but a model to impose full-fledged communism without any transitory period. Later Stalinist policies were simply an outgrowth of this, and the starvation and executions of millions during Mao's great leap forward were based on the same initial model. Cuba never saw the widescale depopulation via forced famine, gulag, and executions that Russia and China did, but the political repression was (and continues to be in many ways) almost as bad.
The more you know.
There's my tangent post for the year.
-Cuba is anything but thriving.
Yeah, I like that bit. Not that I want to comment too much on that, but could it just be that since Kennedy (you know, the JFK version) this fair country is effectively shut-off from the rest of the world by guess who? Now tell me, how should ANYTHING thrive there? It's essentially the Caribbean version of a country currently under the sway of *edited* ... you know, this is an American board and we don't want to get into bother by some ex-Cubans and the like.
BTW, East Germany was no Communist country. Socialist ... and on the way to Communism. As I said, much like Capitalism, Communism has seen various forms and all more or less ended up in some form of dictatorship. Once it reached that state, it was no longer Communism as such. And while we are at it, it's not like Capitalism is the peak of existence, nor is the so called democracy or "freedom" which runs so lightly over the lips of politicians these days.
Ah, made the Will save again.
BTW, cannot see anything Communist in a wood elven settlement within Realmspace ... of course, I have yet to see one in detail in print anyways.
As to Cuba... all things considered, they have done quite well when everything said they should be a starving, depressed, squalor-ridden mess. Though I agree that its probably best to avoid the subject entirely.
It had already failed by the 1918-1921 period, well before Stalin had solidified his power (and executed or exiled most of the other original Bolshevik leaders). They had uncontrolled inflation through open printing of money, coupled with fixed prices which ended up causing a reversion to bartering in much of the countryside, and massive endemic shortages of consumer goods. Private industry was forcibly nationalized, and the state had a monopoly on grain purchases (in most cases via military seizure), later giving rise for massive starvation in the Ukraine and largescale executions even before the years of the Purges. Plus, as the added kicker, the system was focused on forced labor by the civilian population, not just by the military.
Ostensibly the policies of so-called War Communism begun by Lenin were due to the pressures of internal and external military conflict, except it began well before german hostilities and well after the obliteration of pro-czarist forces. It was never a temporary measure, but a model to impose full-fledged communism without any transitory period. Later Stalinist policies were simply an outgrowth of this, and the starvation and executions of millions during Mao's great leap forward were based on the same initial model. Cuba never saw the widescale depopulation via forced famine, gulag, and executions that Russia and China did, but the political repression was (and continues to be in many ways) almost as bad.
The more you know.
There's my tangent post for the year.
Remember, the Romanovs had no idea how to run a state. Due to very little commerce, Russia had very little of a middle class, as opposed to mercantile and seafaring nations such as Spain and Britain. Lenin had very little to work with and the previous government (imperial) had treated the populace exceptionally bad by any standard. it was the harsh conditions under which the common folk lived under that eventually sparked the Revolution. Shooting demonstrating factory workers was apparently, as one would say, not cricket. After the civil war, where the West backed the Whites (who were using anti-Semitic propaganda to rally folk to their cause) and eventually got ousted, Lenin had very little to work with. He still introduced free health-care, education and social security, after a fashion. Also introducing for the first time history "proper" legal divorces and legalised abortions. Stalin's plan economy did work after a fashion to begin with too; they did defeat the mightiest army on Earth pretty much single-handedly a few years later.
As to the Romanovs, they did attempt a half-hearted series of reform just before the Revolution hit, but as they say, it was too little, too late to make much of a difference.
Stalin's plan economy did work after a fashion to begin with too; they did defeat the mightiest army on Earth pretty much single-handedly a few years later.
Only with massive foreign support to help him do that, plus the slave labor of tens of millions within the gulags, the russian winter, and sheer force of numbers pushed against the nazis (admittedly, the battle of Stalingrad was an amazing victory, even after stalin executed many of the best trained officers to purge czarist influence or potential rivals). The system was like a man on PCP, it does amazing things for a very brief moment all while destroying itself in the process.
Having known a man who spent 2 years in a german POW camp, and then 25 years in a gulag once he returned home, I have a hard time giving any sort of positive spin to that nightmare.
Yeah, I like that bit. Not that I want to comment too much on that, but could it just be that since Kennedy (you know, the JFK version) this fair country is effectively shut-off from the rest of the world by guess who? Now tell me, how should ANYTHING thrive there? It's essentially the Caribbean version of a country currently under the sway of *edited* ... you know, this is an American board and we don't want to get into bother by some ex-Cubans and the like.
-Interesting...So, it was JFK that continually censures the most basic freedoms of Cuban citizens? It was JFK that runs the Cuban Secret Police? It was JFK that caused Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and other NGOs to declare Cuba a violator of Human Rights? It was JFK that caused Fidel Castro to install himself as the permanent president of Cuba, until he no longer wanted the job?
-Might I repackage an old question?:
What sorts of politics do they teach over there?
BTW, cannot see anything Communist in a wood elven settlement within Realmspace ... of course, I have yet to see one in detail in print anyways.
-Look harder, then. Wood Elven settlements assign specific duties to individuals, where the community as a whole relies on those specific jobs/individuals for it's continued survival. So and so is the elder, and leader. So and so goes with so and so to hunt. So and so does such and such. No capitalistic tendencies whatsoever. As I said, this is communistic/communalistic.
Furthermore, it is quite easy to sit in a seminar office et al, working on "facts" from "entirely objective" books as opposed to having experience, as in: consciously experienced it all by oneself as well as reading the books. Now, don't get me wrong here, I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I have 17 years of United Germany experience on my back too and if you think Communism is bad or does not work, rest assured, you ain't seen nothing yet of how bad Capitalism works. It might be economically sound (sometimes), but if you look a bit deeper into it, you will see shortcomings left, right, and centre. These are my final words on this topic on here.
Only with massive foreign support to help him do that, plus the slave labor of tens of millions within the gulags, the russian winter, and sheer force of numbers pushed against the nazis (admittedly, the battle of Stalingrad was an amazing victory, even after stalin executed many of the best trained officers to purge czarist influence or potential rivals). The system was like a man on PCP, it does amazing things for a very brief moment all while destroying itself in the process.
Having known a man who spent 2 years in a german POW camp, and then 25 years in a gulag once he returned home, I have a hard time giving any sort of positive spin to that nightmare.
i'm not condoning what the Soviets did - but it did work. Stalin was an absolute nutjob and a nob-end. But
The lend-lease was critical, yes, so might've been premature about saying they did it single-handedly. But remember that the mass industrialisation that had taken place under Stalin and Lenin (Read: under communism); only the U.S. industry could produce more than the Russians. But the Second World War was a joint effort, the Norwegians for example sabotaged the only heavy water plant the Germans had at a critical point. if it hadn't been for that, historians and nuclear physicists agree - Germany would've been able to nuke London.
But at least up here in Norway, we don't really count the Americans or Brits as saviours at all, the Red Army drove the Wehrmacht out.
But i don't see Wood Elves as communists at all; perhaps socialists.
I prefer to see certain wood elven settlements as Libertarians.:P ;)
Maybe that was what caused the Crown Wars. The drow wanted to build a freeway, but the libertarian elves wouldn't sell their houses. And since the elven Constitution didn't have an article saying that the state can buy up private property for public use without the owner's consent, the elves said they didn't have to. As a result, the drow- who lived out in the suburbs, and who were tired of having to drive three hours to get to the city- went all ballistic and started killing the Libertarian elves. :P
Now, don't get me wrong here, I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I have 17 years of United Germany experience on my back too and if you think Communism is bad or does not work, rest assured, you ain't seen nothing yet of how bad Capitalism works.
-I never said that capitalism doesn't have it's shortcomings, too. Of course it does. Look at the Gini Index of any capitalist country. That aside, communism, as a political system, does not work. Invariably, it leads to the problems demonstrated in the Soviet Union, in China, in Cuba, and in the various Soviet Satalite States. When coupled with a seperate form of governance, with communism as the economic system, things are more viable, as demonstrated with these Elven settlements. There is no widespread poverty, and the people do not live in fear of their superiors.
And since the elven Constitution didn't have an article saying that the state can buy up private property for public use without the owner's consent, the elves said they didn't have to.
-Note that this was one of the first things the Vyshaanti Elves did to Aryvandaar's constitution when they came to power.
-Note that this was one of the first things the Vyshaanti Elves did to Aryvandaar's constitution when they came to power.
Seriously, or are you just having a go at me?
Seriously, or are you just having a go at me?
-That do you think? :P
-What do you think? :P
Is there any way that I can answer that question without looking like an idiot?
Is there any way that I can answer that question without looking like an idiot?
-Depends how you answer the question. ;)
-Depends how you answer the question. ;)
I plead the fifth. :P
I prefer the ever popular *kicks LK in the balls until he admits whatever perfidy he had in mind* solution...
-I don't...
LK ... just to keep you posted ... I still doubt your view on communism as a political & economical system, as well as your perception of wood elven society.
-Feel free to be wrong, then.
Is there any source you can name were we can look at a FR wood elven settlement and its political / economical system?
-Silver Shadows.
-Feel free to be wrong, then.
That is a good way to alienate people, you know.
-Silver Shadows.
Will have a look at that then.
That is a good way to alienate people, you know.
-Yep. Doesn't change the fact, however.
I suspect the world might come to an end if LK ever gave up on the occassional bit of flippancy...
-Maybe, maybe not.
-Yep. Doesn't change the fact, however.
*Agrees with the Hun... grudgingly... again*
Btw, think it was a few years ago when the U.N. wanted to remove the trade blockade on Cuba. 167 nations voted for removing the blockade, whereas 3 nations (U.S., israel and Marshall islands) didn't want it removed, therefore it stayed. Gotta love the Guvernator tbh - he needs his Cuban cigars.
Btw, think it was a few years ago when the U.N. wanted to remove the trade blockade on Cuba. 167 nations voted for removing the blockade, whereas 3 nations (U.S., israel and Marshall islands) didn't want it removed, therefore it stayed. Gotta love the Guvernator tbh - he needs his Cuban cigars.
-Thus the benefits of living in a unipolar society.
After all, if Toril is the homeworld of the Fey race
It isn't. The fey seem to have emigrated from the Feywild. Elves, on the other hand, were born from Corellon's blood during his battle with Gruumsh, fertilized by Sehanine's tears (if the myths are true - also, note that this makes Sehanine their "father" and Corellon their "mother"). It's not clear where this battle took place, but the elven race is said to have originated in the realm of Alfheim in Ysgard, so it might well have taken place in Ysgard before the Seldarine moved to Arborea and took the realm of Arvandor by force from the giant pantheon. Corellon seems to have placed the newborn elven race in Faerie, and they emigrated to the Realms and elsewhere from there.
Besides Stigger, I've learned that if you say something long enough and loud enough, it eventually becomes the truth. :P
And I still insist the episode of the Black Diamond took place on Toril (probably in the Hanya Maut Plateau), and that forced the Fey Creator race to abandon Toril for the Feywild. After many years, they decided to send some 'scouts' back and see if it was safe to return... hence the Green Elves that the Fey forced to re-locate to Toril near the beginning of the GHotR.
