I'll start (but this is by no means a complete list):
- Elminster and Drizzt; being first introduced to the Realms via the novels, these two characters are a large part of what has defined the Realms for me. Elminster is in many ways an Avatar of Ed, and I have always seen his presence in the Realms kind of comforting (even before I started playing in the Realms)
- The rich history of the Realms
- Mask and his schemes
- Having everyone ****** off at Cyric
- Kara-Tur; a bit of the campaign setting I always thought was under-represented but loved anyways
- More to come...
It felt REAL.
And BTW, it NO longer does...
I started off with Darkwalker on moonshae and the original campaign setting drifted away when products became difficult to pick up over in the UK but came back again a few years ago.
I could see myself walking along the streets of Waterdeep, or Suzail or walking into any one of a hundred different inns that have been written about.
For the most part I have enjoyed the changes to the Realms over the years, however I am holding on any opinion until I see the final product for 4e. So far I do not like most of what I have heard but I hope to be pleasantly surprised come August next year.
* It felt real.
* Its ok to be good-guys.
* Its ok to go nuts with gods, demon lords, planes and flashy magic.
* Its ok to create stories about innkeepers, merchants and barwenches.
* Bards, druids and rangers have a place in the realms.
* Rich history and details that keeps throwing surprises at me.
* There are always more bits of lore that can fit into a plot, if I dig deep enough.
* Everything 2e has a place in the realms.
* Ed Greenwood
* Dedicated writers
* The good scribes at Candlekeep
* Minsc & Boo
2 - Artemis Entreri
3 - The Baldur's Gate games.
4 - ...the Icewind Dale games...
5 - The BG: Dark Alliance games.
6 - Demon Stone.
7 - And I suppose the setting is pretty cool, too. :D
Big topic. Ill focus on metagame/design:
* It felt real.
* Its ok to be good-guys.
* Its ok to go nuts with gods, demon lords, planes and flashy magic.
* Its ok to create stories about innkeepers, merchants and barwenches.
* Bards, druids and rangers have a place in the realms.
* Rich history and details that keeps throwing surprises at me.
* There are always more bits of lore that can fit into a plot, if I dig deep enough.
* Everything 2e has a place in the realms.
* Ed Greenwood
* Dedicated writers
* The good scribes at Candlekeep
* Minsc & Boo
QFT
QFT
Would you like to elaborate on that? Or even better, let us know why you love the Realms? Commenting with a single acronym seems a little inane to me. If you want to get a point across, please do it with words. Preferably in sentences, paragraphs, or lists.
EDIT: I figured out that QFT stands for "Quoted For Truth" shortly after this incident if any want's to know. I was just going back through this thread when I saw this bit and realized that I never mentioned that I figured out what it meant. *Apologizing look directed toward Alediran*
Hope that makes sense.
But, if I must make a list:
--I love many of the famous characters, along with many of the not-quite so famous ones. That's why I've reacted with such disgust to WotC's seemingly cavalier attitude towards their continued existence.
--I love the various locales: Waterdeep, the Sword Coast, the Western Heartlands, the Border Kingdoms, Cormyr, Rashemen, the Underdark...each place is different and has something exciting to offer anyone who is willing to explore.
--As someone else astutely mentioned, bards, rangers and druid don't feel like "unimportant" classes here. Bards especially have a traditionally heroic role to play in this setting, and being a bard lover that suits me well. Heck, perhaps I love bards so much because of how they are portrayed in the Realms.
--There are plenty of religions and organizations that all interact with each other. No one organization feels monolithic. I enjoy Realms deities and that's yet another reason why I'm unhappy with the current direction of the Realms.
--The Realms has layer upon layer upon LAYER of history. Learning everything might well be an impossible task, because if you dig deeply enough, there's something new. And of course, that also means that there's always an unexplored locale out there if you are willing to look for it.
--I love the sense of adventure, heroism, and cameraderie that Realms fiction and design has been so good at conveying to us.
--And of course, I can't forget that there's no shortage of dedicated and caring designers, the foremost among them Ed Greenwood. He loves interacting with fans and will try to answer just about any question you pose to him. That means a lot to me.
Would you like to elaborate on that? Or even better, let us know why you love the Realms? Commenting with a single acronym seems a little inane to me. If you want to get a point across, please do it with words. Preferably in sentences, paragraphs, or lists.
I meant that I agreed with what Snotlord said, and with the other posters too.
1) The gods were written as real being and not as the morality soap operas of our mythology (well till Cyric came along). I like the fact each god was a invidual.
2) The high levels NPCs people dislike adds much needed balance and a sense of history to the Realms. I don't found a fantasy world with only one group of heroes fighting the good fight to be kinda of silly and unrealistic. I mean sure but what happens to the village when the PCs aren't there.
3) I like the variety when it comes to the locations ...you could run any type of campaigns you wanted. Also for the most part there was a realistic feel to it.
4) The whole world didn't revovled around the PCs. Meaning everything just didn't freeze in Waterdeep because the PCs just happened to be in Shadowdale.
In other words the design philosphy of the 'D&D' 4th edition has nothing in common of why I liked the Realms and D&D in general.
I believe that the Realms feel real because they are complex. Complexity is not always a bad thing; natural evolution very often results in complex situations that no simple rule can describe entirely. Natural evolution also often results in less-than-optimal situations, with some gaps or with redundancy. Things that are too simple or that can be described in few rules often feel artificial, like a smooth rubber toy.
The Realms are complex because they are very very rich in lore. Pick any area where you want to play, and you can find lore about its hamlets, villages, underground, dungeons, forests, ... in the Realms books, novels, and on the net. Then, obviously, as a DM, you are free to use this lore, modify it to better fit your taste or your needs, or completely ignore it. But the lore is there and the details make the world feel real and living.
The Realms are complex because their pantheons are complex and nuanced. Yes, some gods are redundant if you don't pay attention to the finer details of their description, but is it a problem? I don't think so. I, for one, like to have gods whose portfolio nearly cross each others, because they inspire me with adventures based on more interesting conflicts (more nuanced than good vs. evil or law vs. chaos). And if you do not like it? You just have to remove or merge a few gods. It's very easy to remove a god or two, while it's much harder to add gods; so the obvious solution to please most people is to keep large, developed pantheons.
As a lover of the complexity provided by the detailed lore and the pantheons, I can't help but be slightly wary of the future changes that seem to aim at simplifying things. Simpler does not always equal better ...
When I am told that the setting might be pushed 10 (or 100 years) forward, or when I am told that several nations/cities will disappear, I'm afraid that much of the complex lore that has been accumulated won't serve anymore. When I am told that pantheons are being trimmed to make things simpler, I'm afraid that several of the options I have used will no longer be available to develop nuanced adventures.
I really want, and I really try to keep an open mind and good hopes for the future Realms, but what has been said about the future setting does not really help. :/
I think it would be a good thing if the designers could answer the question of this thread: "What makes you love the Realms? What constitutes the Realms feel? What does a setting need to have to feel like the Realms?". Or, in other words, what will old fans of the setting find in the next version that will say "This is still the Realms"?
First of all, while it was "normal" fantasy (instead of horror like Ravenloft, apocalpse/wastelands like Dark Sun, or weirder stuff like Planescape or Spelljammer), it wasn't the same as most other normal fantasy settings out there. Yes, it was vanilla, but vanilla with a very tasty sauce!
That sauce included:
The Weave as an "interface" between magic power and magic user. It's not just mana being drawn from the air or something, things were explained. I liked the Shadow Weave, too, since the idea of an alternate interface for magic, with different rules and high risk of corruption appealed to me.
Lots and lots of gods. Pantheons full. Instead of being limited by a dozen gods or so, there were a myriad of deities. I liked that because many concepts and ideas had their special champion. There wasn't just a god of war, but also a goddess of tactics. It also felt more believable since there was some overlapping, as if those gods emerged, not as if they were created. Yes, there was a goddess of magic and a god of wizards, might not be what you'd do if you sat down and designed a pantheon, but that's good, since pantheons should not feel like they were designed.