After the scouts reported back that it was once-again safe, they sent-in their shock troops to establish a beachead for the re-taking of their original homeworld (that was when the Eladrin showed-up).
The Elves (and Eladrin) didn't come settle Faerûn, they came to conquer it. Once they eliminated the Dragons and the Giants, they turned on each other, as a true predatory species would.
They are Locusts.....
Well, I interpret 'Fey Creator Race' as THE Fey race, but whatever.
Besides Stigger, I've learned that if you say something long enough and loud enough, it eventually becomes the truth. :P
And I still insist the episode of the Black Diamond took place on Toril (probably in the Hanya Maut Plateau), and that forced the Fey Creator race to abandon Toril for the Feywild. After many years, they decided to send some 'scouts' back and see if it was safe to return... hence the Green Elves that the Fey forced to re-locate to Toril near the beginning of the GHotR.
After the scouts reported back that it was once-again safe, they sent-in their shock troops to establish a beachead for the re-taking of their original homeworld (that was when the Eladrin showed-up).
The Elves (and Eladrin) didn't come settle Faerûn, they came to conquer it. Once they eliminated the Dragons and the Giants, they turned on each other, as a true predatory species would.
They are Locusts.....
I envisioned something similar in my own game, but I ignored the High Elves=Eladrin change. The elves of old remain elves in my 4E game, and the Eladrin remain outsiders; the Feywild is the original homeplace of both. I very much pictured the High Elves of the Feywild as imperialists
wishing to expand their domain (with the Green Elves of the Feywild as pacifists
, reluctant to invade a world which didn't mean them ill). The High Elves managed to make advances in their occupation, but eventually their unity split into factions with differing objectives. This soon turned to infighting, and their foothold on Toril fragmented. The Green Elves soon became disillusioned with the chaos within the ranks of their High kin. Some elves tried to flee back to the Feywild or another friendly plane while the rest struggled with each other. Might not sound like it goes against established lore TOO much, but I'm still working on the specifics.:P
-Don't know which point you were addressing, but, yes, Communism as a governmental system fails, and, yes, Elven communities are fairly communistic.
I always considered dwarves to be the communists of DnD with the "collective/clan before the individual" outlook and their lawful alignments, while elves were the opposite(capitalists?;)) with their individualistic outlook and chaotic alignment.
I always considered dwarves to be the communists of DnD with the "collective/clan before the individual" outlook and their lawful alignments, while elves were the opposite(capitalists?;)) with their individualistic outlook and chaotic alignment.
Well, technically speaking, communism is a liberal political alignment. It's considered the counter-balance to the conservative nature of fascism. It's been mentioned time and time again that "Lawful" is closer to conservative and "Chaotic" closer to liberal. It's possible to have conservative communists, but they are vastly outnumbered by their liberal kith. At least, this is speaking from my college government classes. It has been some years since then, so maybe my knowledge is considered outdated, I must admit.
As for the dwarves, I've always seen them as more like the clans of olde Scotland or feudal Japan. Devotion to one's clan balanced with devotion to the supreme leader, but with the vulnerabilities which allow discord and strife to break out. I can see your point, but then it seems like Kara-Tur, which is lawful and puts the whole before the individual, would be communist, which it isn't. This is just my opinion of course.
Capitalism is an economic system, not a social one - our social one would be democracy.
Both of which are lies - Capitalism = greed and control by the wealthy, and democracy = control by those with more 'face time' (once again, the wealthy).
Not that there is a better system out there... they all suck. Ultimate power corrupts, ultimately.
I think caveman had a good system. They killed something and took their stuff.
As to lawful/chaotic... I don't think conservative/liberal really synch up that well with them myself. My own view of conservative/liberal is that they're actually misnomers in current context for progressive and regressive societal elements. Conservatism as a social system just fails on a lot of levels due to that regressive tendency, since history shows us that progressive behaviors tend to lead to the larger rewards, while regressive behaviors are mostly rooted in fear of change and clinging to the status quo to maintain societal position, regardless of the cost to the whole. Eventually, the regressive elements get left behind...
While law and chaos, in and of themselves, are capable of regressive and progressive influence and elements. Law can evolve and change towards ever more efficient and stable forms, while chaos does something similar, just in a less organized and deliberate fashion. Selective breeding versus genetic crapshoots on a societal level I guess would be a decent, if somewhat inaccurate, way of putting it.
As to lawful/chaotic... I don't think conservative/liberal really synch up that well with them myself. My own view of conservative/liberal is that they're actually misnomers in current context for progressive and regressive societal elements.
To be honest, I don't think it's a good analogy either. I actually meant it in the case of the dwarves; the conservative dwarves are mostly lawful, and those few dwarves who promote liberalism and change are usually chaotic. I should have made that clearer, sorry.
Conservatism as a social system just fails on a lot of levels due to that regressive tendency, since history shows us that progressive behaviors tend to lead to the larger rewards, while regressive behaviors are mostly rooted in fear of change and clinging to the status quo to maintain societal position, regardless of the cost to the whole. Eventually, the regressive elements get left behind...
I don't really disagree with you, but I'd argue that conservatism is not necessarily a detriment (in certain cases). Some traditions/policies/customs of the past actually work long after they're established, and only need improvement as the times change, an updating instead of a complete overhaul. Sometimes an overhaul is promoted that is unnecessary, and is potentially inferior to the current tradition/policy/custom. Politically, I'm a moderate; I have views which would be called in the political sphere "liberal", others which would be dubbed "conservative", and I don't favor either side over the other (the political affiliations, not the issues). I'm progressive, but I don't support every single position that is deemed liberal. Sometimes change isn't the best way to progress in the long run. At least, that's just how I feel.
But I have the feeling we're getting off-topic (I can tell I am). So to make a course correction...
I agree with Markus. Araushnee was butt-ugly, and resented the good looks of the other Seldarine members. So to get her revenge, she turned against them, and incited Gruumsh to cut up Corellon's pretty face.
Which of course ties in nicely with the elves, the most ruthless of species on Faerun, who can always be counted on to do whatever is in their own best interest, rather than what is in the best interests of the whole.
My own view is that Araushnee was quite beautiful, and that Corellon was taken with her, but eventually began to deride her and did his best to diminish her because she threatened his position as the fairest of the Seldarine, something he could not allow to happen, so he began pushing her towards open rebellion, knowing full well that the rest of the Seldarine would not dare move aginst him, and forcing Araushnee to look outside of that body for allies against his perfidy and manipulations. Enter Gruumsh...
My own view is that Araushnee was quite beautiful, and that Corellon was taken with her, but eventually began to deride her and did his best to diminish her because she threatened his position as the fairest of the Seldarine, something he could not allow to happen, so he began pushing her towards open rebellion, knowing full well that the rest of the Seldarine would not dare move aginst him, and forcing Araushnee to look outside of that body for allies against his perfidy and manipulations. Enter Gruumsh...
Of course! Why didn't I see it before? No wonder the mortal elves are the biggest parasites on the planet. Their gods are the most vile entities in the cosmos. Do their foul ways know no limits?
;)
Personally I think she was just jealous he was the creator of the elves. Remember, she calls the drow her children.
Araushnee tried to kill Corellon because he was a better woman than she'll ever be. :P
Which is why I hate all those stupid arguements that try to paint Lolth as some feminist figure and Corellon as this chauvinist male pig, as they all cheerfully forget that Corellon is 'him'self female as well as male. But then I'm reminded of the blog post I ran across once proposing the Lolth-as-feminist-figure thing, and someone in the comments going on about how much they hate Corellon because of how he acted in the Forgotten Realms comic. You know, the one Labelas Enoreth was in and Corellon wasn't? Yeeeeeah. Same kind of 'I will see only what I want to see' ignoring of things.
I dislike Sehanine/Angharradh for much the same reasons. Corellon doesn't need a sodding wife, any more than she would need a husband. They always just come across as a hamfisted attempt to clean Corellon up for the kiddies, or rather their parents, who might take offense at having a god be both sexes. :P Kind of like the whole oh no we can't have demons or devils or angels, so have some tanar'ri, baatezu and aasimon thing.
Poor Corellon. He gave her his love and whatever she wanted, but she turned out to be a nasty petty vile little twerp who couldn't recognize the true value and beauty of what she had, and she turned on her and broke his heart.
He should have just killed her, really, but it was too kind and merciful for that.The chaotic frivolous frolick-in-the-forest elves are baaaad;)
Which is why I hate all those stupid arguements that try to paint Lolth as some feminist figure and Corellon as this chauvinist male pig, as they all cheerfully forget that Corellon is 'him'self female as well as male. But then I'm reminded of the blog post I ran across once proposing the Lolth-as-feminist-figure thing, and someone in the comments going on about how much they hate Corellon because of how he acted in the Forgotten Realms comic. You know, the one Labelas Enoreth was in and Corellon wasn't? Yeeeeeah. Same kind of 'I will see only what I want to see' ignoring of things.
Even though I'm a man (with waning sympathy for neo-feminism), I don't much mind feminists who see Lolth as a symbol of feminine freedom and independence. I do, however, start to frown when I see them start to blow Lolth's deeds out of proportion, much like how the hardcore neo-feminists I've encountered have ruined Lilith. But yeah, I agree 100% on the faulty perception that Corellon is a chauvinist. He really didn't do anything to oppress or upset Lolth, and yet she turns traitor. (And incidentally, if any of the feminists on this board disagree with me, remember that this is just my opinion and I mean no disrespect).
I dislike Sehanine/Angharradh for much the same reasons. Corellon doesn't need a sodding wife, any more than she would need a husband. They always just come across as a hamfisted attempt to clean Corellon up for the kiddies, or rather their parents, who might take offense at having a god be both sexes. :P Kind of like the whole oh no we can't have demons or devils or angels, so have some tanar'ri, baatezu and aasimon thing.
Hasn't it been said in some previous lore (not necessarily FR) that Corellon enjoys the company of the other Seldarine members from time to time (or has in the past)? And yeah, it doesn't help that most parents (in America at least) jump to conclusions the minute they see their kids playing a game with devils in it. Oddly enough, the players almost always fight and slay the devils; it's very rare they'll actually storm the gates of the heavens and help Bel's vanguard wreak havoc. Even if they did, it's just a game (which most parents don't remember). If you come home to find your kid dripping in blood with several small animals lying dead at his feet and chanting Pazuzu's name, THEN freak out.
Poor Corellon. He gave her his love and whatever she wanted, but she turned out to be a nasty petty vile little twerp who couldn't recognize the true value and beauty of what she had, and she turned on her and broke his heart.
I think he probably regrets not killing her simply because he's an elven god - a bloodthirsty harbinger of annihilation, who spreads woe and chaos wherever his spawn go.:P
So not true... otherwise I'd probably be single by now. :D
Same goes for me. My wife and I have only been married for a little over two years now, but we've been together since we were both fourteen (nearly half our lives), and now we have a baby. She better not pull an Araushnee on me now!:D
Just make sure if you have a second kid to not dote on one to the point where the other gets so jealous and ****** at you he's perfectly willing to help kill you to get ahead. Poor Vhaeraun. Daddy doted too much on his sister, mommy corrupted him *and* his son, and eventually his own sister killed him. HE JUST WANTED TO BE LOVED WAS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK.