Another aspect of this was that there wasn't just a myriad of gods. It was a multitude of pantheons, especially for the different races. There wasn't just "the elf god" and "the orc god", they all had several deities with different portfolios, often stuff that mattered to those races (dwarves had an evil god of greed, for example). Of course, the non-human races could still rever the "human" gods, and things got interesting.
I also like about the Realms that it's a living, breathing world. Things happen, things change. That's great - as long as it isn't forced upon the world, and doesn't go too far (the world changes, but you should be able to recognise it after the change). The characters aren't the only heroes in the game world, and the world didn't stand still until the players entered a certain area and all those scripted sequences went to life.
It doesn't mean that the characters can't make a difference, but it does mean that they can almost always assume that somewhere, someone was a threat to them. They couldn't just wait until they got to level, say 15 (or 21), and then level cities because "nothing can stop us now".
I also liked the novels, as they had many interesting characters.
The I discovered FR only to find a setting just like Middle Earth but perfectly tailored for roleplaying. So the main reason I love the Realms is because I can roleplay in a Middle Earth-like setting. One important note: it's a quite "standard" medieval fantasy system, without unnecesary "twists" like Dragonlace and so on.
The second reason is Waterdeep. Do you own City System? For those of you who don't know what it is, it's a 1st edition supplement with a *huge* map of the city, so big that it can cover an entire wall. Now, for those of you who talk about "feeling real", this map really makes it. Watching it remembers me why I love roleplaying.
The rest of you have summed up many more reasons.
Gee, The Realms are just great; hope wath they are perpetrating right now won't be so bad, though...
- The Seven Sisters, Elminster and Drizzt. And other heroes I learned to love in the various FR novels. They make Faerun a great place to read and to play. Their absence would leave a great emptiness in Faerun - and in my heart.
- If I play rangers or bards, I play them in the Realms.
The looks of the 2nd edition pictures where more proper, and more "real", since so many of you talk about that aspect.
Steampunk is for overeacted hormone-filled teens who can't discern between gaming with the Playstation and roleplaying.
Steampunk is for overeacted hormone-filled teens who can't discern between gaming with the Playstation and roleplaying.
While I'd not like to see the Realms turned into a Steampunk setting (and by the way, I don't think it will ever become one), this statement is IMO a bit of an exaggeration and generalization. If you take you take a look at the Iron Kingdoms setting, you will see that not all Steampunk worlds are for kids that confuse Playstation shooters with role playing. The conflict between magic and technology is an interessting theme for a campaign - if presented in a mature way. I realize that some people can't stand mixing the fantasy genre with a technologically advanced background - but this doesn't mean that those who do are overreacted teens.
While I'd not like to see the Realms turned into a Steampunk setting (and by the way, I don't think it will ever become one), this statement is IMO a bit of an exaggeration and generalization. If you take you take a look at the Iron Kingdoms setting, you will see that not all Steampunk worlds are for kids that confuse Playstation shooters with role playing. The conflict between magic and technology is an interessting theme for a campaign - if presented in a mature way. I realize that some people can't stand mixing the fantasy genre with a technologically advanced background - but this doesn't mean that those who do are overreacted teens.
Sorry, sorry sorry! It's a big typo, my fault, I was speaking about DUNGEONPANK.
I repeat, I was speaking about DUNGEONPUNK!
Nothing wrong with Steampunk, thanks for defending it anayway, Xaean! ;)
My PC's have lived long and glorious lives in the Realms
There is sooooooo much information yet there is always room to fit in your own.
I have ran numerous games and played numerous games in the Realms (20+ years). All of them have been different yet distinctly the Realms in flavor.
Ed Greenwood!!!!!!!!!
"Into the Forgotten Realms."
It's what D&D IS for me and many others. I know no other.
Want a game to run for years (real time) and years to come? Then you've got the Realms
Eastern flavor, Jungle theme, Snow and ice, Desert, Water, high magic, low magic, woodland, The Realms has eveything!
my list goes on and on...
Thanks for the post
My PC's have lived long and glorious lives in Eberron
There is sooooooo much information yet there is always room to fit in your own.
I have ran numerous games and played numerous games in Eberron (03+ years).
All of them have been different yet distinctly Eberron in flavor.
Keith Baker!!!!!!!!!
"Into Eberron."
It's what D&D IS for me and many others. I know no other.
Want a game to run for years (real time) and years to come? Then you've got Eberron
Eastern flavor, Jungle theme, Snow and ice, Desert, Water, high magic, low magic, woodland,
Eberron has eveything!
my list goes on and on...
:D
I love Eberron because:
My PC's have lived long and glorious lives in Eberron
There is sooooooo much information yet there is always room to fit in your own.
I have ran numerous games and played numerous games in Eberron (03+ years).
All of them have been different yet distinctly Eberron in flavor.
Keith Baker!!!!!!!!!
"Into Eberron."
It's what D&D IS for me and many others. I know no other.
Want a game to run for years (real time) and years to come? Then you've got Eberron
Eastern flavor, Jungle theme, Snow and ice, Desert, Water, high magic, low magic, woodland,
Eberron has eveything!
my list goes on and on...
:D
Your implication that Eberron is just a rip-off is very clever!
It's what D&D IS for me and many others. I know no other.
Want a game to run for years (real time) and years to come? Then you've got Eberron
Eastern flavor, Jungle theme, Snow and ice, Desert, Water, high magic, low magic, woodland,
Eberron has eveything!
my list goes on and on...
:D
Two differnt groups of Elves, neither of which is very good, with one living in a remote region and killing humans on sight if they enter their territory...
Dwarves having their own kingdom in the north east...
Strange magi-tech and self-aware war machines...
A pirate Kingdom ruled by some ancient evil...
The poor, misunderstood humanoids, once having proud cultures of their own with deep druidic traditions...
The much-feared strange people who live to the east...
A group of highly-religous zealots trying to spread their faith...
Just recovered from a horrible War, where the current nations were once a united group...
I could go on and on...
You do realize I'm describing Iron Kingdoms, right? ;)
Seriously, the guy that won that contest copy & pasted an already existing setting, and then took credit for it. He shouldn't be a hero - he should be sued.
Take a look at IK - it's the original and blows away the cheap imitation. :P
Thanks,
Hawkins
-Depth/richness/history/NPC's
-Classic fantasy (Tolkienesque/ low tech)
-High magic (Netheril, Imaskar, high magic :P)
-The size of the world. There are many very different nations and places.
I haven't seen any of these come under threat yet in the anounced changes for 4th edition.
I would kindly ask that we return to on-topic posts. (I a not pointing fingers at anyone, but it does seem to have derailed a bit.)
Thanks,
Hawkins
But I was showing MY love for the Realms, by belittleing all others. :P
Besides, my honor would not allow that scalllywag to get away with such slander. :fight!:
Back on Topic:
Why do I love the Realms? Because it was always all things to all people, and it had elements that could appeal to everyone. It didn't have a theme - it didn't need one - it encompassed all things at once. It was just like a REAL, living, breathing world.
Now it's turning into a vile undead version of itself, shambling about with it's cries for "Brains!"
The poor creature, little does it know it no longer has any......
Because of that public execution at Zhentil Keep that our party prevented fighting an uneven fight against the Zhentarim.
Because of Calimport and because of Myth Drannor.
Because it has been the place of so many adventures, a place that has seen a group of friends having fun together with a beer, an often improvised meal and a bunch of dice. Because so many good moments they had with their characters, because they don't want to see their characters dead, they don't want to drop their present campaign, because they want to stay and having fun in that place they know so well.
Dear WotC designers, I hope this seems enough.
- Before it was a campaign setting for me, it was a world; a world to be explored through the novels of many talented authors (along with some less-than-talented authors). While there are some authors who I will not read any more of the novels that they have written, there are others that I have (or am in the process of) reading (and owning) all of their Realms novels (and for some, many of their non-Realms novels). With these changes, not only with the campaign setting changed, so will the world that the novels take place in.
- Because I my love for the novels, I love many of the NPCs of the Realms. I do not often incorporate them into my Realms games because that does not work too well, but I love them all the same. It shatters my heart that so many of them are supposedly killed in the Spellplague.
Why do I love the Realms? Because it was always all things to all people, and it had elements that could appeal to everyone. It didn't have a theme - it didn't need one - it encompassed all things at once. It was just like a REAL, living, breathing world.