And just to make this post on-topic, I think it would have been interesting had Corellon and Araushnee a third child during the upheaval. One goes with mommy dearest, one goes with daddy, and the third's stuck in the middle, either playing both against each other or perhaps distancing him/herself from both.
So not true... otherwise I'd probably be single by now. :D
Well stigg, we all know how great you are so...:P
If you're one of those less fortunate types, disregard this post. :P
:D
Lolth is a female pure and simple. They always turn on you for a better deal.:P
Now YOU learn fast, Grasshopper. :D
So not true... otherwise I'd probably be single by now. :D
She simply hasn't decided to 'upgrade' yet.
Her 'old model' is obviously still functioning properly. The minute she finds one with 'better features', or is just 'shineier' (as in, NEWER), you'll be out the door.
Woman NEVER stop shopping... you'll do... for now....
Wait 'till your forty, have a paunch, and realizes she can take all your stuff, still get supported by you, and have the twenty-year old boyfriend.
Its called the 'OJ-Hulk' syndrome. ;)
And with 'Cougars' being very 'IN' right now, its happening to more guys then I care to know about.
-So, about Araushnee...
The ONLY good member of the Seldarine. She recognized Corellon's perfidy, and tried to stop him.
Long Live St. Lolth, Angelic Queen of Arcahnids!!!
-So, about Araushnee...
I hear Vhaeraun wasn't really Corellon's child. Poor Corellon. Cuckolded b_____d.:P
Poor Mask... can you imagine being breastfed by Shar...
Then again, Vhaeraun didn't have it so good either... talk about your disfunctional families...
can you imagine being breastfed by Shar...
.
Yes. Yes, I can.
Poor Mask... can you imagine being breastfed by Shar.
Well, since you put the image in my mind, let's see:
:D
Now YOU learn fast, Grasshopper. :D
I learned that a long-long time ago.:P
Show
Never trust something that bleeds for a week and doesn't die.
I learned that a long-long time ago.:PShowNever trust something that bleeds for a week and doesn't die.
She simply hasn't decided to 'upgrade' yet.
Her 'old model' is obviously still functioning properly. The minute she finds one with 'better features', or is just 'shineier' (as in, NEWER), you'll be out the door.
Woman NEVER stop shopping... you'll do... for now....
Wait 'till your forty, have a paunch, and realizes she can take all your stuff, still get supported by you, and have the twenty-year old boyfriend.
Its called the 'OJ-Hulk' syndrome. ;)
And with 'Cougars' being very 'IN' right now, its happening to more guys then I care to know about.
Paunch? Hah, not likely... I'm far too vain to allow that to ever happen. And I'm younger than she is anyway. And she hates shopping, which is why I end up doing most of it.
Now I'm a fat, old guy. crap happens.
Obviously you already did the 'Couger thing'. :P
Unless it was a simple matter of 'cradle-robbing' on her part.
Anyway, being younger is smart... hadn't thought of that...
Strangely enough, I've actually been thinking about getting re-married lately. I just need to save-up enough for a foreign trip...
The one thing I learned is too make sure they can't speak English. :D
Ummmm... you know... like Elves... they don't speak English...
Ergo, Corellon followed my advice. ;)
It will be alright, someday we'll be able to bring you back to sanity and the blessed light of Corellon's grace and love. 
It will take time, but I won't give up hope that you may one day see the error of your ways and repent your vile sacreligious blasphemy. dutch: Angharradh supposedly only formed after Araushnee attacked Corellon, but then again they've since claimed that all three of her component goddesses never existed.
So who knows anymore. :P (And Rillifane has disappeared. And yet we still have Shevarash,
Its the ugly truth about the elves coming out... repent sinner, and forsake those point-eared devils before its too late... :P
Unicorn barbecue tonight in the Endless Caverns.
:evillaugh
I think a nice explenation to why Araushnee became jealous is that she saw Corellons gift, her own darkskinned elven race, as a slight. Corellon had already "spontaneaously" begotten his fairskinned mortal children with his sister Sehanine, and explained it away that he really needed his sister in his most desperate moment when struggling against Gruumsh. Araushnee propably was already expecting her husband would have created these mortal toys with her first, as she was his chosen queen, not that pale teary eyed flighty sister of hers. Corellon had been unfaithfull in her eyes.
Could be that Araushnee knew Corellon was being fooled by a goddes not even fully aligned to the Seldarine. Sehanine a.k.a Selune never revealed to Corellon she had a hand in divining prophesies heretic to the views shared by the Seldarine. Sehanine was known to speak in clouded mysteries, nothing like the exact facts contained in the destinies Araushnee the weaver could see. The strife between the two goddeses sharing the counselling role worked as a competetive grounds between the two when Corellon needed counsel.
So its that easy tramp Sehanine's fault for geting into Araushnee's personal space!
The new core version mixes it up even more by having Lolth and Sehanine being sisters. And this could be true even in the Realms if you want, existing as one of the secrets of the seven mysteries of Selune/Sehanine.
Let's say she foresaw the death of Eilistraee if she did not at least make the attempt to overthrow Corellon. If it was -your- child, and the only way you could save the life of that child was to kill another individual who you know will be responsible (directly or indirectly) of that child's death in the future? Especially if you saw no other way. Of course you would. You'd sacrifice yourself to save your child, even if there is only a slim chance you'd get away with it.
So let's just say Araushnee foresaw something along those lines. If she didn't do what she did, something bad would have happened. Araushnee was not evil, and thus it makes little sense for her to take her actions in any other context.
So, Araushnee fails to kill / overthrow Corellon. She is then stripped of her divinity and all that makes her elven. A horrific punishment in and of itself. Yet, to make matters worse she was transformed and twisted, and then cast down into the Abyss.
I'd say that Araushnee was not evil, but the Abyss corrupted her and turned her into Lolth. That her actions were not based upon blind ambition... and the story we get is written in a highly slanted manner in favor of Corellon and the other deities.
History is rarely so clean cut.
She is then stripped of her divinity and all that makes her elven. A horrific punishment in and of itself. Yet, to make matters worse she was transformed and twisted
Sounds like a certain villain from the best CRPG ever released.
Carbon Dragon is right. It's all a matter of perspective. We know that Araushnee was the goddess of destiny and could see the future. Perhaps she saw her banishment as inevitable, something that she could not avoid unless she overthrew Corellon. Perhaps she saw something bad happening to the dark elves or one of her children if she didn't make the attempt.
Let's say she foresaw the death of Eilistraee if she did not at least make the attempt to overthrow Corellon. If it was -your- child, and the only way you could save the life of that child was to kill another individual who you know will be responsible (directly or indirectly) of that child's death in the future? Especially if you saw no other way. Of course you would. You'd sacrifice yourself to save your child, even if there is only a slim chance you'd get away with it.
So let's just say Araushnee foresaw something along those lines. If she didn't do what she did, something bad would have happened. Araushnee was not evil, and thus it makes little sense for her to take her actions in any other context.
So, Araushnee fails to kill / overthrow Corellon. She is then stripped of her divinity and all that makes her elven. A horrific punishment in and of itself. Yet, to make matters worse she was transformed and twisted, and then cast down into the Abyss.
I'd say that Araushnee was not evil, but the Abyss corrupted her and turned her into Lolth. That her actions were not based upon blind ambition... and the story we get is written in a highly slanted manner in favor of Corellon and the other deities.
History is rarely so clean cut.
In all fairness, Lolth has indoctrinated many drow (not just her priestesses) to believe that the Seldarine ganged up on her and attacked her, forcing her to flee her home, and that she had done nothing to move against or offend them. Her kin were just too fiendish, and grew jealous of her. So I'd say the history of the loser is often no more valuable than that written by the winner. Not disagreeing with you, just saying.
In all fairness, Lolth has indoctrinated many drow (not just her priestesses) to believe that the Seldarine ganged up on her and attacked her, forcing her to flee her home, and that she had done nothing to move offend them. Her kin were just too fiendish, and grew jealous of her. So I'd say the history of the loser is often no more valuable than that written by the winner. Not disagreeing with you, just saying.
-Indeed, we have both sides. Looking at it from a metagame viewpoint, as fans of the Forgotten Realms, those sources confirm the general story as true, with Lolth being Chaotic Evil, with the truth being told, etc.
Both sides paint themselves as the blameless victim, and accuse the other of being the bad guy. The two stories are extremely different, yet travel along a similar theme.
I'd no more believe Corellon's side of the story than Lolth's. They both have reasons to lie, and they're both chaotic. Good or evil has little to do with it - good can lie, and does so often, and chaotic individuals are more likely to lie than lawful ones.
However, what we do know is that Araushnee was not evil until she became Lolth. As Araushnee she was Chaotic Neutral. She was also the deity of destiny, known for having the ability to predict the future. What would prompt her to turn against Corellon? She had to have some idea of how events would turn out, having the powers that she had, and thus if you assume that Araushnee had an ounce of intelligence in her head, she would not have acted the way she did without good reason.
That does not justify her actions, but rather gives the contextual background for the reason she performed them.
Well, I'm not saying Lolth's version is any more true. However, it should be pretty clear that both stories are biased, and the truth likely lays somewhere in the middle.
Both sides paint themselves as the blameless victim, and accuse the other of being the bad guy. The two stories are extremely different, yet travel along a similar theme.
Then we're on the same page.
I'd no more believe Corellon's side of the story than Lolth's. They both have reasons to lie, and they're both chaotic. Good or evil has little to do with it - good can lie, and does so often, and chaotic individuals are more likely to lie than lawful ones.
Well, I wouldn't believe Corellon's side of the story because he's a diabolic elven deity, and is therefore as trustworthy as Cyric when it comes to "honesty".:P But I still agree with your points.
However, what we do know is that Araushnee was not evil until she became Lolth. As Araushnee she was Chaotic Neutral. She was also the deity of destiny, known for having the ability to predict the future. What would prompt her to turn against Corellon? She had to have some idea of how events would turn out, having the powers that she had, and thus if you assume that Araushnee had an ounce of intelligence in her head, she would not have acted the way she did without good reason.
Savras had those powers too. A lot good they did for that poor sod.
Savras had those powers too. A lot good they did for that poor sod.
Yes, but the difference between what happened to Savras and what happened with Araushnee is HUGE. Savras had things HAPPEN TO HIM. Things outside of his normal control. It is possible, under 3E at least, that another deity of greater power (virtually every deity since he was only a minor demigod) could block his portfolio sense.
Araushnee on the other hand, is the one that took the actions against Corellon. To assume that her situation was similar to Savras would be silly, because under those circumstances... why would she have acted at all? Sure, it is possible that she saw the possibility of a different outcome than the one that took place, and that she failed in whatever she attempted.
My theory is, since she was also the deity of dark elves, that she saw Corellon participating in their banishment. The dark elves were like her children, and they were under her protection. They were at war, and had been at war, for a long time with the other elven races of the Seldarine. Imagine what would have happened if Araushnee had done nothing, and the Dark Elves were punished as they were by Corellon and his High Mages?
Thus, it is somewhat poetic justice that in the end, Araushnee was likewise transformed and cast down, just like her mortal servants. Although, I'd imagine that is not what Araushnee intended... or perhaps it was... who can say? In either event, we know for a fact, canonically, that she was neither insane nor evil until she became Lolth.
She may have been ambitious, but there is a difference between ambition and wanting to kill the guy you supposedly have feelings for, seemingly just out of the blue.
The only thing Corellon's guilty of is being blinded by love and of not killing her when he had the chance.
I think killing her might have actually been more merciful than what happened. So, if you want to use Corellon's actions as an example of his great virtue, go ahead. :P She was stripped of everything that made her who she was, cast down, exiled, transformed into a hideous monster, and tossed into the Abyss... transformed into a demon. It is likely that Corellon thought the other demons would eventually kill her, so he wouldn't have to sully his own hands.
Yet, in the end, she managed to claw her way back to divinity, secure the worship of virtually an entire race of elves, and is likely solely responsible for keeping the Drow from destroying themselves and dying out in the Underdark. Thus, Corellon's actions are indirectly responsible for every drow raid or evil deed done against the surface - especially against other elves. Had he mercifully killed Araushnee, the Drow might have died off, because Lolth would not have existed to unite them. :P
The punishment Corellon placed upon Araushnee was the worst possible punishment that could ever be placed upon an elf, and I'd imagine the same is most definitely true of an elven deity. Most elves would have gladly chosen death. So, no, there was no mercy there. ;)
Thus, in the end, it was Corellon who created Lolth in all of her monstrous glory.
Imagine what would have happened if Araushnee had done nothing, and the Dark Elves were punished as they were by Corellon and his High Mages?
Which happened long after she had become Lolth and partially because some of the dark elves had turned to evil gods like, say, Lolth.
Thus, it is somewhat poetic justice that in the end, Araushnee was likewise transformed and cast down, just like her mortal servants. Although, I'd imagine that is not what Araushnee intended... or perhaps it was... who can say? In either event, we know for a fact, canonically, that she was neither insane nor evil until she became Lolth.
You have the order wrong, there, and where exactly do we 'canonically' know for a 'fact' that she was neither evil or insane until *after* she was banished? Plotting with your husband's enemies to have him killed so you can take his place is Evil and requires a fair amount of going off the deep end to think that it's even remotely a good idea.
She may have been ambitious, but there is a difference between ambition and wanting to kill the guy you supposedly have feelings for, seemingly just out of the blue.
Except she DID want to kill the guy she supposedly had feelings for, seemingly just out of the blue, because of her ambitions and her mad views that there was no way to achieve what she wanted short of, you know, killing her own husband because she wanted his job.
I think killing her might have actually been more merciful than what happened. So, if you want to use Corellon's actions as an example of his great virtue, go ahead. :P She was stripped of everything that made her who she was, cast down, exiled, transformed into a hideous monster, and tossed into the Abyss... transformed into a demon. It is likely that Corellon thought the other demons would eventually kill her, so he wouldn't have to sully his own hands.
Or wasn't able to bring himself to kill the woman that he had until moments before trusted implicitly and loved, and still loved despite her betrayal.
Yet, in the end, she managed to claw her way back to divinity, secure the worship of virtually an entire race of elves, and is likely solely responsible for keeping the Drow from destroying themselves and dying out in the Underdark. Thus, Corellon's actions are indirectly responsible for every drow raid or evil deed done against the surface - especially against other elves. Had he mercifully killed Araushnee, the Drow might have died off, because Lolth would not have existed to unite them. :P
And if Kethryllia Amarillis hadn't gone to the Abyss to rescue her boytoy, Lolth might not have ever found out about Toril, if Eilistraee and her church hadn't opposed Vhaeraun's worship he might have become and remained the primary evil dark elven god on Toril, etc etc. Whatifs are cute but it's hardly solely Corellon's fault.
The punishment Corellon placed upon Araushnee was the worst possible punishment that could ever be placed upon an elf, and I'd imagine the same is most definitely true of an elven deity. Most elves would have gladly chosen death. So, no, there was no mercy there. ;)
By the time she'd gotten to the point of conspiring with Corellon's enemies to get him killed and corrupting her own son to help her with her madness, she sure as hell wasn't even remotely Elven anymore. :P
An arguement in fact can be made that she never was, and neither is/was Corellon, since they're *gods* and not mortals, soap operas aside. :P
Thus, in the end, it was Corellon who created Lolth in all of her monstrous glory.
Nope, the person at the end of the chain of fingerpointing is perfectly clear, and it ain't Corellon. It's the Big L herself. Araushnee, through her descent into evil and madness, brought it on her own sodding self. She has nothing and no one to blame but herself and her own evil ambitions.
Which happened long after she had become Lolth and partially because some of the dark elves had turned to evil gods like, say, Lolth.
You have the order wrong, there, and where exactly do we 'canonically' know for a 'fact' that she was neither evil or insane until *after* she was banished? Plotting with your husband's enemies to have him killed so you can take his place is Evil and requires a fair amount of going off the deep end to think that it's even remotely a good idea.
Except she DID want to kill the guy she supposedly had feelings for, seemingly just out of the blue, because of her ambitions and her mad views that there was no way to achieve what she wanted short of, you know, killing her own husband because she wanted his job.
Yes, Lolth fell long before the Crown Wars. I checked GHotR, and it happened a long while before them. :P I thought it happened closer together. However, the core of what I was saying still stands. I am not saying that it is -fact- but rather a -possibility-. Araushnee was the goddess of destiny, and dark elves. She had the ability to see the future. Perhaps, she foresaw some inevitable fate to befall the Dark Elves and thus acted against Corellon to prevent it.
What she saw though, is irrelevant. What matters is -why- she acted. Does it make sense, even in the most whacked out mind, for Araushnee to try and kill Corellon... at least without a good reason? One would assume that they had strong feelings for one another. Thus, you don't simply murder what is more-or-less your husband simply because you both happen to work at the same company and he is higher up on the ladder than you. "I want a promotion. My husband stands in the way. Therefore I must kill him."
Of course, the Seldarine are going to say, "Oh, yes Araushnee was evil all along, she was a horrible person who did horrible things, we're all victims of her evil, and we're just glad we were able to defeat her." That's their side of the story. Lolth has a different side. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, and is more complex than either side proclaims.
Or wasn't able to bring himself to kill the woman that he had until moments before trusted implicitly and loved, and still loved despite her betrayal.
So he loved her so much he decided to sentence her to a fate worse than death? What he did was way worse than killing her.
And if Kethryllia Amarillis hadn't gone to the Abyss to rescue her boytoy, Lolth might not have ever found out about Toril, if Eilistraee and her church hadn't opposed Vhaeraun's worship he might have become and remained the primary evil dark elven god on Toril, etc etc. Whatifs are cute but it's hardly solely Corellon's fault.
I'm glad that you have admitted that Corellon bares some measure of responsibility for the drow's actions. :P
By the time she'd gotten to the point of conspiring with Corellon's enemies to get him killed and corrupting her own son to help her with her madness, she sure as hell wasn't even remotely Elven anymore. :P
An argument in fact can be made that she never was, and neither is/was Corellon, since they're *gods* and not mortals, soap operas aside. :P
One might assume that, being stripped of everything that made you who you were, transformed into a monster, and cast down into the abyss to more-or-less die is a fate worse than death. :P Seriously, what do you think Corellon intended to happen to her down in the Abyss? Either he wanted her to become a powerful demon queen, and turn the elves against him, or he wanted her to die at the hands of the other demons. It is either one or the other. :P
Nope, the person at the end of the chain of fingerpointing is perfectly clear, and it ain't Corellon. It's the Big L herself. Araushnee, through her descent into evil and madness, brought it on her own sodding self. She has nothing and no one to blame but herself and her own evil ambitions.
Of course Araushnee bares part of the blame, even a significant part, perhaps the majority. That's not the point. The point that is being made is that Araushnee's actions don't make sense if you go by the story told by the Seldarine.
According to their story, Araushnee was more-or-less an evil snake amidst an otherwise perfect garden. She deceived them all for perhaps hundreds or thousands of years, managed to carry on a seemingly successful relationship with the leader of the pantheon, and then suddenly - one day - it was all revealed to be a farce. Thus, the Seldarine are innocent victims in all of it.
Lolth's story is basically that she did what she did because the Seldarine were out to get her, blah blah blah. She's the victim.
Both sides can be victims. What matters here, the point being made, is that Araushnee would not have taken the actions that she did without a good reason. Thus, it logically makes sense, considering the fact that she was the deity of destiny, that she was acting in accordance with some larger goal.
After all, why would anyone simply believe the Seldarine? Because they said so, they have good alignments, and therefore must be telling the truth? That Lolth must be lying because she's evil? That Lolth is biased because she's evil, and the Seldarine are not biased because they are good? That neither side has nothing to hide, no reason to shade the facts?
Yes, but the difference between what happened to Savras and what happened with Araushnee is HUGE. Savras had things HAPPEN TO HIM. Things outside of his normal control. It is possible, under 3E at least, that another deity of greater power (virtually every deity since he was only a minor demigod) could block his portfolio sense.
Araushnee on the other hand, is the one that took the actions against Corellon. To assume that her situation was similar to Savras would be silly, because under those circumstances... why would she have acted at all? Sure, it is possible that she saw the possibility of a different outcome than the one that took place, and that she failed in whatever she attempted.
I never said their situations were similar, just their powers. You took my words a great deal further than I had intended them to be taken;)
Maybe Lolth just didn't like Mondays. :P
As for what Corellon thought would happen to Lolth, he probably thought she'd just go be a perfectly normal demon like most demons are, rather than that she would try to do anything.
And again, what would be horror to an elf is irrelevant, Lolth wasn't even remotely elven at that point, and again, goddess, arguably never was. Corellon isn't an elf either. He's also a greater god, so his thought processes probably aren't anything we can even remotely figure out. :P We don't know what level Araushnee was, but probably Lesser at least and quite possibly Intermediate, like much of the rest of the Seldarine. She's not going to be that comprehensible to mortal minds either, so who knows what kind of nutcase-ery she would have been capable of. :P
Though you also have the possibility of, the woman he loved and trusted just tried to sodding murder him and pin the blame on his beloved daughter, he was consequently ****** and wanted to do the worst thing he could think of to her. 'Good' doesn't necessarily mean 'merciful', especially not on the Chaotic side of things, and especially when your beloved just tried to off you to take your job.
But, again, god, greater god at that, who the hell knows what he was thinking. :P
And, again, yes, Corellon is guilty perhaps of not just running the witch through with Sahandrian a few dozen times until she stopped twitching, but gods sure as hell don't know everything, so it's a safe bet that he had no idea that what would turn out to happen would happen. :P
Sorry. :P It was just the way I read it, I thought you were trying to say their situations were comparable.
Nai_Calus-
I think you're confusing Araushnee with Lolth. In my mind, these are two separate beings. Everything that made Araushnee who she was was stripped away, transformed into a mysterious demon, and cast down into the Abyss. That was the birth of Lolth, but they are in no way the same individual. To believe that they are, you'd also have to believe that Corellon -loved- Lolth, and that Lolth (who IS insane) was able to pull the wool over his eyes for perhaps THOUSANDS of years. That either makes Lolth the most cunning and manipulative deity ever, or the Seldarine the most stupid and blind.