I can agree with that. "Scope" would be the right word for it, I think. That, and the rich history.
Now it's turning into a vile undead version of itself, shambling about with it's cries for "Brains!"
And it's still too early to say that...
Many people have said things I'm in total agreement with in this thread. So here's a hearty, ME TOO!
The only thing I might add is there was a plethora of appealingly strong female NPCs, most of whom will probably be dead or out of the picture in 4e (and no, I'm not just talking about the Seven Sisters, but rather characters the likes of Myrmeen Lhal, Alusair and Caladnei of Cormyr, Yanseldara of Elversult and her consort Vaerana, Queen Zaranda of Tethyr, and I could go on).
Hey Rich,
I appreciate all the stuff you put up with on the "Ask the Realms writers/designers thread," and how you dive right back in even when it is full of razor blades. I think one of the best way you and the other designated Realms designers could do is tell us why you love the Realms. By sharing this with us, you may be able to gain back our confidence in that you are trying to do what is best for the Realms.
Thanks,
Hawkins
I hope he bites. I do not know why they (the designers) seem so reluctant to tell us why they love the Realms.
I love the Realms because it was the one fantasy setting that while seeming so average and what you would expect from fantasy, it still differed, kept it flowing with a particular depth that made my heart sing.
I'm an athiest because none of the many religions that I've been presented with in life mean anything to me, they just seem like facades made by fools. However, in the Realms, religion is all too real in their world, the gods aren't figments of a groups imagination, they're actually there, and not just one or two, all of them! It just feels so wonderful to have a world where any god is just as real as the next.
Lastly, I LOVE the Realms because my girlfriend hates it. While not a valid reason, I suppose, I do often get quite annoyed with her rants of how the world is too much of a cliche, but in that I find myself only playing within the realms more. ^_^
But what I prefer it thing like the nine hell and abyss they got some real great devils & demons. The sucubus and erinyes are my favorite. I really like the drow matriarch way of dominant women wearing sexy leather outifit and the godess Eilistraee wearing nothing. That what I say that they got real good artwork in this world. I like dragons to and they got some great monster.
I like the computer game to and the novel.
It a real complete world it great you don't have to think to make one you just have to take this one and erase the thing you don't like and put in some little thing you like.
2. Baldur's Gate games.
I loved the Alias stories. I thought Wyvernspur was the best out of them all. Anyone remember those? I wish Grubb and Novac would write some more Alias novels. They gave a good feel of what the Realms were about.
- The Realms are very much what I wish Tolkien had done with Middle Earth. I loved the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion; but I always wished he had published more of the world in readable volumes (I do not approve of his son's publishing of so many of his notes in dry, unreadable volumes; though I have not read the Children of Húrin yet, I have heard mixed reviews about it from other people I trust who have).
The WizOs work fast, the WizOs are mighty.
Maybe we should send them some "Chris Perkins must be stopped" T-shirts. :P
Perhaps we can sway them to our ebil cause.
Or would that be "recruit them to our noble ends?" ;)
I love the proof of divine and arcane magic, that dieties make sense even outside the alignment system. Their dogmas make good character personality guides. I love the "cold war" of magic (re-)discovery.
The organisations in the realms give me the political backstabbing and skirmishing to drop at a moments notice on my unsuspecting players. Great derring-do ensues every session. Good places to unwind or retire too!
The layers of lore to peel away at your leisure make me come back the most. The stories in novels not so much, but most give a well described picture of the realms and can be true fountains of inspiration.
Oh, and Harper chicks. Gotta love those ^^
Like certain Half-Elf with a Moonblade :D
I love FR for its history, same with everyone else here, and its reality.
Also, dragons have a very deep and detailed history. I came to love DnD for its dragons, and FR feels best in that terms.
Lastly, I believe Thay ROCKS. I could make a list of one hundred Thayan Jokes and still go on (or at least I feel that way). Red Wizard Mishaps, anyone?
Please don't make the Realms into a 'Dungeonpunk' travesty of its former self. The Realms can be destroyed easily, turned into 'just another' generic fantasy world; destruction is always easy, nurturing hard. Designers, please make the hard choice.
Lastly, I believe Thay ROCKS. I could make a list of one hundred Thayan Jokes and still go on (or at least I feel that way). Red Wizard Mishaps, anyone?
You should start that thread...I am currently in a Thay game so it could be useful...
I loved it because it was a world where you could have a very real and direct impact.
Its a world where you can kill and create gods; become one, even.
Its a world where the possibilities are literally endless, between the underdark, the other continents, and the landmass of toril itself, there's a million things to do.
Simply put, I love it because its was so open and freeform. Want to conquer Cormyr? Get to it. Want to save the sword coast from civil war? Have at it.
Off topic, but worth mentioning, because it makes me feel warm and tingly inside when I say this kind of stuff:
The only thing I don't like about the realms is the "glass ceiling" effect that so many people adhere to when concerning the realms, the mary-sue-syndrome, plot-armor-wearing, character-shield-wielding, characters that you'll never, ever be bigger than no matter how much cyanide you pour onto their heads. They tried to fix that with 4.0, and did a good job of killing all the Mary Sues off (especially those pesky deities that are really critical to the game world); only problem is they forgot to kill the grand duke and duchess of Maria Susanas... nuff said
How regions help define pc's; alot of races (and subraces) have well detailed histories; danger lives on the Realmsian doorstep waiting to be found; the "points of light" (I'm sorry, I know some people don't like the word, but theres no point calling a triangle a square) like places like the Savage North;
The only thing I don't like about the realms is the "glass ceiling" effect that so many people adhere to when concerning the realms...
That's exactly it...people insist there is a problem when there really isn't one.
People need to take control of their own games--no character needs to be wearing plot armor if you don't want them to.
I know this is kinda hokey, but with the revelations of the Spellplague and other such things, I know that there has been quite a bit of outcry against the designers for "killing the Realms." I thought I would start this thread so we could tell the designers what we love about the Realms in hopes that they will read it and see if there is a way to accommodate the needs of both the Realms designers (who are Realms fans themselves, at least most of them) and the Realms fans who will be buying their product. Please be polite and do not be over-critical of what others post here, what makes it the Realms for them may (and often will) be different from what makes it the Realms for you.
I'll start (but this is by no means a complete list):
- Elminster and Drizzt; being first introduced to the Realms via the novels, these two characters are a large part of what has defined the Realms for me. Elminster is in many ways an Avatar of Ed, and I have always seen his presence in the Realms kind of comforting (even before I started playing in the Realms)
- The rich history of the Realms
- Mask and his schemes
- Having everyone ****** off at Cyric
- Kara-Tur; a bit of the campaign setting I always thought was under-represented but loved anyways
- More to come...
First game played was Eye of the Beholder by SSI
Then Played Curse of the Azure Bonds by SSI
then Played Secret of the Silver Blades by SSI
When the SSI Goldbox collection came out I bought it.
When I came across the Forgotten Realms Atlas in a used book store while killing time as my brother looked at the old video games reconized the names of towns and cities from the Computer Games and now knew where my favorite Fantasy world was set....lol (bioguht the Atlas that not only had maps of most of the Realms up to just past the Time of Troubles, but also "cliff notes" on the stories set in the Realms but also details of places of interest visited by the characters in the stories including layouts/blueprints
They tried to fix that with 4.0, and did a good job of killing all the Mary Sues off (especially those pesky deities that are really critical to the game world); only problem is they forgot to kill the grand duke and duchess of Maria Susanas... nuff said
Oh, and who would they be?
To me FR (like in real life ) is ALL about details, is about finding a THAT tomb at "The Red Knight Inn" basement in Asthakla. where it took the whole party to defeat a Basflemy, and the next day me having to single handlelly defend innocent people from two more Blasfemies while the rest of the group had their hands full with the rest of the "Freaking" undead horde in the Temple District.
-Is rescueing one of my comarade's father from jail for the crime of summoning a Water Elemental to rescue a gnome todleer from a building on fire
-Is killing that freaking Purple Worm that appered out of nowere in the middle of the Market.