You make the assumption that Araushnee was insane and evil, simply because Lolth is insane and evil. Yet, I say that Araushnee was neither, but those things did happen after she was transformed into Lolth.
If Araushnee was so whacked out and evil while sleeping with Corellon, then what is his justification for keeping her so close, knowing that she'd be a threat to the Seldarine? Why did he place trust in her? If she was insane, but not yet evil, how could Corellon - or any of the other Seldarine - never take notice? Why would they do nothing to help her?
And if you want to play the insanity card, then you know - that is also a justification for Araushnee's actions not being her own. ;) That just makes her a victim of a mental condition outside of her control, like someone with paranoid schizophrenia. Thus, Corellon was essentially beating the crap out of, and doing harm to, an obviously mentally ill individual. Does that still make him good? :P
After she was cast down into the Abyss, stripped of everything that made her who she was, and transformed into a monstrous demon at the hands of Corellon... he thought what, exactly? That it was an act of mercy -not- to kill her? You said that he expected her to go be a "perfectly normal demon". Why is that in anyway shape or form a *good* thing? ;) Again, I have trouble seeing Corellon's mercy, kindness or goodness here in his actions.
And whether or not Araushnee was an elf or not is irrelevant. I don't see why she wouldn't be considered Elven, or at least the deity equivalent of Elven. Most wouldn't say that Gruumsh isn't the deity equivalent of an Orc. The point remains: Corellon stripped her of everything that made her who she was, including her divinity, transformed her into a monstrous demon, and cast her down into the Abyss. Again, where is the good or mercy in there? ;)
And, again, yes, Corellon is guilty perhaps of not just running the witch through with Sahandrian a few dozen times until she stopped twitching, but gods sure as hell don't know everything, so it's a safe bet that he had no idea that what would turn out to happen would happen.
A convenient excuse. :P
I still say he tossed her into the Abyss, believing that she'd be ripped apart by the other demons, thus keeping his hands clean. Stripping her of her divinity was justified, but transforming her into a monstrous demon and everything that made her who she was was just vindictive. ;)
If Corellon had truly loved her, and continued to love her even after what she had done, he would have stripped her of her divinity (thus transforming her into just a really powerful but non-threatening arch-fey like creature), and then imprisoning her until he found a way to cure her of her insanity. (Since you believe she was insane before she became Lolth.)
LordManshoon-
Sorry. :P It was just the way I read it, I thought you were trying to say their situations were comparable.
No apologies necessary.
Looking back, I can easily see why many people would read my statement and believe the same. I need to befriend the edit button more.:DI think you're confusing Araushnee with Lolth. In my mind, these are two separate beings. Everything that made Araushnee who she was was stripped away, transformed into a mysterious demon, and cast down into the Abyss. That was the birth of Lolth, but they are in no way the same individual. To believe that they are, you'd also have to believe that Corellon -loved- Lolth, and that Lolth (who IS insane) was able to pull the wool over his eyes for perhaps THOUSANDS of years. That either makes Lolth the most cunning and manipulative deity ever, or the Seldarine the most stupid and blind.
-You can't say that, being as that Lolth/Araushnee are/were the same individual. If a person has a change of heart, or suffers some kind of physical problem that changes their personality (like Alzheimer's, for example), they're still the same person. Corellon Larethian perverted Araushnee's form to match that of her evil, cunning, scheming ways, but didn't "replace" Araushnee with Lolth. Lolth, based on the only source knowledge we have of her as Araushnee, Evermeet: Island of Elves, clearly remembered her life as Araushnee.
-Corellon Larethian loved Araushnee, and she loved him back, until her own grand designs, opportunity, and greed led her to betray him, for her own self-gain. Being transformed, and choosing to re-anoint herself 'Lolth', she was still the being who was Araushnee, but with a completely different lease on life, due to the events that transpired between her and the rest of the Seldarine.
-You can't say that, being as that Lolth/Araushnee are/were the same individual. If a person has a change of heart, or suffers some kind of physical problem that changes their personality (like Alzheimer's, for example), they're still the same person. Corellon Larethian perverted Araushnee's form to match that of her evil, cunning, scheming ways, but didn't "replace" Araushnee with Lolth. Lolth, based on the only source knowledge we have of her as Araushnee, Evermeet: Island of Elves, clearly remembered her life as Araushnee.
I don't disagree with this, but you are misunderstanding my point. I was not saying that they were two individuals physically, or that somehow Lolth forgot her past as Araushnee.
No, what I am saying is that after Araushnee was transformed into a monstrous demon, and cast down into the Abyss, that she changed - her personality changed. Her way of looking at the world changed. Everything that made Araushnee who she was - that was taken away by Corellon - and the personality that was Lolth grew to replace it.
It could be looked at as someone with some type of mental disorder in which they have multiple personalities, except in this case, one personality was "killed" and another took over - with all the memories of the former personalities past. That new personality is -not- the same person as the old personality. Just because they may share the physical form of the same body, does not mean that they are the same emotionally or mentally.
To believe that Lolth was always the way that she currently is - insane and evil - you would also have to believe that Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine, for thousands of years, never noticed it. You'd have to say that Corellon was able to carry on a relationship with Lolth for a VERY long time, and never once know the "true" Lolth. You'd have to believe that every member of the Seldarine was either blind or stupid.
-Corellon Larethian loved Araushnee, and she loved him back, until her own grand designs, opportunity, and greed led her to betray him, for her own self-gain. Being transformed, and choosing to re-anoint herself 'Lolth', she was still the being who was Araushnee, but with a completely different lease on life, due to the events that transpired between her and the rest of the Seldarine.
Except, Araushnee could not have loved Corellon if you believe that she was Lolth all along. Lolth believes love is a weakness. If you believe that Araushnee loved Corellon, but was Lolth all along simply masked, then the actions she committed proves that love false.
On the other hand, that whole bit there is propagated by the Seldarine. At the absolute best it is a biased account of what happened, and at the absolute worst they may be liars. That's not to say Lolth is telling the truth - she is in the same boat. It's completely possible that the Seldarine never knew Araushnee's true intentions, and thus came to their own conclusions.
My entire point in all of this: The account given by the Seldarine and Lolth are in conflict. Both sides have reasons to lie and be biased in their accounting of events. The story of both sides should not be trusted, and the truth most likely lay somewhere in the middle.
In my first post in this thread, I was attempting to speculate upon the reasons Araushnee committed her actions, not the reasons given by either of the participating parties.
That either makes Lolth the most cunning and manipulative deity ever, or the Seldarine the most stupid and blind.
I think stupid and blind applies. :P
Thus, Corellon was essentially beating the crap out of, and doing harm to, an obviously mentally ill individual. Does that still make him good? :P
Kinda sounds like something a jock would do....
:D
I think stupid and blind applies. :P
I second this.
Also, this topic has given me a potential idea for a heretical cult of Lolth, who continues to see her as Chaotic Neutral Araushnee. I need to flesh this out more, and figure out who feels more threatened by this: Lolth herself, or the Seldarine. While the former is obvious, I think I could find a way for Lolth to twist such a cult to her advantage against the Corellon crew. There are going to be some bumps in the road, but I'll see what I can do.
Except, Araushnee could not have loved Corellon if you believe that she was Lolth all along. Lolth believes love is a weakness. If you believe that Araushnee loved Corellon, but was Lolth all along simply masked, then the actions she committed proves that love false.
This argument assumes that Araushnee/Lolth's continuity of identity is defined by her ability to love. That is, she's Araushnee as long as she's capable of loving, and she's Lolth when she's not. It's arguable, however, that the same person can lose the ability to love but retain the same personality in all other respects. Imagine that Drizzt gets upset after Catti-Brie betrays him and vows never to love again. And sticks to it. Is he still Drizzt? Arguably, yes, unless a capacity to love is his sole defining characteristic.
It also assumes that because Lolth believes love is a weakness, it must be a weakness she doesn't possess. I don't think there's any reason to assume that, however. She believes losing is a weakness, but we know she's capable of losing from time to time. She might believe that addiction to nicotine is a weakness yet have a filthy cigar-smoking habit. She might believe that cheating on her diet is a weakness yet still binge on twinkies every so often. That is, she doesn't necessarily measure up to her own ideals. Self-loathing would be in character for her, I think.
Finally, it's possible that she believes love is weakness, not love anyone at present, but still have the dormant capacity for love within her. She might even be in denial about it. That's not my interpretation of the character, but it's a possibility.
This argument assumes that Araushnee/Lolth's continuity of identity is defined by her ability to love. That is, she's Araushnee as long as she's capable of loving, and she's Lolth when she's not. It's arguable, however, that the same person can lose the ability to love but retain the same personality in all other respects. Imagine that Drizzt gets upset after Catti-Brie betrays him and vows never to love again. And sticks to it. Is he still Drizzt? Arguably, yes, unless a capacity to love is his sole defining characteristic.
It also assumes that because Lolth believes love is a weakness, it must be a weakness she doesn't possess. I don't think there's any reason to assume that, however. She believes losing is a weakness, but we know she's capable of losing from time to time. She might believe that addiction to nicotine is a weakness yet have a filthy cigar-smoking habit. She might believe that cheating on her diet is a weakness yet still binge on twinkies every so often. That is, she doesn't necessarily measure up to her own ideals. Self-loathing would be in character for her, I think.
Finally, it's possible that she believes love is weakness, not love anyone at present, but still have the dormant capacity for love within her. She might even be in denial about it. That's not my interpretation of the character, but it's a possibility.
++
Her standards for worshippers may not be the standards she keeps for herself. The drow are her playthings and she led them to such depravity mostly to spite Corellon and the Seldarine. If she's strict in following her expressed beliefs, she would not have wasted her followers on fruitless infighting.
Unlike some, I do not see enough evidence to judge her as insane. While she is as cruel and hateful as anyone can be, nothing of her character indicates she has lost her sense of rationality. From my perspective, her character is largely influenced by a great deal of anger and hate that have accumulated during and after her associations with the Seldarine. Considering her ego, she's should be gravely insulted by her position as a trophy wife, her relative uselessness within the group, and her husband's love for Sehanine - the strongest female.
Given that, the gift of the dark elven sub-race to Araushnee would be a very potent insult to her as the elven race itself is a direct product of Corellon and Sehanines' love and essense. Aside from that, it also exists as a symbol of their pivotal roles in saving the Seldarine from the Grumush + cohorts as opposed to Araushnee being some powerless dependency that was sidelined.
Anyhow, I'd view Lolth as some ultra egotist ex-wife who is obsessively bent on (1) ruining his husband and former in-laws' lives in any sick way possible and (2) proving that she's better than anyone who was better than her. If you relate this to real life, there are many perfectly sane people (with messed up priorities) who'd have done the same.
I don't think you go far enough to describe what happened to Lolth. I wouldn't say she is incapable of love, I'd go further: she is incapable of empathy. She has become the spider she represents: cold, cruel, vicious, spiteful, merciless and completely lacking in empathy. Love? I think she may have been able to feel it once, but I don't think she can any longer.
I actually see her in much the same light as Jon Irenicus, the primary villain in Baldur's Gate II. Their stories are similar as are their punishments.
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Here is what one of the NPC's said in the game. It is cannon, as the entire game was converted into a novel and made cannon.
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"Bodhi and Joneleth were well known in the elven court of Suldanessellar. He, at least, was a great asset to our kind and kin. He was the greatest of our mages, as skilled as any of elven blood could be without divine assistance. He even had the favor of the Queen. It was not enough. Of the two, the 'sister' was the insatiable one. She was not as regarded, but she held great influence over her 'brother,' and pulled him into her madness. Together they sought more than was possible; they wished the power of the gods, and they were not concerned about the consequences. He of the Exiles performed a dark ritual, and committed a grave offense against the greatest symbol of our longevity: the Tree of Life. He sought to merge his essence with the divine tree, draining it and stealing its energy. He failed, but there was a price to pay for the rest of us. He disrupted the elven connection to land and nature. There was a great shock that ran through Suldanessellar, and many of our weaker citizens lay near death. That he would endanger so many for he and his sister's selfish goals was one thing, but to threaten the very nature of what makes us who we are was unfathomable."
"It fell to Ellesime to judge the crime, and she was harsh. Having forsaken everything elven, they would be outcast so they might learn how precious our ways are."
"Of spiritually high regard, Ellesime petitioned the gods and a divine curse was placed upon the Exiles. All their connection to the elven spirit was severed. Ellesime thought it a punishment worse than death. A life no longer than a human's, and their elven spirits banished from the paradise all elvenkind are entitled to. The sister exposed herself to vampirism to try and counteract the divine curse, but gods are not routed so easily. The brother did not risk the same. A better man would have learned to appreciate what he had lost, perhaps learning humility and seek to make amends. He did not prove to be a 'better man.'"
"It fell to Ellesime to judge the crime, and she was harsh. Having forsaken everything elven, they would be outcast so they might learn how precious our ways are."
"Of spiritually high regard, Ellesime petitioned the gods and a divine curse was placed upon the Exiles. All their connection to the elven spirit was severed. Ellesime thought it a punishment worse than death. A life no longer than a human's, and their elven spirits banished from the paradise all elvenkind are entitled to. The sister exposed herself to vampirism to try and counteract the divine curse, but gods are not routed so easily. The brother did not risk the same. A better man would have learned to appreciate what he had lost, perhaps learning humility and seek to make amends. He did not prove to be a 'better man.'"
presuming that the dark elves were originally not evil
They weren't.
Even if she found some way to mask her alignment from the other deities for thousands of years, her clergy would have eventually caused questions to be raised. There is just no way she could have hidden it.
Thus, this means she HAD to have become evil AFTER her exile and transformation into Lolth.
They weren't.
Yes they are!:P They are elves.:embarrass
;)
Yes they are!:P They are elves.:embarrass
;)
They were tainted by their kin.:D Just like the imperialistic eladrin apparently enslaved and brainwashed the native elves, who (though primitive) were no more savage than lemmings. The two races interbred, creating increasingly feral, vile fey, until their chaotic impulses led to their downfall. See? History.:P
Thus, this means she HAD to have become evil AFTER her exile and transformation into Lolth.
Actually, she was evil before her exile although it's likely that she was not evil to begin with. There are hints throughout the Evermeet novel that she was slowing becoming evil with each of her acts of treachery starting from the meeting with Malar to her plotting with Vhaeraun. However, it's quite plausible that the modern Lolth was much more evil than the newly exiled Araushnee.
It's almost as if suddenly Auril was plotting to become the goddess of the Summer and Spring, or Umberlee was to begin plotting to get the portfolios of Deserts and Mountain Glaciers.
Araushnee spends thousands of years loyal to Corellon and the Seldarine, and then just wakes up one day and decides... "I'm bored of this! How can I screw over all my friends and allies while killing the man I love?" :P
Also on the Cleric issue, I believe it worked differently as far as cleric alignments went in 2e. I know Faiths and Avatars mentions that Clerics can be of 'any alignment acceptable to their god', which probably means that anything in the 'Clergy Alignment' notation for the gods is OK for clerics. Corellon's entry in Demihuman Deities, for example, lists his clergy alignments as LG, NG and CG, which would seem to break the one-step thing right there by including Lawful Good and not including Chaotic Neutral. Nor is he unique in the Seldarine on this, so it would seem under 2e that Araushnee being evil and having Good clerics might perhaps not be such a stretch. (Or she might just have had a bunch of Neutral ones, no good ones, and nobody bothered to notice because they were focusing on something more important to them, like their *own* priests.)
My bet, if she was ever not evil, she was CN at best and slipped to evil through greed, ambition and y'know wanting to kill her husband. Being Good isn't a requirement for being a member of the Seldarine, after all, and nothing in 'destiny, artisans and dark elves' screams 'I am a good-aligned goddess'.
Point being, still, that Araushnee fell and stopped being anything elven or good long before Corellon kicked her out of bed for eating crackers.
Araushnee was the goddess of destiny, artisans and dark elves - and this was long before the dark elves became drow. So where in there, in those three portfolios, does it lead her down a path of corruption, evil and greed?
One or two actions that might be deemed questionable is not enough to throw an individual into an evil alignment. And keep in mind, they must be actions. Not only would Araushnee have to walk down a path of corruption, evil and greed she would have to take numerous actions consistently over a period of time to move from CN to CE.
I just do not see how a goddess of destiny, artisans and dark elves (pre-drow) is suddenly or even gradually going to turn against every friend she ever had including the man she loved. Perhaps if Corellon began to slight her, it might be possible, but that would in turn make Araushnee's actions justifiable to some extent. ;)
Granted, I am not ruling out deus ex machina because that is likely what caused it. I simply believe it is more in character for Araushnee to have taken her actions as a result of her portfolios rather than imposed motivations by designers. Either that or it was poorly thought out.
Thus, if you believe it was a deus ex machina, and had nothing to do with realistic motivations, it makes sense to retcon it as Araushnee acting within her portfolio of destiny, foreseeing some future calamity and acting to prevent it (which of course she failed at).
Even if that is true, it doesn't make sense. I'm looking at Araushnee, not as a character, but as a deity. She had certain important portfolios... what about those portfolios would have driven her toward the dark side, to work against Corellon?
...
Araushnee spends thousands of years loyal to Corellon and the Seldarine, and then just wakes up one day and decides... "I'm bored of this! How can I screw over all my friends and allies while killing the man I love?" :P
-Deities aren't simply their portfolios. They have minds, emotions, feelings, etc. As explained in Evermeet: Island of Elves, Araushnee, over the course of thousands of years, grew jealous of Corellon Larethian. Situations like this happen all the time, where husbands and/or wives slowly drift apart in their marriage, and eventually one or the other grows to resent their partner, especially if they find themselves in a situation that they can't "escape"- married and with children, or a housewife who languishes at home while her husband makes decent money, causing the family to have some money are two examples.
Corellon Larethian: "What is this that you have done? What could you possibly hope to gain by such actions? If there is anything that you lacked, you had only to speak and I would have given it to you with joy."
Araushnee: "Exactly. You would have 'given'. True power is not given, but seized! As to your 'great gifts', I held in my hand the destinies of mortal beings- but was my own ever mine to command? You treated me like some cherished and cosseted possession while standing in the way of everything I desired!"
-Judging by this passage, it seems pretty clear-cut: Araushnee was the housewife who came to believe that she had no sovereignty of her own (whether or not this is actually true is another case), and was stuck in a situation she didn't want to be stuck in. As such, she did what she believed she had to do to escape that untenable situation, and in doing so, literally became warped by the angry emotions she possessed, that were bottled, that came to the surface. Sadly, it happens all the time to families.
-She didn't start off as evil, but her dissatisfaction concerning her situation, the means she thought she could pursue to escape that situation, and the "no going back" aspect of launching her plan all led to a slippery slope that could not be stopped once it began. While Araushnee, in the beginning, might have sought to "annul" her marriage with Corellon Larethian (the text says no such thing, but this is the first logical step, given her conundrum), one thing led to another, and then she was paying proxies to off her husband, and then directly confronting him, and then actively plotting against him and other members of the Seldarine as a twisted, monstrous creature reflective of the hate in her heart.
(I'm going to be away for the week, so forgive me, since my response will take a while.)
As the goddess of destiny, she feels trapped by the future she sees. Corellon believes he granted her a great and wonderful gift, but from Araushnee's perspective he gave her a curse and turned her into a slave. Since most of the Seldarine are chaotic (including Araushnee), I imagine seeing the future, and not being able to escape from it is VERY constraining.
You cannot, after all, escape destiny. While most people would love the power to know the future, there are certainly downsides to it. It is easy to see how resentment, anger and frustration could over time build as a result of this fact... and how she might blame Corellon for it.
Perhaps, as a result of this, her attempt to slay Corellon was an attempt to escape her own fate.
This makes Araushnee's actions plausible and in line with her portfolios.
I think it should be noted that often things are stated and restated and then reinterpreted. Things that one may have originally read as a statement of facts later have become the stating of a myth or simply a belief.
That is the way I have always seen the fall of Araushnee. Just as the creation of Evermeet went back in time (it did, didn't it?
) the actual fall was enacted retroactively.To me it has always seemed to be a case of the legend of the past growing to match the reality of the present when the present was the crown wars. Her story was rewritten to match the descent of the dark elves who started out following Ghaunadaur in Ilythiir.
IMO, canon or not canon does not matter because there is no reason such powerful forces of worship and religious hatred could not have acted upon the divine as the high magic did on the creation of Evermeet. The stories were changed by society during the height of the Crown Wars and the effect this had when the "beliefs" were shared as being retroactively true by millions of worshippers of the Seldarine was to make this retroactively true in the "reality" of Faerun. That would not violate canon. At least, I don't think it would.
Or maybe we are just waiting to discover that it did not happen 20 000 years before the Crown Wars and that it is just a story told from the Crown Wars. Maybe we will learn that she fell alongside the drow of Ilythiir and that the winners wrote history.
Maybe we will learn that she fell alongside the drow of Ilythiir and that the winners wrote history.
Earlier in the thread I was confused (and surprised) to learn that Araushnee actually fell long before the Dark Elves. (I learned this by checking GHotR.) I was confused by the Power of Faerûn, which made it seem as if things were somewhat unclear when it came to mortal worshipers and their effects on the deity they worship. In this case, it implied that the fall of the Dark Elves may have caused Araushnee to fall.
It really sucks that my knowledge of the Elves is so limited. Elves as a whole don't really interest me all that much, and I don't like how they are typically just portrayed as humans with pointy ears. When I posted in this thread, I was not anticipating on getting sucked into an actual debate. I simply wanted to point out that there were two sides to every story. I haven't even read the OP or any other posts before my own. :P
Perhaps, as a result of this, her attempt to slay Corellon was an attempt to escape her own fate.
This makes Araushnee's actions plausible and in line with her portfolios.
The story of Araushnee is very simple. She is dissatisfied with being a useless trophy wife, angered by Corellon's infidelity, and jealous of Sehanine stealing her spotlight on everything. Overtime, the discomfort grows into resentment, then to hatred and jealousy.