-Is waking up in the middle of night because (for no aparent reason) I had Nightmares about this place in the in the north where thousands of Humans, Dwarves Elves Orc, and goblins killed each other for days to no end, AND having no time to think about it because we have to recue one of the Merchant Lords that was kidnaped by to REALLY powerful Ogre-Mages that just happened to gather an army of Giants and Hobgoblins and daclare war on Anm!
-And people, This is just Anm. One of those "Less liked places"That people happened to oversee.
-I Love those High Power NPC like El or Dritz, Because if I stumble with ANY of them " Iknow the $**** just hit the fan"
-I'dont think that sense of "epicness" (I know is not a real word) can't be done anywhere else. is ALL theat history behind it it makes a almost infine options of hooks and adventures......
or then again I'm just talking stupid
I love the realms because it does feel real.
I started off with Darkwalker on moonshae and the original campaign setting drifted away when products became difficult to pick up over in the UK but came back again a few years ago.
Seems to be a common refrain as far as gaming products go at the moment. Any explanation or have they just been ...disappearing? Looking for Magic cards for my Crowfiancee and me to play a bit more with (hers are still at her parents), we get told constantly that they've stopped carrying them, or that the new ones haven't come in yet...(the ones that came out in MAY, that is)...or...
I could see myself walking along the streets of Waterdeep, or Suzail or walking into any one of a hundred different inns that have been written about.
This to me is why the FR are more believable than Dragonlance etc. There is no one theme and plenty of scope for the DM's own imagination to come through (Crowfiancee once set a game in Rashemen based more on a Slavic theme, for example, and made up her own kind of witch-magic based on the intricate embroidery one finds out there; I didn't like it when I found the notes because she made me into the main villain...BUT...never mind, then again, I do have that kind of public persona...and I'm pretty thick-skinned).
For the most part I have enjoyed the changes to the Realms over the years, however I am holding on any opinion until I see the final product for 4e. So far I do not like most of what I have heard but I hope to be pleasantly surprised come August next year.
Worlds progress, change and develop. If you don't like what is published you are always free to develop the setting in a different way. It is time-consuming and demands more of an imagination, but when I was playing back in the 1970s all you could buy were the core rulebooks - you had to make your own settings (and I think the FR were someone's "homebrew" campaign at first). If you think of our own planet, the changes over the last 20 years since FR was first published have been phenomenal. I bet D&Ders in Thay are sitting round the table saying, "I don't want to buy the Earth books anymore, I stopped playing Earth when they got rid of the USSR and I've made Judaism the major religion rather than Christianity..."
Oh, and who would they be?
Oh, ya know... just a certain red-garbed ancient wizard, and his dual-wielding dark-skinned catamite.
Oh, ya know... just a certain red-garbed ancient wizard, and his dual-wielding dark-skinned catamite.
I don't see a problem with either of those characters, myself.
Oh, ya know... just a certain red-garbed ancient wizard, and his dual-wielding dark-skinned catamite.
I don't see a problem with either of those characters, myself.
That, and I do not see Drizzt as a "Mary-Sue." I have read most of RAS's non-Realms novels in addition to his Realms novels, and there are better applicants (Oliver de Burrows anyone?). Anyways I do not see peoples problems with "Mary-Sues" to begin with. When an author creates a "Mary-Sue," that means that they are putting that much more of themself into the story, and from my view that only enriches a story.
Anyways I do not see peoples problems with "Mary-Sues" to begin with. When an author creates a "Mary-Sue," that means that they are putting that much more of themself into the story, and from my view that only enriches a story.
My problem with Mary Sues is that they are so idealized (whether they are truly self-insertions or not) that they are friggin' annoying. The other characters in the story have no lives of their own, they are simply satellites that revolve around Mary Sue, and are concerned mainly (or only) with her. If Mary Sue makes a mistake, she is very quickly and easily forgiven, no matter how harmful that mistake might have been.
Mary Sue characters (and yes, that's a subjective thing to begin with) make me grit my teeth. I have no interest in reading about the author's personal wish-fulfillment fantasies--they are not entertaining. But like I said, not ALL Mary Sues are self-insertions, although many of them are.
I'm sorry, I haven't read the whole thread... but how is Drizzt a Mary Sue anyway? He was written originally to be Wulgar's sidekick...
A Mary-Sue is any character that a reader dislikes enough to want to insult at this point.
Drizzt gets the accusation because he's a moral paragon and never loses a fight. Mostly, people just want to throw poo on something popular for whatever reason is my take.
I actually rather like Drizzt, although he's not one of my favorites. And I do believe Mary Sues exist, although there seems to be no set definition for them that everyone will agree on.
On topic... I love pretty much everything about the Realms. My favorite area and the area I've spent the most time DMing and gaming in is the North (from Ardeep up through the Spine). I've also had some very fulfilling experiences around the Moonsea, in Chult and tomb-robbing in Mulhorand (very dicey work that ;)). To be perfectly honest though... the thing I love the most is how the incredible tapestry of the Realms just keeps growing. I love the change and progess the Realms has experienced over the years I've played.
Maybe I'm obsessive-compulsive and a purist/chauvinist, but I like my D&D to reflect D&D in all respects. I can't stand it when Lord/Lady Shinypants the Invincible does nothing but roll 20s all novel long, and when he does screw up, somehow his deity/DM fiat/the-powers-that-be manage to pull his/her happy ass out of it, pants still as shiny as ever, maybe even shinier.
Elminster is cut and dry cheddar. He is... "... the Chosen centuries old ex-Prince uber-archmage sleeping with the goddess of magic, with a king-in-exile washing his underwear." Doesn't matter how you do it, or what you do with it, your plans, thoughts, hopes, and ideas will never be bigger than this fogey. Ever.
As for Drizzt? I never cared for him either way (his stories were interesting, but mostly the same-old same-old to me, and too much of the Shinypats effect for my taste) until about 2002 - that's when I really started hating him - I picked up the Baldur's Gate/ToB expansion double-deal at Best Buy.
I think it was at the point where I'd killed him with a really well timed fireball from Edwin, taken his gear, and several in-game days later, had some fop of a wizard show up, steal his gear back, and literally tell me - the spawn of the Lord of Murder, conqueror of the criminal underworld of Amn, and general bane of all things good - that Drizzt was alive, would never ever stay dead for long, and there was nothing I could do about it.
This left me unarmed, and quite naked (in the middle of Waukeen's Promenade no less), and somewhat furious; after I got my hands on the FRCS I about popped my top, this dragon slaying, unstoppable, whirling beast of a drow, was, despite being statted out and equipped like a god, really nothing more than a mediocre fighter, and a good example of what you shouldn't do with cross-classing and an ECL. At least Elminster is respectable on paper. Regardless, whether anyone likes it or not, Drizzt is a Mary Sue in enough regards to earn him the title.
So there you have it, Elminster? I don't hate him so much as I see him as the king of all Mary Sues, and Drizzt, well, he has Mary Sue tendencies, directly interfered with my character, then died, then came back and directly interfered with my character, and I was told (essentially by the DM) there wasn't Jack I could do about it.
They are infallible, invincible, unstoppable no matter what you try to do to them, and, well, that makes them Mary Sues in my book.
Incidentally, before anyone says it: I don't use them in my games, El's tower is always locked, Drizzt is always missing, and if pressed, the explanation is simply: "He's off fighting some greater threat on the meta-plane of "The DM doesn't want to deal with that character." But just because I don't use them, and can easily ignore them doesn't mean I have to like them. I don't. But that's just me.
Back to on-topicness:
Another reason I love the realms: Spelljammer compatibility. Gotta love that spelljammer.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Drizzt does have Sueish qualities, but if you fight him in the BG games and take his stuff (which, IMO, is silly, because after all you can get much, much better stuff as the game goes on), you really get what you deserve when the wizard takes the stuff back.
They are infallible, invincible, unstoppable no matter what you try to do to them, and, well, that makes them Mary Sues in my book.
You do know that's not the definition of Mary Sue, right? Just sayin'.