Her betrayal is not a result of foresight or altruistic sacrifice... until WotC designers decide to do another retcon because they think Meldread's idea is as cool as the Eladrin concept.
Or maybe we are just waiting to discover that it did not happen 20 000 years before the Crown Wars and that it is just a story told from the Crown Wars. Maybe we will learn that she fell alongside the drow of Ilythiir and that the winners wrote history.
It's unlikely. In contrast to some of our historical records (especially the ones on war history in Japan), the source books are there to tell the DM's what actually happened and much of their contents are considered to be obscure knowledge in the realms.
But the foresight Araushnee had at her diposal, apart from making it deceptively easy to plan her way to power, also gave Araushnee the means to see how much influence Corellon actually had on the future and she might have become to envy the rise of Corellons star she had to observe in her daily visions. Its also hard to accept all the glory Corellon actually earned thanks to Araushnees expert divinitions. Corellon must have used her pre-knowledge on numerous occasions in battles on Olympus, and all the dieties talk was how brilliant a strategist Corellon was. Araushnee's divining work is not as glamorous as the actual act of leading a defense or offense in battle. Its hard to live in the shadow of a bright wardiety such as Corellon.
The story of Araushnee is very simple. She is dissatisfied with being a useless trophy wife, angered by Corellon's infidelity, and jealous of Sehanine stealing her spotlight on everything. Overtime, the discomfort grows into resentment, then to hatred and jealousy.
Her betrayal is not a result of foresight or altruistic sacrifice... until WotC designers decide to do another retcon because they think Meldread's idea is as cool as the Eladrin concept.
Definitely this. Anger can be powerfully transforming, and it makes sense while being simple. If the gods are as anthropomorphic as they've been made out to be in prior novels, then having anger develop into evil is often a straightforward path.
So Selune:P caused Lolths fall? Maybe Shar started whispering in her ear to lead her to ruin from the shadows.:D Fits Shar and her loss and bitterness angle.;)
Funny. This reminds me of the pre-4E release rumors, one of which was that if Sehanine = Selune, then maybe Lolth = Shar. How quickly those rumors exploded. Oh, and if anyone tempted Araushnee to fall, it was the most cunning, evil deity of all:
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Gruumsh
But I like Shar better.Good point!:P Blame it on the "One Eyed Willy"!
Well, that's certainly a new title for him. If only they'd make that canon.:D
But I like Shar better.
We've gathered as much.
Selune/Sehanine listening to Shars whispers is highly unlikely, but Araushnee could likely have had warm ears for Shars secrets; anything that would help her get back at the Fey Father she'd probably embrace. Shar might have used her unique diety powers to bring into or alter the vision Araushnee should have had on the day Corellon sneaked away with Selune behind the bush...
Let's hope the WotC designers don't see this. They are already extremely infatuated with Shar. Having her involved in the Elven Pantheon's drama would be too much.
Aye Sehanine Moonbow is at fault! Its easy to conclude that Corellons affairs with his fellow godesses grated on Araushnees nerves. Corellon and Araushnee were supposed to be king and queen of Arvandor but he slept with them all even after the official declaration of their marriage.
And that is not all! One of his mistresses is much more important than her and has created a race out of the mingled love with him. I'd feel terribly jealous too if I were in her shoes.
what I had to say clean version.
Lolth had desires for Orc
I had something to type here, but it was borderline adult rated so.......
what I had to say clean version.
Lolth had desires for Orc
That's incredibly smart...
That's incredibly smart...
no it wasnt, it was dumb
I had something to type here, but it was borderline adult rated so.......
what I had to say clean version.
Lolth had desires for Orc
Hey, Lolth likes power. Who's she gonna prefer: Gruumsh, who ruts like a beast, or Corellon, who's far too dainty for anything exciting?:P
Hey, Lolth likes power. Who's she gonna prefer: Gruumsh, who ruts like a beast, or Corellon, who's far too dainty for anything exciting?:P
Oh trust me, Corellon is anything but dainty.
Oh trust me, Corellon is anything but dainty.
He's always seemed the most dainty of all the Seldarine to me (apart from Hanali). Aerdrie Faenya is buffer than Corellon.:P
No no... Corellon is fancy, not dainty.
Fancy, dainty...
Either way, apparently you don't disagree about Aerdrie being buffer than Corellon.:P :D
He's always seemed the most dainty of all the Seldarine to me (apart from Hanali). Aerdrie Faenya is buffer than Corellon.:P
Trust me, Corellon is plenty buff. Just because he doesn't have a bunch of gross bulging muscles like humans do doesn't mean he can't tie you in knots. Assuming he doesn't just kill you outright from the next plane over just because he wants to. ;P Sure, he's got 19 useless levels of Fighter in 3.0, but he's also got 20 levels of I Win aka Wizard, and 10 levels of Cleric. Plus he's a Divine Rank 19 Greater God. He's one of the scariest mofos in the multiverse, if not the scariest.
And this is *dainty*? :P
(I just now realised how my previous post makes it sound like I'm vouching for Corellon not being dainty in bed. Whoops. Well he's not dainty there either, but.)
Trust me, Corellon is plenty buff. Just because he doesn't have a bunch of gross bulging muscles like humans do doesn't mean he can't tie you in knots. Assuming he doesn't just kill you outright from the next plane over just because he wants to. ;P
Sounds like something a malevolent hellspawn like Corellon would do.:P
Sure, he's got 19 useless levels of Fighter in 3.0, but he's also got 20 levels of I Win aka Wizard, and 10 levels of Cleric. Plus he's a Divine Rank 19 Greater God. He's one of the scariest mofos in the multiverse, if not the scariest.[
And this is *dainty*? :P
Wait. I know he has DR 19, but with 4E's new Gods have Levels style, where does this place him? 37? 38?
Oh, and there's only one deity who truly strikes fear into the hearts of all mortals:
Show
Urdlen
And he's a multiversal deity as opposed to a local deity.
So is Shar apparently. What's that say about her?:P
Hells, Moradin is a multiversal deity too, and no one ever shows him the proper respect. His people actually contribute to the world, unlike the ravenous locusts Corellon calls his children. He's twice the god Corellon is, plus he can grow facial hair.
And he treats women right (unlike a certain androgynous fey who annoys his-her lover so much she stabs him-her in the back). Gee, I can really take the p__s out of Corellon when my muse inspires me.:D
See him here posing for a picture in avatar form while visiting Evermeet during the Time of Troubles:
So is Shar apparently. What's that say about her?:P
You know I have to take the bait on this.:P
She gets around if you know what I mean.
And he's a multiversal deity as opposed to a local deity. That makes him Chuck Norris. :D
Here we go.
Aye Sehanine Moonbow is at fault! Its easy to conclude that Corellons affairs with his fellow godesses grated on Araushnees nerves. Corellon and Araushnee were supposed to be king and queen of Arvandor but he slept with them all even after the official declaration of their marriage.
-That's still no excuse. Deep Sashelas is constantly throwing himself around, much to the dismay of Trishina, but she never tried to kill him or anything for it.
A dolphin goddess being dismayed over infidelity? Hardly likely, given how dolphins tend to behave in the wild... especially considering its one of the relatively rare species we observed engaging in sexual gratification outside of procreation.
-Thus reinforcing my point.
You know damn well every single member of the Seldarine has had sex with every single other member of the Seldarine at least once.
And Shevarash has "recently begun to find solace in the soothing embrace of Shar". If even Mr. Grumpy-pants is sleeping around outside the pantheon, you know damned well everyone else is. ;)
Here's a better picture of Corellon's manly manliness:
But she has a motive if she wanted it to be, so we can only wait when she'll move to slay her man and take the rightfull position of ruler of all sea elves! Next up she'll drown Corellon for his infedility, just wait and see.
I like that Fenmarel Mestarine also was seduced by Araushnee. I'm not sure but I believe this was after Corellon had named her Tanar'ri and made her an outcast of Arvandor. It was Fenmarel who gave Shevarash his divine ascension, partly to make up for all the sorrow the Lone Wolf brought to Arvandor by spilling secrets of its defenses to Lolth during pillowtalk. ;)
Deep Shaselas' officially consort with Trishina eh? She sounds like she should hate it that the Dolphin lord sleeps around given her portfolio of fidelity. i.e. loyalty to obligations.
-Trishina scares off the current object of Deep Sashelas' desires, thus doing her part to keep him from cheating on her. Note how she handles things rationally, though. Attempting to kill your partner for cheating on you is not rational. Lolth doesn't get a "free pass" for destruction because of Corellon Larethian's possible antics. As Nai said, she herself was probably sleeping around as well. That's what Elves do- marriage, and permanent monogamy are fairly uncommon. Mainstream Elven society, concerning most subraces, is very, very polygamous.
If I had to re-invent the deity, he'd be a hermaphrodite capable of self-reproduction. He'd hold the portfolios of the Arts, Arrogance, Battle, Elven High Magic, the Elven Race, Hedonism, Music, and Poetry. I'd then give Corellon a personality that would rival Caligula.
He'd have wild orgies and drunken revels in marble palaces built more for aesthetic appeal than functionality. He'd love battle with a focus on over-the-top performances, while virtually ignoring the effectiveness of the maneuvers. He'd be a deity that is vain and susceptible to flattery of all kinds, especially when it comes to being reminded of his own greatness. When he isn't having wild drunken sex with anything that moves, he enjoys poetry, the beauty of the natural world and fantastic music.
His whole existence would be wrapped up in self-pleasure, decadence and a wish to make the lives of his "children" just as full as his own.
I'd then re-write Corellon as giving birth to most of the members of the Seldarine, including Araushnee and Sehanine Moonbow. Deep Sashelas would have been born as a result of Corellon's union with a dolphin that he fell in love with for a time.
All of this could then be contrasted with Gruumsh, who would be more serious and brooding with a dislike of art and decadence. He'd be more focused on effectiveness over aesthetic appeal. If you wanted to step into complete and total heresy, Gruumsh could be the eldest son of Corellon who was exiled long before even Araushnee was born. Gruumsh could have then created the Orcish race in his own image, perhaps transforming a sub-race of elves that had turned against Corellon.
Then of course, later on, you'd have Araushnee plotting with Corellon's exiled son to take control of Arvandor together. Perhaps Araushnee was even having sex with Gruumsh at the time. ;)
You know... keeping it all in the family. :P
The Greek Gods would have nothing on the Seldarine. :D
[Prepares to be burned at the stake for the ultimate heresy.]
Yeah, if Araushnee was so friggin' elven, it's a good bet she was sleeping around *herself*. :P
Well, is anyone *actually* denying that possibility?
You know damn well every single member of the Seldarine has had sex with every single other member of the Seldarine at least once.
Could have swore I said this myself. Maybe it was a different thread.:embarrass
And Shevarash has "recently begun to find solace in the soothing embrace of Shar". If even Mr. Grumpy-pants is sleeping around outside the pantheon, you know damned well everyone else is. ;)
Shevarash gets plenty of action. So does Fenmarel. Chicks dig badass fey.
The Greek Gods would have nothing on the Seldarine. :D
[Prepares to be burned at the stake for the ultimate heresy.]
The Greek Gods have nothing on anyone simply because they suck.:P
Seriously, not to ruffle feathers, but the Greek gods are some of the least interesting deities in any RW mythology (in my opinion). I've always felt the mortals and heroes of the Greek myths were vastly more intriguing than the gods. Though I much prefer the Celtic, Norse, and Japanese mythologies, myself.
Hmmmm... Now I'm tempted to brainstorm RW counterparts for the FR deities.
But Sehanine and Araushnee hated eachothers guts way before Araushnee took any moves against Corellon.
-No they didn't. The only source that we have on the matter, Evermeet: Island of Elves, says nothing of the sort. Araushnee mentions that she considered Sehanine Moonbow her "hated rival"- perhaps for Corellon Larethian's affection- but Sehanine Moonbow says nothing of hating Araushnee. She confronts Araushnee only after she discovers her treason, in creating a scabbard that would hinder Corellon Larethian's ability to fight, and her alliance with Gruumsh, and other fell powers.
But as a proposed change to our beloved Corellon... Burning at the stake is too good for you. You are clearly too far gone for there to be any hope of you seeing the light of Corellon's love and mercy. Clearly the only option is your utter destruction.
*casts Trap The Soul on you and chucks the gem containing your soul into a Sphere of Annihilation*
Anyone else want to insult the glory and honor of the Protector? :D
Make a new setting, throw that in and for the love of Corellon change the names and that would actually be an interesting take on an Elven god.
But as a proposed change to our beloved Corellon... Burning at the stake is too good for you. You are clearly too far gone for there to be any hope of you seeing the light of Corellon's love and mercy. Clearly the only option is your utter destruction.
I may not be singing praises here, but at least I've never encouraged Corellon to change.
Anyone else want to insult the glory and honor of the Protector? :D
Corellon has body odor problems.:P That's why he neglects Sehanine and hangs out with Rillifane, whose earthy aroma masks the scent of stank.
I may not be singing praises here, but at least I've never encouraged Corellon to change.
Which is why you're still alive.
Corellon has body odor problems.:P
Yes, the lack of any kind of scent is rather disturbing at first. Cut him some slack, he's a god. The prettyboy elf thing is just a projection for our benefit. His true form is utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds and we can't even truly percieve it anyway.
Yes, the lack of any kind of scent is rather disturbing at first. Cut him some slack, he's a god. The prettyboy elf thing is just a projection for our benefit. His true form is utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds and we can't even truly percieve it anyway.
I'm gonna try to make a list of which scents I associate with each Seldarine member:
Corellon - Stank and Aqua Velva
Sehanine - Lavender and jasmine
Rillifane - Soil and hemp
Shevarash - Polish (as in shoe polish, not the nationality)
Labelas - Old books (you know what I'm talking about) and ink
Aerdrie - The smell of the earth after heavy rains
Hanali - Flowers and fruit
Solonor - Sweat and sawdust
Fenmarel - Smoke
Deep Sashelas - Brine
Erevan - Chocolate and wine
I can see why Araushnee would get sick of Corellon. His pong would deter anyone from staying around him, if they didn't have overwhelming smells themselves.
Of course, Gruumsh smells like sweat and fecal matter, and Malar smells like blood and fecal matter, so I don't know why she'd choose "out of the frying pot, into the fire, into yet another fire"
-That's still no excuse. Deep Sashelas is constantly throwing himself around, much to the dismay of Trishina, but she never tried to kill him or anything for it.
There's a difference - Corellon and Sehanine were both much stronger than Araushnee. As well, Corellon himself is on the pinnicle of the Elven hierarchy and having to witness such raw power on a daily basis and being repeatly sidelined by her husband is not a very good feeling. Even for the respect she garners from the others, it's likely arised from her status of Corellon's wife rather than her own merit.
But then again, not everyone responds so violently to the concept of being a trophy wife. In Araushnee's case, she's just an extra jealous and egocentric person.
There's a difference - Corellon and Sehanine were both much stronger than Araushnee.
-At the time, we have no comparison of power between Sehanine Moonbow and Araushnee. Given that Araushnee was able to best the moon goddess before getting her cover blown, I would assume that both were Intermediate deities, with similar relative power levels.
But then again, not everyone responds so violently to the concept of being a trophy wife. In Araushnee's case, she's just an extra jealous and egocentric person.
-That's what it comes down to: Regardless if you like your lot in life or not, it doesn't merit homicidal tendencies.
-Thus reinforcing my point.
Not really... Trishinia and Araushnee/Lolth were two very different entities with very different personalities and attitudes, not to mention in two very different situations. Besides, there's the whole weird inter-species erotica aspect of DS and Trish's relationship...
Not really... Trishinia and Araushnee/Lolth were two very different entities with very different personalities and attitudes, not to mention in two very different situations. Besides, there's the whole weird inter-species erotica aspect of DS and Trish's relationship...
-Not particularly, no. A rational "answer" to the situation is to not go on a murderous rampage, as Trishina did not, whereas Araushnee did.
Besides, there's the whole weird inter-species erotica aspect of DS and Trish's relationship...
In all fairness, "species" doesn't carry that much weight with deities, who can pick just about any form they please and still be able to call it "natural". So it's a much bigger deal to the beholder than to Deep Sashelas or Trishina.
-At the time, we have no comparison of power between Sehanine Moonbow and Araushnee. Given that Araushnee was able to best the moon goddess before getting her cover blown, I would assume that both were Intermediate deities, with similar relative power levels.
It was also implied that Sehanine's powers waxed and waned with the Moon and that Araushnee would've stood no chance when she was at her full power. And no, Araushnee caught her by surprise and only successfully immobilized her.
-That's what it comes down to: Regardless if you like your lot in life or not, it doesn't merit homicidal tendencies.
Indeed and I wasn't contradicting that. On the other hand, it doesn't take a very evil person to reach such a state given the circumstances.
Now if Cyric was to kill Corellon, then I would care.:D
Now if Cyric was to kill Corellon, then I would care.:D
Would you care if Cyric became Corellon's new consort? Or Lolth's?:P
I can see it now...:embarrass
And dear gods it is a disturbing mental image.
It was also implied that Sehanine's powers waxed and waned with the Moon and that Araushnee would've stood no chance when she was at her full power. And no, Araushnee caught her by surprise and only successfully immobilized her.
Curious: Is this pre-4E lore, or a result of the "Sehanine=Selune" revelation?
Then all of those Evil Elves would know a REAL MASTER.
The Cosmos would shudder then, and make the Spellplague seem like awalk in the park!
Cyric and Lloth would be fun.:D
And yes that is a disturbing mental picture.
Curious: Is this pre-4E lore, or a result of the "Sehanine=Selune" revelation?
Pre-4E (Evermeet novel). However, this is likely different to what you are thinking:
- Selune is the moon and her power fluctuates periodically over millennia (very long interval of fluctuation).
- Sehanine's powers were implied to be tied to the moon itself and would be at peak when the moon emerged (shorter interval of fluctuation)
That or drive him to suicide.
Plus if it came to fighting Corellon would mop the floor with Cyric hands down no questions asked. :p
Araushnee/Lolth didn't go on a murderous rampage, that's Seldarine Propaganda. She just invited Gruumpy and Co over for tea, who Corellon took exception to, which started the brawl, while she sat on the lawn sipping sweet tea and nibbling on snacky bits, being perfectly innocent and sweet while waiting for the idiot boys to stop arguing and come to their senses. ;)
-Was that before or after she cursed Eilistraee's arrow in an effort to frame her for the death of Corellon Larethian?
You still buy into that propaganda, eh? Obviously Corellon "cursed" the arrow that shot him to frame Araushnee because he needed an excuse to discredit her when she saw through his evil. Had Araushnee actually done it, her powers over fate would have ended Corellon, not just injured him. Wake up and smell the Elverquisst there LK. :P
-And, would that be before or after Araushnee and Vhaeraun attempted to assassinate Sehanine Moonbow, who, apparently, turns out to be Selûne, a fine and upstanding Human deity that we all know wouldn't arbitrarily lie about things like attempted assassination plots?
I'm amazed that you continue to buy into the fiction that Corellon was ever anything but pure evil, while Araushnee/Lolth was driven to it after being deceived by his masquerade at goodness, her heartsickness driving her down the dark path as Corellon always intended, just not in the way he intended. You poor deluded fool...
-And, would that be before or after Araushnee and Vhaeraun attempted to assassinate Sehanine Moonbow, who, apparently, turns out to be Selûne, a fine and upstanding Human deity that we all know wouldn't arbitrarily lie about things like attempted assassination plots?
They didn't try to assassinate Sehanine Moonbow. They merely tried to disable her for a period of time.
This thread is managing to start annoying me, though good timing with the forums going down since I'll have to avoid it for a week. :p
Free your mind, embrace your inner spider, and see the truth... that Corellon is actually a god of Baator. :evillaugh
:D
*insert something vaguely amusing about smiting you here or whatever*
:evillaugh
After, as they were attempting to preserve the purity of the Seldarine after Corellon allowed it to be sullied with a human interloper deity just to bed her. And it wasn't an assassination, it was a straight-up attack, that interloper Selune just mischaracterized it to generate sympathy. And the lie wasn't arbitrary, it was motivated to spin herself in the best possible light.
-Uh huh...Of course, wouldn't that sully Selûne, who is good and therefore, by standard D&D definitions of 'Good', does not participate (knowingly) in things like defamation of character, slander, and so on...?
-Uh huh...Of course, wouldn't that sully Selûne, who is good and therefore, by standard D&D definitions of 'Good', does not participate (knowingly) in things like defamation of character, slander, and so on...?
A dupe of that pointy eared fiend Corellon perhaps... or maybe that Chaotic aspect of hers got the better of her and she whimsically decided to dabble a little in evil to see how the other side lived. Or maybe she's just as evil as Mr Evil Himself, AKA Corellon, and has spent a very long time defaming her sister Shar, who just wanted the bedlight turned off so she could sleep, who eventually went insane from sleep deprivation caused by her selfish twit of a sister. Ever think of that one, eh Mr Smarty Wands? :P
A dupe of that pointy eared fiend Corellon perhaps... or maybe that Chaotic aspect of hers got the better of her and she whimsically decided to dabble a little in evil to see how the other side lived. Or maybe she's just as evil as Mr Evil Himself, AKA Corellon, and has spent a very long time defaming her sister Shar, who just wanted the bedlight turned off so she could sleep, who eventually went insane from sleep deprivation caused by her selfish twit of a sister. Ever think of that one, eh Mr Smarty Wands? :P
-Uh huh...
A dupe of that pointy eared fiend Corellon perhaps... or maybe that Chaotic aspect of hers got the better of her and she whimsically decided to dabble a little in evil to see how the other side lived. Or maybe she's just as evil as Mr Evil Himself, AKA Corellon, and has spent a very long time defaming her sister Shar, who just wanted the bedlight turned off so she could sleep, who eventually went insane from sleep deprivation caused by her selfish twit of a sister. Ever think of that one, eh Mr Smarty Wands? :P
-Uh huh...
Some poeple tend to confuse the "chaotic" alignment with the tendency to lie and do mischievious acts.
Stigger is just in denial and hasn't yet seen the light of Corellon. Just nod your head and smile at his madness. He'll come around.