Re: Drizzt in the BG games--you really have to provoke Drizzt into fighting you, so I don't see how you can fairly say that he "interfered" with your character.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Drizzt does have Sueish qualities, but if you fight him in the BG games and take his stuff (which, IMO, is silly, because after all you can get much, much better stuff as the game goes on), you really get what you deserve when the wizard takes the stuff back.
Right as you are, none of that has anything to do with the fact that he existed, I killed him, he didn't stay dead, and it was rubbed in my face.
You do know that's not the definition of Mary Sue, right? Just sayin'.
Yep, but I did explain my stance above the short, sentence-long explanation, and so, if you'd care to read and quote the more verbose explanation as opposed to the short summary, you'd find yourself going "Oh hey, I know what he meant and not what he said in a short sentence right after he said what he meant! Gee willikers!" Ok, you may or may not say "gee willikers" but you'll sure go "hmmmm" in your own way. As the almighty Zimmer once said, I guarantee it.
Right as you are, none of that has anything to do with the fact that he existed, I killed him, he didn't stay dead, and it was rubbed in my face.
As if resurrection wasn't available.
Yep, but I did explain my stance above the short, sentence-long explanation, and so, if you'd care to read and quote the more verbose explanation as opposed to the short summary, you'd find yourself going "Oh hey, I know what he meant and not what he said in a short sentence right after he said what he meant! Gee willikers!" Ok, you may or may not say "gee willikers" but you'll sure go "hmmmm" in your own way. As the almighty Zimmer once said, I guarantee it.
I read the whole thing in the first place, and disagree.
At least you guys aren't talking about 4e. :P
I dislike Drizzt, because he is one-dimensional. He is a DROW, for Chrisakes... he should lose his temper at least once in awhile! And all that introspection... I have NOT read ANY italicized text in ANY RAS novel since the one with Wulfgar peering throught he bars (can't think of the name). I used to like the character as he was originally, but now he is so filled with angst he should just slit his wrists already.
And Wulfgar? CONAN with angst....
I like Cattie-brie (sp?), and Bruennor. The cat's cool, too.
Besides the italicized text, I also skip over all the fight scenes (we know how it turns out, right? The guys alive a hundred years from now... sheesh). The funny part is, I have read EVERY RAS FR novel... and I can get through them in about 20 minutes now. :D
I used to like Artemis as well, but he seems to be going the Drizzt route and becoming and angsty anti-hero. oh well.....
At least he's not a goody-two-shoes like the Dark Elven choir boy.
Right as you are, none of that has anything to do with the fact that he existed, I killed him, he didn't stay dead, and it was rubbed in my face.
I recall one of the developers (I think David Gaider) saying that in BG2, you have three choices when you meet Drizzt: recruit his help against Bodhi, don't recruit his help against Bodhi, or kill him and use his equipment against Bodhi. After Bodhi is defeated, his equipment (if you killed Drizzt) gets taken back by the game through the wizard.
Yeah, it is rubbed in your face, but in some ways that's a good thing. It's a reminder that Bhaalspawn or no, you can't run roughshod over the Realms and expect other people not to push back. And that applies to not only the CRPGs, but also D&D settings in general.
EDIT: Sorry, Hawkins--just read your post. But what I said applies to the Realms as a whole.
EDIT: Sorry, Hawkins--just read your post. But what I said applies to the Realms as a whole.
No problem RF! I know you weren't trying to derail the thread.
No problem RF! I know you weren't trying to derail the thread.
Hey now, neither was I, c'mon now, alls I did was state my peace, and ten posts later I decided I had to defend my position - cut me some slack here! Anywho, as a closer, I'd say that my definition of Mary Sue is just as valid as anyone else's, and until Websters makes a attempt to catalog it, will remain so.
Anywho, sorry for that, but moving on.
Another thing I love about the realms:
It is a magic-rich environment, literally teeming with endless possibilities when it comes to the type of magic scrolls, equipment, and miscellanea you're liable to find, your greatest treasure generally comes with its own unique history and purpose, and maybe a huge group of people who want to get their hands on it as well (Gith Silver Swords/Nether Scrolls, anyone?) and will go to no ends to get it back/from you. Tends to make for more interesting gameplay if you ask me.
Uh, no, I think there are perfectly valid reasons not to like Drizzt, or any other character, whether such a character is popular or not.
Disliking him or not; a Mary Sue is a rather loaded accusation that has come to mean a lot of things to a lot of people but it's not R.A. Salvatore's self-insert unless you think there's a black elf Ranger struggling to get out of him.
But yes, fans can dislike him for any number of reasons. Frankly, go ahead for you. For me, I just tend to leave him out of my games. I have characters I prefer to use than him, such as Kyriani
:-)
But, I did have a player once ask if his 16th level Swordsage could have a friendly duel with Drizzt.
I said, "You won two out of three falls."
I like the Realms because they're a fantasy kingdom that combines the niceties of Tolkien's Middle Earth with the best part of my other favorite fantasy series (Robert Howard especially). Most of all, I'm impressed with the fact that the Forgotten Realms has managed to be very much a unique thing of its own while allowing me to run whatsoever type of game that I might want within its ranks.
The Time of Troubles was my first exposure game and it's still coated me for a lot of my games. I always loved using the Gods of Conan as a model for their activities. I.e. little more than powerful Fiends and Angels. It's something that I've shyed away from since then since it results in a bad weakening of them as encounters.
Still, cut me some slack, I was twelve years old at the time.
I've returned to the Realms on many occasions since then with the majority of my player characters deeds always adding to the Realm as before (all previous player characters are canon). It's just a such a diverse and wonderful setting.
But in order, what I love most is as follows...
* The Comic books (Someone needs to get these into a TPB series)
* Elminster
* Kyriani
* Drizzt Do'Urden series
* Arilyn Moonblade
* Alusair
* Baldur's Gate
* The Zhentariam
* The Moonshaes
* Waterdeep
But don't feel bad, I've felt outclassed by a lot of posters here.
"YOU DON'T OWN CLOAK AND DAGGER!? BLASPHEMER!"
I recommend Song and Swords by Elaine Cunningham and the Drizzt Novels.
But don't feel bad, I've felt outclassed by a lot of posters here.
"YOU DON'T OWN CLOAK AND DAGGER!? BLASPHEMER!"
Already said in my post that I was gonna check out Cunningham and that Drizzt was what broke me in. But thanks, I'll check out The Pirate King when it comes out next year--I haven't read that one yet. :P
I like that I know a lot about the Realms, too.
I like the depth of history to the setting. It allows me as a Realms Dungeon Master a great many opportunities to adapt the setting's history around my campaign, so that my campaign has depth to it as well.
This last is something I've found that players always want more of, and that they remember long after a campaign comes to a close.
I'm looking forward to what the 4E Realms Campaign Guide has to offer.
Re: Drizzt in the BG games--you really have to provoke Drizzt into fighting you, so I don't see how you can fairly say that he "interfered" with your character.
I'm not disagreeing with you that Drizzt does have Sueish qualities, but if you fight him in the BG games and take his stuff (which, IMO, is silly, because after all you can get much, much better stuff as the game goes on), you really get what you deserve when the wizard takes the stuff back.
LOL
I remembered creating a Hacked Spell called "Summon Drizzt" when goofing off with that hacked up add on for Baulder's Gate Series ("Shadows of the Sword Coast"?)
Sometimes cast the spell 5 times and have 5 Drizzts fighting on my side...lol
Don't remember actually my PC talking with Drizzt in the game though I only played through the official stuff once before wondering off to hacked custom games, but was as indifferent about the Drow as I was about the Wizard dressed in red that would suddenly show up.
The Game was about my/your PC's adventure and my/your "PCs Choices" with the Wizard and the Drow as part of the underlying Story of what the Bhalspawn's that happen to be raised by a Harper will do with the potential power.....not about killing "Mary Sues" or Iconic Figures that would be used as guides to the PCs who are the real Heros in a D&D campaign as oppose to when they are the Heros in the Novels.
People tend to forget that Novels in the Forgotten Realms and D&D Campaigns in the Forgotten Realms are 2 separate things and the Heros are the PCs in a D&D campaign while the novels tell the Stories of the npc Heros doing there thing when they must.
Could there be a Need for a Munchkin like Eliminster or Drizzt in a D&D Campaign intended for a group of PCs beyond Council? Maybe if the PC Heroes are utterly destroyed, followed by a even more power band of heroes who fail, then an even more powerful band of Heroes who fail, and once all resources fail and there is nobody else then, and only then, the Iconic figures might have to deal with the threat personally between Breakfast and a 3 o'clock meeting.....but the Campaign "fades to black" when the PC heroes die so nobody would see that far past the PC's untimely death,yes?
Maybe I'm old fashioned but my PC's rarely die. And I have no real experience with high level play, so Major NPC's have never been a problem, and I make up all my own villains within the major groups of the realms. Low level play makes my parties more story oriented when overcoming challenges, and usually it resolves with several funny twists I never expected.
LOL
I remembered creating a Hacked Spell called "Summon Drizzt" when goofing off with that hacked up add on for Baulder's Gate Series ("Shadows of the Sword Coast"?)
I remember a cheat console command in that game that does the same thing! XD And one that summons a hostile Drizzt. I would spawn legions and legions of the two Drizzt-types and have them fight each other to the death!!! (...and spawn in more when one side or the other seemed to be winning, just to keep thing balanced.
)If you really want to see Drizzt suffer, though, spawn in a legion of allied Drizzts and have them all fight Tethtoril in Candlekeep. Everytime anyone attacks Tethtoril, they are instantly fried by a bolt of lightning (I can only assume that the gods are protecting Tethtoril, or that he has the mother of all magic cloaks, because he doesn't actually do anything). You'll leave a heap of dead drow on dead in the dirt... and then you'll die, but man, it was fun while it lasted...
Don't remember actually my PC talking with Drizzt in the game though I only played through the official stuff once before wondering off to hacked custom games, but was as indifferent about the Drow as I was about the Wizard dressed in red that would suddenly show up.
In the original Baldur's Gate Drizzt is merely an off-to-the-side cameo or optional boss (the latter if you opt to attack him, or, I think, if your character is an elf named "Drizzt" with low reputation). You'll find him someplace to the southwest of Beregost, engaged in battle against a ridiculous amount of gnolls. Ascent to aid him in battle... then watch and be amazed as he puts the gnolls to the meat-grinder single-handedly anyway. XD
I have thrown down the gauntlet. I sent the following PM to Rich Baker to see if he would bite:
I hope he bites. I do not know why they (the designers) seem so reluctant to tell us why they love the Realms.
Its because they never truly loved the Realms at all...they liked isolated portions and aspects of the Realms, but they simply didn't care about it as an ongoing, living world. They didn't understand that the accumulated history and flavor of the Realms was always MUCH more important than mere mechanics. Instead of viewing their role as the lucky caretakers of something wonderful and special, they viewed it as an opportunity to make a name for themselves by selfishly re-imagining the Realms into something that THEY preferred. Reading the responses contained in this thread, they recognize that their divergent answers would reveal just how far removed they were from the Realms most devoted fanbase (as if their previous words, actions and the whole "points of light" imposition did not already do that!), thereby removing the benefit of a doubt many fence-sitters would have given their professed efforts to retain as much as possible of the Realms flavor in light of exigent circumstances. Since that benefit of a doubt results in fewer people badmouthing their product before its launch, as well as the likely purchase of the new FRCS by the fence-sitters, they stand to lose economically if more people realize what is really going on. Not posting an answer on this thread is therefore the most rational thing for them to do.
That said, casual fans and any people who have not already purchased hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of flavor material (most of which had remained relevant through three different Editions and twenty-five years!) over the years would be foolish to join me in my personal boycott of all Fourth Edition material...it will probably make for a decent game, so you might as well give it a shot. I just hope my cathartic diatribe will enable you to understand why so many Realms fans are extremely bitter and angry. For everyone else, GothicDan is right; we were ruthlessly disregarded, all further flavor material for the REAL Forgotten Realms we love is forever denied to us and there's nothing we can do about it except take our ball (i.e. money) and go home.
First and foremost are the memories. I was introduced to the Realms through SSI's goldbox game: Pool of Radiance. What struck me as different from the start was the content within the journal. It contained the history of Phlan which immediately brought the setting to life despite the CGA graphics.
And that's how I continue to love the Realms. It is both complete (with so much detail, history, and unique characters) yet incomplete with adventures popping up constantly in need of heroes.
I was amused to read the posts on this thread; comforted to see my reasons for loving the Realms reflected in so many fellow gamers; entertained by the rants against Drizzt (and El some). My personal dislike of Drizzt actually enforces my love of the Realms. In some campaign settings, if there is a hero you don't like -- the world pretty much falls apart. Or you have no standout heroes to begin with, nothing to aspire to or compete with. The Realms fills these gaps with many, many options for the DM and player.
I love the Realms because of the flood of contributions to the setting. It is evident from some of the excellent content produced that great designers have a love for the Realms. Most notably -- Ed Greenwood. My hat off to you sir for making such an enduring campaign setting.
Because of how potent and durable the Realms are, I think it will survive the Spellplague, the deity musical chairs, the slaughter of innocent Chosen, and other wanton upheaval.
Hmm, of all the Companions of the Hall, I think Wulfgar has been the one who's been developed the most as a character. I've noticed that many Drizzt fans seem not to like him, but I've enjoyed his story arc.
Its probably close between him and Catti-Brie
I can run any plot line I like there, my most recent themes have been civilization vs nature, warlords vs republic, slavery vs freedom fighters.
And I can fit all of that in Turmish with NO trouble.
I love the Realms because if I decided I wanted to run a different type of game it'd be a cakewalk to figure out where to put the campaign.
I love the Realms because there is always a reason why and there's always room to develop the reason why.
I love the Realms because it feels like it can actually work, that the economic systems are reasonable enough, that the political powers are balanced enough, that the super powers are balanced enough.
I love the Realms because it's easy for me to set up a house of cards that the PCs will knock over and then clean up the mess.
And no matter how many times I go back to the box, each piece tastes just a little different.
It was where I had my 1st level characters run up against a pair of Wyrmling Black Dragons. It was where I nearly TPKed the group with a Mind Flayer 'assassin.' It was where the party Wizard started his own magic school, and wrestled with the dilemna of one the teachers he recruited being evil. It was the setting where I had the party fight a group of Kobolds who were infesting an ancient elven temple of a diety that would much later come to be called Lolth (the temple predated her fall). The same setting where the party had to rescue the Mind Flayer from those years back and recruit his aid against a Githyanki invasion force! (The enemy of my enemy is still a creepy brain-eating squid-person!)
As for the side-topic;
At this point, I'm not sure if any character perfectly fits all of the many different definitional 'requirements' to be called a Mary-Sue. Drizzt doesn't come nearly as close as Elminster, from the definitions I see online. (There'd be a heck of a lot more half-Drow running around if he did, if yanno what I mean, and some of them would be half-Chosen as well, since Mary Sue Drizzt would have been making the rounds of the Seven Sisters...)
But since we aren't allowed to use words unless they apply in every possible definition, I think it's safer to say exactly *nothing* about Drizzt.
I can say that I met Rob Salvatore (who lives in my area) once, and I had no idea who he was, and he showed me some manuscript pages, and I helpfully pointed out that he was spelling Lolth wrong. /facepalm
the Realms up. I just wanted to let you new (and original) posters know that it has warmed my heart to read your responses.I love the realms because of our very own original stories is set in a very much alive campaign world..alive in the sense that there are certain elements of the canon FR that enlivens our gaming experience just by the mere fact that it is different from my home brew FR. As someone have pointed out somewhere in these threads, canon FR serves as a basis for my own FR campaign.
I can diverge a little bit from what is accepted as 'true' in the realms but I have no fear since I can always look back and trace where I made the difference and it's all because canon FR is there.
Sadly, with 4E FR coming i really don't know how to go on with my campaign world since almost everything i thought or conceived to be true about the forgotten realms is about to be thrown out the window...
Oh well.
I think I'll continue with my Remembered Realms rather than the new Forgotten Realms. :P
The WizOs work fast, the WizOs are mighty.
And with a few more adjustments to the machine, their power will be mine and I mean to bring the boards to thier knees!
I mean, ummmm, yeah I like the realms because they are ummmm.. expansive..... and ummm detailed.
I've really liked the Realms from the get-go, bought the grey box and I've been a fan ever since. Can't put a finger on it, but I've enjoyed it through 3 editions.
!!!!!!!!18D
I think the realms enjoys so much success because it is so horribly flawed. This is why you will have great products fail and lesser products continue. Firefly was golden. People had only good things to say about it. You can get into great and lengthy discussions over the virtues and faults of lesser series. This process causes people to spread the word and to invest more energy into the series. Something that knows exactly what it is is less engaging then something that is not quite defined. By that lack of definition you have untold possibility for what it may become. We know exactly who Bob Dylan is but Elvis is an icon who will live forever because Elvis is an empty vessel that everyone can fancy how they wish. This is to say that the Realms as a whole does not have a story or idea that is predominant and so it is left to each individual DM to figure out what that predominant story or idea is. If you look at any one region you will find that the region will make sense, but if you pull out and look at the Realms in total you quickly find that the realms does not make sense. This is due to it being built in a piece meal fashion over the course of years. The accumulated effect of all this is that the Realms is a campaign setting composed of campaign settings plopped down next to one another. This is fine and indeed makes an accidental incident of truth in advertising. It is called the Forgotten REALMS not Forgotten REALM. Any given DM does not need to use the whole world. All he needs to do is find a portion of the world that makes sense and build his game around that. The net effect of that is that the realms is whatever the gamers want it to be. I play in and enjoy the Realms, but the gravitational center of my game is the Vast. That is my Realm. What constitutes my Realm is a far cry from the DM who builds his game around Tethyr, Thay, or Waterdeep. But we have a map of the world so we can see how each others Realm sits in relation to each other and we all call it collectively the Realms. This is why I say that half of running the Realms is choosing which have of the Realms to disregard. As it stands I have so altered the Realms that I play in as to recognize vast swaths of it unrecognizable to others. I have done so because I didn't like THOSE parts of the Realms. Others have done the same. This is as it should be.
Having articulated all of this I can now say very definitely that I do not love the Realms as written, but that I do love that the Realms was, and continues to be, so easily fashionable to my purposes.
Things can be cooking in the Anauroch, but you're all the way in Cormyr gettings leads on some adventure that will take you to the Underdark. There are so many villains and heroes to choose from, or you can create your own. You can follow any god you please, and no matter what you do, it will always have an effect on those around you be it small or on a much grander scale.
I think it's the magic of the Realms that appealed to me the most (as I'm sure it did with most of you), and I actually wrote up a concept of one of my original characters (who is Earth-born and raised) coming to the Realms for the first time. It was all pretty complex but my friends and I enjoyed the resulting story of mixing a character from Earth and dropping them into Faerun.
I love the characters, but (if you couldn't tell from my name), am an avid fan of villains, particularly the Shades. :D
But thanks to 4E, I suppose I'll have to scrap that Earth-mingling idea (or maybe run it by Ed and see what he thinks of it.)
But thanks to 4E, I suppose I'll have to scrap that Earth-mingling idea (or maybe run it by Ed and see what he thinks of it.)
Why should you change an idea you're interested in just because 4E is coming out? You don't have to adopt the new rules, or the changes to the Realms setting.
It seemed very believable because of the way many of the regions appeared to be based upon actual real countries.
I also really liked who it was spread out - For some reason I thought that was perfect
It also seems to be a living, breathing world.
And, of course, it fits my preferences (from say, Eberron, with its Mecha etc.)
-Since I was about nine or ten, I've been playing tabletop RPG games. And, of course, before that, I was playing video game RPGs, such as Final Fatasy II (IV) and Final Fantasy III (VI) on the SNES. The game I played was a game called CHILL. The campaigns were usually set in the present in local neighborhoods. At some point (by this point, I was probably 14 or 15), my friend and I suggested we play a CHILL campaign, but in the past. We wanted to be Samurai. So, we had a campaign set in the past, with Samurai, Vikings, and something else. In that game, though, swords and other "primitive" weapons didn't do much damage, since the system assumed that characters would be in the present. At some point, someone suggested that we switch the CHILL game to a D&D campaign. The rest, as they say, is history.
What got Lord Karsus into the Forgotten Realms:
-It was mostly by accident. My step-father purchased all of the 3e Core rulebooks, and shortly after, purchased Faiths and Pantheons. This was completely by accident. He was looking for Deities and Demigods (The Core deity book), but picked up Faiths and Pantheons instead. I browsed through it, and liked what I saw. But, for the most part, that was it. Some time later, an unrelated event happened. I was at my cousin's house, and he was in the process of building a free website from Angelfire. I don't remember what it was for, but he asked for a password. I looked around, and chose the first book on his bookshelf that I read: Homeland. I then noticed that the book had the same 'Forgotten Realms' logo as Faiths and Pantheons. I picked up the book, and asked if I could borrow it. I did, read it, and become fascinated with the Forgotten Realms. For my birthday present a few weeks later, my parents got me the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and thus, Lord Karsus was born... :D
That is what I like about the Realms. That and the fact that drow in the Realms are awsome:D
Big topic. Ill focus on metagame/design:
* It felt real.
* Its ok to be good-guys.
* Its ok to go nuts with gods, demon lords, planes and flashy magic.
* Its ok to create stories about innkeepers, merchants and barwenches.
* Bards, druids and rangers have a place in the realms.
* Rich history and details that keeps throwing surprises at me.
* There are always more bits of lore that can fit into a plot, if I dig deep enough.
* Everything 2e has a place in the realms.
* Ed Greenwood
* Dedicated writers
* The good scribes at Candlekeep
* Minsc & Boo
Seconded.:D
I got into the Realms about 3 years ago when I started playing Neverwinter Nights. The complexity, rich lore, and detail of the story, characters, and danger was like nothing I had ever seen in fantasy before. I soon started reading the Drizzt books and I immediatly got hooked. It all went up from there.
You do realize I'm describing Iron Kingdoms, right? ;)
Seriously, the guy that won that contest copy & pasted an already existing setting, and then took credit for it. He shouldn't be a hero - he should be sued.
Take a look at IK - it's the original and blows away the cheap imitation. :P
Iron Kingdoms, isn't that now a miniatures game called Warmachine? I saw it and, kinda looked like a ripoff of Warhammer to me.
The games. I came in fairly late, but games like Baldur's Gate II - still my favourite - and Icewind Dale, among others, make me feel for this setting. Care about it. Want to learn more about it, and the people who populated it. That is a big thing, caring about a fantasy setting. To hear the narrator in IWD II details the exploits of the characters, to listen to Keldorn, world-weary but resolute, detail battles past and dangers present, and to have my characters triumph over a greater foe at world's end - that made me feel like I was part of something greater, and that I was doing it right.
The lore. Yes, there is a lot of it - a lot of it indeed. Which, for a setting tens of thousands of years of history, is how it should be. Perhaps some of it was conflicted or changed, but that helps as well as harms - in the darkness of the past, many things are obscurred and as a DM, player or enthusiast you can work to find the truth. I have a feel for history, and the Realms offers a cornucopia of it. Layer after layer of history can be uncovered by the players, but it is more than bare facts; it is the fossilized lives, emotions, and dreams of millions. What is it like to walk through the streets of Myth Drannor and, with the sun glittering just so amidst the ruins, find an old engagement ring? What is it like to find, deep underground, in a gorge so secreted away that not even the Underdark beasts know it, a marker with ancient runik script detailing the bravery of dwarven warriors battling an otherworldly foe before elves with obsidian-black skin and hearts darker yet plunged their empire into ruin. What is it like, in the libraries of Haalrua, to converse with a book holding the soul of an archmage that spoke with, trained and even got drunk with Karsus himself?
The feel. On one hand, it is a high fantasy setting, and you know what? It's doing it right. The reason why the classics got to be classics in the first place is because they were doing it right. Now, different settings have their own feel, and I can appreciate it as well - but every now and then, as I read FR novels, play the games or run the campaign, I get a feeling that is part nostalgia, part anxiety, and part satisfaction. It's the feeling of both belonging to that world and to having it belong to you. It's a feeling much like love, I guess. On the other, it is the RealmS. Plural. Just like the real world, there is no one feeling, theme, or mood that encapsulates it; the different regions can be like settings on their own. Lantan is not the North, Damara is not Unther, and Mulhorand is not Rashemen. Every part is different, and every part has something special to offer the players.
The people. In fact, I like that the PCs aren't the only thing that matter; it means that all other characters in the world are real people, not just props to the Chosen Ones' unavoidable ascendance. It means that you can have the NPCs as your equals. It means they matter. Instead of a sketch with your characters on a canvas, you have a complex, everchanging panorama. Yes, my characters can come to dominate a part of it, maybe even all of it - but they would have to earn it. If they want to do something no one has ever done before, they will have to be better than anyone who tried. If they want to be the masters of magic, the sword, or stealth, or the gods themselves, they better be ready to challenge the best an entire world has to offer. Until then, maybe they will meet a robed stranger crossing a bridge in Everlund, in the bazaars of Zakhara, or the busy streets of Mulhorand, and never know him - or her.
The Realms are a challenge to play or to run. If you accept it, and best it, the rewards are worthwhile.
Because it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
Of course... it could just be gas... :embarrass
Iron Kingdoms, isn't that now a miniatures game called Warmachine? I saw it and, kinda looked like a ripoff of Warhammer to me.
The miniatures game, perhaps, but its only similar to the Empire faction from Warhammer in that regard (thats the only one with steam-tech).
The setting itself is very original and flavorful. The original source book was called Lock 'N' Load and the Witchfire Trilogies. Thats where Baker got his ideas. Then later, after the miniatures game really took off, they turned Lock 'N' Load into a full-blown setting called Iron Kingdoms. The only differences between the two settings is that Baker took L'N'L in one direction, and Privateer Press in another, but when you break it all down, you realize just how similar the two settings are.
Eberron went for a more 'Cinematic' feel, whereas Iron Kingdoms went for more of a 'grunge' feel.
So was Iron Kingdoms created by Baker as well?
But even the placement of certain factions is a little too coincidental.
Plus, both focus around big 'robot-types'. In fact, the Warforged Titan is a clone of an IK Steamjack.
Steampunk?
-A genre. When in doubt, wiki.
-A genre. When in doubt, wiki.
Baka! I know what steampunk is:P
I'm asking if Iron Kingdoms is steampunk.
Baka! I know what steampunk is:P
I'm asking if Iron Kingdoms is steampunk.
-Don't baka me. Last time you used a single word, followed by a question mark, you didn't know what was going on (Lavos). So, I don't want to hear it.
Everything I love about the realms died in the spellplague. I am a bitter, angry little man now.
-I'm sure there are plenty of things that still exist. What things, specifically?
Everything I love about the realms died in the spellplague. I am a bitter, angry little man now.
The Spellplague made you shorter?
Thats weird, it had the exact oposite effect on the Halflings...
;) :P
And IK isn't really pure Steampunk - the tech is really magic-based, and they have quite a few really cool concepts I love to steal - like Necrotite; a strange, faintly green-glowing mineral that can only be mined from fields where great tragedy (War, plague, etc) occurred (and blood was spilled).
Its basically a physical manifestation of despair, and you can use it to power all sorts of Necromantic nastiness.
The 'Artificers' there, LK, are more like the ones you envisioned, or even like the ones I was imagining - strange, arcane machines that rely on magical power sources (similar, I suppose, to Eberron, which is another Magitech setting).
The stuff works really well for Imaskar or Raumather, or even certain parts of Netheril (the Thaluds fit in nicely with the whole 'sentient Arcane Construct' thing).
18DELTA :P
The Spellplague made you shorter?
Thats weird, it had the exact oposite effect on the Halflings...
maybe he wuz talkin' about a specific part
1) The colorful NPC's: Mirt the Moneylender; Durnan the Wanderer; Shaeryl, Mourngrim, and Skothar Amcathra; etc.... (I'm not talking about the Uber NPC's that sucked the life out of the setting here)
2) Mystra: Number two on the all-time list of 'shortest reign by a deity ever'. The last incarnation of Mystra lived from the Time of Troubles until the start of the Spellplague. What was that? Maybe 25 years? (Number one on the list is Karsus, who was a god for all of thirty seconds before he turned to stone)
3) Undermountain: They beat up Halaster and took all his stuff. What is Waterdeep going to be like without its favorite insane wizard to cause trouble?
-Don't baka me. Last time you used a single word, followed by a question mark, you didn't know what was going on (Lavos). So, I don't want to hear it.
baka, baka, baka, baka....:P
Thanks for the explanation MT. Setting dosen't really sound like its for me, but I often like putting high-tech magical civilizations in a setting's past to give it a different kind of mystery. Kinda like with Blackmoor in Mystara or even Thundarr The Barbarian's ruined Earth.
-I've never seen Thundarr the Barbarian referenced so much in one single place before. :P
I love Thundar
Ride!!!
"With his fabulous Sunsword..."
Do you think some guy from the East Village - or possibly SanFran - wrote that line? :P
Bel
Most other worlds have a war, and then everything changes (Eberron, GH, Scarred lands, etc). So all the plots on those worlds tend to be dealing with the aftermath of the latest war.
-This is because the Forgotten Realms don't have an overbearing, "oppressive" metaplot. There's a just whole bunch of lesser plots, none of which are..."key" to the setting as a whole.
the names!
alustriel! laeral! alusair! silverymoon! tethyr! they are all beautiful to say and beautiful to look at.
IMO, forgotten realms has the best names of any published setting. :D
messy
Curse Thundarr! Damn him to the Netherpits.
Bel
I assume you're one of the many evil wizards that he has already damned to the Netherpits;)
why do i love the realms?
the names!
-An interesting way to look at it.
Shandril Shessair. Now that's a name with pep!
Indeed!
I assume you're one of the many evil wizards that he has already damned to the Netherpits;)
No, but it's a long sad story that I won't go into here.
Bel
I love the realms because, in my opinion, it is the setting that has always embodied everything Dungeons and Dragons is all about. It has (or had, as God knows what is going to actually survive the 4th edition
) all aspects from medieval fantasy that you could possibly want, plus powerful and compelling characters, scheming villains, clashes of gods, a multitude of cultures and racial tensions, just to name a few.As an interesting footnote, one of my first DMs discouraged me from trying the setting, he said it was just "too much heroics" for his taste. He was a Dragonlance DM, mind you.
And, of course, there's the gods. They scheme, backstab, meddle, and set their churches against those of their rivals. Some (Cyric, Mystra) felt two-dimensional to me, but most were vibrant.
A few other things:
-Waterdeep
-Halruaa
-Bane. There's a guy who can do evil properly
Some (Cyric, Mystra) felt two-dimensional to me, but most were vibrant.
-Cyric was probably one of the most multi-faceted NPCs out there. How many times did he change his allegiances? And, the reasons for doing so? And so on and so on.
Bel
-Cyric was probably one of the most multi-faceted NPCs out there. How many times did he change his allegiances? And, the reasons for doing so? And so on and so on.
For me, personally, he felt flat and almost cartoonish. It's the generic, "Some men just want to watch the world burn" thing. I could just never get "into" Cyric.
I much prefer my evil deities as moody tyrants.;)
That's not necessarily a bad thing for a lesser god, but when one of the major gods of a setting is that unstable and still manages to go on...*shrug* It just doesn't do it for me. But in the long run, my love for the Realms far offset that.
But when Bhaal wanted you dead, you were dead. That's called doing your job properly, and I can appreciate a good work ethic.
:heehee
The geography was interesting, the ruins and empires were interesting, magic was interesting but what really got me were the stories about the people.
I liken it to my lingering affection for London. Sure the city is grand and some of the buildings are stunning and it would be just as much London if nobody I know lived there... but it wouldn't feel the same.
I am very interested in where the novels will go now that most of the supporting cast are... indisposed.
Could you kindly keep to the purpose of the thread, and take your discussions to PM?
Thanks,
Hawkins
LK and Macky,
Could you kindly keep to the purpose of the thread, and take your discussions to PM?
Thanks,
Hawkins
killjoy